Post by: 4ptbuck on June 18, 2009, 01:24:25 AM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 18, 2009, 02:56:35 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 18, 2009, 07:22:55 AM
Post by: wastickslinger on June 18, 2009, 07:39:23 AM
Post by: Bob33 on June 18, 2009, 07:52:17 AM
NV: http://ndow.org/hunt/apps/bonus/2008/2008_res_elk_bonus_points.pdf
Scroll to page three and look under the column for 161-164E. There were 31 resident applicants with 16 points. One drew.
The best tags will always be hard to draw. If they were easy, they would no longer be quality tags. What would the bull quality be in Margaret (Wenaha, Dayton, you name it) if the state offered 1000 permits each year in these units?
Sad but true: most of us will end up with lots of unused points. I know I will.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 18, 2009, 08:23:59 AM
Post by: General Disarray on June 18, 2009, 08:36:43 AM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 18, 2009, 08:38:35 AM
Post by: B.G.hunter on June 18, 2009, 08:48:09 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 18, 2009, 08:59:57 AM
Also permits are only $5.
All fees will go up 20% soon. Wouldn't surprise me if it were July 1 By the way 14 pts elk = nuthin if youre after a Colockum tag
Post by: shanevg on June 18, 2009, 09:23:49 AM
The real flaw with the system is that many of the young hunters are getting less and less of a chance of ever getting drawn. Like Shane(WA) said, the hunters that start applying 10 years from now are going to be at such a disadvantage that they will never realistically have a chance of drawing a coveted tag. I like the following suggestion:
why not come out and set a maximum point number of say 20? Then instead of squaring your point total, cube it or more and give those with max points that much better odds while still giving everyone a shot.
That way, people with max points will definitely have a huge advantage of people with less, but it will still be possible for younger hunters to catch up to the max. It really is the only way to solve the problem of our point system.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 18, 2009, 09:55:39 AM
Post by: Ihookum on June 18, 2009, 10:58:10 AM
I would like too see the choices go back to "one choice". I think that making people choose between a "trophy" hunt and a lesser hunt will free up alot of numbers. I've always put in for less known, harder work hunts and had great success. I guess I've come to realize that I'm never going to draw a Dessert or Margret tag. But, there are alot of tags that I can get with better draw odds and will get a fine animal of the same class.
Post by: Branden on June 18, 2009, 11:15:10 AM
I really am getting sick of all these complaints about how stupid WA's system is.
Agreed. It is far better then Colorado's where u have no chance of drawing the best units.
Two things that I think would make it easier to get a premium tag in this state would be, 1 choice on your application per species, and choosing between putting in for the special permit for that species and general season. Obviously it wouldn't affect OIL tags as much but would help if you really wanted to hunt some of the better deer and elk draws.
Post by: General Disarray on June 18, 2009, 11:42:01 AM
How about dropping the choices down to 1 or 2 per application and having a prelim drawing using your points and a leftover drawing that would put everyone who wants in on leftover cow/doe/whatever tags without taking your points away?
I don't have a problem with the current system, yet. I see potential problems down the road.
Post by: steeleywhopper on June 18, 2009, 11:48:56 AM
Post by: shanevg on June 18, 2009, 11:58:23 AM
I think cubeing the points at a certain number just adds to the problem. Soon you will just have larger and larger point totals and people still not drawing.
I would like too see the choices go back to "one choice". I think that making people choose between a "trophy" hunt and a lesser hunt will free up alot of numbers. I've always put in for less known, harder work hunts and had great success. I guess I've come to realize that I'm never going to draw a Dessert or Margret tag. But, there are alot of tags that I can get with better draw odds and will get a fine animal of the same class.
I agree completely. When I said the cubing is a good idea, I meant that only if there is a cap, and once you reached the cap, your points were cubed. That way, everyone would still have some chance of being drawn, but your chances once you reached a (say 20 point) cap would be extremely increased. This would also allow for all the younger hunters to have a chance to catch up... eventually.
I also think that we should go down to only one choice per species. I also think we should only be allowed to apply for one OIL species, and have to send the tag money in up front. If we did it like Idaho where you could only apply deer+elk or sheep or moose or goat with one choice per species, the odds would go up exponentially. If that was the way the state went, you could even keep points going, because the odds would increase so much that you could actually cycle through max point holders. This was proposed this past year though and hunters shot down the idea because they are greedy and think that by having more options and being able to apply for more species they have better odds of getting drawn. I tried to explain the only one option per species idea to a friend at school once and he said that there was no way that would increase odds of getting drawn. Of course it would! Yet another option is going through all the first choices of hunters before going to second, third, and fourth. That would essentially make it only one choice per species except it would also appease hunters who want to have 4 choices.
Post by: B.G.hunter on June 18, 2009, 12:56:14 PM
Post by: ACCUBOND on June 18, 2009, 03:51:54 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on June 18, 2009, 04:04:26 PM
Post by: Blacktail killer on June 18, 2009, 04:05:59 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on June 18, 2009, 04:07:21 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 18, 2009, 04:09:08 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on June 18, 2009, 04:16:20 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on June 18, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Shane you say people with the most points get draw and thats how washington dose it. can I say *censored*tttt i have a buddy that has drawn eniat deer tags 3 out of 4 years and have another friend who drew a elk tag that only gives 4 permits with 2 points I have never ever drew any thing. :stup: :mor:
Wow, someone's bitter! Certainly there is some luck involved, just like I'm sure there have been people who won PowerBall and only bought one ticket. But no question, people with more points draw the majority of the good permits. Just look at the distribution summary. If you don't have a chance to draw with only a few points, even if your changes are really slim, people will stop buying licenses and applying.
I like our system - I think it's a good balance between rewarding long timers and giving newbies some chance. Preference systems discourage new hunters. States that don't square points leave too much to random chance. I like our balance. :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on June 18, 2009, 04:30:14 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on June 18, 2009, 05:29:06 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on June 18, 2009, 05:44:42 PM
I think its about the best system out there, like Wacous said it gives everyone a chance and is weighted toward the long time applicants. :twocents:--Totally wrong! When you have the thousands of people that have 5Pt's or less they are going to get the majority of the tags! Not the long time applicants fault that applying for permits got so popular within the last 5to 8 years. With the pearrygin tag avg points at only five that means lots of guys are drawing with like 3 and 4 Pt's. Total BS, We need some sorta minimum Pt's to apply for certain tags or percentage of tags to guys at the top of the Pt's list!!
Post by: Blacktail killer on June 18, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
Post by: Brushbuster on June 18, 2009, 08:14:29 PM
Post by: Alan K on June 18, 2009, 08:17:26 PM
These guys who draw great tags seemingly every year or every other year are exceptions not the rule. With 10 points you are 100 times more likely to draw over someone with 0. I'm perfectly happy with those odds. If someone draws over me with those odds, congrats to them on their luck, and I hope I get as lucky as them when I'm back down at their point level.
I would be absolutely opposed to choosing deer/elk or OIL, but would be all for limiting hunt choices. I'd much rather see it be two choices with the following: All first choices would be selected first, then any left over tags would be drawn out to the second choice people without effecting their accumulated points. If there are still tags left even after second choicers draw, the remaining would be sold at a first come first serve basis over the counter.
Post by: billythekidrock on June 18, 2009, 08:20:46 PM
I think that a really good way to give everyone a better chance is to not allow anyone to put in for 2 years once they have drawn a tag. Allow them to get the points but not give them the opportunity to draw every single year.
I was thinking the same thing but with only a one year wait and the guy I mentioned it to said no one would go for it. An idea similar to this, along with a 50% allocation to those with 10 or more points might be goo. It might not be the best way, but like I said above, it is an option worth looking at.
Post by: furbearer365 on June 18, 2009, 08:40:39 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 18, 2009, 08:45:48 PM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 18, 2009, 11:11:55 PM
Post by: javman on June 19, 2009, 12:00:36 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 12:04:58 AM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 19, 2009, 04:52:40 AM
Post by: KillBilly on June 19, 2009, 05:12:23 AM
Of course the person with 14 points has multiple more possibilities/odds of being pulled but odds are odds, sometimes a person with 1 point can be pulled and defy odds. that's whay makes it exciting for everyone.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 19, 2009, 05:16:51 AM
Post by: rasbo on June 19, 2009, 05:21:01 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 19, 2009, 05:29:32 AM
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 19, 2009, 05:34:39 AM
Post by: Sawbuck on June 19, 2009, 06:04:51 AM
I really don't think being limited to one choice will improve odds much. Sure it will on some permits, but on others odds will be worse. I mean think about it... there will still be the same number of hunters applying, and the same number of permits. When the numbers stay the same how can the overall odds change? I'm thinking odds for less desirable permits like the antlerless permits, will get better, but the best hunts for bucks and bulls will be harder to draw.I could be wrong, but wouldn't limiting to one choice reduce the number of applicants for each hunt?
Post by: billythekidrock on June 19, 2009, 06:16:39 AM
I really don't think being limited to one choice will improve odds much. Sure it will on some permits, but on others odds will be worse. I mean think about it... there will still be the same number of hunters applying, and the same number of permits. When the numbers stay the same how can the overall odds change? I'm thinking odds for less desirable permits like the antlerless permits, will get better, but the best hunts for bucks and bulls will be harder to draw.I could be wrong, but wouldn't limiting to one choice reduce the number of applicants for each hunt?
Yes, but it would reduce them across the board so in that respect the potential odds stay the same. But if it goes to 1 choice then some permits may spike higher since people have to make a narrower choice. The permits that will be easier will probably tend to be antlerless, damage hunts or some of the extra bull hunts. You know, the ones that people throw on as a "hail mary".
I was looking at the 5 permits in the Quinault and 4 people drew as first choice and one as fourth choice. That 4th choice person probably doesnt know the unit and applied only because it was a bull hunt. There were over a hundred guys that wanted that hunt as a first or only choice. If it were down to two choices it would force guys to apply for the unit they want and not just apply for anything to fill the application.
Same with the bigger bull hunts. On the westside make the guys decide between Margaret, Toutle, Green River and Nooksack instead of applying for all 4 and rasing the odds for every unit.
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 09:20:28 AM
I guess what needs to be explained is the number of people applying for permits, lets say moose, you have 12,000 applying for this tag and 5,000 applying for this one, where do they get this number? do they count people in every drawing?If you applied for 4 choices are you counted in those 4 permit numbers? If thats the case and u had to pick 1 odds would be better, there were a few 2nd and 3rd choice pulls this year that would be eliminated and those tags would be the 1 choice people.I just dont get how someone pulls a tag with their 3 rd choice with 5 pts when a guy has 14 and his first.
I've tried to explain this countless times on this board. Every hunt you apply for counts as an application for that hunt. It doesn't make any difference what order you list them on your application. If you look at the Special Hunt Permit Drawing Summary, you will see that there was 21,407 people who applied for a moose permit. Now if they went to only one choice (or two) on the applications, the number of people applying is not going to change. The number of permits also being the same, then therefore the odds of drawing will remain at 1 in 155, without taking points into account. That's the overall odds for all moose permits combined, some will be much worse, and some better (like the youth or antlerless only permits.) So all that would change is that some permits would be easier to draw, and some harder. The same is true of the deer and elk permits.
Here is a statement which is new this year at the bottom of the draw result summaries:
Quote
*Aside from the overall species total, "Total # of Applications" means the total of all occurrences of the hunt or hunt category having been applied for.
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 19, 2009, 09:50:58 AM
Post by: winston2789 on June 19, 2009, 10:10:42 AM
Post by: HUNT on June 19, 2009, 10:12:42 AM
Post by: winston2789 on June 19, 2009, 10:19:13 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 19, 2009, 10:25:52 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 10:34:49 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 19, 2009, 10:37:19 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 19, 2009, 10:38:57 AM
According to the new hunt regs they are going to seperate out the antlerless hunts from the antlered so people will be able to put in for both. :bdid:
Wow thats a terrible idea.
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 10:39:24 AM
I'm not sure if that's good or bad. :dunno:
Post by: Dry creek on June 19, 2009, 10:52:50 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 10:54:50 AM
Post by: Dry creek on June 19, 2009, 11:01:01 AM
Post by: Bob33 on June 19, 2009, 11:06:47 AM
"Starting in 2010, hunters also will be able to apply for a greater variety of hunting permits. There will, for example, be separate application pools for antlerless permits as well as a separate application pool for second deer permits and for buck permits.
Under the new model, hunters will be able to purchase an application and apply for all three types of hunts – or any others for which they might be eligible. The bag limit will continue to be one deer or elk per year (unless the hunter draws a second deer or elk permit). These changes were widely supported by hunters during public
comment periods last summer."
What happens to existing points? If someone has 12 points, which pool do they go to?
This sounds like a "good" idea that will have terrible, unexpected consequences. :bdid:
Post by: bobcat on June 19, 2009, 11:09:12 AM
Post by: Bob33 on June 19, 2009, 11:23:59 AM
Post by: Bobm on June 19, 2009, 05:23:42 PM
The only people who benefit from it are the indians who kill all the big bulls.
Post by: furbearer365 on June 22, 2009, 05:03:01 PM
Post by: JoeVon on June 22, 2009, 05:13:07 PM
I guess if you still let the "Ineligible" put in for points then the money thing would be a moot point.
Post by: bobcat on June 22, 2009, 10:46:04 PM
I actually think that's a really good idea. That would get rid of the ones that get lucky and draw with only 1 or 2 points.