Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 08:09:10 AM
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Post by: huntandjeep on October 19, 2022, 08:10:21 AM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 19, 2022, 08:17:32 AM
:bash:
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
I could not agree more!!!
Post by: buckfvr on October 19, 2022, 08:21:57 AM
Post by: Rutnbuxnbulls on October 19, 2022, 08:25:14 AM
Post by: Tikka Bird Dog on October 19, 2022, 08:40:57 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on October 19, 2022, 08:44:31 AM
:bash:So, ripping anyone with a different belief on this on the open forum seemed like the best idea?
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Post by: gutsnthegrass on October 19, 2022, 08:45:23 AM
:bash:
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Couldn’t agree more!
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 08:54:29 AM
:bash:So, ripping anyone with a different belief on this on the open forum seemed like the best idea?
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Yep! I didn’t single a single person out, and I didn’t trash anyone’s thread, but I am speaking my mind.
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 09:01:41 AM
Expecting hunters to abstain from filling lawful doe tags is a bit much to ask, especially the weekend warriors who've no idea the year to year population trends.
Post by: bobcat on October 19, 2022, 09:06:09 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on October 19, 2022, 09:09:05 AM
So trashing all success threads with a doe or cow in it is cool. Got it.:bash:So, ripping anyone with a different belief on this on the open forum seemed like the best idea?
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Yep! I didn’t single a single person out, and I didn’t trash anyone’s thread, but I am speaking my mind.
Post by: hunter399 on October 19, 2022, 09:09:23 AM
You would always and I mean always see at minimum a few doe .
Now the whole area is nothing,no deer at all.
On top of that there hasn't been a doe season for three years.
Ya predator,bluetongue, all this.
But sometimes it does cross my mind ,how can someone shoot the last doe.
No doe
No buck will ever pass through the area.
It's crazy man.
Honestly not sure what can be done about it.
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 09:11:13 AM
Need I go on?
It all contributes to less critters and higher success rate.
But wait, those things only apply to ‘the other guy’, because ‘we’ are the high morale standard ‘righteous’ ones that are correct in all we say and do.
Carry on!
Post by: 92xj on October 19, 2022, 09:12:17 AM
Post by: hunter399 on October 19, 2022, 09:12:55 AM
Should be spear and knife only. No more of these 100 yard plus shots. Walk in only to all public lands. No optics allowed at all. No trail cams allowed at all. No cell phones either. No baiting AT ALL.I didn't see multi season in there .... :chuckle: :chuckle:
Need I go on?
It all contributes to less critters and higher success rate.
But wait, I those things only apply to ‘the other guy’, because ‘we’ are the high morale standard ‘righteous’ ones that are correct in all we say and do.
Carry on!
Post by: jstone on October 19, 2022, 09:13:08 AM
Post by: hunter399 on October 19, 2022, 09:14:05 AM
Last I heard, you can't make a baby without sperm.Sperm seems to find its way as long as there is a vagina to put it in.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on October 19, 2022, 09:15:30 AM
And, I know of a few folks who put in for doe tags to simply fill the freezer. Hunting is subsistence, not sport.
Post by: Sandberm on October 19, 2022, 09:16:52 AM
So my little corner of the world needs more bucks. Either that or they were all at the bar having drinks after a successful season of chasing tail .
Post by: Angry Perch on October 19, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
If you want to solve a population problem, then solve a population problem.
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 09:20:16 AM
I hunt with a longbow, when I do hunt, since I chose not to even kill a buck for the last few years, but I figure that’s asking a lot for most hunters, so I will stick with not shooting does.
I do hike in 10 to 14 miles on average
I don’t own a cell phone
I don’t bait
I don’t own a trail camera.
Oh crap, I do own and use binos. I guess I have some improving to do.
There are alot of things contributing. My point here. Stop shooting the baby makers.
Post by: MountainWalk on October 19, 2022, 09:22:04 AM
For areas capable of sustaining some female predation, a three or four day window would be helpful.
In general, I agree with the very first post. I go through phases where I am away from this forum for months or sometimes years, and every time I come back, it gets even whinier and hopeless with everyone blaming everything but themselves for the sad shape of affairs down there. But by all means, type out a three paragraph post about what pack you “run” ( :rolleyes:).
Thank God I moved to Alaska.
Post by: Longfield1 on October 19, 2022, 09:24:18 AM
I hunted eastern washington where you can still harvest doe tags with archery equipment. The past 3 years combined amounted to 10 does taken from this GMU (more than 25+ were legal bucks). Am i the problem with declining deer? I will still continue to legally hunt. I will always strive for a buck over a doe, But if a doe tag is an option then i'm taking it.
Its unfortunate your so frustrated and upset with hunters like me, we should be on the same side.
Post by: MountainWalk on October 19, 2022, 09:26:53 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on October 19, 2022, 09:28:38 AM
Everyone can choose their own ethics and those ethics will change from day one of hunting to year 35 of hunting.
I believe it was Aldo Leopold who said there are five stages to hunting.
Shooting Stage.
Limiting-Out Stage.
Trophy Stage.
Method Stage.
Sportsman Stage.
Every hunter is at a different stage.
Nobody should be called out for doing what is legal and calling someone out for different ethics is no good either. Not saying that is what you are doing Bone.
When I have a problem with the regulations and something being allowed that I don't believe in, I take it to the commission and advocate for change.
Years ago Swakane was overrun with hunters because it was the only unit in eastern washington that had a november OTC doe hunt. I advocated that they make it buck only and the next year the hunter numbers in that unit dropped as hunters dispersed to the surrounding units.
I know someone is going to say swakane is still overrun with hunters but I assure you there was a significant increase when it became the only unit with an OTC doe opportunity and it dropped when the OTC doe opportunity was removed. I jumped through the hoops and did the public request for information on hunter reports specifically for that unit.
Post by: Longfield1 on October 19, 2022, 09:29:50 AM
If all it takes is killing something to keep a kid interested in hunting, then maybe that kid is hunting for the wrong reason.
Not killing per se. But most people love hunting for the whole experience. The biggest part of that experience involves harvesting and caring for and consuming game. The success of hunting i think comes down to harvesting and animal or not.
Post by: kramman on October 19, 2022, 09:31:04 AM
In a perfect world it would be unit to unit based on science.
Post by: jackelope on October 19, 2022, 09:35:04 AM
If all it takes is killing something to keep a kid interested in hunting, then maybe that kid is hunting for the wrong reason.
There’s a lot more to hunting than killing, but the 100’s or 1000’s of threads on here about how much the hunting sucks in our state goes to show that some success once in a while is a big part of keeping enthusiasm and interest alive in hunting. I’d quit hunting too if I never killed anything. I don’t know how people can go 20 years without killing a deer and still keep doing it.
I think the No doe killing, as mentioned above, is very applicable on a unit to unit basis. It should be used as a conservation tool when needed. I think Rainier10’s swakane example is a great one. There’s no reason people should be killing mule deer does on the winter range anywhere in Washington if you ask me. I don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t kill does” is the way to go though either. There’s a time and a place and a reason to do it.
My .02
Post by: hunter399 on October 19, 2022, 09:44:02 AM
No shame in legal harvest doe or buck.
Post by: bobcat on October 19, 2022, 09:45:52 AM
The GMU in which she drew the youth permit has a very high population of deer yet still only has 15 youth doe permits. It's probably around 90% private land. The deer she harvested was just under three miles from our house, which I very much appreciated with the high gas prices and the fact that my truck gets about 13 miles per gallon. We hunted three days, Saturday, Sunday, and then the following Friday.
I really don't think taking 15 does out of this entire GMU will have any effect on overall numbers. Actually it won't even be that many since the success rate won't be 100%. Last year it was 42% and only 5 deer were taken out of 15 permits.
I do understand mule deer are not doing as well, but blacktails are very abundant in many areas, and harvesting some does is just proper wildlife management.
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 09:51:18 AM
:yeah: No more deer hunting.
If you want to solve a population problem, then solve a population problem.
Do NOT bring logic or reason into any forum.
Are you crazy?!?!
Post by: Sandberm on October 19, 2022, 09:51:55 AM
Every year I am amazed at the awareness the does have. There sense of something not being right has me laughing and shaking my head at least a few times every season as I get busted.
Post by: idahohuntr on October 19, 2022, 09:54:56 AM
Females in deer and elk populations are largely what controls the population abundance/productivity. One male (buck or bull) can breed a lot of females in a year, so they are rarely the limiting factor. Female harvest is one of the biggest tools wildlife managers have for addressing herd abundance.
Folks blame the WDFW and hunters for harvesting/allowing harvest of females - but the elephant in the room in ALL western states is social tolerance. There are a lot of commerical ag groups and wildlife conflict issues that drive wildlife management decisions. Elk and deer eating crops, getting into hay, orchards, vineyards all reduce social tolerance and often result in wildlife managers increasing female harvest...with the express purpose of reducing the number of elk and deer on the landscape.
In addition to social tolerance, available winter range is much lower than historical availability in a lot of states and wildlife managers often do not want populations to get to a point that they damage (overgraze) available winter range. So, they use female harvest to help ensure populations do not exceed what the winter range can sustainably support.
To minimize the hair on fire of those that like to screech incessantly/only about predators - I want to also be clear that hunter harvest of females is often additive to predator harvest of females (and calves/fawns), so Washington's reduction of bear harvest, no meaningful cougar harvest, and the expansion of wolves also contributes to reduced productivity and in some areas of the state this is very problematic. That said - a large swath of GMU's in WA - and many units in other western states with much more liberal predator harvest - still have far lower big game herds as a result of social tolerance (e.g., farm bureaus advocating reduced herds) and winter range loss.
Low social tolerance and winter range reduction = more female harvest by wildlife managers/hunters.
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 09:55:58 AM
It’s interesting how many messages I get from westsiders looking to hunt the east side. It sounds like all the deer are over there.
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 10:01:04 AM
:yeah: No more deer hunting.
If you want to solve a population problem, then solve a population problem.
Believe it or not, that’s where we are headed, and exactly where the wolf agenda comes to play. That’s a whole different topic of its own.
In the meantime….this isn’t a bag of yeast. Kill the primary culture, it’s done.
Stop killing the baby makers!
(Except on the westside I guess. There are lots of deer over there). (Until the wolves figure it out anyway)
Post by: dwils233 on October 19, 2022, 10:03:54 AM
To be fair, I'd say the WDFW has drastically reduced the harvest of antlerless deer and elk in the last few years.
Absolutely, they are a slow moving bullet trying to hit a moving target. Regs are out before bluetongue hits, so there is some discretion needed by hunters but overall, the department does adjust to support populations goals as best they can with the info available. They slashed antlerless tags over the last year or two
Post by: kramman on October 19, 2022, 10:09:33 AM
This just further divides the hunting community. Even though I agree less does should be harvested.
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 10:10:46 AM
I continued that tradition for sometime. I finally decided to stop only because I was giving money to the worser evil or contributing to the cause.
Post by: Woodchuck on October 19, 2022, 10:17:17 AM
No need to put down those that do something legally. Every new hunter that I hunt with be it my kids nephews wife or friends that have wanted to try, I state its a personal decision to kill an animal. I will not second guess your decision. You and you alone have to pull the trigger or release the arrow.:yeah:
This just further divides the hunting community. Even though I agree less does should be harvested.
Post by: bobcat on October 19, 2022, 10:19:08 AM
Total deer harvest: 27,846
Buck harvest: 22,540
Doe harvest: 5,306
2021
Total deer harvest: 24,318
Buck harvest: 21,665
Doe harvest: 2,653
So it appears that in three years there was a fairly large decrease in the number of does taken. In fact, it's exactly 50%.
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 10:19:17 AM
I hear what your saying and can agree to a certain degree....but to put a blanket statement / rant on a forum that belittles "all" who take "baby makers" and insinuate that is the problem with our diminishing deer population is a little off base (in my opinion). It is clear you value large antlered bucks and bulls.....hell it appears to be your way of life, but not everyone shares that sentiment. Before you flame me.....I will self admit, other than bear, I have not harvested a big game animal in state in 3-4 years (maybe longer). I take my kids out and if a doe is on their agenda we whack a doe. I'm not about to raise my kids as trophy / horn hunters. Post like this, though not attacking any one person......have no place in my opinion. I like your pics and appreciate reading your post most of the time, but this one has really struck a nerve. Yeah, you didn't address it to any "one" person....instead you addressed all who value hunting tradition, meat, time in the field, success of the hunt, etc....and tarnished their success. A trophy to me is a freezer full of clean wild game to sustain my family through the year.
Post by: elkboy on October 19, 2022, 10:27:11 AM
Some thoughts...
Females in deer and elk populations are largely what controls the population abundance/productivity. One male (buck or bull) can breed a lot of females in a year, so they are rarely the limiting factor. Female harvest is one of the biggest tools wildlife managers have for addressing herd abundance.
Folks blame the WDFW and hunters for harvesting/allowing harvest of females - but the elephant in the room in ALL western states is social tolerance. There are a lot of commerical ag groups and wildlife conflict issues that drive wildlife management decisions. Elk and deer eating crops, getting into hay, orchards, vineyards all reduce social tolerance and often result in wildlife managers increasing female harvest...with the express purpose of reducing the number of elk and deer on the landscape.
In addition to social tolerance, available winter range is much lower than historical availability in a lot of states and wildlife managers often do not want populations to get to a point that they damage (overgraze) available winter range. So, they use female harvest to help ensure populations do not exceed what the winter range can sustainably support.
To minimize the hair on fire of those that like to screech incessantly/only about predators - I want to also be clear that hunter harvest of females is often additive to predator harvest of females (and calves/fawns), so Washington's reduction of bear harvest, no meaningful cougar harvest, and the expansion of wolves also contributes to reduced productivity and in some areas of the state this is very problematic. That said - a large swath of GMU's in WA - and many units in other western states with much more liberal predator harvest - still have far lower big game herds as a result of social tolerance (e.g., farm bureaus advocating reduced herds) and winter range loss.
Low social tolerance and winter range reduction = more female harvest by wildlife managers/hunters.
Spot on, idahohuntr.
I drew antlerless second deer for Almota last fall, and I sent my tag back in (WDFW gave me my second deer points back), in addition to not hunting my OTC deer tag. I think there is a role for the hunter to be observant of phenomena like bluetongue/EHD impacts, and choosing to not hunt when appropriate. No bashing of anyone who drew and chose to hunt it (only five tags handed out, at any rate, for that unit), but that was a personal decision that aligned with my values and what I was observing.
In the past, I have taken a lot of does (whitetail and blacktail) where it was permitted, usually with muzzleloader. But it was in areas, and at times, with good deer numbers. Whether doe harvest is a constraint on a population is a question that we should expect WDFW and their biologists to answer, and give us clear direction in the form of altered regulations. If they are not doing that, and boneaddict's post suggests he believes that they are not, then they must be held accountable (I know, many will say they'll never be held accountable for anything, etc.).
Post by: 300rum on October 19, 2022, 10:31:18 AM
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 10:34:01 AM
Combined with more people going after them, it is a slow downward spiral.
There was a spot in EWa the wife and I stopped hunting because the number of people that started showing up was crazy. We gave it a few years then went back to see ‘how it was going’.
It was nuts. Garbage, people driving were they were not supposed to and shooting up pretty much everything. It was WAY worse then it had been the last time we were there.
We recently moved to a more rural area. Deer and elk seen regularly. Deer and elk hit fairly often as well.
Supposed to be one of the fastest growing populations in the State. More people, less critters. Just a matter of time.
People are not taught about gathering their own food, or make the process out to be ‘bad’.
Not sure what the ‘end all’ answer is, but I would say we are our own worst enemy by not getting involved in ‘the process’, instead leaving it to those that ‘will’ get involved. There are groups that have figured out that is the way to control the outcome to THEIR satisfaction. And it is working, in many area’s.
I don’t want to get involved either. So, I can’t really complain about the outcome. There ya go!
Post by: NRA4LIFE on October 19, 2022, 10:40:49 AM
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 10:43:54 AM
Some thoughts...
Females in deer and elk populations are largely what controls the population abundance/productivity. One male (buck or bull) can breed a lot of females in a year, so they are rarely the limiting factor. Female harvest is one of the biggest tools wildlife managers have for addressing herd abundance.
Folks blame the WDFW and hunters for harvesting/allowing harvest of females - but the elephant in the room in ALL western states is social tolerance. There are a lot of commerical ag groups and wildlife conflict issues that drive wildlife management decisions. Elk and deer eating crops, getting into hay, orchards, vineyards all reduce social tolerance and often result in wildlife managers increasing female harvest...with the express purpose of reducing the number of elk and deer on the landscape.
In addition to social tolerance, available winter range is much lower than historical availability in a lot of states and wildlife managers often do not want populations to get to a point that they damage (overgraze) available winter range. So, they use female harvest to help ensure populations do not exceed what the winter range can sustainably support.
To minimize the hair on fire of those that like to screech incessantly/only about predators - I want to also be clear that hunter harvest of females is often additive to predator harvest of females (and calves/fawns), so Washington's reduction of bear harvest, no meaningful cougar harvest, and the expansion of wolves also contributes to reduced productivity and in some areas of the state this is very problematic. That said - a large swath of GMU's in WA - and many units in other western states with much more liberal predator harvest - still have far lower big game herds as a result of social tolerance (e.g., farm bureaus advocating reduced herds) and winter range loss.
Low social tolerance and winter range reduction = more female harvest by wildlife managers/hunters.
I would agree if wdfw used the same social tolerance on predators
Bears tear up more orchards than any deer or elk, peel trees, eat fawns calves and yet....
The commission is using social tolerance not of people affected, but that of people least affected by bears and other predators
So it seems social tolerance only works whens its beneficial to the agenda
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 10:44:15 AM
I do like big bucks and bulls, but enjoy most wildlife. For god sakes I take butterfly pics. I have noted that the bigger ones are more appreciated than the little ones. Today’s small buck pic will be buried by day two. So there’s is that. I’m here trying to save does for gosh sakes. Lol
Ida, good post. There is some anecdotal funniness to that in the valley. They created more Muley doe opportunity on the valley floor because of an influx. There was an influx because the wolves drove them there. Lol. The deer found it safer dodging cars eating flowers and playing with Fido versus being ate by big Fido in the foothills.
Probably a lot more than that NRA, wolves too
Bobcat, do you know if those numbers were from decreased tags, or lack of harvest because of fewer animals. Thanks for the numbers.
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 10:52:32 AM
You win! Shooting the producer is good business. Just ask Biden. Lol
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 11:06:53 AM
I have noted that the bigger ones are more appreciated than the little ones. Today’s small buck pic will be buried by day two.
Kinda like the youtuber syndrome, gotta have boobs and butts to get any views
Post by: Gringo31 on October 19, 2022, 11:13:42 AM
All that being said, I understand the need for more harvest on say westside island deer. I can NOT get my head around the attempt to dramatically reduce the mule deer herd in Washtucna. I believe the mule doe permits are around 700 this year. :yike:
Deer numbers are down and I believe it's on purpose.
Personally, I think doe harvest should be limited to first time hunters, over 65 etc in areas that need it.
Post by: buckfvr on October 19, 2022, 11:26:10 AM
Preferring mature animals does not make you the sinister "trophy hunter" . To each his own.
Post by: duckmen1 on October 19, 2022, 11:42:20 AM
With blue toungue and all the other hard winters and disease in the last 8 years on whitetails I am suprised at the long seasons including the late hunt for whitetail in november with such low numbers. I honestly I quit hunting whitetails under my own ethics completely as areas used to thrive with whitetails but are almost non exhistant now. So I don't feel right in harvesting a whitetail from those areas buck or doe.
Now some units are doing better than others and that is where science based off of individual units a little more thorough would be better off in setting seasons and tags. They do to a point but could maybe do a little better I am sure.
But I did harvest a second doe tag mulie in an area that has fairly stable number of deer. Filled my freezer to feed my family. But took in factors and ethics to the unit and area in doing so. Passed on every doe that had yearling. Waiting for a doe that I felt ok ethically in taking.
We all need to work together. Use ethics to the best we can. And stick together. But push for management within the wdfw to be based off science, not emotion.
I won't appologize for hunting legally with my tag. But I do understand the posts meaning and agenda and fully respect that too. We all would love to see high deer numbers. And all should do something to try to see improvement in one way or another.
Post by: timberfaller on October 19, 2022, 11:47:50 AM
:yeah:
:tup: duckmen1
Post by: C-Money on October 19, 2022, 12:02:47 PM
[/quote]
Ain't that the truth.
We didn't draw any permits, so its bucks for us this year. Thankfully we butchered a steer late summer, so we are good. A lot of years, I/we/family walk a line between store beef or doe/buck venison. The additional cost of applying for a doe tag, some years, puts meat in the freezer. I totally understand what Bone is saying in the OP, and I'm not offended or upset about the statement. He is right. In the same breath, we will continue to take advantage of doe tags in our area when we can, because we like to eat. Whitetail does that have filtered into muley country take priority over a muley doe, but it doesn't always work out that way. We have ate doe tags in good years because we have enough venison with our general buck tags.
Post by: trophyhunt on October 19, 2022, 12:28:50 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on October 19, 2022, 12:36:48 PM
Cow moose (and elk) should absolutely be discontinued, so should most all doe hunts this side of the Cascades
I agree
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 12:40:27 PM
Cow moose (and elk) should absolutely be discontinued, so should most all doe hunts this side of the Cascades
Moose specifically.....would you agree with your statement prior to the wolf population blowing up? Asking because I never really payed attention to moose numbers till after the wolves were established.
Post by: furbearer365 on October 19, 2022, 12:49:02 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 12:55:47 PM
Cow moose (and elk) should absolutely be discontinued, so should most all doe hunts this side of the Cascades
Moose specifically.....would you agree with your statement prior to the wolf population blowing up? Asking because I never really payed attention to moose numbers till after the wolves were established.
I snowmobile a lot and the trails are paved in wolf scat full of moose hair, what cows are left have long since lost their calves. Bulls are doing better than cows, no calves to defend and no need to move around all tbat much
On my cameras it's not strange to see several bulls hitting salt and maybe 1 cow
It's unforgivable to have cow moose hunts in most rural moose areas not bordering a city
Post by: baldopepper on October 19, 2022, 12:59:51 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 01:02:12 PM
Quote
But I did harvest a second doe tag mulie in an area that has fairly stable number of deer. Filled my freezer to feed my family. But took in factors and ethics to the unit and area in doing so. Passed on every doe that had yearling. Waiting for a doe that I felt ok ethically in taking.
We all need to work together. Use ethics to the best we can. And stick together. But push for management within the wdfw to be based off science, not emotion.
I absolutely love this.
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 01:03:07 PM
Cow moose (and elk) should absolutely be discontinued, so should most all doe hunts this side of the Cascades
I agree
I coulda tagged out easy, numerous girls standing less than 20 yards broadside, I didn't
Wanted tbat herd bull, which I had less than 15 yards, numerous rags less than 20 too
I just don't shoot them, I hunt em, but don't shoot em
Bucks had plenty just right there easy poke
I just like being out there enjoying the chase, dunno. .lost my desire to drop em watching herds dwindle and the cluster of hunters desperately trying to drop anything that they'd chit on you to do it
Post by: Jpmiller on October 19, 2022, 01:04:33 PM
Where can someone look up any of the data and info on current population? Mortality studies? Habitat carrying capacities?
I do agree though, all of you who don't hunt how, when, and why I do are dumb and need to re evaluate you're lives to be more like mine.
Post by: lewy on October 19, 2022, 01:04:57 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 01:07:53 PM
Quote
I just like being out there enjoying the chase, dunno. .lost my desire to drop em watching herds dwindle and the cluster of hunters desperately trying to drop anything that they'd chit on you to do it.
Be careful man, you might find yourself being a photographer, 8)
Post by: Naches Sportsman on October 19, 2022, 01:13:28 PM
It’s sad to see an area, for example, the Nile and Wenas go to crap. I believe those factors are 1.) loss of winter range, 2.) over abundance of Mtn Lions, 3.) liberal native harvest of does after modern elk season 4.)loss of prime feed and habitat.
Post by: buckfvr on October 19, 2022, 01:18:23 PM
For deer and their declining numbers, I think its the target animals that need to be managed more closely as in no does and antler point restrictions, rather than the allotted time to actually be in the act of hunting. I want to hunt, even if its difficult to find the legal animal, kill being second to hunt. Any late/rut hunts should be 4pt one side. Something is going to have to be done, and I for one hope its not at the expense of opportunity to be in the woods in the act of hunting regardless of success.
Post by: Gringo31 on October 19, 2022, 01:42:24 PM
Little Naches/Observatory bull elk tags as well.
They hammered the Colockum on antlerless tags just about the time wolves started showing up.....
Just sayin.... The goal is preservation not conservation.
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 01:47:23 PM
I was going to shoot a doe but then a stranger on the internet put on his wildlife bio.hat and told me not to.
Where can someone look up any of the data and info on current population? Mortality studies? Habitat carrying capacities?
I do agree though, all of you who don't hunt how, when, and why I do are dumb and need to re evaluate you're lives to be more like mine.
Funny! I like it!
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 19, 2022, 02:04:40 PM
Carry on.
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 02:10:26 PM
:dunno:
Hard to know without DNA on scat how many critters are taken by predators, but vids of fresh born being eaten, and even being pulled out, is pretty compelling. :yike:
Post by: Wingin it on October 19, 2022, 02:18:27 PM
I also kind of hate to say this but I think it is time to go to a draw only system in Washington. Limit the tags but also allow for better seasons for those that do draw a tag. In order for this to work they would need to revamp the draw system though because the way it works currently sucks! Of course that would take some money from the state so I doubt it will ever happen.
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 19, 2022, 02:21:58 PM
Like the OP, I mentioned no names in my posts. If you took it as you, on you.
:dunno:
Hard to know without DNA on scat how many critters are taken by predators, but vids of fresh born being eaten, and even being pulled out, is pretty compelling. :yike:
Actually it's targeting anyone that harvest's antlerless...
This isn't who killed the last doe in 204. Then point finger's.
This is a general blanket statement covering a broad range of hunter's and huntresses. I'm not offended in the slightest. I'll do me...
Just won't feel the need to share success pics in the future when I know half the forum will probably disapprove of my decisions.
Like allot of threads these days.... creating a ton of division. I just don't get it.
Post by: Woodchuck on October 19, 2022, 02:24:41 PM
Perfectly stated and my point exactly.Like the OP, I mentioned no names in my posts. If you took it as you, on you.
:dunno:
Hard to know without DNA on scat how many critters are taken by predators, but vids of fresh born being eaten, and even being pulled out, is pretty compelling. :yike:
Actually it's targeting anyone that harvest's antlerless...
This isn't who killed the last doe in 204. Then point finger's.
This is a general blanket statement covering a broad range of hunter's and huntresses. I'm not offended in the slightest. I'll do me...
Just won't feel the need to share success pics in the future when I know half the forum will probably disapprove of my decisions.
Like allot of threads these days.... creating a ton of division. I just don't get it.
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 02:32:36 PM
Post by: Buck Rub Jr on October 19, 2022, 02:56:15 PM
Post by: buckfvr on October 19, 2022, 03:04:30 PM
I dont support it in the least.
Post by: Duckslayer89 on October 19, 2022, 03:19:27 PM
I was talking to a bio on the phone who works the region I was planning to hunt, I told him I had a second deer tag for the area but wasn’t going to hunt the tag because I was concerned about the deer numbers in the area. He said that with the amount of tags given along with success rates for that hunt that it wouldn’t have any negative effect on the deer population if I harvested a doe and that if I wanted to try and fill the freezer that I should hunt that permit with no guilty conscience at all.
Look what they have done with the population…. Don’t trust what they say.
Post by: Platensek-po on October 19, 2022, 03:29:32 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 03:38:22 PM
Like you said you do you.
My point is to bring awareness to a problem versus sitting back and watching it completely implode. Folks are entitled to sit back in the land of unicorns and rainbows, but it isn’t sustainable if something isn’t done.
For those of you putting blind faith into the WDFW, good for you. They must be doing something right, because it’s obvious we are living the glory days right now.
The harvesting of antlerless is a tool in wildlife management but just like trying to use a 1/2 wrench to hammer in a railroad spike. If the tool isn’t the right tool for the current job….
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 03:40:12 PM
Anterless harvest was down to about 2k last year. Previous years was anywhere from 3-7k.
I’m curious if that’s because of less animals, less permits, people making different decisions, or all of the above.
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 03:48:05 PM
Anterless harvest was down to about 2k last year. Previous years was anywhere from 3-7k.
I’m curious if that’s because of less animals, less permits, people making different decisions, or all of the above.
I can tell you that they took youth OTC youth and Over 65 does away in most of the NE GMU's 3 years ago (maybe 2 years ago....not 100% sure). This has to have a pretty large impact on the number of does hitting the ground.
Post by: KFhunter on October 19, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
The harvesting of antlerless is a tool in wildlife management but just like trying to use a 1/2 wrench to hammer in a railroad spike. If the tool isn’t the right tool for the current job….
It is if the "job" is to reduce reduce and marginalize hunters with a long term goal of ending hunting.
I can't think of a better way to social engineer an end of such a long held tradition.
Post by: pickardjw on October 19, 2022, 04:03:20 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on October 19, 2022, 04:17:56 PM
The majority opinion on the forum here seems to be that the WDFW mismanages all of our wildlife. But suddenly, because the WDFW is issuing tags for does/cows that must mean that it's a sustainable practice? Just an observation.
Sustainability is in the eye of the beholder. Our Fish and Game isn't in the business of caring about our success. I've talked with plenty of bios in other states, and all agree that our F&W don't predicate their goals on our success, like other states do. One bio put it perfect when he said that Washingon doesn't want a Cattle Ranch, they want a hobby farm. Instead having 10,000 cows, they want 1,000 cows, 1,000 goats, 1,000 chickens, 1,000 pigs, etc....Meaning, they don't make money or care about the success of its tag holders, like other states do. Look at our success rates compared to other states. Just because Washington hands out tags, don't get it twisted that our State truly understands or cares about what's best for us, or our game population.
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 19, 2022, 04:27:07 PM
The threat of not posting pics on here sorta reminds me of the threat to stop social security, or to ban sports in school.
Like you said you do you.
My point is to bring awareness to a problem versus sitting back and watching it completely implode. Folks are entitled to sit back in the land of unicorns and rainbows, but it isn’t sustainable if something isn’t done.
For those of you putting blind faith into the WDFW, good for you. They must be doing something right, because it’s obvious we are living the glory days right now.
The harvesting of antlerless is a tool in wildlife management but just like trying to use a 1/2 wrench to hammer in a railroad spike. If the tool isn’t the right tool for the current job….
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: Platensek-po on October 19, 2022, 04:45:41 PM
Anterless harvest was down to about 2k last year. Previous years was anywhere from 3-7k.
I’m curious if that’s because of less animals, less permits, people making different decisions, or all of the above.
Less permits. I can look again but about 2 yrs ago it seems they substantially reduced the permits for anterless.
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 04:50:46 PM
Anterless harvest was down to about 2k last year. Previous years was anywhere from 3-7k.
I’m curious if that’s because of less animals, less permits, people making different decisions, or all of the above.
Less permits. I can look again but about 2 yrs ago it seems they substantially reduced the permits for anterless.
Pretty sure it was 2019....could have been 2020 but I thought it was the year after I bought some property that my kids could hunt. Whammo no more doe tags for kids.
Post by: rainshadow1 on October 19, 2022, 04:52:22 PM
Plan a trip or two!
I think (and have taken advantage of) the youth antlerless options in high population areas is a positive thing, but not perpetually if the population isn't stable with it. It's pretty simple logic.
But we do need to make the effort to get out and kill sharp teeth! That's why I got into calling Cougars in the first place, when the dogs went away. The number of ungulates they kill - annually, per animal - is mind-boggling.
Post by: pickardjw on October 19, 2022, 05:09:36 PM
We (collectively, as Washington sportsmen/women) need to invest the time and money it takes to kill predators.
Plan a trip or two!
I think (and have taken advantage of) the youth antlerless options in high population areas is a positive thing, but not perpetually if the population isn't stable with it. It's pretty simple logic.
But we do need to make the effort to get out and kill sharp teeth! That's why I got into calling Cougars in the first place, when the dogs went away. The number of ungulates they kill - annually, per animal - is mind-boggling.
Got my ICOtec in this week. Four weekends left to fill a bear tag or two and I'll definitely be out giving cats a try this winter!
Post by: jeffro on October 19, 2022, 05:11:23 PM
It takes two to tango
Just saying….
Don’t take the bucks either
Post by: tinsleystyle on October 19, 2022, 06:15:13 PM
This thread is ridiculous.
Post by: highside74 on October 19, 2022, 06:23:58 PM
Last time I checked,
It takes two to tango
Just saying….
Don’t take the bucks either
1 healthy buck can breed 7-10 does per season.
Not the same thing at all.
Post by: highside74 on October 19, 2022, 06:25:48 PM
Conservative estimates put the number of Auto-Deer collisions at a minimum of 4,000 annually in Washington state, guess we should all hang up our keys to protect the baby makers.
This thread is ridiculous.
That makes no sense at all. Accidents happen. Going out and harvesting does when the population is struggling is a conscious decision.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 19, 2022, 06:30:56 PM
The threat of not posting pics on here sorta reminds me of the threat to stop social security, or to ban sports in school.
Like you said you do you.
My point is to bring awareness to a problem versus sitting back and watching it completely implode. Folks are entitled to sit back in the land of unicorns and rainbows, but it isn’t sustainable if something isn’t done.
For those of you putting blind faith into the WDFW, good for you. They must be doing something right, because it’s obvious we are living the glory days right now.
The harvesting of antlerless is a tool in wildlife management but just like trying to use a 1/2 wrench to hammer in a railroad spike. If the tool isn’t the right tool for the current job….
:yeah:
We need to fire all the tools working for WDFW! I've helped them with research and population studies before. They're a bunch of morons. I have never shot a doe and don't agree with shooting does. You can have one buck and a dozen does and increase a population. You can't have one doe and a dozen bucks and expect to see progress. Go to the store and buy $150 in cheap steaks and you will be ahead. I have to agree with Bone on this. I went four years as a youth hunting before shooting my first buck. I refused to shoot a doe for the same reason Bone speaks of in this thread. It's crazy how fast people will turn on you for posting something like this. :dunno:
Post by: ellensburgpo on October 19, 2022, 06:37:47 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on October 19, 2022, 06:50:25 PM
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 07:14:33 PM
And go.....
Post by: Casey on October 19, 2022, 07:16:56 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: huntnfmly on October 19, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Pretty sure putting in for a draw, with the sole intent of stopping others hunters from hunting that draw....is what the anti hunting, bunny hugger, liberal, left wing nuts do. To me this is nothing more than an intentional act that puts you in the same boat as any anti hunting wing nut out there. Prove me wrong with your twisted logic. You don't have to agree like the fact that these doe tags exist, but you should respect that fact that other hunters appreciate the opportunity. Buying a tag to impose your thoughts and will on others for the sole purpose of taking opportunity away is wrong. One could argue an act of domestic terrorism....or hunter harassment....which is also illegal.
And go.....
I completely agree with this
If are not going to use your second deer tag because you won’t shoot a doe then don’t put in for it leave it for someone who will
And to those of you who are reading this thinking you won’t post a story or pic of a deer that you are rightfully excited about because it’s a doe please do
There are more people like myself in here that enjoy those type of stories and pics than there are that think it’s wrong to
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on October 19, 2022, 07:26:00 PM
I was raised in a household ( thank you Idabooner) that applied for doe tags every year and then ceremoniously ripped them up. We also ate plenty of venison.Yep, that’s why I don’t do it
I continued that tradition for sometime. I finally decided to stop only because I was giving money to the worser evil or contributing to the cause.
Post by: jason stevens on October 19, 2022, 07:26:36 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 19, 2022, 07:32:11 PM
Last time I checked,
It takes two to tango
Just saying….
Don’t take the bucks either
1 healthy buck can breed 7-10 does per season.
Not the same thing at all.
NOT taking a stance on this subject. What if there is not that 1 healthy buck in a certain area? Then there are 7-10 barren does.
Post by: GWP on October 19, 2022, 07:37:10 PM
Pretty sure putting in for a draw, with the sole intent of stopping others hunters from hunting that draw....is what the anti hunting, bunny hugger, liberal, left wing nuts do. To me this is nothing more than an intentional act that puts you in the same boat as any anti hunting wing nut out there. Prove me wrong with your twisted logic. You don't have to agree like the fact that these doe tags exist, but you should respect that fact that other hunters appreciate the opportunity. Buying a tag to impose your thoughts and will on others for the sole purpose of taking opportunity away is wrong. One could argue an act of domestic terrorism....or hunter harassment....which is also illegal.
And go.....
Holy smokes!
There are so many other things that this post could apply to! Like one party supporting someone in an opposing group to flood and minimize the voting power by having so many candidates!
While it 'may' be a bit harsh, the argument has merit.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 19, 2022, 08:08:55 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2022, 08:24:32 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 19, 2022, 08:27:53 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on October 19, 2022, 08:28:19 PM
I’m a domestic terrorist now, really JReb, that’s cutehaha that’s some funny sh-t
Post by: GASoline71 on October 19, 2022, 08:39:58 PM
Gary
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on October 19, 2022, 08:40:43 PM
I’m a domestic terrorist now, really JReb, that’s cuteCareful Biden might send the FBI after you. :chuckle:
Post by: jrebel on October 19, 2022, 08:46:20 PM
I’m a domestic terrorist now, really JReb, that’s cute
Just like your original post....I will make it clear that I was not targeting any one person with that statement. ;) I was however venting and voicing my opposition to a stance that many have taken. Though a bit dramatized......I do think the correlation could be made.
Because you assume I was calling you a terrorist.....lets go down the road that could connect these dots.
- If every environmental wingnut spend 13 dollars to draw for quality tags and OIL tags with the sole purpose of depriving you the opportunity to hunt, how would that make you feel? This topic has come up many times on this forum and it appears most hunters would be apposed at the actions of anti groups doing exactly what you are doing.
- Do you consider some environmental wingnut, far left wing groups to be domestic terrorists? You know, the ones who burnt down the street of dreams homes in Snohomish county a few years ago....or the ones that spike trees in hopes of doing harm to loggers, etc. etc. etc.
- Could you be associated with said groups if you are buying a tag for the sole purpose of depriving me or my family the opportunity that the state says exists.....right or wrong. Why do you get to decide right from wrong, or impose your will on me and my family and deprive us (or others that don't share your belief) of what would otherwise be 100% legal? It could be said that you are depriving a family of nutrition / sustenance. To say buying beef is cheaper....is not the case for all.
I will wait for your response. For the record....I don't believe your a domestic terrorist. I am simply making a point that buying a tag for the sole purpose of depriving others of the "LEGAL" opportunity to shoot a doe.....is wrong and could be viewed as hunter harassment. The domestic terrorist may be a stretch...but it clearly makes a point.
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on October 19, 2022, 08:46:35 PM
Post by: actionshooter on October 19, 2022, 09:23:37 PM
The blame lies squarely with dfw, not the hunters.
Expecting hunters to abstain from filling lawful doe tags is a bit much to ask, especially the weekend warriors who've no idea the year to year population trends.
I agree with the OP but this is ^^ right... I think most would expect that the WDFW wouldn't do something this stupid as issuing doe tags in areas where the deer are hurting but then again... :(
Post by: Themuleyslayer on October 19, 2022, 09:29:53 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 19, 2022, 09:39:34 PM
:bash:Agreed
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Post by: PolarBear on October 19, 2022, 09:42:24 PM
:bash:Amen!! I never understood the mentality of killing does in areas with struggling numbers.
If you think the population is where it should be then by all means....otherwise YOU are contributing to the problem. Stop complaining about not seeing anything, stop complaining about Natives, stop complaining about predators. STOP complaining the WDFW doesn't know what they are doing. Of course they don't, they issued you a legal permit to do something absolutely DUMB.
The loss of opportunity, well, when they are all gone come on here and whine some more.
:bash:
rant mildly over. I've avoided trashing anyones post on here by being negative, so I created my own.
:bash:
Post by: MountainWalk on October 19, 2022, 10:21:42 PM
Dude, gtfu…. Like bone owes you an explanation. You said something stupid. Get over it and quit trying to say you didn’t say what you did.
Post by: h2ofowlr on October 19, 2022, 10:29:51 PM
Post by: huntnnw on October 19, 2022, 10:40:04 PM
Why not ban bait and trail cameras in the state. It would make it more of a hunt. It would reduce the harvest rate substantially in some areas. It would also help to not suck the deer on to private properties as some folks have very elaborate baiting stations and many cellular trail cams.
this comment basically refers to a user group in mule deer country. Lotta other guys hunting huge amounts of public land baiting whitetails
Post by: huntnnw on October 19, 2022, 10:42:39 PM
Post by: Lucky1 on October 19, 2022, 10:43:54 PM
Why not ban bait and trail cameras in the state. It would make it more of a hunt. It would reduce the harvest rate substantially in some areas. It would also help to not suck the deer on to private properties as some folks have very elaborate baiting stations and many cellular trail cams.Maybe we should ban rifle hunting. That should reduce the harvest. Muzzle loaders and archery only. That would make it more of a hunt. What do you think?
Post by: pashok23 on October 19, 2022, 11:07:51 PM
i think you should shhh 😊Why not ban bait and trail cameras in the state. It would make it more of a hunt. It would reduce the harvest rate substantially in some areas. It would also help to not suck the deer on to private properties as some folks have very elaborate baiting stations and many cellular trail cams.Maybe we should ban rifle hunting. That should reduce the harvest. Muzzle loaders and archery only. That would make it more of a hunt. What do you think?
You most likely archery or muzzleloader person.
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 19, 2022, 11:35:14 PM
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 05:45:40 AM
“I will wait for your response “…..
Dude, gtfu…. Like bone owes you an explanation. You said something stupid. Get over it and quit trying to say you didn’t say what you did.
So here we go saying someone’s opinion is stupid because they don’t agree with you
We as sportsman/woman are seriously are own worst enemy
Antis that are on this forum love seeing us be divided this will be the next issue they work on taking from us
Post by: GWP on October 20, 2022, 06:18:50 AM
“I will wait for your response “…..
Dude, gtfu…. Like bone owes you an explanation. You said something stupid. Get over it and quit trying to say you didn’t say what you did.
So here we go saying someone’s opinion is stupid because they don’t agree with you
We as sportsman/woman are seriously are own worst enemy
Antis that are on this forum live seeing us be divided this will be the next issue they work on taking from us
This.
You could apply this to just about anything. How about someone buys ALL of the (insert your favorite hunting item, ammo or vehicle, favorite beverage you are looking to buy or need) and then destroys them just because ‘they don’t like them’.
I can guess all of the howling that would be going on then!
Or, perhaps it is time for me to start putting in for those horned critter tags and destroying the tag because ‘hunting for trophies is not ethical’, or some other reason.
I have heard ‘from a reliable source’ it is acceptable to do that!
Post by: Longfield1 on October 20, 2022, 06:28:24 AM
How many lbs of meat does a mule deer doe make?
Got a mule doe in September archery, and I got 42.5 lbs of meat.
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 20, 2022, 06:42:08 AM
This thread was started because of someone's legal success pics or story. Am I wrong?
As a hunting forum is it good to have conversations about deer herd health and management. Of course. Is it good to belittle someone's success or personal decisions when it comes to legal harvest....imo no.
Yet 9 pages worth proves yet again that hunt wa is deeply divided on what people think is personally right/ wrong versus legal. Seems to happen all the time.
Is wdfw doing a good job at game management. No. Can we as hunter's self manage the States game population back into shape...imo no. Not unless everyone just stops hunting for a few years.
And it baffles me that people think they are doing their part to manage herds by applying for tags to destroy them.... :dunno:. That's straight out of the Antis play book. Chapter one. Taking away legal opportunity for someone because you don't agree with it.
Might as well go target practice on the first day of archery season. Or drive through the hills in Winthrop during modern with a siren on your truck.
As a forum I thought we try and encourage all forms of legally harvested animals. Making people feel ashamed of legal animals is a bad look.
Not that it matters to some but allot of our youth watch this forum. My kid actually turned me onto this thread yesterday. Left a sour taste in his mouth. He understands game management but I also raised him to respect people's decisions when it comes to legal harvest and opportunity. So he was a little taken back by the thread... especially when allot of antler less harvest comes from our youth ....anyway.
Just my mostly unpopular opinion.
And no I didn't kill myself :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 06:54:33 AM
Most here are stuck in their beliefs (right or wrong) and won't be persuaded.
Appears that those who have had many successful seasons killing "trophy" type bucks/bulls lean hard 1 way
Those who just enjoy hunting/eating and are not the stereotypical "horn hunters" hard the other way.
Bone and JR both have very valid points.
How is it resolved....................Definitely not like this thread is going. :bash:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 06:56:32 AM
I respect the heck out of Bone and I'm sure no one talks back to the godfather of Mule deer pics and gets away with it....but....
This thread was started because of someone's legal success pics or story. Am I wrong?
As a hunting forum is it good to have conversations about deer herd health and management. Of course. Is it good to belittle someone's success or personal decisions when it comes to legal harvest....imo no.
Yet 9 pages worth proves yet again that hunt wa is deeply divided on what people think is personally right/ wrong versus legal. Seems to happen all the time.
Is wdfw doing a good job at game management. No. Can we as hunter's self manage the States game population back into shape...imo no. Not unless everyone just stops hunting for a few years.
And it baffles me that people think they are doing their part to manage herds by applying for tags to destroy them.... :dunno:. That's straight out of the Antis play book. Chapter one. Taking away legal opportunity for someone because you don't agree with it.
Might as well go target practice on the first day of archery season. Or drive through the hills in Winthrop during modern with a siren on your truck.
As a forum I thought we try and encourage all forms of legally harvested animals. Making people feel ashamed of legal animals is a bad look.
Not that it matters to some but allot of our youth watch this forum. My kid actually turned me onto this thread yesterday. Left a sour taste in his mouth. He understands game management but I also raised him to respect people's decisions when it comes to legal harvest and opportunity. So he was a little taken back by the thread... especially when allot of antler less harvest comes from our youth ....anyway.
Just my mostly unpopular opinion.
And no I didn't kill myself :chuckle:
BEST POST ON HERE>
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 07:05:43 AM
The definition of what qualifies for a trophy is terribly skewed in the wrong direction due to the hunting industry social media and the ever popular mine is bigger than yours
IMO every animal taken legally is a trophy
Go look at the huge smiles you see from adults and kids behind their does spikes fork horns that is what it is all about
Post by: 300rum on October 20, 2022, 07:20:40 AM
You used to get razzed and/or made fun of if you were a doe shooter, no one in camp shot does back in the day, not even kids, even if you could. Of course, you wouldn't be caught dead rolling into camp with a man-bra for your binoculars or ladies half chaps. Things have changed!
I remember the hunting mags pushing doe shooting back in the day, it was entirely foreign to us in the West but they kept pushing their Eastern whitetail stuff on us, including climbing into a tree, clothes made to look like a tree (and then put your hunter orange over top of it, about as stupid as it gets) and "scent blocking" sprays. I guarantee some of you still have your butt-out tool and likely carry it with you but you won't admit to it.
Eventually, the everyone-gets-a trophy-crowd came along and they think that somehow our youth won't be happy unless they shoot something and doe shooting became a thing. Personally, I think it was from the increase in constant kids sports, the kids would only have a day or two to hunt instead of the season, with the men in camp learning and apprenticing. Now, guys can't leave the truck without a tacticool 1st aid kit and a satellite messenger beacon, they have no traditional skills.
As far as predators go, every house in the country you walked in to had a .22 or a .410 in the corner for anything, and I mean anything that threatened the chickens. You can use your imagination here, 4-legged and winged, it didn't matter. The same thing happened in the hunting woods too, that's why we didn't have a predator problem 30 years ago, in fact if someone even saw a cougar it was pretty rare.
I know it won't change back again. Just know that your Grandpa and Great Uncle's would mock you relentlessly if they could see you hunt now days. Between jokes about your outfit and your scope with the big knobs on it, they would get a bigger buck (with iron sights) then you, drag it out by themselves, and throw it on the top of a rig and drive it right through the middle of town waving to the folks on the side of the road as they went by. All of this in wool or denim pants with nothing other then a sandwich in their pocket and an extra shell or two.
Post by: elkboy on October 20, 2022, 07:22:06 AM
I want to clarify something about my post. When I drew the 2nd deer tag last year, I had every intention of filling it. But then I saw firsthand the impacts of the EHD outbreak. That was when I returned the tag. I wasn't trying to take opportunity from other hunters; I made a decision based on changing herd conditions that I could easily observe.
I guess what I don't understand is the absolute position some hold on doe or cow harvest. What if one is hunting in south Alabama, with 25-30 deer per square mile? Or the elk country of northwest Colorado? Is harvest of females not acceptable there? Someone brought up the San Juan Islands. I've hunted there, and seen the overbrowsed understories.
What is not controversial to I hope any of us, is restrictions or complete halting of doe harvest in a struggling herd.
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 07:29:24 AM
“I will wait for your response “…..
Dude, gtfu…. Like bone owes you an explanation. You said something stupid. Get over it and quit trying to say you didn’t say what you did.
Hey, if you don't like the fact that I'm waiting for a response to a respected poster that made the accusation that I called "HIM" a terrorist.....then pack sand. Bone's comment about me calling him a terrorist is absurd.....I merely made a correlation of what terrorist groups are doing and what multiple members have stated they are doing.....buying tags for the sole reason of destroying them so other hunters cannot partake in a legal form of hunting.
To be so egotistical to think I am talking about him specifically is laughable......well unless he has a guilty conscious. One that sits so high on the pedestal to think his way of hunting is the only way to hunt and then partaking in actions that lesson the chance for others to partake in legal hunting is wrong. Again....prove me wrong.
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 07:36:21 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 07:40:04 AM
Fish…..no, not a specific post like you are thinking. The two posts that did it were people asking for help because they haven’t seen a deer and of course I’m out and about occasionally and note that wow, the populations are really really down. I’m looking at range that could carry a whole lot more of game.
Obviously I find game and have shown enough photo evidence to not be completely full of crap, or at least fairly tuned in.
Damn I’m already putting myself behind time. Good post.
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 07:42:53 AM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 07:54:06 AM
It was a bad conclusion to come to Bow. I assumed that all the westside guys wouldn’t be driving to the Methow if they had deer coming out their kazzu, especially with gas costing 6 bucks a gallon. :chuckle: That buys a lot of black angus compared to eating one of those sage brush stinking does.
You spend enough each time you travel to the east side to take your pictures to buy a lot of angus?
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 07:57:14 AM
I'm a little bit older now so I have seen some of the changes....
You used to get razzed and/or made fun of if you were a doe shooter, no one in camp shot does back in the day, not even kids, even if you could. Of course, you wouldn't be caught dead rolling into camp with a man-bra for your binoculars or ladies half chaps. Things have changed!
I remember the hunting mags pushing doe shooting back in the day, it was entirely foreign to us in the West but they kept pushing their Eastern whitetail stuff on us, including climbing into a tree, clothes made to look like a tree (and then put your hunter orange over top of it, about as stupid as it gets) and "scent blocking" sprays. I guarantee some of you still have your butt-out tool and likely carry it with you but you won't admit to it.
Eventually, the everyone-gets-a trophy-crowd came along and they think that somehow our youth won't be happy unless they shoot something and doe shooting became a thing. Personally, I think it was from the increase in constant kids sports, the kids would only have a day or two to hunt instead of the season, with the men in camp learning and apprenticing. Now, guys can't leave the truck without a tacticool 1st aid kit and a satellite messenger beacon, they have no traditional skills.
As far as predators go, every house in the country you walked in to had a .22 or a .410 in the corner for anything, and I mean anything that threatened the chickens. You can use your imagination here, 4-legged and winged, it didn't matter. The same thing happened in the hunting woods too, that's why we didn't have a predator problem 30 years ago, in fact if someone even saw a cougar it was pretty rare.
I know it won't change back again. Just know that your Grandpa and Great Uncle's would mock you relentlessly if they could see you hunt now days. Between jokes about your outfit and your scope with the big knobs on it, they would get a bigger buck (with iron sights) then you, drag it out by themselves, and throw it on the top of a rig and drive it right through the middle of town waving to the folks on the side of the road as they went by. All of this in wool or denim pants with nothing other then a sandwich in their pocket and an extra shell or two.
Some things are coming full circle, many hunters are embracing the old ways
Old school.wool is back in
Camo patterns are out
People are getting scolded for shooting does (the whole point of this thread)
I ain't climbed in a tree in years
I often hunt with iron sights for bear and cougar, and deer is open sights but archery
Kid's sports is an excellent point, mine all played sports but they still got their bucks ;)
No one has shot a doe, never allowed it, they'd eat their tags or get a buck....they've done both
Post by: GWP on October 20, 2022, 08:00:05 AM
I'm a little bit older now so I have seen some of the changes....
You used to get razzed and/or made fun of if you were a doe shooter, no one in camp shot does back in the day, not even kids, even if you could. Of course, you wouldn't be caught dead rolling into camp with a man-bra for your binoculars or ladies half chaps. Things have changed!
I remember the hunting mags pushing doe shooting back in the day, it was entirely foreign to us in the West but they kept pushing their Eastern whitetail stuff on us, including climbing into a tree, clothes made to look like a tree (and then put your hunter orange over top of it, about as stupid as it gets) and "scent blocking" sprays. I guarantee some of you still have your butt-out tool and likely carry it with you but you won't admit to it.
Eventually, the everyone-gets-a trophy-crowd came along and they think that somehow our youth won't be happy unless they shoot something and doe shooting became a thing. Personally, I think it was from the increase in constant kids sports, the kids would only have a day or two to hunt instead of the season, with the men in camp learning and apprenticing. Now, guys can't leave the truck without a tacticool 1st aid kit and a satellite messenger beacon, they have no traditional skills.
As far as predators go, every house in the country you walked in to had a .22 or a .410 in the corner for anything, and I mean anything that threatened the chickens. You can use your imagination here, 4-legged and winged, it didn't matter. The same thing happened in the hunting woods too, that's why we didn't have a predator problem 30 years ago, in fact if someone even saw a cougar it was pretty rare.
I know it won't change back again. Just know that your Grandpa and Great Uncle's would mock you relentlessly if they could see you hunt now days. Between jokes about your outfit and your scope with the big knobs on it, they would get a bigger buck (with iron sights) then you, drag it out by themselves, and throw it on the top of a rig and drive it right through the middle of town waving to the folks on the side of the road as they went by. All of this in wool or denim pants with nothing other then a sandwich in their pocket and an extra shell or two.
The generalizations you put in there as ‘absolutes’ of how things ‘used to be’ do not correlate to my experiences. Perhaps in YOUR camp it was that way.
I am ‘fairly’ certain I am older than you, so maybe that all happened after I stopped being ‘part of the group’ and hunted on my own, but in the camps I was in any deer was good. The trophy hunters went for horns, the meat hunters went for either.
Post by: kirkl on October 20, 2022, 08:14:46 AM
It was a bad conclusion to come to Bow. I assumed that all the westside guys wouldn’t be driving to the Methow if they had deer coming out their kazzu, especially with gas costing 6 bucks a gallon. :chuckle: That buys a lot of black angus compared to eating one of those sage brush stinking does.
You spend enough each time you travel to the east side to take your pictures to buy a lot of angus?
LMAO, do you even know where Bone lives?
Post by: nwwanderer on October 20, 2022, 09:08:04 AM
Post by: buckfvr on October 20, 2022, 09:19:48 AM
The generalizations you put in there as ‘absolutes’ of how things ‘used to be’ do not correlate to my experiences. Perhaps in YOUR camp it was that way.
I am ‘fairly’ certain I am older than you, so maybe that all happened after I stopped being ‘part of the group’ and hunted on my own, but in the camps I was in any deer was good. The trophy hunters went for horns, the meat hunters went for either.
As far back as I can remember, my dad and uncles hunted for meat most times as they, being construction workers back in the 60's usually meant slow times for work in the winters. If work was plentiful, they were all buck hunters, ya, they hunted bucks, not trophies. There were far more mature bucks and far less hunters then so most times the bucks they did kill would be considered trophies by todays hunters, even though they weren't actually "trophies" even back then.
Fast forward 40-50 years and you encounter a generation of hunters and non hunters who have put a negative spin on the term "trophy hunter", to the point they actually spit it off their tongues for the fowl taste it leaves them . Even here on a hunting site, trophy is usually used as a derogatory negative almost insult. If you kill a mature buck on here, youre a trophy hunter even though 99% of the bucks so called dont actually reach that officially. I admit, I prefer to hunt mature animals WHEN THEY ARE AVAILABLE which is not always, and matures can be in limited supplies by regions and conditions and events (blue tongue, fire, etc.) making it less likely for success.
I do not, never have hunted doe, it just seems like nothing but killing, no hunt skill necessary. Same goes for spikes and forkies, maybe if they were more wily and not running with mom/sis, they may stoke some interest,but they dont.
I think for here, if you cant take the ridicule, dont be so quick to share stuff. Some folks get pleasure from poking at others. :twocents:
Post by: Ridgeratt on October 20, 2022, 09:28:40 AM
Fast forward 40-50 years and you encounter a generation of hunters and non hunters who have put a negative spin on the term "trophy hunter", to the point they actually spit it off their tongues for the fowl taste it leaves them . Even here on a hunting site, trophy is usually used as a derogatory negative almost insult. If you kill a mature buck on here, youre a trophy hunter even though 99% of the bucks so called dont actually reach that officially. I admit, I prefer to hunt mature animals WHEN THEY ARE AVAILABLE which is not always, and matures can be in limited supplies by regions and conditions and events (blue tongue, fire, etc.) making it less likely for success.
The other term: Is that a "Shooter" Any legal buck is a candidate. But to poll the forum for permission is insane. Like others have said the deer we shot back in the 70's would most likely be considered trophy bucks by todays measure. and they were considered "meat deer" horns were sawed off and thrown in a pile.
Bone I marvel at the quality/quantity of deer you post on this forum. You are posting animals that most people will never see. I salute you. :bow:
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 10:27:06 AM
Quote
To be so egotistical to think I am talking about him specifically is laughable......well unless he has a guilty conscious. One that sits so high on the pedestal to think his way of hunting is the only way to hunt and then partaking in actions that lesson the chance for others to partake in legal hunting is wrong. Again....prove me wrong.
Let’s see, I went from being a terrorist to egotistical to now being high on a pedestal. And no I don’t have a guilty conscious, nor do I have the time or energy to even debate such dribble. You started strong with your points about predators but somehow went down a rabbit hole enough I’m not even going to read the big post. I’m pretty much a straight shooter so i,’m not very good at recognizing word games, insinuations etc.
For us simple minded folk you could say “I think it’s wrong to buy tags just to rip them up.” If that’s your point.
Meanwhile look for the thread “From high on my pedestal”. I’ll post in a bit of a 180 class wa buck from this mornings light.
Edit….. probably 170
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 10:31:07 AM
Post by: Gringo31 on October 20, 2022, 10:34:03 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on October 20, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Addressing winter range/habitat and social tolerance are root causes of lower game abundance - as are predators. Rather than alienate legal hunters with a short term band-aid approach...I'd suggest beating down the door of commercial ag groups, producers, and developers...thats where the hell raising needs to happen...and of course the wdfw commission when it comes to predators :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on October 20, 2022, 10:56:32 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 10:57:06 AM
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
Post by: LongBomb on October 20, 2022, 11:13:55 AM
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:14:03 AM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
Or 60 does, which is what I used to see in my hayfield.
I've seen up to 100
Now about 5, and two small bucks.
When it was 60+ ya some doe culling would have been good, but now? Not so much.....
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 11:14:29 AM
QuoteTo be so egotistical to think I am talking about him specifically is laughable......well unless he has a guilty conscious. One that sits so high on the pedestal to think his way of hunting is the only way to hunt and then partaking in actions that lesson the chance for others to partake in legal hunting is wrong. Again....prove me wrong.
Let’s see, I went from being a terrorist to egotistical to now being high on a pedestal. And no I don’t have a guilty conscious, nor do I have the time or energy to even debate such dribble. You started strong with your points about predators but somehow went down a rabbit hole enough I’m not even going to read the big post. I’m pretty much a straight shooter so i,’m not very good at recognizing word games, insinuations etc.
For us simple minded folk you could say “I think it’s wrong to buy tags just to rip them up.” If that’s your point.
Meanwhile look for the thread “From high on my pedestal”. I’ll post in a bit of a 180 class wa buck from this mornings light.
Edit….. probably 170
Let me be more clear then so you get my point.
1. You started this rant..."STOP KILLING BABY MAKERS".
2. You by your own omission state you put in for and by tag for the sole purpose of destroying them....and have been doing it for years. (this takes away opportunity from other and it is a "legal" opportunity."
3. You state you are not ripping any one person....but otherwise just ranting on your own post, which in turn would suggest you are ranting about all who shoot does.
4. You then post (I'll just cut and paste this one): These are your own words
I am the righteous one I guess.
I hunt with a longbow, when I do hunt, since I chose not to even kill a buck for the last few years, but I figure that’s asking a lot for most hunters, so I will stick with not shooting does.
I do hike in 10 to 14 miles on average
I don’t own a cell phone
I don’t bait
I don’t own a trail camera.
Oh crap, I do own and use binos. I guess I have some improving to do.
There are alot of things contributing. My point here. Stop shooting the baby makers.
Sounds like a pedestal to me......if you don't hunt the way I do......your a baby killer or at a minimum contributing to the declining deer numbers
5. Now you say that I explicitly called you a terrorist....which is 100% false. I get it, in this day in age, when you don't agree with a viewpoint of another, you throw our inflammatory accusations to again peg yourself higher on the pedestal. You clearly are a more righteous hunter than anyone I have ever hunted with...... :kneel: I simply made a correlation of what the antis are doing and what you and a couple others have posted you have and / or continue to do.
6. Based on number 4 above, I do believe your ego (as it pertains to hunting and your righteousness beliefs on how hunters should hunt) is insulting. Take that for what it is, you started this mess. I don't believe anyone that uses legal means to harvest does, bucks, trophies, etc.....is any lesser of a hunter than I am. I celebrate their success regardless of whether or not I share their hunting traditions or methods.
Funny how you can rant and feel the way you feel, but the minute it meets opposition.....you discredit anyone else's statements or arguments.
If you re-read my initial post, I believe what you say has some merit. I just don't feel it is as black and white as you want it to be.
I'll bow out at this point....
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:17:59 AM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:21:29 AM
cause, then she laughs. I think I saw it said earlier how many youngsters watch this forum. Imagine all the up and comers turned off cause the CENSORED FOR YOU GUYS can’t understand deer populations in different parts of the state. Gonna be a good doe harvest coming up :IBCOOL:
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:23:48 AM
I agree with Doug on this one. Just because you can shoot a doe or buy a second deer tag(doe) that doesn't make it right. If shooting a mature doe with a yearling chances are that yearling won't make it thru the next winter. It's time to start thinking about the deer population in places where the population is hurting. All the time I hear about hunters saying all I saw the whole time was 2 does the whole hunt. Seeing only that many does is pathetic. Just because you can shoot a does doesn't mean you should or it's right.
Bear/yote/cougar/ wolf Count so far? Any state?
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:25:07 AM
I agree with Doug on this one. Just because you can shoot a doe or buy a second deer tag(doe) that doesn't make it right. If shooting a mature doe with a yearling chances are that yearling won't make it thru the next winter. It's time to start thinking about the deer population in places where the population is hurting. All the time I hear about hunters saying all I saw the whole time was 2 does the whole hunt. Seeing only that many does is pathetic. Just because you can shoot a does doesn't mean you should or it's right.
Methow resident correct?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:27:32 AM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:29:56 AM
Property on both sides of the state.
You could say no. A lot of us have property but I’m a resident of where I live. And just like you, I don’t live there.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:32:54 AM
Folks still seem focused on symptoms instead of root causes. Lower than desirable deer abundance is a symptom...and hunters killing does is not the root cause. I get it...some would prefer to not have any hunters harvest does even if it is legal...but in the end that does not in any meaningful way address the root causes of low deer numbers in the state.
Addressing winter range/habitat and social tolerance are root causes of lower game abundance - as are predators. Rather than alienate legal hunters with a short term band-aid approach...I'd suggest beating down the door of commercial ag groups, producers, and developers...thats where the hell raising needs to happen...and of course the wdfw commission when it comes to predators :twocents:
Habitat is not an issue in many areas of herd decline, quite contrary. The big fires a few years back has had excellent regrowth and logging has been greatly expanded on national forests cutting out big swaths of land not so favorable to ungulates, but now providing much more winter forage and varied habitat.
We've had a decade plus of mild winters with very little winter kill, but that has been tempered with esd blue tongue losses mostly at lower elevations.
These challenges are fairly static, herds ebb and wane, and spring back.
Except now due to depredation and predator loads the population explosions that could occur, do not.
Everything is there for a population explosion, if predators were better controlled.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:42:08 AM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:42:48 AM
I agree with Doug on this one. Just because you can shoot a doe or buy a second deer tag(doe) that doesn't make it right. If shooting a mature doe with a yearling chances are that yearling won't make it thru the next winter. It's time to start thinking about the deer population in places where the population is hurting. All the time I hear about hunters saying all I saw the whole time was 2 does the whole hunt. Seeing only that many does is pathetic. Just because you can shoot a does doesn't mean you should or it's right.
Bear/yote/cougar/ wolf Count so far? Any state?
Still waiting for this one. Quick to answer my latter question though
Post by: idahohuntr on October 20, 2022, 11:46:19 AM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..Your example is largely predicated on the notion that antlerless hunter harvest is a major factor in how many there are in the 'pen'. I assure you - the ~2,600 does harvested (in all GMU's across the entire state) by hunters has no meaningful impact on the lower than desirable (for hunters) deer abundance across much of the state.
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
I'm all for your pen/cow/bull example...but getting worked up over the least significant factor affecting how many are in your 'pen' is not effective management.
That said - every little tiny fraction can help...but I think its more useful to target the bigger things that are less likely to alienate other hunters.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:48:31 AM
It’s tough to argue when op can’t read and analyze anything that’s said. If it doesn’t work for her
cause, then she laughs. I think I saw it said earlier how many youngsters watch this forum. Imagine all the up and comers turned off cause the CENSORED FOR YOU GUYS can’t understand deer populations in different parts of the state. Gonna be a good doe harvest coming up :IBCOOL:
Bone can handle his own discussion and I wouldn't intervene in that, that said, I won't tolerate name calling, belittling or intentionally trolling this discussion.
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:50:13 AM
It’s tough to argue when op can’t read and analyze anything that’s said. If it doesn’t work for her
cause, then she laughs. I think I saw it said earlier how many youngsters watch this forum. Imagine all the up and comers turned off cause the CENSORED FOR YOU GUYS can’t understand deer populations in different parts of the state. Gonna be a good doe harvest coming up :IBCOOL:
Bone can handle his own discussion and I wouldn't intervene in that, that said, I won't tolerate name calling, belittling or intentionally trolling this discussion.
LOL this is where the line is drawn? Delete what you think you need to chief..
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 11:50:42 AM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 11:53:23 AM
@jrebel his points have not even been addressed or answered just talked around pretty sad
Well that’s because he made great point. The people arguing against common sense won’t reply, at least not with anything of worth. But there will be one or two that pop up to let you and him know you’re out of line.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 11:54:40 AM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..Your example is largely predicated on the notion that antlerless hunter harvest is a major factor in how many there are in the 'pen'. I assure you - the ~2,600 does harvested (in all GMU's across the entire state) by hunters has no meaningful impact on the lower than desirable (for hunters) deer abundance across much of the state.
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
I'm all for your pen/cow/bull example...but getting worked up over the least significant factor affecting how many are in your 'pen' is not effective management.
That said - every little tiny fraction can help...but I think its more useful to target the bigger things that are less likely to alienate other hunters.
We agree IDH, all cause mortality has caused the decline, of which doe harvest state wide is but a drop in the bucket.
I will allow though that doe harvest in bones back yard might be a bigger splash in that bucket than in another unit. I just don't spend much time there, but I know he does, and is concerned enough to endure this public lashing to sound the alarm.
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 12:05:05 PM
@jrebel his points have not even been addressed or answered just talked around pretty sad
Well that’s because he made great point. The people arguing against common sense won’t reply, at least not with anything of worth. But there will be one or two that pop up to let you and him know you’re out of line.
👍
No one is advocating killing the last doe in a unit
The point is me good you bad attitude towards people who are happy and greatful for taking any deer
We should be united as sportsman/women not to the detriment to our herds but be happy for other’s success
Hope that makes sense
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 12:09:34 PM
@jrebel his points have not even been addressed or answered just talked around pretty sad
Well that’s because he made great point. The people arguing against common sense won’t reply, at least not with anything of worth. But there will be one or two that pop up to let you and him know you’re out of line.
👍
No one is advocating killing the last doe in a unit
The point is me good you bad attitude towards people who are happy and greatful for taking any deer
We should be united as sportsman/women not to the detriment to our herds but be happy for other’s success
Hope that makes sense
Yeah I’ gotcha bud. I’m against ops *censored* blanketed statement that she doesn’t even understand. Take a few pictures with a camera and you’re the boss. Should be some tasty does harvested soon
Post by: buckfvr on October 20, 2022, 12:19:43 PM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 12:24:07 PM
Nobody is owed a response and no one is obligated to respond on a public forum, but certainly the snarky rude responses arent called for.
This thread is?
Post by: JakeLand on October 20, 2022, 12:29:53 PM
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 12:40:49 PM
There are a couple guys that know those areas and those deer herds better then most and Bone is one of them
Agreed and for sure there are herds that need less doe harvest my point is the blanket statement STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
and if a person is buying doe tags or second deer tags as to help lessen the harvest is wrong
For the record I’ve enjoyed all of Bones pics and contributions to this site
He’s even given me some pointers on areas
He’s the one who told me about this site on monster muleys back in 2007
I just don’t agree with the blanket statement that will send some people away from this site thats all
And I guarantee the antis that look at this site love the division
Post by: Bowhunter3 on October 20, 2022, 12:47:46 PM
There are a couple guys that know those areas and those deer herds better then most and Bone is one of them
Agreed and for sure there are herds that need less doe harvest my point is the blanket statement STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
and if a person is buying doe tags or second deer tags as to help lessen the harvest is wrong
For the record I’ve enjoyed all of Bones pics and contributions to this site
He’s even given me some pointers on areas
He’s the one who told me about this site on monster muleys back in 2007
I just don’t agree with the blanket statement that will send some people away from this site thats all
And I guarantee the antis that look at this site love the division
They love it, and the amount of ammunition they have gotten from this thread is substantial. But don’t kill does in a section of the state.
Post by: rickomatic on October 20, 2022, 01:02:46 PM
To be fair, I'd say the WDFW has drastically reduced the harvest of antlerless deer and elk in the last few years.They absolutely have. Reduced exponentially. So, if you’re so against some disabled or over 65, or youth taking one off the 5?permits each GMU, then put your money where your mouth is. Put in for those permits, and eat the tags if you get drawn.
For me, I’ve put in my dues (literally) for over 50 years. If I draw an old guy or disabled tag, I’m putting meat in the freezer. The very few does taken has a negligible if non existent effect on the total herd population.
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 01:34:29 PM
Huntfam, also, no worries. Unlike some of the garbage being tossed by a couple members I have no problem with a different opinion, especially from folks I know where they are coming from.
There’s some pretty good discussion on here.
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 01:35:45 PM
Quote
Yeah I’ gotcha bud. I’m against ops *censored* blanketed statement that she doesn’t even understand. Take a few pictures with a camera and you’re the boss. Should be some tasty does harvested soon
This is :chuckle: as hell
Post by: MountainWalk on October 20, 2022, 05:18:49 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 20, 2022, 05:22:18 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on October 20, 2022, 05:23:00 PM
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 05:25:45 PM
The folks all for JR blasting a doe so he can kill something so pops feels like they have something in common, are probably the ones moaning about places like WY uppin non res tags.
You have no idea what your talking about. Just running your mouth to hear your lips flapping. Move on.......
And if I want to burn a cow moose tag for my own reasons, that doesn’t make me an “anti “….
If your burning it for the sole reason of depriving others from the legal opportunity to hunt.....at a minimum it makes you....well I can't call names so I will leave that open ended. It's very closely related to a donkey though..... :tup:
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 05:26:02 PM
What's the connection to this topic? Also, "upping" nonresident tags in Wyoming?
None
Post by: MountainWalk on October 20, 2022, 05:27:49 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 20, 2022, 06:13:03 PM
Some very good point/views from both sides of the aisle.I must be an aberration then. I am absolutely not a trophy hunter. Never killed anything that would be mistaken as one. I hunt for meat and the sport. But I totally agree with Bone. Our deer herds are in terrible shape. Yet people want to kill does. Killing does is a management tool to lower or maintain a population. Do you guys want to lower or maintain or current deer population?
Most here are stuck in their beliefs (right or wrong) and won't be persuaded.
Appears that those who have had many successful seasons killing "trophy" type bucks/bulls lean hard 1 way
Those who just enjoy hunting/eating and are not the stereotypical "horn hunters" hard the other way.
Bone and JR both have very valid points.
How is it resolved....................Definitely not like this thread is going. :bash:
Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 06:22:51 PM
pretty easy cut/dry question
Post by: Tbar on October 20, 2022, 06:33:45 PM
:yeah::dunno: As stated earlier. Some of the harvest is viewed through a social tolerance lens and is considered compensatory.
pretty easy cut/dry question
Post by: GWP on October 20, 2022, 06:39:49 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on October 20, 2022, 06:42:43 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 06:57:54 PM
:yeah::dunno: As stated earlier. Some of the harvest is viewed through a social tolerance lens and is considered compensatory.
pretty easy cut/dry question
what a joke, I'd take your comment more seriously if livestock operations were compensated for the true cost of predators that were foisted upon them with a sham for public input and process, and a wolf plan that's a slap in the face for anyone who considered co-exist options
or if cattle operations enjoyed the same level of considerations as big timber companies where bears are killed by the 100's by APHIS contract killers when it could be done with hunters
or if small ag producers get to enjoy free tags to hand out to their buddies too
or if the comission weren't so emboldened as to freely admit the science and population was there to have a spring bear hunt, but that social considerations was more important contrary to their mission statement and purpose of their jobs
:rolleyes:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 07:00:14 PM
Lots of arm chair quarterbacking. Any of ya'll posters have a degree in wildlife management, with your main studies being ungulates?
Sure we all have emotions that lead us to believe WDFW is surely doing a bad job, But we are not Bios........I will take their advise (on whether or not does should be harvested) long before any members on here. They have done the schooling and work in this field daily.
Yes I spend ALOT of time in the woods, hunting camping, recreating, etc, and am VERY aware of the herd conditions in the areas I frequent.
There is managing game, and managing hunters, totally different things.
Like it or not, JRebel is SPOT ON, and has a very valid point.
Post by: brew on October 20, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 07:07:38 PM
Hmmm,
Lots of arm chair quarterbacking. Any of ya'll posters have a degree in wildlife management, with your main studies being ungulates?
Sure we all have emotions that lead us to believe WDFW is surely doing a bad job, But we are not Bios........I will take their advise (on whether or not does should be harvested) long before any members on here. They have done the schooling and work in this field daily.
Yes I spend ALOT of time in the woods, hunting camping, recreating, etc, and am VERY aware of the herd conditions in the areas I frequent.
There is managing game, and managing hunters, totally different things.
Like it or not, JRebel is SPOT ON, and has a very valid point.
It seems to me, that a degree in wildlife management is proof of indoctrination. It's a hindrance when it comes to listening to those with intimate knowledge dating back decades.
Yaaa, no. A piece of paper does not impress me.
Are there wildlife bio's I listen too? Heck ya! but they rarely post here (and they no longer work for WDFW ;) ) :twocents:
edit
and another issue nock nock, what if the goals of the managers do not align with your own? Ask the bio's you trust what their goals are, and what they're trying to do to reach them
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 07:10:02 PM
Which points did you like of his the most. The one where I’m not an eco terrorist, or I am an ego something or other, or the one where I’m so high on my pedestal.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 07:12:42 PM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
A different perspective....
The corral (WA ST) has 5 bulls (Bucks) and 20 cows (Does).
Hunting season comes along and massive amounts of hunters with various weapons, and 2+ months worth of seasons to kill something.
Hunters kill 4 of the 5 Bucks, The one remaining buck is safe, but he has to migrate, which will quite possibly take him across at least one paved road. WHAMMO, enter the vehicle whos driver is possibly looking at their cell phone and does not see the buck till its to late.
This scenario can only happen if that last buck is lucky enough to escape the ever growing predator population.
The results in the corral are now zero bucks and 9 does (vehicles and preds. got the other 11)
How does the population grow when there are ZERO bucks to breed the does?
PS, forgot to add the length add effects of Native harvest, that should put us in the negative column for bucks,
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 07:13:27 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 20, 2022, 07:14:49 PM
How many does get bred if there are zero does?As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
A different perspective....
The corral (WA ST) has 5 bulls (Bucks) and 20 cows (Does).
Hunting season comes along and massive amounts of hunters with various weapons, and 2+ months worth of seasons to kill something.
Hunters kill 4 of the 5 Bucks, The one remaining buck is safe, but he has to migrate, which will quite possibly take him across at least one paved road. WHAMMO, enter the vehicle whos driver is possibly looking at their cell phone and does not see the buck till its to late.
This scenario can only happen if that last buck is lucky enough to escape the ever growing predator population.
The results in the corral are now zero bucks and 9 does (vehicles and preds. got the other 11)
How does the population grow when there are ZERO bucks to breed the does?
Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 07:24:08 PM
I think a degree in poli sci is more appropriate these days. JReb has lots of good points, but he went whacko on me in this thread and I tuned him out.
Which points did you like of his the most. The one where I’m not an eco terrorist, or I am an ego something or other, or the one where I’m so high on my pedestal.
You keep running off at the mouth and saying things that are not fact. I never used the word "eco". The more you talk, the more I question your motives. You have yet to post a rebuttal for how I am wrong. Most who choose to tune out the oppositions side, do so because they know the opposition has a very valid point.
Hell, just look at the other post you are involved in where the anti's are planning to have a two day meet and greet with elected officials to redefine WDFW priorities. You talk about KY and orgies....yet you are doing the exact same thing here. Trying to impose your will on others. You may have some valid points but it doesn't change the fact that it is legal. Hell, after reading the article.....I thought you were going to be the key note speaker. after revisiting the post to cut and paste your response....it appears you have deleted your post. I'm confused by your words and actions. You can't be against anti's for trying to impose their will on hunters....yet do the exact same thing they are doing. Please help me understand.
And I wouldn’t tell you what my degree is in or my qualifications because it might be used against me in the court of huntwa with Judge Rebel. :chuckle: Don’t tell anyone you don’t own a cell phone, don’t bait etc. :chuckle:
Again....running off at the mouth just to hear your lips flap. Are you off your meds...or just having a really rough day?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
I think a degree in poli sci is more appropriate these days. JReb has lots of good points, but he went whacko on me in this thread and I tuned him out.
Which points did you like of his the most. The one where I’m not an eco terrorist, or I am an ego something or other, or the one where I’m so high on my pedestal.
None of that.
I do agree that intentionally applying/drawing for a permit, and then purposely not utilizing it (when another hunter with diff. beliefs) has lost opportunity because of it is no different than antis doing the same.
What would the outcry be if every year one of the anti-groups, or a wealthy person became a mule and snatched up all the Swakane sheep permits and then stated it was to stop others from killing the rams up there? It is very similar to hunter harassment. (BTW I have spent an entire 2 days in court for a hunter harrassment deal i was on the receiving end of)
I get your point Bone, and partially agree with it..........just not the presentation.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 07:29:07 PM
How many does get bred if there are zero does?As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
A different perspective....
The corral (WA ST) has 5 bulls (Bucks) and 20 cows (Does).
Hunting season comes along and massive amounts of hunters with various weapons, and 2+ months worth of seasons to kill something.
Hunters kill 4 of the 5 Bucks, The one remaining buck is safe, but he has to migrate, which will quite possibly take him across at least one paved road. WHAMMO, enter the vehicle whos driver is possibly looking at their cell phone and does not see the buck till its to late.
This scenario can only happen if that last buck is lucky enough to escape the ever growing predator population.
The results in the corral are now zero bucks and 9 does (vehicles and preds. got the other 11)
How does the population grow when there are ZERO bucks to breed the does?
Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
So then we kill ALL the deer problem solved.
Post by: grundy53 on October 20, 2022, 07:29:13 PM
You better watch the personal attacks. Consider this a warning.I think a degree in poli sci is more appropriate these days. JReb has lots of good points, but he went whacko on me in this thread and I tuned him out.
Which points did you like of his the most. The one where I’m not an eco terrorist, or I am an ego something or other, or the one where I’m so high on my pedestal.
You keep running off at the mouth and saying things that are not fact. I never used the word "eco". The more you talk, the more I question your motives. You have yet to post a rebuttal for how I am wrong. Most who choose to tune out the oppositions side, do so because they know the opposition has a very valid point.
Hell, just look at the other post you are involved in where the anti's are planning to have a two day meet and greet with elected officials to redefine WDFW priorities. You talk about KY and orgies....yet you are doing the exact same thing here. Trying to impose your will on others. You may have some valid points but it doesn't change the fact that it is legal. Hell, after reading the article.....I thought you were going to be the key note speaker. after revisiting the post to cut and paste your response....it appears you have deleted your post. I'm confused by your words and actions. You can't be against anti's for trying to impose their will on hunters....yet do the exact same thing they are doing. Please help me understand.And I wouldn’t tell you what my degree is in or my qualifications because it might be used against me in the court of huntwa with Judge Rebel. :chuckle: Don’t tell anyone you don’t own a cell phone, don’t bait etc. :chuckle:
Again....running off at the mouth just to hear your lips flap. Are you off your meds...or just having a really rough day?
Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 07:30:53 PM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
A different perspective....
The corral (WA ST) has 5 bulls (Bucks) and 20 cows (Does).
Hunting season comes along and massive amounts of hunters with various weapons, and 2+ months worth of seasons to kill something.
Hunters kill 4 of the 5 Bucks, The one remaining buck is safe, but he has to migrate, which will quite possibly take him across at least one paved road. WHAMMO, enter the vehicle whos driver is possibly looking at their cell phone and does not see the buck till its to late.
This scenario can only happen if that last buck is lucky enough to escape the ever growing predator population.
The results in the corral are now zero bucks and 9 does (vehicles and preds. got the other 11)
How does the population grow when there are ZERO bucks to breed the does?
PS, forgot to add the length add effects of Native harvest, that should put us in the negative column for bucks,
You have mentioned the "ever growing predator population"
Is this news to the bio's?
They've had plenty of opportunity to improve that issue, but the 2nd Cougar tag was killed by Inslee and they've initiated a 2 part Cougar season and quota system that a BIO professor and PHD Welgus promoted to WDFW
He's since been outed by his very own college for manipulating the data and lying, I'm sure I can dig up the public letter from WSU somewhere
Since Welgus has been outed and his cougar plan been shown to be a fraud, has WDFW tossed it for something new?
WHY
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 07:34:36 PM
As for your scenario, yeah, we are getting there. I’m not ready to post that topic up yet. :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 20, 2022, 07:44:59 PM
You speak of cougars, so I'll respond to that.
Do you believe without the use of hounds (voter controlled, not Bios) that allowing the harvest of more cats will actually increase the amount killed by any meaningful amount?
Very few folks have ever even seen a coug, let alone hunt for them, or kill one.
I spend more time out there than the average guy. In my 45+ years hunting I have seen 3 Cougars, and only killing 1 of them.
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 07:47:59 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on October 20, 2022, 07:53:04 PM
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 07:53:54 PM
I eat fish. I eat rice.
Do you eat them together?
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 07:55:25 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 07:58:12 PM
KF,
You speak of cougars, so I'll respond to that.
Do you believe without the use of hounds (voter controlled, not Bios) that allowing the harvest of more cats will actually increase the amount killed by any meaningful amount?
Very few folks have ever even seen a coug, let alone hunt for them, or kill one.
I spend more time out there than the average guy. In my 45+ years hunting I have seen 3 Cougars, and only killing 1 of them.
I've seen a dozen in a single year on my highest year, and typically I have at least 3 encounters during hunting season, this year so far only 1 encounter though.
"will it make a meaningful impact on the overall population?" No, fat chance. Most are killed opportunistically and the odds of that happening twice in the same year to the same hunter holding a 2nd tag is very very low.
So why not allow those handful of successful hunters the opportunity to do it twice? I can think of a few hunters who have a reasonable chance at filling both tags. WDFW and the old comission tried to do it, the impact would be very negligible and it would send a message to the populace holding townhall meetings about cougars that WDFW is "doing something".
Is that "something" meaningful? will it reduce conflict? not really in the end, but it would improve WDFW's image a tad. (at least the dog got a tiny bone)
I know that is is against the law for an agency to come out for or against a ballot initiative, but they could have been present during debates and made themselves available to give interviews and informative (but unbiased) discussions on body gripping traps, hounds, bait and whatnot. There are things they could have done and not violated law.
Post by: huntnfmly on October 20, 2022, 07:59:11 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 08:00:52 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/XUFPGrX5Zis6Y/giphy.gif)
Post by: idahohuntr on October 20, 2022, 08:06:17 PM
:tup::yeah::dunno: As stated earlier. Some of the harvest is viewed through a social tolerance lens and is considered compensatory.
pretty easy cut/dry question
Some folks just dont get it. They'd rather fight amongst themselves than address root causes. Spelled out plain as day in every WDFW management plan...ag/ungulate conflict = kill antlerless deer and elk. To those who think they solve the problem by burning the tag...news flash...WDFW just ups tag numbers or issues depredation permits directly to landowners if they don't see the antlerless harvest they would like.
You want more deer and elk - resolve the social tolerance issue. Improve habitat and restore lost or damaged winter range. Reduce predators. Brow beating guys who legally harvest does...not going to move the needle one inch.
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2022, 08:08:00 PM
Many great points were made in this thread on both sides.
If we don’t do something there will be nothing left. My life is steeped with hunting tradition. Now I am basically done. I’m not a troll or ogre. Seeing Bobcats daughter with her doe, their success together, I have nothing but happiness for them. I dropped a bomb. The catalyst fired a debate. I did not intend on so many casualties. I hope maybe people’s eyes were opened even if they are set in their beliefs or ways. Hopefully you took the time to read this and not just assume I’m flapping my lips or gums or whatever.
As for the comment you might be referring to in the other thread, I did remove it. I shouldn’t have said it. I shouldn’t have put the mods in a position to deal with it. Tbar was gracious enough to report it. When I saw the report I removed it instantly. I knew I had done wrong. I feel those people are out to take hunting away from us. Maybe that’s what you thought I was doing and why you said some of the things you did. Who knows.
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
Not even a little bit. The killing of does is for deer herds that are over populated. Show me one deer herd in the state of Washington that qualifies.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 08:10:29 PM
Spelled out plain as day in every WDFW management plan..ungulate conflict = kill wolves.
:tup:
Post by: Timberstalker on October 20, 2022, 08:11:45 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
Not even a little bit. The killing of does is for deer herds that are over populated. Show me one deer herd in the state of Washington that qualifies.
Hanford.
Post by: kirkl on October 20, 2022, 08:17:27 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
Not even a little bit. The killing of does is for deer herds that are over populated. Show me one deer herd in the state of Washington that qualifies.
Hanford.
Lol, how bout give a public land spot that everyone can hunt.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 08:20:27 PM
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 08:24:21 PM
Post by: full choke on October 20, 2022, 08:32:01 PM
I honestly can’t believe that this is even a topic for discussion between so-called sportsmen in this state. PATHETIC.
Dude, literally half this forum thinks "ghost camps" are ok, an old man who bought a permit and killed a branch antlered bull (400+ ") in a spike only unit was cool, and a kid making grrr-ing noise in a bush was fair game to shoot in the dark.
Don't look to this site as a beacon of good judgement...
Post by: Timberstalker on October 20, 2022, 08:32:45 PM
Anybody that shoots a doe in the state of Washington is not a Sportsman in my point of view. Plain and Simple.
You’re joking right?
Not even a little bit. The killing of does is for deer herds that are over populated. Show me one deer herd in the state of Washington that qualifies.
Hanford.
Lol, how bout give a public land spot that everyone can hunt.
That’s not possible, currently.
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 08:39:44 PM
I honestly can’t believe that this is even a topic for discussion between so-called sportsmen in this state. PATHETIC.
Dude, literally half this forum thinks "ghost camps" are ok, an old man who bought a permit and killed a branch antlered bull (400+ ") in a spike only unit was cool, and a kid making grrr-ing noise in a bush was fair game to shoot in the dark.
Don't look to this site as a beacon of good judgement...
That’s been obvious to me for quite some time. Just blows me away what people that call themselves Sportsman are willing to say out loud.
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 08:45:59 PM
JReb. If you’d let some of the red clear from your eyes, you’d possibly see I’m not picking on those people. I am trying to save what we have left. So those people might have a chance for a future. You may think I’m a complete loser, but I really do know a thing or two about deer and what is going on out there. My tactics may not have been sound, as I am a biologist, not a poli sci major. I wanted a discussion, an enlightenment of a possible issue.
Many great points were made in this thread on both sides.
If we don’t do something there will be nothing left. My life is steeped with hunting tradition. Now I am basically done. I’m not a troll or ogre. Seeing Bobcats daughter with her doe, their success together, I have nothing but happiness for them. I dropped a bomb. The catalyst fired a debate. I did not intend on so many casualties. I hope maybe people’s eyes were opened even if they are set in their beliefs or ways. Hopefully you took the time to read this and not just assume I’m flapping my lips or gums or whatever.
As for the comment you might be referring to in the other thread, I did remove it. I shouldn’t have said it. I shouldn’t have put the mods in a position to deal with it. Tbar was gracious enough to report it. When I saw the report I removed it instantly. I knew I had done wrong. I feel those people are out to take hunting away from us. Maybe that’s what you thought I was doing and why you said some of the things you did. Who knows.
First....thank you
Second.....
Never questioned your knowledge on deer....did / do question your approach on saving our deer herds. Also question your approach to todays thread. It did generate 15 pages in less than 24 hours so I guess you can say it generated good discussion, though very polarizing and divisive to hunters.
Believe it or not.....we share the same sentiment that our deer herds are in decline and something needs to be done. We likely would share a lot of the same thoughts on how this can be achieved. We differ in the sense that stopping all doe / cow harvest an answer. I believe it is equally important to maintain hunting opportunity and youth recruitment. I believe doe harvest, provide a small piece of this puzzle. I also believe the doe harvest numbers are so low that they are negligible in the whole scheme of things......we likely will agree to disagree on this point. It also stuck a nerve to hear members were getting tags for the sole reason of destroying them....thus taking opportunity away from others who don't share their same opinions.
I am not a biologist....but I do have a degree and am not dumb. I have hunted (actively with a weapon) since I was 8. Hunting has and continues to be one of my biggest passions. I don't brag about what I do....so only the people close to me understand how much hunting means to me. I do my part by chasing bears, managing my piece of earth for quality and advocating for healthier herds.....thus me not killing a big game animal (except bear) in many years. I hunt hard for my kids and want to pass on the tradition. I help new hunters kill bears in areas that have an abundance. Well, enough about me....hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.
Anyhow.....carry on. I wish you the best on your endeavors and hope there are no hard feeling.
Post by: full choke on October 20, 2022, 08:47:05 PM
I honestly can’t believe that this is even a topic for discussion between so-called sportsmen in this state. PATHETIC.
Dude, literally half this forum thinks "ghost camps" are ok, an old man who bought a permit and killed a branch antlered bull (400+ ") in a spike only unit was cool, and a kid making grrr-ing noise in a bush was fair game to shoot in the dark.
Don't look to this site as a beacon of good judgement...
That’s been obvious to me for quite some time. Just blows me away what people that call themselves Sportsman are willing to say out loud.
For the record- I am not opposed to killing does if the biology says it is ok.
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 20, 2022, 08:50:43 PM
Pathetic.
Pretty sad look for the forum.
Btw I have personally harvested antlerless animals in WA in my 40 year's of hunting. So put me on top of the "not a sportsman" list.
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 08:57:11 PM
I can't believe so called sportsman are judging and belittling people for their personal and legal harvest choices.
Pathetic.
Pretty sad look for the forum.
Btw I have personally harvested antlerless animals in WA in my 40 year's of hunting. So put me on top of the "not a sportsman" list.
:yeah: :yeah:
I think the majority of hunters / sportsman would fall into this category. The one's that don't....good on you. I'm equally as happy that you made the choices you did and only killed bucks. I bet they were all trophy bucks too because killing one with milk on it's lips would be very unsportsmanlike......(sarcasm)
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 09:00:47 PM
I honestly can’t believe that this is even a topic for discussion between so-called sportsmen in this state. PATHETIC.
Dude, literally half this forum thinks "ghost camps" are ok, an old man who bought a permit and killed a branch antlered bull (400+ ") in a spike only unit was cool, and a kid making grrr-ing noise in a bush was fair game to shoot in the dark.
Don't look to this site as a beacon of good judgement...
That’s been obvious to me for quite some time. Just blows me away what people that call themselves Sportsman are willing to say out loud.
For the record- I am not opposed to killing does if the biology says it is ok
I pretty much said the same thing above. I personally have no desire to shoot a doe but if the herd can handle it or if it is deemed necessary to sustain a healthy herd I have no problems with doe hunts.
Post by: browney5er on October 20, 2022, 09:09:03 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 09:13:55 PM
I can't believe so called sportsman are judging and belittling people for their personal and legal harvest choices.
Pathetic.
Pretty sad look for the forum.
Btw I have personally harvested antlerless animals in WA in my 40 year's of hunting. So put me on top of the "not a sportsman" list.
:yeah: :yeah:
I think the majority of hunters / sportsman would fall into this category. The one's that don't....good on you. I'm equally as happy that you made the choices you did and only killed bucks. I bet they were all trophy bucks too because killing one with milk on it's lips would be very unsportsmanlike......(sarcasm)
He said he's killed anterless, why the attack? He's agreed with you since the beginning of this thread :chuckle: :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: jrebel on October 20, 2022, 09:17:53 PM
I can't believe so called sportsman are judging and belittling people for their personal and legal harvest choices.
Pathetic.
Pretty sad look for the forum.
Btw I have personally harvested antlerless animals in WA in my 40 year's of hunting. So put me on top of the "not a sportsman" list.
:yeah: :yeah:
I think the majority of hunters / sportsman would fall into this category. The one's that don't....good on you. I'm equally as happy that you made the choices you did and only killed bucks. I bet they were all trophy bucks too because killing one with milk on it's lips would be very unsportsmanlike......(sarcasm)
He said he's killed anterless, why the attack? He's agreed with you :dunno: :dunno:
I’m agreeing with him. I’m disagreeing with the guy (s) making statements about people who kill does…not being sportsmen. Maybe could have worded it different. The guys that only kill bucks are awesome…especially if they are only killing mature bucks. My guess is this is not the case. They have likely killed small bucks which is where the sarcasm came into play.
100% agree with fiahandgamereaper.
Post by: KFhunter on October 20, 2022, 09:19:26 PM
As a youth if I brought home anything bigger than a forkie I got chewed out by pops :chuckle:
"why'd you bring that old nasty thing home for?!"
Post by: Lapua07 on October 20, 2022, 09:37:03 PM
Please continue to post pictures of big muleys. I don't see them any more. Regardless of what wdfw,natives, predators....are doing.. I hardly post or login to argue anymore. I don't have the time. Between kids work and maintaining cows I'm about to buy a camera myself. Opinions are like the hind end of political ideals.. no need to say anything more. I'm just happy to be in the mountains.
Post by: Jake Dogfish on October 20, 2022, 10:57:16 PM
The wdfw is promoting predators and it is inhumane to starve them. You never hear that at commission meetings.
Post by: boneaddict on October 21, 2022, 04:11:50 AM
I know the predator agenda has a lot to do with all this Jake. My Dad talked about this as far back as I can remember.
Post by: Onewhohikes on October 21, 2022, 05:41:02 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 21, 2022, 06:06:10 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on October 21, 2022, 06:23:55 AM
I will have to agree with the OP in that there is way too many doe tags given out when you count all the different groups. No to say that's a blanket statement for all areas like the islands. It just seems that cutting back for a while until some kind of rebuilding should be in order. That combined with predator control seem to be the best avenue. I just know that in areas like the Methow a person used to seen tons of doe and to go out and not see a single one in the high country is rediculous. Not everyone has the ability/time to hunt predators, and we can't hunt wolves. I believe reducing/eliminating doe permits along with predator control is the key. Something has to be done because we are on a slippery slope to non existence. If you were to look at the overall Helecopter deer survey numbers for units they do them in you would be astonished by the low deer population. Hunters are the true conservationists but sometimes we don't act like it.
Of course not! I'm only here to brag about what benefits me and mine... I shoot cow elk but don't see the purpose in shooting a doe. I hardly shoot bucks half the time unless it's huge cuz I focus on elk hunting. Maybe just shut down all mule deer hunting West of the Columbia for about 5-6 years. That would help a bit. :dunno:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2022, 06:47:51 AM
I think most can agree alot of herds are down in population.
Deer survival is what is needed to improve herds, not just does, bucks too, it does take 2 to tango. :-* :-* :-* :-*
Why can we not get behind and support improvements that do not involve loss of opportunity?
#1 Multi-season permits should be gone.
#2 Better protection of wintering grounds. Ever seen how many deer get killed on the Wenatchee-Cash.-L Town Hwy? Wildlife fencing would
ease this loss ***BTW, nobody is maintaining the Swak sheep fence, it worked at the start, but now with all the holes in it sheep are getting
on the road constantly and getting hit.
#3 Kill more predators, its hard hunting, but ya got to be out there.
#4 Shorten Archery season, and make OTC antlerless units draw only with limited permits. (I hunt archery and am willing to give this up for my
user group) IF
#5 Make modern season a touch bit earlier, or shorter. Just like this year with snow coming during the season, it happens most years, puts deer
on the move and makes them easier to see.
#6 Legislate/Enlighten/Inform/ of Native hunting that is not science/quantity/monitored properly.
I could go on, but you should get the idea here............ALL of the above would have a positive effect on the herds population. Lets try every thing possible before we take away opportunity from anyone who just wants to kill a deer (doe) Some folks are not able to hunt easily to be able to do what is needed to kill a buck.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2022, 06:50:26 AM
I will have to agree with the OP in that there is way too many doe tags given out when you count all the different groups. No to say that's a blanket statement for all areas like the islands. It just seems that cutting back for a while until some kind of rebuilding should be in order. That combined with predator control seem to be the best avenue. I just know that in areas like the Methow a person used to seen tons of doe and to go out and not see a single one in the high country is rediculous. Not everyone has the ability/time to hunt predators, and we can't hunt wolves. I believe reducing/eliminating doe permits along with predator control is the key. Something has to be done because we are on a slippery slope to non existence. If you were to look at the overall Helecopter deer survey numbers for units they do them in you would be astonished by the low deer population. Hunters are the true conservationists but sometimes we don't act like it.
Of course not! I'm only here to brag about what benefits me and mine... I shoot cow elk but don't see the purpose in shooting a doe. I hardly shoot bucks half the time unless it's huge cuz I focus on elk hunting. Maybe just shut down all mule deer hunting West of the Columbia for about 5-6 years. That would help a bit. :dunno:
That would do dangerous things to the blacktail population.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2022, 07:34:22 AM
How many of you have been out in the field and seen does without fawns? Guessing everyone. I personally see more without than with. How come????
Many factors to fawn recruitment/survival…..one of them being not enough bucks to service all the does. We kill to many bucks with all of our modern equipment.
Do we stop all hunting to save the herds?
Will the natives and poachers follow suit?
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2022, 07:36:23 AM
All tbe does get covered by bucks, when the buck to doe ratio is way akimbo does and cows might get a 2nd estrus, the problem with this is it spreads out the fawn or calf drop, which in turns lengthens the vulnerable duration and ends up with more eaten by predators, there is safty in numbers
Also, older prime bucks and bulls are far more efficient at breeding, their fawn and calves survive better cause they drop together, so this lends a sound argument for 4 pt min restrictions.
Post by: boneaddict on October 21, 2022, 07:40:46 AM
Yeah, most does without fawns now I think you can thank a local coyote or bear for. I see about as many old barren doe as I do old gnarly mossbacks
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 21, 2022, 08:43:17 AM
.
As far as management goes ..Is it a piece of the puzzle. Yes. And I'm pretty sure I haven't condoned killing antlerelss in area's with poor herd health. But there is a time and place and it's totally acceptable in my book.
Many mention herd numbers. Are you guys burning your general tag to. Saving a deer is saving a deer is it not.
Would you guys be willing to give up multi season.
Second deer.
Go to Mule deer draw only.
Or better yet pick your flavor ..BT, WT or Muley.... Or follow the elk model. East or west.
All of these would have huge impacts on herd health.
Are we all in....or just picking and choosing. :dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2022, 08:50:07 AM
"COVID is exploding testicles!"
Oh ya, that was a gooder!
Post by: kramman on October 21, 2022, 09:39:03 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on October 21, 2022, 09:49:12 AM
Post by: kramman on October 21, 2022, 09:56:33 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 21, 2022, 09:58:51 AM
Quote
Are you guys burning your general tag to.
6 years now, but I hurt peoples feelings asking them not to shoot a doe :o I'll let you craft that roll out.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 21, 2022, 10:16:12 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2022, 02:33:18 PM
Fawns are tough to see in fields, I know as I've run em over with haying equipment. I hope your not looking at does in tbe fields during summer months and tbinking their barren :dunno:
All tbe does get covered by bucks, when the buck to doe ratio is way akimbo does and cows might get a 2nd estrus, the problem with this is it spreads out the fawn or calf drop, which in turns lengthens the vulnerable duration and ends up with more eaten by predators, there is safty in numbers
Also, older prime bucks and bulls are far more efficient at breeding, their fawn and calves survive better cause they drop together, so this lends a sound argument for 4 pt min restrictions.
Been around the woods for close to 50 years, I know a thing or 2 about deer/fawns.
Throwing out a blanket statement of all the does get covered is simply not true.
If it was true we would not be in near the predicament we are today in population numbers, safety in numbers as you pointed out.
Yes more mature bucks and bulls are better at breeding, but those are the ones everybody shoots.
I asked this already why not put restrictions on the amount of bucks to get taken?
Some does will not let an inferior buck breed them it’s not good for the species……… kind of like me when I was younger only certain pretty ones would work :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2022, 03:23:29 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 21, 2022, 04:09:59 PM
Quote
I asked this already why not put restrictions on the amount of bucks to get taken?
So funny story. I’m pretty sure it was Bobcat that I used to go round and round about this with. Whoever it was thought we better go to draw only for mule deer. I pushed back seriously because I didn’t want to give up my hunting every year, especially so some westsiders could come hunt my hometown. I did quite well, and didn’t want my opportunity cut, and hunting was tradition and a way of life for me. As posted before, I have self cut for 6 years, so what would be the difference. Anyhow, I probably can relate to some guy coming on here saying what I have about this.
I defended antler restrictions, that’s a whole other debate.
Draw only is closer than you might think. It doesn’t help that many of us are pointed out and sick of it.
Post by: GWP on October 21, 2022, 04:25:54 PM
Ahhh yes! Shades of working on a farm in Montana! Nearly every year we would get fresh deer during hay season.
Post by: Pac_NW on October 21, 2022, 04:28:45 PM
QuoteAre you guys burning your general tag to.
6 years now, but I hurt peoples feelings asking them not to shoot a doe :o I'll let you craft that roll out.
imo burning a general tag only lowers the % of deer taken in the state that the WDFW uses to estimate numbers. If that occurs than the state will issue more tags and assume more deer are out there than actually are.
Post by: Ridgeratt on October 21, 2022, 04:33:41 PM
Post by: buckfvr on October 21, 2022, 05:18:19 PM
As much as I agree with you with the oh so many factors…..
This is what I am spelling out.
If you have a corral with a bull and 2 cows in it. You kill one of the cows, what does that do to next years production.
Now if your last cow dies of a disease, lightning strike, or a coyote eats it’s calf, where are you on production.
If you have a bull and 10 cows, eating one, not such a big deal
If you have a pen with a bull and 15 cows, you better eat one so they don’t starve or get diseased.
What I am hearing from some is that we are entitled to eat that cow as it’s perfectly legal to do so. the ranch is being run by some dimwit back in Olympia, who probably has never set foot on a farm, but is advising that yes, that last cow looks tasty. Let’s eat her!
I’m afraid so buckfvr
A different perspective....
The corral (WA ST) has 5 bulls (Bucks) and 20 cows (Does).
Hunting season comes along and massive amounts of hunters with various weapons, and 2+ months worth of seasons to kill something.
Hunters kill 4 of the 5 Bucks, The one remaining buck is safe, but he has to migrate, which will quite possibly take him across at least one paved road. WHAMMO, enter the vehicle whos driver is possibly looking at their cell phone and does not see the buck till its to late.
This scenario can only happen if that last buck is lucky enough to escape the ever growing predator population.
The results in the corral are now zero bucks and 9 does (vehicles and preds. got the other 11)
How does the population grow when there are ZERO bucks to breed the does?
PS, forgot to add the length add effects of Native harvest, that should put us in the negative column for bucks,
Everyone has overlooked the saving aspect of all this doom. The commission. They wont let this happen, they will step in and close hunting season to save us from ourselves. In so doing, they will preserve the seed crop of animals we were hell bent on destroying. Change is coming, and its not going to look like any of these fantasy lists. :twocents:
Post by: Jake Dogfish on October 21, 2022, 06:28:51 PM
This makes no sense to me. :sry:QuoteAre you guys burning your general tag to.
6 years now, but I hurt peoples feelings asking them not to shoot a doe :o I'll let you craft that roll out.
imo burning a general tag only lowers the % of deer taken in the state that the WDFW uses to estimate numbers. If that occurs than the state will issue more tags and assume more deer are out there than actually are.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 21, 2022, 07:04:54 PM
You think hot does don't get attention due to lack of bucks?
They can be as hot as you like, if there is no buck there to do the deed..........I guess there is always immaculate conception.
As a possible scenario.....the last deer to show on one of my cams last year was a doe. 6000' on December 22nd, 12"+ of snow. This is in a migration area.
It is quite possible that this doe never got bred. :dunno: One would typically believe that the bucks will be in the general area of where the majority of does are when they come into heat. In this area, that would be several thousand feet lower elevation, and 10-15 miles as a crow flies away.
Again it is nearly impossible for EVERY doe to get bred.
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2022, 08:24:17 PM
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
Post by: Lapua07 on October 21, 2022, 08:26:24 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 21, 2022, 08:27:46 PM
got some good distance going there :chuckle:
Post by: Lapua07 on October 21, 2022, 08:28:25 PM
Post by: Lapua07 on October 21, 2022, 08:32:41 PM
Quit worrying about killing and start enjoying what most don't.
He's neat. Hardly cares if we see deer let alone killing one. He's probably friends with more natives then I'll ever be. Even the game gougers we talked to this year were more than happy to give him stickers. Just glad to call him mine.
Post by: GWP on October 21, 2022, 08:58:46 PM
Mule deer hunting with a 6 year old is going flawlessly
Really cool pic!
Post by: NRA4LIFE on October 21, 2022, 09:03:07 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 05:46:50 AM
Post by: C-Money on October 22, 2022, 08:58:32 AM
Post by: Ironhead on October 22, 2022, 09:31:28 AM
1) Cougars are in very very healthy numbers.
2) A lot of the healthiest mature Bucks do not come down low to breed. They will stay up high 4000 feet and breed the remaining Does up high. Until the snow is DEEP!
3) There is a lot of interbreeding going on between Muley's and Blacktails as well as Muley's and Whitetails.
4) A young, rutted up Buck will cover a lot of ground looking for hot Does.
5) Younger Bucks 2-3.5 year olds are doing the majority of the breeding.
6) Not many Fawns born the last 2 years.
7) Does are getting pounded in the early season by short range weapon hunters. Many of these Does have Fawns.
Just some of my observations living in the middle of prime Mule Deer winter ground.
Post by: bearpaw on October 22, 2022, 09:33:35 AM
You can look at all the cities and towns that have deer infestations, farmer fields full of deer and elk, oilfields with trophy elk and deer, and it shows humans can be compatible with ungulates. Consistently through the years my best hunting is mostly on leased ranch lands that are heavily grazed by cattle and sheep. One of my best elk hunts and also a good deer hunt is also one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the west. Yet I can go into excellent winter range areas in northeast WA that used to be full of deer in late winter and its hard to find any deer, further proof that winter range is not the most limiting factor.
With all of that said, if you talk to most biologists in hunting oriented states (not Washington) they will tell you that antlerless hunting is used to regulate herd size. Because many Washington herds are probably at or near all time lows I have to say at this time I somewhat agree with boneaddict because every doe in these areas is needed for fawning.
Here's where I have to disagree, once the WDFW sets a season and includes xxx doe permits in an area, I don't blame anyone for applying for the permit, if they don't get it someone else will? Like many other hunters I like to eat wild game, I put in for lots of antlerless tags through the years and will continue to do so. Perhaps if hunters could all agree to all throw away doe tags in areas with low deer or elk numbers that could make a difference, honestly I don't think that would ever happen.
It's going to be a very slow deer recovery this time due to the unprecedented predator footprint in Washington, I doubt herds will ever reach the numbers they once were, with so many predators that mathematically seems impossible. :twocents:
Post by: borntoslay on October 22, 2022, 09:48:26 AM
I'm convinced mother nature, in the form of hard winters and blue tongue or other diseases has the largest impact on ungulate herd numbers. In a single month our herds can go from robust to dismal. Humans certainly can have big impacts via hunting, auto collisions, land use, letting dogs run loose, etc., but human impacts are nothing like the hard courses of nature!Blue tongue definitely hit the blues foothills hard last year. Normally see tons of whitetails saw 2 does last year. Saw around 20 this year and 1 small buck so thats promising. They will come back but will take time. Muleys seem to be doing OK though
You can look at all the cities and towns that have deer infestations, farmer fields full of deer and elk, oilfields with trophy elk and deer, and it shows humans can be compatible with ungulates. Consistently through the years my best hunting is mostly on leased ranch lands that are heavily grazed by cattle and sheep. One of my best elk hunts and also a good deer hunt is also one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the west. Yet I can go into excellent winter range areas in northeast WA that used to be full of deer in late winter and its hard to find any deer, further proof that winter range is not the most limiting factor.
With all of that said, if you talk to most biologists in hunting oriented states (not Washington) they will tell you that antlerless hunting is used to regulate herd size. Because many Washington herds are probably at or near all time lows I have to say at this time I somewhat agree with boneaddict because every doe in these areas is needed for fawning.
Here's where I have to disagree, once the WDFW sets a season and includes xxx doe permits in an area, I don't blame anyone for applying for the permit, if they don't get it someone else will? Like many other hunters I like to eat wild game, I put in for lots of antlerless tags through the years and will continue to do so. Perhaps if hunters could all agree to all throw away doe tags in areas with low deer or elk numbers that could make a difference, honestly I don't think that would ever happen.
It's going to be a very slow deer recovery this time due to the unprecedented predator footprint in Washington, I doubt herds will ever reach the numbers they once were, with so many predators that mathematically seems impossible. :twocents:
Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk
Post by: browney5er on October 22, 2022, 09:52:14 AM
I'm convinced mother nature, in the form of hard winters and blue tongue or other diseases has the largest impact on ungulate herd numbers. In a single month our herds can go from robust to dismal. Humans certainly can have big impacts via hunting, auto collisions, land use, letting dogs run loose, etc., but human impacts are nothing like the hard courses of nature!
You can look at all the cities and towns that have deer infestations, farmer fields full of deer and elk, oilfields with trophy elk and deer, and it shows humans can be compatible with ungulates. Consistently through the years my best hunting is mostly on leased ranch lands that are heavily grazed by cattle and sheep. One of my best elk hunts and also a good deer hunt is also one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the west. Yet I can go into excellent winter range areas in northeast WA that used to be full of deer in late winter and its hard to find any deer, further proof that winter range is not the most limiting factor.
With all of that said, if you talk to most biologists in hunting oriented states (not Washington) they will tell you that antlerless hunting is used to regulate herd size. Because many Washington herds are probably at or near all time lows I have to say at this time I somewhat agree with boneaddict because every doe in these areas is needed for fawning.
Here's where I have to disagree, once the WDFW sets a season and includes xxx doe permits in an area, I don't blame anyone for applying for the permit, if they don't get it someone else will? Like many other hunters I like to eat wild game, I put in for lots of antlerless tags through the years and will continue to do so. Perhaps if hunters could all agree to all throw away doe tags in areas with low deer or elk numbers that could make a difference, honestly I don't think that would ever happen.
It's going to be a very slow deer recovery this time due to the unprecedented predator footprint in Washington, I doubt herds will ever reach the numbers they once were, with so many predators that mathematically seems impossible. :twocents:
Amen
Post by: jackelope on October 22, 2022, 10:16:33 AM
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them. My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.
Post by: hunter399 on October 22, 2022, 11:06:58 AM
Can that buck move freely through the hunting pressure to breed doe.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 11:16:11 AM
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them. My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.
It's maff man :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 11:30:38 AM
Quote
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I imagine it would especially with a cow tag in your pocket. Honestly wasn’t considering elk. They seem to be doing surprisingly well wherever I go. Idahunters point plays an important role with this. I was mostly focused on deer and Oil. I do know they are having recruitment issues due to predators for elk in some zones. I’d imagine the concept of not shooting momma is realistic a bit since they spend so much time and energy for folks not to shoot nanny’s versus Billy’s.
Anyhow to answer your questions
I’m not sure in the whitetail units or Muley units there is a 1:5 ratio anywhere.
I assume one doe breeds with one buck. not so for sheep, I filmed 10 different rams breed a ewe.
healthy buck to doe management is as you stated 1:5. Or at least what management goal is. Some scientists say 1:1 is healthy, and 1:10 is acceptable.
Anecdotally I think the ratio is closer to 1:10
Whereas managing to a desired buck to doe ratio, I don’t think the factor should be at this point with an overall population at a 20+ year low give or take one year, to shoot more does to make ratio.
I’m curious what the experts think with cWD on the forfront if they want manage for more deer to account forexpected losses, or fewer deer to stall spread.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 11:31:24 AM
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them. My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.
It's maff man :chuckle:
Ok
start with 1000 doe in an area and 200 bucks, a 5:1 ratio before hunting season
a whopping 180 bucks get shot! Now we got 1000 does and 20 bucks wow, 80:1 ratio not good!
add in natural mortality, make it 10% for easy maff, it doesn't matter what the real % is because more does will die than bucks in a pretty static ratio.
Now we got 800 does and *gasp* 18 bucks! 90:1 ratio!
now it's birthing season, 800 does drop a 50/50 mix of does and bucks, how many does did or didn't get bred doesn't matter, they'll have a close to 50/50 mix of sexes
now add in fawn recruitment, it doesn't matter for sex ratio what the recruitment is because buck and doe fawn will die in equal ratio's. There's no difference to a predator or other all cause mortality. 800 does put out 200 new does and 200 new bucks in a very high 50% mortality rate.
Now we got 1000 does again and 218 bucks
The ratio has improved from 5:1 to 4 something to 1
sex ratios are self correcting, it has nothing to do with herd decline or growth, the buck doe ratio can't really ever get more than about 5:1
This self correction happens year over year
If you want more deer, don't kill the baby makers.
If you want less deer, let the predators kill more fawns, and hunt does
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 11:44:26 AM
It's a snowball effect
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 11:58:31 AM
QuoteThe blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I imagine it would especially with a cow tag in your pocket. Honestly wasn’t considering elk. They seem to be doing surprisingly well wherever I go. Idahunters point plays an important role with this. I was mostly focused on deer and Oil. I do know they are having recruitment issues due to predators for elk in some zones. I’d imagine the concept of not shooting momma is realistic a bit since they spend so much time and energy for folks not to shoot nanny’s versus Billy’s.
Anyhow to answer your questions
I’m not sure in the whitetail units or Muley units there is a 1:5 ratio anywhere.
I assume one doe breeds with one buck. not so for sheep, I filmed 10 different rams breed a ewe.
healthy buck to doe management is as you stated 1:5. Or at least what management goal is. Some scientists say 1:1 is healthy, and 1:10 is acceptable.
Anecdotally I think the ratio is closer to 1:10
Whereas managing to a desired buck to doe ratio, I don’t think the factor should be at this point with an overall population at a 20+ year low give or take one year, to shoot more does to make ratio.
I’m curious what the experts think with cWD on the forfront if they want manage for more deer to account forexpected losses, or fewer deer to stall spread.
less deer and less baiting stalls cwd, but that's not the goal, but the solution fits the goal, so a useful tool
less deer regulates predators in the long run, but creates chaos in getting there
wolves move to livestock, makes those operations less profitable = less cattle on public lands and private
already sheep herder and timber co agreements have failed = more spraying noxious weeds
declining ungulates = less success, less hunters, less opportunities and eventually end of hunting
this is a long term plan that may take generations to complete, but they've identified steps and are following a blueprint called "rewilding America"
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 12:05:27 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 22, 2022, 12:38:48 PM
If you added even 10 or 20 does per year to my maff above that got hunted, you'll see the population go down substantially in 5 years
It's a snowball effect
Doesn’t happen in the whitetail QDMA world, which is realistically where most of this sort of science really happens. It would be interesting to hear a pro’s take on this, specific to mule deer.
If you do enough looking around online at studies and such, it seems to support shooting does but again, most of that is probably in the Midwest whitetail woods.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 12:51:16 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 01:06:20 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 22, 2022, 01:31:46 PM
Post by: Bob33 on October 22, 2022, 01:45:03 PM
https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/mule-deer-doe-hunts
Post by: mburrows on October 22, 2022, 01:49:56 PM
Habitat loss, predators and “other legal take” are the biggest impacts on mule deer in my opinion.
It blows my mind that WA hands out unlimited mule deer tags regardless of sex.
PS I was one of the guys that hit up bone when I was figuring out how the hell to kill deer, bone probably knows mule deer better than 99% of the population so I certainly respect his opinion.
Back to waiting for the clouds to lift so I can go find elk…
Post by: Alchase on October 22, 2022, 02:13:02 PM
My two cents is that legal harvest is such a small drop in the bucket it doesn’t make an impact. I do wish it was all permit though for either sex. Doe harvest should be limited to youth, 65+, disabled, etc. I see so many does hit along I90 and hwy 97, gotta be far more than get punched with an arrow or bullet any given year. Legal harvest is the least of mule deer concern in my book but at the same time it make frustrates me that we can shoot mule deer does or bucks unlimited OTC.
Habitat loss, predators and “other legal take” are the biggest impacts on mule deer in my opinion.
It blows my mind that WA hands out unlimited mule deer tags regardless of sex.
Back to waiting for the clouds to lift so I can go find elk…
I told myself I would not post in this thread, because I am conflicted.
If the herds were healthy, I believe having Doe hunts is a great way to get youth hunters into hunting.
Then I remember about 10 -12 years ago in the Methow, they had what I now call the massive meat hunt. Hundreds and hundreds of does taken, supposedly by youth hunters.
There was a camp down from us who had fourteen youth hunters in it, with four adults, two men and two women. The women did not hunt. Opening day afternoon, they had 10 does hanging. A group of the kids were playing as we walked by. I asked if they had got their deer yet? One kid says ya we all did! They were looking at each other like they kust got caught steeling cookies. I asked good for you, which one is yours? He got really scared and stopped talking. We continued on and I hear one of them say, it's OK you did not say Uncle Joe shot all the deer! :bash:
They ended up with 14 does and a 3x2 by Monday when they packed up and left.
That was just one of hundreds of camps. That year was just a meat market slaughter of does. There was a dramatic decline in dear numbers the following years. I honestly do not think the Methow ever recovered from that mass slaughter.
So for me personally, I would not shoot a doe. For multiple reasons:
First, there is no hunt in it.
Second, I do not need the meat to warrant taking a doe.
Three, I just can't see how the herds can continue if the mothers are removed, and they are already getting hammered so bad by "other demographic" groups, predators, and loss of habitat.
Post by: jrebel on October 22, 2022, 02:17:53 PM
Example:
2013:
Total # Hunters: 123,928
Total # deer harvested: 33,657
Percent: 27.2%
(Antlerless harvest) 6,209
2021:
Total # Hunters: 102,262
Total # deer harvested: 24,318
Percent: 24.0%
(Antlerless harvest) 2,653
To me these numbers say a few folks on this site are doom and gloom over the wrong reason. The numbers would indicate our biggest problem is declining number of hunters over the years. The percentage of deer kill would indicate a population of deer that has remained relatively stable (not saying it is great...but stable). It also shows that the doe harvest rate has been cut by over half in just 8 short years....which could indicate our bio's do have a bit of a clue. These numbers have waxed and waned as the years have gone by but the overall percentage of harvest has remained in the 23-26% ish. I suspect bearpaw is correct and the largest factor effecting our herds is weather and disease. In the NE the recovery will likely be slow due to predators. In the Palouse, the recovery will be quicker due to lack of predators.....as long as the winters and disease don't deal another dose of bad news.
My point being......right, wrong or indifferent....opportunity from a percentage standpoint has remained the same for at least the last 8 years. Taking away doe harvest for kids / disabled / over 65 will continue to drop overall hunter participation. To me that is a bigger danger to us losing our hunting heritage.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 02:33:35 PM
Example:
2013:
Total # Hunters: 123,928
Total # deer harvested: 33,657
Percent: 27.2%
(Antlerless harvest) 6,209
2021:
Total # Hunters: 102,262
Total # deer harvested: 24,318
Percent: 24.0%
(Antlerless harvest) 2,653
20k less hunters -in theory- should yeild increased success rates if the herds had remained the same all else being equal.
Instead were seeing both declining hunter #'s and lower success rates.
Post by: jackelope on October 22, 2022, 02:34:05 PM
From Idaho Fish and Game:
https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/mule-deer-doe-hunts
This is in line with some of the things I’ve read on this topic. Thanks for sharing.
Post by: jrebel on October 22, 2022, 02:37:42 PM
Does it concern you that less hunters but also less success rates
Example:
2013:
Total # Hunters: 123,928
Total # deer harvested: 33,657
Percent: 27.2%
(Antlerless harvest) 6,209
2021:
Total # Hunters: 102,262
Total # deer harvested: 24,318
Percent: 24.0%
(Antlerless harvest) 2,653
Less hunters in tbeory, should yeild increased success rstes if the herds had remained the same. Instead were seeing both declining hunter #'s and lower success rates.
I’m not sure I agree with less hunters and higher success rates. It’s been proven time and time again that 10% of hunters kill 90% of the game. Most hunters don’t hunt hunt as hard and have far less success. They hunt for tradition and the social aspect. The percentages support my theory…..though only a theory. :dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 02:42:53 PM
From Idaho Fish and Game:
https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/mule-deer-doe-hunts
This is in line with some of the things I’ve read on this topic. Thanks for sharing.
Habitat Habitat Habitat ad nauseum
We can't do anything about people buying land and plopping a house on it. We can't do anything about highways or other conflicts with migratory corridors and winter ranges on people's lawns. This article talks about stockpiling wildlife like livestock.
It's just not relevant to a predator pit scenario like we have in much of the state. If anything more recent changes in forest practices, increased fire activity has improved a great deal of habitats and increased carrying capacity. We're a long ways from reaching carrying capacity and nursing does not having the fat to carry through a winter kill :chuckle:
The article from IDFG is irrelevant when habitat isn't a limiting factor.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 02:45:28 PM
Does it concern you that less hunters but also less success rates
Example:
2013:
Total # Hunters: 123,928
Total # deer harvested: 33,657
Percent: 27.2%
(Antlerless harvest) 6,209
2021:
Total # Hunters: 102,262
Total # deer harvested: 24,318
Percent: 24.0%
(Antlerless harvest) 2,653
Less hunters in tbeory, should yeild increased success rstes if the herds had remained the same. Instead were seeing both declining hunter #'s and lower success rates.
I’m not sure I agree with less hunters and higher success rates. It’s been proven time and time again that 10% of hunters kill 90% of the game. Most hunters don’t hunt hunt as hard and have far less success. They hunt for tradition and the social aspect. The percentages support my theory…..though only a theory. :dunno:
To follow your logic, that would mean the 10% most successful of hunters are the first to quit. That doesn't make since to me, the newbies and folks that get pissed cause they haven't tagged in 10 years are the ones who quit. If anything you've proven my point better than I did.
Post by: jrebel on October 22, 2022, 03:33:00 PM
Does it concern you that less hunters but also less success rates
Example:
2013:
Total # Hunters: 123,928
Total # deer harvested: 33,657
Percent: 27.2%
(Antlerless harvest) 6,209
2021:
Total # Hunters: 102,262
Total # deer harvested: 24,318
Percent: 24.0%
(Antlerless harvest) 2,653
Less hunters in tbeory, should yeild increased success rstes if the herds had remained the same. Instead were seeing both declining hunter #'s and lower success rates.
I’m not sure I agree with less hunters and higher success rates. It’s been proven time and time again that 10% of hunters kill 90% of the game. Most hunters don’t hunt hunt as hard and have far less success. They hunt for tradition and the social aspect. The percentages support my theory…..though only a theory. :dunno:
To follow your logic, that would mean the 10% most successful of hunters are the first to quit. That doesn't make since to me, the newbies and folks that get pissed cause they haven't tagged in 10 years are the ones who quit. If anything you've proven my point better than I did.
My logic is we are aging out older hunters and not recruiting new. I firmly believe that repeated success comes with experience. We lost 20% (approx.) of the hunters in the last 8 years and success and remained approx the same on a percentage stand point. We are aging out hunters, they are a dying breed....and we are not recruiting new hunters as quickly as we should. I suspect we would see the success percent stay relatively close to the same or drop a little if a bunch of brand new hunters jumped into the game.
I don't doubt our herds are declining....I just don't believe it as bad as some make out (statewide). The Entiat, Swakane and Methow have been hit the hardest....but if you look at the history of massive culls after fires and piss pore management, that explains why. I've hunted the palouse region and have great friends that live and farm the region. prior to last years blue tongue, they had some of the largest herds they had seen in a decade. The west side of the state has an abondance of blacktail compared to 20 years ago when all the roads were open and access was significantly easier (another debate for another day). Elk in the Taneum, Nanum were the best I had seen in many decades before WDFW gave way to many cow tags appox 8-10 years ago. Fact of the matter....this state is not in 100% doom and gloom scenario. We have fantastic hunting opportunity. Some areas, and most NE corners after blue tongue, need special attention....I get it. I suspect the areas bone takes pictures of mule deer are some of the worst his, thus his rant. Clearly there are still deer here otherwise there wouldn't be a 25% success rate for all deer hunters combined.
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 04:01:50 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 04:39:54 PM
-How many of us here got into hunting and remained interested in hunting due to doe hunting.
It’s been mentioned as recruitment for youngsters.
-how many hunters gave up, stopped hunting due to the lack of game to be able to hunt or cost or the hoops, etc. I see lots of frustrated folks on here, or many saying no more in this state. Obviously we can’t answer this, something to think about.
Post by: jrebel on October 22, 2022, 04:54:55 PM
Two questions in my head I’m pondering with some of the aforementioned points. …
-How many of us here got into hunting and remained interested in hunting due to doe hunting.
It’s been mentioned as recruitment for youngsters.
-how many hunters gave up, stopped hunting due to the lack of game to be able to hunt or cost or the hoops, etc. I see lots of frustrated folks on here, or many saying no more in this state. Obviously we can’t answer this, something to think about.
I’m not embarrassed to say me…..
I started hunting at the age of 8. My dad was an avid archery hunter so naturally I used archery gear. We were meat hunters so we didn’t pass a does, or cows for that matter. I killed deer every year up until I think 2018. My first buck was killed my first year in college. So from 8-20, I killed does in this state. Since, I have killed more bucks than does, but that’s because I filled the freezer with other game (sometimes from other states) and the meat was not needed. My son has killed one doe and otherwise has killed bucks. We have changed the tradition of meat hunting because our success in other states and different hunting traditions. With that said, I don’t have any regrets. I also would not begrudge or deli type any other hunter that legally harvested a doe. I do believe that youth benefit from having the option to shoot does. Not all have to, but the ones that do have an equally large smile that says….”I’m hooked”.
One of my most memorable hunts involved taking my wife’s grandparents out for their final hunt. They both shot whitetail does…..it was awesome to see their smiles for one last hunt.
I to see lots of people threatening to leave this state…..the next year they post pics of their hunt. Talk is cheap….and when people get frustrated they say things they don’t always mean.
Post by: jackelope on October 22, 2022, 04:55:57 PM
Two questions in my head I’m pondering with some of the aforementioned points. …
-How many of us here got into hunting and remained interested in hunting due to doe hunting.
It’s been mentioned as recruitment for youngsters.
-how many hunters gave up, stopped hunting due to the lack of game to be able to hunt or cost or the hoops, etc. I see lots of frustrated folks on here, or many saying no more in this state. Obviously we can’t answer this, something to think about.
Pretty sure I shot a whitetail doe as a kid or a younger hunter at least back home in upstate NY. Maybe 1. Definitely not more than 1. It was not an interest generator for me. It was an “I love venison” moment.
I’ve got no interest in shooting does anymore.
Post by: boneaddict on October 22, 2022, 05:01:25 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 22, 2022, 05:03:47 PM
All of us hunted with fathers, uncles, older brothers. Once we got into high school age and driving, we hunted with high school buddies (and still family too).
My son hunted with me, but his high school friends played xbox and did sports. He did not stay into hunting. None of his college buddies hunted at all.
I hope to rekindle that when he comes back from overseas.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 22, 2022, 06:47:53 PM
2 years later I killed my 1st deer, a doe. I was hooked from that moment on. I have killed a deer in WA state every year since, mostly bucks, but 10-12 does too.
To those who say does are not a true "hunt" So you must feel that human woman are inferior too? :bash:
I have killed 50-52 deer in Wa state, and of all those, the most memorable one was a doe that I killed in Swakane during an archery hunt. Spotting, plotting, sneaking, waiting, positioning, shooting.......yep it was hunting, just didnt have protruding bone on its head.
Post by: metlhead on October 22, 2022, 07:17:10 PM
Post by: Alchase on October 22, 2022, 07:20:10 PM
To those who say does are not a true "hunt" So you must feel that human woman are inferior too? :bash:
If you take into context where and how you are hunting, yes I can see how a doe could be a decent hunt. :tup:
I hunted the Methow for 30+ years until 2015. I had does walk into my tent. Walk up to me while I was smoking a cigarette. walk through camp while sitting at the campfire listening to book on CD. Not once can ever remember a year, where I could not have taken a doe there with very little effort, and most times within a couple hundred feet of camp.
That is not a hunt to me, that is getting groceries, :chuckle:
Post by: Surfr716 on October 23, 2022, 01:10:39 AM
as for the ethical dilemma with regards to shooting slickheads it doesnt exist in my mind, your milage may vary.
Post by: jackelope on October 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PM
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.
Post by: Mudman on October 23, 2022, 03:13:35 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 03:33:31 PM
Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.
According to KF they do, Heck prolly cover 40-50 over a 50 mile range. (insert sarcasm emoji)
Post by: KFhunter on October 23, 2022, 04:45:37 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 23, 2022, 04:50:17 PM
Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.
*if* habitat were a factor they'd be robbing the producing does of prime feed, and need culled.
But hunters can't tell the difference on doe hunts, and habitat ain't a limitating factor in most areas.
Barren does are often dominant and lead migrations and movements, they're an extra set of eyes for predators.
Post by: boneaddict on October 23, 2022, 05:02:38 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 23, 2022, 06:25:50 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:40:41 PM
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.
Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?
How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?
What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?
What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?
I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them. My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.
It's maff man :chuckle:
Ok
start with 1000 doe in an area and 200 bucks, a 5:1 ratio before hunting season
a whopping 180 bucks get shot! Now we got 1000 does and 20 bucks wow, 80:1 ratio not good!
add in natural mortality, make it 10% for easy maff, it doesn't matter what the real % is because more does will die than bucks in a pretty static ratio.
Now we got 800 does and *gasp* 18 bucks! 90:1 ratio!
now it's birthing season, 800 does drop a 50/50 mix of does and bucks, how many does did or didn't get bred doesn't matter, they'll have a close to 50/50 mix of sexes
now add in fawn recruitment, it doesn't matter for sex ratio what the recruitment is because buck and doe fawn will die in equal ratio's. There's no difference to a predator or other all cause mortality. 800 does put out 200 new does and 200 new bucks in a very high 50% mortality rate.
Now we got 1000 does again and 218 bucks
The ratio has improved from 5:1 to 4 something to 1
sex ratios are self correcting, it has nothing to do with herd decline or growth, the buck doe ratio can't really ever get more than about 5:1
This self correction happens year over year
If you want more deer, don't kill the baby makers.
If you want less deer, let the predators kill more fawns, and hunt does
800/8 = 44.444444
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:41:12 PM
Fawns are tough to see in fields, I know as I've run em over with haying equipment. I hope your not looking at does in tbe fields during summer months and tbinking their barren :dunno:
All tbe does get covered by bucks, when the buck to doe ratio is way akimbo does and cows might get a 2nd estrus, the problem with this is it spreads out the fawn or calf drop, which in turns lengthens the vulnerable duration and ends up with more eaten by predators, there is safty in numbers
Also, older prime bucks and bulls are far more efficient at breeding, their fawn and calves survive better cause they drop together, so this lends a sound argument for 4 pt min restrictions.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:42:06 PM
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does
So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does.
Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:49:14 PM
I don't know either, but he mocked me with 50 so I assumed whitetail, otherwise why mock me :dunno:
WOW!
Does the above refresh your memory??
Yes, LITTERALLY you did not say it, I apologize, but geez you basically said it multiple times :bash:
I would suggest as a mod, you should be able to understand (insert sarcasm emoji here) and also be able to not get your panties in a bunch over an opposing view.
And we all wonder why folks are posting less and less (especially pics) :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:51:48 PM
Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.
*if* habitat were a factor they'd be robbing the producing does of prime feed, and need culled.
But hunters can't tell the difference on doe hunts, and habitat ain't a limitating factor in most areas.
Barren does are often dominant and lead migrations and movements, they're an extra set of eyes for predators.
DONT PUT WORDS IN OTHER HUNTERS MOUTHS.
Pot meet Kettle (Literally)
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 23, 2022, 06:54:56 PM
Post by: broadhead on October 23, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
In fact I've just been doing the out of state whitetails thing lately. I have some decent ground to turn there where it's free, private property and decent odds.
If it was my kid I'd apply for it if she wanted. But other than that I think they're better left alone for the time being and going after whitetails instead. Lotsa opportunities there.
Out west there are deer and it's OK to shoot does imho. But they aren't muleys. And of course situation dictates. Especially those San Juan Islands. Plenty o does to take. Just have to do the leg work and all.
Post by: jrebel on October 23, 2022, 07:30:37 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 23, 2022, 07:37:13 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on October 23, 2022, 07:38:52 PM
This is why we have no deer......a few does dying to hunters pales in comparison to the number these guys kill. :bash: :bash: :bash:This is a huge reason for lack of deer.
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 23, 2022, 07:45:25 PM
This is why we have no deer......a few does dying to hunters pales in comparison to the number these guys kill. :bash: :bash: :bash:
This comment is about the cougar pics above
Should focus on killing more of those baby makers and a few more bears instead of 40#’s off of a mule deer doe
Just my :twocents: :twocents:
Post by: browney5er on October 23, 2022, 08:09:04 PM
At 7 years old I was on my first "hunt" with my Dad and Brother. Dad killed a doe and I was crying and afraid to look at it (blood yuk) :chuckle:
2 years later I killed my 1st deer, a doe. I was hooked from that moment on. I have killed a deer in WA state every year since, mostly bucks, but 10-12 does too.
To those who say does are not a true "hunt" So you must feel that human woman are inferior too? :bash:
I have killed 50-52 deer in Wa state, and of all those, the most memorable one was a doe that I killed in Swakane during an archery hunt. Spotting, plotting, sneaking, waiting, positioning, shooting.......yep it was hunting, just didnt have protruding bone on its head.
Wow 40 Bucks in 48 years is damn good success rate. Better than 80%
Post by: Bob33 on October 23, 2022, 08:22:22 PM
This is why we have no deer......a few does dying to hunters pales in comparison to the number these guys kill. :bash: :bash: :bash:The cougars in that first photo alone probably kill 100 or more deer each year.
Post by: jrebel on October 23, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
This is why we have no deer......a few does dying to hunters pales in comparison to the number these guys kill. :bash: :bash: :bash:The cougars in that first photo alone probably kill 100 or more deer each year.
I pulled trail cams today and have a minimum of 7 cats and maybe as many as 10 different cats on cameras in the last 45 days. Lets assume 7 cats at 40 deer per year per cat......280 deer dead and that is likely a conservative estimate. This doesn't account for the 20+ bears I get on camera each year (same are / same cameras). :bash: :bash:
Post by: jrebel on October 23, 2022, 08:29:02 PM
This is why we have no deer......a few does dying to hunters pales in comparison to the number these guys kill. :bash: :bash: :bash:
This comment is about the cougar pics above
Should focus on killing more of those baby makers and a few more bears instead of 40#’s off of a mule deer doe
Just my :twocents: :twocents:
If it only it was that easy......but yes I agree, we need to kill more of the cats and bears. One of these days I will get proficient at killing cats......just need to keep at it.
Post by: duckmen1 on October 23, 2022, 08:32:00 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 23, 2022, 09:25:58 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 23, 2022, 09:40:31 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 23, 2022, 09:48:33 PM
Anyone know how many doe tags they gave out this year in the Methow units?Anyone know how many they have given out in the past while this herd was spiraling?
Sorry jackelope,the Methow is a mess right now, I know game guys, DNR/game guys and even a few FS guys. This herd is in the worst shape I’ve ever seen. We were basically bear hunting , (I said I would start killing predators 👍), we did. I don’t know how many doe permits were issued in the Methow but 1 would have been to many.
At one point my boy and I were in a particular spot in the north valley that we used to love to role bed roles on the ground and look at stars and BS, this year, all we heard was wolves.
I sat down around a fire with a couple this last week, they also agree. No names, no positions, no jobs mentioned.
Post by: bigmacc on October 23, 2022, 11:23:48 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 24, 2022, 05:26:16 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 24, 2022, 05:42:05 AM