Post by: Cougeyes on February 22, 2024, 05:04:37 PM
Post by: jrebel on February 22, 2024, 05:15:15 PM
Post by: Dan-o on February 22, 2024, 05:36:33 PM
As we age, our eyes ability to focus at multiple lengths diminishes (loss of dynamic range).
20 years ago, I could easily focus on my sights AND an elk at 60 yards.
Now I get to choose which one to focus on......
A 1X scope solves that for old coots like me.
Post by: wadu1 on February 22, 2024, 05:39:56 PM
Huge benefit for many of us.:yeah:
As we age, our eyes ability to focus at multiple lengths diminishes (loss of dynamic range).
20 years ago, I could easily focus on my sights AND an elk at 60 yards.
Now I get to choose which one to focus on......
A 1X scope solves that for old coots like me.
The only issue I've had was a blurry blob in the scope from the front sight.
Post by: ghosthunter on February 22, 2024, 06:01:33 PM
Post by: Tenkara on February 22, 2024, 06:16:06 PM
Post by: Alan K on February 22, 2024, 06:26:39 PM
Post by: Hairhunter on February 22, 2024, 06:31:11 PM
Post by: highside74 on February 22, 2024, 06:44:24 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 22, 2024, 06:47:24 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on February 22, 2024, 06:51:54 PM
Post by: 85yota on February 22, 2024, 07:22:09 PM
I wonder if the number of applicants will go up much for muzzy if this goes through?
Absolutely.. the old days of no fiber optics disappeared, apps increased, allowing archery during muzzy, apps increased, allowing sabots, increase, allowing inline but exposed to weather, apps increased, fully sealed breech and 209 primers, muzzy hunting increased significantly.. if this happens, apps will increase.. what once was a great, but challenging hunt because of elements has become to easy and the season is lacking in quality.. the year bow was allowed during muzzy elk or deer was a night and day difference, (muzzys are just a pain to keep reliable for most).. My worry is this pattern will continue and muzzy seasons will continue to become more limited, and for context, my dad and bro drew a muzzy tag in Utah for deer (not sure the unit), and he was mind blown with the guys running around with 45 cal, Fully scope muzzy claiming 250 yard shots was acceptable..theres a reason it had the lowest participation rates especially on the west side.. I think this is all a terrible idea. Idaho rules but allow sabots is the way to go imop
Post by: Westside88 on February 22, 2024, 08:11:06 PM
Post by: full choke on February 22, 2024, 08:30:50 PM
Leave it at that.
Muzzleloaders are already too advanced. At least keep the open sights only rule.
Any magnification is an abuse of the season.
Post by: highside74 on February 22, 2024, 08:44:31 PM
Scopes are already allowed for modern season.
Leave it at that.
Muzzleloaders are already too advanced. At least keep the open sights only rule.
Any magnification is an abuse of the season.
1x is zero magnification. You are seeing the object at the same distance as open sites. 1 to 1 ratio.
The light gathering ability of a scope will be the game changer in my opinion. A quality 1x will add several minutes to a muzzy hunt.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on February 22, 2024, 09:40:52 PM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on February 23, 2024, 05:56:40 AM
Post by: Cougeyes on February 23, 2024, 06:54:23 AM
It really helps those with old eyes. Never had a problem with my peep sights until recently, so I understand the want. I tried to find a fixed 1x and can't seem to find any. I remember some in the past.Vortex sells one.
Post by: huntnnw on February 23, 2024, 07:15:24 AM
Post by: James on February 23, 2024, 07:41:20 AM
The smaller the peep sight the better the accuracy, but the less light you get. It really becomes apparent at first/last light and when the animal you are trying to shoot is in some brush or whatever with poor contrast (even in the middle of the day).
1x scope doesn't have these problems.
Post by: kentrek on February 23, 2024, 07:46:27 AM
1x scope would be substantially less then that
I say give it to them and call it a wrap
Post by: duckmen1 on February 23, 2024, 07:47:51 AM
It really helps those with old eyes. Never had a problem with my peep sights until recently, so I understand the want. I tried to find a fixed 1x and can't seem to find any. I remember some in the past.Vortex sells one.
I believe Vortex 1x scope is discontinued. I have not seen any options that are still in production from main brands. Only red dots.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 23, 2024, 07:52:14 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 23, 2024, 08:16:55 AM
It really helps those with old eyes. Never had a problem with my peep sights until recently, so I understand the want. I tried to find a fixed 1x and can't seem to find any. I remember some in the past.
:yeah: I support it. MZ aren't primitive weapons anymore, if taking advantage of all the rules. I've worn glasses since I was a child. Hunted with a scope most of my life. 70 now and sight has deteriorated with age. Focusing on sights and target isn't possible. I have a 1x Hawke on the shelf I might use or sell if the change goes thru. Most likely I'll continue to use a crossbow for all seasons. I do have the disabled permit.
Post by: huntnnw on February 23, 2024, 08:18:48 AM
It really helps those with old eyes. Never had a problem with my peep sights until recently, so I understand the want. I tried to find a fixed 1x and can't seem to find any. I remember some in the past.Vortex sells one.
I believe Vortex 1x scope is discontinued. I have not seen any options that are still in production from main brands. Only red dots.
You can remove the magnifier on the 1-4x vortex. What I used in Utah and dialable . Whole point of these primitive seasons . Want a scope ? Pick up a rifle nobody is forcing you to muzzy hunt
Post by: TeacherMan on February 23, 2024, 08:20:16 AM
Post by: buckfvr on February 23, 2024, 08:47:05 AM
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 08:47:32 AM
Muzzels are too modern now to have their own season. 10 seconds until the first cry baby comes on and says we should all bond together and sing kumbaya.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 08:49:13 AM
Everyone can scope a muzzleloader and hunt the general seasons and bears. If you prefer the season timing of the primitive weapons seasons, keep it primitive, NO scopes. No argument to it, primitive weapons means just that. They've conceded more than enough as it is, see Idaho.amen.
Post by: Bullkllr on February 23, 2024, 08:54:13 AM
Everyone can scope a muzzleloader and hunt the general seasons and bears. If you prefer the season timing of the primitive weapons seasons, keep it primitive, NO scopes. No argument to it, primitive weapons means just that. They've conceded more than enough as it is, see Idaho.amen.
:yeah:
Post by: brew on February 23, 2024, 08:57:46 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 23, 2024, 09:03:48 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 09:05:45 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?I'd change it back to side locks if I could. Then maybe we could get some better seasons back. Doubtful though considering wdfw is anti harvest these days :chuckle:
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 09:23:16 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
That's a ridiculous statement. You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource. You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate. Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource. :rolleyes:
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 23, 2024, 09:28:15 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
That's a ridiculous statement. You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource. You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate. Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource. :rolleyes:
Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.
Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.
Post by: Cougeyes on February 23, 2024, 09:32:21 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 23, 2024, 09:37:05 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
That's a ridiculous statement. You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource. You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate. Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource. :rolleyes:
Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.
Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.
It appears the department doesn't have your perspective on harvest impact.
WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading
firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are
non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within
the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target.
Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices
on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one
power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates because one power
scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.
Post by: pd on February 23, 2024, 09:40:57 AM
I see that a lot of you guys haven't conceded yet. :chuckle:
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 23, 2024, 09:44:50 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
That's a ridiculous statement. You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource. You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate. Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource. :rolleyes:
Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.
Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.
It appears the department doesn't have your perspective on harvest impact.
WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading
firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are
non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within
the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target.
Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices
on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one
power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates because one power
scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.
That's the same WDFW that 99% of the people on this site are constantly bashing for being completely inept and full of crap, right?
1x scopes aren't going to be a make it or break it, but it all adds up. I guess we can re-visit this when they're proposing magnified scopes because 1x are hard to find and people are still complaining.
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 09:47:45 AM
10% of the hunters kill 90% of the game (old saying but you get the point). 1x scopes are not going to change harvest number by any appreciable amount.
I hear the exact opposite.....the folks that don't want to add this are being selfish, "It's going to shift more hunters to muzzleloader season", "It's going to my my muzzy draw odds worse", etc. etc. etc......They don't care about other hunters, they just care about their draw odds and the number of folks that my shift from rifle to muzzy.
I have a 1x scope on and have shot it on a muzzy.....for those saying it is 300 or more yard muzzy at that point, I ask you do prove it. Come and shoot a 10 shot 2 moa group at 300 yards. There may be a few that can achieve this, the vast majority cannot. As has been stated, it offers those with poor(er) eyesight the ability to shoot muzzy's again. It may add a few minutes at dawn and dusk to the hunting day. That's about it.....
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 09:50:43 AM
Post by: James on February 23, 2024, 10:05:10 AM
It's all about hunter numbers and success. I really think the best approach with muzzys is allow them to be relatively reliable (which is why I am pro 209 primers) single shot rifles that have limited range. The most elegant way to limit range without enforcing silly rules or unreliable arms is to use privative sights.
One of the main reasons I muzzy hunt is for the lack of crowds, will allowing red dots bring in more hunters and allow some more success, sure. Is it enough to make a sizeable impact? No way to know, but I don't think it's worth tempting fate. I like muzzy season, I don't want to see it ruined.
The only thing I would be ok with is allow 65 and older to use modern scopes, but I am so afraid of the slippery slope, even that makes me nervous.
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 10:13:10 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on February 23, 2024, 10:19:24 AM
How primitive are 209 primers ?
The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.
You mean its just like the guys that say lock the gates. Make it walk in only. etc.
Theres two sides to everything.
Post by: James on February 23, 2024, 10:22:57 AM
Would it be tempting at all to you if you could have an extra week or two of hunting if it was Trad muzzy only. (iron site front stuffer, flint or caps, no sabot, whatever)? or have areas or hunts dedicated to Trad. Maybe double the bull permits avaialable.....
THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE SHOULD BE HAVING!
It has nothing to do with what a moral musket is, but harvest vs opportunity.
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 10:55:41 AM
In the spirit of things, opportunity was meant for a muzzy season outside of modern. Less crowds, better weather, arguably best timing for elk etc. a little sacrifice meant you could get these things. Next thing you know, a muzzy is practically as high tech as a modern rifle. (Weather, eyesight, powder, loads etc,).
First gripe, why one week season, second gripe pumpkin patch. Multi season tags didn’t help.
If it was a true primitive weapon, then I believe much of that opportunity of a longer season with less folks, might be had. But yeah, that conversation is a tough one. I see it with archery as well.
Post by: Bullkllr on February 23, 2024, 11:02:22 AM
Would it be tempting at all to you if you could have an extra week or two of hunting if it was Trad muzzy only. (iron site front stuffer, flint or caps, no sabot, whatever)? or have areas or hunts dedicated to Trad. Maybe double the bull permits avaialable.....
THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE SHOULD BE HAVING!
It has nothing to do with what a moral musket is, but harvest vs opportunity.
In the comments someone suggested that as what is defined as primitive is expanded and efficiency incrementally increases that inevitably will result in shorter season, draw only, etc creating self-inflicted reduction of opportunity for all. Hard to argue that's not the case, but I see both sides of the issue.
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 11:12:35 AM
I think that for the folks struggling to see the sights due to age/injury, there could be an easier process for filing for exemption.
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 11:21:10 AM
Post by: steeleywhopper on February 23, 2024, 11:41:19 AM
Divided we fall!
Post by: HntnFsh on February 23, 2024, 11:49:05 AM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
Post by: boneaddict on February 23, 2024, 11:52:46 AM
Who cares! let's work with each other to fight the WDFW instead of fighting each other and letting the Anti's of the WDFW beat us down!!!!!!!
Divided we fall!
Kumbaya my lord Kumbaya (my spelling is as good as me singing. :) )
Post by: huntnnw on February 23, 2024, 12:02:15 PM
Post by: Ronquillo08 on February 23, 2024, 12:22:02 PM
New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1xIs there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 12:32:39 PM
It's a 1x scope. Likely made due to UT moving to 1x scopes only. Don't need to be a champion shooter to shoot a modern muzzy that distance. Just need a good aiming device and accurate dope.New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1xIs there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 12:55:02 PM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.
This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.
Post by: Ronquillo08 on February 23, 2024, 12:58:06 PM
Just my general questions thanks, I don't have a dog in this fight. I dont hunt during muzzy.It's a 1x scope. Likely made due to UT moving to 1x scopes only. Don't need to be a champion shooter to shoot a modern muzzy that distance. Just need a good aiming device and accurate dope.New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1xIs there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 23, 2024, 01:04:50 PM
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 01:07:05 PM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.
This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.
Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success??? Man, that is a hard one to bite off on. What other factors? What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %). Did those percentages drop in other categories? Elk herd numbers? Permit given out? etc. etc. etc. A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases.
That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills. I have never had a musket fail to ignite. The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range. A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 01:17:14 PM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.
This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.
Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success??? Man, that is a hard one to bite off on. What other factors? What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %). Did those percentages drop in other categories? Elk herd numbers? Permit given out? etc. etc. etc. A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases.
That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills. I have never had a musket fail to ignite. The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range. A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.
No, I would say that the increase in reliability of a muzzy increased the hunter numbers in the units. Which increases total harvest. Muzzy season has gotten extremely popular because it's easier than it used to be. Do you hunt western elk? Rain is a real issue with musket caps and open ignition. My first bull I killed was with my buddy's gun. Mine wouldn't fire with the musket cap
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 01:19:12 PM
Matter of fact, the youtube videos shared suggest that most MODERN rifles with high variable power optics realistically shoot 1.5-2 MOA. Suggesting that shooters claiming their rifles are 1 MOA or better is just a lucky group here and there.
So lets extrapolate this data / argument and draw a few assumptions with muzzleloaders. We already know they are not near as accurate as a modern high power rifle, we can probably all agree on that. We know we are talking 1x scope with a 1-3 MOA dot / crosshair, compared to a 4-32x50 nightforce NX8....again, not much argument there. The BC of the bullets is significantly worse with a muzzleloader....no argument to be made here. AAAANNNNNNDDDDD.... Now you want to make the arguemnt that a muzzleloader can shoot equally as wall 1.5-2 MOA at range as the same rifles you all said were not able to hold those groups.
Color me confused?? :dunno: :dunno: What am I missing?? :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 01:26:52 PM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.
This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.
Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success??? Man, that is a hard one to bite off on. What other factors? What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %). Did those percentages drop in other categories? Elk herd numbers? Permit given out? etc. etc. etc. A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases.
That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills. I have never had a musket fail to ignite. The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range. A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.
No, I would say that the increase in reliability of a muzzy increased the hunter numbers in the units. Which increases total harvest. Muzzy season has gotten extremely popular because it's easier than it used to be. Do you hunt western elk? Rain is a real issue with musket caps and open ignition. My first bull I killed was with my buddy's gun. Mine wouldn't fire with the musket cap
I now understand your argument. My guess is the rifle or archery harvest has gone down which would likely equate to similar percentages of elk being killed across the board annually.....just hunters leaving one user group to go to another.
I don't hunt westside, but he areas I have hunted elk can and have been equally as wet. I grew up hunting and living on the westside so I am aware of the challenges. The cow elk I killed 10 years ago or so with muzzy....we hunted the entire season is some of the wettest, coldest conditions I have ever seen and my musket cap still went off. Maybe I got lucky. I did have a balloon over the muzzle and I protected the nipple with a gloved hand while having the opening facing toward the grounds to keep water out. I was aware and made efforts to make sure it was as dry as possible. A 209 system can still fail if water gets to your powder, so it is also not failsafe.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 01:28:20 PM
Modern powders and bullets in modern inlines are incredibly accurate and consistent. Here's an example. Clean bore shot followed up by 6 more (my last 6 rounds I had) @100 testing for accuracy. No doubt 4 more shots would have filled out slightly more but it's an moa gun and load. MORE than adequate accuracy for killing stuff.
Also, you can use my name. You don't have to say "some people". My skin is thicker than that :chuckle: :hello:
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 01:32:11 PM
209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys
Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!
From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.
This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.
Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success??? Man, that is a hard one to bite off on. What other factors? What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %). Did those percentages drop in other categories? Elk herd numbers? Permit given out? etc. etc. etc. A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases.
That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills. I have never had a musket fail to ignite. The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range. A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.
No, I would say that the increase in reliability of a muzzy increased the hunter numbers in the units. Which increases total harvest. Muzzy season has gotten extremely popular because it's easier than it used to be. Do you hunt western elk? Rain is a real issue with musket caps and open ignition. My first bull I killed was with my buddy's gun. Mine wouldn't fire with the musket cap
I now understand your argument. My guess is the rifle or archery harvest has gone down which would likely equate to similar percentages of elk being killed across the board annually.....just hunters leaving one user group to go to another.
I don't hunt westside, but he areas I have hunted elk can and have been equally as wet. I grew up hunting and living on the westside so I am aware of the challenges. The cow elk I killed 10 years ago or so with muzzy....we hunted the entire season is some of the wettest, coldest conditions I have ever seen and my musket cap still went off. Maybe I got lucky. I did have a balloon over the muzzle and I protected the nipple with a gloved hand while having the opening facing toward the grounds to keep water out. I was aware and made efforts to make sure it was as dry as possible. A 209 system can still fail if water gets to your powder, so it is also not failsafe.
Yeah I hear you, that very well could be. What I know and see is more hunter and less elk. I do feel very fortunate to be successful every other year. I just worry if we keep allowing more technology, we'll loose even more of what little we have left.
And for sure prevention goes a long ways for muzzy, regardless of the ignition type
Post by: HntnFsh on February 23, 2024, 01:33:20 PM
Post by: jrebel on February 23, 2024, 01:38:00 PM
You're missing the part where 2, 3, and 4 moa guns if consistent are more than adequate to hit vital sized targets at 300 and 400 yards. Also scope magnification adds minimal accuracy benefits at those distances. I've done lots of 1x shooting and a 10" plate is a non issue at 300 yards.
Modern powders and bullets in modern inlines are incredibly accurate and consistent. Here's an example. Clean bore shot followed up by 6 more (my last 6 rounds I had) @100 testing for accuracy. No doubt 4 more shots would have filled out slightly more but it's an moa gun and load. MORE than adequate accuracy for killing stuff.
Also, you can use my name. You don't have to say "some people". My skin is thicker than that :chuckle: :hello:
Actually, I received PM's with multiple videos from a couple folks. But yes, you did send one and they were great to watch. I disagree with the premise that a rifle is not 1 MOA capable....when it likely is, but the shooter is not. That goes for me as well as I have gotten older. I have rifles that I can shoot 7 rounds one day at 300 yards and hold sub 1" or .33 MOA.....and the next day, I run a 2" group at 300. The rifle and ammo are capable and have proven time and time again....but me as a variable often screw it up.
Back on topic.....and I will preface this by saying, "MOST PEOPLE" (my opinion) have no business shooting 300 yards with a 1x scope. I would bet a lot of money, "MOST PEOPLE" couldn't hold 2 MOA groups. I don't believe a 4 MOA is sufficient to accuracy to be shooting at animals past 200 yards. 12's...4 MOA at 300 yards is unacceptable...again, my opinion, take it for what it's worth (free) :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 23, 2024, 01:42:29 PM
Post by: raydog on February 23, 2024, 01:54:51 PM
That goes to most folks accuracy in general and that's with high power rifles. Vast majority of hunters are 6+ moa field shooters. It's been proven time and time again with tools such as the craft drills. But one time they shot a 3 shot sub moa group and another time they hit a 10 moa rock face at 500 yards so they are basically good to a 1k :chuckle: Point being, if people can see the target (optic allows that) they are gonna letting er fly.
I feel personally attacked :chuckle: :chuckle:
Only kidding. Biggest elk I have had was a 240 broadside. I didn't shoot because Im not confident in myself at those ranges. I've seen me shoot!
Post by: HooknoseHunter on February 23, 2024, 04:40:10 PM
I agree with both sides of the scope/no-scope argument. I like the idea of “primitive” muzzle loaders but on the other hand a scope would lend nicely to the style of elk hunting I do. I’m not committed to either side at this point.
Post by: duckmen1 on February 23, 2024, 07:45:41 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 23, 2024, 08:45:04 PM
Post by: Cougartail on February 23, 2024, 10:28:30 PM
The etched reticle is a huge improvement over any iorn type sights. It sits on an AR-15 now and is my favorite optic for shots under 150 yards.
I may use it on my muzzy during a rifle season.
Post by: goldenhtr on February 24, 2024, 09:23:26 AM
Who cares! let's work with each other to fight the WDFW instead of fighting each other and letting the Anti's of the WDFW beat us down!!!!!!!
Divided we fall!
:yeah:
Post by: JakeLand on February 24, 2024, 12:12:40 PM
Post by: TCHunter25 on March 05, 2024, 10:28:09 AM
Post by: GWP on March 05, 2024, 11:35:05 AM
That goes to most folks accuracy in general and that's with high power rifles. Vast majority of hunters are 6+ moa field shooters. It's been proven time and time again with tools such as the craft drills. But one time they shot a 3 shot sub moa group and another time they hit a 10 moa rock face at 500 yards so they are basically good to a 1k :chuckle: Point being, if people can see the target (optic allows that) they are gonna letting er fly.
I made a similar statement some time back and the response was, let’s just say, ‘not favorable’.
When I was much younger and much more hand stable I had a custom 22-250 built for longish range varmint shooting. I thought I shot it pretty well.
The builders brother, who was a world class competition shooter, took his match ammo made my shooting look like a beginner. Sure proved what that rifle was capable of!
I have shot with some pretty good shooters over the years, but in my experience the average shooter over estimates their actual effective range.
AND will blame everything but their ability to hold steady or handle recoil for a larger group or ‘flyer’.
If a 1X becomes legal, yes, I will use one.
Post by: lazydrifter on March 08, 2024, 05:59:17 AM
Post by: JakeLand on March 18, 2024, 04:37:20 AM
Post by: andersonjk4 on March 18, 2024, 09:23:28 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development/2024-2026-season-setting (https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/development/2024-2026-season-setting)
Post by: nwhunter on March 19, 2024, 03:54:47 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on March 19, 2024, 07:57:36 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on March 19, 2024, 08:08:34 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 19, 2024, 08:18:50 AM
I don't think red dots will be legal.
If they accept it as written.
WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading
firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are
non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within
the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target.
Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices
on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one
power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates because one power
scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.
Post by: duckmen1 on March 19, 2024, 10:01:35 AM
I don't think red dots will be legal.
So question would be why would they bring this rule up when there is no 1x scopes on the market if they weren't including red dot sights? If anyone could show me a current in production 1x scope non red dot I would love to hear the options available.
Post by: Cougartail on March 19, 2024, 10:18:39 AM
I don't think red dots will be legal.
So question would be why would they bring this rule up when there is no 1x scopes on the market if they weren't including red dot sights? If anyone could show me a current in production 1x scope non red dot I would love to hear the options available.
Primary Arms Cyclops 1x has an etched reticle that can be illuminated. It isn't a true red dot. Very well made optic that works well. Around $270.
Post by: benhuntin on March 19, 2024, 10:23:21 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: blackymaster20 on March 19, 2024, 10:28:19 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on March 19, 2024, 10:42:49 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 19, 2024, 10:52:42 AM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 19, 2024, 11:56:59 AM
The funny thing is that locating elk is the part most people struggle with. Why would other hunters care if you could possibly get a more ethical shot off? IMO a 1x scope is not going to suddenly make harvest rates skyrocket.
No, but it might skyrocket the number of people out there chasing them with a muzzleloader instead of a rifle...
Post by: blackymaster20 on March 19, 2024, 12:12:38 PM
any elk.
Post by: The100Road on March 19, 2024, 01:08:11 PM
This topic is one of many that proves why hunters will continue to lose hunting issues. Everyone argues that one hunting group or another is better/unethical/or whatever. If you want to hunt muzzy with what ever is legal, have at it, if not, don’t try and kill it for other hunters. It’s the same with bait and non-bait. Or hounds or non-hounds. As hunters we should take and keep every right that this state will give us. Or whatever, really doesn’t matter to me.:yeah:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: James on March 19, 2024, 02:28:06 PM
I prefer my primitive weapon seasons longer and with less people, but I don't have a lot of control over that.
Post by: dreadi on March 20, 2024, 07:00:02 AM
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
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Post by: Cougartail on March 20, 2024, 07:26:31 AM
I'd totally support loin cloths if that meant no orange. Imagine how much that would clash.
BLACK HAMMER ARMS
07/02 NFA Dealer
http://www.blackhammerarms.com
http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
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Better have a strong stomach if hunters will be walking around in loin cloths. Orange is acceptable if that is the case. :chuckle: :dunno:
Post by: Rem14 on March 20, 2024, 08:33:19 AM
Post by: chukardogs on March 20, 2024, 12:41:15 PM
Considering what the state has been doing the last twenty years or so with wolves, bears and cougar, it seems a little disingenuous to now be discussing improvements in the methods we use to hunt deer and elk with. Just me?!?
Post by: Rodney107 on March 20, 2024, 06:02:11 PM
Post by: Cougartail on March 20, 2024, 06:29:28 PM
OK I'm 42 so this won't apply to me for a wile. Going through this topic there are a lot of people saying the older generation are being pushed out due to eyesight and that's same with archery. What does everyone think about running scopes on muzzleloader let's say 60 and older to keep them doin what they love same with archery say crossbow during archery for 60 and above. I mean there is already a little season during modern for whitetail for over 65
Good idea!
Post by: bigdub257 on March 20, 2024, 07:42:16 PM
OK I'm 42 so this won't apply to me for a wile. Going through this topic there are a lot of people saying the older generation are being pushed out due to eyesight and that's same with archery. What does everyone think about running scopes on muzzleloader let's say 60 and older to keep them doin what they love same with archery say crossbow during archery for 60 and above. I mean there is already a little season during modern for whitetail for over 65
Good idea!
Great idea! It's kind of a tough pill to swallow when your eyes don't work like they used to.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 20, 2024, 08:18:44 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 21, 2024, 09:04:33 AM
OK I'm 42 so this won't apply to me for a wile. Going through this topic there are a lot of people saying the older generation are being pushed out due to eyesight and that's same with archery. What does everyone think about running scopes on muzzleloader let's say 60 and older to keep them doin what they love same with archery say crossbow during archery for 60 and above. I mean there is already a little season during modern for whitetail for over 65
Good idea!
Great idea! It's kind of a tough pill to swallow when your eyes don't work like they used to.
:yeah: Falling into that category myself lately.... :rolleyes:
Post by: chukardogs on March 21, 2024, 09:18:04 AM
Post by: GWP on March 21, 2024, 02:58:35 PM
Post by: go4steelhd on March 21, 2024, 03:04:58 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on March 21, 2024, 03:07:59 PM
How many can remember a fairly distinct moment in time when the realization set in, that using traditional open sights (bead in a groove) wasn't going to be an option for very much longer?
My father went through this a few years ago when I was trying to get him to go with us Muzzy elk. He could not see the the front sight and target.
I am all for the 1x scopes so I can hunt with my father again.
I also don't think there will be a million guys ditching their long archery seasons or their Modern firearm elk seasons to switch to the short muzzy season.
Post by: bobcat on March 21, 2024, 03:20:24 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on March 21, 2024, 04:02:24 PM
Post by: SuperX on March 21, 2024, 04:35:31 PM
The solution is being flexible and changing ME not changing the rules for everyone. If I couldn't draw my bow I should switch to rifle or muzzle loader. If I can't use a muzzle loader with iron sights I should use a modern rifle with a scope that I can see through. Time catches up with all of us, and we have to adapt. It's not society's job to adapt to me. :twocents:
Post by: full choke on March 21, 2024, 04:53:09 PM
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
Post by: The100Road on March 21, 2024, 04:54:44 PM
I sympathize with older hunters facing challenges with primitive weapons. I'm 66. What I don't sympathize with is the notion that we should change the rules to cater to old fogies like me. If I can't pull my bow back if it's at the minimum legal draw weight, why should we make it legal for everyone to use a cross bow? If I can't see my front sights with my muzzy, why should we all get to use a scope? If I can't walk that far, why should all the trails be opened to ATVs?
The solution is being flexible and changing ME not changing the rules for everyone. If I couldn't draw my bow I should switch to rifle or muzzle loader. If I can't use a muzzle loader with iron sights I should use a modern rifle with a scope that I can see through. Time catches up with all of us, and we have to adapt. It's not society's job to adapt to me. :twocents:
Right. So if you can’t or dont want to use a scope…… then don’t. Why would you stop me from using one? Worry about yourself right?
Post by: The100Road on March 21, 2024, 04:57:51 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Post by: full choke on March 21, 2024, 05:07:57 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
Post by: lazydrifter on March 21, 2024, 05:10:53 PM
Post by: Rodney107 on March 21, 2024, 05:24:21 PM
Post by: full choke on March 21, 2024, 05:36:58 PM
Allowing the older group to be able to shoot with a scope/crossbow would allow families to still be able to hunt together doing what they prefer doin.
They can use a scope on their muzzy all day long during the modern season. Even a high powered scope.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 21, 2024, 07:29:43 PM
Post by: The100Road on March 21, 2024, 07:31:36 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
I am using a primitive weapon. With a 1x scope on it. Muzzys don’t shoot 1000 yards like rifles. If I want to shoot a rifle I’d hunt during rifle season. I think it’s hunters who can’t get an elk don’t want others to use a 1x scope because it’ll some how hurt there chances even more. Pretty selfish.
Post by: full choke on March 21, 2024, 08:09:58 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
I am using a primitive weapon. With a 1x scope on it. Muzzys don’t shoot 1000 yards like rifles. If I want to shoot a rifle I’d hunt during rifle season. I think it’s hunters who can’t get an elk don’t want others to use a 1x scope because it’ll some how hurt there chances even more. Pretty selfish.
HaHa.
More selfish than wanting to bend existing rules to match your personal inadequacies?
Post by: The100Road on March 21, 2024, 09:13:24 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
I am using a primitive weapon. With a 1x scope on it. Muzzys don’t shoot 1000 yards like rifles. If I want to shoot a rifle I’d hunt during rifle season. I think it’s hunters who can’t get an elk don’t want others to use a 1x scope because it’ll some how hurt there chances even more. Pretty selfish.
HaHa.
More selfish than wanting to bend existing rules to match your personal inadequacies?
Yes.
I couldn’t care less what other hunters want to use or do while hunting if it’s legal. I would never try to prevent them from being successful. I do my own thing and wish them luck.
Post by: lazydrifter on March 21, 2024, 10:10:03 PM
Post by: Taco280AI on March 22, 2024, 05:00:54 AM
I highly doubt you'd see a massive increase in harvest rates.
Post by: Cougartail on March 22, 2024, 06:42:23 AM
Over 60 gets the extra days regardless. :chuckle:
Post by: dreadi on March 23, 2024, 12:08:16 AM
If we are going to be honest, the laws and rules are changed based on technology with some credence to safety and some to some opinions of fair chase.
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07/02 NFA Dealer
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http://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarms
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Post by: duckmen1 on March 23, 2024, 08:41:32 AM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
Muzzleloaders became less primitive years back when they allowed closed breech and 209s. The reliability factor went way up for those that didn’t take good of care of their firearm in the field. I used to hear a bunch of folks over the years in areas say Well I should have got an elk or deer but my gun didn’t go off. Don’t hear that as much anymore. And success rates seem to be doing pretty well with muzzy seasons. That said I am not against those past rule changes one bit. Happy to see others showing more interest with less restrictions within that weapon catagory. That also said I still use an open breach plung style muzzleloader. With loose pyrodex powder. But that’s my choice. I chose to not use newer powders, closed breach systems, 209, etc. I don’t want to tell others restrictions just because I didn’t change. I do support 1x scopes too. Whether I put one on or not. But the one power scope really is most aiding in people with site issues with near and farsighted reasonings. Not in reliability aspect of the firearm. Now another thought is open sites never seem to be nocked off. In fact I have had a muzzy sighted in for over 10 years and never had to adjust the sites. Most cheaper 1x sites on the market that a lot will choose to put on their gun. How often will we hear oh my scope or red dot site was off and I missed the animal. Scopes have a higher tendency of those issues then open sites for the average blue collar hunter. Just a few thoughts.
Post by: The100Road on March 24, 2024, 09:05:52 PM
A fella can always use a scoped muzzy during the modern season. You can still hunt with your black powder rifle, even increase your vision with powered optics!
Muzzy season is what it is because it is supposed to be primitive. It is already tainted, why keep blurring the lines?
Anyhow it really it isn't going to matter in a couple of years anyways. Might as well eat your cake now.
If you believe it’s “supposed to be primitive” then don’t use a scope. Why stop others from doing what they want or feel comfortable with? You love primitive great. Go use a spear and stop caring if others want to use a scope or not.
Because the timing of the season is set for primitive weapons. If you cannot use a primitive weapon hunt during the season that allows for glass. Pretty simple.
Muzzleloaders became less primitive years back when they allowed closed breech and 209s. The reliability factor went way up for those that didn’t take good of care of their firearm in the field. I used to hear a bunch of folks over the years in areas say Well I should have got an elk or deer but my gun didn’t go off. Don’t hear that as much anymore. And success rates seem to be doing pretty well with muzzy seasons. That said I am not against those past rule changes one bit. Happy to see others showing more interest with less restrictions within that weapon catagory. That also said I still use an open breach plung style muzzleloader. With loose pyrodex powder. But that’s my choice. I chose to not use newer powders, closed breach systems, 209, etc. I don’t want to tell others restrictions just because I didn’t change. I do support 1x scopes ;) too. Whether I put one on or not. But the one power scope really is most aiding in people with site issues with near and farsighted reasonings. Not in reliability aspect of the firearm. Now another though is open sites never seem to be nocked off. In fact I have had a muzzy sighted in for over 10 years and never had to adjust the sites. Most cheaper 1x sites on the market that a lot will choose to put on their gun. How often will we hear oh my scope or red dot site was off and I missed the animal. Scopes have a higher tendency of those issues then open sites for the average blue collar hunter. Just a few thoughts.
Hey hey hey. You doing What you want and me doing what I want and staying legal isn’t allowed in this Thread. You must not want anything allowed that you don’t want to use in order to have a comment. Take that nonsense elsewhere. ;)
Post by: SuperX on March 25, 2024, 09:04:20 AM
Post by: kentrek on March 25, 2024, 10:08:32 AM
A 1x scope or red dot, why not :dunno:
I highly doubt you'd see a massive increase in harvest rates.
Utah already did this and reported only a 3% increase in harvest when they went to unlimited scopes...so you can expect a 1x scope would be substantially less than that
Post by: duckmen1 on March 25, 2024, 10:31:38 AM
100, I think things are pretty well laid out now as far as allocating the resource across different user groups, rifle, muzzy and archery. If we make changes that increase the effectiveness of a weapon group, or we have a greater influx of hunters into a group, then that group will need to either lose days to hunt or become a draw with only a set number of hunters to remain within the allocated take for that user group. It's how herds are managed in North America.
With so few hunters for muzzy during many deer seasons and the slaughter of modern season? It isn’t a good idea to maybe take some of that pressure off modern with a pretty regulated eastern Washington season for muzzy? Some units hardly see a muzzy hunter. Yet modern is a slaughter fest of orange pumpkins with extreme long range shooting compared to the minimal range muzzleloader gets. 1x or red dot isn’t like a 24 power scope on these modern rifles these days with the calculated dope charts and all that modern has been seeing the last number of years becoming more effective. 1x is still just 1x like open sites. I think if some made the switch from modern to hunt muzzy we may even see lower over all harvest with combined seasons. Just a thought.
Or another thought. We should lower the ability of modern. Take away raised turrets and dope chart legality and go back to hold overs. Think about that. Same concept.
Kenetrek showed a good harvest statistic. I think the bigger issue is finding a legal animal to try to harvest if a hunter can’t locate that animal to get into range it doesn’t matter if he tries to shoot that deer at 100yards with a peep or 1x scope.
Post by: SuperX on March 25, 2024, 10:45:55 AM
You can 'dial in' a scope for any range, less so with iron sights though those quigly shooters can hit a buffalo at 1000 yards with them. I think that maybe the fear is that people will be shooting at a far further distance than the season setting accounts for and harvest would exceed goal. If a muzzy can shoot consistently at that long a range we'll see more animals taken and wounded. In archery they don't allow scopes at all, and regulate arrow weight to be sure the weapon is not too effective. Even with that, people can shoot 100y, though few would given the cost of arrows. At least you still have to draw and hold the bow until you get a shot, usually while the animal is close enough to hear your arrow chattering on the rest.100, I think things are pretty well laid out now as far as allocating the resource across different user groups, rifle, muzzy and archery. If we make changes that increase the effectiveness of a weapon group, or we have a greater influx of hunters into a group, then that group will need to either lose days to hunt or become a draw with only a set number of hunters to remain within the allocated take for that user group. It's how herds are managed in North America.
With so few hunters for muzzy during many deer seasons and the slaughter of modern season? It isn’t a good idea to maybe take some of that pressure off modern with a pretty regulated eastern Washington season for muzzy? Some units hardly see a muzzy hunter. Yet modern is a slaughter fest of orange pumpkins with extreme long range shooting compared to the minimal range muzzleloader gets. 1x or red dot isn’t like a 24 power scope on these modern rifles these days with the calculated dope charts and all that modern has been seeing the last number of years becoming more effective. 1x is still just 1x like open sites. I think if some made the switch from modern to hunt muzzy we may even see lower over all harvest with combined seasons. Just a thought.
Or another thought. We should lower the ability of modern. Take away raised turrets and dope chart legality and go back to hold overs. Think about that. Same concept.
Kenetrek showed a good harvest statistic. I think the bigger issue is finding a legal animal to try to harvest if a hunter can’t locate that animal to get into range it doesn’t matter if he tries to shoot that deer at 100yards with a peep or 1x scope.
Post by: duckmen1 on March 25, 2024, 11:18:54 AM
You can 'dial in' a scope for any range, less so with iron sights though those quigly shooters can hit a buffalo at 1000 yards with them. I think that maybe the fear is that people will be shooting at a far further distance than the season setting accounts for and harvest would exceed goal. If a muzzy can shoot consistently at that long a range we'll see more animals taken and wounded. In archery they don't allow scopes at all, and regulate arrow weight to be sure the weapon is not too effective. Even with that, people can shoot 100y, though few would given the cost of arrows. At least you still have to draw and hold the bow until you get a shot, usually while the animal is close enough to hear your arrow chattering on the rest.100, I think things are pretty well laid out now as far as allocating the resource across different user groups, rifle, muzzy and archery. If we make changes that increase the effectiveness of a weapon group, or we have a greater influx of hunters into a group, then that group will need to either lose days to hunt or become a draw with only a set number of hunters to remain within the allocated take for that user group. It's how herds are managed in North America.
With so few hunters for muzzy during many deer seasons and the slaughter of modern season? It isn’t a good idea to maybe take some of that pressure off modern with a pretty regulated eastern Washington season for muzzy? Some units hardly see a muzzy hunter. Yet modern is a slaughter fest of orange pumpkins with extreme long range shooting compared to the minimal range muzzleloader gets. 1x or red dot isn’t like a 24 power scope on these modern rifles these days with the calculated dope charts and all that modern has been seeing the last number of years becoming more effective. 1x is still just 1x like open sites. I think if some made the switch from modern to hunt muzzy we may even see lower over all harvest with combined seasons. Just a thought.
Or another thought. We should lower the ability of modern. Take away raised turrets and dope chart legality and go back to hold overs. Think about that. Same concept.
Kenetrek showed a good harvest statistic. I think the bigger issue is finding a legal animal to try to harvest if a hunter can’t locate that animal to get into range it doesn’t matter if he tries to shoot that deer at 100yards with a peep or 1x scope.
I think my point was missed on my post. Maybe I miss worded. Idk. Point being we keep trying to split each other up. Instead of sticking together. As Kenetrek pointed out success rates would not greatly increase. Few animals more, maybe but maybe that is the few animals that were recovered and not lost wounded to shoot at another animal due to eye sight issues. That could be said with individuals trying to take longer shots too. And my point about the switch in interest from modern hunters going to muzzy I think is a very valid point. You would be taking away a guys opportunity that may be trying 500 plus yard shots and he would be hard pressed to make it to 200 yards. But he gained that ability to put a fixed optic on a muzzy. Not realizing he lost his ability to use a adjustable power scope with turrets etc.
For me and my own muzzleloader if I look into the ballistics of my load I shouldn’t be shooting past 125yards to 150 yards tops with open sight or fixed one power scope. Either way I look down the sight if I am being a responsible hunter for my firearms capabilities sight isn’t changing my effective range in this case.
Reminds me of people saying a 410 isn’t ethical to hunt waterfowl, upland birds and turkey with. Yet my success history would say different. But I see so many people unethically shooting 12 gauges and 10 gauges
Or comments of individuals saying a 6.5 Creedmoore is unethical to shoot elk with out to 200 to 300 yards but they then say their 6.5 PRC is an 800 yard elk shooter.
Ballistics play a huge roll in all firearms, muzzy, modern, shotguns, and bows. Wish more took the time to learn them.
One of many units results with muzzy success and hunter numbers compared to the ol mighty modern season. I feel very afraid of what this new rule might do!!! Come on help a muzzy brother out a bit. I mean look at the success rate and hunter numbers. Lol
Post by: duckmen1 on March 25, 2024, 11:24:20 AM
You can 'dial in' a scope for any range, less so with iron sights though those quigly shooters can hit a buffalo at 1000 yards with them. I think that maybe the fear is that people will be shooting at a far further distance than the season setting accounts for and harvest would exceed goal. If a muzzy can shoot consistently at that long a range we'll see more animals taken and wounded. In archery they don't allow scopes at all, and regulate arrow weight to be sure the weapon is not too effective. Even with that, people can shoot 100y, though few would given the cost of arrows. At least you still have to draw and hold the bow until you get a shot, usually while the animal is close enough to hear your arrow chattering on the rest.100, I think things are pretty well laid out now as far as allocating the resource across different user groups, rifle, muzzy and archery. If we make changes that increase the effectiveness of a weapon group, or we have a greater influx of hunters into a group, then that group will need to either lose days to hunt or become a draw with only a set number of hunters to remain within the allocated take for that user group. It's how herds are managed in North America.
With so few hunters for muzzy during many deer seasons and the slaughter of modern season? It isn’t a good idea to maybe take some of that pressure off modern with a pretty regulated eastern Washington season for muzzy? Some units hardly see a muzzy hunter. Yet modern is a slaughter fest of orange pumpkins with extreme long range shooting compared to the minimal range muzzleloader gets. 1x or red dot isn’t like a 24 power scope on these modern rifles these days with the calculated dope charts and all that modern has been seeing the last number of years becoming more effective. 1x is still just 1x like open sites. I think if some made the switch from modern to hunt muzzy we may even see lower over all harvest with combined seasons. Just a thought.
Or another thought. We should lower the ability of modern. Take away raised turrets and dope chart legality and go back to hold overs. Think about that. Same concept.
Kenetrek showed a good harvest statistic. I think the bigger issue is finding a legal animal to try to harvest if a hunter can’t locate that animal to get into range it doesn’t matter if he tries to shoot that deer at 100yards with a peep or 1x scope.
The arrow comment has me Rollin. “Few would shoot 100yards due to cost of arrows” !!! Exactly!!!! few try to extend the range with every weapon further than they should. And most everyone should be thinking more about the animal then the cost of the arrow. Meaning if you are worried about the cost of your arrows you are probably shooting too far. :chuckle: True true statement
Post by: The100Road on March 25, 2024, 07:40:57 PM
100, I think things are pretty well laid out now as far as allocating the resource across different user groups, rifle, muzzy and archery. If we make changes that increase the effectiveness of a weapon group, or we have a greater influx of hunters into a group, then that group will need to either lose days to hunt or become a draw with only a set number of hunters to remain within the allocated take for that user group. It's how herds are managed in North America.
Who doesn’t want to increase the effectiveness of a weapon? Also, did everyone jump to archery when the allowed lighted knock and expandables? I’m not scared of a little more competition during the muzzy season. Con for a few more people muzzy hunting instead of riffle. Pro a scope. I’ll take the 1x scope.
If more hunter come to muzzy then how about opening up more GMU’s for muzzy? Right now it insane how little GMU’s are open for muzzy compared to archery and modern.
Post by: 85yota on March 25, 2024, 07:53:30 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on March 25, 2024, 07:56:48 PM
May have missed it, what's the benefit of this rule?. This seems like a feel good sounds good rule that benefits a small minority under the guise of expanded opportunities. I honestly can't see a benefit to the general hunting experience/regulations that would justify this decision.. if this is all about bad eyesight, than unfortunately there's other options to continue hunting..maybe doctors notes, etc.. there seems to be a lot of negative responses to this, (me included) but the overall positives to this rule seem to be lacking.. for muzzleloader hunters, this seems like a superficial benefit
What are the true negatives to the rule? How is it such a negative toward other user groups for other seasons for those that choose not to use muzzleloaders. A positive I see is if a few people choose to hunt muzzleloader season and make the switch from modern or archery it makes better distribution of hunters.
Post by: huntnnw on March 25, 2024, 10:52:25 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 26, 2024, 06:49:52 AM
I am also with the Dr's note if you have a eye sight issue and being able to use a 1x just like archery and a note if you cannot pull a bow anymore.
It is not quite as simple as the Dr.'s note everyone refers too. It is more complicated than it needs to be. Multiple disability forms are required to be filled out by applicant and Drs. I contacted every clinic in two counties. None did the specific test required for my situation. Dr. didn't even know the test referenced in one application form. WDFW staff were very helpful, but it took me over a year to get thru the process.
They could and probably should simplify and/or update the disability application process. Maybe the 65 and over is WDFW's solution. :dunno:
Post by: buckfvr on March 26, 2024, 09:57:03 AM
I cant do it anymore so change the rules so I can.
:cryriver:
Post by: duckmen1 on March 26, 2024, 10:36:33 AM
Seems like its the "I want to be accommodated" syndrome. I cant see good enough anymore and my shoulder hurts, so change things to accommodate me. Participation trophy all the way.
I cant do it anymore so change the rules so I can.
:cryriver:
All seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law. Aren't individuals looking at 1x with open sights? Heck I could put a globe crossair sight on my peep. And that is more less a one power scope.
I am just blown away at the division in the subject of a few users against the rule. Their comments in regards. When there is not a clear reason to a negative toward. If it is said it won't bring a big difference to overall harvest, may help some individuals continue in the sport or bring interest to muzzleloading, maybe take a minimal amount of pressure off the deadly modern slaughter group, which may actually put a little less effectiveness in success rates by choosing a lesser weapon, etc. Over the years personally I have done modern, archery and muzzleloader. I have never accepted a participation trophy. And never went after a wdfw/doctors note which is an extremely hard proccess for those that don't understand. I continue to push and see success within my abilities. And don't try to hold others back. I don't see a negative toward this rule. It will have a minimal impact. And I guess I am one that don't feel like its all about me or being an intitled one. S..t on other user groups as long as it comes to my weapon choice continues to see increase in effectiveness with new technology???? Lets just bring up modern for a second. Simply range an animal and your scope dials for you. Sig!!! Technology. Makes it more effective don't it. Maybe we should put a cap on modern technologies during modern seasons! Oh no we can't do that because its all about me!!! Sweet sixteen South Park reference.
I also never wish injuries on anyone. But for those that have gone through injuries I am sure this comment is a bit of an insult toward them and what they have gone through. A lack of compassion toward other sportsman and a little disrespectful. Someday one may understand. Hope they don't have too. Good luck out there and may all users within all abilities enjoy the outdoors.
Keep division and get no where. Stick together and maybe we as outdoorsman may get somewhere.
Post by: boneaddict on March 26, 2024, 11:21:09 AM
Quote
All seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 26, 2024, 11:58:49 AM
QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
Wait. My sabots aren't heat-seeking?
Why am I paying so much for them now? :(
Post by: duckmen1 on March 26, 2024, 02:29:06 PM
QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?
I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.
More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.
Post by: bustedoldman on March 26, 2024, 03:18:25 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 26, 2024, 04:11:42 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 26, 2024, 04:23:04 PM
Anyone watch the meeting today?
Couldn't find it.
Post by: Brushbuster on March 26, 2024, 04:26:03 PM
I watched the meeting. The commission listened to the proposals from the Dept but didn't provide feedback on their decision. The Dept received 78 comments before the meeting and provided a general summary of the responses. Only one person called in to comment & he was against any changes to muzzy regs.Anyone watch the meeting today?
Couldn't find it.
Post by: bustedoldman on March 27, 2024, 08:10:43 AM
I watched the meeting. The commission listened to the proposals from the Dept but didn't provide feedback on their decision. The Dept received 78 comments before the meeting and provided a general summary of the responses. Only one person called in to comment & he was against any changes to muzzy regs.Anyone watch the meeting today?
Couldn't find it.
What was the general consensus of the 78 comments?
Post by: huntnnw on March 27, 2024, 08:40:11 AM
QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?
I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.
More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.
And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 27, 2024, 09:04:16 AM
I watched the meeting. The commission listened to the proposals from the Dept but didn't provide feedback on their decision. The Dept received 78 comments before the meeting and provided a general summary of the responses. Only one person called in to comment & he was against any changes to muzzy regs.Anyone watch the meeting today?
Couldn't find it.
What was the general consensus of the 78 comments?
260 responses. WAC 220-414-060 Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target. Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates per se, because one power scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.
The proposed changes are motivated by requests from the hunting public, especially seniors, because vision impairment can restrict the use of muzzleloading equipment for hunting purposes. One-power scopes provide a clearer sight window without magnifying the target in much the same way eyeglasses correct someone’s vision (i.e., they make the target clearer, not bigger). Hunter participation, retention, and recruitment may benefit by allowing red dot and one-power scopes on muzzleloading equipment, though the use of scopes may be perceived as contrary to the spirit of primitive weapons.
Question title
Do you support this rule change? 220-414-060
You selected:Yes
57%
No
43%
Closed to responses | 260 Responses
Post by: Brushbuster on March 27, 2024, 09:25:40 AM
• On the summary screen at the meeting, they only provided a very general breakdown. Here is what I remember: Pro: general comments of support
• Against: general comments to keep weapons primitive, concern of technology creep, challenge to know if scope is 1x for enforcement, separate muzzy seasons truly primitive vs other.
•
• Here is another link to comments they received from a different survey. https://publicinput.com/3yearseasonsetting
•
• Look in the tab for "Hunting Equipment and Hunter Orange" Here lists 260 comments they received 57% supporting the change & 43% against. I am unclear why they stated they received 78 comments in the meeting unless there are two surveys.
Post by: duckmen1 on March 27, 2024, 10:22:44 AM
QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?
I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.
More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.
And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.
And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.
I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.
Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.
If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.
Post by: Bob33 on March 27, 2024, 11:04:56 AM
I’m opposed to the idea with one caveat: we are losing hunters from our ranks, and particularly so with older hunters. The percentage of our state’s population that hunts is around three to four percent and dropping. I think the ability to use a 1x scope would keep more hunters engaged who otherwise might stop hunting.
If they become legal I would probably use one. I also believe it would result in some hunters shifting from modern to muzzleloader, and overall muzzleloader harvest would increase.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 27, 2024, 11:29:38 AM
Why does our opinion have to be one or the other? Yes i have a nuzzleloader that has a sealed breech and uses sabots and 209s, because its legal. If this rule changes, you can bet that i will also have an optical scope on my muzzy, because i can.QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?
I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.
More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.
And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.
And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.
I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.
Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.
If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.
At the same time, i wish the state would roll back all the rule advancements with muzzys and require side locks, and bore diameter lead.
Are we no longer allowed opinions, while at the same time maximizing what our rules will allow?
Post by: duckmen1 on March 27, 2024, 12:04:52 PM
Why does our opinion have to be one or the other? Yes i have a nuzzleloader that has a sealed breech and uses sabots and 209s, because its legal. If this rule changes, you can bet that i will also have an optical scope on my muzzy, because i can.QuoteAll seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law
ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology. That's the point. You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different. That is what the issue is.
At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc. Its a numbers game.
There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.
Everyone has an anecdotal story. Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls. That's tradition as I see it. Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots? Don't know. :dunno:
I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?
I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.
More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.
And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.
And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.
I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.
Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.
If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.
At the same time, i wish the state would roll back all the rule advancements with muzzys and require side locks, and bore diameter lead.
Are we no longer allowed opinions, while at the same time maximizing what our rules will allow?
We can all have opinions. Everyone is affected differently by the rule change or no rule change. I clearly said if you see the law pass and you want to stay primitive you can. If the law passes and you want to use the 1x scope more power to you. I don’t feel this law is the deciding factor to force one to use a 1x scope if they want to stay primitive. If someone wants to make the switch from modern to muzzy with a 1x scope great. Now they just lost yardage to shoot an animal making the switch as a muzzy doesn’t typically have the capability to shoot the same distance that modern can.
With that said I feel the overall increase in harvest would be more substantial in an elk season then a deer season do to popularity reasons and season timing. Also maybe the animals shot at may have a better recovery so another animal is not shot at after loosing a prior animal by said hunter. Maybe it will make it worse. Who knows. Success rates hopefully will shed a little light on that. But the biggest factor still is there. The hardest one of them all for most hunters. You still have to be successful in finding your target animal to take a shot.
Hearing folks complain that this will see a future reduction in hunting seasons reminds me of the excitement level east side folks were at in seeing increase season length and added tags for bears in 2019. Now the state commission is using that against the whole state for increased harvest. This state commission has agendas toward hunters clearly. And it is a sad state of affairs we are seeing with our game numbers. But there are so many more factors to why our animal numbers aren’t where they should be more so than a 1x sight on a muzzleloader. Right or wrong with that rule change our commission does not want to see thriving populations of ungulates. Which is sad to see. And they are using hunters against themselves in shutting down seasons or piecing it out.
So many variables and so many different opinions and thoughts to the matter is what makes this a great discussion. And yes I love the idea of a truly primitive season. That is where my roots started. I loved it. I love more primitive archery too. And can say I love when modern wasn’t seeing videos of hunters shooting across canyons 800 to 1200 yards too. I enjoy working for your animal in different ways than some. I enjoy stalking up close. That is what gets my excitement up. Some people have different views and like it the complete opposite. Great for them and their abilities to hunt differently and put a different kind of work in.
Post by: SuperX on March 27, 2024, 01:28:21 PM
Post by: GWP on March 27, 2024, 01:31:10 PM
No clothing not harvested and tanned by the person themselves, no powder not created by the person themselves, no lead not mined by the person themselves. The list is nearly endless! Think about how much fun that will be!
Post by: SuperX on March 27, 2024, 01:48:59 PM
And the best part, regardless if they change the law, is IF one stays 'primitive' then that person has the right and obligation to disparage anyone using any item they do not feel falls into their definition of primitive!Seen plenty of guys dressed in leathers hunting. the whole ad absurdum argument approach doesn't really solve anything but it is amusing. maybe instead of primitive we should say pre-historic and break out the atlatls!
No clothing not harvested and tanned by the person themselves, no powder not created by the person themselves, no lead not mined by the person themselves. The list is nearly endless! Think about how much fun that will be!
Post by: Pathfinder101 on March 27, 2024, 03:21:40 PM
I'm putting in for the Colockum because it has the best odds with only 3,245 applicants... :tup:
Post by: JakeLand on March 27, 2024, 07:29:35 PM
Post by: dilleytech on April 13, 2024, 10:51:16 AM
Post by: swanderek on April 16, 2024, 02:22:52 PM
I bet you start seeing more guys with 3-9x in their muzzleloader soon.
Post by: logola512c on April 30, 2024, 04:48:22 PM
Looks like red dots and 1x scopes are now legal. I guess I need to shop around for another red dot.
I saw on another thread (I looked but couldn't find it) where someone suggested that a red dot would have trouble holding zero on a muzzy because of the violent recoil of a muzzy compared to say, a 9mm pistol. Do folks agree with that? I would think the opposite would be true. Seems to me that if a red dot can stay zeroed on a slide that literally blows back a couple inches every shot that it could stay zeroed on top of a heavier rifle. But I'm kind of a muzzy and red dot retard. Double whammy stupid, one might say...
Post by: Cougeyes on May 01, 2024, 08:18:56 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 01, 2024, 08:24:39 AM
With the proposal for 1x scopes looking like more of a possibility this year, I'm curious if anyone has experience using them. Do you see a benefit of 1x scope over open sights like a Williams Peep sights.
My dad started me shooting scoped rifles at a very young age, I've never shot open sights very well as compared. I've used 1x scopes a few times and it just seemed more user friendly than open sights. I would say it depends what works best for each individual. And definitely is a person has vision issues open sights are nearly unusable for accurate shooting.
Post by: James on May 01, 2024, 08:27:08 AM
I ended up picking up a 1x Vortex Crossfire scope. The obvious is it provides a little better field of view than say a Williams Peep. Out at 100-150 yds, crosshairs still cover up a large portion of the target, similar to open sights. Overall i'm happy with it and i think it'll be better for me than open sights.
IIRC That Vortex crossfire has a 2MOA dot, are you thinking you would prefer a red dot that had a 1MOA dot?
I am waffling between a 1 MOA dot and 2 MOA dot.
Post by: Cougeyes on May 01, 2024, 09:16:19 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2024, 09:22:26 AM
I ended up picking up a 1x Vortex Crossfire scope. The obvious is it provides a little better field of view than say a Williams Peep. Out at 100-150 yds, crosshairs still cover up a large portion of the target, similar to open sights. Overall i'm happy with it and i think it'll be better for me than open sights.
IIRC That Vortex crossfire has a 2MOA dot, are you thinking you would prefer a red dot that had a 1MOA dot?
I am waffling between a 1 MOA dot and 2 MOA dot.
The Vortex doesn't have a dot.
Post by: northwesthunter84 on May 01, 2024, 12:06:43 PM
Post by: hendog on May 04, 2024, 09:49:48 AM
Post by: muleyslayer on May 04, 2024, 03:26:45 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on May 04, 2024, 04:32:42 PM
Post by: CBP1888 on May 04, 2024, 04:56:35 PM
Post by: JakeLand on May 04, 2024, 06:11:57 PM
1x on the knight mountaineer 45 caliber, hopefully she holds zero.I got mine mounted on my disc extreme and the scope looks high like yours with low mounts and rings , let us know if it works out please
Post by: muleyslayer on May 04, 2024, 08:42:00 PM
Will do!1x on the knight mountaineer 45 caliber, hopefully she holds zero.I got mine mounted on my disc extreme and the scope looks high like yours with low mounts and rings , let us know if it works out please
Post by: Irish_hunter93 on May 04, 2024, 10:19:29 PM
Just ordered a Leupold Freedom RDS 1x for mine. After some range time I will decide whether to use it or go back to the peep. But currently looking for rings and bases that will fit the red dot scope.
Leupold has its own mount for that red dot. I ordered a stainless steel base from Murphy precision for my knight. Will order that leupold red dot next paycheck and mount it and start shooting.
Post by: duckmen1 on May 05, 2024, 08:59:49 AM
Just ordered a Leupold Freedom RDS 1x for mine. After some range time I will decide whether to use it or go back to the peep. But currently looking for rings and bases that will fit the red dot scope.
Leupold has its own mount for that red dot. I ordered a stainless steel base from Murphy precision for my knight. Will order that leupold red dot next paycheck and mount it and start shooting.
Correct. I actually ordered the red dot without the mount. Because I have a knight bighorn I need a 2 piece base due to picatinni rails not giving clearance to put caps on. I checked if fhe one piece disign would work on my gun having a rail and it does not give the clearance needed. So in search of different options for 2 piece base and 34mm rings.
Post by: lazydrifter on May 05, 2024, 10:02:57 AM
Post by: JakeLand on May 05, 2024, 03:27:37 PM
Post by: Cougeyes on May 06, 2024, 03:03:52 PM
Post by: mtnwkr on May 07, 2024, 05:07:21 AM
Post by: muleyslayer on May 11, 2024, 02:57:09 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 11, 2024, 08:32:39 PM
Got on paper at 100 yards(2 shots where black stickers are),made the windage correction of 2 MOA to the left, and 6.5 MOA up. The scope seems to track well enough to achieve a rough zero. My last shot (ran out of pre made loads) was just above the bulleye as I hoped. I need to shoot some more, but so far so good.That is with a crossfire 1x?
Post by: muleyslayer on May 11, 2024, 08:56:35 PM
Yes, toilet paper tube view at a 100 yards, but still better then a peep sight in my opinion.Got on paper at 100 yards(2 shots where black stickers are),made the windage correction of 2 MOA to the left, and 6.5 MOA up. The scope seems to track well enough to achieve a rough zero. My last shot (ran out of pre made loads) was just above the bulleye as I hoped. I need to shoot some more, but so far so good.That is with a crossfire 1x?
Post by: CBP1888 on May 12, 2024, 10:42:45 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on May 12, 2024, 05:38:23 PM
I have a new vortex 1x muzzleloader scope. $275 if anyone interested. Located in Maple Valley. Decided to stick with my Aimpoint.
Tried sending you a PM. with a question, but your inbox is full.
Post by: JakeLand on May 13, 2024, 12:14:33 PM
Post by: mtnwkr on May 13, 2024, 12:26:59 PM
Kinda spendy for that scope
Yeah, glad I got mine for $59.
Post by: hendog on May 13, 2024, 04:48:23 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 13, 2024, 05:02:48 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 13, 2024, 05:06:04 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 13, 2024, 05:37:51 PM
And there's going to be a bunch for sale in August when guys realize after shooting all summer they can't hold zero.. :chuckle:But vortex forever warranty. :chuckle:
Post by: muleyslayer on May 13, 2024, 07:06:49 PM
Post by: Dan-o on May 13, 2024, 07:43:43 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 13, 2024, 08:09:09 PM
My bet is that most of us who put on Vortex 1X scopes will be quite happy we did. I guess time will tell.I hope so, and i agree most people will be plenty satisfied.
Im just not willing to trust my vacation time and effort/expense to a $100 scope, from a manufacturer not known for reliability.
Post by: JakeLand on May 13, 2024, 08:46:04 PM
Post by: Dan-o on May 13, 2024, 08:50:07 PM
I totally understand. And I love reliability.My bet is that most of us who put on Vortex 1X scopes will be quite happy we did. I guess time will tell.I hope so, and i agree most people will be plenty satisfied.
Im just not willing to trust my vacation time and effort/expense to a $100 scope, from a manufacturer not known for reliability.
But my poor old eyes really need a scope, so I'm going for it and hoping for the best. :tup:
Post by: dilleytech on May 14, 2024, 11:35:11 AM
I shot a ton using it 2 years ago and it held ! I’m not a vortex boy but I’m happy with the results I had and have
Zero issues with any of my vortex products. “10 ish scopes/binos”
Post by: muleyslayer on May 14, 2024, 12:17:40 PM
I shot a ton using it 2 years ago and it held ! I’m not a vortex boy but I’m happy with the results I had and have
[/quote
:tup:
Post by: muleyslayer on May 14, 2024, 12:21:31 PM
I shot a ton using it 2 years ago and it held ! I’m not a vortex boy but I’m happy with the results I had and have
Zero issues with any of my vortex products. “10 ish scopes/binos”
I’ve had a spotter, binos, and rangefinder. I had issues with all of them, but I wil admit the spotter and binos were my fault. I dropped my spotter, and I screwed up the eye cup on my binos during a belly crawling stalk. The 4000 rangefinder just completely quit working after a year. I had never owned a vortex rifle scope until now.
Post by: duckmen1 on May 16, 2024, 03:49:45 PM
Remington 541 2 piece bases fit the knight bighorn and bolt actions. Gives you some options. I use the Leupold Quick Release bases on my Knights. Easy to take off while cleaning. Leupold lists 34mm rings for those bases. With the rings locked into the bases you have about 2 1/2" of mounting space between them. According to the specs of the Leupold RDS it should fit just fine.
I may have to try this. Only real concern with these rings is the lowest rings I see available are high rings. It may make the scope sit extremely high.
Just tried the Warne Maxima bases with low Warne Mountain Tech rings. Did not work. The scope still would have set a bit high with the low rings which is why I have concern with the leupold high rings but the combo of warne set the rings approximate an 1/8 to 1/4 inch to wide for the scope to sit in rings. Took two weeks to get those rings and bases ordered. Now have to return. This leupold red dot with the 34 mm tube is going to have limited options for the knight bighorn having to have narrow rings due too 2 piece base and such a short scope.
Post by: Irish_hunter93 on May 16, 2024, 03:55:36 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on May 16, 2024, 05:14:11 PM
What width did you have on the ring spacing? I have right at 3 3/4" from outside ring to outside ringRemington 541 2 piece bases fit the knight bighorn and bolt actions. Gives you some options. I use the Leupold Quick Release bases on my Knights. Easy to take off while cleaning. Leupold lists 34mm rings for those bases. With the rings locked into the bases you have about 2 1/2" of mounting space between them. According to the specs of the Leupold RDS it should fit just fine.
I may have to try this. Only real concern with these rings is the lowest rings I see available are high rings. It may make the scope sit extremely high.
Just tried the Warne Maxima bases with low Warne Mountain Tech rings. Did not work. The scope still would have set a bit high with the low rings which is why I have concern with the leupold high rings but the combo of warne set the rings approximate an 1/8 to 1/4 inch to wide for the scope to sit in rings. Took two weeks to get those rings and bases ordered. Now have to return. This leupold red dot with the 34 mm tube is going to have limited options for the knight bighorn having to have narrow rings due too 2 piece base and such a short scope.
Post by: JakeLand on May 16, 2024, 06:13:40 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on May 16, 2024, 06:47:31 PM
What width did you have on the ring spacing? I have right at 3 3/4" from outside ring to outside ringRemington 541 2 piece bases fit the knight bighorn and bolt actions. Gives you some options. I use the Leupold Quick Release bases on my Knights. Easy to take off while cleaning. Leupold lists 34mm rings for those bases. With the rings locked into the bases you have about 2 1/2" of mounting space between them. According to the specs of the Leupold RDS it should fit just fine.
I may have to try this. Only real concern with these rings is the lowest rings I see available are high rings. It may make the scope sit extremely high.
Just tried the Warne Maxima bases with low Warne Mountain Tech rings. Did not work. The scope still would have set a bit high with the low rings which is why I have concern with the leupold high rings but the combo of warne set the rings approximate an 1/8 to 1/4 inch to wide for the scope to sit in rings. Took two weeks to get those rings and bases ordered. Now have to return. This leupold red dot with the 34 mm tube is going to have limited options for the knight bighorn having to have narrow rings due too 2 piece base and such a short scope.
So my rings were about 3 3/8s inch wide at widest points. I can't really go wider than 3 3/16s inch on the scope. This would be an easy solution with a picatini rail. But can't run that on the bighorn. Really like and commited to the leupold red dot so have to find something that works for it.
It seems like your rings would be smaller than the warne only haveing the one mounting screw vs the warne having two making the over all ring wider. But maybe K am wrong on the size difference thought.
On the quick release rings as pictured I am wondering about flipping one around having both quick release levers closest to each other to shorten the gap. If it hangs over the action a bit that is ok as long as I have room to cap and for the scope to mount and keep tight.
Post by: duckmen1 on May 16, 2024, 06:49:31 PM
Leupold makes an ultra low ring setup with the quick. Inject bases , i ordered them to get mine to drop lower
I don't see any ultra low, low, mediums listed from leupold site for 34 mm. Lowest they list is high
Post by: Crunchy on May 16, 2024, 07:26:30 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on May 17, 2024, 05:35:08 AM
Post by: Antlershed on May 17, 2024, 08:27:39 AM
Great ideas so far. Keep them coming, I want to pull the trigger on something for my CVA Accura LR-XFor the LRX, you can just get the picatinny rail and then use whatever rings you want.
Post by: JakeLand on May 17, 2024, 06:39:06 PM
they’re called super low for a 1” ringLeupold makes an ultra low ring setup with the quick. Inject bases , i ordered them to get mine to drop lower
I don't see any ultra low, low, mediums listed from leupold site for 34 mm. Lowest they list is high
Post by: millerwheeler on May 17, 2024, 08:00:18 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on May 17, 2024, 08:12:57 PM
they’re called super low for a 1” ringLeupold makes an ultra low ring setup with the quick. Inject bases , i ordered them to get mine to drop lower
I don't see any ultra low, low, mediums listed from leupold site for 34 mm. Lowest they list is high
Right they do for 1inch rings. I am needing 34 mm rings. They only make high or extra high for 34mm in that style.
Post by: duckmen1 on May 17, 2024, 08:37:58 PM
My Bighorn has 3 mounting holes for the rear base. You can slide the rear scope base forward by 1/2" by using the the 2 front mounting screws. It will overhang the rear part of the exposed breach by about 1/2". By using those 2 forward mounting holes it give an inside ring spacing of 2 1/8" and the outside ring spacing is 3 1/4".
Thanks for the info. I will order these rings and bases and give it a try. They will be really close to maxing out but I think they will fit. As far as having to get high rings hopefully it won't sit crazy high. But if it is high I will mount a raised cheek weld pad onto the stock. Will update once they come in on if it works and how it does.
Post by: lamrith on May 18, 2024, 09:24:36 AM
I have a removable one I use on my 308. Works really well and has a couple diff inserts to dial in height. Made word of difference in my shooting with the gun. Will try and find a link and post it.My Bighorn has 3 mounting holes for the rear base. You can slide the rear scope base forward by 1/2" by using the the 2 front mounting screws. It will overhang the rear part of the exposed breach by about 1/2". By using those 2 forward mounting holes it give an inside ring spacing of 2 1/8" and the outside ring spacing is 3 1/4".
Thanks for the info. I will order these rings and bases and give it a try. They will be really close to maxing out but I think they will fit. As far as having to get high rings hopefully it won't sit crazy high. But if it is high I will mount a raised cheek weld pad onto the stock. Will update once they come in on if it works and how it does.
This is the one I have on my 308. I noticed they also make a bunch of different ones, some in leather etc to fit your personal preference. I like the nylon and velcro as I as able to cinch it down very very tight, so it not move all over during a day of hiking the hills. I can feel confident brining the gun up without having to worry about cheek weld being shifted all over.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017K3Z48W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Post by: Irish_hunter93 on May 24, 2024, 04:29:35 PM
Post by: Irish_hunter93 on May 24, 2024, 04:57:06 PM
Post by: PA BEN on May 24, 2024, 06:59:09 PM
https://eabco.com/peeprib-peep-sights-for-cva-optima-kodiak-wolf-and-accura/
Post by: duckmen1 on May 28, 2024, 05:06:31 PM
I have a removable one I use on my 308. Works really well and has a couple diff inserts to dial in height. Made word of difference in my shooting with the gun. Will try and find a link and post it.My Bighorn has 3 mounting holes for the rear base. You can slide the rear scope base forward by 1/2" by using the the 2 front mounting screws. It will overhang the rear part of the exposed breach by about 1/2". By using those 2 forward mounting holes it give an inside ring spacing of 2 1/8" and the outside ring spacing is 3 1/4".
Thanks for the info. I will order these rings and bases and give it a try. They will be really close to maxing out but I think they will fit. As far as having to get high rings hopefully it won't sit crazy high. But if it is high I will mount a raised cheek weld pad onto the stock. Will update once they come in on if it works and how it does.
This is the one I have on my 308. I noticed they also make a bunch of different ones, some in leather etc to fit your personal preference. I like the nylon and velcro as I as able to cinch it down very very tight, so it not move all over during a day of hiking the hills. I can feel confident brining the gun up without having to worry about cheek weld being shifted all over.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017K3Z48W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Got the Knight Bighorn combo set up with the removable leupold high rings and bases 541. Just got the setup all mounted. It all fit. But I can say it is maxed out spacing wise for what the scope will accept. But it works and I am happy for sure. It is a little high mounted over barrel but not as much as I expected. So happy about that. I have ordered a cheek riser for little extra comfort fit and that should be here in a couple days. Can’t wait to get it out and shoot it and see how much difference it makes. I will set up a protective guard under scope to protect the scope from the open breech. Have some other thoughts for the gun to but just little mods along the way. Should be smooth sailing getting ready for hunting season now. Appreciate the info from all that have contributed in questions and ideas toward the subject for what seems so foreign to us with these 1x scopes on muzzleloaders.
Post by: lazydrifter on May 28, 2024, 05:32:28 PM
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 29, 2024, 05:25:59 PM
After looking at all the red dots i could find, the RMR as top pf the heap IMO.
Post by: Goshawk on June 03, 2024, 04:06:03 PM
With the proposal for 1x scopes looking like more of a possibility this year, I'm curious if anyone has experience using them. Do you see a benefit of 1x scope over open sights like a Williams Peep sights.
More accurate, especially in low light, fog, rain, etc.
Post by: howlow on June 03, 2024, 04:22:00 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on June 03, 2024, 11:14:00 PM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
Post by: Antlershed on June 04, 2024, 08:46:12 AM
Curious what you mean by accuracy of adjustments? Were you using the turret to dial for longer ranges, or just adjusting for your 100 yard sight-in?Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
Post by: duckmen1 on June 04, 2024, 11:12:51 AM
Curious what you mean by accuracy of adjustments? Were you using the turret to dial for longer ranges, or just adjusting for your 100 yard sight-in?Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
Adjustments during 100 yard sight in. First group was around 2 3/4 inch. Lowered 4 moa and went left 2 moa on adjustment. Should have been in bullseye. Shot another group at 1 3/4 inch. It had actually lowered 8 moa and not moved at all left. Continued a number of groups and kept either seeing 1/2 moa adjustment not 1/4 inch adjustments per scope. Or no change at all with left and right adjustments. Groups were good. Maybe it was me a little on left and right as we are still only looking through one power on a red dot. Idk. But overall sight picture appeared very well. More range time will tell. In general I never had any flyers. And held groups well. Can’t wait to get back out and spend more time with it. And give better follow up.
Post by: James on June 04, 2024, 03:19:30 PM
Local sportsman said alot of people buying red dots and a removable magnifier for there muzzle loaders.
This is my plan, use the removable magnifier to assist sight in at the range, pull it off to go hunting.
Post by: jrebel on June 05, 2024, 10:03:04 PM
Anyone else trying an eotech??
Post by: GurrCentral on June 05, 2024, 10:08:02 PM
Post by: Dan-o on June 05, 2024, 10:13:51 PM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
@duckmen1
I need a cheek riser and that one looks good.
How do you like it?
what brand?
thanks.
Post by: duckmen1 on June 05, 2024, 10:49:22 PM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
@duckmen1
I need a cheek riser and that one looks good.
How do you like it?
what brand?
thanks.
WAYNE'S DOG Leather Rifle Gun Buttstock Cover, Non-Slip Cheek Rest Pad
From Amazon
I like it a lot. Easy to get on and off when cleaning. Looks good. Very solid on gun without any slippage issues. Comes with 3 thickness pads. Or can use without added cheek height. Only thing I can say is the pads are fairly thick. I am running the lowest one which works for me. But for some they might need to do a slight mod thinning underside of pad a little to make pad a little lower depending on scope height and stock. But overall that would be easy to do if needed. But I like it a lot.
Did a quick shoot today. Set target at 100 yards. Tried aiming at a much bigger dot of 6 inches just to see target sight. Made a quick adjustment from last day. And sent 3 down range. Dead center in circle with all 3 shots. No more than 3 inch group but perfect left to right in bullseye. So scope tracked as I hoped. Was limited on time and can't shoot further distances that I want at range I was at so will go further on another day. Overall I am liking my setup. Little high maintinence with open breach design keeping powder flash off scope and having to clean muzzle brake and such but working out great for me.
Post by: Dan-o on June 06, 2024, 12:03:20 AM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
@duckmen1
I need a cheek riser and that one looks good.
How do you like it?
what brand?
thanks.
WAYNE'S DOG Leather Rifle Gun Buttstock Cover, Non-Slip Cheek Rest Pad
From Amazon
I like it a lot. Easy to get on and off when cleaning. Looks good. Very solid on gun without any slippage issues. Comes with 3 thickness pads. Or can use without added cheek height. Only thing I can say is the pads are fairly thick. I am running the lowest one which works for me. But for some they might need to do a slight mod thinning underside of pad a little to make pad a little lower depending on scope height and stock. But overall that would be easy to do if needed. But I like it a lot.
Did a quick shoot today. Set target at 100 yards. Tried aiming at a much bigger dot of 6 inches just to see target sight. Made a quick adjustment from last day. And sent 3 down range. Dead center in circle with all 3 shots. No more than 3 inch group but perfect left to right in bullseye. So scope tracked as I hoped. Was limited on time and can't shoot further distances that I want at range I was at so will go further on another day. Overall I am liking my setup. Little high maintinence with open breach design keeping powder flash off scope and having to clean muzzle brake and such but working out great for me.
Thanks.
Post by: lamrith on June 06, 2024, 05:35:32 AM
I just got the Vortex Crossfire 2, will report back when I get it mounted and some range time. We'll see, will give it a whirl.Where did you find it in stock?
Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: dub870 on June 06, 2024, 04:49:31 PM
Post by: GurrCentral on June 06, 2024, 05:24:05 PM
I just got the Vortex Crossfire 2, will report back when I get it mounted and some range time. We'll see, will give it a whirl.Where did you find it in stock?
Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
Epic, but I believe they sold out shortly after I ordered.
Post by: Antlershed on June 06, 2024, 08:40:45 PM
Post by: Caseknife on June 06, 2024, 08:43:11 PM
https://www.sigsauer.com/romeo4h-1x20-mm.html
Post by: James on June 11, 2024, 09:05:27 AM
Just found that the Sig Romeo4 has a bullet drop reticle.
https://www.sigsauer.com/romeo4h-1x20-mm.html
Good find.
I also found this one has a bullet drop reticle.
https://www.amazon.com/Holosun-Paralow-HS503G-Reticle-Function/dp/B01G9ED83G/ref=sr_1_3?crid=12IGQDML61W8J&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cZXTf_33HKu6TsXzQzRyxf9B5c-IFkc5N9YTp5yLPYbW-u7ZyVgNcKeQ80wiOY9tLlGCqH8CyfjYzx-LHjHVCM6DnJFse44Wau2bV2CJ5GHxJEars2g9P3ZceQmr6PJk2LhOcvStTbGg3AeyQpEHAj5AzsIBLk6UIUXRV4x80qibAab-81UmdXRQAYaCBWTVh2OlIPlUzBI2bv8mdGQMtMWS0Ym81zOwb8cBxuDTq1kywVGzU-KA9Txbh-jRzoX1QIxOq6uunk06U0txjp6yyrMwLvy4Ot4QViNE9w9PFwo.v2sb6TfBqAwfIfIsqWliZsQ6wp7miD0NlPOIZUSpf48&dib_tag=se&keywords=red+dot+ACSS+CQB&qid=1718121873&sprefix=red+dot+acss+cqb%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-3
Post by: JasonG on June 11, 2024, 01:09:29 PM
Still need to get it out and shoot, but got everything mounted up with the RDS.pm sent
Post by: Dan-o on June 12, 2024, 11:56:18 PM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
@duckmen1
I have a Knight Bighorn and am looking for 2-piece mounts like yours, but having trouble finding them.
What kind of mounts are those?
Thanks!
Post by: duckmen1 on June 13, 2024, 09:22:30 AM
Perfect. Post a picture. I see that Sportsman warehouse has the Leupold RDS red dots on sale.
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644552
https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-gear-supplies/optics-binoculars-scopes-rangefinders/red-dots/leupold-freedom-rds-1x34mm-233-bdc-with-mount-1-moa-red-dot-black/p/1644554
First range day. Loved running the red dot. Averaged 2 to 3 inch groups with 5 three shot groups at 100 yards. Still have to spend time behind the gun to get more familiar with if the adjustments are as accurate as they are supposed to be. Few adjustments were not seeming to be but future days will tell. Overall love the setup with the cheek riser. Only concern is accuracy of adjustments. But when not running adjustments accuracy was good and consistant groups. Very clear sight picture.
@duckmen1
I have a Knight Bighorn and am looking for 2-piece mounts like yours, but having trouble finding them.
What kind of mounts are those?
Thanks!
This base with rings do work on the gun. Due to the size of the Red dot Tube and not being able to use a picatini rail on the Night BigHorn you have to have the front base turned facing over the action a little. It does work. The rings are the max width that the scope tube can accept.
Leupold QR Remington 541 2 piece base
Leupold QR Steel scope rings 34mm high
Post by: WSU on June 13, 2024, 09:42:02 AM
Post by: lazydrifter on June 13, 2024, 10:30:04 AM
Will the bases that fit the bighorn fit a disc extreme?Yes. I have both a disc extreme and a bighorn. Same bases fit both rifles and the screw hole spacing is exactly the same. For the Leupold Quick Release bases you want to buy Remington 541 bases.
Post by: JakeLand on June 30, 2024, 03:26:35 PM
Post by: Dan-o on June 30, 2024, 04:23:32 PM
Dialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
NICE
Post by: redi on June 30, 2024, 04:32:01 PM
Post by: Cougartail on June 30, 2024, 04:36:28 PM
Dialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
What is the size of the group? One inch bullseye?
Post by: JakeLand on July 01, 2024, 04:46:25 AM
it’s got to be a couple inch bullseye , still got to get it tightened up a bit but I still got timeDialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
What is the size of the group? One inch bullseye?
Definitely a improvement over open sights for some things but I think if hunting in thick dense Westside terrain open sights are better
Post by: Cougartail on July 01, 2024, 09:29:43 AM
I put the 1x Vortex on my G4 and had 3 out of 4 touching at 40 yards. Hopefully I'll get 21/2 to 3 at 100.it’s got to be a couple inch bullseye , still got to get it tightened up a bit but I still got timeDialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
What is the size of the group? One inch bullseye?
Definitely a improvement over open sights for some things but I think if hunting in thick dense Westside terrain open sights are better
It's been a long road for me. Started at 18" at 40!
The scope definitely helped as I was still 4" to 6" without it at 40 yards.
Post by: muleyslayer on July 01, 2024, 12:13:50 PM
Dialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scopeNice group! I noticed my groups tightened up at 100 yards with the 1x vortex. The scope does have a thick crosshair, but I’m still shooting better than I did with peep sights.
Post by: lewy on July 01, 2024, 01:38:39 PM
Post by: dc on July 29, 2024, 07:23:25 AM
Post by: Dark2Dark on July 30, 2024, 12:20:09 AM
I put the 1x Vortex on my G4 and had 3 out of 4 touching at 40 yards. Hopefully I'll get 21/2 to 3 at 100.
It's been a long road for me. Started at 18" at 40!
The scope definitely helped as I was still 4" to 6" without it at 40 yards.
Is this a gun issue or are you just learning/practicing?
A lot of modern muzzleloader seem to be able to shoot MOA groups, maybe a little bigger. With a 1x scope I’ll be expecting touching groups with 1/2” slugs!
Post by: Dark2Dark on July 30, 2024, 12:21:13 AM
I’ve had the opposite issue. For me it’s hard to gather light with a peep site in thick stuff. Especially in the mornings and evenings when you most likely find elk.it’s got to be a couple inch bullseye , still got to get it tightened up a bit but I still got timeDialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
What is the size of the group? One inch bullseye?
Definitely a improvement over open sights for some things but I think if hunting in thick dense Westside terrain open sights are better
Post by: HntnFsh on July 30, 2024, 05:49:42 AM
I’ve had the opposite issue. For me it’s hard to gather light with a peep site in thick stuff. Especially in the mornings and evenings when you most likely find elk.it’s got to be a couple inch bullseye , still got to get it tightened up a bit but I still got timeDialed in pretty good today , final 3 shot group at 100 yards with the disc extreme and the vortex 1X scope
What is the size of the group? One inch bullseye?
Definitely a improvement over open sights for some things but I think if hunting in thick dense Westside terrain open sights are better
That is exactly why I took the peeps off of mine and my sons muzzys. Cost me at least 1 elk.
Post by: kyles_88 on August 05, 2024, 01:05:22 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on August 05, 2024, 05:38:37 AM
Post by: kyles_88 on August 05, 2024, 02:27:33 PM
That looks good! What prism are you using?
It's a vortex spitfire 1x. I initially thought I would use it just until a traditional 1x scope was available. But after shooting over 100 shots with it I'm fairly impressed. It holds zero with 100gr 777 and 300gr bullet recoil. And I really like the super fine center dot obscures very little of the target.
https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Optics-Spitfire-Prism-Scope/dp/B01AWB2UHW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=2314S41NA0QCY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.6k8dfBIdvfdjJ0kcw5MN3GPRVJWirPZ58G6P-Jy8Pz10q08ro5KVZNgRXi-YgQtPaqi7_1Olx5By1v4Q1PB0ehn-Cwf2IursQjG_J_nps1R3RJIQwR9rrzDlvyIKI6Fq1aYxuPaMzMMbKJLOR777hLwuu0vl92os8xisJR_RsNbZRIQTkIv2FzeffXQ7RSAi-5EcYPvCBtN-G-ZX3RFKpQ.xprZn287-KXeLDYa18bej8SG-5YTGW0CPlXkt6vrpUk&dib_tag=se&keywords=1x+prism+scope&qid=1722892819&sprefix=1x+%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3
Post by: HntnFsh on August 06, 2024, 07:03:27 PM
Post by: JBar on August 15, 2024, 01:59:32 PM
Post by: gallion_t on August 15, 2024, 03:06:58 PM
PSA: Big J’s got a shipment of the Crossfire II 1X scopes in, $139
The one time I wish I was still on the Westside!
I'm on about list to get notified when one comes back in stock. If anyone happens to grab an extra I'll happily pay for it along with shipping and some extra to have a drink or two on me.
Post by: lamrith on August 15, 2024, 03:12:18 PM
PSA: Big J’s got a shipment of the Crossfire II 1X scopes in, $139Big J's?
Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: gallion_t on August 15, 2024, 03:16:34 PM
PSA: Big J’s got a shipment of the Crossfire II 1X scopes in, $139Big J's?
Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
Sporting goods store in downtown Orting