Post by: Humptulips on March 14, 2023, 09:43:08 PM
Year round hunting and trapping of cougar.
https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/hbillenr/HB0469.pdf
Post by: bearpaw on March 15, 2023, 04:28:42 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 15, 2023, 07:43:09 AM
Post by: Houndhunter on March 15, 2023, 08:04:59 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 15, 2023, 08:06:55 AM
It's wierd they do this but stop the lion hunters in San Juan, book cliffs, and la sal in the spring unless you drew a spring bear tag. I hunt the Utah Colorado border a bunch but at the end of this month my Utah pursuit tag is no good. Only way I can hunt my hounds close to home after March is guiding a client with a bear tag in his pocket.
Are you sure it's still that way if the governor signs this bill?
Post by: elkboy on March 15, 2023, 08:09:42 AM
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/utah-bill-unlimited-mountain-lion-hunting/
Post by: Houndhunter on March 15, 2023, 08:12:32 AM
It's wierd they do this but stop the lion hunters in San Juan, book cliffs, and la sal in the spring unless you drew a spring bear tag. I hunt the Utah Colorado border a bunch but at the end of this month my Utah pursuit tag is no good. Only way I can hunt my hounds close to home after March is guiding a client with a bear tag in his pocket.
Are you sure it's still that way if the governor signs this bill?
What I've heard from other houndsman it won't for those units, but to be honest I'm not 100% on that as I personally have not looked into the bill yet.
Post by: bearpaw on March 15, 2023, 08:16:22 AM
Appears to be some controversy over the measure:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/utah-bill-unlimited-mountain-lion-hunting/
Lots of controversy, ranchers want it, lots of deer and elk hunters want it, hound hunters are mostly adamantly opposed, anti-hunters opposed, DWR probably doesn't like it, will be interesting to see if the governor signs it!
Post by: Houndhunter on March 15, 2023, 08:19:28 AM
Appears to be some controversy over the measure:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/utah-bill-unlimited-mountain-lion-hunting/
Lots of controversy, ranchers want it, lots of deer and elk hunters want it, hound hunters are mostly adamantly opposed, anti-hunters opposed, DWR probably doesn't like it, will be interesting to see if the governor signs it!
I'd like to see a year round pursuit season but limit the harvest season :twocents:.
Post by: hunter399 on March 15, 2023, 08:19:50 AM
I'd buy my trappers licences today if they allowed it.
I have my certificate or whatever.
I'd buy today if cougar was on the table.
Post by: elkboy on March 15, 2023, 08:32:49 AM
Appears to be some controversy over the measure:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/utah-bill-unlimited-mountain-lion-hunting/
Lots of controversy, ranchers want it, lots of deer and elk hunters want it, hound hunters are mostly adamantly opposed, anti-hunters opposed, DWR probably doesn't like it, will be interesting to see if the governor signs it!
Thanks for the insight, Bearpaw. What's your take? Doesn't your company guide for deer, elk, and cougar down there?
I have no dog in the fight; I guess my reaction is that I have the same issue with this as with Prop 117 in CA back in the 90s, which did the opposite (make cougar a "specially protected species"). It's wildlife management via legislation, instead of letting the state wildlife agency do its job. They didn't even consult UDWR, from what the article was saying.
Post by: bearpaw on March 16, 2023, 02:00:13 PM
Appears to be some controversy over the measure:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/utah-bill-unlimited-mountain-lion-hunting/
Lots of controversy, ranchers want it, lots of deer and elk hunters want it, hound hunters are mostly adamantly opposed, anti-hunters opposed, DWR probably doesn't like it, will be interesting to see if the governor signs it!
Thanks for the insight, Bearpaw. What's your take? Doesn't your company guide for deer, elk, and cougar down there?
I have no dog in the fight; I guess my reaction is that I have the same issue with this as with Prop 117 in CA back in the 90s, which did the opposite (make cougar a "specially protected species"). It's wildlife management via legislation, instead of letting the state wildlife agency do its job. They didn't even consult UDWR, from what the article was saying.
Currently we are only doing lion hunts in Idaho. The hound hunters I know in Utah are opposed, but there could be some I don't know in favor, but I think that's unlikely.
I think it's possible some in DWR knew this was coming but didn't want to publicly support, not saying that's the case but it's certainly possible. Ranchers and deer/elk hunters both have strong lobbies in Utah, they both benefit if lion harvest increases, maybe that's all there is to the story?
If the governor signs the legislation into law I will suspect DWR didn't offer too much opposition.
My personal viewpoint, I like to see balanced management over the long term.
IMO, politics and game management is very different in every state, in some states legislation is used far more often than in other states. The result of legislative wildlife management varies greatly in each state too, but so does the wildlife agency management decisions.
There's very different results depending on who's in power, no matter if its the legislature or the state wildlife agency, just as we can see in Washington, wildlife management by the agency may not even follow science and may be all about politics too!
Post by: KFhunter on March 16, 2023, 02:05:45 PM
Post by: Special T on March 16, 2023, 03:57:29 PM
We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
Post by: idaho guy on March 16, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
In Washington, It seems like forming a group (something like the foundation for wildlife management )that would pay (reimbursement) the tribes to harvest predators is the perfect solution. Be an easy answer to bring back a little predator/ prey balance and the pro predator groups wouldn’t say a word for fear of appearing “ politicaly incorrect “ 😂. I’ve never hunted Utah but seems like the legislature making game management decisions is never good. Declaring war on lions also seems stupid. I think you can bring lion populations down pretty quick if you don’t regulate the harvest. Why wipe out all the cougars in Utah? It’s like 2 extremes of mismanagement. Washington won’t manage lions and Utah wants to kill them All. Weird
Post by: KFhunter on March 16, 2023, 10:42:21 PM
Wipe a bunch out, ungulates rebound, control lion rebound by restricting a little bit here and there
Honestly I think you could have no limits at all and it would be very tough to seriously depress lion numbers
At least in WA, access being a key hurdle to keeping health lion numbers up regardless of rules
Post by: Special T on March 16, 2023, 10:44:40 PM
We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
In Washington, It seems like forming a group (something like the foundation for wildlife management )that would pay (reimbursement) the tribes to harvest predators is the perfect solution. Be an easy answer to bring back a little predator/ prey balance and the pro predator groups wouldn’t say a word for fear of appearing “ politicaly incorrect “ 😂. I’ve never hunted Utah but seems like the legislature making game management decisions is never good. Declaring war on lions also seems stupid. I think you can bring lion populations down pretty quick if you don’t regulate the harvest. Why wipe out all the cougars in Utah? It’s like 2 extremes of mismanagement. Washington won’t manage lions and Utah wants to kill them All. Weird
I think something along this line would break the back of anti hunters. They are scared of tribes in a big way, mostly because it would circumvent state politics and controls. The down side is that Sportsmen generally have a beef with some tribes. Sadly it is just a few tribal members that makes Sportsmen dislike Indians. I personally think Sportsmen have a hard choice ahead of us. Side with tribes, consumptive users that we philosophically agree with. The downside is we have to swallow some pride because some tribal members have the right... but make the whole tribe look bad... yet the reason why some of us hold disdain makes them a powerful alley. An alley DoW HSUS and others cannot beat. I personally think Sportsmen have to make a deal they generally are unlikely to make... to save our heritage and tribal at the same time. Probably a bitter pill for some to swallow especially fisherman. Considering the WDFW Comission we have we are likely to get screwed on hunting and fishing so what do we have to loose?
Post by: Humptulips on March 16, 2023, 11:25:59 PM
I have not made a secret of my wish for a trapping season for cougar. The Department has been opposed. Heck, the first few times I mentioned how it could be done they looked at me like I had spit on their shoe. Of course, now, there is no way you could get that by the Commission. Still, I don't think it hurts to talk about it and dream about a better future Commission. One of the big problems has always been nobody else is doing it. DFW doesn't want to be the first. Texas is the only place you can trap them. NM for a couple years but now I don't think so. Wyoming talked about it but no go. If a couple States would do it, it would be an easier sell.We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
Same with bears, Maine is the only place you can trap bear. I would love to make a few bear sets.
Problem I think with the tribes at least on the west side Is I think cultural. Very few trappers or hound hunters spring from families with no trappers or hound men. It's not traditional so tough to get the spark started.
Post by: Special T on March 16, 2023, 11:31:27 PM
I have not made a secret of my wish for a trapping season for cougar. The Department has been opposed. Heck, the first few times I mentioned how it could be done they looked at me like I had spit on their shoe. Of course, now, there is no way you could get that by the Commission. Still, I don't think it hurts to talk about it and dream about a better future Commission. One of the big problems has always been nobody else is doing it. DFW doesn't want to be the first. Texas is the only place you can trap them. NM for a couple years but now I don't think so. Wyoming talked about it but no go. If a couple States would do it, it would be an easier sell.We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
Same with bears, Maine is the only place you can trap bear. I would love to make a few bear sets.
Problem I think with the tribes at least on the west side Is I think cultural. Very few trappers or hound hunters spring from families with no trappers or hound men. It's not traditional so tough to get the spark started.
As much as I would like you and me to be able to trap cats... The only way to break the backs of anti hunting groups are to promote this to tribes. I would forgo all cat harvest if it meant that Peta and that crowd had to fight the tribes... a fight they could not win!
Post by: Humptulips on March 16, 2023, 11:36:05 PM
I don't disagree with that. I do think it will be tough to raise much interest from at least the west side tribes.I have not made a secret of my wish for a trapping season for cougar. The Department has been opposed. Heck, the first few times I mentioned how it could be done they looked at me like I had spit on their shoe. Of course, now, there is no way you could get that by the Commission. Still, I don't think it hurts to talk about it and dream about a better future Commission. One of the big problems has always been nobody else is doing it. DFW doesn't want to be the first. Texas is the only place you can trap them. NM for a couple years but now I don't think so. Wyoming talked about it but no go. If a couple States would do it, it would be an easier sell.We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
Same with bears, Maine is the only place you can trap bear. I would love to make a few bear sets.
Problem I think with the tribes at least on the west side Is I think cultural. Very few trappers or hound hunters spring from families with no trappers or hound men. It's not traditional so tough to get the spark started.
As much as I would like you and me to be able to trap cats... The only way to break the backs of anti hunting groups are to promote this to tribes. I would forgo all cat harvest if it meant that Peta and that crowd had to fight the tribes... a fight they could not win!
Post by: Special T on March 16, 2023, 11:43:06 PM
Well I would like to give it a try... even if West side tribes didnt do much it would crush a narrative.I don't disagree with that. I do think it will be tough to raise much interest from at least the west side tribes.I have not made a secret of my wish for a trapping season for cougar. The Department has been opposed. Heck, the first few times I mentioned how it could be done they looked at me like I had spit on their shoe. Of course, now, there is no way you could get that by the Commission. Still, I don't think it hurts to talk about it and dream about a better future Commission. One of the big problems has always been nobody else is doing it. DFW doesn't want to be the first. Texas is the only place you can trap them. NM for a couple years but now I don't think so. Wyoming talked about it but no go. If a couple States would do it, it would be an easier sell.We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
Same with bears, Maine is the only place you can trap bear. I would love to make a few bear sets.
Problem I think with the tribes at least on the west side Is I think cultural. Very few trappers or hound hunters spring from families with no trappers or hound men. It's not traditional so tough to get the spark started.
As much as I would like you and me to be able to trap cats... The only way to break the backs of anti hunting groups are to promote this to tribes. I would forgo all cat harvest if it meant that Peta and that crowd had to fight the tribes... a fight they could not win!
Post by: KFhunter on March 17, 2023, 08:47:27 AM
F4WM isn’t interested, they got enough with Idaho and MT, they’ve already declined
Only way is to start another with a similar model
Post by: JakeLand on March 17, 2023, 09:48:38 AM
Post by: idaho guy on March 17, 2023, 05:43:50 PM
We need this in WA at least until we see a rebound in herds, then reaccess
First off it could be done on the west side with cage traps. We never meet the insainly low harvest quoatas currently, and I could do a bunch of neighbors a favor by trapping them around homes where they should not be anyway. The quickest way to solve this problem is go around the state politics by raising funds to reimburse/pay tribal members to focus on cats. They could do it with hounds or traps.
In Washington, It seems like forming a group (something like the foundation for wildlife management )that would pay (reimbursement) the tribes to harvest predators is the perfect solution. Be an easy answer to bring back a little predator/ prey balance and the pro predator groups wouldn’t say a word for fear of appearing “ politicaly incorrect “ 😂. I’ve never hunted Utah but seems like the legislature making game management decisions is never good. Declaring war on lions also seems stupid. I think you can bring lion populations down pretty quick if you don’t regulate the harvest. Why wipe out all the cougars in Utah? It’s like 2 extremes of mismanagement. Washington won’t manage lions and Utah wants to kill them All. Weird
I think something along this line would break the back of anti hunters. They are scared of tribes in a big way, mostly because it would circumvent state politics and controls. The down side is that Sportsmen generally have a beef with some tribes. Sadly it is just a few tribal members that makes Sportsmen dislike Indians. I personally think Sportsmen have a hard choice ahead of us. Side with tribes, consumptive users that we philosophically agree with. The downside is we have to swallow some pride because some tribal members have the right... but make the whole tribe look bad... yet the reason why some of us hold disdain makes them a powerful alley. An alley DoW HSUS and others cannot beat. I personally think Sportsmen have to make a deal they generally are unlikely to make... to save our heritage and tribal at the same time. Probably a bitter pill for some to swallow especially fisherman. Considering the WDFW Comission we have we are likely to get screwed on hunting and fishing so what do we have to loose?
It really does seem like the perfect solution. Bonus is watching the anti groups squirm when they can’t go against the tribes. They would be non inclusive racist if they did lol. I say go for it. Form a new group along the lines of f4wm. You just need a small group of hardcore hunting tribal members. I Would donate and I have never hunted big game in Washington
Post by: bearpaw on March 17, 2023, 07:16:02 PM
https://www.abc4.com/news/politics/gov-cox-signs-bill-allowing-yearlong-cougar-hunting/
Post by: Humptulips on March 17, 2023, 09:13:52 PM
But aren’t cougar listed as a big game animal? Which would mean having to change their category listingThe Commission could give cougar dual classification as big game and furbearer. Raccoon and bobcat have dual classification so there is precedent. Not happening with this Commission though.
Tribes are not bound by any of that though.
Post by: bugs n bones on March 18, 2023, 07:02:05 AM
Post by: hunter399 on March 18, 2023, 07:23:57 AM
Tribes are not bound by any state law.
If they wanted to trap cougar ,they technically can.
And could of done it already if they wish too.
The Commission is not gonna do anything.
Our governor wouldn't even raise quotas a few years ago.
Let alone allow trapping.
Post by: JakeLand on March 18, 2023, 07:44:30 AM
Just to add.a couple tribal guys that trap over in the northeast corner of Washington trap with snares and legholds for wolves and bobcats caught a pretty big cougar in a snare !!!they have a YouTube channel and showed it all
Tribes are not bound by any state law.
If they wanted to trap cougar ,they technically can.
And could of done it already if they wish too.
The Commission is not gonna do anything.
Our governor wouldn't even raise quotas a few years ago.
Let alone allow trapping.
Post by: hunter399 on March 18, 2023, 07:57:05 AM
That's what I'm saying.Just to add.a couple tribal guys that trap over in the northeast corner of Washington trap with snares and legholds for wolves and bobcats caught a pretty big cougar in a snare !!!they have a YouTube channel and showed it all
Tribes are not bound by any state law.
If they wanted to trap cougar ,they technically can.
And could of done it already if they wish too.
The Commission is not gonna do anything.
Our governor wouldn't even raise quotas a few years ago.
Let alone allow trapping.
They already can trap cougar.
Use any trap they want.
State laws don't apply.
Especially for fishing,hunting,or trapping.
Post by: hunter399 on March 18, 2023, 08:02:40 AM
The tribes would destroy the antis ! This is a great ideaTribes don't have to destroy the antis.
They already have the right to fish,hunt,trap anytime they want.
Post by: idaho guy on March 18, 2023, 07:41:18 PM
The tribes would destroy the antis ! This is a great ideaTribes don't have to destroy the antis.
They already have the right to fish,hunt,trap anytime they want.
Doesn’t matter that they don’t need to. The point is they CAN destroy them. They just need some incentives. It would be smart if non tribal hunters figured out how to provide the incentives. Mimic the f4wm model. If they can hunt elk in the blues at will they can hound hunt and trap cougars there at will also.