Post by: dvolmer on September 17, 2022, 10:13:56 PM
Post by: Dan-o on September 17, 2022, 10:34:26 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on September 18, 2022, 02:11:44 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 18, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
Any change to the regular draw?
Yeah, the odds just got way worse :chuckle:
Post by: meatwhack on September 18, 2022, 08:26:59 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on September 18, 2022, 09:43:40 AM
Any change to the regular draw?
Yeah, the odds just got way worse :chuckle:
Fortunately I'll.be gunning for the general tag with 6 points so hopefully I'm still good.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2022, 10:02:53 AM
Post by: High Climber on September 18, 2022, 10:42:29 AM
Post by: bugs n bones on September 18, 2022, 11:00:53 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2022, 11:04:26 AM
Ouch. Do you have a link? I wonder if regular tags are going up as well or only special:yeah:
Post by: one shot kill on September 18, 2022, 11:08:00 AM
Ouch. Do you have a link? I wonder if regular tags are going up as well or only special:yeah:
:yeah:X2.
I can’t find anything in the Wyoming laws or bills that past.
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2022, 11:36:55 AM
The Task force was asked to address a few issues this year. One of them was the 90/10 issue for deer, elk, and antelope. From what I have read and understand, this failed to get past the Task Force thank heavens. Another thing that failed was an allotment of NR tags for outfitters. The outfitters are not happy so they have driven this new Special license increase. I think the task force sees a way to help the outfitters without allotting tags specifically to them. The idea is, that if a fella is willing to pay a large sum for a guided hunt, he wont mind paying a huge amount for the tag. The outfitters are having a hard time booking their clients because they have guys that want to pay them for a hunt but they cant get drawn for the tag. Outfitters feel that the regular DIY hunter wont pay the huge increase and more of their clients will be able to get tags in the special draw.
This is the jest of what I have seen and read. How accurate it is can be debated. It is my personal opinion that all of the tags in these high demand western states in the next few years will have huge price increases. Pretty much a supply and demand issue. For example, if there are a 100 permits that cost $500 each allotted and 1000 applicants apply, the state would much rather weed out 850 guys that cant afford an increase and have 150 guys applying for the 100 tags at $1200 each. There is something to be said about the money they make each year by people buying points and how many of them will drop off and the state could loose revenue that way. But I guarantee you that they have business analysts doing all the figures to come up with plans that will give them maximum income for their resources. To the state task forces, legislators, and public of that state, the NR hunter is just a source to increase the funds they want and need. Just my opinion. If the tags belonged to any one of us, we would want to get as much as we could for them probably. If you have a truck that you are selling and you know you can find someone to pay you $10,000 for it, you aren't going to sell it for $5000.
If you want to know more on this, go to the "Monster Muley" hunting forum and look under the Wyoming State page and there is a thread on there explaining it better than I can. A lot of guys on that forum are all for it if it increases their odds of gettin the tag they want sooner. I guess it all depends on how deep your pockets are. I personally hate to see it go to this. Soon we will all be paying for an opportunity to hunt the "Kings Deer"!!! But a lot of guys that are in their 50's-70's that are financially stable don't want to wait 5 to 10 to 15 years for a tag when they know there health will eventually take its toll on their hunting ability and will do just about anything to hunt a soon as they can and as much as they can before they cant due to age and health. These guys have seen tags they used to get every year or every two years go to every three to five years in a very short time and a lot of the premium tags go to OIL. I guess they want to live by Randy Newbergs quote "Hunt as much as you possibly can because you will run out of health before you will ever run out of money"!
I have a close friend who owns 6000 acre cattle ranch outside of Evanston I have access in Region K of Wyoming for deer and antelope. For 10 years I was able to hunt it every year until recently and have had some unbelievable hunts and great memories with some fantastic animals. This will be my second year of not drawing a tag and not being able to hunt the ranch. I will try to hunt it next year but the drawing odds are looking like it might not be likely. It will probably be four years before I will be able to hunt the ranch again. October 1st (opening day) will be a painful day for me this year like it was last year. Would I pay $1200 instead of the $600 to hunt the ranch more often? Im 57 years old now. That is a question I will have to figure out but I think I already know the answer.
Post by: buckfvr on September 18, 2022, 11:56:51 AM
Reduce harvest in order to improve quality of herds while maintaining as much revenue as possible. Something like that. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on September 18, 2022, 01:51:19 PM
It should equate to an overall reduction of harvest which is necessary to improve the quality of the product. In general, it seems as though that will be a requirement for all western states that put an emphasis on "quality", (except Wa.).
Reduce harvest in order to improve quality of herds while maintaining as much revenue as possible. Something like that. :twocents:
There won't be a reduction in harvest. All the licenses will still sell out, no matter what the price is. This doesn't affect the regular draw. Only the special draw. But likely will cause a big jump in points required to draw licenses in the regular draw.
Post by: jasnt on September 18, 2022, 01:58:57 PM
Post by: CaNINE on September 18, 2022, 03:02:09 PM
Post by: High Climber on September 18, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
It should equate to an overall reduction of harvest which is necessary to improve the quality of the product. In general, it seems as though that will be a requirement for all western states that put an emphasis on "quality", (except Wa.).
Reduce harvest in order to improve quality of herds while maintaining as much revenue as possible. Something like that. :twocents:
There won't be a reduction in harvest. All the licenses will still sell out, no matter what the price is. This doesn't affect the regular draw. Only the special draw. But likely will cause a big jump in points required to draw licenses in the regular draw.
I agree. The “Special” tags will be better odds for maybe a year or two then I bet it evens back out. Time to cash out in WY I hope it’s a mild winter this year
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2022, 07:11:46 PM
So I am by now ways an expert on any of this and all I know is what I have heard and read. So i will try to explain what i have heard (but it might not be totally accurate in all areas so feel free to research all you want).well put, which goes back to what I said, the king will say who gets to hunt. Very sad for our young hunters.
The Task force was asked to address a few issues this year. One of them was the 90/10 issue for deer, elk, and antelope. From what I have read and understand, this failed to get past the Task Force thank heavens. Another thing that failed was an allotment of NR tags for outfitters. The outfitters are not happy so they have driven this new Special license increase. I think the task force sees a way to help the outfitters without allotting tags specifically to them. The idea is, that if a fella is willing to pay a large sum for a guided hunt, he wont mind paying a huge amount for the tag. The outfitters are having a hard time booking their clients because they have guys that want to pay them for a hunt but they cant get drawn for the tag. Outfitters feel that the regular DIY hunter wont pay the huge increase and more of their clients will be able to get tags in the special draw.
This is the jest of what I have seen and read. How accurate it is can be debated. It is my personal opinion that all of the tags in these high demand western states in the next few years will have huge price increases. Pretty much a supply and demand issue. For example, if there are a 100 permits that cost $500 each allotted and 1000 applicants apply, the state would much rather weed out 850 guys that cant afford an increase and have 150 guys applying for the 100 tags at $1200 each. There is something to be said about the money they make each year by people buying points and how many of them will drop off and the state could loose revenue that way. But I guarantee you that they have business analysts doing all the figures to come up with plans that will give them maximum income for their resources. To the state task forces, legislators, and public of that state, the NR hunter is just a source to increase the funds they want and need. Just my opinion. If the tags belonged to any one of us, we would want to get as much as we could for them probably. If you have a truck that you are selling and you know you can find someone to pay you $10,000 for it, you aren't going to sell it for $5000.
If you want to know more on this, go to the "Monster Muley" hunting forum and look under the Wyoming State page and there is a thread on there explaining it better than I can. A lot of guys on that forum are all for it if it increases their odds of gettin the tag they want sooner. I guess it all depends on how deep your pockets are. I personally hate to see it go to this. Soon we will all be paying for an opportunity to hunt the "Kings Deer"!!! But a lot of guys that are in their 50's-70's that are financially stable don't want to wait 5 to 10 to 15 years for a tag when they know there health will eventually take its toll on their hunting ability and will do just about anything to hunt a soon as they can and as much as they can before they cant due to age and health. These guys have seen tags they used to get every year or every two years go to every three to five years in a very short time and a lot of the premium tags go to OIL. I guess they want to live by Randy Newbergs quote "Hunt as much as you possibly can because you will run out of health before you will ever run out of money"!
I have a close friend who owns 6000 acre cattle ranch outside of Evanston I have access in Region K of Wyoming for deer and antelope. For 10 years I was able to hunt it every year until recently and have had some unbelievable hunts and great memories with some fantastic animals. This will be my second year of not drawing a tag and not being able to hunt the ranch. I will try to hunt it next year but the drawing odds are looking like it might not be likely. It will probably be four years before I will be able to hunt the ranch again. October 1st (opening day) will be a painful day for me this year like it was last year. Would I pay $1200 instead of the $600 to hunt the ranch more often? Im 57 years old now. That is a question I will have to figure out but I think I already know the answer.
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2022, 08:56:56 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on September 18, 2022, 09:10:03 PM
Post by: Mulie87 on September 19, 2022, 05:45:26 AM
Post by: Stein on September 19, 2022, 07:11:26 AM
Post by: Mulie87 on September 19, 2022, 08:16:50 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on September 19, 2022, 08:44:37 AM
Post by: mcrawfordaf on September 19, 2022, 08:54:01 AM
Post by: dvolmer on September 19, 2022, 12:41:05 PM
These are all increases in NON RESIDENT applications correct?yes
Post by: whacker1 on September 19, 2022, 01:05:42 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on September 19, 2022, 02:30:58 PM
Post by: Stein on September 19, 2022, 02:39:49 PM
I hope someday we'll just put names in a hat and draw and leave it at that. No rich guy's hat, no preference points, no incentive points, no bonus points, no old guy tags, no auctions, no landowner tags, no outfitter tags, just allocate whatever you want to nonresidents and everyone has the same chance.
Post by: GASoline71 on September 19, 2022, 03:52:02 PM
Man, I love hunting MY and WY, but they might price me right out of there. Guess I have to throw my eggs in this damn state or try further Eastern states.
I hear ya. My Brother lives in TN... I think I might have to try Whitetail hunting over there soon.
Gary
Post by: Mulie87 on September 19, 2022, 04:56:39 PM
Post by: GASoline71 on September 19, 2022, 05:48:11 PM
👍 I have a cousin in Kentuky and am looking there next year.
Getting all the meat home to WA from TN is the challenge I'm looking at. Being able to harvest 2 bucks and 3 does in one year is pretty generous. Not saying I'd be killing that many deer. But having that kind of opportunity would be awesome.
Gary
Post by: jrebel on September 19, 2022, 05:51:51 PM
Everyone has the option to move to these states and make this a non issue....right? Everyone also has the ability to work a little harder and save a little more to hunt these states. I just can't find it in me to be upset at these states for managing their game and giving their residents higher priority.
Post by: mburrows on September 19, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on September 19, 2022, 06:10:28 PM
Curious what people would think if they lived in a state that was over run with out of state hunters?? That would suck equally as bad as being the out of stater that is having to pay to play and / or have less opportunity do to less out of state tags. I have a hard time being upset at higher prices or less opportunity in these states for people who don't live there. If they want to maintain quality animals and decent numbers, they have to manage the amount of hunters and game.This is not an R v NR issue. Earlier in the year when they were discussing 90/10, that would have fit the points you made above, but because the outfitters association could not get the big gov't welfare they were demanding (tag set asides) - they f'd over the residents and refused to support 90/10.
Everyone has the option to move to these states and make this a non issue....right? Everyone also has the ability to work a little harder and save a little more to hunt these states. I just can't find it in me to be upset at these states for managing their game and giving their residents higher priority.
This price increase will not increase draw odds one bit for high demand areas...except for maybe antelope for a few years and of course any hunts that are already lower demand/easier to draw. I don't like it, but I vastly prefer it to the welfare being sought by WYOGA.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 19, 2022, 07:29:48 PM
Curious what people would think if they lived in a state that was over run with out of state hunters?? That would suck equally as bad as being the out of stater that is having to pay to play and / or have less opportunity do to less out of state tags. I have a hard time being upset at higher prices or less opportunity in these states for people who don't live there. If they want to maintain quality animals and decent numbers, they have to manage the amount of hunters and game.don’t completely disagree, but I have to wonder, does this help or hurt promote hunting to younger or not rich new hunters?
Everyone has the option to move to these states and make this a non issue....right? Everyone also has the ability to work a little harder and save a little more to hunt these states. I just can't find it in me to be upset at these states for managing their game and giving their residents higher priority.
Post by: sagerat on September 19, 2022, 08:09:47 PM
Curious what people would think if they lived in a state that was over run with out of state hunters?? That would suck equally as bad as being the out of stater that is having to pay to play and / or have less opportunity do to less out of state tags. I have a hard time being upset at higher prices or less opportunity in these states for people who don't live there. If they want to maintain quality animals and decent numbers, they have to manage the amount of hunters and game.don’t completely disagree, but I have to wonder, does this help or hurt promote hunting to younger or not rich new hunters?
Everyone has the option to move to these states and make this a non issue....right? Everyone also has the ability to work a little harder and save a little more to hunt these states. I just can't find it in me to be upset at these states for managing their game and giving their residents higher priority.
:yeah: In the long run it’s going to take its toll for sure. It shouldn’t be about money but that’s the road we’re all going down…
Post by: Jpmiller on September 19, 2022, 09:49:47 PM
Curious what people would think if they lived in a state that was over run with out of state hunters?? That would suck equally as bad as being the out of stater that is having to pay to play and / or have less opportunity do to less out of state tags. I have a hard time being upset at higher prices or less opportunity in these states for people who don't live there. If they want to maintain quality animals and decent numbers, they have to manage the amount of hunters and game.don’t completely disagree, but I have to wonder, does this help or hurt promote hunting to younger or not rich new hunters?
Everyone has the option to move to these states and make this a non issue....right? Everyone also has the ability to work a little harder and save a little more to hunt these states. I just can't find it in me to be upset at these states for managing their game and giving their residents higher priority.
:yeah: In the long run it’s going to take its toll for sure. It shouldn’t be about money but that’s the road we’re all going down…
Is the argument there should be no special draw, or that the special draw should only be more expensive to the point that it's not prohibitive to you? I don't mean any offense or to be rude but I'd the argument is it should be there but you don't want yourself priced out of it that's a hard position to defend in my book. Not aiming this at anyone in particular.
Post by: haftard on September 19, 2022, 10:19:38 PM
we should be channeling your anger towards Texas who still considers elk as exotic.
Post by: dvolmer on September 19, 2022, 10:44:45 PM
The way I see the facts is that the animals belong to the residents of the state. The average person hunting in his or her state of residency should have the opportunity to hunt the animals that reside in that state at a reasonable and customary cost. In pretty much all of the states that I can think of, this is the case. Some states more than others but no one is going into the poor house to hunt the state they reside in and everyone has the opportunity to hunt what the state they chose to live in has to offer. When you go hunt in other states, you are hunting other peoples animals and their property. Here in Washington we don't have to deal with out of state hunters. Anyone that wants to hunt this state and doesn't have some special reason, like private property or a personal reason, is crazy. Way to many hunters, not near enough public land, and moderate to low animal numbers compared to amount of hunters in the field. Just imagine if you have been putting in for a big bull permit in Washington were you reside for 25 years like a lot of you have with zero success and they were holding out and giving 20 some percent of those tags to non-residents. People would be going nuts! Just imagine if one or two of the Wenaha tags or Dayton tags were held for non-residents. Like some of you have said, if you want to hunt Wyoming for cheap then move there. No one is stopping you. Wyoming has its problems. Lower wages, poor schools, crazy weather, and I could go on and on. We choose what we want in life with its advantages and its disadvantages and that includes our professions and were we want to live.
Now with all that said, I hate to see the price increases. But I also think of what I would want if I lived in Wyoming and those animals belonged to me and all of the other residents of the state. Maybe I would want to get rid of all out of state hunters and get two or three buck and bull tags a year??? Problem is that a large state like Wyoming with just over 500,000 total residents cant support a decent game dept and manage the animals with such limited resources. So My personal preference if I was a resident would be for my state to sell the NR tags at the highest cost that they could bring and lower the out of state tags down to a number that would just bring in the revenue to have a quality game dept that would support the animals and the hunters in the state of Wyoming. So you can see why the push for a 90/10 and a push for higher tag costs is there. Wyoming could easily go to 90/10 and double the cost of the 10% NR tags they would sell and still sell all of the tags and receive the same amount of revenue or even more they are receiving now. Now as a Washington state resident I don't like that at all personally, but then again, they are not my animals. They belong to the residents of Wyoming. Man this hurts me to say that but it is the truth. We need to empathize with them and put ourselves in their shoes. Just some thoughts from someone that doesn't know much and tries to come up with ideas to sell it to my wife that we need to move there! By the way, it isn't working at all!!!
Post by: jasnt on September 20, 2022, 07:33:32 AM
there is no doubt that this is a very complex issue with many factors affecting the outcome. Lots of opinions and ideas. Sometimes the facts can tell the best story even though they don't always tell the story the way we want to hear it. Some have made a lot of comments that are very interesting and thought provoking.Well said.
The way I see the facts is that the animals belong to the residents of the state. The average person hunting in his or her state of residency should have the opportunity to hunt the animals that reside in that state at a reasonable and customary cost. In pretty much all of the states that I can think of, this is the case. Some states more than others but no one is going into the poor house to hunt the state they reside in and everyone has the opportunity to hunt what the state they chose to live in has to offer. When you go hunt in other states, you are hunting other peoples animals and their property. Here in Washington we don't have to deal with out of state hunters. Anyone that wants to hunt this state and doesn't have some special reason, like private property or a personal reason, is crazy. Way to many hunters, not near enough public land, and moderate to low animal numbers compared to amount of hunters in the field. Just imagine if you have been putting in for a big bull permit in Washington were you reside for 25 years like a lot of you have with zero success and they were holding out and giving 20 some percent of those tags to non-residents. People would be going nuts! Just imagine if one or two of the Wenaha tags or Dayton tags were held for non-residents. Like some of you have said, if you want to hunt Wyoming for cheap then move there. No one is stopping you. Wyoming has its problems. Lower wages, poor schools, crazy weather, and I could go on and on. We choose what we want in life with its advantages and its disadvantages and that includes our professions and were we want to live.
Now with all that said, I hate to see the price increases. But I also think of what I would want if I lived in Wyoming and those animals belonged to me and all of the other residents of the state. Maybe I would want to get rid of all out of state hunters and get two or three buck and bull tags a year??? Problem is that a large state like Wyoming with just over 500,000 total residents cant support a decent game dept and manage the animals with such limited resources. So My personal preference if I was a resident would be for my state to sell the NR tags at the highest cost that they could bring and lower the out of state tags down to a number that would just bring in the revenue to have a quality game dept that would support the animals and the hunters in the state of Wyoming. So you can see why the push for a 90/10 and a push for higher tag costs is there. Wyoming could easily go to 90/10 and double the cost of the 10% NR tags they would sell and still sell all of the tags and receive the same amount of revenue or even more they are receiving now. Now as a Washington state resident I don't like that at all personally, but then again, they are not my animals. They belong to the residents of Wyoming. Man this hurts me to say that but it is the truth. We need to empathize with them and put ourselves in their shoes. Just some thoughts from someone that doesn't know much and tries to come up with ideas to sell it to my wife that we need to move there! By the way, it isn't working at all!!!
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on September 20, 2022, 09:55:42 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 20, 2022, 10:15:25 AM
As a non-resident... bummer. Then again, I don't do special draws so it doesn't affect me (yet) :dunno:
Post by: Stein on September 20, 2022, 10:38:50 AM
The question that isn't asked is whether the allocation of a public wildlife resource should be to the highest bidder or if it should be made available at a cost that allows wider participation? You could argue there are other options, but a US citizen in Florida isn't going to hunt elk at home just like the WY resident isn't going to catch Grouper in the Wind River or dig razor clams on the Pacific Ocean.
If WY wanted to limit the number of NR tags to allow more opportunity for residents, that wouldn't make me happy but I would completely understand. Instituting a tiered system where wealthy people get to cut in front of people without the means is something I can't get in support of and I don't think it will be positive for the hunting community in general.
In my mind, it's the same problem we are looking at with the Discovery Pass, NW Forest Pass, WDFW pass, whatever other pass, sticker and what not. Historically, the state paid for the management of their lands and resources and the people used it for little to no charge. Now, the state doesn't want to pay, so it's passed directly onto the user. This results in higher fees along with pricing people out of what used to be near universal access. The wildlife agencies get fewer and fewer dollars from their legislatures and the result are these crazy schemes where we figure out how to justify ridiculous increase in user fees.
If fewer people participate, hunters will continue the slide and be even a lesser percentage of the population and at some point the question will be asked why do we hunt these things when it's only wealthy people running around doing grip and grins?
We are heading toward the point where it is compared to going skiing or Disney. Well, a bunch of people will never go to Disney because it's out of reach and I would hate for hunting and fishing to become equivalent of something many people will never be able to do.
Post by: mcrawfordaf on September 20, 2022, 10:55:08 AM
It seems to me all western states are upping the price for their NR tags - special draw or not. Wouldn't it be better to keep your money at home and invest in your own state? Sure much can't be done with Inslee in office, so fine put it towards political movements to remove him so we can get sound WDFW commissioners on the board.
And there seems to be this idea that hunter populations are going down. Tell that to the pumpkin patches of 121 and 117.
https://www.gohunt.com/content/the-life/hunter-numbers-dwindling-across-the-us--not-in-the-west (https://www.gohunt.com/content/the-life/hunter-numbers-dwindling-across-the-us--not-in-the-west)
So what if a state wants to get more $$$ from folks who have the means to travel out of state to hunt :dunno: especially for a special draw. And I see the argument that it limits youth hunters. Should youth hunters really be applying for these special draws? Or are the parents of the youth hunters upset?
I've been accumulating points for WY for antelope with my brother for a few years now as well. But we're going for a normal NR tag - no special draw.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on September 20, 2022, 11:40:03 AM
Post by: whacker1 on September 21, 2022, 03:40:04 PM
I am thinking something along the lines of a notification over resident draw process, i.e. earlier. last year the early notification of elk draws went away. i understand the why that happened, but it used to be that you could apply for elk, and view the results before the deer and antelope application was due.
Maybe the answer is some additional point guarding options, perhaps?
it takes a very strategic draw to apply in multiple states with lots of money & sweat equity(stress & strategy) in the game and not have a way to cover oneself. if you are too guarded, you never draw anything. What i see here is that the state of Wyoming gets additional dollars from those that draw, but what do the non-residents get in return.
i am posing the question to everyone, is there something we should be lobbying for that is achievable and makes logistical sense?
Post by: bobcat on September 21, 2022, 03:58:11 PM
Post by: Bob33 on September 21, 2022, 04:35:35 PM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
Post by: bobcat on September 21, 2022, 04:45:52 PM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 21, 2022, 04:57:27 PM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
They’ll still sell out. That was the point I made earlier - the price is elastic and they are testing the boundary. Can’t blame them
Post by: whacker1 on September 21, 2022, 04:57:51 PM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
i also dis-agree. They made the special more exclusive, but if they take / take, and never give any reason for the non-residents to come back, we won't (specifically me) i hunt plenty of states. i can apply $2000 to a landowner tag in another state in lieu of paying wyoming. So it will likely be that i consider not applying after my next draw. i have quite a few deer points and antelope points. i drew elk once, and likely wouldn't apply again after the next draw.
It doesn't hurt to ask for something and make sure the legislators know that there are some of us that will quit paying. They need to know that there market share is limited at some point. the question is: what do we as non-residents want to ask for?
Post by: dvolmer on September 21, 2022, 10:44:11 PM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
i also dis-agree. They made the special more exclusive, but if they take / take, and never give any reason for the non-residents to come back, we won't (specifically me) i hunt plenty of states. i can apply $2000 to a landowner tag in another state in lieu of paying wyoming. So it will likely be that i consider not applying after my next draw. i have quite a few deer points and antelope points. i drew elk once, and likely wouldn't apply again after the next draw.
It doesn't hurt to ask for something and make sure the legislators know that there are some of us that will quit paying. They need to know that there market share is limited at some point. the question is: what do we as non-residents want to ask for?
The only thing that would make them take a step back and make corrections is if they aren't able to sell all of the NR tags. Prices would have to get really high before that happens. If all of the tags are sold, the businesses are still getting the same number of customers. There are a lot more people than most people think that will pay a lot more to insure they hunt every year and not sit out a year. Wasn't very long ago at all that you could go to Wyoming and hunt deer, antelope, and general elk every year or every two years. If you split it up you could defiantly have gone every year. Heck, It wasn't that long ago that you could hunt Region G for deer with 3 points. Now you are looking at like 9 points or more! It sucks, but it is exactly what is going to happen. It wont be long that a regular deer will be $600-$700 and the special be at $1200 or more. Especially since they have so many NR hunters by the "you know whats" because they will balk at the higher prices but wont quit because they have so many points already and wont want to walk away from them and the money they have already spent on them. You will come to see that hunting is an addiction and not a sport ;)
There are tons of things that have promoted all of this. Cause and affects are huge in so many ways. If you were the kind of guy that hunted other states as a NR 10 or more years ago, you have seen it all go down the tubes. If you did all of your own research, scouting, and put your blood sweat and tears into it, you have seen it all go to hell. You can thank many things and reasons but the main ones are all of the things that we think are all so great now. OnX maps, Hunting fool, hunting TV, etc, etc, etc. Most of the guys that have tried to make a living in the sport they love have sold their soles to the devil. Don't get me wrong, I have most of them and use them. But overall, if you were already hunting and doing all of your own research, they have been your demise. When I get emails continually from OnX, Eastmans, and GoHunt telling me to attend their seminars on how to draw for tags in this state and that state, when I watch Randy Newbergs youtube channel on how to draw this tag and that tag, and I could go on and on. I even get email warnings that I need to apply today because some states deadline has arrived! They have spoon fed the dummies. It actually was better before it went to "Big Tech" in my opinion. Just some rantings from an old man! I constantly tell my grandkids that life was better before the Smart-Phone and the internet. They think Im crazy. Maybe I am. But for a guy that lived back before it all and now lives with it all, it was better back then. Don't get me wrong, I like going to youtube and seeing how to replace my fuel pump. But life was still better before it all, and that includes hunting too.
Post by: Stein on September 22, 2022, 06:28:43 AM
The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
i also dis-agree. They made the special more exclusive, but if they take / take, and never give any reason for the non-residents to come back, we won't (specifically me) i hunt plenty of states. i can apply $2000 to a landowner tag in another state in lieu of paying wyoming. So it will likely be that i consider not applying after my next draw. i have quite a few deer points and antelope points. i drew elk once, and likely wouldn't apply again after the next draw.
It doesn't hurt to ask for something and make sure the legislators know that there are some of us that will quit paying. They need to know that there market share is limited at some point. the question is: what do we as non-residents want to ask for?
You are proposing they won't sell out of NR tags (both special and regular applications). This only affects the cost of the special draw, even if they have 0 applicants for a tag, it will roll into the regular draw.
The demand for tags far surpasses the supply except for a few leftover tags and I don't see that changing anytime soon. It surely hasn't for their neighbor states.
The department will simply say we either have to charge the NRs or raise the resident prices. The legislature will say charge the NRs, they don't vote and I don't care what they think.
Post by: Bob33 on September 22, 2022, 07:28:24 AM
If that's true why does Wyoming offer any non-resident licenses? Why not make it 100/0 if they don't care about non-residents?The state of Wyoming isn't going to care what non residents want. It's not their concern. I don't like any price increases either but they could choose to allocate zero tags to non residents. It's totally up to the state of Wyoming. We're actually very fortunate that we get 20% of the deer and antelope licenses, and residents get only 80%.I’m not sure that’s true. They should care about businesses and the loss of revenues they will incur if fewer non-residents visit their state. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them care more about their resident businesses than their resident hunters.
But I don't think this increase in cost for the special draw will have any affect on the number of non resident hunters.
i also dis-agree. They made the special more exclusive, but if they take / take, and never give any reason for the non-residents to come back, we won't (specifically me) i hunt plenty of states. i can apply $2000 to a landowner tag in another state in lieu of paying wyoming. So it will likely be that i consider not applying after my next draw. i have quite a few deer points and antelope points. i drew elk once, and likely wouldn't apply again after the next draw.
It doesn't hurt to ask for something and make sure the legislators know that there are some of us that will quit paying. They need to know that there market share is limited at some point. the question is: what do we as non-residents want to ask for?
You are proposing they won't sell out of NR tags (both special and regular applications). This only affects the cost of the special draw, even if they have 0 applicants for a tag, it will roll into the regular draw.
The demand for tags far surpasses the supply except for a few leftover tags and I don't see that changing anytime soon. It surely hasn't for their neighbor states.
The department will simply say we either have to charge the NRs or raise the resident prices. The legislature will say charge the NRs, they don't vote and I don't care what they think.
Post by: Stein on September 22, 2022, 08:23:58 AM
Non-residents buy expensive tags, stay in motels, buy gas, eat at restaurants and that is the only reason the legislature cares about them at all. They are elected to represent their constituents, not the rest of the country.
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 09:19:42 AM
However, with that said, I think I am still going to write the Legislators and give them my thoughts. I am sure it won't do much good, but I want to let them know that there are people paying attention and that they will see people cash out their points and no longer play the game. I suspect after many folks waiting for 20 years to draw an elk tag, that they will no longer play in the more difficult draws going forward. With the Special draws being more financially unattainable for many the regular draw odds will get worse.
I think that is the outfitters goals. narrow that pool of people playing the higher stakes draw and their clients will be able to draw more often.
With all that said, I still want to let them know that the rest of the world sees the money grab and that if they want to continue to have people support their department through non-resident applications that they better think about providing additional value. The commodity can only stay the same for so long, we will see another recession and applications will go down. We will see the baby boomers fully exit the hunting community over the next 20 years.
All those that say that the regular draw is still available, but with additional cost and additional years of applying based on a larger volume of people unwilling to pay for the special. it will take longer to draw in the preference draw.
Maybe i advocate for a larger pool of tags go to the regular draw instead of the special draw. i doubt that would happen, but that would make the exclusive pool less valuable. I am truly spit balling ideas, which would be a better conversation around a campfire. But saying nothing is not the option i am going to run with.
Post by: Colville on September 22, 2022, 09:24:13 AM
"The only thing that would make them take a step back and make corrections is if they aren't able to sell all of the NR tags."
They could increase these proposed rates 50% more and they'll sell 100% of the tags. If you sell apples and you have 50 of them and a line of 500 wanting apples, do you keep selling at $.50 each or do you keep raising the price until you have 50 apples and 50 people in line? Providing for resident's of other states is not the job of a legislature. Maximize revenue, maximize resident opportunity, minimize citizen cost and use the flush resources to improve management. I appreciate that the way this is going is making NR hunting difficult for some but you have no right to hunt another state at all. Too few animals for too many hunters. If hunting is very seriously a lifestyle priority, time to look for work and a home in a state with more resident opportunity.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on September 22, 2022, 09:49:48 AM
Post by: hunter399 on September 22, 2022, 09:56:23 AM
But hasn't Washington been charging big dollars for years for NR hunters to hunt here.
With no cap on the amount of NR hunters.
Maybe we should be looking into the percentage for Washington.
Maybe that's why our state wildlife and hunting suck here.
Maybe Washington should fall in line and stop being so greedy ,and protect our wildlife like other states are doing.
I also feel the same about permits hunts ,multi-season,here in Washington.
Washington is selling our wildlife for a profit.
Most Washington hunters are ok with that,but the end results is the bumpy dirt road we are headed down.
Mule deer that are declining every year,loss of youth opportunities.
Honestly I think it's good that other states are putting caps on NR hunting,or just charging big dollars.
Just maybe some hunters that are forced to stay here in Washington,will go hunt,see how bad shape our wildlife is in.
Hopefully be a little more proactive here in Washington about what's going on ,or the "why" is hunting so bad here in our home state.
Post by: Stein on September 22, 2022, 11:40:37 AM
Regarding learning to hunt at home, it's fairly difficult to learn how to elk hunt in Florida. Most states don't have elk hunting. Most of the country can't hunt elk at home. Or mule deer. Or moose. Or mountain goats. Or bison. Or sailfish, grouper, salmon, dungeness crab, whatever.
Nobody thinks twice about going fishing while on vacation but for some reason out of state hunting is something some think maybe shouldn't even happen.
It's going to turn out of state hunting into a rich man's sport which means the majority of the potential new hunters (young and old) won't have access to what is a public resource.
Post by: MountainWalk on September 22, 2022, 12:02:37 PM
You think that Wyoming shouldn’t have their own residents best interest in mind? You think Wyoming is just an enclave of rich elk hunters? You wanna hunt there so bad and can’t stand hunting your own state and your own elk? Why not move there?
How much would an Alaskan coastal brown bear hunt cost a non resident? 15-30 g’s? Well, as a resident, I get to hunt them every year for just the cost of the tag. Because I live here. I like how ak’s constitution makes it clear that the wildlife is managed for resident hunters first and foremost. When changes are made, nonresident hunters aren’t the priority.
I agree with a comment above. This has nothing to do with “ hunter recruitment “. That’s one lame excuse. Bottom line- you want to hunt Wyoming so bad on the cheap, move there. You want to hunt Alaska on the cheap? Move there. That’s what makes America great; if you don’t like the place you are at or think some place better, you are free to move there. I have little sympathy for well heeled hunters complaining about prices in places they don’t live.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 22, 2022, 12:10:23 PM
I get a chuckle out of the folks talking about how WY is catering to the rich and hunting is geared towards rich folks. You guys are dressing up in kuiu head to toe, buying browning and kimber rifles topped with Swarovski rifle scopes, spending all year buying bullets and powders looking for that perfect load, driving nice new model trucks, extolling the virtues of zamberlain boots, pulling fifth wheel trailers and you have the gall to complain about people that have having more financial means than you. Hahaha!Lets take it a bit further than, how do you feel about raising the non resident prices to $4,000 or 10,000? How about just no non resident hunting allowed?
You think that Wyoming shouldn’t have their own residents best interest in mind? You think Wyoming is just an enclave of rich elk hunters? You wanna hunt there so bad and can’t stand hunting your own state and your own elk? Why not move there?
How much would an Alaskan coastal brown bear hunt cost a non resident? 15-30 g’s? Well, as a resident, I get to hunt them every year for just the cost of the tag. Because I live here. I like how ak’s constitution makes it clear that the wildlife is managed for resident hunters first and foremost. When changes are made, nonresident hunters aren’t the priority.
I agree with a comment above. This has nothing to do with “ hunter recruitment “. That’s one lame excuse. Bottom line- you want to hunt Wyoming so bad on the cheap, move there. You want to hunt Alaska on the cheap? Move there. That’s what makes America great; if you don’t like the place you are at or think some place better, you are free to move there. I have little sympathy for well heeled hunters complaining about prices in places they don’t live.
Post by: MountainWalk on September 22, 2022, 12:14:01 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 22, 2022, 12:18:31 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on September 22, 2022, 12:23:27 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 22, 2022, 12:29:02 PM
O, they won’t go away; you just have to pay more for it, just like everything else nowadays. Weigh your priorities. Mine? Moose and brown bear hunting every year and killing lots of wolves.Living in Alaska would be great for certain things. I used to get my wife and daughter special permits for here in my home state, used to put them in for everything. Quit doing that about 6-8 years ago because the cost, We'd drop easily $900 just for our home state. No way can we afford to hunt here and another state, but Idaho used to be affordable, no more. I see lots of traditions that won't even be started now, and people won't even know what they are missing out on.
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 12:30:48 PM
Neil, you think this will improve odds in the special draw? Most folks I’ve been conversing with are assuming the odds won’t change much. I’m at max for deer and elk, I’m in it for the long haul. I’m also expecting Montana and others to follow suit with the price increases. Interesting times for sure
Will you be in for the long haul a second time after you burn your max points?
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on September 22, 2022, 01:07:34 PM
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 01:20:52 PM
However as it relates to Elk, i can see them going to Wyoming a time or two for a lesser quality tag, but probably less likely not going to pay $1950 on the second time around.
More people with mid-level deer points and antelope points will likely apply in the regular instead of the special. i think this will be the most noteable change as compared to elk, which will likely stay more static.
Antelope currently $326 and $614 in special
New fees as i understand it will remain the same for regular draw and $1200 for the special.
How many people will pay $1200 for a middle of the road antelope or Deer unit? are they more inclined to wait a year or 2 longer to go to the same unit under regular prices vs $1200 to go sooner?
Here is my deer example.
Preference Point draw
Region G "regular" took 9 points, some drew with greater than 8 points.
Region G "special" took 8 points, some drew with greater than 7 points.
Random draw
Region G "regular" deer tag in 2021 - draw odds 52 out 1509 first choice applicants. 3.45%
Region G "special" deer tag in 2021 - draw odds 35 out 502, which is closer to 6%
i would suggest to you that there will be fewer applicants year over year at $1200 for a region G deer tag in the special draw, but those same people will be applying in the "Regular" draw until they can burn their points. And depending on age of the hunter/applicant, may not play for 10 more years on the second go round to draw a Region G deer tag.
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 01:28:34 PM
Ya I’ll keep on keepin on. I’d gladly pay the $1200 for the special antelope license to go hunt my favorite unit every year. Seems pretty mixed, that’s why I asked. Will you? What’s the consensus from the folks you’ve talked to?
Definitely no consensus. it is all over the board.
i am on the fence. so many other things I would like to do in addition to Wyoming. I will probably burn the deer points in the next 3-4 or so years, but will see what the draw odds look like after this next season. i think the differential between regular and special will create a bigger differential between the two categories and odds will get better for special and worse for regular.
i pay a lot of money to hunt different states, so i would likely shift my focus to states i would rather hunt at a greater desire for the next few years. I think it puts a lot of guys in the boat of making it near unaffordable, so it is either a one hit wonder for the 1 tag they drew in the special or adding length of time in the regular draw and they are likely never to go back to Wyoming again. i know people that have already said that for the 20 years they have acrued points. they are likely never going to wyoming for that species again.
i will likely be in the regular draw for elk in the general in the next couple of years as i can't acrue enough points fast enough for the tags i would like to hunt in the short term.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on September 22, 2022, 01:51:07 PM
As a aside, I see Montana is more than likely gonna make folks choose a weapon. Gonna see some big changes in multiple states.
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 01:56:03 PM
Next year will be crazy as folks rush to “burn” their points. I suspect special draws will get quite a bit better. The greedy side of me is happy. I don’t enjoy “hunting” so much anymore as I love “quality” hunts.
As a aside, I see Montana is more than likely gonna make folks choose a weapon. Gonna see some big changes in multiple states.
10.4....i also see the writing on the wall for choosing a weapon in Montana or at least for more units as time goes on. Regulating foot traffic threw draws.
i still enjoy both the Quality and the hunting. it is quite possible that a bunch of folks try to burn their points in 2023. Elk application is still early and likely won't change fees until 2024 based on when the Legislature can get together.
Post by: dvolmer on September 22, 2022, 02:22:55 PM
Post by: whacker1 on September 22, 2022, 02:26:40 PM
I wonder how long it will be until the new rates are applied??? I have no idea.
i am thinking 2024, because i don't think the legislature meets until January through March. The elk applications are still due early in 2023, and deer /antelope in May of 2023. But speculation on my part, that is just my logical approach to bureaucratic process
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on September 22, 2022, 02:42:14 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on September 22, 2022, 02:55:02 PM
I get a chuckle out of the folks talking about how WY is catering to the rich and hunting is geared towards rich folks. You guys are dressing up in kuiu head to toe, buying browning and kimber rifles topped with Swarovski rifle scopes, spending all year buying bullets and powders looking for that perfect load, driving nice new model trucks, extolling the virtues of zamberlain boots, pulling fifth wheel trailers and you have the gall to complain about people that have having more financial means than you. Hahaha!
You think that Wyoming shouldn’t have their own residents best interest in mind? You think Wyoming is just an enclave of rich elk hunters? You wanna hunt there so bad and can’t stand hunting your own state and your own elk? Why not move there?
How much would an Alaskan coastal brown bear hunt cost a non resident? 15-30 g’s? Well, as a resident, I get to hunt them every year for just the cost of the tag. Because I live here. I like how ak’s constitution makes it clear that the wildlife is managed for resident hunters first and foremost. When changes are made, nonresident hunters aren’t the priority.
I agree with a comment above. This has nothing to do with “ hunter recruitment “. That’s one lame excuse. Bottom line- you want to hunt Wyoming so bad on the cheap, move there. You want to hunt Alaska on the cheap? Move there. That’s what makes America great; if you don’t like the place you are at or think some place better, you are free to move there. I have little sympathy for well heeled hunters complaining about prices in places they don’t live.
Thank you for saying this. Human entitlement is becoming off the charts. People pointing the finger at their employer for not paying enough, yet will stand there telling you about it with a beer on their hand, cigarette in their mouth, new I-phone, and driving a nice truck. But it's the employers fault they can't afford stuff they think they deserve. If the price of a tag goes up $1 ,000, adjust your budget on things you don't need and boom, there ya go. If you allow your traditions to die because another state charges more than you are wanting to pay, don't go pointing the finger when you use your money for stuff you don't need
Post by: mburrows on September 22, 2022, 03:13:20 PM
I’m in the camp of I don’t like it. But I understand it.
Heard a quote from another hunter that moved to Montana years ago for the outdoor opportunities. Something along the lines of he may not have to pay for out of out of state tags, but he also makes way less living here than he would living somewhere like say, Western, WA. Could easily say the same for WY.
It’s simple economics, supply and demand aka capitalism.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on September 22, 2022, 03:30:43 PM