Post by: CP on August 23, 2023, 02:43:35 PM
Post by: birdshooter1189 on August 23, 2023, 03:16:19 PM
In my opinion, it is then a bolt action rifle since it requires you to manually operate the bolt between each shot.
If adding certain parts to make it shoot full auto turns it into a machine gun, then it seems like removing certain parts to require manual bolt operation turns it into a bolt action rifle.
Post by: buckfvr on August 23, 2023, 05:02:25 PM
Thats also why its illegal to alter weapons. Not modify or customize but alter.
Post by: timberghost72 on August 23, 2023, 05:53:02 PM
https://kalikey.com/
State by state info
https://kalikey.com/information/legal/
Post by: dreadi on August 23, 2023, 09:15:03 PM
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
Post by: HillHound on August 23, 2023, 10:12:32 PM
I will leave it at that, it’s too late for me to be commenting
Post by: jackelope on August 23, 2023, 10:45:23 PM
Take a frame…physically the same frame… with a rifle serial number on it and put a pistol barrel on it and it’s now an SBR.
Post by: Special T on August 24, 2023, 12:53:00 AM
Post by: Alchase on August 24, 2023, 07:36:15 AM
I believe it identifies categorically by its serial number no matter what you do to it.
Thats also why its illegal to alter weapons. Not modify or customize but alter.
Identified by the serial number and what the "lower or frame" was sold as.
What if you bought it as an stripped lower? It falls in the "Other" category so what it was originally sold as is a blank receiver.
It would be a "pistol" once it is built as long as you do not start it with a stock or a VFG on it. And barrel length would not matter.
Once it starts out as a "pistol" you can convert it to a rifle by putting a stock on it, and a VFG as long as the barrel as 16" or longer. If the barrel is less then 16", you would have to register it as a SBR.
And you could switch it back to a pistol if you wish.
If you start with a lower sold as a "rifle", it will always be a rifle.
If you start with a lower sold as a "pistol", you can make it a pistol, then a rifle, and back to pistol as you wish.
If you start with a lower sold as "other", you can build anything you want.
FYI - what I posted was according to current federal law (or more correctly, AFT mandate ), not Washington state law.
Post by: dreadi on August 24, 2023, 09:01:23 AM
What if you bought it as an stripped lower? It falls in the "Other" category so what it was originally sold as is a blank receiver.An AR stripped lower is still an AR.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
Post by: Caseyd on August 24, 2023, 10:34:01 AM
Hypothetically, :rolleyes: say someone has a side charging AR upper, and a stripped lower. If that person removed the gas tube and plugged the gas port, then assembled the rifle, is that now a bolt action rifle or is it an evil assault rifle and subject to all the applicable evil rifle laws?
Short and simple, it’s still an AR.
Law states all AR variants. At this time it’s believed you can’t even build a bolt action AR without violating the law.
Post by: birdshooter1189 on August 24, 2023, 01:31:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the intent of the law was to ban semi auto rifles that look black and scary. In that context, semi-auto function is a core aspect of what makes it an AR.
There are bolt action rifles that accept AR handgrips, stocks, and other furniture. I'm pretty certian these are not "AR variants" because the core mechanism operates as a bolt action.
I also wonder if you were to build your own lower, stamp it as a bolt action receiver, and then assemble it as stated in the original post, if that would be deemed acceptable according to the law.
As an engineer, I see it as "call it based on how it operates". There are bolt guns that have furniture to look like AR's, and some AR's have furniture similar to bolt guns. But you still call them based on how they operate, and how they were designed to operate. (And maybe that last part is the key) We could also ask the question, if you take parts that were designed to operate as a semi-auto, but you, as the builder, assemble it in a way that only functions as a bolt action, have you effectively re-designed it as a bolt action?
Post by: Wazukie on August 24, 2023, 01:56:46 PM
Post by: ducks4days on August 24, 2023, 02:28:42 PM
Isn't one of the requirenments of an "Assult Weapon" is that it has a "removable" magazine? If an AR style rifle does not have a removable magazine, which many south of us do not, then is it still an Assualt Weapon?
The definition will be applied as the state sees fit to achieve their goals
Post by: Parasite on August 28, 2023, 06:02:03 AM
Post by: Alchase on August 28, 2023, 06:28:51 PM
legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Post by: Stein on August 28, 2023, 07:57:11 PM
They also define assault weapons and that definition wouldn't fit the modification as it's not a semi-automatic rifle any longer. Whether you can have a temporary modification to prevent semi-auto operation or not isn't clear.
Post by: dreadi on August 28, 2023, 08:00:23 PM
legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Post by: Alchase on August 29, 2023, 10:45:19 AM
legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Interesting, I would have never thought of it.
Thank you
Seems like it would be more efficient to just suppress a bolt action.
Post by: ducks4days on August 29, 2023, 12:56:11 PM
legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Interesting, I would have never thought of it.
Thank you
Seems like it would be more efficient to just suppress a bolt action.
I dream of a day where I have a gun for every combination of caliber / function / purpose that i can find. I would need to buy a storage container to put them all in which would be an awesome problem to have.
For those like me and probably you who dont have that problem, I could see the utility in swapping uppers, or even just a gas block to change between quiet bolt action and semi-auto lead spitter without committing my wallet to two completely different platforms.
Post by: dreadi on August 29, 2023, 01:25:56 PM
You’re welcome.legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Interesting, I would have never thought of it.
Thank you
Seems like it would be more efficient to just suppress a bolt action.
Financially it can be a better option to use an adjustable gas block, for example, your caliber of choice isn’t not commercially available in a bolt gun.
Custom bolt gun vs off the shelf part price difference is BIGLY.
However, if I could have a $500-$600 6.8 SPC bolt gun, I would buy that instead of getting an adjustable gas block my semiauto.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
Post by: fly-by on August 29, 2023, 02:06:26 PM
Strange this topic came up as I just took delivery of a Troy PAR and am looking at a couple of places that make 300 WSM barrels. Will be pleasantly surprised if they will build one without a gas port and ship it to WA.
Post by: dreadi on August 29, 2023, 02:35:33 PM
I know y'all read the hunting regs....it's time to read HB1240 and the surrounding RCWs as well.
Here's a link for your commodious contemplation https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/House/1240-S.SL.pdf?q=20230829143353 (https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/House/1240-S.SL.pdf?q=20230829143353)
Post by: Alchase on August 29, 2023, 07:14:33 PM
legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Interesting, I would have never thought of it.
Thank you
Seems like it would be more efficient to just suppress a bolt action.
I dream of a day where I have a gun for every combination of caliber / function / purpose that i can find. I would need to buy a storage container to put them all in which would be an awesome problem to have.
For those like me and probably you who dont have that problem, I could see the utility in swapping uppers, or even just a gas block to change between quiet bolt action and semi-auto lead spitter without committing my wallet to two completely different platforms.
Good point, I learn something every day!
You are right, I would just have another upper, but understand that option may not be viable for many.
You’re welcome.legality aside ... when i had my gas port completely closed on my AR ... the bolt locked up something fierce when i fired it. took a lot of pounding to open the bolt.
My curiosity is peaked!
Why would you shoot your rifles with your gas port completely closed :dunno:
Your buffer and spring would not be able to function correctly.
Turns your semiauto into a manual auto straight pull. Combined with a suppressor, it's the quietest a person can make the platform.
Interesting, I would have never thought of it.
Thank you
Seems like it would be more efficient to just suppress a bolt action.
Financially it can be a better option to use an adjustable gas block, for example, your caliber of choice isn’t not commercially available in a bolt gun.
Custom bolt gun vs off the shelf part price difference is BIGLY.
However, if I could have a $500-$600 6.8 SPC bolt gun, I would buy that instead of getting an adjustable gas block my semiauto.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
https://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms
Good points :tup: