Post by: jrebel on May 13, 2022, 10:49:01 AM
I am not a gunsmith, but I have been around guns for quite a while and seen the good and the bad. I think I know a thing or two....so my questions are:
Should the bedded action have any bedding in contact with the barrel. This rifle is bedded approx 1" past the threaded shank of the rifle. It is a carbon fiber barrel and the steal before the carbon is not free floated. Is this normal? Could this be the cause of it's inaccuracy? Custom loads with ES of 8 and SD of 4.4 will not shoot sub 3 MOA at 100 yards. GARBAGE.....
Thanks for you input.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 13, 2022, 11:01:03 AM
Post by: jrebel on May 13, 2022, 11:23:16 AM
I think many bedding jobs go about an inch forward of the action on the chamber. Seen a few go about as far as the chamber might extend.
That's pretty much what this is.....the length of the chamber. I don't know what to make of it.....I'm confident in my reloading and this rifle is garbage. This is the second rifle this friend has had built...semi custom....that doesn't shoot well. Two different smiths, two different actions and both no good. I'm not sure what to make of it...
I can tell you this.....my factory savages will shoot circles around these semi customs and for 1/2 to 1/3 the price. Frustrating....but I'm not throwing another grain of powder at this rifle. :bash: :bash:
Post by: Mtnwalker on May 13, 2022, 11:56:57 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 13, 2022, 12:58:26 PM
Your “Custom loads” aren’t made for that rifle.
Have you tried developing for that rifle?
A rifle can be a tack driver or a scattergun depending on the ammo.
Post by: hunter399 on May 13, 2022, 01:03:04 PM
Bedding is normal. You sure its not the scope?I was thinking same.
Your “Custom loads” aren’t made for that rifle.
Have you tried developing for that rifle?
A rifle can be a tack driver or a scattergun depending on the ammo.
What bullet
What caliber.
Powder
Coal
Barrel harmonic is not good or something.
Muzzle break,free floated.
Spill all the beans!!!!!
Post by: Buckjunkie on May 13, 2022, 01:14:35 PM
Developing loads is expensive and components are hard to find, so spending more money getting the rifle in order is likely the least expensive route.
Post by: jrebel on May 13, 2022, 01:15:52 PM
Inch past the lug is fairly standard from what I've seen. If you're sure the scope or mounts aren't the issue then sounds like that gun needs to go back to the smith for some warranty work.
Put my brand new zeis on it to make sure the scope was not the problem Torqued the rail to spec. and the scope is not the issue. Checked and torqued the action screws, cleaned, the whole works.....still shoots like garbage. I told my buddy that spending another dime on it, at this point, is a wasted dime. I can usually work a decent load in 25-50 rounds. A great load after tweaking in way less than 100 rounds. We are 150 rounds into this and I think I'm done.
I don't own this chambering so I started from scratch.
- uniform / deburr flash whole,
- Anneal brass
- Full length size to .002 of chamber based on a fired case.
- trim, deburr, chamfer
- ladder test with 0.5 grains of powder through the spectrum looking for pressure.
- Best node was ES of 21 with 1.5 grains of powder (three shots), picked the middle load.
- Seat to mag length which depending on the bullet put me at 0.02 to 0.08 off the lands to start
I have tried hammer hunters, accubonds and ELD-X bullets with weights ranging from 174 to 212 grains. Notta....nothing....I could get tighter groups with 12 gauge at 100 yards. :chuckle: :chuckle: Some sarcasm.....but you get my point.
It's a 300 RUM with 1:10 twist 24" proof barrel.
In comparison....my new project was a 338 lapua factory savage. I use the same process with all my reloading and it is shooting 1/2" or better MOA. It was a new chambering for me and it likes to shoot. Same with all my rifles.....
Bedding is normal. You sure its not the scope?I was thinking same.
Your “Custom loads” aren’t made for that rifle.
Have you tried developing for that rifle?
A rifle can be a tack driver or a scattergun depending on the ammo.
What bullet
What caliber.
Powder
Coal
Barrel harmonic is not good or something.
Muzzle break,free floated.
Spill all the beans!!!!!
Primarily have been using H1000. Switched from my buddies jug to mine to confirm powder wasn't the issue. Played a little with 4832SC and retumbo to find the same groups.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 13, 2022, 01:29:42 PM
Post by: Fidelk on May 13, 2022, 01:31:14 PM
Has a Burris 2-10x42 scope which almost allows me to see the bullseye on the target at that distance. I would go nuts with a setup that cost $3200 but didn't deliver. It's bedded and the heavy barrel is free floated. For an inexpensive production rifle it is awesome. Just got lucky in buying what I did.......I wouldn't know how to build an accurate rifle. The suggestion to return to smith for warranty work, if available, would be a starting point, along with factory ammo.
Post by: hunter399 on May 13, 2022, 01:31:50 PM
And it's gonna sound CRAZY!!!
Load three rounds to the same length as factory.
Or start backing up your coal.
Depending on how the chamber is cut.
That bullet might need a jump to the rifling,instead of being so close to it.
Some rifles like weird stuff. :dunno:
I know it's crazy talk ,but I have seen some calibers shoot better with some bullet jump.
Just looking at Google it looks like 3.6 is standard for that caliber, Whatever your COAL is split the difference,load like 5 rounds and test it.
Post by: OltHunter on May 13, 2022, 01:39:25 PM
Also double check a go/no go if you have it.
I just bedded by build, defiance action and proof sendero carbon, and in all my research, you shouldn't go past the lug when you have a proof sendero. The main thing is to bed up to the parallel section of the barrel, which in the proofs is behind the lug.
I'm with you to suspect bedding and free float all the way to the front of the lug. I know McMillian doesn't even recommend bedding unless accuracy is not up to your standards.
If a stock, free float stock, produces better results, you found your answer. If it still shoots garbage, try some factory loads to confirm like other mentioned.
Post by: crabcreekhunter on May 13, 2022, 03:56:15 PM
Post by: b23 on May 13, 2022, 04:25:04 PM
Post by: jrebel on May 13, 2022, 04:45:22 PM
Doesn't the gunsmith that built it have any kind of accuracy guarantee? If it shoots that bad, the smith would be getting it back.
Well....one would think that would be the case. This rifle has been back to the smith twice now and keeps coming back with problems. The first time I saw the rifle, it wouldn't chamber a round. It would pick it up from from the magazine, push it forward but would not seat the head of the round in the bolt face. Thinking there may be an issue with the head space, I took the ejector and firing pin out of the bolt to make sure the bold face was the correct size. I then used a live round to see if it would chamber after being placed in the bolt.....it chambered fine. It would not chamber it had to feed the round though. Hope that makes sense.....
Next step was to slide the round in the chamber and push the bolt up against to find out where it was hitting and why it wasn't picking up the round. Long story short, the bolt face was not centered in the bolt. Now, we are talking literally thousandths of an inch...but enough to keep it from chambering a round. The smith turned out a rifle that wouldn't even chamber a round..... :yike: :yike:
Two months later after the bold face was milled out filled and re-milled to spec, it now chambers a round. My guess is, we are not dealing with a trued action and that is as much the problem as anything. This smith is a joke.....and I wouldn't take anything to him. I have seen some of his rifles and they are amazing shooters...though one of them had to go back to him three times before it would shoot. I have also seen this kind of work. I feel my buddy got taken advantage of and is ultimately SOL.
My advise today was stop sinking money into this rifle. He could buy a Browning Xbolt max long range for 1/3 of what he has into this one and have a rifle that shoots sub MOA. Sucks...but is better than putting one more cent into this rifle. He could part this rifle out and probably pay for 2/3 the browning.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 13, 2022, 05:06:08 PM
Post by: b23 on May 13, 2022, 05:35:40 PM
All of the gunsmiths I've used over the years for different builds have always shot them for function and accuracy before I picked them up or they were sent out. I know not all gunsmiths do that but for future builds I'd suggest finding one that does.
At the least, I would do everything possible to force this gunsmith to make it right and it shouldn't cost your friend another penny for anything, it's up to the smith to make it function and shoot properly. If the smith thinks it's a barrel issue then they should contact the barrel manufacture and talk to them about sending it back for a replacement. Unless the smith has some kind of prior and reputable relationship as a gunsmith with the barrel manufacture they probably won't just send out a new barrel before they see that one back.
It's really unfortunate your friend is having to go through this, that sucks.
Post by: jasnt on May 15, 2022, 06:02:26 AM
Not talking smack here but not many folks can accurately shoot an un braked rum especially if it light.
Post by: jrebel on May 15, 2022, 07:03:40 AM
Does it have a brake? What’s it weigh?
Not talking smack here but not many folks can accurately shoot an un braked rum especially if it light.
It does have a break and and it is about 10 lbs total weight. I shoot my 338 lapua that kicks harder without problem.
Post by: jasnt on May 15, 2022, 07:21:50 AM
just checking. I have seen 3 Moa go to sub Moa with the right load.Does it have a brake? What’s it weigh?
Not talking smack here but not many folks can accurately shoot an un braked rum especially if it light.
It does have a break and and it is about 10 lbs total weight. I shoot my 338 lapua that kicks harder without problem.
Post by: jakeweb on May 15, 2022, 07:30:14 AM
Post by: jakeweb on May 15, 2022, 07:31:38 AM
Post by: jrebel on May 15, 2022, 07:44:08 AM
Pretty sure it’s gonna go back to the smith. We have 200-300 dollars in load development with these results on a custom / semi custom rifle…..something is seriously wrong.
Post by: NWShooter on May 15, 2022, 08:48:12 PM
Post by: GWP on May 15, 2022, 08:54:26 PM
Sucks to have something work WAY below expectations.
Hope it gets figured out!
Post by: Alchase on May 15, 2022, 09:23:14 PM
This issue should hav been corrected by the smith. Before your friend took possession of the rifle.
What was the smith’s response when contacted?
I never understand paying $2k to $3k for a custom rifle build, without the builder/smith providing proof of the rifle’s capabilities :dunno:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 15, 2022, 10:31:25 PM
I never understand paying $2k to $3k for a custom rifle build,……….Awwww the good old days….. you mean $4-$5k…….,
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2022, 10:16:42 AM
This may sound like a silly question, but did the “Smith” actually shoot the rifle and provide an example of what it is capable of and what load he used to test?
This issue should hav been corrected by the smith. Before your friend took possession of the rifle.
What was the smith’s response when contacted?
I never understand paying $2k to $3k for a custom rifle build, without the builder/smith providing proof of the rifle’s capabilities :dunno:
I can't say for sure.....what I can say is when it came back the first time I saw it, it wouldn't chamber a round. My guess is, no it was never fired before going to my buddy.
It's hard....because I know this smith has put out some great work. I also know of two rifles that required multiple trips back before it would shoot accurately. It's frustrating because this rifle has spent more time in the shop in the last 2 years than at the range. The initial cost for a custom rifle has now gun up 10% due to wasted time, energy, powder, bullets, etc. etc. trying to get it to shoot.
Sounds like the smith got wind of this post is wants to stand behind his work. I have purposely not named him or given any information on him because....well sometimes stuff happens.....cross our fingers this gets fixed. :tup:
Post by: Havetohunt on May 16, 2022, 10:23:03 AM
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2022, 10:34:37 AM
Imo there it isn't the guns. I have never seen a custom from that gun Smith not shoot. Let alone a proof custom build. The hammer bullets and the 212 eldx have not shot in any of my guns. Try a berger 210 with around 89 to 90 grains of retumbo and should shoot. I have had 2 rims and 3 buddy's with them and all shot about the same.
In my experience, I have not found a rifle that would not shoot a hammer or ELD-X. Matter of fact, they have been the least finicky bullets out there, especially when it comes to seating depth. With that said, I shoot a lot of accubonds (not LR's) and they also shoot and load very well. I am not a fan of the ELD-X for hunting...but that is my personal bias based on experiences on moose and bear.
I have not loaded a ton of bergers, mostly due to the love hate relationship people have with them (you either love them or you hate them :chuckle: :chuckle:). A couple guides I know are in the hate category as it pertains to bergers on game based on the the lost animals and exploding bullets. I can't say much other than I have steered clear of them. Find it hard to believe they would shoot when nothing else has....but who knows. :dunno: :dunno:
I confessed that I have never loaded for a 300 RUM before.....so maybe I am the problem?? With that said, I load a lot and have a pretty tried and trued method that has worked for every rifle I own. That is what is good about this forum....running ideas past others, because I can always learn more.
Post by: Havetohunt on May 16, 2022, 11:50:59 AM
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2022, 12:03:13 PM
Have u contacted either of the gun smith's. Mabe gave them a chance before u go bashing them on here? I know for a fact that that gun Smith is a stand up guy.
No one is bashing anyone. Don't start a fight that doesn't exist......or need to be started. I have clearly stated that the gun smith has put out good rifles....I have seen that first hand. I have also stated "stuff happens". I have also stated the smith has been in contact with the owner and will stand behind his rifle.....This is good (my last post based on the rifle owners accord).
You apparently know the smith and likely know me. I have simply stated the facts and looked for suggestions should I have missed something. I'm not infallible and could be missing something easy. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it....thus asking the question and posting my experience. Looks like I covered all the bases though....so pretty safe in saying something is wrong with the rifle. New powder, different bullets, torque all screws, change scope, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure the smith will make it right....at least I hope so. Hope it take priority so the rifle can see a fall bear hunt this year.
I never mentioned the smiths name or business so how am I bashing anyone??
Post by: GWP on May 16, 2022, 12:20:02 PM
Post by: Havetohunt on May 16, 2022, 01:02:04 PM
Post by: Fidelk on May 16, 2022, 01:21:50 PM
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2022, 01:27:04 PM
When u say that the gun smith's sent the gun out in non working order and fail to mention that the reason it had to go bad was your fault and blame every thing on him. That is bashing. I'm not here to start a fight. You left facts out when u posted this. I don't know u nor is that relevant. I know the gunsmith. He has built me personally 5 rifles and all shoot in the .1 and .2. So with that being said take both guns back to the Smith and have him look it over. I will problem be involved in load dev for that rifle cause we have the same mutual friend with the rifle
My fault, please pm....or on the open forum....let me know how any of this is my fault?
I assume your talking about the bolt face. How was that my fault? The first time I touched that rifle is the day we (mutual friend) confirmed it would not chamber a round. The history I had was the bolt face was damaged previously due to over pressure / primer blow out and it had to be rebuilt....apparently before the actual custom rifle build. It got rebuilt / replaced and then would not chamber a round. I figured out why and it went in to be fixed. Now it doesn't shoot. Now, if those are not the facts....I have been told the wrong story.
Doesn't change the fact, that I never put a round down range with that rifle prior to the new bolt / bolt face rebuild.
Sounds like we are both being told different stories. If this is the case, feel free to pm me or even give me a shout via cell. I will pm my number.
Post by: jrebel on May 16, 2022, 10:38:07 PM
1. Havetohunt is a nice dude and we did talk and text. Though we differ in opinions on whether or not I bashed the smith.....It's somewhat irrelevant. I ask if he would fix his post stating I caused any damage, which is 100% false.
2. I never left facts out...at least facts that I was aware of. Again 100% false.
He knows this now and he acknowledged it via text. I ask if he would clear it up on the forum.......and maybe he was busy tonight...but I didn't want to leave it open ended like this. Some may not agree with my post, but no one can say I have lied to them on this forum. I'm old school and my word is my bond.
It appears the smith is gonna work on the rifle....to me that says a lot. Havetohunt contacting me says a lot too. Both seem to be good dudes. Hopefully at the end of the day, the rifle shoots well and people aren't butthurt over stuff happening.
Hopefully me clearing this up doesn't twist anyone's nipples....but I don't like lies / mistruths that make me out to be a liar.
Post by: NWShooter on May 17, 2022, 05:04:39 AM
Makes me question humanity. When a gunsmith finds out something may be currently wrong with one of his rifles because a third party reads about it from another third party posting on a open forum and the person posting doesn’t even own the rifle and the owner of the rifle doesn’t know things are being posted about is rifle and the gun smith.
Then the gunsmith contacts the owner of the rifle. Due to the fact he has read on HuntWA that there were issues but nobody has told him there were issues, including the owner of the rifle. Yet a third party running around with another guys rifle is calling the rifle garbage and a boat anchor on a open forum without the owners knowledge and with out the Smith knowing there are supposed issues.
I would have the thread deleted and move on. The picture can’t be repainted other than what it is and that is tragic.
Post by: GWP on May 17, 2022, 07:00:46 AM
This went from a gun that ‘would not shoot’, to someone besides the builder messing with parts of it, without his knowledge, before the gun was even shot the first time, to the builder finding out about ‘issues’ with his build on a forum?
Wow. Just, wow.
Let the drama continue!
Post by: jrebel on May 17, 2022, 07:28:56 AM
If one has to ask if there should be bedding under the shank of a barrel. They have absolutely no Experience or knowledge of custom rifles. One could simply have done a search pertaining to the question concerning bedding. Last but not least. You were shooting another guys rifle. Leave the issues between the he rifles owner and the smith. Pages of replies concerning issues that aren’t yours and you didn’t pay for.
Makes me question humanity. When a gunsmith finds out something may be currently wrong with one of his rifles because a third party reads about it from another third party posting on a open forum and the person posting doesn’t even own the rifle and the owner of the rifle doesn’t know things are being posted about is rifle and the gun smith.
Then the gunsmith contacts the owner of the rifle. Due to the fact he has read on HuntWA that there were issues but nobody has told him there were issues, including the owner of the rifle. Yet a third party running around with another guys rifle is calling the rifle garbage and a boat anchor on a open forum without the owners knowledge and with out the Smith knowing there are supposed issues.
I would have the thread deleted and move on. The picture can’t be repainted other than what it is and that is tragic.
You are correct....I don't live in the custom world. I did google it and got a lot of different opinions....thus asking here and always trying to learn more than I already do. I can see the errors in my way with this post and thus apologize. 99% of people on this forum have no idea of who the people involved are, so making generalizations of a rifle being a boat anchor (any rifle that doesn't shoot gets this title, not just customs), but the one or two that apparently took it personal. I totally see why and again apologize!!
Sounds like the rifle is going to be gone through and made to shoot well so I guess at the end of the day it all worked out. Likely a better way to have gotten to this point, but well at least we are there. :tup: :tup:
Post by: NWShooter on May 17, 2022, 07:35:40 AM
Post by: jrebel on May 17, 2022, 07:37:45 AM
💩💩💩💩💩
:tup:
Your awesome