Post by: 2MANY on October 09, 2024, 09:13:53 AM
When we have no more big bulls to hunt at least we will know why.
Post by: yakimanoob on October 09, 2024, 09:18:17 AM
When we have no more big bulls to hunt at least we will know why.
You think it will be because muzzleloaders and bows are too fancy?
Post by: nwmein199 on October 09, 2024, 09:19:35 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 09, 2024, 09:20:50 AM
Post by: wadu1 on October 09, 2024, 09:27:05 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 09, 2024, 09:39:52 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 09, 2024, 09:45:42 AM
Post by: 2MANY on October 09, 2024, 10:02:46 AM
Reducing more and more seasons is a coming.
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 09, 2024, 10:17:29 AM
Too many people trying to kill animals with rifles at 1000+ yards, and guys slinging arrows at 70-100. People here haven’t even really seen the crazy muzzleloaders yet. Guys back East and in the Midwest are shooting muzzleloaders that use pistol cartridges as primers and custom swaged bullets to shoot sub moa at 500 yards.
We’re losing track of what hunting is all about in the chase for fame and fortune on the backs of big bucks and bulls.
Post by: baldopepper on October 09, 2024, 10:17:43 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 09, 2024, 10:20:44 AM
More hunters hunting every year with more efficient ways of killing and keeping the same seasons will have a negative effect.
Reducing more and more seasons is a coming.
There are actually fewer hunters every year. Our heritage is disappearing.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 09, 2024, 10:39:14 AM
More tech options should theoretically bring in even more people.More hunters hunting every year with more efficient ways of killing and keeping the same seasons will have a negative effect.
Reducing more and more seasons is a coming.
There are actually fewer hunters every year. Our heritage is disappearing.
Post by: elkboy on October 09, 2024, 10:51:14 AM
We want all the advantages of more and more sophisticated technology, and somehow expect that the game resource won't be impacted? Or that the state will not use the remaining variable at its disposal, which is season length? I don't get it.
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 09, 2024, 10:52:51 AM
https://realtree.com/deer-hunting/brow-tines-and-backstrap/are-hunter-numbers-actually-declining#:~:text=Reports%20as%20far%20back%20as,off%20suggested%20by%20the%20USFWS.
Post by: full choke on October 09, 2024, 10:55:11 AM
I think the Hunter numbers is a tough argument to fall back on. I’ll link an article that has some points, but don’t have time to truly dive into the research right now. Regardless, I’m not sure we are losing our heritage in the argument of losing hunters, I think we are losing our heritage in the sense of what hunting is all about. Growing up, hunting was about the time in the field, the time listening to dads and grandpas tell stories of the “good old days”, the camaraderie, the food, the traditions and sharing the hunt. Shooting little bucks and does without shame and being happy as ever about it because you were filling a tag and taking meat home to put in the freezer. Sure, some of the older experienced guys were just looking for big bucks, but to most those were just dreams that fueled the hunt. To me we have lost a lot of that, the focus these days feels like it’s just about success and bragging rights. Don’t get me wrong, some places the small bucks and does need to be protected. I grew up in the southeast where there is an abundance of deer, there is no concern about numbers so that’s a convenience others aren’t afforded. Just a point that a lot of things have changed, I don’t think our heritage dies because hunters disappear, but rather that we lose sight of what it was all about in the first place.
https://realtree.com/deer-hunting/brow-tines-and-backstrap/are-hunter-numbers-actually-declining#:~:text=Reports%20as%20far%20back%20as,off%20suggested%20by%20the%20USFWS.
Well said. Thank you.
Post by: GASoline71 on October 09, 2024, 10:57:12 AM
Modern muzzleloaders are basically a modfern rifle nowadays. First it was inlines, then it was pelletized powders, then it was 209 modern ignitions, then it was fiber optic sights, then it was sabots, then it was jacketed bullets, then it was closed breech to keep the nipple/primer out of the elements, now it's 1x scopes. Archery has seen some of the same types of technological timelines on their side.
We need to start going backwards and put some of the restrictions back on. :twocents:
Gary
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 09, 2024, 10:59:33 AM
More hunters hunting every year with more efficient ways of killing and keeping the same seasons will have a negative effect.
Reducing more and more seasons is a coming.
There are actually fewer hunters every year. Our heritage is disappearing.
Not so sure about that post-pandemic, for now anyways. One thing that will certainly hurt recruitment in the long term is reduction of opportunity via public land access, game populations and tag availability. When new hunters struggle to find success, they give up.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/national-hunting-fishing-survey-results/
Post by: mr.ktm95 on October 09, 2024, 11:15:11 AM
Post by: 2MANY on October 09, 2024, 11:15:46 AM
I’ve been saying it for years. We’re in for a real shock in 10-15 years in the hunting world. I think the unfortunate truth is that as technology has increased the ethics have decreased. Too many people willing to test the limits of the new technology. My personal limitations with my compound bow are only 10-15 yards farther than my limits with my recurve. It’s not that I can’t shoot 70-80 yards consistently with my compound, it’s that I know there are too many factors that can go wrong in the time it takes for an arrow to fly that far.
Too many people trying to kill animals with rifles at 1000+ yards, and guys slinging arrows at 70-100. People here haven’t even really seen the crazy muzzleloaders yet. Guys back East and in the Midwest are shooting muzzleloaders that use pistol cartridges as primers and custom swaged bullets to shoot sub moa at 500 yards.
We’re losing track of what hunting is all about in the chase for fame and fortune on the backs of big bucks and bulls.
Keeping short range short.
I commend you!
Post by: WWC on October 09, 2024, 11:52:59 AM
Hunting participation did take a bump during Covid restrictions, how ever they have dropped to near normal numbers. Sportsmen need to be more active in harvesting predators as they are having the largest impact on numbers. The commission has hambstung the department with the tools available to manage ungulate numbers. Bear hunting partispation should be increased. Very few Sportsmen took advantage of harvesting 2 bears. Cougars have mostly been harvested as incidental take while chasing deer and elk. The commission has been steadily been tightening the rules on predator hunting. At the current point a change in political leadership will make the biggest impact for sportsmen.
Post by: Special T on October 09, 2024, 12:08:06 PM
Post by: MADMAX on October 09, 2024, 12:14:11 PM
Set the parameters and establish it.
I remember painting my bow sight pins with high glow orange pink and green paint
And using black powder only in my 50 Hawken with a buckhorn sight
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 09, 2024, 12:31:09 PM
When this topic was discussed at the GMAC the focal point was retention, one of the R3 goals. The discussion of clarifiers and 1x scopes we had by archery representatives and older hunters. For those folks needing reader glasses the alternative was hunting rifle or hanging it up. It was agreed that if we recommended clarifiers we made legal then 1x scopes should be. That was the consensus of the GMAC. It was also stated that if harvest changed the allocation would have to be changed as well.
Hunting participation did take a bump during Covid restrictions, how ever they have dropped to near normal numbers. Sportsmen need to be more active in harvesting predators as they are having the largest impact on numbers. The commission has hambstung the department with the tools available to manage ungulate numbers. Bear hunting partispation should be increased. Very few Sportsmen took advantage of harvesting 2 bears. Cougars have mostly been harvested as incidental take while chasing deer and elk. The commission has been steadily been tightening the rules on predator hunting. At the current point a change in political leadership will make the biggest impact for sportsmen.
I’ve made this argument for years that not enough people predator hunt. Simultaneously people complain constantly about predators and gate keep information. Maybe I’m naive, but in my mind if I complain about predators, fill my predator tags, and know about hillsides with bears on them then I’m pointing fellow hunters in that direction and providing useful information when asked about it.
Post by: Dark2Dark on October 09, 2024, 01:09:14 PM
I would feel better if hunting was growing because that would be better for long term opportunities. Having the whole state to myself sounds great, in theory, but in actuality, if I was the only person left interested in hunting, it wouldn’t be allowed.
Strength in numbers helps with rights, opportunities, management and conservation, as long as things are managed well.
Elk success rates in Washington with a rifle suck. I doubt allowing 1x scopes on a single shot weapon with still relatively limited range is going to cause success rates to skyrocket.
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 09, 2024, 01:10:01 PM
When this topic was discussed at the GMAC the focal point was retention, one of the R3 goals. The discussion of clarifiers and 1x scopes we had by archery representatives and older hunters. For those folks needing reader glasses the alternative was hunting rifle or hanging it up. It was agreed that if we recommended clarifiers we made legal then 1x scopes should be. That was the consensus of the GMAC. It was also stated that if harvest changed the allocation would have to be changed as well.
Hunting participation did take a bump during Covid restrictions, how ever they have dropped to near normal numbers. Sportsmen need to be more active in harvesting predators as they are having the largest impact on numbers. The commission has hambstung the department with the tools available to manage ungulate numbers. Bear hunting partispation should be increased. Very few Sportsmen took advantage of harvesting 2 bears. Cougars have mostly been harvested as incidental take while chasing deer and elk. The commission has been steadily been tightening the rules on predator hunting. At the current point a change in political leadership will make the biggest impact for sportsmen.
I’ve made this argument for years that not enough people predator hunt. Simultaneously people complain constantly about predators and gate keep information. Maybe I’m naive, but in my mind if I complain about predators, fill my predator tags, and know about hillsides with bears on them then I’m pointing fellow hunters in that direction and providing useful information when asked about it.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: GASoline71 on October 09, 2024, 01:28:39 PM
When this topic was discussed at the GMAC the focal point was retention, one of the R3 goals. The discussion of clarifiers and 1x scopes we had by archery representatives and older hunters. For those folks needing reader glasses the alternative was hunting rifle or hanging it up. It was agreed that if we recommended clarifiers we made legal then 1x scopes should be. That was the consensus of the GMAC. It was also stated that if harvest changed the allocation would have to be changed as well.
Hunting participation did take a bump during Covid restrictions, how ever they have dropped to near normal numbers. Sportsmen need to be more active in harvesting predators as they are having the largest impact on numbers. The commission has hambstung the department with the tools available to manage ungulate numbers. Bear hunting partispation should be increased. Very few Sportsmen took advantage of harvesting 2 bears. Cougars have mostly been harvested as incidental take while chasing deer and elk. The commission has been steadily been tightening the rules on predator hunting. At the current point a change in political leadership will make the biggest impact for sportsmen.
I’ve made this argument for years that not enough people predator hunt. Simultaneously people complain constantly about predators and gate keep information. Maybe I’m naive, but in my mind if I complain about predators, fill my predator tags, and know about hillsides with bears on them then I’m pointing fellow hunters in that direction and providing useful information when asked about it.
I have to admit that I fell into that category. I always held bear and cougar tags, but only had them in case I saw one while deer or elk hunting and could get a shot on them. But never really pursued them. Now, ever since the spring bear debacle in this state, I have gone out during bear and cougar seasons with the sole intent on taking one of them. Also, if I see a bear or cougar on any deer or elk hunt... well, that hunt now changes into a predator hunt.
Gary
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 09, 2024, 01:55:33 PM
Post by: Special T on October 09, 2024, 01:56:06 PM
The reality is fewer people hunt each year and technological improvements in hunting aren’t going to change that.
I would feel better if hunting was growing because that would be better for long term opportunities. Having the whole state to myself sounds great, in theory, but in actuality, if I was the only person left interested in hunting, it wouldn’t be allowed.
Strength in numbers helps with rights, opportunities, management and conservation, as long as things are managed well.
Elk success rates in Washington with a rifle suck. I doubt allowing 1x scopes on a single shot weapon with still relatively limited range is going to cause success rates to skyrocket.
It's my opinion that less people hunt because it's harder to be sucessful. When I take kids out I like to do it youth bird season because they always get action and pull the trigger. I have not pursued predators as much as I should, but got a cat tag and no deer or elk. I see some of this conversation fighting over a shrinking pie, and that helps nobody.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 09, 2024, 02:06:32 PM
Post by: Sundance on October 09, 2024, 02:22:43 PM
Post by: baldopepper on October 09, 2024, 03:59:35 PM
Who knows, might even show you the score of the buck or bull and ask if you want it. Guns we're using now will have a special.primitive.weapons season.
Post by: blackymaster20 on October 09, 2024, 04:41:57 PM
Post by: wadu1 on October 09, 2024, 05:33:52 PM
Guess are grandkids will go out with AI generated guns that will automatically range, adjust and fire for you. All you'll have to do is hold it upReminds me of one of Pat Mcmanus stories I'll never forget Old 5789-A from his book "A Fine and Plesant Misery".
Who knows, might even show you the score of the buck or bull and ask if you want it. Guns we're using now will have a special.primitive.weapons season.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 09, 2024, 06:31:21 PM
Post by: Caseknife on October 09, 2024, 06:58:26 PM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on October 09, 2024, 07:34:02 PM
One thing I missed because I haven’t hunted it in a while Willipa Hills late elk shifted to 3 point only, no cow season. Guess numbers hit objective or are actually lower. I am surprised by that loss of opportunity.
Post by: Platensek-po on October 09, 2024, 07:47:16 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on October 10, 2024, 09:01:52 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 10, 2024, 09:07:35 AM
I can tell you from the archery side, you have to go no wheels to lose any advantage IMO. I bought my first brand new bow in 01, 7 pin sight, drop away rest, carbon arrow, release etc.... and had been shooting similar setup on a 97 bow as well. While bow and arrow setups have increased significantly as far as power and precision and the laser rangefinder and sliding sights dangle a carrot that your effective range is X, the truth is regsrdless of what your cousins stepmoms boyfriend or Bowmar tells you, until that arrow can break the sound barrier, or the bow can draw itself, vertical bow archery will remain a close range sport. Handheld ranging and sliding pins only add precision, rarely distance for bowhunters being honest about their shots. ( rangefinding sights would be a major gamechanger imo, and every hunter should oppose that tech in archery seasons in the west).
My only real experience with a muzzy was back in the hawken caplock and early inline days. I watched a young buck absorb multiple all lead sabots and was in disbelief a jacketed round was illegal after seeing it. After experiencing a fire rate of sub 80 percent on a good day with the inline, that was all I needed to know. At least my bow goes off when I pull the trigger. I have never fired a muzzy at a critter and haven't kept up with tech. I understand they are significantly more lethal ( a good thing) as well as reliable and easier to setup and shoot. ( possible catch 22)
Everything is solved with increased ungulate populations. If im seeing 50 deer a day, and a good buck to doe ratio, I could care less if there's bears, cougars, wolves, or other hunters in an area, if a hunter shoots a buck at a grand with a 28 nosler a hundred with a bow or 250 with his red dot muzzy it's not as big of a deal.
25 years ago road hunting was much more popular, atv trails were punched around almost every gate I hunted behind. It was illegal and it annoyed my buddys that it didn't really bother me a bit, because there were animals for those guys to chase and the hunting methods they employed did not cross into my sphere. Now the area I used to access are the only areas with any critters and pressure is very high. Access is more restricted for sure, but loss of critters is the primary reason for the pressure increase.
Restrictions are a band aid to suffering populations, no way are they even close to a cure. Allowing more tech is good for recruiting possibly but does little for retention long term. I agree with whoever posted about the ballot box is the best thing you can do. Encourage any liberal hunters you know to vote conservative if they want a fighting chance at turning this boat around specifically in this state.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 10, 2024, 10:08:14 AM
I definitely noticed fewer archery hunters this year. But I still think the overall numbers are going to be in line with previous seasons. Some shift should be expected but I don’t think it will affect overall numbers.Early archery in 560 and 572 both went 3-point only this year as well.
One thing I missed because I haven’t hunted it in a while Willipa Hills late elk shifted to 3 point only, no cow season. Guess numbers hit objective or are actually lower. I am surprised by that loss of opportunity.
Post by: HntnFsh on October 10, 2024, 10:17:30 AM
Yep, I have a buddy that him, his 2 sons and his dad all 4 tagged out this year with muzzleloader. He said it's the first time ever they have all taken bulls. Usually, they get one bull in they are lucky, and maybe a cow if one of them is drawn. He said the 1x scopes are a game changer.
Modern muzzleloaders are basically a modfern rifle nowadays. First it was inlines, then it was pelletized powders, then it was 209 modern ignitions, then it was fiber optic sights, then it was sabots, then it was jacketed bullets, then it was closed breech to keep the nipple/primer out of the elements, now it's 1x scopes. Archery has seen some of the same types of technological timelines on their side.
We need to start going backwards and put some of the restrictions back on. :twocents:
Gary
They didnt get 4 critters because of red dots. They got 4 critters because they were in the right place at the right time. Most hunters dont even get 4 opportunities at an elk, let alone see 4 different legal bulls in a season. At least on the west side. Spike units on the east side may be different. I dont know.
We have had seasons where we are into a lot of bulls or had a lot of success. It was because of hard work, long hours, due diligence, and luck. That was with open sights.
We can complain about the modernization of "Primitive Weapons" but we also have to look at the advancement of modern firearms and optics also. Shooting light starts earlier and stays later. Distances can be dialed or held over with minimal effort or knowledge. Modernization affects everything.
Post by: Bearhunter308 on October 10, 2024, 11:14:13 AM
There are many things that affect harvests. I would say that it's possible that with newer technology, there may be slightly higher harvest numbers (and I have no data to indicate that either way) but fewer lost animals (a number not included in any data). This is exemplified in the debate over lighted nocks several years ago. We have no way of knowing how many more critters have been recovered because of that advanced technology which were previously lost. I would venture to say that advanced tech may possibly have a positive effect on herd numbers. You know what has a definite negative effect? The three Ps: Poaching, Predators, and some of the People on the Commission.
:yeah:
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2024, 12:31:40 PM
I get a kick out of those that don't think the red dot increases your success. If you didn't think it would why would you put it on your muzzelloader? because you think it looks cool? LOL
I mean I get redirection or arguing for something you want to keep so you can be successful but be real.
The title of the thread isn't HUNTWA killed hunting. Could be. I'm sure it or the likes of it amoung a dozen other things. Its a wonder there are any animals left.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2024, 12:51:25 PM
Dudes driving around for days on end and using atvs to hunt but a red dot on a muzzle loader is the end of hunting. Lololol. Guys are even on this site complaining that they can’t drive around the same areas natives can. Sad. That’s what technology has brought us. More and more lazy people who think that driving around is “getting outdoors”.
“Lazy” people” SMH
Not ALL folks are young, and or able bodied.
You too will be there some day……until then, how bout not complaining about how others hunt :twocents:
Post by: 2MANY on October 10, 2024, 12:52:46 PM
I always wondered if we was related.
Post by: 2MANY on October 10, 2024, 12:53:29 PM
Dudes driving around for days on end and using atvs to hunt but a red dot on a muzzle loader is the end of hunting. Lololol. Guys are even on this site complaining that they can’t drive around the same areas natives can. Sad. That’s what technology has brought us. More and more lazy people who think that driving around is “getting outdoors”.
“Lazy” people” SMH
Not ALL folks are young, and or able bodied.
You too will be there some day……until then, how bout not complaining about how others hunt :twocents:
Giddy Up!
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2024, 12:55:38 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on October 10, 2024, 02:01:00 PM
Dudes driving around for days on end and using atvs to hunt but a red dot on a muzzle loader is the end of hunting. Lololol. Guys are even on this site complaining that they can’t drive around the same areas natives can. Sad. That’s what technology has brought us. More and more lazy people who think that driving around is “getting outdoors”.
“Lazy” people” SMH
Not ALL folks are young, and or able bodied.
You too will be there some day……until then, how bout not complaining about how others hunt :twocents:
Giddy Up!
This whole thread is about complaining how other people
Legally hunt. And yes it’s lazy. If you are disabled I understand it. I see a lot of young dude and guys who weigh 400+lbs out there driving around all day. Don’t worry I feel the same way about people who drive a Prius up to the trailhead and get out decked in patagucci and hike a half mile then go on to say how they are hikers and outdoors people. Tons of kids running around on atvs and pickup trucks cause they were told that’s “hunting”.
Post by: baldopepper on October 10, 2024, 03:35:42 PM
Post by: slavenoid on October 10, 2024, 03:58:37 PM
Maybe my red dot is defective seeing how it hasn't gone out and killed me a bull yet and loaded it into the truck.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2024, 07:10:27 PM
Dudes driving around for days on end and using atvs to hunt but a red dot on a muzzle loader is the end of hunting. Lololol. Guys are even on this site complaining that they can’t drive around the same areas natives can. Sad. That’s what technology has brought us. More and more lazy people who think that driving around is “getting outdoors”.
“Lazy” people” SMH
Not ALL folks are young, and or able bodied.
You too will be there some day……until then, how bout not complaining about how others hunt :twocents:
Giddy Up!
This whole thread is about complaining how other people
Legally hunt. And yes it’s lazy. If you are disabled I understand it. I see a lot of young dude and guys who weigh 400+lbs out there driving around all day. Don’t worry I feel the same way about people who drive a Prius up to the trailhead and get out decked in patagucci and hike a half mile then go on to say how they are hikers and outdoors people. Tons of kids running around on atvs and pickup trucks cause they were told that’s “hunting”.
To them it is. Who are you to tell some one to do it YOUR way, or they are lazy.
Unreal SMH
Post by: hollymaster on October 10, 2024, 07:57:42 PM
It’s turned into a joke….
Post by: Rutnbuxnbulls on October 10, 2024, 08:32:30 PM