Post by: MADMAX on August 10, 2023, 09:10:25 PM
Post by: pickardjw on August 10, 2023, 10:35:46 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 10, 2023, 11:52:45 PM
The truck came with a charger. He didn’t have to spend a bunch of money upgrading chargers. Why would he pay big money to install a charger where he works? That doesn’t make any sense. He chose to do this. Didn’t have to.
You’re only supposed to charge them to 90%.
Ford has an app with all the charging stations. You can map out trips ahead of time so there aren’t any surprises. It’s incredibly easy to do.
All of his “surprises” are totally 100% normal except for maybe an inoperative charging station but I talk to multiple people per day and I’ve never heard of a charger that didn’t work.
The 6 months in the body shop had something to do with the truck being electric? Or was it there because of also well known supply chain issues that have nothing to do with the lightning?
Post by: jackelope on August 10, 2023, 11:58:30 PM
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
Post by: ducks4days on August 11, 2023, 06:34:30 AM
The truck owner is an idiot.
The truck came with a charger. He didn’t have to spend a bunch of money upgrading chargers. Why would he pay big money to install a charger where he works? That doesn’t make any sense. He chose to do this. Didn’t have to.
You’re only supposed to charge them to 90%.
Ford has an app with all the charging stations. You can map out trips ahead of time so there aren’t any surprises. It’s incredibly easy to do.
All of his “surprises” are totally 100% normal except for maybe an inoperative charging station but I talk to multiple people per day and I’ve never heard of a charger that didn’t work.
The 6 months in the body shop had something to do with the truck being electric? Or was it there because of also well known supply chain issues that have nothing to do with the lightning?
100% spot on.
The energy density of gas / diesel combined with wide availability of gas stations has idiot proofed a lot of the planning that should go into traveling. Somehow even with that people still run out of gas. I wonder how many times this dude got stranded before he wasted his money on a truck with less range and fewer charging options.
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2023, 07:28:30 AM
Post by: pickardjw on August 11, 2023, 08:05:35 AM
Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
I bet it was $115,000 CAD, so closer to $85,000 USD. Still way more than I'd pay for a half ton.
Post by: MeepDog on August 11, 2023, 08:12:26 AM
I just got scammed by Toyota. I have a 42' 5th wheel toy hauler that I can put my Jeep Wrangler in the back of and I bought a 2023 Toyota Tacoma to haul it with because I didn't do any research and don't know what it will tow but it's a sweet truck and it's blue so I thought it would tow it. First I couldn't get the Uhaul guys to install a 5th wheel hitch in it. Finally got the guys at Walmart to install one. First time I hooked my trailer up to it, the bumper hit the ground instantly. Then I tried to tow it to the gas station so I could fill the truck up with gas and the frikkin thing wouldn't even move. What a scam. I can't even put gas in this piece of crap. What the heck, Toyota!!! Why are you selling these piles of junk!! They can't even tow anything!!:chuckle: it cracks me up that a $5k truck off Craigslist can tow better than their $50k Toyota. But thank God it has crawl control
Post by: Angry Perch on August 11, 2023, 08:34:32 AM
I just got scammed by Toyota. I have a 42' 5th wheel toy hauler that I can put my Jeep Wrangler in the back of and I bought a 2023 Toyota Tacoma to haul it with because I didn't do any research and don't know what it will tow but it's a sweet truck and it's blue so I thought it would tow it. First I couldn't get the Uhaul guys to install a 5th wheel hitch in it. Finally got the guys at Walmart to install one. First time I hooked my trailer up to it, the bumper hit the ground instantly. Then I tried to tow it to the gas station so I could fill the truck up with gas and the frikkin thing wouldn't even move. What a scam. I can't even put gas in this piece of crap. What the heck, Toyota!!! Why are you selling these piles of junk!! They can't even tow anything!!
Not to mention the frames fall off!
Post by: Woodchuck on August 11, 2023, 08:36:35 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle:I just got scammed by Toyota. I have a 42' 5th wheel toy hauler that I can put my Jeep Wrangler in the back of and I bought a 2023 Toyota Tacoma to haul it with because I didn't do any research and don't know what it will tow but it's a sweet truck and it's blue so I thought it would tow it. First I couldn't get the Uhaul guys to install a 5th wheel hitch in it. Finally got the guys at Walmart to install one. First time I hooked my trailer up to it, the bumper hit the ground instantly. Then I tried to tow it to the gas station so I could fill the truck up with gas and the frikkin thing wouldn't even move. What a scam. I can't even put gas in this piece of crap. What the heck, Toyota!!! Why are you selling these piles of junk!! They can't even tow anything!!
Not to mention the frames fall off!
Post by: Dan-o on August 11, 2023, 08:57:48 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle:I just got scammed by Toyota. I have a 42' 5th wheel toy hauler that I can put my Jeep Wrangler in the back of and I bought a 2023 Toyota Tacoma to haul it with because I didn't do any research and don't know what it will tow but it's a sweet truck and it's blue so I thought it would tow it. First I couldn't get the Uhaul guys to install a 5th wheel hitch in it. Finally got the guys at Walmart to install one. First time I hooked my trailer up to it, the bumper hit the ground instantly. Then I tried to tow it to the gas station so I could fill the truck up with gas and the frikkin thing wouldn't even move. What a scam. I can't even put gas in this piece of crap. What the heck, Toyota!!! Why are you selling these piles of junk!! They can't even tow anything!!
Not to mention the frames fall off!
Coming to this thread in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
Post by: Alchase on August 11, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle:I just got scammed by Toyota. I have a 42' 5th wheel toy hauler that I can put my Jeep Wrangler in the back of and I bought a 2023 Toyota Tacoma to haul it with because I didn't do any research and don't know what it will tow but it's a sweet truck and it's blue so I thought it would tow it. First I couldn't get the Uhaul guys to install a 5th wheel hitch in it. Finally got the guys at Walmart to install one. First time I hooked my trailer up to it, the bumper hit the ground instantly. Then I tried to tow it to the gas station so I could fill the truck up with gas and the frikkin thing wouldn't even move. What a scam. I can't even put gas in this piece of crap. What the heck, Toyota!!! Why are you selling these piles of junk!! They can't even tow anything!!
Not to mention the frames fall off!
Coming to this thread in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
But their headlights on high beam, make great search lights after their rear leafs flatten out from the weight of a couple 35" tires. :o
:chuckle:
Post by: timberfaller on August 11, 2023, 09:55:19 AM
Whats the ole saying? Figures don't lie, but liars figure!!
type in EV nightmare into a search, lots to read! Of course the libs and LSM don't know math either!
Post by: GOcougsHunter on August 11, 2023, 10:31:23 AM
Post by: Igor on August 11, 2023, 10:36:29 AM
Reading through the complaints over the years on EVs reminds me of what would have been discussed 100 years ago with the transition from horses to gas powered vehicles. I am sure that there were discussions that "those worthless gas cars can't even clear a downed tree in the path... my horse can simply step over the log. you can only go 80 miles... where my horse can go for hundreds... cost of maintaining a car is more than a horse... gas station infrastructure is lame here in 1923.. yaddah yaddah." As a shade tree mechanic who struggles with finding the correct trouble code to diagnose some ridiculous faulty sensor to get my gas powered truck running.... I am looking forward to less complication in my vehicle. And the one thing EV trucks have that I am really looking forward to is the comical amount of torque an electric motor produces. Take a ride in a Rivian some day and you will clearly see that Electric Trucks will be far superior to overly complicated gas engines. EV truck technology is not there yet and I have no plans to get one until I can tow my boat or trailer across the state without having to stop every 100 miles to recharge. I am a patient man and will wait for the technology to evolve. It took 100 years to go from a Model T to a modern F350. Current EVs aren't a magic bullet but, humans are very creative... we will figure it out.
If it will be 100 years before I can pull my 28' camp trailer over the North Cascades Highway with an electric truck, well.....................
Post by: timberfaller on August 11, 2023, 10:49:42 AM
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
Post by: GOcougsHunter on August 11, 2023, 10:59:06 AM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.I couldn't agree more. The sheer stupidity of the ultra green movement drowns out real discussions on how to logically and effectively move technology forward. The ultra green movement isn't patient nor pragmatic. They get lost in their own myopic sound chamber and screw up true innovation and providing real solutions to what the future requires. Innovation doesn't have to be tied to Wind or Solar, humans can and will figure all of this out eventually... we are actually pretty creative when we can get out of our own way.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
Post by: ducks4days on August 11, 2023, 11:00:40 AM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
Not to mention all of the cadmium mining equipment is still running on diesel. Seems like we should go green at the source first but that would involve politicians having more than 2 braincells to rub together.
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2023, 11:45:59 AM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
I think I seen somewhere that America was like number 26 in the world when it comes to MATH.
Whats the ole saying? Figures don't lie, but liars figure!!
type in EV nightmare into a search, lots to read! Of course the libs and LSM don't know math either!
Seems like there is more to your dislike than just the going green but destroying the earth part.
Post by: 2MANY on August 11, 2023, 12:12:27 PM
They are tired of others shoving things down their throats that they don't want or agree with.
VOTE!!!
Post by: baldopepper on August 11, 2023, 03:22:52 PM
Post by: gaddy on August 11, 2023, 03:25:05 PM
Post by: Caseyd on August 11, 2023, 03:55:46 PM
Post by: MADMAX on August 11, 2023, 05:54:44 PM
Figure out the lithium battery BS and disposal
And 70-90 K is too much for any truck IMO
Especially one that you need a backup vehicle for
Might as well get a bicycle
Post by: jackelope on August 11, 2023, 07:33:45 PM
Reading through the complaints over the years on EVs reminds me of what would have been discussed 100 years ago with the transition from horses to gas powered vehicles. I am sure that there were discussions that "those worthless gas cars can't even clear a downed tree in the path... my horse can simply step over the log. you can only go 80 miles... where my horse can go for hundreds... cost of maintaining a car is more than a horse... gas station infrastructure is lame here in 1923.. yaddah yaddah." As a shade tree mechanic who struggles with finding the correct trouble code to diagnose some ridiculous faulty sensor to get my gas powered truck running.... I am looking forward to less complication in my vehicle. And the one thing EV trucks have that I am really looking forward to is the comical amount of torque an electric motor produces. Take a ride in a Rivian some day and you will clearly see that Electric Trucks will be far superior to overly complicated gas engines. EV truck technology is not there yet and I have no plans to get one until I can tow my boat or trailer across the state without having to stop every 100 miles to recharge. I am a patient man and will wait for the technology to evolve. It took 100 years to go from a Model T to a modern F350. Current EVs aren't a magic bullet but, humans are very creative... we will figure it out.
Might as well be a communist country.
https://youtube.com/shorts/E0X0wUiJCBE?feature=share
Post by: highcountry_hunter on August 12, 2023, 05:38:17 AM
Then there’s also the cobalt mining to make all the lithium batteries, but that runs on legit human slave labor. Men, women and children in the Congo mining with pick axes for $1/day.The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
Not to mention all of the cadmium mining equipment is still running on diesel. Seems like we should go green at the source first but that would involve politicians having more than 2 braincells to rub together.
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Post by: CP on August 12, 2023, 07:45:17 AM
Many charging stations are vandalized, the cords are stolen for scrap copper, or they just are not maintained.
So, plan on charging at home. And yeah, charging takes a while, so take a nap or something. And if your round trip exceeds your range, drive something else. So, if you can’t make it to your cabin on a charge, you have the wrong vehicle.
But these are just tools, and like all tools, you need the right one for the right job. It’s not your screwdriver’s fault that it doesn’t drive nails very well.
Post by: CP on August 12, 2023, 08:02:15 AM
You’re only supposed to charge them to 90%.
So, you pay for and haul around 10% more battery than you are supposed to use? Sounds like a waste of money.
Do they put in little firmware "features" that prevent fully charging the battery?
Post by: jackelope on August 12, 2023, 08:06:40 AM
You’re only supposed to charge them to 90%.
So, you pay for and haul around 10% more battery than you are supposed to use? Sounds like a waste of money.
Do they put in little firmware "features" that prevent fully charging the battery?
https://www.eigen.energy/articles/extending-ev-battery-life
I’m not an engineer and don’t pretend to know what I’m talking about with EV’s. I’m fairly sure that with the Fordpass app and a Ford vehicle you can preset the level of charge you want.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on August 12, 2023, 08:45:20 AM
Like Jackelope said, you can set the charge level in the Ford app so it stops charging at 90%. There’s a fella on the Mach-E forums who charges to 100 every single day and has something like 60k on his car already with no battery degradation to note.
Post by: CP on August 12, 2023, 09:09:17 AM
Like Jackelope said, you can set the charge level in the Ford app so it stops charging at 90%.
That’s a nice feature, my E-moto just charges to 100% or until it’s unplugged. It’s a relatively simple machine.
I know Zero motorcycles starting limiting the charge level (and hence capacity) of their batteries but offered a 10% to 20% “upgrade” if you pay $$ for a firmware code that unlocks all the battery that you already paid for and have to haul around with you. I believe Tesla did something similar. Hopefully customer revolt has, or will, put an end to such nonsense.
Post by: wolfbait on August 12, 2023, 11:48:10 AM
Post by: Buckjunkie on August 12, 2023, 12:12:22 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 12, 2023, 12:27:50 PM
This guy seems like he bought a screwdriver to do a hammer’s job. I really like that comparison. He seems pissed about the downfalls/limits(for some) that he ignored or failed to learn about before he purchased his truck. That’s dumb and it’s not the truck’s fault or the manufacturer’s fault or the government’s fault or anyone’s fault but his own. EV’s have a place. They’re not for everyone. Another example of someone doing something stupid then trying to pass the blame to someone else. I thought we were against that kind of dumbness.
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 12, 2023, 01:04:11 PM
Post by: GOcougsHunter on August 12, 2023, 04:56:27 PM
Back to the article that the thread was started about…perfectly said!
This guy seems like he bought a screwdriver to do a hammer’s job. I really like that comparison. He seems pissed about the downfalls/limits(for some) that he ignored or failed to learn about before he purchased his truck. That’s dumb and it’s not the truck’s fault or the manufacturer’s fault or the government’s fault or anyone’s fault but his own. EV’s have a place. They’re not for everyone. Another example of someone doing something stupid then trying to pass the blame to someone else. I thought we were against that kind of dumbness.
Post by: jackelope on September 01, 2023, 09:09:18 PM
@smalldog
Its all about controlling your liberty and getting more out of your pocket. Government is not your friend but they want you to think they are and want you to turn your life over to them. Don't be fooled by their green scams, I will never by an electric car or truck. I love RVing and traveling all over and I would not be able to do so with an electric Truck. This country is not even close to having an infrastructure to even come close to what these idiots in the Whitehouse wants and they know it. Its all about getting your money.
So it’s the governments fault that this guy didn’t do his homework, bought a vehicle that didn’t fit his needs and is now upset about it? It’s not the guy’s fault for not taking responsibility to learn about what he spent an exorbitant amount of money on? He just did it because someone else told him it was ok and that’s not his fault? Please expand. I can’t wait.
Post by: Cougartail on September 02, 2023, 06:35:24 AM
Stare into the electronic devices. Government and corporations will show you the way to live your life.
Be sure to wear your mask and take our shot our you won't have a life.
Shame on the government for spreading stupidity and him for believing it.
What's the difference between a used car salesman and a bureaucrat? You expect the salesman to blow smoke.
Post by: NW SURVEYOR on September 02, 2023, 08:16:56 AM
The guy's a clown.
He should move to Florida to be closer to his kind.
Post by: smalldog on September 02, 2023, 10:48:43 AM
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 20, 2023, 08:07:25 AM
Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.I wouldn't buy one at all....EVER! I don't give a rip about the charge or how long it lasts! They'd love everyone to own an electric vehicle so they can shut you down whenever they want.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
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Post by: grizzlyadams on September 20, 2023, 08:09:25 AM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.Exactly
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
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Post by: 10thmountainarcher on September 20, 2023, 08:11:32 AM
Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.I wouldn't buy one at all....EVER! I don't give a rip about the charge or how long it lasts! They'd love everyone to own an electric vehicle so they can shut you down whenever they want.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
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If that’s your concern, you can’t buy any newer vehicle.
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 20, 2023, 08:25:36 AM
Absolutely wrong! I have a 2021 silverado 2500 LTZ and the first thing I had done to it was have every bit of the Onstar disabled.....and yes it can be done and vehicle still operates after removing components required for remote vehicle tracking and operation.Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.I wouldn't buy one at all....EVER! I don't give a rip about the charge or how long it lasts! They'd love everyone to own an electric vehicle so they can shut you down whenever they want.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
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If that’s your concern, you can’t buy any newer vehicle.
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Post by: 10thmountainarcher on September 20, 2023, 08:30:20 AM
Absolutely wrong! I have a 2021 silverado 2500 LTZ and the first thing I had done to it was have every bit of the Onstar disabled.....and yes it can be done and vehicle still operates after removing components required for remote vehicle tracking and operation.Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.I wouldn't buy one at all....EVER! I don't give a rip about the charge or how long it lasts! They'd love everyone to own an electric vehicle so they can shut you down whenever they want.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
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If that’s your concern, you can’t buy any newer vehicle.
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What would stop you from doing the same in an electric vehicle? If you’re concerned about the government shutting off vehicles to prevent travel, it would be far more complex than your onstar system. Do you still have GPS?
Post by: jackelope on September 20, 2023, 10:46:11 AM
Also msrp for a lightning starts at $50k. A full load platinum lightning is $95k roughly. So he’s also an idiot for paying $20k or more over Msrp for an electric truck that he “needed for work”.I wouldn't buy one at all....EVER! I don't give a rip about the charge or how long it lasts! They'd love everyone to own an electric vehicle so they can shut you down whenever they want.
Why would you buy a truck that won’t make it to your cabin without needing to be charged before you got there? Dumb purchase.
This guy deserves what he got.
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Huh?
Who’s they and how exactly do you think they are going to “shut you down?”
What’s the difference between whatever you’re implying here with am EV and disabling Onstar? Mostly positive that onstar doesmt have the ability to shut your truck down. I’m 100% positive it didn’t have that ability less than 10 years ago and onstar has been around 20+ years. I used to install it on GM vehicles before it was a factory installed option.
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 21, 2023, 01:27:03 AM
Getting too deep into the weeds on this. Let's just say your leaders love EV's due to the ability to control your ability to move about freely.
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Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 07:11:36 AM
Well if I can start it or shut it down through OnStar remotely. So can a tyrannical entity.
Getting too deep into the weeds on this. Let's just say your leaders love EV's due to the ability to control your ability to move about freely.
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Got it.
I don’t mean to debunk your thoughts on government control of EV’s on this one, but you can remote start and shut off pretty much everything Chevy and Ford makes over the last few years irregardless of whether it’s EV powered or not. MyChevrolet App or the FordPass app does it all.
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 21, 2023, 08:14:54 AM
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Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 08:21:22 AM
You're correct but if you read my earlier post you'll see that I removed the components that make that happen. It's not well published but the info on how and what is out there. No warning lights and truck still operates as normal. It just can be tracked or receive their signals or be remotely operated at all anymore.
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My point in my comments was related to the ones you made earlier about the EV stuff. You mentioned never getting an EV because of the government control. I was just saying it doesn’t have to be an EV to be able to remote start a vehicle with a phone. Or whatever method.
Hell, I can tell how much gas my wife’s car has in it from my desktop computer at work when she’s 100 miles away somewhere on a trip. I can’t turn her car on or off though…
Post by: Ridgeratt on September 21, 2023, 08:41:47 AM
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
Anything that has a electronic keypad has a manufactured backdoor.
Jackalope doesn't Ford have a master code to get into the keyless entry on the door?
When your dealership takes a trade-in, they don't ask for the old door code they just reset it.
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 21, 2023, 10:24:59 AM
We don't need to be connected to today's electronic society be happy. As a matter of fact we are more happy without it. We dont live in the dark ages but we reserve the right to our privacy and autonomy in every instance if desired. We use stuff but have no problem cutting the cord either.
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Post by: grizzlyadams on September 21, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
So you are happy with that much access to your wife's vehicle. If you can see it someone else also has the same information. They can track your location on your cell phone or any of your apps.They 100% have that ability with stingray tech. From the ground or air and you'll never know they downliaded every bite of data you have stored on your phone and in every app. They can see it all and you think your phone is just connected to a cell phone tower.
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
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Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 04:06:41 PM
So you are happy with that much access to your wife's vehicle. If you can see it someone else also has the same information. They can track your location on your cell phone or any of your apps.
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
Anything that has a electronic keypad has a manufactured backdoor.
Jackalope doesn't Ford have a master code to get into the keyless entry on the door?
When your dealership takes a trade-in, they don't ask for the old door code they just reset it.
We don’t reset it or ask for the code. There’s no such thing as a master code. There is a key pad code, but it can’t be retrieved without the vehicle present and open/unlocked and powered on.
If the owner of the vehicle “connects” his vehicle to the web, I can see it. If they don’t connect it, I can’t see it. It’s not my call. It’s up to the owner of the vehicle. And no, I don’t care if someone can see how much gas is in my car. 90+% of owners have their vehicles connected. It’s not accidental. It’s an involved process. They do it 100% on purpose. I can’t start their car or turn it off. I can’t track it. I can’t change their radio stations or anything.
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
1- you posted all of that from a phone using an app.So you are happy with that much access to your wife's vehicle. If you can see it someone else also has the same information. They can track your location on your cell phone or any of your apps.They 100% have that ability with stingray tech. From the ground or air and you'll never know they downliaded every bite of data you have stored on your phone and in every app. They can see it all and you think your phone is just connected to a cell phone tower.
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
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2- 10+ years working for Ford and I’ve never heard of “stingray tech.”
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 04:16:53 PM
So you are happy with that much access to your wife's vehicle. If you can see it someone else also has the same information. They can track your location on your cell phone or any of your apps.
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
Anything that has a electronic keypad has a manufactured backdoor.
Jackalope doesn't Ford have a master code to get into the keyless entry on the door?
When your dealership takes a trade-in, they don't ask for the old door code they just reset it.
The keypad in a Ford uses the same means to unlock the doors that your remote key fob uses to lock and unlock the doors. There’s no secret back door. The key pad code is factory set and can’t be changed. I don’t have any way to know what it is unless we plug into the DLC with our scan tool and retrieve the code. The door has to be open and the car has to be powered on. Doesn’t have to be running, just on. The owner can add their own code if they want, but the factory code always will work.
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 21, 2023, 05:01:07 PM
1-Yes as I stated previously I have the ability to go dark at any time. Yes I use the app and a smart phone. However it is de-googled and can be put in a Faraday bag whenever I want. If needed I can kick it to the curb and live without it at any time.1- you posted all of that from a phone using an app.So you are happy with that much access to your wife's vehicle. If you can see it someone else also has the same information. They can track your location on your cell phone or any of your apps.They 100% have that ability with stingray tech. From the ground or air and you'll never know they downliaded every bite of data you have stored on your phone and in every app. They can see it all and you think your phone is just connected to a cell phone tower.
Who's to say that they have the ability to override your apps.
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2- 10+ years working for Ford and I’ve never heard of “stingray tech.”
2-Stingray and Dirtbox tech was developed and built by Boeing. It is used by law enforcement, alphabet agencies, DOD, and other NGO's on contract with the Fed's. Also used on Q9 and Q4 drones as well as multiple other platforms in the military and civilan aircraft. It mimics a cell phone tower and diverts every person's cell phone signals and data within a 25 mile radius to data centers where teams of personnel analyze your data and you'll never know it unless you're tracking flights around your location. Say thank you to your government for the Patriot Act.
Some (not all) local law enforcement have vehicles on the ground using it. It is much more limited on the ground than in the air. Effective radius is cut in half. Not only can they get all of your data, they can force software into your OS without your knowledge.
The same tech can be used on your vehicle from satellite, aircraft or on the ground.
Sounds like you're in the dark about many things. Start doing some research and learn about what's really going on around you.
Ask me how I know? Let's just say I do for now.
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Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 05:11:38 PM
Post by: Gettin Birdie on September 21, 2023, 07:47:32 PM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
You are a man who observes the truth, regardless of partisan B.S. , couldn't have said it better and I'm a "millenial". So, there is still hope timberfaller! We might end up in the shadows, but truth will prevail.
@jackelope, sad part is, electric vehicles aren't a bad idea, they are great for city dwellers and people who don't go far, it's just the fact that they are trying to force it on the whole country. It's not remotely sustainable in rural communities at all, and the environmental devastation it allows is nowhere near green. Slave labor in Africa, owned by the Chinese for cobalt...where's the moral superiority on that one? Things in thought v. practicality are often way different, when pushed by $$, they've actually ruined the "green" movement, cause it's not about the Earth's green, but pockets of it. And just FYI, 'irregardless' is not a word, it is 'regardless' and I mean no insult about that at all, it took me many years to be told that and realize it myself, just a friendly gesture is meant by pointing that out.
I'd never own an EV, because it is not practical for me, not because I don't "care about the environment" All of us as hunter's do, we are the main proponents for it. I get it, you work for Ford, but don't be blinded by that and realize you don't have to agree with what they do as a big corporation in it's entirety to earn a living.
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 07:53:36 PM
The ONLY reason I am against EV's is simple, to get all the components, you are in the process of destroying the planet!! Going "green" is at best, Hypocritical After a EV is done, it become toxic waste.
Ya it would take decades to get the infrastructure in place, BUT, what is the left doing to make that impossible??? Oh ya, tear out dams, shut down coal and nuclear. Wind and solar ARE NOT going to be able to meet the needs, beside, after 25 years THEY become toxic waste!!
Yep going green is only about the green going into politicians and lobbyist bank accounts!
You are a man who observes the truth, regardless of partisan B.S. , couldn't have said it better and I'm a "millenial". So, there is still hope timberfaller! We might end up in the shadows, but truth will prevail.
@jackelope, sad part is, electric vehicles aren't a bad idea, they are great for city dwellers and people who don't go far, it's just the fact that they are trying to force it on the whole country. It's not remotely sustainable in rural communities at all, and the environmental devastation it allows is nowhere near green. Slave labor in Africa, owned by the Chinese for cobalt...where's the moral superiority on that one? Things in thought v. practicality are often way different, when pushed by $$, they've actually ruined the "green" movement, cause it's not about the Earth's green, but pockets of it. And just FYI, 'irregardless' is not a word, it is 'regardless' and I mean no insult about that at all, it took me many years to be told that and realize it myself, just a friendly gesture is meant by pointing that out.
I'd never own an EV, because it is not practical for me, not because I don't "care about the environment" All of us as hunter's do, we are the main proponents for it. I get it, you work for Ford, but don't be blinded by that and realize you don't have to agree with what they do as a big corporation in it's entirety to earn a living.
Does it seem like I’m promoting EV’s? I’m totally not. There’s a good chance I’ll never buy one also. Definitely not buying one at this point in my life. I am promoting that consumers should not be dummies. If someone is going to buy one, great. Do the research and don’t blame it on someone else if you make a poor choice.
Irregardless is absolutely a word.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230922/e09e5f9bf74ccdfdcfd0bbed5bd535a2.jpg)
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2023, 07:58:15 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 21, 2023, 10:10:08 PM
When I can do that in a EV, I’ll consider it. Until then…no way in hell! :twocents:
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 22, 2023, 01:24:40 AM
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Post by: Alchase on September 22, 2023, 06:25:53 AM
My Excursion is about to hit 600K, drive it almost daily. I can still fill it up here, and stop once for a 10 minute fuel in Montana, before arriving at my destination in Wyoming!
When I can do that in a EV, I’ll consider it. Until then…no way in hell! :twocents:
In a Ford no less :chuckle:
600K is impressive no matter what brand. :tup:
Post by: Lincoln4 on September 22, 2023, 07:28:54 AM
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 22, 2023, 08:00:26 AM
"No thank you"... :chuckle: You guys talk like in a few years the collective government will allow you to have a choice!There always a choice when the collective masses won't comply.
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Post by: huntnphool on September 22, 2023, 09:55:24 PM
:chuckle:My Excursion is about to hit 600K, drive it almost daily. I can still fill it up here, and stop once for a 10 minute fuel in Montana, before arriving at my destination in Wyoming!
When I can do that in a EV, I’ll consider it. Until then…no way in hell! :twocents:
In a Ford no less :chuckle:
600K is impressive no matter what brand. :tup:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 23, 2023, 08:29:26 AM
Post by: Alchase on September 23, 2023, 06:25:42 PM
Wait until inslee figures out fueling time is a major factor in deciding against ev. He'll put micropumps at gas stations to make fueling up equal to recharging. It will be like a pin sized stream taking 3 hours to fill a tank.
He has precedence, during both of the “gas shortages” in the 70’s, they limited fill ups to only 10 gallons. :bash:
Post by: huntnphool on September 25, 2023, 09:39:43 PM
Post by: CP on September 26, 2023, 05:15:42 AM
Anybody ask themselves why government police and emergency vehicles have not gone electric yet? :rolleyes:
Mukilteo PD has at least one Tesla police cruiser.
Post by: jackelope on September 26, 2023, 05:18:56 AM
Anybody ask themselves why government police and emergency vehicles have not gone electric yet? :rolleyes:Multiple EV’s in police and city municipality service around me at work.
Google “Tesla police car”. Multiple agencies have gone to complete EV’s and there are companies converting them into police vehicles.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 26, 2023, 07:58:01 AM
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPR7613sV/
Post by: Humptulips on September 29, 2023, 07:00:35 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/04/12/biden-proposes-standards-designed-to-make-most-new-us-cars-electric-by-2032/?sh=502c46073385
Post by: LDennis24 on September 29, 2023, 07:09:19 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 29, 2023, 11:24:11 PM
Or for people who can't afford a new EV. :dunno:
Or more to the point…people who don’t want a new EV! ;)
Post by: Cougartail on September 30, 2023, 04:34:49 AM
Kind of political so take it easy with your comments.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/04/12/biden-proposes-standards-designed-to-make-most-new-us-cars-electric-by-2032/?sh=502c46073385
This actually could cause a civil war. It definitely would cause the collapse of the American economy.
Thank God some people are waking up and we will most likely be voting these idealistic dimwits out of power.
When winter hits and "brown outs" have people freezing to death I wouldn't go for a drive in your electric car. :twocents:
Post by: kball4 on October 04, 2023, 09:08:10 AM
Post by: Sandberm on October 04, 2023, 09:34:03 AM
Post by: Stein on October 04, 2023, 09:46:22 AM
My sister said something like 30% less employees are needed to build an EV versus an ice vehicle? Interesting if true.
I heard that in the strike discussion.
There are also a lot less people needed to make parts and maintain them. Not much need for Jiffy Lube or muffler shops either.
Post by: Igor on October 04, 2023, 09:46:32 AM
My sister said something like 30% less employees are needed to build an EV versus an ice vehicle? Interesting if true.
EV Manufacturing Requires Fewer Workers
Consequently, EVs require fewer workers to assemble. Automakers like Ford and Volkswagen report that EV manufacturing requires 30% to 40% less labor than gasoline-powered vehicles
https://americafirstpolicy.com/latest/research-report-proposed-ev-mandate-would-eliminate-117000-auto-manufacturing-jobs
Post by: salmosalar on October 04, 2023, 11:39:45 AM
My wife has a hybrid. It's a fantastic car. As a plug in hybrid it only goes about 30 miles on a charge. Anything over that is on gas. We have had it for a year or so. She has filled it up a handful of times. When I first calculated the gas mileage it was around 150 miles/ gallon. It's likely gotten better since then. We live inside city limits and work close to our home so it's rare that she drives more than 30 miles before being able to plug it in. Obviously, it's a different scenario for those who live far from where they work or far from things. I have always appreciated less unpaid windshield time so my choice has been to live close to work, grocery stores etc.
I have actually considered buying an old electric regardless of any reduced battery life. Honestly, I only need like 10 miles of battery storage for a commuter. My solar can charge it at home or at least off set the power used when charging. Reducing my effect on the global oil market that benefits Middle Eastern Ideologues and Russia appeals to me. My electricity is either generated by my own solar or hydro due to where I live.
Given that about 80% of Americans live in an urban area, electric cars are probably a superior choice for a majority of US residents. I mean 75% of auto accidents occur within 25 miles of home. That sort of shows you how far from home most Americans are driving.
I am not a "car guy" or "truck guy". They are just tools to get me too and from somewhere. My personal identity is not connected to what I drive. I just try to make the most logical decision for me. I am having a hard time seeing how my next vehicle won't be electric or plug in hybrid. For me, it really just would not make sense given where and how I live.
I am curious if there will be an increase in used gas vehicles available soon as people transition. There may be some fantastic deals available in a few years for those people that live in more remote areas or who prefer petroleum fuel vehicles.
Post by: huntnphool on October 04, 2023, 12:41:03 PM
Post by: CP on October 04, 2023, 12:45:25 PM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the issue with battery disposal.
What's the issue with battery disposal?
Post by: GOcougsHunter on October 04, 2023, 01:06:11 PM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the issue with battery disposal.
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/are-electric-car-batteries-recyclable
We humans are pretty ingenious.. technology continues to improve. No such thing as 0 footprint.
Post by: CP on October 04, 2023, 02:14:11 PM
EV's are just basically much simpler that internal combustion engines. The issue has always been the energy storage portion. Without that part, it is a nearly impossible sell that they are not superior. The take of portion is remarkable. hit the gas and it goes. In fact, if it weren't for the difficulty in storing electricity all vehicles would have been electric from the start. Electric motors are just far simpler.
My wife has a hybrid. It's a fantastic car. As a plug in hybrid it only goes about 30 miles on a charge. Anything over that is on gas. We have had it for a year or so. She has filled it up a handful of times. When I first calculated the gas mileage it was around 150 miles/ gallon. It's likely gotten better since then. We live inside city limits and work close to our home so it's rare that she drives more than 30 miles before being able to plug it in. Obviously, it's a different scenario for those who live far from where they work or far from things. I have always appreciated less unpaid windshield time so my choice has been to live close to work, grocery stores etc.
I have actually considered buying an old electric regardless of any reduced battery life. Honestly, I only need like 10 miles of battery storage for a commuter. My solar can charge it at home or at least off set the power used when charging. Reducing my effect on the global oil market that benefits Middle Eastern Ideologues and Russia appeals to me. My electricity is either generated by my own solar or hydro due to where I live.
Given that about 80% of Americans live in an urban area, electric cars are probably a superior choice for a majority of US residents. I mean 75% of auto accidents occur within 25 miles of home. That sort of shows you how far from home most Americans are driving.
I am not a "car guy" or "truck guy". They are just tools to get me too and from somewhere. My personal identity is not connected to what I drive. I just try to make the most logical decision for me. I am having a hard time seeing how my next vehicle won't be electric or plug in hybrid. For me, it really just would not make sense given where and how I live.
I am curious if there will be an increase in used gas vehicles available soon as people transition. There may be some fantastic deals available in a few years for those people that live in more remote areas or who prefer petroleum fuel vehicles.
Excellent summary. I’ve owned an E-moto for a little over 2 years now and I’m still amazed by the simplicity of the machine. No clutch, no engine, no transmission, no vibration, no fumes, no gasoline, no maintenance, no burning myself on the exhaust, no stalling the engine, insane torque. Just twist the throttle and go.
Electric truck? No, not for me. But my next car will probably be an EV.
Post by: salmosalar on October 04, 2023, 02:35:43 PM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the issue with battery disposal.
What's the issue with battery disposal?
The same as with any other battery, including the ones in gas cars. Batteries tend to use heavy metals that are toxic (lead, lithium etc.). So disposing of toxic things is difficult. There are regulations in place that try to keep them from your standard municipal waste landfill. These reg's make the cost of disposal higher than the cost of recycling and therefore incentivize recycling. Otherwise, we'd just landfill them in due to economics as was once done.
There are recycling technologies that work for EV batteries just as with lead acid. Companies are doing it. Our "free market" based economy is doing what it does and is creating businesses that fill the need. I am pleased that there are American companies doing it. As with seemingly every market associated with the energy sector there is government interference.
The hazardous waste concerns about EV's are kind of humorous to me as I worked in Haz waste for a lot of years. IC cars produce a lot of hazardous was over their life and when disposed of. Essentially, any liquid petroleum product is haz waste when it's disposed of. The cars literally run off a material that has a shelf life after which it becomes hazardous waste. Most IC haz waste streams are recycled or go for "energy recovery". The hazardous waste stream changes from petroleum based haz waste to metals based haz waste with EV's. Recycling metals is not only a thing but given all the concern over mining those same metals, it stands to reason that they are a resource to be recycled.
Post by: Skillet on October 04, 2023, 09:22:50 PM
Every job has its correct tool. To say any one tool is bad because it doesn't do the job you need it to do is just as incorrect as saying one tool does every job well.
Beyond the politization of the EV discussion, there are still a group of smart people looking at ways to make the technology work for them. A relative newcomer to the scene is Edison Motors, a startup on Vancouver Island. Their motto: "Stealing Tesla's ideas." Very clever.
He's a logging truck owner/operator, and sees diesel-electric as the future for vocational heavy trucks. In particular, logging trucks. Since an electric vehicle has regenerative braking, applying the brakes charges the batteries. Typically, logging trucks go uphill light, and down hill heavy - so theoretically, they can use the stored energy of the timber at elevation in the mountains to power their trucks.
Here is a vid of the prototype diesel-electric logging truck they just built, dubbed "Topsy." The owner is a character, and opinionated. He's building the truck for reliability and ease of service. I hope he's wildly successful -
Post by: 7mmfan on October 05, 2023, 08:03:36 AM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the issue with battery disposal.
What's the issue with battery disposal?
The same as with any other battery, including the ones in gas cars. Batteries tend to use heavy metals that are toxic (lead, lithium etc.). So disposing of toxic things is difficult. There are regulations in place that try to keep them from your standard municipal waste landfill. These reg's make the cost of disposal higher than the cost of recycling and therefore incentivize recycling. Otherwise, we'd just landfill them in due to economics as was once done.
There are recycling technologies that work for EV batteries just as with lead acid. Companies are doing it. Our "free market" based economy is doing what it does and is creating businesses that fill the need. I am pleased that there are American companies doing it. As with seemingly every market associated with the energy sector there is government interference.
The hazardous waste concerns about EV's are kind of humorous to me as I worked in Haz waste for a lot of years. IC cars produce a lot of hazardous was over their life and when disposed of. Essentially, any liquid petroleum product is haz waste when it's disposed of. The cars literally run off a material that has a shelf life after which it becomes hazardous waste. Most IC haz waste streams are recycled or go for "energy recovery". The hazardous waste stream changes from petroleum based haz waste to metals based haz waste with EV's. Recycling metals is not only a thing but given all the concern over mining those same metals, it stands to reason that they are a resource to be recycled.
Yes EV battery disposal is a quickly developing market. There are multiple domestic companies setup for EV battery recycling and more and better technology is being developed as we speak. Recycling of these batteries will be a moot point by 2030.
Post by: Alchase on October 05, 2023, 08:19:30 AM
Battery life = between 3-5 years
Battery Replacement costs = between $23,559 and $23,690. Labor costs are estimated between $502 and $633 while parts are priced between $23,057 and $23,057.
:hello:
Post by: grizzlyadams on October 05, 2023, 12:25:59 PM
I guess ignorance really is bliss
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Post by: salmosalar on October 05, 2023, 12:38:22 PM
There are a ton of 2013 - 2018 Ford Focus EVs for sale! :chuckle:
Battery life = between 3-5 years
Battery Replacement costs = between $23,559 and $23,690. Labor costs are estimated between $502 and $633 while parts are priced between $23,057 and $23,057.
:hello:
There are a lot of scary articles out there like the Florida family buying a Focus with a bad battery. When you look at the actual data though you can see that most of the stories are individual anecdotes and that they don't really tell the story. Modern news stories are designed to get an emotional response rather than educate the reader. A news story that gets people angry has become the norm. These stories tend to feed the ant-electric vehicle narrative and are circulated around the same news sources that cater to and create the anti-electric crowd. Raw data is boring. The raw data, in my opinion, shows that for the majority of people electric vehicles or hybrid vehicles are excellent choices. For others, they are poor choices. A data driven approach shows that battery life is rarely the reason that the vehicle would be a bad choice.
Ford sold about 9,000 Ford Focus EV's in the US in the 2013-2018 timeframe. With that many in the US, I doubt that there are truly that many used Focus EV's for sale. I mean, I guess that here could be as many as 9,000 or so. That particular model has a preposterously expensive battery to replace. The prices quoted above for that model are about twice what an average Tesla battery replacement would cost. It is really is not indicative of the average or normal costs of short range EV replacement batteries. For instance, replacement Leaf batteries are far less expensive. Due to the fact that so few Ford Focus' were sold, refurbished batteries are very expensive for that model. Even the refurbished ones go for 14-15K. It is a matter of supply and demand/ economy of scale. Of all the EV's the ford Focus may be the biggest outlier when considering battery life and value. It is not at all representative of the norm for EV's. Personally, I certainly would not buy a Focus EV from that time period unless something changed with regards to the cost of battery replacement. I may consider a Leaf since I have a short commute and refurbished/ used batteries are more available. For people who commute a long way, neither car ever would have been practical.
Replacement battery costs vary a lot. EV Batteries are federally mandated to be warranted for 8 yrs/ 100,000 miles. So 8/100K is the minimum. Some model warranties exceed the mandated timeframes. The Rivian is warrantied to 175,000 mi. Batteries have improved in longevity and range as the competitive nature of the market has driven advancements in the technology. The majority (over 98%)of actual EV battery replacements that have occurred on EV's that were under warranty. Most non-warranted replacement are from the older battery types, like the 2013-2018 focus'. The majority of EV's are relatively new so most are still under warranty. After all, only 9,000 of those Ford Focus EV's were even sold in US. If you buy an EV that is 7 yrs old, you may want to factor the warranty in but chances are you will not need to replace it. Also understand that battery replacement costs will likely be lower for cars that have sold more that the Ford Focus' 9,000. You are more likely able to get refurbished batteries. Refurbished batteries are becoming more available as that market is beginning to develop. The market for the replacement batteries will continue to drive it's development. Go free market!
Post by: jackelope on October 05, 2023, 08:19:04 PM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the issue with battery disposal.
They’re going back to be remanufactured. Just like reman engines and transmissions.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 05, 2023, 08:21:38 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 05, 2023, 08:23:54 PM
There are a ton of 2013 - 2018 Ford Focus EVs for sale! :chuckle:
Battery life = between 3-5 years
Battery Replacement costs = between $23,559 and $23,690. Labor costs are estimated between $502 and $633 while parts are priced between $23,057 and $23,057.
:hello:
Been with Ford over 10 years now. The only Focus EV battery I’ve ever replaced was due to an accident. It was damaged in a crash. I’m not sure who came up with those numbers as far as battery life. I can’t back that up with what I’ve seen. With that said, there are not many Focus EV’s around.
I did replace a Mach E battery a few months ago. The dead no profit cost of the battery was $32k. We couldn’t mark it up but if we could, at Ford warranty parts markup, it would have been around $65k.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 05, 2023, 08:25:08 PM
There are a ton of 2013 - 2018 Ford Focus EVs for sale! :chuckle:
Battery life = between 3-5 years
Battery Replacement costs = between $23,559 and $23,690. Labor costs are estimated between $502 and $633 while parts are priced between $23,057 and $23,057.
:hello:
Been with Ford over 10 years now. The only Focus EV battery I’ve ever replaced was due to an accident. It was damaged in a crash. I’m not sure who came up with those numbers as far as battery life. I can’t back that up with what I’ve seen. With that said, there are not many Focus EV’s around.
I did replace a Mach E battery a few months ago. The dead no profit cost of the battery was $32k. We couldn’t mark it up but if we could, at Ford warranty parts markup, it would have been around $65k.
Was there any refurbished batteries available? What was the mileage of that vehicle? Shouldn't the warranty have covered it that Salmo mentioned?
Post by: jackelope on October 05, 2023, 08:25:16 PM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
I’m not here to support the EV nonsense at all, but the Ford high voltage battery systems have their own cooling systems. Fans and coolant. Just like a regular engine.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 05, 2023, 08:29:56 PM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
I’m not here to support the EV nonsense at all, but the Ford high voltage battery systems have their own cooling systems. Fans and coolant. Just like a regular engine.
But is that coolant system running while charging the vehicle? What happens to the battery life during those times? What kills batteries is temperature and over and under charging. Which means that if you dont completely charge your battery to the recommend specs every time you are degrading it's life and who has time to always wait several hrs to fully charge a battery on a trip?
Post by: LDennis24 on October 05, 2023, 08:33:30 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 05, 2023, 08:34:28 PM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
I’m not here to support the EV nonsense at all, but the Ford high voltage battery systems have their own cooling systems. Fans and coolant. Just like a regular engine.
But is that coolant system running while charging the vehicle? What happens to the battery life during those times? What kills batteries is temperature and over and under charging. Which means that if you dont completely charge your battery to the recommend specs every time you are degrading it's life and who has time to always wait several hrs to fully charge a battery on a trip?
This is over my head from a knowledge standpoint. I’m not an engineer and I’m not up to snuff on my super high tech ev car battery knowledge. I know they’re different from your typical Duracell AA battery. I’ll leave that up to the pros.
As far as charging, it doesn’t take “several hours” to charge a battery on road trips if you plan your trip and hit the public(not sure if that’s the right word) level 3 chargers along the way. Those big chargers will charge your car in under an hour. I thought that was pretty common knowledge.
I guess with that said, using a fully electric vehicle on a road trip is a dumb idea. If someone is actually doing that, they hopefully have done their homework and hopefully know and fully understand the downfalls at this point in time to road tripping in an EV.
Folks I’ve talked to at work usually have another vehicle with a traditional engine for road trips or they rent cars. That seems to be the common response.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 05, 2023, 08:36:26 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 05, 2023, 08:38:47 PM
Right, it's pretty easy to find a high speed charging location in major cities. But I still don't get how the temperature doesn't kill them. :dunno:
Seems to be more a hit to the range than a battery life thing. I’ll assume it’s a technology thing.
68-85 degrees is the sweet spot according to the googler.
Post by: Gettin Birdie on October 06, 2023, 05:31:29 AM
https://www.westernjournal.com/town-falls-back-diesel-fleet-none-electric-buses-work/
I do think Electric is a good idea, has it's place and needs more development, but it's not a one size fits all like some people wanna make it, either gas or electric. I personally would never own one because it's not economical for me to do so, rural lifestyle.
Post by: CP on October 06, 2023, 07:08:41 AM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
Not to promote nonsense, but here are my observations from my actual study of operating one, for what they are worth. Non-scientific study:
Finding a working charger is not easy. I wouldn’t bet on getting home on by finding a recharge.
Batteries work great at 85 degrees. They get much hotter under high amp draw. I actually get better range and performance when its hot out.
Performance drops when its cold. I notice a distinct drop in hp and range when it’s below 40 degrees or so.
Performance drops as the battery level drops. But range increases. I get more range on the 2nd half of a charge than I get on the top half, but the 0 to 30mph time isn’t as impressive.
It does not degrade the battery to give them a partial charge. They are supposed to last longer when the charge is kept between 20% and 80%. And the last 20% of the charge takes the most time. I haven’t noticed any change in performance or range after 2 years of operation.
Water crossings are scary.
What’s the point of your questions? Thinking of buying one?
Post by: salmosalar on October 06, 2023, 09:59:53 AM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
I’m not here to support the EV nonsense at all, but the Ford high voltage battery systems have their own cooling systems. Fans and coolant. Just like a regular engine.
But is that coolant system running while charging the vehicle? What happens to the battery life during those times? What kills batteries is temperature and over and under charging. Which means that if you dont completely charge your battery to the recommend specs every time you are degrading it's life and who has time to always wait several hrs to fully charge a battery on a trip?
This is over my head from a knowledge standpoint. I’m not an engineer and I’m not up to snuff on my super high tech ev car battery knowledge. I know they’re different from your typical Duracell AA battery. I’ll leave that up to the pros.
As far as charging, it doesn’t take “several hours” to charge a battery on road trips if you plan your trip and hit the public(not sure if that’s the right word) level 3 chargers along the way. Those big chargers will charge your car in under an hour. I thought that was pretty common knowledge.
I guess with that said, using a fully electric vehicle on a road trip is a dumb idea. If someone is actually doing that, they hopefully have done their homework and hopefully know and fully understand the downfalls at this point in time to road tripping in an EV.
Folks I’ve talked to at work usually have another vehicle with a traditional engine for road trips or they rent cars. That seems to be the common response.
The issue is that here are constant scare articles published about EV's. People actually think things like battery lives are 3-5 years or that it takes 3 hours to charge a battery. Their was a meme that I saw that claimed that if you got stuck in a traffic jam in a tesla in the cold it was common to run out of battery by running your heater and then you'd need your car towed. People believe these things because they really want to believe them. They don't really realize that an EV can run a heater on a charge a hell of a lot longer than a ICE vehicle can idle on a tank of gas. In my opinion most of the nonsense that I see is in the form of misinformation regarding EV's shortcomings like that meme. Things like that they catch fire all the time when they actually catch fire less than ICE vehicles equipped with a tank of with a flammable liquid or that EV owners spend a lot of time charging their car when most spend far less time since their car charges at night at home.
I don't think that I'd take an EV for a road trip across the country but I would take one to Portland from Bellingham. I'd probably feel comfortable driving either coast. We have charging stations within 1 mile of my house in Bellingham and there are stations all down I-5. Honestly, we never use them because the one car that my family owns with an electric motor is a hybrid and it's charged up every nigh after work. I actually do not think we've ever charged at a public charging station. I have ridden in EV's up and down the Puget Sound in other people cars for kids soccer and such and charging has never been an issue. I've been in Teslas mostly though and range isn't much of an issue for rides up and down I-5 either so we only ever stopped to charge a couple of times. I believe that he Teslas may even tell you where chargers are located on the screen.
EV's are not particularly good choices for rural residents at this point. If I lived in a rural location, it would not be my choice. The thing is that the majority of Americans don't live in rural areas. I'm quite sure the next vehicle that I buy will have an electric motor be it a full EV or a hybrid. The last we bought is a plug-in hybrid. It's a remarkable vehicle and we rarely buy gas. It may be a while before I do given how short my commute is. No matter what the energy savings may be or how much nicer the vehicle may be it's hard to compete with my present car payment of $0.00/ mo.
I am still quite interested to see if used gas vehicles become less expensive as time goes on and EV's become more prevalent. I wonder if in 10 years those people who don't want to use an EV will be able to buy really nice used ICE vehicles for far less than they can now.
Post by: Alchase on October 06, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38807463/tesla-model-3-climate-control-cold-weather-test/
Post by: jackelope on October 06, 2023, 09:10:51 PM
Here is a Car and Driver article that supports the EV “heater” not being an issue.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38807463/tesla-model-3-climate-control-cold-weather-test/
But but but ….
Post by: LDennis24 on October 06, 2023, 10:27:25 PM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
Not to promote nonsense, but here are my observations from my actual study of operating one, for what they are worth. Non-scientific study:
Finding a working charger is not easy. I wouldn’t bet on getting home on by finding a recharge.
Batteries work great at 85 degrees. They get much hotter under high amp draw. I actually get better range and performance when its hot out.
Performance drops when its cold. I notice a distinct drop in hp and range when it’s below 40 degrees or so.
Performance drops as the battery level drops. But range increases. I get more range on the 2nd half of a charge than I get on the top half, but the 0 to 30mph time isn’t as impressive.
It does not degrade the battery to give them a partial charge. They are supposed to last longer when the charge is kept between 20% and 80%. And the last 20% of the charge takes the most time. I haven’t noticed any change in performance or range after 2 years of operation.
Water crossings are scary.
What’s the point of your questions? Thinking of buying one?
No that's just all of the hearsay I get about them. (The nonsense part) I know a few people who have them. I have read about some of the points I brought up also. Like battery life degrading from certain conditions and heat being a problem for lithium batteries is fairly common knowledge. They do degrade quicker when above 85 degrees. But lithium batteries can operate up to 140 degrees. And down to -40 according to Google. I just d I nt know that enough evidence is out there to show they will not cost you $20,000 every 6-10 yrs. And i do know where several Teala charging locations are. Don't really pay attention to the others. :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on October 06, 2023, 10:29:50 PM
Yeah, can any of the folks who support the EV nonsense explain to me how the battery survives in temperatures above 85 degrees? I would like you to post actual studies or evidence of something showing that its going to work. Because lithium ion and lithium iron batteries are meant to stay below 85 degrees during operation if I recall correctly. Kind of confusing that they would push in that direction with summers getting hotter every year due to Al Gore causing global warming... :chuckle::dunno:
Not to promote nonsense, but here are my observations from my actual study of operating one, for what they are worth. Non-scientific study:
Finding a working charger is not easy. I wouldn’t bet on getting home on by finding a recharge.
Batteries work great at 85 degrees. They get much hotter under high amp draw. I actually get better range and performance when its hot out.
Performance drops when its cold. I notice a distinct drop in hp and range when it’s below 40 degrees or so.
Performance drops as the battery level drops. But range increases. I get more range on the 2nd half of a charge than I get on the top half, but the 0 to 30mph time isn’t as impressive.
It does not degrade the battery to give them a partial charge. They are supposed to last longer when the charge is kept between 20% and 80%. And the last 20% of the charge takes the most time. I haven’t noticed any change in performance or range after 2 years of operation.
Water crossings are scary.
What’s the point of your questions? Thinking of buying one?
No that's just all of the hearsay I get about them. I know a few people who have them. I have read about some of the points I brought up also. Like battery life degrading from certain conditions and heat being a problem for lithium batteries is fairly common knowledge. They do degrade quicker when above 85 degrees. But lithium batteries can operate up to 140 degrees. And down to -40 according to Google. I just d I nt know that enough evidence is out there to show they will not cost you $20,000 every 6-10 yrs. :dunno:
They’re covered under warranty for a minimum of 8 years. Most cover them to 10 years.
Post by: Gettin Birdie on October 07, 2023, 08:49:37 AM
The only thing polarizing about this topic is a totalitarian, now communist government trying to take away your freedom to choose. Buy what you want but when they try to force you that's where I, and tens of millions draw the line. They have an agenda and have shown the past few years their intentions are evil. There is no such thing as zero foot print and the forced child labor to mine the lithium in other countries is documented and we'll known but they don't want you to know about that as long as you're forced to buy what the lawmakers have invested in to enrich themselves.
I guess ignorance really is bliss
Sent from my SM-G977U using Tapatalk
Spot on :tup:! That is my only issue with electric, the political nature it has taken on, not actual science and morality/ethics used to promote what it is good for. There is zero foot print, but it takes me, you and the vast majority of the world to be six feet under, then the oligarchal overlords can have it all to themselves ;)
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 07, 2023, 10:10:44 AM
The only thing polarizing about this topic is a totalitarian, now communist government trying to take away your freedom to choose. Buy what you want but when they try to force you that's where I, and tens of millions draw the line. They have an agenda and have shown the past few years their intentions are evil. There is no such thing as zero foot print and the forced child labor to mine the lithium in other countries is documented and we'll known but they don't want you to know about that as long as you're forced to buy what the lawmakers have invested in to enrich themselves.
I guess ignorance really is bliss
Sent from my SM-G977U using Tapatalk
Spot on :tup:! That is my only issue with electric, the political nature it has taken on, not actual science and morality/ethics used to promote what it is good for. There is zero foot print, but it takes me, you and the vast majority of the world to be six feet under, then the oligarchal overlords can have it all to themselves ;)
:yeah: I think Grizzly nailed it
Post by: Stein on October 07, 2023, 10:47:19 AM
There are people pushing EV for the money. There have been people pushing oil for money for over 200 years. Nothing changes in business and politics.
What source of energy would most benefit our country? I don't think you can argue for oil. It's a global commodity price controlled by people that hate us. Technology, efficiency, performance, whatever doesn't even matter, you can't ultimately win in that system with those rules.
Once we are honest about this, it's more of a question of how to make the transition happen and there is plenty of space there to argue.
Post by: Zardoz on October 25, 2023, 09:52:07 PM
I have always been a Ford Fan. But No More. >:( Seems most, if not all, corporate CEO's need to be Fired for their Extremely Poor Performance. :twocents:
RT 10:40
Post by: jackelope on October 25, 2023, 10:00:15 PM
I am Disapoint. (there is a joke in there) :chuckle:
I have always been a Ford Fan. But No More. >:( Seems most, if not all, corporate CEO's need to be Fired for their Extremely Poor Performance. :twocents:
RT 10:40
Why should someone believe the guy who calls a Ford truck an E-150? That’s an old 1/2 ton Econoline van.
Your video is 6 months old. They resumed production a few months ago.
Lots of production of lots of vehicles stopped due to supply chain issues over the last few years. If you’re going to flip Ford crap, they stopped production of a heck of a lot more than just Lightning.
:dunno:
Post by: CP on October 31, 2023, 03:01:50 PM
Post by: Stein on October 31, 2023, 03:10:04 PM
I'm picking up a Model Y tomorrow, should look great parked next to the F-150. I'll be able to irritate 90% of the population with that combo.
Post by: CP on October 31, 2023, 03:43:56 PM
Seems like the CT can do everything except be delivered. :chuckle:
I'm picking up a Model Y tomorrow, should look great parked next to the F-150. I'll be able to irritate 90% of the population with that combo.
Good luck with the new car. :tup: Let us know how it works out for you.
Post by: Stein on November 02, 2023, 05:28:05 PM
Kind of surprising as I thought the Tesla fanboy club was pretty obnoxious, now I'm a very reluctant member.
Post by: jackelope on November 02, 2023, 06:29:04 PM
That car is unbelievable and the whole Tesla universe is equally impressive, unlike anything the legacy manufacturers can come close to matching. It reminded me of my first smartphone, it's like a whole different thing. I would be surprised if we ever buy a gas car or even an electric from anyone else until they get up to speed with where Tesla is. Still need the gas truck for obvious reasons, but it won't be driven nearly as much.
Kind of surprising as I thought the Tesla fanboy club was pretty obnoxious, now I'm a very reluctant member.
Clearly you’ve learned how to make it make fart noises.
Post by: Stein on November 02, 2023, 07:11:27 PM
Post by: haus on November 02, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
Anybody ask themselves why government police and emergency vehicles have not gone electric yet? :rolleyes:Availability and cost? The 2024 Blazer EV with pursuit package is the first manufacturer built to patrol spec model to hit the market so far. Several agencies have Teslas on the road, but those are field modified units.
Post by: LDennis24 on November 26, 2023, 10:54:09 AM
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRvxDeKq/
Post by: ducks4days on December 01, 2023, 02:49:00 PM
Cybertruck prices and specs have been released. 3 different models at $60k, $80k and $100k
Post by: Humptulips on December 01, 2023, 03:59:56 PM
Post by: Alchase on December 01, 2023, 07:00:31 PM
Don't look much like a truck to me. Where do I stack a load of wood?
It has a bed!
But daaaaaaamn! It is ugly!
Looks like something my kid would have drawn with crayons.
Post by: jackelope on December 01, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
Don't look much like a truck to me. Where do I stack a load of wood?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231202/29be5caf0d55bfd65a0c8af3768d3b75.jpg)
Post by: Humptulips on December 02, 2023, 12:22:05 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2023, 07:33:55 AM
Still don't see much room for firewood. Probably plenty of room for your Nordstrom purchases though.
How many people who are going to buy a Cybertruck do you think are concerned with its ability to haul a load of firewood? How much firewood can you haul in an F150 with a 5.5’ bed? How many of those have been sold worldwide over the last… I think 20 years they’ve existed?
I’m not a proponent of the cyber truck. It’s kind of ridiculous and I’ll be shocked if it’s a success, but people aren’t going to buy it for its ability to haul firewood.
For the record though, it’s got a 6’ long bed that’s 4’ wide, 67 cubic feet of volume and has a 2500 pound payload, so it’ll haul the same load of firewood that most of your full sized half ton trucks will. The 6.5’ bed on an F150 has 62.3 cubic feet of volume for comparison.
Post by: Sandberm on December 05, 2023, 10:12:02 AM
I was watching one of the latest South Main Auto videos and Eric said his brother took him into the city for a fancy dinner. They had to go to 4 parking garages before they found one that could fit their 2500 pickup. But he also mentioned that they wouldn't accept EV's. Curious on that i did an internet search and read about a parking garage that fell under too much weight, and thus the reason....I am guessing...is why some parking garages will not accept the heavier EV's. Interesting.
https://nypost.com/2023/04/19/electric-vehicles-could-put-pressure-on-parking-garages/ (https://nypost.com/2023/04/19/electric-vehicles-could-put-pressure-on-parking-garages/)
"...Chris Whapples, a structural engineer and consultant working on new regulations for multi-story garages in the UK, said officials need to understand how the rise in EVs will affect current car parks.
“I don’t want to be too alarmist, but there definitely is the potential for some of the early car parks in poor condition to collapse,” Whapples told The Telegraph.
“Operators need to be aware of electric vehicle weights, and get their car parks assessed from a strength point of view, and decide if they need to limit weight.”
The warning came less than two weeks before Tuesday’s deadly collapse at the NYC parking garage, which reportedly had active violations dating back to 2003..."
Post by: Bob33 on December 05, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
https://ctif.org/news/norwegian-shipping-company-bans-electric-cars-board-classic-ferry-route
The Norwegian shipping company Havila Kystruten will no longer allow electric cars on board its ships, according to Norwegian Television NRK. The consequences of an electric car fire are considered too severe, states the company.
...
"Toxic gases are released"
After just over a year in scheduled traffic, the shipping company Havilia is now making changes to its regulations. Going forward, electric cars, hybrid cars and also hydrogen cars will not be allowed on board.
Risk analysis found lithium batteries too risky onboard
The decision was made after an external risk analysis was made on behalf of the company. What the risk analysis found was that fires in electric cars are considered more difficult to extinguish than fires in cars powered by petrol and diesel.
"An electric car fire gets very hot, and there may be a risk of explosion where toxic gases will be released. This can mean that you have to evacuate the ship immediately and in the worst case you can have a total breakdown of the ship, says Lasse A. Vangstein who is in charge of communications at Havila Kystruten to NRK.
...
Here's an interesting video:
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 05, 2023, 12:18:11 PM
I don't imagine Inslee would do this with our ferries...
https://ctif.org/news/norwegian-shipping-company-bans-electric-cars-board-classic-ferry-route
The Norwegian shipping company Havila Kystruten will no longer allow electric cars on board its ships, according to Norwegian Television NRK. The consequences of an electric car fire are considered too severe, states the company.
...
"Toxic gases are released"
After just over a year in scheduled traffic, the shipping company Havilia is now making changes to its regulations. Going forward, electric cars, hybrid cars and also hydrogen cars will not be allowed on board.
Risk analysis found lithium batteries too risky onboard
The decision was made after an external risk analysis was made on behalf of the company. What the risk analysis found was that fires in electric cars are considered more difficult to extinguish than fires in cars powered by petrol and diesel.
"An electric car fire gets very hot, and there may be a risk of explosion where toxic gases will be released. This can mean that you have to evacuate the ship immediately and in the worst case you can have a total breakdown of the ship, says Lasse A. Vangstein who is in charge of communications at Havila Kystruten to NRK.
...
Here's an interesting video:
Good target for a Navy sinkex.😉
Post by: jackelope on December 05, 2023, 09:56:46 PM
Joe Rogan shoots arrow at Elon’s cyber truck.
Post by: Humptulips on December 06, 2023, 01:05:15 AM
Post by: salmosalar on December 06, 2023, 08:51:19 AM
The big problem is we look at it in terms of isolation. It's not EV or not, it's EV or oil for the base form of energy for transportation. So to talk about lithium mining without a similar discussion and comparison to the human rights of entire countries, say Saudi Arabia, say Iran, say Russia is not intellectually honest.
There are people pushing EV for the money. There have been people pushing oil for money for over 200 years. Nothing changes in business and politics.
What source of energy would most benefit our country? I don't think you can argue for oil. It's a global commodity price controlled by people that hate us. Technology, efficiency, performance, whatever doesn't even matter, you can't ultimately win in that system with those rules.
Once we are honest about this, it's more of a question of how to make the transition happen and there is plenty of space there to argue.
Well said.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 06, 2023, 09:19:36 AM
I often worry about taking an arrow through the door when I am out cutting wood. :archery_smiley:
Well it’s the perfect truck for you Humptulips.👍
Post by: 30.06 on December 06, 2023, 10:19:20 AM
*Faked with CGI
They will sell better on the Wet Side, I'm thinking.
Post by: logola512c on December 06, 2023, 10:36:52 AM
Tesla Robots with Thompson SMG vs. Tesla cyber truck
*Faked with CGI
They will sell better on the Wet Side, I'm thinking.
There's a real video of Joe Rogan shooting an arrow at the cyber truck, and it basically bounced off and barely left a scratch. Of course, bullets (of many calibers) and arrows might perform differently...and hopefully nobody is shooting my truck regardless. I'd be curious how the stainless steel panels fare grinding against concrete columns in parking garages, which is what happens to most of my vehicles when the wife drives them... I'd take a cyber truck if I could get one (with comparable tires) at a price less than a Tacoma off-road, but that's not where the price is lining up...
Post by: Sandberm on December 13, 2023, 07:51:41 PM
The big problem is we look at it in terms of isolation. It's not EV or not, it's EV or oil for the base form of energy for transportation. So to talk about lithium mining without a similar discussion and comparison to the human rights of entire countries, say Saudi Arabia, say Iran, say Russia is not intellectually honest.So you think its the logical next step to have us all driving EV's and its not a matter of if but when?
There are people pushing EV for the money. There have been people pushing oil for money for over 200 years. Nothing changes in business and politics.
What source of energy would most benefit our country? I don't think you can argue for oil. It's a global commodity price controlled by people that hate us. Technology, efficiency, performance, whatever doesn't even matter, you can't ultimately win in that system with those rules.
Once we are honest about this, it's more of a question of HOW TO MAKE THE TRANSITION HAPPEN and there is plenty of space there to argue.
I was watching Elons interview with Lex today and he talked of needing to TRIPLE our electricity output. He talked batteries will be a key ingredient.
Post by: jstone on December 13, 2023, 07:58:04 PM
Post by: Stein on December 13, 2023, 08:30:32 PM
The big problem is we look at it in terms of isolation. It's not EV or not, it's EV or oil for the base form of energy for transportation. So to talk about lithium mining without a similar discussion and comparison to the human rights of entire countries, say Saudi Arabia, say Iran, say Russia is not intellectually honest.So you think its the logical next step to have us all driving EV's and its not a matter of if but when?
There are people pushing EV for the money. There have been people pushing oil for money for over 200 years. Nothing changes in business and politics.
What source of energy would most benefit our country? I don't think you can argue for oil. It's a global commodity price controlled by people that hate us. Technology, efficiency, performance, whatever doesn't even matter, you can't ultimately win in that system with those rules.
Once we are honest about this, it's more of a question of HOW TO MAKE THE TRANSITION HAPPEN and there is plenty of space there to argue.
I was watching Elons interview with Lex today and he talked of needing to TRIPLE our electricity output. He talked batteries will be a key ingredient.
Yeah, I think it's inevitable. After buying one I am even more convinced. Charging is a very complex thing, I charge at 7 kw at home, 3 kw at the grocery store and 250 kw at a supercharger. Some charge at 1 kw. Very different things. 90% of the time I charge at night when there is a surplus of electricity and it's the same load as an air conditioner. Everyone is panicking, but when you think about it, look at how many new homes are being built and nobody says Hey, we can't build all these homes because they all use a bunch of electricity! Utilities make more, they are motivated to because they make more money. Electricity is easy and cheap to produce if we get out of our own way.
Gas vehicles will be around a long, long time, but EVs will gobble up new production for sure. In the US, EV sales were up something like 56% and we still have a couple weeks in the year. Model Y is already the most popular new passenger vehicle globally. When the legacy manufacturers figure out how to design and produce good EVs they will sell a bunch as well.
Cyber truck is going to have 470 miles with the extended pack, so that cracks the door open. Next, someone will build a traditional truck that works with 500 mile range and it's game on. Cars are already there today, plenty of range for just about everything.
There is certainly an argument as to how hard or if Uncle Sam should push, but guys like me are starting to pick them up and after owning one, I can't imagine buying a gas car again. In my opinion, we have already hit escape velocity and there is no going back.
Post by: bearpaw on December 14, 2023, 05:22:34 AM
https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck
Cybertruck prices and specs have been released. 3 different models at $60k, $80k and $100k
There are some pretty impressive features, this caught my eye:
Quote
ELECTRONICALLY ADAPTIVE AIR SUSPENSION THAT OFFERS 12” OF TRAVEL AND 17” OF CLEARANCE.
You can count on Elon for massive innovation. I think it's just a matter of time, before electric vehicles are suitable for more and more people. I know I don't buy any hand tools anymore that have gas or corded motors, I only buy battery powered.
Post by: Alchase on December 14, 2023, 06:55:26 AM
Ford cuts Lightening Production by 50% for 2024.
"The electric truck isn’t alone in its struggles at Ford, with the automaker also reducing some production capacity tied to its Mustang Mach-E SUV back in November. The Blue Oval also recently announced that it would be delaying some $12 billion in spending it had earmarked for EVs, citing the costs incurred during the UAW strike. Ford additionally announced that work on one of its battery plants planned for Kentucky is stalled for the time being. "
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a46104757/ford-reportedly-cutting-f-150-lightning-production-in-half/
"Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 electric vehicles it delivered to dealers in the quarter - even more than its estimated $32,350 loss per EV in the second quarter.Oct 27, 2023
During Ford's second-quarter earnings briefing in July, Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley said the company would slow the ramp-up of money-losing EVs, shifting investment to Ford's commercial vehicle unit and citing plans to quadruple sales of gas-electric hybrids over the next five years."
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-withdraws-2023-forecast-warns-ev-results-2023-10-26/
General Motors said on Tuesday it still plans to end production of the Chevrolet Bolt EV at the end of 2023. GM,
GM Abandons Goal Of Building 400,000 EVs In North America By Mid-2024
GM has announced that it is pulling back on its ambitions to build 400,000 EV units in North America by the mid-2024 calendar-year timeframe. However, The General says it is still on track to hits its goal of reaching an annual EV production capacity of 1 million EVs in North America by the end of 2025. General Motors has also detailed delays in retooling the GM Lake Orion plant in Michigan for production of the Chevy Silverado EV and GMC Sierra EV all-electric pickup trucks.
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/10/gm-abandons-goal-of-building-400000-evs-in-north-america-by-mid-2024/
Post by: Stein on December 14, 2023, 07:37:06 AM
Do people not want electric vehicles in general?
Do people not want electric trucks?
Do people not want Ford's electric truck?
Do people want all of the above, but Ford's predictions were unrealistic?
I'm sitting at the bottom two.
The Lightening has some big issues that would prevent me from buying one.
1. Most critical, Ford currently uses CCS/J1772 charging. It works well at home, but DC fast charging is hot garbage. Ford built vehicles assuming partners would install a great charging system nationwide that would allow it's customers to charge and go anywhere (similar to gas). That flat out didn't happen. Imagine a world where you went to Chevron to get gas and had to use Chevron's app to pay. You get there, all the pumps are broken except one and it dispenses 4 gallons an hour. So, you drive over to Shell and have to download their app to pay. Several of their pumps are offline, so you have to call customer service and have them reset. They come back up but pump slow like the Chevron ones. Drive to Costco, and again download their app and finally get a pump to work. That's the reality for non-Tesla EVs in the US. The only saving grace is you can charge at home and only need fast chargers for longer road trips.
Tesla saw this in advance and designed their own connector and charger and owns and operates Tesla chargers all across the country (2,000 locations and quickly growing). They all work and you don't need a ton of apps or even a credit card. Plug in, charge automatically and Tesla bills your card on file.
It's so dire for the others that Ford signed an agreement with Tesla to use their connector and allow Ford vehicles to charge on Tesla chargers. Ford paid Tesla to allow Ford customers to pay Tesla.
The problem should resolve itself in 1-2 years with Tesla profiting all the way.
2. It's maximum charge rate is 150 kW. My Tesla has a battery roughly half the size and can charge up to 250 kW. Ford's charging is way too slow. Even when they can get on Tesla Superchargers, they won't be able to fully utilize them. So, a Ford will pull up to a 250 or 350kW charger and only be able to utilize 150 of that, less than half of the newest chargers.
3. Ford's app pretty much sucks. They are not a software company, but need to become one. Like most new technology, the app is a critical piece of the system.
4. Ford (and all legacy manufacturers) are not vertically integrated. If they want to change something, add a new feature, fix something, whatever, it likely isn't a Ford engineer doing the upgrade, it's Ford negotiating with a supplier and coming up with a new contract and terms. That's cumbersome and leads to far less innovation. If they want to upgrade something like preconditioning the cabin at 70 degrees for your departure at 7 am on a cold day, they might have to negotiate with a dozen vendors - the app builder, seat manufacturer (heat), heat pump manufacturer, computer manufacturer......
This prevents Ford from making rapid improvements to their product and pushing those out to existing customers. I've owned my car for 6 week and have already got probably 5-8 new features. I wake up, get an e-mail saying Hey, here's a new feature we just installed on your car and here is how to use it. That's pretty amazing in my book, it's better than the day I bought it. With Ford, it's pretty much not going to get better than the day you bought it.
5. They are borrowing parts off other vehicles vs a ground up design. They were late to the game and needed to put something out, so they had little choice. The result is something that is sub-optimal as well as more expensive to build. New production techniques lower cost substantially, meaning Ford can't build a profitable EV using traditional methods. That can't be overcome by volume.
I'm kind of picking on Ford because they are in the news, but it's the same story at other legacy manufacturers. Chevy's bolt charges at a staggeringly slow 50 kW max, 5x slower than it should be.
For the Mustang, you have a premium priced vehicle that really doesn't do anything a mid-range priced gas vehicle does other than the drivetrain. It's more expensive than it's direct competition and not as nice as it's similarly priced counterparts.
Legacy manufacturers have a few years to get their poop in a group or they are going to be a fraction of their current size.
Post by: Humptulips on December 22, 2023, 11:48:13 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 22, 2023, 08:21:36 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 26, 2023, 12:41:11 PM
Battery costs are ridiculous.
So are 2002 7.3L powerstroke longblocks
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2023, 06:48:17 PM
I’ll betcha $67k that a Mach E battery costs more than a 7.3 long block.Battery costs are ridiculous.
So are 2002 7.3L powerstroke longblocks
I’ll double down on that to say that the dead cost with zero profit is still more than a 7.3 long block.
Ask me how I know.
Post by: Sandberm on December 27, 2023, 06:24:40 AM
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoffBoy, a person better know what the cost of buying a new battery for an EV is before they buy a used EV.
How many miles/years does the manufacturer say that original battery is supposed to last? Is it rated by time or miles?
Hmmm.
Post by: salmosalar on December 27, 2023, 08:45:29 AM
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoffBoy, a person better know what the cost of buying a new battery for an EV is before they buy a used EV.
How many miles/years does the manufacturer say that original battery is supposed to last? Is it rated by time or miles?
Hmmm.
8 years or 100,000 miles is the minimum warrantee.
There is plenty of data out there as to how many fail etc.
For the most part, you really don't need to know the cost of a replacement for a numner of reasons. The most important reason is that hey don't really fail all that often. Here is a very basic article on it from the whacky left wing Cars. com: https://www.cars.com/articles/your-guide-to-ev-batteries-premature-death-range-loss-and-preservation-446126/
I have a particularly short commute. I have considered buying a used EV. The reason being that even with a greatly reduced battery, it would be fine as a commuter for me. Everyone's scenario is different. Also, the market for refurbished batteries is just beginning and free market enterprise has a wonderful way of filling those needs. It seems like battery replacements may well come from refurbished batteries instead of new ones, greatly reducing the costs. I hope you find this helpful.
I know a number of people with EV's now. I know none that would consider going back. That is what I have seen anectodedly.
Post by: jackelope on December 27, 2023, 12:11:11 PM
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoffBoy, a person better know what the cost of buying a new battery for an EV is before they buy a used EV.
How many miles/years does the manufacturer say that original battery is supposed to last? Is it rated by time or miles?
Hmmm.
8 years or 100,000 miles is the minimum warrantee.
There is plenty of data out there as to how many fail etc.
For the most part, you really don't need to know the cost of a replacement for a numner of reasons. The most important reason is that hey don't really fail all that often. Here is a very basic article on it from the whacky left wing Cars. com: https://www.cars.com/articles/your-guide-to-ev-batteries-premature-death-range-loss-and-preservation-446126/
I have a particularly short commute. I have considered buying a used EV. The reason being that even with a greatly reduced battery, it would be fine as a commuter for me. Everyone's scenario is different. Also, the market for refurbished batteries is just beginning and free market enterprise has a wonderful way of filling those needs. It seems like battery replacements may well come from refurbished batteries instead of new ones, greatly reducing the costs. I hope you find this helpful.
I know a number of people with EV's now. I know none that would consider going back. That is what I have seen anectodedly.
While I don’t agree with all the seeming fear people have over EV’s, my shop has replaced at least 5 EV batteries so far in Mach E and Lightning. The dead nuts zero profit cost of a Mach E battery over half the retail price of the whole car.
We don’t bill them on repair orders because Ford doesn’t charge us for them, but they did on one of the first ones by accident. With our warranty parts markup and the labor, it was a $72k ticket. They eventually removed the charge for the battery so I wasn’t able to take half of the next month off.
Post by: Bob33 on December 28, 2023, 11:38:10 AM
https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/122681/firefighters-gallons-water-flaming-tesla
Alabama firefighters needed 36,000 gallons of water to extinguish a flaming Tesla Model Y SUV that fully ignited on Christmas after its driver crashed on an interstate highway.
The motorist, who authorities arrested following the crash for operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, had his electric model burst into flames due to a thermal runaway reaction within the automobile’s battery.
Thermal runaway within an electric vehicle (EV) describes a situation where the temperature of a battery’s cells increases uncontrollably, creating a self-sustaining and rapidly escalating chain reaction, possibly resulting in a fire or explosion.
...
Post by: Sandberm on December 28, 2023, 11:46:50 AM
More news about EV batteries.Holy cow...gives The China Syndrome a new meaning
https://www.the-express.com/lifestyle/cars/122681/firefighters-gallons-water-flaming-tesla
Alabama firefighters needed 36,000 gallons of water to extinguish a flaming Tesla Model Y SUV that fully ignited on Christmas after its driver crashed on an interstate highway.
The motorist, who authorities arrested following the crash for operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, had his electric model burst into flames due to a thermal runaway reaction within the automobile’s battery.
Thermal runaway within an electric vehicle (EV) describes a situation where the temperature of a battery’s cells increases uncontrollably, creating a self-sustaining and rapidly escalating chain reaction, possibly resulting in a fire or explosion.
...
Post by: Humptulips on December 28, 2023, 05:51:24 PM
Post by: MADMAX on January 15, 2024, 07:01:39 PM
No thank you
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 15, 2024, 07:38:08 PM
Over 180 EV chargers coming to Western Washington in nationwide buildout
Over $41 million in federal grants will bring over 180 electric vehicle chargers to communities across Western Washington.
The money is part of $623 million in EV charger grants announced nationwide by the Biden administration Thursday.
As part of an effort to reduce air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions from America's reliance on combustion engine cars, President Joe Biden set a goal of building out a national network of at least 500,000 electric vehicle chargers by 2030. Electric vehicle sales across the U.S. have more than quadrupled in the past few years.
Congress approved $7.5 billion in a 2021 infrastructure law aimed at meeting Biden's goal of expanding the national network of charging stations. To date, the Associated Press reported that the number of publicly available charging ports has grown by nearly 70% to 168,426.
Washington state is a leader in the electric vehicle transition. About 150,000 electric vehicles are registered in Washington, a segment of passenger vehicles that has grown sixfold in five years. While the price tag on a new or used EV is still out of reach for many, a crush of people are ditching their gasoline-powered cars.
In Washington state, the grants will add to local efforts to incentivize drivers to switch to EVs through state and federal tax credits and exemptions.
Drivers traveling between Oregon and Canada on I-5 have consistent access to charging stations, but Washington drivers have identified hundreds of additional locations across the state where they'd like to see charging stations.
For the city of Port Angeles, which is receiving about $2.1 million to install 50 chargers along Highway 101, it'll help ensure locals and tourists coming to hike, bike, swim and explore the peninsula can drive an EV and feel confident they'll have somewhere to charge up, Public Works Director Mike Healy said.
The city in 2022 resolved to reduce transportation emissions as part of its Climate Resiliency Plan. Emissions from cars, trucks and buses traveling through the city make up about two-thirds of Port Angeles' carbon footprint, the city found.
Currently, Port Angeles has about a dozen chargers at city hall, local hotels and waterfront businesses.
"We are honored to receive this award and fulfill this important project," Mayor Kate Dexter wrote in an email. "This grant will not only enhance accessibility of electric vehicles in our community, it will also contribute significantly to our City's sustainability and climate resiliency goals."
Energy Northwest received about $14.6 million to bring 40 fast chargers and 12 slower chargers to rural and Indigenous communities across Western Washington and Northern Oregon. The utility plans to build charging stations in Forks, Ilwaco, Kalaloch, Kamilche, Longview, Port Ludlow, Quilcene, Raymond, Sequim and Shelton.
Another $12 million is coming to the ports of Seattle and Tacoma to help meet their electrification goals and reduce particulate pollution that wafts into nearby communities from trucks, ships and other idling vehicles.
South Seattle has long borne the burden of hosting some of the city's biggest polluting industries, and studies in recent years have found that exposure has contributed to premature deaths, births, and more deaths caused by cancer, heart disease and chronic lower respiratory disease.
The intent is to use the money to develop one or more shared electric truck charging hubs to serve a network of about 4,500 heavy-duty trucks that provide cargo hauling services to the ports of Seattle and Tacoma.
"The thing that is encouraging is at the federal, state and local level, people have identified trucks as an important thing to address," Port of Seattle Commissioner Fred Felleman said. "On the downside, everybody wants to deal with trucks and coordination is not one of our greatest strengths."
Felleman said while clean truck technology exists, it is largely unaffordable to the independent immigrant truck driver community. He wants to focus efforts on identifying port properties that could be used to build out charging infrastructure.
Up north, the city of Mount Vernon will use $12.5 million to install nearly 80 charging ports in a public parking garage by the Skagit River and I-5. The intent is to add another 200 charging ports here in the future, according to a news release from U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell's office.
"These grants will help build out the EV charging infrastructure our state needs to reduce driving costs, lower carbon pollution, and improve the air quality at our two largest ports," Cantwell said in a statement. "More charging stations make it easier for Washingtonians to go electric and enjoy savings over the life of their cars from fueling with clean and affordable electricity instead of gasoline."
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/3296256348103-over-180-ev-chargers-coming-to-western-washington-in-nationwide-buildout?_
Post by: MADMAX on January 15, 2024, 07:43:07 PM
Too cold on the east side🥴
Post by: elksnout on January 15, 2024, 08:19:23 PM
And I swear that I recently read where Ford is cutting back production of their pickup this year?
elksnout
Post by: jstone on January 15, 2024, 08:24:40 PM
Post by: Dan-o on January 15, 2024, 08:36:28 PM
Something I’ve having a hard time wrapping my brain around is this. So I buy an EV. Ditch my perfectly solid F150 4x4. Now I’m driving my EV and someone else is driving my old F150. My brain says my bank account is way less than it was and that 2014 Ford is still drinking unleaded gas and blowing emissions out its behind. How does that even make sense? The old truck is still on the roads?? I’m neither pro or anti EV by the way.
And I swear that I recently read where Ford is cutting back production of their pickup this year?
elksnout
I think their basic plan is that as combustion engine vehicles crap out, they are replaced with EV's.
And yes, I read that Ford was cutting their E Truck production by 50!!
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 15, 2024, 08:42:52 PM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 16, 2024, 05:32:39 AM
Post by: MADMAX on January 16, 2024, 05:57:40 AM
Do those chargers cost anything to use? I just read that thing about port Angeles getting 50 of them - who pays the bill when they’re used??
They are not free
wait until the druggies figure out they have lots of copper wiring say goodbye to all those nice cords
Post by: wadu1 on January 16, 2024, 08:08:11 AM
]https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here[url] (https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here[url)[/url]
Post by: fishngamereaper on January 16, 2024, 08:15:58 AM
Do those chargers cost anything to use? I just read that thing about port Angeles getting 50 of them - who pays the bill when they’re used??
Not just PA...the whole 101 corridor out to the coast...
Which is just stupid. How about fix the roads first instead of pander to a couple dozen people that want to go to the beach driving their EV...
I drive 101, 112, 113 weekly...they all suck..
Post by: timberfaller on January 16, 2024, 09:22:42 AM
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/build-back-better-spending.946143/#post-9276580
ever wonder WHY our roads, bridges and ferry system are in the shape they are?? Not a "new shinny object"!!
Post by: jstone on January 16, 2024, 09:25:43 AM
That’s what they do. Can’t ask for money if all is going well
Post by: Bob33 on January 16, 2024, 01:24:58 PM
With temperatures bottoming out across the country, electric vehicle drivers are probably noticing their driving range plummeting. Here’s why it keeps happening – and there’s more to it than you might think.
Tests by the consumer advocacy group Consumer Reports showed that EV driving range dropped by about 25% in highway cruising, on average, in sub-freezing weather, compared to days with warmer outside temperatures.
There are two main reasons for the drop in driving range, or how far the car can go before recharging: The battery, and the driver. Both human beings and EV batteries work best within a similar temperature range, which is roughly in the mid-60s degree to mid-70s Fahrenheit, said Andy Garberson, head of marketing for EV battery research company Recurrent.
Batteries operate through chemical reactions with electrons and ions moving from one side of the battery to the other. When it gets too cold, all sorts of chemical reactions slow down, including those taking place in a battery. That means driving range is reduced.
But human beings also don’t function so well in the cold. When we’re driving on a cold day, we need to turn up the heat. That’s actually a much bigger factor in reducing EV range than the effect of temperature on the battery itself, said Garberson.
In a gasoline-powered car, turning on the heater hardly impacts fuel economy at all. That’s because gas engines make lots of heat all the time, in summer and winter. In fact, when your car burns gasoline to drive, more of the energy gets turned into waste heat than motion. Routing some of extra that heat into the cabin to keep occupants warm is no trouble at all.
Electric motors and batteries, on the other hand, produce very little waste heat. That’s part of the reason why they’re so efficient, as almost all the energy from the batteries is used for driving. But when the cabin needs heating, the energy used for that gets subtracted from the miles that can be driven. That means driving range can drop considerably.
In Consumer Reports’ EV tests, taking lots of short trips made things substantially worse. Every time the vehicle stopped and the cabin cooled down it had be reheated again when the vehicle started, sapping more energy, and doubling the amount of range lost.
Fortunately, most newer EV models have very efficient heat pump heating systems that help minimize the impact. But even those systems have their limits, and don’t work well when temperatures drop below about 14 degrees Fahrenheit, said Garberson.
“They’re considerably more efficient for heating, whether it’s your house or your water heater or your car, so you’re just drawing less energy to heat your cabin,” he said.
Still, heating the cabin causes substantial range losses, he said.
EV charging times are longer when the temperature is cold. Charging, just like discharging –or powering the car – is a chemical reaction that’s slowed down when temperatures drop. In fact, some electric vehicles will greatly slow down their maximum fast charging in very cold weather to prevent battery damage.
Fortunately, most newer EVs have sophisticated temperature management systems that work to keep the battery pack close to its ideal temperature, said Garberson. If a driver puts an EV fast charger as their destination in the navigation system, the car will prepare itself.
“If you’re in cold weather, it’s actually going to activate the thermal management to heat up that battery,” he said. “And so the goal would be by the time you get to the charger, the battery is warm enough that it doesn’t matter what the temperature is outside.”
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/16/business/why-evs-dont-go-as-far-in-the-freezing-cold/index.html