Post by: Ridgeratt on June 23, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Dear Friend of Methow Valley Wildlife,
This winter while snowshoeing with friends we discovered a line of animal traps in a Methow Wildlife Area site (also a habitat restoration area) along the Methow River; some traps were within sight of Highway 20. After some investigation we found that an annual trapping permit costs $41.60 and at the end of the five-month trapping season a trapper reports how many individuals of ten species were "harvested." Some of those species are marten, mink, beaver and bobcat. Animals are caught in baited live traps and then shot to preserve their fur, or in Koro or rodent snap traps which kill by a blow to the head, or by drowning. In an effort to find out how much trapping is done in the Methow Valley we filed the first of two public disclosure requests in February. We have received no data yet. Are there population studies of the ten species that inhabit our riparian areas? How can we humans "protect, restore and enhance habitats" (WDFW press release) if we don't know the facts?
I am writing to you because our local WDFW employees are underfunded and are working with a set of rules and guidelines that no longer reflect the scientific knowledge we hold about flora and fauna and their interdependence. We have many habitat restoration sites in the Methow Valley (see attached list). We encourage the animals to move into a restoration area, and then we trap them. In addition to the ethical issues involved there are huge financial and time commitments made for each restoration project.
We wrote a letter to the WDFW Commissioners expressing our concerns about trapping and our desire to work with WDFW to make policy and rules changes. That letter is attached to the bottom of this email.
If you want to express your views there is a Methow Wildlife Area Management Plan Workshop on June 28th from 6-8 p.m. at the Winthrop Barn. You may provide feedback about recreational and wildlife management opportunities by participating in an online survey at https://publicinput.com/R2352. The following link will connect you with WDFW Commissioners and their meeting agendas, and how to contact them: https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings/2022/23-25june2022-fwc-agenda.
Thank you for reading. If you have any questions please email or phone. One living being does not thrive without affecting other living beings. It's time to stop "managing our wildlife resources" and start caring for our habitats.
Carpe Diem,
Linda Machia
509-997-0705
lmach53@gmail.com
PS: You are receiving this because I met you at a gathering or a potluck or just around town. I took a chance that some of the folks might be interested in this issue.
To: Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife Commissioners
From: Linda Machia and Jan Sodt
Re: Wildlife Trapping in Riparian Areas and Stream Restoration Sites
Date: June 2, 2022
As permanent residents of Washington State, we respectfully request that the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife Commissioners place a moratorium on
trapping in riparian areas, including stream and habitat restoration areas that are located on public lands, while the Department and Commissioners gather data and consider a permanent ban. These measures are necessary to preserve threatened species and to avoid undermining stream and river restoration efforts while the long-term impacts of trapping are studied.
Part of the statutory mandate of the Department and the Commission is to preserve, protect, perpetuate and manage the wildlife of the state of Washington. And while the Department may authorize the taking of wildlife, it must be done at times and places, or in manners and quantities that the Department judges does not impair the supply of these resources (RCW 77.04.012). The extent to which trapping impairs the supply of fur-bearing mammals, in particular species that are critical to the health of riparian eco-systems, must be considered by the Department and Commissioners.
Throughout the State of Washington, most trappers trap in or very near to riparian areas. According to the Department’s website, “[Al]though riparian systems make up a small share of the state’s land area, they provide a disproportionate amount of Washington’s fish and wildlife habitat. More than three-quarters of Washington’s land-based species use riparian areas as habitat. For this reason, riparian ecosystems are designated as priority habitat.”
Most of our State’s streams and rivers have been negatively impacted for centuries by agriculture, intense resource extraction (mineral, plant, and animal), dam construction, erosion, and overgrazing by domestic livestock. Every one of these impacts has reduced stream channel complexity and led to the degradation and loss of habitat quality and abundance. These impacts are being exacerbated by an increase in the number, frequency, and intensity of large wildfires and subsequent erosion, and changing patterns of precipitation and temperature due to climate change and human interference. Trappers continue to harvest American badger, beaver, bobcat, mink, muskrat, raccoon, red fox, river otter, marten, and long-tailed and short-tailed weasel, notwithstanding these negative impacts on these species and their habitats.
The extirpation of beavers by trapping is one example of the consequences of human interference on riparian areas located on public lands. As studies have shown, beavers maintain and improve riparian areas. According to the Washington Department of Ecology’s website:
Beavers are a critical asset in Washington, assuring that healthy riparian zones are maintained, especially in the dry climate east of the Cascades. Beaver dams and ponds support endangered salmon and other riparian dependent threatened and endangered species, native vegetation and wetlands along streams, trap sediment, recharge groundwater, and improve water quality.
Yet, each year, the Department issues permits to Washington State residents – at $41.60 per permit – to trap diverse wildlife, including beavers, that is attracted to these riparian areas. This negates efforts to restore riparian ecosystems that are designated as priority habitats.
Over the past twenty plus years, millions of public and private dollars have been spent to restore Washington’s watersheds and stream habitats for fish and wildlife. Federal and State agencies, as well as private and non-profit organizations, have been and continue to spend millions of dollars on riparian area restoration efforts. Attached to this letter is a list of examples that demonstrate the hard work, time, money and other resources spent on restoration. These efforts are undermined by trapping, which has no offsetting value to the citizens of the State.
In addition to the reasons discussed above, we are not at all sure that the Department has actual local and scientifically based population estimates of the species being trapped under its current management plan. After we were unable to find information on the WDFW website pertaining to population studies and management of the species that are trapped in Washington State or the extent of “harvest” of those species or other impacts of trapping, we filed public records requests. Our efforts began with the first public disclosure request on February 10, 2022. To date, the only communication from the Department's Public Records Officer has been to notify us that the Department needs more time to produce these public records. Our second request for a different set of data was submitted on May 23, 2022. We believe the records requested will supply valuable data to the public and the Commission as it considers our request to restrict trapping in riparian areas. Please see the attached copies of the two public disclosure requests we filed with the Department.
Finally, we would ask the Commission to revise the current trapping regulations in a manner that addresses restoration efforts in individual GMU’s, taking into account species’ population densities, existence of existing species monitoring groups, such as beaver management groups, and annual recommendations from WFDW's fur-bearing monitoring effort. In addition, we request that you also consider the ramifications of allowing trapping of species that use similar habitats, and indeed, may resemble those species that are currently on the threatened and endangered species list (e.g., lynx, fisher, Pacific pine marten).
One simple and immediately relevant action the Commission could take is to direct the Department to remove the recipes section of the outdated trapping booklet entitled “Trapper Education in Washington State” and replace it with a science-based discussion of keystone species, wildlife and fish restoration efforts, and how trappers should be mindful of their impacts. (Note: the most recent article cited from the bibliography is from 1983).
We realize the enormity of changing traditional trapping practices. We understand some of the limits on WDFW staff. But it's time to start using the research and data the Department already has, and where there are gaps, direct further research, to fully understand the impact of trapping and alter our state’s trapping regulations to account for changes in the environment and priorities of the State’s citizens. It's time to honor the hard work by WDFW staff and so many agencies working on river and habitat restoration projects.
We appreciate your consideration of the time, effort and money involved in rebuilding our State's riparian areas. We look forward to further communication and discussion.
Linda Machia Jan Sodt
Linda Machia Jan Sodt
Mailing Address: P.O. Box 43146
Office Location: 1111 Washington Street S.E.
Olympia, Washington 98501-3137
Telephone (360) 706-3325
PublicDisclosureRequest@dfw.wa.gov
REQUEST FOR PUBLIC RECORD
NOTE: The Department of Fish and Wildlife may impose charges for providing copies of public records (RCW 42.56.120)
1. REQUESTOR'S NAME: Linda Machia
COMPANY/ FIRM:
MAILING ADDRESS: PO Box 754 Twisp/WA 98856
Street/Box City/State Zip Code
EMAIL: lmach53@gmail.com TELEPHONE: 509-997-0705
2. PLEASE DESCRIBE THE RECORDS YOU ARE REQUESTING AND PROVIDE ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT WILL
ASSIST US IN LOCATING IDENTIFIABLE RECORDS. PLEASE BE AS SPECIFIC AS POSSIBLE. PLEASE PROVIDE TIMELINE
(DATE/YEAR TO DATE/YEAR); CASE NUMBER(S); CLEARLY AND CORRECTLY SPELLED NAMES OF PARTIES INVOLVED.
PROVIDING SPECIFIC INFORMATION WILL ALLOW US TO PROCESS YOUR REQUEST MORE EFFICIENTLY.
(1) All records that show the number of trapping licenses sold by WDFW in the State of Washington in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022.
(2) All records that show the total revenue generated by the sale of trapping licenses in the State of Washington for each year listed in (1) above.
(3) Average salary and job description of one WDFW wildlife enforcement officer in 2022.
(4) All studies, documents, reports used by WDFW to determine the number of animals that habitats can support throughout the year without damaging the habitat (carrying capacity).
(5) All “Licensed Trapper & Wildlife Control Operator (WCO) Annual Activity Report Forms” submitted to WDFW in the State of Washington in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022.
3. RECORDS WILL BE PROVIDED ELECTRONICALLY UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED.
X0 Electronic 0 Photocopy 0 CD 0 Inspection
NOTE: FEE ESTIMATES WILL BE PROVIDED IN ADVANCE OF PRODUCTION
4. PURPOSE FOR WHICH INFORMATION IS REQUESTED*:
To determine the cost for WDFW to oversee trapping in the state of WA. To ascertain whether and how WDFW has determined “carrying capacity” in the habitats where trapping is legal in WA state.
CERTIFICATION THAT LISTS OF INDIVIDUALS WILL NOT BE USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES
I understand that pursuant to RCW 42.56.070(8), WDFW is prohibited from releasing lists of individuals if such lists will be used for “commercial purposes.” “Commercial purposes” has been interpreted to mean “any business activity intended to generate profits,” SEIU Healthcare 775NW v. Dep't of Soc. & Health Servs., 193 Wn. App. 377 (2016), and includes business activity “by any form of business enterprise intended to generate revenue or financial benefit,” Id., including not-for-profit entities.
I hereby certify that any list of individuals provided to me by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) will not be used for commercial purpose. I further certify that I will protect any list of individuals provided to me by WDFW from access by anyone who may use it for commercial purposes.
I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of Washington that the foregoing is true and correct.
Linda Machia May 23, 2022
Signature of Requestor Date
* Requests for lists of individuals may require additional information to verify that the list is not for commercial purpose.
Mailing Address: P.O. Box 43146
Office Location: 1111 Washington Street S.E.
Olympia, Washington 98501-3137
Telephone (360) 706-3325
PublicDisclosureRequest@dfw.wa.gov
REQUEST FOR PUBLIC RECORD
NOTE: The Department of Fish and Wildlife may impose charges for providing copies of public records (RCW 42.56.120)
1. REQUESTOR'S NAME: Linda Machia
COMPANY/ FIRM:
MAILING ADDRESS: PO Box 754 Twisp, WA 98856
Street/Box City/State Zip Code
EMAIL: lmach53@gmail.com TELEPHONE: 509-997-0705
2. PLEASE DESCRIBE THE RECORDS YOU ARE REQUESTING AND PROVIDE ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT WILL
ASSIST US IN LOCATING IDENTIFIABLE RECORDS. PLEASE BE AS SPECIFIC AS POSSIBLE. PLEASE PROVIDE TIMELINE
(DATE/YEAR TO DATE/YEAR); CASE NUMBER(S); CLEARLY AND CORRECTLY SPELLED NAMES OF PARTIES INVOLVED.
PROVIDING SPECIFIC INFORMATION WILL ALLOW US TO PROCESS YOUR REQUEST MORE EFFICIENTLY.
(1) Any/all reports or documents that include the names and trapper id numbers of licensed trappers trapping in the following areas for the following time periods:
Areas: in or around Twisp, Mazama, Winthrop, Carlton WA (otherwise known as the Methow Valley).
Time Periods: 11/1/19 – 3/31/20 and 11/1/20 – 3/31/21 and 11/1/2021 to 2/10/22.
(2) Any/all reports or documents that include any violations of WA state trapping laws and/or regulations for the time periods and areas listed in (1) above.
(3) All “Licensed Trapper & Wildlife Control Operator (WCO) Annual Activity Report Forms” submitted to WDFW for the time periods of 11/1/19 - 3/31/20 and 11/1/20 – 3/31/21 in the areas listed in number (1) above. (Note: these forms may contain the information requested in number (1) above.
3. RECORDS WILL BE PROVIDED ELECTRONICALLY UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED.
X Electronic 0 Photocopy 0 CD 0 Inspection
NOTE: FEE ESTIMATES WILL BE PROVIDED IN ADVANCE OF PRODUCTION
4. PURPOSE FOR WHICH INFORMATION IS REQUESTED*:
(1) Gather information pertaining to the number and identity of persons engaged in trapping in the areas listed above during the time periods listed above;
(2) Gather information pertaining to violations of trapping laws and regulations for the time periods and in the areas listed above;
(3) Gather information pertaining to the number of species that are being trapped by *activity codes listed on the WCO annual activity report forms (*species euthanized, none captured, released on site, relocated, other).
CERTIFICATION THAT LISTS OF INDIVIDUALS WILL NOT BE USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES
I understand that pursuant to RCW 42.56.070(8), WDFW is prohibited from releasing lists of individuals if such lists will be used for “commercial purposes.” “Commercial purposes” has been interpreted to mean “any business activity intended to generate profits,” SEIU Healthcare 775NW v. Dep't of Soc. & Health Servs., 193 Wn. App. 377 (2016), and includes business activity “by any form of business enterprise intended to generate revenue or financial benefit,” Id., including not-for-profit entities.
I hereby certify that any list of individuals provided to me by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) will not be used for commercial purpose. I further certify that I will protect any list of individuals provided to me by WDFW from access by anyone who may use it for commercial purposes.
I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of Washington that the foregoing is true and correct.
Linda Machia February 10, 2022
Signature of Requestor Date
* Requests for lists of individuals may require additional information to verify that the list is not for commercial purpose.
Post by: O. Nerka on June 23, 2022, 07:47:35 PM
Post by: JakeLand on June 23, 2022, 07:49:36 PM
And if they were smart which those 2 *censored* sisters aren’t they can find find out what all was trapped each year :bash:
Post by: greenhead_killer on June 23, 2022, 07:57:38 PM
Post by: emac on June 23, 2022, 08:00:11 PM
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: The scout on June 23, 2022, 08:05:57 PM
Complete BS ! They will not get anywhere with this and our reports will not get passed along
And if they were smart which those 2 *censored* sisters aren’t they can find find out what all was trapped each year :bash:
*censored*
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 23, 2022, 08:18:31 PM
Post by: Cougartail on June 23, 2022, 08:28:35 PM
Complete BS ! They will not get anywhere with this and our reports will not get passed along
And if they were smart which those 2 *censored* sisters aren’t they can find find out what all was trapped each year :bash:
The *censored* sisters are just trying to protect the beavers :chuckle:
*censored* thus the attitude. Sounds like they got a talking to and they aren't going to take any direction from redneck trappers, thus also why their pelt is unwanted.
If they are married I'd like to meet the spineless wimps who would put up with that much testosterone. Marxist control freaks..
Post by: callturner on June 23, 2022, 09:39:35 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 23, 2022, 09:57:05 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 23, 2022, 10:21:15 PM
Post by: lewy on June 23, 2022, 11:20:51 PM
if you purposefully use banned words you are going to be censored!
Post by: Special T on June 23, 2022, 11:27:33 PM
Post by: timberfaller on June 24, 2022, 12:04:47 AM
Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2022, 12:30:51 AM
And that's what happens when you have a trapline in the winter in an area that has cars parked at it all summer, interp signs and your secret parking spot is on the side of the highway.
Pretty much every serious trapper on HW said "move your freaking traps" and he assured us that his traps were well hidden and secret and all that jazz. :bash: :bash:
Post by: Cougartail on June 24, 2022, 05:57:51 AM
This is going to get ugly because she knows the legal system and advocating.
Thus the slick talk in the FOI request.
Don't do business with her and spread the word. You'd be supporting the worst kind of beaver lovers.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 24, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
I'm pretty sure this woman was an attorney. Her and her "partner" now own Small Batch Woodworking LLC.
This is going to get ugly because she knows the legal system and advocating.
Thus the slick talk in the FOI request.
Don't do business with her and spread the word. You'd be supporting the worst kind of beaver lovers.
Yep
Just got it in February, no website yet.
Post by: MADMAX on June 24, 2022, 06:13:58 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 24, 2022, 06:26:11 AM
And that's what happens when you have a trapline in the winter in an area that has cars parked at it all summer, interp signs and your secret parking spot is on the side of the highway.
Pretty much every serious trapper on HW said "move your freaking traps" and he assured us that his traps were well hidden and secret and all that jazz. :bash: :bash:
As Evident by the swamps of Olympia and DC...... Just keep giving them a "little" and rest assured you WILL eventually lose it all. :twocents:And we know these were his traps how? :hello:
Post by: Angry Perch on June 24, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
And that's what happens when you have a trapline in the winter in an area that has cars parked at it all summer, interp signs and your secret parking spot is on the side of the highway.
Pretty much every serious trapper on HW said "move your freaking traps" and he assured us that his traps were well hidden and secret and all that jazz. :bash: :bash:
Sounds like another example of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.:
Post by: Cougartail on June 24, 2022, 07:20:38 AM
We're doomed..
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 24, 2022, 07:40:59 AM
Post by: JakeLand on June 24, 2022, 08:24:56 AM
Post by: Cougartail on June 24, 2022, 08:48:31 AM
Seems fair?
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 24, 2022, 09:08:37 AM
https://www.amazon.com/Repellent-Outdoor-Organic-Furniture-Repellant/dp/B083P746VC/ref=asc_df_B083P746VC?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608037883126&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207584793393&th=1
So, I do believe they were harmless just and just out for a stroll. Just enjoying the solitude of nature.
We need to support Jingles in this. He is standing up for the trappers.
Post by: timberfaller on June 24, 2022, 09:41:10 AM
There is an ole saying, "divided we fall, united we stand" And the shooting and hunting world had better wake up!!
Case in point, I know shooters who think AR's should be banned, :bash: :bash: GET a grip people!
I won't hold my breath when it comes to WDFW, they've caved all to often in my life time!
The only answer is to VOTE the bums out in Olympia, get rid of every D!!
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 24, 2022, 04:30:13 PM
Post by: Okano-gun on June 24, 2022, 05:20:32 PM
Post by: Twispriver on June 24, 2022, 06:10:31 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 24, 2022, 06:16:36 PM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on June 24, 2022, 07:56:23 PM
For me the goal of trapping is to spend quality time outdoors and catch fur. This trapper was looking for a confrontation and wanted to make a point. There are many places in the valley where he could have gone and been invisible. Fur trapping is a hot button issue with the anti crowd, always has been, so shoving it in their face just because you can is not doing anything good for anyone.
Bingo. he did the trapping community in Washington and nation wide a huge disservice. This kind of crap setting up traps in busy areas pisses both experienced guys to the animal advocates off for different reasons. It isn’t that hard to get permission to trap private land and move traps away from busy areas such as wildlife areas! The less the anti’s see traps, the better for us.
Post by: greenhead_killer on June 24, 2022, 11:13:30 PM
Post by: JakeLand on June 24, 2022, 11:28:39 PM
no way ! I personally do not bend to the tree huggers ! If it’s legal and you are in the up and up then screw them. A disservice? Hell no I and every other trapper and hunter needs to grow some and stand firm period . I will not say he was in the wrong because he wasn’t and I know the crap that went on over there as I was personally talking with the warden over there on a lot of this issue and the warden agrees with the trapper, sets we’re 100% legal and good to goFor me the goal of trapping is to spend quality time outdoors and catch fur. This trapper was looking for a confrontation and wanted to make a point. There are many places in the valley where he could have gone and been invisible. Fur trapping is a hot button issue with the anti crowd, always has been, so shoving it in their face just because you can is not doing anything good for anyone.
Bingo. he did the trapping community in Washington and nation wide a huge disservice. This kind of crap setting up traps in busy areas pisses both experienced guys to the animal advocates off for different reasons. It isn’t that hard to get permission to trap private land and move traps away from busy areas such as wildlife areas! The less the anti’s see traps, the better for us.
Some of you people making comments here have zero idea what it’s like to have to “sneak” around trapping it’s BS and no different then hunting or fishing yet your fine with that anywhere and everywhere
I’m probably one of the few guys in this state the runs very long lines and I deal with idiots like those 2 witches ,
Post by: timberfaller on June 25, 2022, 12:41:37 AM
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 25, 2022, 05:39:01 AM
Well said Jakeland!!
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 25, 2022, 05:44:06 AM
Post by: Cougartail on June 25, 2022, 06:23:33 AM
A cage trap isn't a danger to anyone or any non-target. If it offends you, tough! I'm offended by many things but deal with them.
People who hide are defeated and weak. People with an agenda know it. What good has it done us? It's time to fight for our sport not wither like some Pansey in the heat.
If 2 dudes can kiss in public and you feel you can't trap in public then they are obviously tougher than you..
Post by: timberfaller on June 25, 2022, 07:59:18 AM
The valley is NOT what it used to be by a long shot!! Liberalism and environmentalist has taken over, I even know of one person who believed everyone should be forced by the county to have the same colored roof's!! :yike: So when they flew over the valley it would look prettier!! :chuckle: :chuckle:
The skinny skiers, peddle pushers and anti-ATV's run the show in the valley. If you don't act like a tree hugger, you'll be shun-ed and torment by these clowns! Green River College comes to mind but that a different story!! 8)
Post by: Norman89 on June 25, 2022, 09:04:15 AM
Well said! I ain't hiding nothing, if I'm all legal anyone that wants to gripe about it can kick rocks. In flip flops with no socks. Those types call for wco work and get the premium charge, just for being a PIAno way ! I personally do not bend to the tree huggers ! If it’s legal and you are in the up and up then screw them. A disservice? Hell no I and every other trapper and hunter needs to grow some and stand firm period . I will not say he was in the wrong because he wasn’t and I know the crap that went on over there as I was personally talking with the warden over there on a lot of this issue and the warden agrees with the trapper, sets we’re 100% legal and good to goFor me the goal of trapping is to spend quality time outdoors and catch fur. This trapper was looking for a confrontation and wanted to make a point. There are many places in the valley where he could have gone and been invisible. Fur trapping is a hot button issue with the anti crowd, always has been, so shoving it in their face just because you can is not doing anything good for anyone.
Bingo. he did the trapping community in Washington and nation wide a huge disservice. This kind of crap setting up traps in busy areas pisses both experienced guys to the animal advocates off for different reasons. It isn’t that hard to get permission to trap private land and move traps away from busy areas such as wildlife areas! The less the anti’s see traps, the better for us.
Some of you people making comments here have zero idea what it’s like to have to “sneak” around trapping it’s BS and no different then hunting or fishing yet your fine with that anywhere and everywhere
I’m probably one of the few guys in this state the runs very long lines and I deal with idiots like those 2 witches ,
Post by: buckfvr on June 25, 2022, 10:17:39 AM
Post by: h20hunter on June 25, 2022, 02:42:31 PM
You want to reply then follow the rules.
Post by: Special T on June 25, 2022, 02:55:20 PM
Post by: JakeLand on June 25, 2022, 03:04:46 PM
I think I heard one of the ladies from the valley talking at the comission meeting today, wanting to ban hunting.they want to ban everything. Just like it’s illegal to relocate nuisance animal but groups like beavers northwest relocate them all the time . They trap them then hold them at the Tulalip hatchery then tag and relocate usually shortly after that get a nuisance call and catch a handful of beaver with pretty ear jewelry!
Post by: DishBogget on June 25, 2022, 03:30:45 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: timberfaller on June 25, 2022, 06:28:31 PM
Like I said, the valley is no were near what it used to be!!
Post by: Special T on June 25, 2022, 06:45:55 PM
If you know about the "snitch report" during covid, the valley is full of snitches!! Some were even long time residents, not locals but residents!! Beware!
Like I said, the valley is no were near what it used to be!!
Perhaps locals should show some turnabout is fair play?
Post by: idaho guy on June 26, 2022, 05:01:02 PM
I've trapped since 1985. Back when we could use foothold and instant kills we watched where we put them to avoid non- targets (ie dogs) not to hide trapping activities. Heck we even put up the red triangles to indicate trapping activities.
A cage trap isn't a danger to anyone or any non-target. If it offends you, tough! I'm offended by many things but deal with them.
People who hide are defeated and weak. People with an agenda know it. What good has it done us? It's time to fight for our sport not wither like some Pansey in the heat.
If 2 dudes can kiss in public and you feel you can't trap in public then they are obviously tougher than you..
This 👍. We have a responsibility as trappers to set footholds and kill traps carefully and responsibility to minimize catching pets etc. We have NO responsibility to set cage traps to not offend bunny huggers. EVERYONE should be behind jingle and pushing for prosecution of the 2 bunny huggers. It was stated he has video of them spraying his set. It’s illegal and everyone should be pushing for charges. I can’t believe any trappers blame jingles actions here. You need to fight with him for your legal rights
Post by: Special T on June 26, 2022, 05:42:48 PM
I've trapped since 1985. Back when we could use foothold and instant kills we watched where we put them to avoid non- targets (ie dogs) not to hide trapping activities. Heck we even put up the red triangles to indicate trapping activities.
A cage trap isn't a danger to anyone or any non-target. If it offends you, tough! I'm offended by many things but deal with them.
People who hide are defeated and weak. People with an agenda know it. What good has it done us? It's time to fight for our sport not wither like some Pansey in the heat.
If 2 dudes can kiss in public and you feel you can't trap in public then they are obviously tougher than you..
This 👍. We have a responsibility as trappers to set footholds and kill traps carefully and responsibility to minimize catching pets etc. We have NO responsibility to set cage traps to not offend bunny huggers. EVERYONE should be behind jingle and pushing for prosecution of the 2 bunny huggers. It was stated he has video of them spraying his set. It’s illegal and everyone should be pushing for charges. I can’t believe any trappers blame jingles actions here. You need to fight with him for your legal rights
I hope he is a member of Washington Trappers Association. they need a great test case to push these anti harassment laws. What is the Prosecutor like in the Methow these days like?
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 26, 2022, 09:27:58 PM
A Certified letter was sent to the Director of WDFW that in accordance with RCW 77.15.065 Authority of Attorney General if Prosecutor defaults.
If the Prosecuting attorney of the county in which the violation of this title or rule of the department occurs fails to file an information against the alleged violator, the attorney general upon request of the commission may file an information in the superior court of the county and prosecute in place of the prosecuting attorney. The commission may request prosecution by the attorney general if thirty days had passed since the commission informed the county prosecuting attorney of the alleged violation.
When the WDFW Enforcement agent gave the case files, with videos of the women spraying his traps, to the prosecuting attorneys office that is the same as the commission informing them of the alleged violation and that happened mid March
Post by: greenhead_killer on June 26, 2022, 09:32:40 PM
Post by: MADMAX on June 26, 2022, 10:06:15 PM
Spandex and soy milk most likely :chuckle:
Post by: JakeLand on June 27, 2022, 03:34:18 AM
I 100% agree and been saying this for a long time ! I will NOT bend or cave to them not even 1”I've trapped since 1985. Back when we could use foothold and instant kills we watched where we put them to avoid non- targets (ie dogs) not to hide trapping activities. Heck we even put up the red triangles to indicate trapping activities.
A cage trap isn't a danger to anyone or any non-target. If it offends you, tough! I'm offended by many things but deal with them.
People who hide are defeated and weak. People with an agenda know it. What good has it done us? It's time to fight for our sport not wither like some Pansey in the heat.
If 2 dudes can kiss in public and you feel you can't trap in public then they are obviously tougher than you..
This 👍. We have a responsibility as trappers to set footholds and kill traps carefully and responsibility to minimize catching pets etc. We have NO responsibility to set cage traps to not offend bunny huggers. EVERYONE should be behind jingle and pushing for prosecution of the 2 bunny huggers. It was stated he has video of them spraying his set. It’s illegal and everyone should be pushing for charges. I can’t believe any trappers blame jingles actions here. You need to fight with him for your legal rights
Post by: bearpaw on June 27, 2022, 02:09:02 PM
Post by: JakeLand on December 23, 2022, 08:32:34 AM
Post by: Cougartail on December 23, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
Well they had their day in court ….. the :censored: got a $275 fine and a one year probation BS for blatant disregard for the law . Even with the videos that the prosecutor had but never used this is what they got . I’m pissed at the law in this country we as trappers have to follow the law and use cages with I.D. Tags on and Check traps within 24 hrs of capture and EVERYTHING else but they get away with everything they want
Figures.. Most poachers are let off easy also.
Post by: KFhunter on December 23, 2022, 09:47:49 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 23, 2022, 09:51:04 AM
Now that there's a conviction, perhaps it's time to go to a civil suit?:yeah:
Post by: boneaddict on December 23, 2022, 09:51:59 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 23, 2022, 09:54:45 AM
Post by: buckfvr on December 23, 2022, 11:08:07 AM
You censored a variation of liberal, really ?
Post by: JakeLand on December 23, 2022, 11:19:32 AM
I have all sorts of vengeful suggestions on how to get back at them, but surely non of them are legal, so I guess I better put my Admin angel hat on and keep my mouth shut. THis sure does piss me off though.i agree 100% on country boy justice
Post by: Cougartail on December 23, 2022, 12:06:47 PM
I have all sorts of vengeful suggestions on how to get back at them, but surely non of them are legal, so I guess I better put my Admin angel hat on and keep my mouth shut. THis sure does piss me off though.i agree 100% on country boy justice
I didn't even bother reporting someone smashing my bobcat trap due to lack of consequences.
I now use cameras and have zero plans of turning them in if caught.
Post by: LDennis24 on December 23, 2022, 12:18:22 PM
Well they had their day in court ….. the :censored: got a $275 fine and a one year probation BS for blatant disregard for the law . Even with the videos that the prosecutor had but never used this is what they got . I’m pissed at the law in this country we as trappers have to follow the law and use cages with I.D. Tags on and Check traps within 24 hrs of capture and EVERYTHING else but they get away with everything they want
Figures.. Most poachers are let off easy also.
No they are not! I know a local guy who got fined $236 for poaching an elk on the Palouse River! Boy I'll bet he regrets that! :dunno: :bash:
He would have spent that much going out of town to hunt for a few days... It's pathetic
Post by: LDennis24 on December 23, 2022, 12:20:00 PM
Post by: Cougartail on December 23, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
Paintball landmine loaded with putrid cat urine would keep them away. Good luck loading it up!
I think a squirt of pure skunk extract down the cabin air intake vent on their vehicle would work better.
A lingering reminder of the wildlife they saved.
Post by: jackelope on December 23, 2022, 04:46:09 PM
*censored* prosecutor and judge slapping the wrist of a *censored* colleague.
You censored a variation of liberal, really ?
That's not what was censored.
Post by: LDennis24 on December 23, 2022, 07:37:09 PM
*censored* prosecutor and judge slapping the wrist of a *censored* colleague.
You censored a variation of liberal, really ?
That's not what was censored.
Lol! Let the imagination run on that one... :chuckle:
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 23, 2022, 08:07:34 PM
Post by: Mulie87 on December 23, 2022, 08:45:15 PM
Post by: JakeLand on December 23, 2022, 09:51:59 PM
Why was Ridgerat’s post taken down ?
Post by: Rainier10 on December 24, 2022, 07:05:42 AM
Anyway this thread was scrubbed of the twice permabanned members name in order to allow the discussion to continue about the attack on trappers and their rights.
The mod team wants the discussion to continue but does want to give a twice permabanned member a platform.
If you want yo talk about this case quit referencing the permabanned member.
Cleaned up again and unlocked.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 24, 2022, 08:04:09 AM
I know a guy, who knows a guy who's cousin's cousin knows a guy?
When I posted this, I will say once again that I had talked with the owner of the forum and assured him the effected parties were not posting thru my screen name. Once again, he agreed that this was information that was needed to let the trapping parties know.
People suggested that he move his line. If you are hunting an area and seeing sign do you move to pike's market to hunt? If you have people who are offended by your choice of pursuits?
I will forward to any mod the videos of the person tampering with his traps. and would post this in the thread.
Post by: jasnt on December 24, 2022, 08:16:42 AM
Post by: timberfaller on December 24, 2022, 08:23:54 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2022, 08:31:44 AM
I'm curious how does this conversation move forward without using the effected parties names?
I know a guy, who knows a guy who's cousin's cousin knows a guy?
When I posted this, I will say once again that I had talked with the owner of the forum and assured him the effected parties were not posting thru my screen name. Once again, he agreed that this was information that was needed to let the trapping parties know.
People suggested that he move his line. If you are hunting an area and seeing sign do you move to pike's market to hunt? If you have people who are offended by your choice of pursuits?
I will forward to any mod the videos of the person who would post this in the thread.
You don't see the stuff that was posted and deleted, I do.
The case itself is important to get out, it has. She got a slap on the wrist, Jingles got a perma-ban again for things he posted. He made a promise to Dale to get back on the forum after his first perma-ban, he didn't keep his word and that's that. I could drag all that out for the internet jury, but we keep mod things in-house and I have no desire to dig up skeletons.
The guys telling him to move his line are WSTA members and prominent trappers who are doing a lot of work for trappers, these are the guys we should all be listening too.
I too don't think its a coincidence that trapping will be high on the comissions agenda after this case, it got on their radar, one of their own got pinched.
As for the bigoted terms it's against forum rules, pretty simple. Everyone agreed to those rules when they signed on to HW.
Leave off the bigoted terms, discuss the case, its simple :dunno:
Post by: JakeLand on December 24, 2022, 08:40:17 AM
I’m out good bye
Post by: jackelope on December 24, 2022, 08:41:02 AM
@Jackelope
Why was Ridgerat’s post taken down ?
I haven’t been much involved in the babysitting of this thread so I don’t know.
Maybe refer to KF’s post above.
There’s rules here. If you break them, stuff will get edited, nuked, etc. You signed up for that and acknowledged that when you agreed to the terms of membership here. Also if you blatantly break the rules, don’t get pissed off at us when we moderate you. We’re just fixing what you agreed to stick to when you signed up for the forum.
If y’all want to have a discussion about this incident, have a discussion. Keep it within the boundaries of the rules here and it’ll stay. Keep going outside those boundaries and it’ll go away. It’s totally possible. We’re mostly all adults here.
Post by: Cougartail on December 24, 2022, 08:46:56 AM
What becomes acceptable is what people see.
Two dudes holding hands is now common place and I have to say they have more backbone than 1/2 the sportsman anymore.
When all hunting, fishing, and trapping is gone maybe people will stop voting for leftist losers like Dimslee.
I'm sure some will decide to take up reading romance novels while holding hands with their former hunting partners.
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2022, 08:49:15 AM
I personally told him to stand his ground and it was ME who dealt with the Gamewarden when everything went south and yes he was in the right and lawful so YOU tell me why I should give one inch to the antis ? I won’t and I will push them back to their place on this topic ! This is the last I will say on this as I’ve been fighting for our RIGHT to trap even with all the hurdles they throw at us
I’m out good bye
I'm glad you dealt with the WDFW Police, it resulted in a fine she otherwise would not have gotten. (and possibly kept Jingles out of jail :chuckle: )
I encourage you to help Jingles pursue a possible civil fine and seek punitive damages. At least encourage him to seek out a hardball lawyer and get professional advice.
As for moving traplines at the time Jingles was talking about beating this gal, booby trapping and other violence, that didn't sit well with me and many others here on the forum.
Now, trapping is on the chopping block, starting with beaver
I don't belive in coincidences :dunno:
Had Jingles moved his trapline as many suggested, would beaver be elevated on the commissions chopping block :dunno:
I dunno, but it is highly suspicious
Post by: MR5x5 on December 24, 2022, 10:02:29 AM
Post by: Caseyd on December 24, 2022, 12:33:36 PM
I personally told him to stand his ground and it was ME who dealt with the Gamewarden when everything went south and yes he was in the right and lawful so YOU tell me why I should give one inch to the antis ? I won’t and I will push them back to their place on this topic ! This is the last I will say on this as I’ve been fighting for our RIGHT to trap even with all the hurdles they throw at us
I’m out good bye
I'm glad you dealt with the WDFW Police, it resulted in a fine she otherwise would not have gotten. (and possibly kept Jingles out of jail :chuckle: )
I encourage you to help Jingles pursue a possible civil fine and seek punitive damages. At least encourage him to seek out a hardball lawyer and get professional advice.
As for moving traplines at the time Jingles was talking about beating this gal, booby trapping and other violence, that didn't sit well with me and many others here on the forum.
Now, trapping is on the chopping block, starting with beaver
I don't belive in coincidences :dunno:
Had Jingles moved his trapline as many suggested, would beaver be elevated on the commissions chopping block :dunno:
I dunno, but it is highly suspicious
Optics, we all need to be aware of our surroundings.
Did he choose the wrong hill to die on? Maybe, maybe not. That’s not up to the community to decide.
We have a Hunter/trapper who was following the law and was harassed by someone breaking the law. Antis are United in their pursuit to shutdown hunting and trapping and we can’t even support someone doing something that wa legal. If this event is causing the commission to make changes, then the connection to the event in question and the ties to commission need to be made loud and clear. The antis might seem like they outnumber us, but it’s just because they are louder.
Post by: Gettin Birdie on December 24, 2022, 01:24:04 PM
Post by: MR5x5 on December 24, 2022, 02:09:05 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 24, 2022, 02:27:11 PM
Post by: Caseyd on December 24, 2022, 04:14:52 PM
Anyone who thinks this would end up being good for trapping should take a look back in time at the skagit elk cull archery hunt back in 2009? I think. Pretty sure that poop show did nothing but bad for hunters and hunting’s image.
That event came to mind but what actually happened from it? They sure as hell didn’t ban elk hunting.
If you think banning hunting is going to stop people from harvesting animals then you’re thinking like them. Who’s going to stop anyone. Give it a little time and everyone would be back to hunting.
Post by: Gettin Birdie on December 24, 2022, 07:15:52 PM
...and it will be perfectly legal for the "authority" to ban all trapping in the area of concern and further. Legality is merely a point in time. Sure you can keep poking the bear, but to what end?
We're in the right, not them. It may be "legal" by the authority, but that doesn't mean it would be right, or the optics would be so, there are many avenues against such behavior and laws. They take every inch from you and you've nothing to show for it, what gives? Look at the state of hunting in WA, gun laws? when does it end? You poke as if you have a right to it and you damn well do. Taking an inch at a time or foot at once eventually equals out to the same. And it's not poking the bear to do what you are legally entitled to do, poking would be going against the grain and then some.
Post by: Gettin Birdie on December 24, 2022, 07:19:01 PM
Anyone who thinks this would end up being good for trapping should take a look back in time at the skagit elk cull archery hunt back in 2009? I think. Pretty sure that poop show did nothing but bad for hunters and hunting’s image.
Nothing is ever going to look good for trapping, ever. It's about keeping our rights and not giving an inch more. If you have anymore details or direct links, I'd happily read them, Thanks.
Post by: Humptulips on December 24, 2022, 09:34:05 PM
I doubt that this has had anything to do with the current beaver issue. The beaver issue first came to the F&W Commission in the form of testimony at the last Furbearer season setting presentation three years ago. It has gained momentum with the appointment of Melanie Rowland. I doubt this case is on anyone's radar.I personally told him to stand his ground and it was ME who dealt with the Gamewarden when everything went south and yes he was in the right and lawful so YOU tell me why I should give one inch to the antis ? I won’t and I will push them back to their place on this topic ! This is the last I will say on this as I’ve been fighting for our RIGHT to trap even with all the hurdles they throw at us
I’m out good bye
I'm glad you dealt with the WDFW Police, it resulted in a fine she otherwise would not have gotten. (and possibly kept Jingles out of jail :chuckle: )
I encourage you to help Jingles pursue a possible civil fine and seek punitive damages. At least encourage him to seek out a hardball lawyer and get professional advice.
As for moving traplines at the time Jingles was talking about beating this gal, booby trapping and other violence, that didn't sit well with me and many others here on the forum.
Now, trapping is on the chopping block, starting with beaver
I don't belive in coincidences :dunno:
Had Jingles moved his trapline as many suggested, would beaver be elevated on the commissions chopping block :dunno:
I dunno, but it is highly suspicious
Post by: jasnt on December 25, 2022, 05:51:25 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 08:43:28 AM
"
They've identified beaver as a keystone species
Post by: LDennis24 on December 25, 2022, 09:59:53 AM
The rodent was made a big deal of in YNP
"BisonElk erode stream beds and eat the brush on the banks of the Yellowstone river and no beaver so no fish and global warming"
They've identified beaver as a keystone species
:yeah:
Many years ago we trapped out beaver in a lot of areas and if it was farmable land we would straighten out the stream to make it easier to farm along and get rid of the slack loops in the stream.
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 10:38:24 AM
Cattle and bison and elk, but mostly cattle these days I’d wager, are terrible bad news for trout and salmon streams from an erosion standpoint. They don’t need beavers help to ruin small streams.
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 10:59:26 AM
Overly broad
I've seen plenty of pastures with eroded stream beds but overtime there's nothing left to really erode, just rock, givin the overall length of the stream its a small fraction
On timber there's a spot or two every so often, but usually so brushed cattle have reduced access points to easy water, and often times fences put in place to protect banks and concentrate cattle in certian areas to limit the erosion. I'm seeing more and more water tanks put in place to keep cattle off streams. Management is important and it is happening, it may need accelerated some could argue I suppose
A lot of wetlands with certian habitat have cattle fenced out completely
I just don't agree cattle are eroding streams in such broad terms
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 11:10:29 AM
Cattle where? In feed lots? On private lands? On FS lands?
Overly broad
My specific experience seeing it is on private ground with small tributary streams. Specifically erosion and feeder springs getting blocked off/plugged up from heavy cattle traffic. Cool water from the springs keeps water temps down. They get blocked off and there’s nothing to help keep water temps down.
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 11:13:35 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 25, 2022, 11:16:13 AM
One neighbor has been having a terrible time with a development due to wetland restrictions. The land wasn't a wetland, but other neighbors ran a ditch through the area. The cattle walked through it so much that it was converted from a quick, straight ditch to a big swampy cattail field.Cattle where? In feed lots? On private lands? On FS lands?
Overly broad
My specific experience seeing it is on private ground with small tributary streams. Specifically erosion and feeder springs getting blocked off/plugged up from heavy cattle traffic. Cool water from the springs keeps water temps down. They get blocked off and there’s nothing to help keep water temps down.
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 11:16:34 AM
1 foot wide, 7 foot deep! which was weird to me
I don't know how much those heat up vs wide shallow streams
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 11:18:13 AM
I fished a few of those streams in Pomeroy, which is probably where you're referring.
1 foot wide, 7 foot deep! which was weird to me
I don't know how much those heat up vs wide shallow streams
I thought about Pomeroy, specifically Pataha Creek, but that’s not where I’m specifically talking about. I think those 1’ wide by 7’ deep creeks happen because of runoff and gully washers.
The one I’m specifically talking about is the Teanaway. It happens everywhere.
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 11:21:08 AM
If a person runs cattle they have a responsibility to the land they use, some will be better than others at it for sure
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 11:41:34 AM
I don't know that one, no one is gonna fix it all but again I'd support some outreach and volunteers to fence off critical areas
If a person runs cattle they have a responsibility to the land they use, some will be better than others at it for sure
The sketchy cloudy gray area is that a lot of the land on the Teanaway was bought up by the “Teanaway Community Forest” and is being rehab’d. There’s lot of now public land that was once private. Hunting and fishing is allowed, but it’s definitely a greenie group.
Post by: buckfvr on December 25, 2022, 11:50:01 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 12:05:18 PM
Its easier for special interest groups to beat up hunters than it is to beat up cattlemen.
This special interest group bought the property and made it public. I’m not a member or anything like that and I’ve done very little research on it. Have a trout guide buddy who told me about it. He also told me it’s open to hunting and fishing. Just closed off now to cattle.
Post by: teanawayslayer on December 25, 2022, 12:53:42 PM
most of the land in the teanaway was afr and plum creek. It has always been open to the public with motor vehicle restrictions that most ignored. The community forest is enforcing the rules.I don't know that one, no one is gonna fix it all but again I'd support some outreach and volunteers to fence off critical areas
If a person runs cattle they have a responsibility to the land they use, some will be better than others at it for sure
The sketchy cloudy gray area is that a lot of the land on the Teanaway was bought up by the “Teanaway Community Forest” and is being rehab’d. There’s lot of now public land that was once private. Hunting and fishing is allowed, but it’s definitely a greenie group.
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2022, 01:02:10 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 25, 2022, 01:34:52 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 25, 2022, 02:07:51 PM
As in all things, balanced management
Just like days past management being skewed heavily to benefit people, crops and livestock isn't the answer, vs today management is heading towards being heavily skewed away from people, crops and livestock usage.
We need a middle, not extremes.
Post by: idaho guy on December 25, 2022, 04:48:46 PM
Post by: timberfaller on December 25, 2022, 08:29:52 PM
Management has always been the answer, not feeling/emotions!!
Post by: Humptulips on December 25, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
The issues as I see it with beaver. Fur trappers or as they are calling us "recreational trappers" took 716 beaver last year. During the fur boom of the 70s and 80s we were trapping a high of near 10,000 beaver in a year. The average year had to be around 6000 so one might ask how does that effect beaver populations? It doesn't, 6000 was sustainable but 700 is not?
At that comment period on seasons, 3 years ago it seemed evident that the beaver relocators were being very unsuccessful and they tried to use trappers as their scapegoat. I mean the beaver they turned loose are gone so it must be those damn trappers. They get their relocation beaver from complaints and here are the numbers. In 4 years, they did 44 beaver introductions. Only 16 were a success. Last year there were about 1100 problem beaver removed in the State, so about 4400 problem beaver as opposed to 44 relocation permits. Does anyone think they can find places for 4400 beaver and if they do who foots the bill for moving them. I know, they plan on convincing people with complaints to live with the beaver. At the cost to remove problem beaver they already have to think they need the beaver gone pretty badly.
The whole thing looks like a grift to me. One tribe received a $240,000 grant for four beaver relocation projects. Pretty good work if you can get it but I doubt there is money floating around to finance moving the other 4000+ beavers.
That is if they even could find places for them. Beavers have been filling all available habitat since at least 62 when the Statewide beaver season was reinstated. If there is a suitable place for beaver in this State they are already there. Suitable also means a place where they can escape from predators. I have no doubt cougar are the number 1 killer of beaver now. I know on my line which I have trapped since the late 60s 90% of the beaver are gone and it all happened after 2000 when cougar populations were climbing, and trapper harvest had bottomed to a 40 year low. (I didn't trap a beaver in WA for 6 years at that time and no one else trapped that area either.) Just look where the beaver are harvested now. In the most populated counties where the sheer numbers of people keep the cougar at bay.
As trappers we know they make great habitat and would love to see more to benefit other furbearers but it does little good to drop them in a place they are doomed to be cougar poop.
If they would do something about cougar numbers, the beaver population would explode.
Hehehe, practicing for my next meeting in January, I guess.
Post by: lewy on December 25, 2022, 10:12:37 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 25, 2022, 11:36:07 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 26, 2022, 09:40:05 AM
Since the debate has gone to beavers, a very famous scientist, Jacque Cousteau and his son did a documentary on a place taken over by beavers sometime back in the 70's. The did a lengthy study on them, the conclusion was, leave beavers unmanaged and they literally will eat themselves out of house and home and kill each other. The place will look like a dead forest with a pond of water and no life in it. They even reported towards the end of the ponds life cycle, the remaining beavers became cannibals of their own kind. Mother nature is the most cruel of letting life run its cycle!See a lot of that on the touchy/feely side. Have them on my property Great Points idaho guy!
Management has always been the answer, not feeling/emotions!!
Post by: Special T on December 26, 2022, 09:53:54 AM
1 Plenty of conflict has occurred at the Stillwater unit in the Snoqualmie valley over dog walkers interrupting and unleashed dogs running the hunting fields during the season.
2 No shooting ordnances instituted in Thurston county (and elsewhere) 300 yards, 500 yards in Kitsap county to prevent duck hunters from hunting. Safety is stated but really its noise. They tried to completely ban Duck hunting in Drayton Harbor near Blaine but failed
3 The legal private land hunting that took place on the Johnson's farm adjacent to Hwy20 for elk in Skagit county. We no longer have an open archery season on the valley floor as a result.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 26, 2022, 09:59:33 AM
I'm curious how does this conversation move forward without using the effected parties names?
I know a guy, who knows a guy who's cousin's cousin knows a guy?
When I posted this, I will say once again that I had talked with the owner of the forum and assured him the effected parties were not posting thru my screen name. Once again, he agreed that this was information that was needed to let the trapping parties know.
People suggested that he move his line. If you are hunting an area and seeing sign do you move to pike's market to hunt? If you have people who are offended by your choice of pursuits?
I will forward to any mod the videos of the person who would post this in the thread.
You don't see the stuff that was posted and deleted, I do.
The case itself is important to get out, it has. She got a slap on the wrist, Jingles got a perma-ban again for things he posted. He made a promise to Dale to get back on the forum after his first perma-ban, he didn't keep his word and that's that. I could drag all that out for the internet jury, but we keep mod things in-house and I have no desire to dig up skeletons.
The guys telling him to move his line are WSTA members and prominent trappers who are doing a lot of work for trappers, these are the guys we should all be listening too.
I too don't think its a coincidence that trapping will be high on the comissions agenda after this case, it got on their radar, one of their own got pinched.
As for the bigoted terms it's against forum rules, pretty simple. Everyone agreed to those rules when they signed on to HW.
Leave off the bigoted terms, discuss the case, its simple :dunno:
Where I do not support bigotry in any form. WE should remember if we play the game on their terms WE will lose. Whereas we agree to keep it a "family" discussion if you keep it up there will eventually be no "Family" to discuss since once again 'They" won. They have already done a great job of dividing us here and if you don't see it :dunno: May need an "adults only" section Thanks Ridgeratt!
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2022, 10:08:25 AM
Do it, it's legal, screw them!
Don't do it, it gives the anti's ammunition and its in bad taste
There's no win here, I see both sides, I agree with pionts made on both sides.
Honestly Elkaholic Dawg, it might land heavily on the "Don't do it!" side, I feel like the "Do it!" side is.... more vocal :chuckle:
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 26, 2022, 10:28:08 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2022, 10:31:27 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 26, 2022, 10:38:01 AM
BCR died, jus sayin ;)
SW..Still there!
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2022, 10:46:44 AM
If we did a HW poll I bet it would land 50/50
Do it, it's legal, screw them!
Don't do it, it gives the anti's ammunition and its in bad taste
There's no win here, I see both sides, I agree with pionts made on both sides.
Honestly Elkaholic Dawg, it might land heavily on the "Don't do it!" side, I feel like the "Do it!" side is.... more vocal :chuckle:
I've personally never been the guy that likes to ruffle feathers in these types of situations. I would definitely be leaning to the "don't do it" side but I totally see the "do it because we can" side also. Just not the guy to cause conflict in situations like this. There is a fine line in this scenario.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2022, 10:49:11 AM
Ive had some pretty mixed feelings following this discussion. I have taken something different away from it that most (I assume). A general trend from the WDFW seems to be changing its mission and land use to mirror the Wa Parks department. Dog walkers, mountain bikers, hikers and cross country skiers should take precedence over Department land purchased with sportsmen dollars for conservation and hunting purposes. While a lot of discussion on here has been made about the Prudence of this trappers choice of location, we should list a series of other restrictions and infringements that are talking place. Some of them might restrict opportunities from sportsmen because of the need to use more discretion.
1 Plenty of conflict has occurred at the Stillwater unit in the Snoqualmie valley over dog walkers interrupting and unleashed dogs running the hunting fields during the season.
2 No shooting ordnances instituted in Thurston county (and elsewhere) 300 yards, 500 yards in Kitsap county to prevent duck hunters from hunting. Safety is stated but really its noise. They tried to completely ban Duck hunting in Drayton Harbor near Blaine but failed
3 The legal private land hunting that took place on the Johnson's farm adjacent to Hwy20 for elk in Skagit county. We no longer have an open archery season on the valley floor as a result.
Stillwater is an interesting one. There's basically a walking/bike trail running right down the entire border of the property. Those things don't happen as much at Cherry Valley or Crescent Lake and they're just a few miles away. Same type of areas. Just no walking trail right alongside them.
CV did have the dog in the conibear incident a few years ago.
Post by: Special T on December 26, 2022, 11:47:40 AM
Ive had some pretty mixed feelings following this discussion. I have taken something different away from it that most (I assume). A general trend from the WDFW seems to be changing its mission and land use to mirror the Wa Parks department. Dog walkers, mountain bikers, hikers and cross country skiers should take precedence over Department land purchased with sportsmen dollars for conservation and hunting purposes. While a lot of discussion on here has been made about the Prudence of this trappers choice of location, we should list a series of other restrictions and infringements that are talking place. Some of them might restrict opportunities from sportsmen because of the need to use more discretion.
1 Plenty of conflict has occurred at the Stillwater unit in the Snoqualmie valley over dog walkers interrupting and unleashed dogs running the hunting fields during the season.
2 No shooting ordnances instituted in Thurston county (and elsewhere) 300 yards, 500 yards in Kitsap county to prevent duck hunters from hunting. Safety is stated but really its noise. They tried to completely ban Duck hunting in Drayton Harbor near Blaine but failed
3 The legal private land hunting that took place on the Johnson's farm adjacent to Hwy20 for elk in Skagit county. We no longer have an open archery season on the valley floor as a result.
Stillwater is an interesting one. There's basically a walking/bike trail running right down the entire border of the property. Those things don't happen as much at Cherry Valley or Crescent Lake and they're just a few miles away. Same type of areas. Just no walking trail right alongside them.
CV did have the dog in the conibear incident a few years ago.
Part of my point is that certain lands are bought paid for or DONATED for express purpose of hunting. Anything above and beyond that is just extra. Treating WDFW lands like a State, County or City park runs contrary to the norms of this state. other states allow some kinds of hunting and trapping in those public places but Washington does not. So when the public treats these lands like a park who is at fault? Sure sportsmen should be more cautious and discreet about our actions and how they will likely be used against us. Does this mean we shouldnt hunt hunt or trap? Especially on WDFW lands? I have not fully read the 10 year recreation strategy plan for WDFW lands. It does lean harder towards multiple use treating it more like National forests used to be. If we combine this with the Wildlife for All strategy, and they have been influencing commissioners, the overall plan is laid out. https://wildlifeforall.us/why-it-matters/solutions/a-new-paradigm/ Our political enemies want to reduce Sportsmen's influence in order to snuff out hunting.
Post by: timberfaller on December 26, 2022, 01:53:15 PM
I've ranted here and in-front of WDFW at a Hunter Ed IST a few years ago. The WDFW needs to abandon and future land purchases and start selling off previous purchases!! BUT that will never happen under the cloud of stupidity of the department heads and Olympia. The Big Valley and the old LLoyds Logging ranch are prime examples(waste of monies). You'd have to know the "behind the scene players" and WHAT is now public lands and how they are used. There are to many special interest groups pushing the buttons that make these land grabs happen. WDFW is more of a "pawn" then a player.
Having to deal with all the "pest" on the Big Valley for years, it was for only one reason, I couldn't find trappers. The department was useless. I had a few early on that would come in every winter and run trap lines. Since the beavers in the valley are a "migrating" animal. Come in, make a mess, then leave, only to come back the next fall and start all over. When pelt prices disappeared, so did the trappers. Back to the trustee ole Sako. Jingles loves that gun!! :hello: I sure miss it! The Valley has drifted so far away from what it used to be, Its not a surprise to me and a host of other, the court ruling concerning the tree huggers. They've over taken the valley and they enjoy every special treatment given them which in turn brings more in. Watch out for the MVCC too!
The gals should have had the book thrown at them, but you need to know who the "power broker's" are to understand why it didn't happen!! Until the "hunting" community, unites, its only going to get worse. This is no different then the "wolf" fiasco of years ago. The WDFW didn't stand behind the land owner, they helped set him up for the fall and the rest is history. How was it a set up? A "special person" told me so and if he was ever to be called by his employer, he said he would have to be a "hostile witness"!
Wake up people! Defend Traditions, weather you are into them or not! WE will all benefit from them. Unless you are into supporting D's.
Post by: Special T on December 26, 2022, 02:05:33 PM
Post by: timberfaller on December 26, 2022, 04:35:10 PM
I still remember the day when the one eyed bandit pulled me aside and told me to go along with the sale, "it would put me in a revolving door of continued work and money". Didn't happen!! I read the new lease agreement, over a half inch thick and see the "out" clause!!! Then got to watch it unfold until I was sent packing!!
Post by: Humptulips on December 26, 2022, 07:56:28 PM
Of course, everyone should be willing to share the outdoors, but the problem arises like in this case when you run into someone that won't. Jingles was in the right from the start but gets criticism because he didn't give way. I have run into similar situations and did just that, but every situation is different and maybe it would be giving up to give way. There was snow and who's to say the problem wouldn't have followed him or maybe snow limited access, so the choices were limited for his trapping. Other things come to mind but the point is should trappers or other sportsmen lay down automatically when confronted?
Probably smart to, most of the time, but to not do so is understandable.
I'm glad she was convicted and even though a small fine, better than would happen most of the time. Now is the time to put it in the past. If she didn't learn her lesson the Judge will likely make her rue the day if she comes before him again.
Even though, some vigilante justice is talked about in the heat of the moment, that is a line that should never be crossed, and I think most feel the same way. Any talk on here about doing the lady harm IMO is just internet tough guy talk.
Go back to sharing the woods and greeting everyone you meet with a cheerful greeting. Most people are willing to get along with you IMHO.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2022, 08:29:32 PM
My view on the original topic:
Of course, everyone should be willing to share the outdoors, but the problem arises like in this case when you run into someone that won't. Jingles was in the right from the start but gets criticism because he didn't give way. I have run into similar situations and did just that, but every situation is different and maybe it would be giving up to give way. There was snow and who's to say the problem wouldn't have followed him or maybe snow limited access, so the choices were limited for his trapping. Other things come to mind but the point is should trappers or other sportsmen lay down automatically when confronted?
Probably smart to, most of the time, but to not do so is understandable.
I'm glad she was convicted and even though a small fine, better than would happen most of the time. Now is the time to put it in the past. If she didn't learn her lesson the Judge will likely make her rue the day if she comes before him again.
Even though, some vigilante justice is talked about in the heat of the moment, that is a line that should never be crossed, and I think most feel the same way. Any talk on here about doing the lady harm IMO is just internet tough guy talk.
Go back to sharing the woods and greeting everyone you meet with a cheerful greeting. Most people are willing to get along with you IMHO.
Very well said, sir.
Post by: northwesthunter84 on January 03, 2023, 09:16:41 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/photos-space-show-11-000-221546256.html
Post by: KFhunter on January 03, 2023, 10:16:37 PM
Just saw this article.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/photos-space-show-11-000-221546256.html
wear a beaver pelt and do your part to help stop global warming