Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2023, 11:46:29 AM
"The case came as the bald eagle, whose resurgence is considered one of the greatest conservation stories of the 21st century, faces a new threat: lead poisoning.
All but a few hundred bald eagles were presumed dead by the mid-20th century, killed off largely by the widespread use of the synthetic insecticide DDT. A ban on DDT in 1972 and conservation efforts helped the bird’s population to rebound. The bald eagle was removed from Endangered Species Act protection in 2007, and its estimated population had increased to 316,700 by 2019.
But researchers found last year that of the 1,200 eagles they tested, nearly half had been exposed repeatedly to lead, which can lead to death and slow population growth. Scientists believe that the primary source of the lead is spent ammunition from hunters, who shoot animals that the eagles then scavenge."
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation/wa-man-hunted-eagles-in-illegal-killing-spree-u-s-says/
Post by: Platensek-po on December 14, 2023, 11:57:54 AM
Post by: Southpole on December 14, 2023, 12:08:54 PM
Post by: hunter399 on December 14, 2023, 12:09:15 PM
California has had a lead ban for awhile I believe.
The condors or whatever started the movement,as they found them dead with lead poisoning.
Plus we always follow California here in Washington.
No surprise there.
Pricing people out, probably not.
Company's that make all copper bullets will benefit,most companies that still sell traditional cup and lead core all have a copper line of bullets.
With all that.
It's kinda of a hassle on the reloader,and stock pile of lead bullets most reloader have in hand.
Work up a new load all that.
Long,long range shooters won't like it.
Cooper doesn't expand well when MV dips below a certain level.
Advantage and disadvantage all that.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2023, 12:48:57 PM
What animals are hunters walking away from with so much lead still left inside for an eagle to eat, coyotes, a grouse that got away? Another stupid angle by the antis. What about those windmills killing birds?Many hunters leave gut piles and carcasses from animals they've killed. They may contain lead shrapnel.
Post by: buckfvr on December 14, 2023, 01:27:57 PM
Post by: Southpole on December 14, 2023, 02:07:03 PM
I get that but I guess I just never would have thought gut piles from rifle hunters as being a problem towards eagles death. There’s probably 20 other larger reasons why a bird of prey would prematurely die, I’m thinking lead is way down the list. It’s just another tool in the box for anti hunter arguments.What animals are hunters walking away from with so much lead still left inside for an eagle to eat, coyotes, a grouse that got away? Another stupid angle by the antis. What about those windmills killing birds?Many hunters leave gut piles and carcasses from animals they've killed. They may contain lead shrapnel.
Post by: huntnphool on December 14, 2023, 02:35:48 PM
Bullets either pass all the way through, or are generally found by the hunters against the hide. “If” there are any “fragments” left, I seriously the doubt the birds are chewing them up and swallowing them. :twocents:
Post by: timberfaller on December 14, 2023, 02:44:53 PM
I wonder WHO is putting lead into the reports??? Remember the "Lynx hair" years ago planted by the USFS?? Then there is the years when the "lead ban" first got its roots, Of ALL Bald Eagles those years, NO bird was found to have lead in them. They found just one with duck meat in its stomach and a single pellet BUT it died when it hit a power line going over the Cascades to power up Seattle.
Remember Pres Reagan, "hello, I am from the government and I am here to help" Riiiiiiight!!
Post by: Smokeploe on December 14, 2023, 03:28:09 PM
Smokeploe
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 14, 2023, 04:42:15 PM
Did Sperm whales get lead in their bodies from eating carcasses hunters left in the woods that contained bullet fragments? https://whale.org/new-study-reveals-levels-lead-sperm-whales/
Meanwhile, we have these idiots.
https://www.newsweek.com/duo-poached-bald-eagles-killing-spree-3600-birds-doj-1851492
Post by: duckmen1 on December 14, 2023, 04:56:44 PM
Post by: slavenoid on December 14, 2023, 05:31:14 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 14, 2023, 05:41:56 PM
Post by: Southpole on December 14, 2023, 05:58:58 PM
What a crock of BS, and shame on those of you falling for it!That’s what I thought as well. About 80% of the time I find my bullet somewhere under the skin or it blew out the other side. I remember reading an article about 15 years-ish ago about lead being a health concern for hunters and it contaminating big game meat.
Bullets either pass all the way through, or are generally found by the hunters against the hide. “If” there are any “fragments” left, I seriously the doubt the birds are chewing them up and swallowing them. :twocents:
Post by: Platensek-po on December 14, 2023, 06:22:12 PM
What a crock of BS, and shame on those of you falling for it!That’s what I thought as well. About 80% of the time I find my bullet somewhere under the skin or it blew out the other side. I remember reading an article about 15 years-ish ago about lead being a health concern for hunters and it contaminating big game meat.
Bullets either pass all the way through, or are generally found by the hunters against the hide. “If” there are any “fragments” left, I seriously the doubt the birds are chewing them up and swallowing them. :twocents:
It’s explained pretty well here.
https://www.boone-crockett.org/lead-hunting-ammunition
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 14, 2023, 07:40:07 PM
I've also read where all the birds have been taking "dust baths" in dried ponds. The dust cleans off parasites and then the birds preen their feathers and ingest the dust. The condor zone has tons of old ponds at mine sites/tailing pools. These sites have high levels of lead, zinc, cadmium, and mercury(for the gold mines). The birds found dead of lead poisoning had elevated levels of those other heavy metals too.
I don't think those other metals are being left in gut piles from hunters.
I'm not saying lead is good for them or any creature. I'm just wondering how much of all this is really from old mining operations and the companies don't want to pay for remediation so hunters are the scapegoats.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2023, 07:45:24 PM
For the case of the California condor, the deaths and lead levels in birds didn't really change pre/post ban from what I remember. Hunters had a 95% or better compliance rate. Should have been a corresponding decline in sick birds. The claim then, was that the birds were getting the lead from gut piles in Nevada where there wasn't a ban.From the Boone & Crockett article linked earlier:
I've also read where all the birds have been taking "dust baths" in dried ponds. The dust cleans off parasites and then the birds preen their feathers and ingest the dust. The condor zone has tons of old ponds at mine sites/tailing pools. These sites have high levels of lead, zinc, cadmium, and mercury(for the gold mines). The birds found dead of lead poisoning had elevated levels of those other heavy metals too.
I don't think those other metals are being left in gut piles from hunters.
I'm not saying lead is good for them or any creature. I'm just wondering how much of all this is really from old mining operations and the companies don't want to pay for remediation so hunters are the scapegoats.
Although some are still skeptical that bullets are the source of lead in condors, it is compelling that condor blood lead levels spike during and following big-game hunting seasons in their range. Also, ammunition residues (intact bullets, fragments or lead shot) were found in 27 of 40 cases of lead-caused condor deaths in Arizona and Utah. Similar elevated blood levels have been documented in golden eagles, ravens and crows around hunting seasons, though crows don’t seem to be affected by elevated lead levels like other species.
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 14, 2023, 08:25:28 PM
Can’t speak on the condors but I can say there are no shortage of eagles around matter of fact it seems like they are absolutely everywhere
:yeah: They are a absolute pain in the arse for us during calving season. I have seen 10-15 at a time dive bombing our cows and calves. Damn things are worse than wolves....
In Alaska they are thick like seaguls. Doesn't hurt my feelings to keep the bald eagle population in check.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 14, 2023, 10:05:01 PM
Post by: Jake Dogfish on December 14, 2023, 10:36:38 PM
I’m all for getting lead out of the environment. :tup:
Post by: huntnphool on December 14, 2023, 10:52:33 PM
“ Wildlife Exposure
We know that fragments of lead bullets are left in gut piles and scraps and are then inadvertently eaten by scavenging wildlife. This is not a concern for mammals because it passes through them rapidly, but because birds have a different type of digestive tract, they absorb much more of the lead they consume. Work on grizzly bears has shown elevated lead blood levels, but no adverse effects have been detected. Research leaves no doubt, however, that lead fragments consumed by raptors can be lethal.
The California condor has been front and center in this conversation because of the condor’s endangered status and the fact they exist in relatively low numbers. Every death is a significant drain on the population. In the California Condor Recovery Program, each bird is numbered and monitored extensively. They are trapped, and their blood levels are monitored throughout the year. Besides blood level monitoring, they also undergo isotope analysis to try to identify the source of the lead. Lead that is found in their blood is analyzed and the signature it returns is recycled lead. This means they are not picking it up from natural sources. Indeed, there are other forms of recycled lead that have been identified as a potential source (in one case a lead paint source was identified).
Although some are still skeptical that bullets are the source of lead in condors, it is compelling that condor blood lead levels spike during and following big-game hunting seasons in their range. Also, ammunition residues (intact bullets, fragments or lead shot) were found in 27 of 40 cases of lead-caused condor deaths in Arizona and Utah. Similar elevated blood levels have been documented in golden eagles, ravens and crows around hunting seasons, though crows don’t seem to be affected by elevated lead levels like other species. The smoking gun for me was the golden eagle that was reported by Yellowstone officials in April of 2019 that died of acute lead poisoning which through analysis they found most likely consumed lead fragments in gut piles and carcasses left afield.”
Post by: huntnphool on December 14, 2023, 10:57:56 PM
Are you rubes falling for this BS telling me my 42 year old parrot is more intelligent than a bald eagle, condor, golden eagle…etc? :chuckle:
Post by: slavenoid on December 15, 2023, 12:27:54 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 15, 2023, 05:39:58 AM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 15, 2023, 06:23:35 AM
I have my doubts about deer and elk gut piles or other cervids. How many people aim for the guts. And if they accidently hit them in the guts, gut shots are usually pass throughs. I would think most lead from carcasses would be predators where whole carcasses get left in the woods. Or lead shot from small game or upland birds.
They have done mortality studies and find that there can be lead fragments up to 18in away from the wound channel.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 15, 2023, 06:24:33 AM
More likely to get the lead from the salmon they eat than a gut pile.
Really? Bald eagles in Wyoming and Montana are getting lead poisoning from salmon? Please explain.
Post by: huntnphool on December 16, 2023, 11:14:04 PM
More likely to get the lead from the salmon they eat than a gut pile.
Really? Bald eagles in Wyoming and Montana are getting lead poisoning from salmon? Please explain.
Post up the study with results that show Wyoming and Montana eagles are being poisoned by lead!
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 06:19:53 AM
Already did in this thread…literally the first golden eagle with a tracker on it in montana died of lead poisoning from scavenging gut piles.More likely to get the lead from the salmon they eat than a gut pile.
Really? Bald eagles in Wyoming and Montana are getting lead poisoning from salmon? Please explain.
Post up the study with results that show Wyoming and Montana eagles are being poisoned by lead!
https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/news/19010.htm
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 17, 2023, 06:32:12 AM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 09:02:59 AM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 09:04:17 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2023, 09:27:16 AM
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 09:49:55 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.Have you looked at any of the necropsy investigations. It's not elevated levels in the blood from environment its nearly always literally a chunk of lead or lead shot.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 09:51:57 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
Then why do lead levels in eagles spike in fall and winter? When they are feeding on gut piles. Eagles and ravens have higher acid levels in their stomach and don’t pass the lead as quickly as mammals. Again if it’s related to fish then why golden eagles? Bald eagles in Minnesota? Does anyone even bother to look at the study??
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 09:53:07 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
They also say that lead levels in grizzlies spike but it’s not as big of an issue for them and they are also an 400-800lb animal vs a 12-15lb.
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2023, 10:10:44 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.Have you looked at any of the necropsy investigations. It's not elevated levels in the blood from environment its nearly always literally a chunk of lead or lead shot.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
The studies I've read literally said the data is from liver blood and feather samples. Half the birds where living at the time of testing.
Always a junk of lead? Provide the study your referring to..I'm curious.
Eating gut piles is an assumption is it not. No proof....
Is it also a possibility that Eagle's are being shot at but surviving. Farmer's, poachers, kids with pellet guns...etc.
I just think it's narrow minded to cast hunter's and gut piles as the culprit whens lots of other factors should be considered...
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 10:15:16 AM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 10:18:19 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.Have you looked at any of the necropsy investigations. It's not elevated levels in the blood from environment its nearly always literally a chunk of lead or lead shot.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
The studies I've read literally said the data is from liver blood and feather samples. Half the birds where living at the time of testing.
Always a junk of lead? Provide the study your referring to..I'm curious.
Eating gut piles is an assumption is it not. No proof....
Is it also a possibility that Eagle's are being shot at but surviving. Farmer's, poachers, kids with pellet guns...etc.
I just think it's narrow minded to cast hunter's and gut piles as the culprit whens lots of other factors should be considered...
No proof?? The studies literally show the birds are eating gut piles as evidenced by what’s in their guts. They find them with animals guts and lead from ammunition. It’s in the study I posted. Did you actually read it? The ones making assumptions are you guys, it’s from drinking water, eating fish, being shot etc. all stuff of which their is literally no proof. Their is proof however that they are consuming lead from gut piles. Again you can shove your head in the sand and scream lalalalala all you want. All over having to spend .50c more on a non toxic bullet. If you could avoid poisoning eagles why not? Again it’s your choice but please stop with the wild guesses when the proof is literally right there. This thread has literally every wild guess and assumption possible from people who refuse to read the study in front of them. Heck some people even said it’s ok that we are poisoning them cause there a lot. So either we are a group that cares about the environment and want be responsible stewards are we just don’t care and want to kill as cheaply as possible with no regard for further consequences.
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2023, 10:20:10 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
Then why do lead levels in eagles spike in fall and winter? When they are feeding on gut piles. Eagles and ravens have higher acid levels in their stomach and don’t pass the lead as quickly as mammals. Again if it’s related to fish then why golden eagles? Bald eagles in Minnesota? Does anyone even bother to look at the study??
Yes Ive read a few studies...
Besides fall and winter being spawning season it's also the wet season and being so seasonal runoff increases into river's streams and lakes. Increased run off increases toxin levels in the water.
See I can be scientific to.
Did a few Eagles maybe eat a guy pile with a junk of leftover frag..
Possibly.
Are there hundreds of other possibilities... Yes.
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 10:27:17 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 17, 2023, 10:27:45 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.Have you looked at any of the necropsy investigations. It's not elevated levels in the blood from environment its nearly always literally a chunk of lead or lead shot.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
The studies I've read literally said the data is from liver blood and feather samples. Half the birds where living at the time of testing.
Always a junk of lead? Provide the study your referring to..I'm curious.
Eating gut piles is an assumption is it not. No proof....
Is it also a possibility that Eagle's are being shot at but surviving. Farmer's, poachers, kids with pellet guns...etc.
I just think it's narrow minded to cast hunter's and gut piles as the culprit whens lots of other factors should be considered...
No proof?? The studies literally show the birds are eating gut piles as evidenced by what’s in their guts. They find them with animals guts and lead from ammunition. It’s in the study I posted. Did you actually read it? The ones making assumptions are you guys, it’s from drinking water, eating fish, being shot etc. all stuff of which their is literally no proof. Their is proof however that they are consuming lead from gut piles. Again you can shove your head in the sand and scream lalalalala all you want. All over having to spend .50c more on a non toxic bullet. If you could avoid poisoning eagles why not? Again it’s your choice but please stop with the wild guesses when the proof is literally right there. This thread has literally every wild guess and assumption possible from people who refuse to read the study in front of them. Heck some people even said it’s ok that we are poisoning them cause there a lot. So either we are a group that cares about the environment and want be responsible stewards are we just don’t care and want to kill as cheaply as possible with no regard for further consequences.
Take a deep breath man....don't attack me I'm not attacking you....
I've never said I love my lead bullets.
I'm just tired of hunters, hunting, guns etc being the primary focus of issues that have hundreds of other possible and probable causations that aren't being addressed...
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 10:34:12 AM
If Eagles are dieing from lead ingested from gut plies why aren't coyotes, Ravens, etc...any studies on them.Have you looked at any of the necropsy investigations. It's not elevated levels in the blood from environment its nearly always literally a chunk of lead or lead shot.
I don't doubt Eagle's are showing levels of lead but it's more likely related to fish they eat than gut piles. The amount of lead present in our waters due to run off, old building methods etc is more of a problem than a frag in a random gut pile.
It's just easier and convenient to blame hunting.
The studies I've read literally said the data is from liver blood and feather samples. Half the birds where living at the time of testing.
Always a junk of lead? Provide the study your referring to..I'm curious.
Eating gut piles is an assumption is it not. No proof....
Is it also a possibility that Eagle's are being shot at but surviving. Farmer's, poachers, kids with pellet guns...etc.
I just think it's narrow minded to cast hunter's and gut piles as the culprit whens lots of other factors should be considered...
No proof?? The studies literally show the birds are eating gut piles as evidenced by what’s in their guts. They find them with animals guts and lead from ammunition. It’s in the study I posted. Did you actually read it? The ones making assumptions are you guys, it’s from drinking water, eating fish, being shot etc. all stuff of which their is literally no proof. Their is proof however that they are consuming lead from gut piles. Again you can shove your head in the sand and scream lalalalala all you want. All over having to spend .50c more on a non toxic bullet. If you could avoid poisoning eagles why not? Again it’s your choice but please stop with the wild guesses when the proof is literally right there. This thread has literally every wild guess and assumption possible from people who refuse to read the study in front of them. Heck some people even said it’s ok that we are poisoning them cause there a lot. So either we are a group that cares about the environment and want be responsible stewards are we just don’t care and want to kill as cheaply as possible with no regard for further consequences.
Take a deep breath man....don't attack me I'm not attacking you....
I've never said I love my lead bullets.
I'm just tired of hunters, hunting, guns etc being the primary focus of issues that have hundreds of other possible and probable causations that aren't being addressed...
Sure but it’s super simple for hunters to remove themselves from the equation. So if we can then why not? We literally shout that hunting is conservation. You have other members on here saying that they literally don’t care about killing a few eagles cause there are lots. How does that look for the antis? How does that look to the population on the fence? We can make a simple easy change and make sure we are in no way the problem. Then if it keeps happening then the focus will have to go elsewhere. I would rather see hunters make the change to non toxic ammo for hunting whenever possible because they want to be sure they are not poisoning birds. Even if it’s not sure we are.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 17, 2023, 12:27:24 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 17, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Post by: buckfvr on December 17, 2023, 01:24:40 PM
:dunno:
Another move or two and the king is surrounded.
Post by: MADMAX on December 17, 2023, 02:27:41 PM
A fine Washington turd involved
https://www.foxnews.com/us/killing-spree-two-men-charged-slaying-bald-eagles-selling-body-parts-profit
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 02:36:31 PM
What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Another person who failed to read the study. It’s not an emergency. Literally their populations are still increasing. But it is killing eagles. So again if you fine with the fact that you may be poisoning eagles go right on ahead. But then don’t go telling the commission to follow the science or say that you for conservation practices.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 02:38:48 PM
So what happens when all the hunters want (are required to use) lead free bullets and ammo when there is but a small percentage of lead free available compared to that with lead ? Less manufacturers, less supply, cant hardly get what we want now, so imagine it 10X worse, probably much higher.
:dunno:
Another move or two and the king is surrounded.
Seems like an easy class in economics here. If demand increases supply will also have to increase. If hunters are required to purchase copper, something I doubt will happen, then more and more ammo suppliers will provide non toxic ammo. Kind of like with waterfowl ammo. Seeing it now as more and more options for lead free bullets come out.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 17, 2023, 02:57:28 PM
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 03:08:50 PM
What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.You realize there is generations of lead still presenting problems and killing birds, right?
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Post by: buckfvr on December 17, 2023, 03:35:15 PM
So what happens when all the hunters want (are required to use) lead free bullets and ammo when there is but a small percentage of lead free available compared to that with lead ? Less manufacturers, less supply, cant hardly get what we want now, so imagine it 10X worse, probably much higher.
:dunno:
Another move or two and the king is surrounded.
Seems like an easy class in economics here. If demand increases supply will also have to increase. If hunters are required to purchase copper, something I doubt will happen, then more and more ammo suppliers will provide non toxic ammo. Kind of like with waterfowl ammo. Seeing it now as more and more options for lead free bullets come out.
Your easy class in economics is hugely optimistic considering your glass half full outlook is in danger of being kicked over by the many people outside of the hunting circle.
Post by: Bob33 on December 17, 2023, 05:09:31 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 17, 2023, 05:10:17 PM
So lead shot and bullets from the 70's are still killing birds? Am I reading that correctly?What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.You realize there is generations of lead still presenting problems and killing birds, right?
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 17, 2023, 05:13:33 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 17, 2023, 05:18:20 PM
What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Another person who failed to read the study. It’s not an emergency. Literally their populations are still increasing. But it is killing eagles. So again if you fine with the fact that you may be poisoning eagles go right on ahead. But then don’t go telling the commission to follow the science or say that you for conservation practices.
Failed to read they study....Hmmm. I actually went far beyond the article in my research and realized this is a big freakout with alarmist type groups pushing it.
I guess I'm ok with poisining eagles..... :dunno: BTW....I think you should drive a EV, only when hunting though.
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 05:19:22 PM
Post by: slavenoid on December 17, 2023, 08:21:25 PM
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4V0FnAuHrjmNUqxhV4KLuc?si=LypQ64vhQniKMdDciYYpeA
Meat Eater podcast had the same guest. Episode 354
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2dEwXj9UdJxinrOFZl8gcd?si=uOdi-4R2TMCLd629B4ewCg
Post by: Tbar on December 17, 2023, 10:32:43 PM
Randy Newberg had a podcast that opened my eyes a while back. Hunt Talk Radio Episode 87Good info here. Thanks for posting.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4V0FnAuHrjmNUqxhV4KLuc?si=LypQ64vhQniKMdDciYYpeA
Meat Eater podcast had the same guest. Episode 354
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2dEwXj9UdJxinrOFZl8gcd?si=uOdi-4R2TMCLd629B4ewCg
Post by: Humptulips on December 17, 2023, 11:27:52 PM
Beyond waterfowl is this true and too which species? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.You realize there is generations of lead still presenting problems and killing birds, right?
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Post by: Tbar on December 18, 2023, 07:34:38 AM
For legacy lead, you are correct. It is tracked in swans currently.Beyond waterfowl is this true and too which species? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.You realize there is generations of lead still presenting problems and killing birds, right?
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Post by: huntnphool on December 18, 2023, 09:49:15 PM
That was one golden eagle. Which was probably singled out to fit one groups agenda.
Literally one eagle, the other link does not mention Montana or Wyoming being the area of the study.
Again, I’ll give you the opportunity to post up the study that proves all of this…waiting! :rolleyes:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 18, 2023, 11:25:49 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 19, 2023, 07:44:52 AM
That was one golden eagle. Which was probably singled out to fit one groups agenda.
Literally one eagle, the other link does not mention Montana or Wyoming being the area of the study.
Again, I’ll give you the opportunity to post up the study that proves all of this…waiting! :rolleyes:
Why? I already posted the study by the USGS that took samples from over 1200 eagles across the country. I actually posted it twice.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj3068
Here is a link to the published article in science.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 19, 2023, 07:46:06 AM
That was one golden eagle. Which was probably singled out to fit one groups agenda.
Literally one eagle, the other link does not mention Montana or Wyoming being the area of the study.
Again, I’ll give you the opportunity to post up the study that proves all of this…waiting! :rolleyes:
A study done on eagles in the Yellowstone ecosystem.
https://science.peregrinefund.org/legacy-sites/conference-lead/PDF/0209%20Bedrosian.pdf
Post by: Platensek-po on December 19, 2023, 09:03:34 AM
What if we back up and realize for generations we have been hunting with lead. Then go way forward to the 70’s when steel came out. Then even farther with the feds mandating steel in 1987. Since then we have outlawed lead from shot to fishing weights. Now a sudden emergency, lead is killing everything. I would like to point out the coincidence of anti hunting push with this new emergency. None of this passes the common sense test. This is all a bunch of BS to me.
BTW just looked up our beloved eagle population has exploded since the 60”s. They have even been removed from the endangered list. The alarmist are wrong....
Another person who failed to read the study. It’s not an emergency. Literally their populations are still increasing. But it is killing eagles. So again if you fine with the fact that you may be poisoning eagles go right on ahead. But then don’t go telling the commission to follow the science or say that you for conservation practices.
Failed to read they study....Hmmm. I actually went far beyond the article in my research and realized this is a big freakout with alarmist type groups pushing it.
I guess I'm ok with poisining eagles..... :dunno: BTW....I think you should drive a EV, only when hunting though.
Feel free to share what parts of the study failed to prove to you that eagles are being poisoned by lead. Maybe you found a different study that proves something else? All I have seen to try and discredit these studies are wild speculations as to what could be other sources of lead contamination, without proof for a single one, and justifications for the poisoning (lots of eagles, who cares) and conspiracyy theories that this is driven to get people to stop hunting or shooting (even when it’s said shoot lead all you want for practice and copper bullets are everywhere). Not one person has put up a scientific study proving anything other than that eagles are being poisoned by lead ammunition in gut piles. Again if you have real information that states otherwise please share, or share what you found in your extended research that you found concerning or un truthful about the studies posted.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 19, 2023, 09:10:54 AM
So, for the condors, if they have the same amount of deaths after the lead ban as before, and attribute it to birds migrating to Nevada and Arizona during hunting season; then California can reverse the ban and let folks choose what works best for them.
Arizona has a program to provide copper ammo to hunters that draw certain tags in areas with condors.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 19, 2023, 09:16:30 AM
Post by: Bob33 on December 19, 2023, 09:20:20 AM
https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wsb.1448