Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 12:37:20 PM
I'm here to do a bit of a write-up on my Westside Elk Raffle Tag. I have been putting in for Washington Raffle tags since 2012 without any sort of luck, but this year I ended up drawing the Westside Elk, NE Combo, and the Moose. To say the stars aligned is an understatement. I ended up checking my results mid-draw and saw that I was drawn for a moose tag. I was beyond pumped. I called down a buddy to take a look at my moose tag and found I was drawn for two more and then became a combination of elated and beyond stressed. I figured I'd be lucky to get out of this year with my job and marriage intact.
Many folks seem to have all sorts of expectations for me to kill some monsters and hunt every second of the day between now and December 31st, but it simply isn't possible for me. My brother flew from Alabama, for a month, and my Dad, brother-in-law, and another friend came out at different times for a few days. So far, I have harvested two moose and the Westside elk. Once I feel like sharpening the knives and cleaning the gun I'll get back out in November to try and fill the other tags.
The Westside elk was the first tag I allocated a week to fill. We spent the first 5 days backpacking into the White River unit freezing, getting rained on, and having very little luck seeing much action. The weather and heat had them nocturnal for the days I was in there (Sep 14 - 19th). Here is where the banned for life comes in. On the 20th, Kapowsin invited the access permit holders onto the property once the archery general season ended. I had a tag that allowed me to hunt for 4 months, I was legally on the property, and the Kapowsin rules do not restrict elk harvest. They only restrict access during general season. I have seen countless threads on this forum debating this topic, and the general consensus and even folks that called the office was that that the raffle or governor tag holder can legally hunt here. In fact, in the past, Kapowsin had apparently given permission to a raffle tag winner, but he was unable to get an access pass before they sold out. We went in on the 20th and entered what seemed like Jurassic Park for elk. In the first 15 minutes of legal light, we had passed on multiple big bulls. Only 30 or so minutes after first light on the first day in there I ended up harvesting my best Washington elk or game animal by far.
I ended up filling out the Green Harvest card, reported the harvest, and then went back home to deal with the elk. No big deal for about a week and then I got an email from Kapowsin letting me know they were going to revoke my permit and ban me for life. They haven't yet articulated a rule that I broke, but have made it clear that it is their prerogative to do whatever they want. They are in the process of sending me a prepaid envelope to mail back my key and stickers. For all of those folks on this forum that read the rules and speculated whether or not it was allowed or legal, I went ahead and found out for you. It is legal and there is no issue with WDFW, but Kapowsin sure doesn't like it. It doesn't break any explicit rule, but they will ban you for life. I'm not proud of this and wish I wasnt banned, but I cant change it now.
At the end of the day, I had a great hunt with family, got in better shape, and harvested a great elk. We also process all the game meat ourselves and I am happy to have a full freezer and plenty to share. My brother will be doing a video on Youtube of this hunt, as well as the other two moose hunts that we got on camera. I think several of you on here have subscribed to his channel and checked out the 2022 goat video ( ) and 2023 elk video ( t=57s ). Subscribe to get notified of the new 2024 videos when they come out.
Post by: highside74 on October 10, 2024, 01:12:59 PM
That's a bummer it went down that way but man you sure did shoot a giant. Hopefully you can appeal your ban.
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2024, 01:26:20 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on October 10, 2024, 01:42:22 PM
Post by: The G Spot on October 10, 2024, 02:01:00 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 02:29:25 PM
Hell of a bull. As a permit holder and someone who puts in for that draw every year not sure how I feel about it just yet. Harvesting September 20th means OP was in there before muzzy and rifle guys got their opportunity.
I totally understand the thought here. True that I potentially took a bull from some future hunter no matter where i went. Anyway, thanks for the comment and I understand that by posting I'm opening myself up to all kinds of comments and criticism
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 10, 2024, 02:34:15 PM
There's no criticism, or at least there shouldn't be. There's always a tag holder before another tag holder. Archery guys before muzzy, muzzy before gun. Hell the rifle tag holders may shoot a bull that an archery guy could have taken next year. It's a silly statement that ranks right up there with "you shouldn't shoot cows in the late season because they're pregnant ". :chuckle:Hell of a bull. As a permit holder and someone who puts in for that draw every year not sure how I feel about it just yet. Harvesting September 20th means OP was in there before muzzy and rifle guys got their opportunity.
Totally understand. That's true no matter what unit I went to, but i understand the controversy and am putting myself out there for plenty of criticism
Congrats on a WOW to the max factor bull :tup:
Post by: highside74 on October 10, 2024, 02:40:03 PM
Hell of a bull. As a permit holder and someone who puts in for that draw every year not sure how I feel about it just yet. Harvesting September 20th means OP was in there before muzzy and rifle guys got their opportunity.
I totally understand the thought here. True that I potentially took a bull from some future hunter no matter where i went. Anyway, thanks for the comment and I understand that by posting I'm opening myself up to all kinds of comments and criticism
I can also see where he is coming from but...
In your defense my buddy has killed a cow in there during the late Mashell cow draw tag. Sure it's not a bull but they do allow special tag holders that also have the access pass to harvest cows outside of their elk closure periods.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 10, 2024, 02:41:56 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on October 10, 2024, 02:58:43 PM
This is truly and awesome story. You're one lucky SOB, and I'd take banned for life to have the kind of season you're already having. My favorite is that you broke none of their rules, but you did break their minds. Their lawyers must be in a tizzy trying to rewrite the rules. Everyone works the system in business, I'd say you worked it in a way that optimized it for you. Hope you enjoyed your OIL elk experience!
Congrats on the bull, good luck with the moose.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 10, 2024, 03:13:52 PM
Lol.... my guess someone with some "pull" had eyes on that guy. Tough to miss. I bet if you had dumped an average 320 the drama would have been significantly less.
Congratz on a OIL opportunity and possibly bull!!
Post by: KNOPHISH on October 10, 2024, 03:13:55 PM
Post by: High Climber on October 10, 2024, 03:22:07 PM
Post by: highside74 on October 10, 2024, 03:46:54 PM
I can't help but laugh.
This is truly and awesome story. You're one lucky SOB, and I'd take banned for life to have the kind of season you're already having. My favorite is that you broke none of their rules, but you did break their minds. Their lawyers must be in a tizzy trying to rewrite the rules. Everyone works the system in business, I'd say you worked it in a way that optimized it for you. Hope you enjoyed your OIL elk experience!
Congrats on the bull, good luck with the moose.
My buddy and I were saying the same thing. Someone is rewriting the rules as we speak. :chuckle:
Odds are he was never going to draw the Kapowsin tag so I think he got the better end deal.
Post by: addicted1 on October 10, 2024, 03:49:14 PM
Post by: Dan-o on October 10, 2024, 04:07:13 PM
Congratulations on filling another of your tags and making the most of your once-in- lifetime draw.
I keep going back just to look at the pics.
And I appreciate you sharing the story.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 10, 2024, 04:07:26 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm here to do a bit of a write-up on my Westside Elk Raffle Tag. I have been putting in for Washington Raffle tags since 2012 without any sort of luck, but this year I ended up drawing the Westside Elk, NE Combo, and the Moose. To say the stars aligned is an understatement. I ended up checking my results mid-draw and saw that I was drawn for a moose tag. I was beyond pumped. I called down a buddy to take a look at my moose tag and found I was drawn for two more and then became a combination of elated and beyond stressed. I figured I'd be lucky to get out of this year with my job and marriage intact.
Many folks seem to have all sorts of expectations for me to kill some monsters and hunt every second of the day between now and December 31st, but it simply isn't possible for me. My brother flew from Alabama, for a month, and my Dad, brother-in-law, and another friend came out at different times for a few days. So far, I have harvested two moose and the Westside elk. Once I feel like sharpening the knives and cleaning the gun I'll get back out in November to try and fill the other tags.
The Westside elk was the first tag I allocated a week to fill. We spent the first 5 days backpacking into the White River unit freezing, getting rained on, and having very little luck seeing much action. The weather and heat had them nocturnal for the days I was in there (Sep 14 - 19th). Here is where the banned for life comes in. On the 20th, Kapowsin invited the access permit holders onto the property once the archery general season ended. I had a tag that allowed me to hunt for 4 months, I was legally on the property, and the Kapowsin rules do not restrict elk harvest. They only restrict access during general season. I have seen countless threads on this forum debating this topic, and the general consensus and even folks that called the office was that that the raffle or governor tag holder can legally hunt here. In fact, in the past, Kapowsin had apparently given permission to a raffle tag winner, but he was unable to get an access pass before they sold out. We went in on the 20th and entered what seemed like Jurassic Park for elk. In the first 15 minutes of legal light, we had passed on multiple big bulls. Only 30 or so minutes after first light on the first day in there I ended up harvesting my best Washington elk or game animal by far.
I ended up filling out the Green Harvest card, reported the harvest, and then went back home to deal with the elk. No big deal for about a week and then I got an email from Kapowsin letting me know they were going to revoke my permit and ban me for life. They haven't yet articulated a rule that I broke, but have made it clear that it is their prerogative to do whatever they want. They are in the process of sending me a prepaid envelope to mail back my key and stickers. For all of those folks on this forum that read the rules and speculated whether or not it was allowed or legal, I went ahead and found out for you. It is legal and there is no issue with WDFW, but Kapowsin sure doesn't like it. It doesn't break any explicit rule, but they will ban you for life. I'm not proud of this and wish I wasnt banned, but I cant change it now.
At the end of the day, I had a great hunt with family, got in better shape, and harvested a great elk. We also process all the game meat ourselves and I am happy to have a full freezer and plenty to share. My brother will be doing a video on Youtube of this hunt, as well as the other two moose hunts that we got on camera. I think several of you on here have subscribed to his channel and checked out the 2022 goat video ( ) and 2023 elk video ( t=57s ). Subscribe to get notified of the new 2024 videos when they come out.
Reading their rules, you did absolutely nothing wrong, it’s BS they banned you. You were hunting when their property was open to hunting with a valid tag. I bet a letter from an attorney would flip that decision real quick.
Post by: The G Spot on October 10, 2024, 04:16:39 PM
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Post by: The G Spot on October 10, 2024, 04:18:27 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm here to do a bit of a write-up on my Westside Elk Raffle Tag. I have been putting in for Washington Raffle tags since 2012 without any sort of luck, but this year I ended up drawing the Westside Elk, NE Combo, and the Moose. To say the stars aligned is an understatement. I ended up checking my results mid-draw and saw that I was drawn for a moose tag. I was beyond pumped. I called down a buddy to take a look at my moose tag and found I was drawn for two more and then became a combination of elated and beyond stressed. I figured I'd be lucky to get out of this year with my job and marriage intact.
Many folks seem to have all sorts of expectations for me to kill some monsters and hunt every second of the day between now and December 31st, but it simply isn't possible for me. My brother flew from Alabama, for a month, and my Dad, brother-in-law, and another friend came out at different times for a few days. So far, I have harvested two moose and the Westside elk. Once I feel like sharpening the knives and cleaning the gun I'll get back out in November to try and fill the other tags.
The Westside elk was the first tag I allocated a week to fill. We spent the first 5 days backpacking into the White River unit freezing, getting rained on, and having very little luck seeing much action. The weather and heat had them nocturnal for the days I was in there (Sep 14 - 19th). Here is where the banned for life comes in. On the 20th, Kapowsin invited the access permit holders onto the property once the archery general season ended. I had a tag that allowed me to hunt for 4 months, I was legally on the property, and the Kapowsin rules do not restrict elk harvest. They only restrict access during general season. I have seen countless threads on this forum debating this topic, and the general consensus and even folks that called the office was that that the raffle or governor tag holder can legally hunt here. In fact, in the past, Kapowsin had apparently given permission to a raffle tag winner, but he was unable to get an access pass before they sold out. We went in on the 20th and entered what seemed like Jurassic Park for elk. In the first 15 minutes of legal light, we had passed on multiple big bulls. Only 30 or so minutes after first light on the first day in there I ended up harvesting my best Washington elk or game animal by far.
I ended up filling out the Green Harvest card, reported the harvest, and then went back home to deal with the elk. No big deal for about a week and then I got an email from Kapowsin letting me know they were going to revoke my permit and ban me for life. They haven't yet articulated a rule that I broke, but have made it clear that it is their prerogative to do whatever they want. They are in the process of sending me a prepaid envelope to mail back my key and stickers. For all of those folks on this forum that read the rules and speculated whether or not it was allowed or legal, I went ahead and found out for you. It is legal and there is no issue with WDFW, but Kapowsin sure doesn't like it. It doesn't break any explicit rule, but they will ban you for life. I'm not proud of this and wish I wasnt banned, but I cant change it now.
At the end of the day, I had a great hunt with family, got in better shape, and harvested a great elk. We also process all the game meat ourselves and I am happy to have a full freezer and plenty to share. My brother will be doing a video on Youtube of this hunt, as well as the other two moose hunts that we got on camera. I think several of you on here have subscribed to his channel and checked out the 2022 goat video ( ) and 2023 elk video ( t=57s ). Subscribe to get notified of the new 2024 videos when they come out.
Reading their rules, you did absolutely nothing wrong, it’s BS they banned you. You were hunting when their property was open to hunting with a valid tag. I bet a letter from an attorney would flip that decision real quick.
Ya get an attorney involved with manulife…. One the largest investment firms in the world :bdid: :bdid:
Post by: elkrack on October 10, 2024, 04:18:39 PM
Lol.... my guess someone with some "pull" had eyes on that guy. Tough to miss. I bet if you had dumped an average 320 the drama would have been significantly less.
:yeah:
This is exactly what’s going on!
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 10, 2024, 04:55:31 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm here to do a bit of a write-up on my Westside Elk Raffle Tag. I have been putting in for Washington Raffle tags since 2012 without any sort of luck, but this year I ended up drawing the Westside Elk, NE Combo, and the Moose. To say the stars aligned is an understatement. I ended up checking my results mid-draw and saw that I was drawn for a moose tag. I was beyond pumped. I called down a buddy to take a look at my moose tag and found I was drawn for two more and then became a combination of elated and beyond stressed. I figured I'd be lucky to get out of this year with my job and marriage intact.
Many folks seem to have all sorts of expectations for me to kill some monsters and hunt every second of the day between now and December 31st, but it simply isn't possible for me. My brother flew from Alabama, for a month, and my Dad, brother-in-law, and another friend came out at different times for a few days. So far, I have harvested two moose and the Westside elk. Once I feel like sharpening the knives and cleaning the gun I'll get back out in November to try and fill the other tags.
The Westside elk was the first tag I allocated a week to fill. We spent the first 5 days backpacking into the White River unit freezing, getting rained on, and having very little luck seeing much action. The weather and heat had them nocturnal for the days I was in there (Sep 14 - 19th). Here is where the banned for life comes in. On the 20th, Kapowsin invited the access permit holders onto the property once the archery general season ended. I had a tag that allowed me to hunt for 4 months, I was legally on the property, and the Kapowsin rules do not restrict elk harvest. They only restrict access during general season. I have seen countless threads on this forum debating this topic, and the general consensus and even folks that called the office was that that the raffle or governor tag holder can legally hunt here. In fact, in the past, Kapowsin had apparently given permission to a raffle tag winner, but he was unable to get an access pass before they sold out. We went in on the 20th and entered what seemed like Jurassic Park for elk. In the first 15 minutes of legal light, we had passed on multiple big bulls. Only 30 or so minutes after first light on the first day in there I ended up harvesting my best Washington elk or game animal by far.
I ended up filling out the Green Harvest card, reported the harvest, and then went back home to deal with the elk. No big deal for about a week and then I got an email from Kapowsin letting me know they were going to revoke my permit and ban me for life. They haven't yet articulated a rule that I broke, but have made it clear that it is their prerogative to do whatever they want. They are in the process of sending me a prepaid envelope to mail back my key and stickers. For all of those folks on this forum that read the rules and speculated whether or not it was allowed or legal, I went ahead and found out for you. It is legal and there is no issue with WDFW, but Kapowsin sure doesn't like it. It doesn't break any explicit rule, but they will ban you for life. I'm not proud of this and wish I wasnt banned, but I cant change it now.
At the end of the day, I had a great hunt with family, got in better shape, and harvested a great elk. We also process all the game meat ourselves and I am happy to have a full freezer and plenty to share. My brother will be doing a video on Youtube of this hunt, as well as the other two moose hunts that we got on camera. I think several of you on here have subscribed to his channel and checked out the 2022 goat video ( ) and 2023 elk video ( t=57s ). Subscribe to get notified of the new 2024 videos when they come out.
Reading their rules, you did absolutely nothing wrong, it’s BS they banned you. You were hunting when their property was open to hunting with a valid tag. I bet a letter from an attorney would flip that decision real quick.
Ya get an attorney involved with manulife…. One the largest investment firms in the world :bdid: :bdid:
Yea you are right, probably get buried :chuckle: in the end, it’s probably worth the ban for the bull!
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 05:07:18 PM
Not trying to take away from the animal and I am well aware of the cow tags. I put in for those cow tags too. Their rules state that the December/January cow tag is open on their farm.
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Pretty clear to who? Not me. Not clear in their rules and I don't know about their history.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 10, 2024, 05:09:33 PM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 10, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Not trying to take away from the animal and I am well aware of the cow tags. I put in for those cow tags too. Their rules state that the December/January cow tag is open on their farm.
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Pretty clear to who? Not me. Not clear in their rules and I don't know about their history.
I believe you fell in between their rules honestly… the rules should read there is no elk hunting except for the permit holders.
Elk Hunting - All license purchased by May 2nd, 2024 will be entered into the bull elk
draw. Kapowsin will draw 3 archery, 3 muzzleloader, and 5 modern firearm hunters. Winners will be
selected on May 7th, 2024 with the winners notified within four (4) days via phone. The forest will be
closed to ALL recreation during those hunts with the exception of those drawn during their
season. In addition to our email and website notifications, it is your responsibility as a license
holder to be aware of those dates and know when the forest is closed.
Winners are responsible for applicable state and federal taxes, if any. If a Winner does not respond to
MIM to claim the prize within forty-eight (48) hours or if a Winner is determined to be ineligible for
not complying with the Rules or Terms of Use or for any other reason, then the prize will be
forfeited, and a new Winner will not be selected.
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 05:19:07 PM
Not trying to take away from the animal and I am well aware of the cow tags. I put in for those cow tags too. Their rules state that the December/January cow tag is open on their farm.
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Pretty clear to who? Not me. Not clear in their rules and I don't know about their history.
I believe you fell in between their rules honestly… the rules should read there is no elk hunting except for the permit holders.
Elk Hunting - All license purchased by May 2nd, 2024 will be entered into the bull elk
draw. Kapowsin will draw 3 archery, 3 muzzleloader, and 5 modern firearm hunters. Winners will be
selected on May 7th, 2024 with the winners notified within four (4) days via phone. The forest will be
closed to ALL recreation during those hunts with the exception of those drawn during their
season. In addition to our email and website notifications, it is your responsibility as a license
holder to be aware of those dates and know when the forest is closed.
Winners are responsible for applicable state and federal taxes, if any. If a Winner does not respond to
MIM to claim the prize within forty-eight (48) hours or if a Winner is determined to be ineligible for
not complying with the Rules or Terms of Use or for any other reason, then the prize will be
forfeited, and a new Winner will not be selected.
Completely agree. There was no rule for raffle. In hindsight I should have checked to avoid the heartache.
Post by: The G Spot on October 10, 2024, 05:26:49 PM
If you know the quality of bulls there then you most likely know it’s pretty wild to me not even inquire on a raffle or governor’s tag.
Post by: CarbonHunter on October 10, 2024, 05:50:45 PM
Congratulations you shot a heck of a bull and I agree you didn’t do anything wrong. However the land owners with money are the ones with the power.
Post by: JakeLand on October 10, 2024, 05:52:46 PM
Reading the rules my take is your all good .
Post by: highside74 on October 10, 2024, 06:01:08 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 10, 2024, 06:38:42 PM
Great bull Jensen!! I’d take the ban with that bull
Reading the rules my take is your all good .
:yeah: this is 1000 percent a beg for forgiveness situation. The rules do not address this situation specifically so its a win on a technicality. If you call them, my guess is they don't give you the right answer.
Post by: Caseyd on October 10, 2024, 06:48:37 PM
You knew getting an answer could stop the hunt, you followed the written rules.
Bravo and hell of a bull
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 10, 2024, 07:44:58 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 08:04:13 PM
Can’t blame a guy for reading between the lines. Won’t be surprised if a bunch of hunters down the line pay the price though. Can’t say I feel bad for ya at all though. Would appear you either have a golden horse shoe lodged in your small intestine or a couple extra commas in your bank account with the YouTube videos and number of raffle tags. Hell of a bull though!
Agreed, certainly not feeling bad for myself this year. I don't like the drama and hate to feel like I'm in trouble. Having said that, if you put a quarter in the jukebox you get to dance to the tune.
Post by: bankwalker on October 10, 2024, 08:20:14 PM
And I'll hold my head high...and my nose even higher to anyone that would want to hate on me for it. 🤣
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 08:26:44 PM
I'd gladly take that ban if that was the bull I harvested.
And I'll hold my head high...and my nose even higher to anyone that would want to hate on me for it. 🤣
Thanks man. I'll gladly take any positive comments but happy to accept the hate or other comments with an open mind. Some day I'll have it all figured out and grow up.
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 10, 2024, 08:34:51 PM
I'd gladly take that ban if that was the bull I harvested.
And I'll hold my head high...and my nose even higher to anyone that would want to hate on me for it. 🤣
:yeah: x2
Post by: Craig on October 10, 2024, 08:44:37 PM
Congratulations
Post by: cjensen on October 10, 2024, 08:50:04 PM
I’m betting you knew the answer would have been no if you asked them. But I don’t think you broke any rules. awesome bull and if I ever win a raffle tag I’m hiring you to find some loopholes for me.
Congratulations
Deal! So long as I'm not in jail I'll be happy to help.
Post by: Mfowl on October 10, 2024, 09:14:25 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2024, 08:02:54 AM
Someone in the office never forcast this, or beleived the bullet would be dodged due to the odds of a permit holder acquiring this type of tag being so low. That is their oversight. They and the other permittees paid the price for that.
The OP implies he knew the intent of the law vs the letter hence avoiding direct contact to verify, ( I would have done the same thing ) perhaps that's not the case. Either way the outcome is the same and the intent of the rule is violated.
I 100 percent condone the actions of the OP...... in the same situation I probably would have done the same. At the same time I would have known deep down i was likely violating the intent of their rules and would take the ban on the chin.
Hancock probably did the op a favor, with his luck he would probably draw a kapowsin permit next year and not made it to hunting season before the bounty caught up to him.. :chuckle:
I agree we need MORE pics!!! Awesome animal!!
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2024, 08:08:54 AM
Post by: Harbor_hunter on October 11, 2024, 08:15:14 AM
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 08:26:48 AM
IMO, the ban is fair and should be upheld. This is a case of letter of the law vs intent. I believe the intent of the rule is to allow a high quality experience for those 11 tag holders during those respective seasons, AND an opportunity at a OIL type animal. It will take potentially 10 plus years to replace that bull.
Someone in the office never forcast this, or beleived the bullet would be dodged due to the odds of a permit holder acquiring this type of tag being so low. That is their oversight. They and the other permittees paid the price for that.
The OP implies he knew the intent of the law vs the letter hence avoiding direct contact to verify, ( I would have done the same thing ) perhaps that's not the case. Either way the outcome is the same and the intent of the rule is violated.
I 100 percent condone the actions of the OP...... in the same situation I probably would have done the same. At the same time I would have known deep down i was likely violating the intent of their rules and would take the ban on the chin.
Hancock probably did the op a favor, with his luck he would probably draw a kapowsin permit next year and not made it to hunting season before the bounty caught up to him.. :chuckle:
I agree we need MORE pics!!! Awesome animal!!
Fair comment and I don't necessarily disagree with most of it. The taxidermist did say that the bull was younger than he expected -- he guessed that the bull was at most 5 yo. I certainly didn't know their intent except that several threads on here had said that they were not opposed to it or specifically allowed it. In fact, the thread suggests that someone here on HuntWa had the raffle and got specific permission. This came from a 2015 thread called "West side tag". I didn't independently verify this conclusion or get specific permission, but I did carefully read the rules and the available information. I honestly had figured I'd fill my tag in the White River unit before the 20th, but did keep this in my back pocket as an option. I'm not totally surprised that they banned me, and I know it is their right to do so. Having said that, I figured it was just as likely that they'd receive my harvest card and say, "good for him".
Post by: Dan-o on October 11, 2024, 08:55:23 AM
That bull is such a pig. I keep re-looking at it.
You should consider quitting your day job to play the lottery professionally.
All the best to you.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 11, 2024, 09:00:02 AM
IMO, the ban is fair and should be upheld. This is a case of letter of the law vs intent. I believe the intent of the rule is to allow a high quality experience for those 11 tag holders during those respective seasons, AND an opportunity at a OIL type animal. It will take potentially 10 plus years to replace that bull.
Someone in the office never forcast this, or beleived the bullet would be dodged due to the odds of a permit holder acquiring this type of tag being so low. That is their oversight. They and the other permittees paid the price for that.
The OP implies he knew the intent of the law vs the letter hence avoiding direct contact to verify, ( I would have done the same thing ) perhaps that's not the case. Either way the outcome is the same and the intent of the rule is violated.
I 100 percent condone the actions of the OP...... in the same situation I probably would have done the same. At the same time I would have known deep down i was likely violating the intent of their rules and would take the ban on the chin.
Hancock probably did the op a favor, with his luck he would probably draw a kapowsin permit next year and not made it to hunting season before the bounty caught up to him.. :chuckle:
I agree we need MORE pics!!! Awesome animal!!
I’ll differ from you as I do not believe the ban is fair. Their rules state that they will ban you for a violation of the rules and regulations. I think their catch is “at the discretion of the owner”. Cjensen did not violate their written rules or regulations and really that’s on them.
Post by: Fidelk on October 11, 2024, 09:09:30 AM
Lol.... my guess someone with some "pull" had eyes on that guy. Tough to miss. I bet if you had dumped an average 320 the drama would have been significantly less.
Given human nature, probably this.
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 09:10:23 AM
Also..... the 2 moose. We need pics of those!!!!
I'll do a write-up on the moose in the Other Big game category. Luckily, the moose hunts were drama free.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2024, 09:39:19 AM
It would be wrong of Hancock to charge him with trespass because he didn't violate their rules. They believe he violated the intent of their rules, knowingly or not hence the ban. In this case I think a ban is justified. It would be for me. That little clause where they say they can ban for any reason tells a reasonble person if in doubt ask.
Like I said in an earlier post I believe if he had hunted without killing, killed a lesser bull or killed November 14th instead of Sept 20th, things might be different. But he didn't. Given the odds of drawing a permit in there, and the quality of the bull he killed my opinion is he made the right choice regardless.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2024, 09:42:44 AM
Also..... the 2 moose. We need pics of those!!!!
I'll do a write-up on the moose in the Other Big game category. Luckily, the moose hunts were drama free.
:tup: :tup:
Its not go time for blacktails yet..... keep the drama on :chuckle: I enjoy the debate and appreciate you for being level headed about the whole thing. Good luck on the future hunts!!
Post by: Gonehuntin01 on October 11, 2024, 09:42:53 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 11, 2024, 11:07:20 AM
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 11:46:30 AM
Congratulations, I think I might have skipped the reporting of it.🤣
Yeah...I hear that. It was a thought i had too but I knew word would eventually get out and I wanted to do things right down the middle.
Post by: elkrack on October 11, 2024, 12:16:01 PM
Post by: raydog on October 11, 2024, 12:17:19 PM
.
:peep:
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 11, 2024, 12:32:51 PM
This place has gotten soft,giving out atta boys for poaching trophy elk on private land where one must buy a key to gain access.The whole Westside of the state to hunt and just happened here by accident with a camera rolling?l hope you do post the vid and it pisses off the land owner and they come after you.
Not poaching, he had a valid tag and followed the rules. I suggest you read their rules and regulations before calling someone a poacher. If you read the rules and regulations, can you cite the rule he broke?
Post by: northwesthunter84 on October 11, 2024, 12:45:46 PM
Post by: Skillet on October 11, 2024, 12:49:12 PM
OP didn't break any laws, or WDFW regulations.
OP did, obviously to me, knowingly break the spirit of Hancock's rules. But since they didn't explicitly take into account raffle and Gov tag holders hunting outside of "normal" elk seasons, and he was a legal access permit key holder, he didn't actually break the written rules.
It definitely casts a pall on his accomplishment, imho.
And I'll give 10-1 odds that the rules for next year's permits specifically address Gov tag and raffle tags outside of "normal" elk seasons.
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 12:56:32 PM
There are Hancock rules, and there are WDFW regulations.
OP didn't break any laws, or WDFW regulations.
OP did, obviously to me, knowingly break the spirit of Hancock's rules. But since they didn't explicitly take into account raffle and Gov tag holders hunting outside of "normal" elk seasons, and he was a legal access permit key holder, he didn't actually break the written rules.
It definitely casts a pall on his accomplishment, imho.
And I'll give 10-1 odds that the rules for next year's permits specifically address Gov tag and raffle tags outside of "normal" elk seasons.
A true accomplishment is getting a general season bull of any kind around here. This was only a luxury...not a display of some great hunting talent. Certainly a bit of a cloud cast on the whole thing.
Post by: Skillet on October 11, 2024, 01:03:22 PM
There are Hancock rules, and there are WDFW regulations.
OP didn't break any laws, or WDFW regulations.
OP did, obviously to me, knowingly break the spirit of Hancock's rules. But since they didn't explicitly take into account raffle and Gov tag holders hunting outside of "normal" elk seasons, and he was a legal access permit key holder, he didn't actually break the written rules.
It definitely casts a pall on his accomplishment, imho.
And I'll give 10-1 odds that the rules for next year's permits specifically address Gov tag and raffle tags outside of "normal" elk seasons.
A true accomplishment is getting a general season bull of any kind around here. This was only a luxury...not a display of some great hunting talent. Certainly a bit of a cloud cast on the whole thing.
Roger that. Still an impressive animal. Commend you for putting it out there for discussion, it's a very interesting situation.
Post by: pd on October 11, 2024, 01:14:48 PM
It might seem very flippant for me to say this, but I think you should not worry a single cent over this. "Banned for life" means nothing when you have just had the best hunt of most hunters' lifetime.
Nobody cares. Congratulations, Sir!
Post by: highside74 on October 11, 2024, 01:18:33 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 01:26:42 PM
To the OP:
It might seem very flippant for me to say this, but I think you should not worry a single cent over this. "Banned for life" means nothing when you have just had the best hunt of most hunters' lifetime.
Nobody cares. Congratulations, Sir!
Thanks buddy!
Post by: westside bull on October 11, 2024, 01:29:10 PM
Post by: tgray on October 11, 2024, 01:47:17 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2024, 03:07:37 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on October 11, 2024, 03:09:57 PM
I'm generally resentful that the timber companies restrict access and sell permits. I hope they're mad they finally got end-arounded by the hunting public. I still think their tax incentives should be removed with the pathetic level of access they offer (need more permits to call it public access, and fee needs to be more nominal). I have no problem with them trying to control entry and exit into their property.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 11, 2024, 03:22:57 PM
Can we see a picture or copy of the ban notice? Since we're looking at photos? :chuckle:
I'm generally resentful that the timber companies restrict access and sell permits. I hope they're mad they finally got end-arounded by the hunting public. I still think their tax incentives should be removed with the pathetic level of access they offer (need more permits to call it public access, and fee needs to be more nominal). I have no problem with them trying to control entry and exit into their property.
What are the tax incentives?
Designated forest is a part of the current use tax program in Washington that provides a tax break on forestland. The requirement there is active management and the state gets taxes via forest excise tax when harvest occurs. There is no requirement for public access with designated forest.
There is"open space" designation as part of the current use program that does require public access, I have never met a private landowner enrolled in this tax classification though.
It's entirely possible there is an additional tax break I haven't encountered, can you point me towards it?
Hopefully this doesn't take the thread off topic too far.
Post by: luvmystang67 on October 11, 2024, 03:39:05 PM
Can we see a picture or copy of the ban notice? Since we're looking at photos? :chuckle:
I'm generally resentful that the timber companies restrict access and sell permits. I hope they're mad they finally got end-arounded by the hunting public. I still think their tax incentives should be removed with the pathetic level of access they offer (need more permits to call it public access, and fee needs to be more nominal). I have no problem with them trying to control entry and exit into their property.
What are the tax incentives?
Designated forest is a part of the current use tax program in Washington that provides a tax break on forestland. The requirement there is active management and the state gets taxes via forest excise tax when harvest occurs. There is no requirement for public access with designated forest.
There is"open space" designation as part of the current use program that does require public access, I have never met a private landowner enrolled in this tax classification though.
It's entirely possible there is an additional tax break I haven't encountered, can you point me towards it?
Hopefully this doesn't take the thread off topic too far.
It was a big thing when they first started charging, back in 2014. Back in the day, all the gates were just open... I couldn't find the specific tax, but I think its similar to tax breaks that Boeing gets. I realize that doesn't give me a lot of teeth in the argument.
https://www.chronline.com/stories/grays-harbor-county-takes-on-weyerhaeuser-over-fee-for-access,82454#google_vignette
Grays Harbor County Takes on Weyerhaeuser Over Fee for Access
Posted Wednesday, July 9, 2014 11:14 am
By Steven Friederich The Vidette
MONTESANO — The Grays Harbor County commissioners unanimously approved an ordinance aimed at taking on Weyerhaeuser and other large timber companies who have been charging hunters and others to access their private land for recreation purposes.
The ordinance will prohibit large landowners from getting a property tax break if they charge for access.
The only tweak in the original ordinance came from an amendment offered by sponsor Commissioner Wes Cormier, providing an exemption for small forest landowners who have harvested no more than an average timber volume of 2 million board feet per year. Timber companies will also still be allowed to charge for berry picking, mushroom picking and floral salal picking. The previous ordinance would have eliminated those incidental uses.
The decision by the county was not without some controversy, with farmers and timber owners in the community saying the county was infringing on their private property rights and hunters and outdoors enthusiasts, who insisted that large timber companies should not be gouging the community.
Before the commissioners made their decision, they took another 45 minutes of public comment from the 60 or so people in the room. The audience was about half as large as the numbers that overwhelmed the room two weeks ago.
Bill Pickell, the former executive director of Washington Contract Loggers who lives in Hoquiam, told the commissioners that he had no doubt that Weyerhaeuser would challenge the ordinance.
“It could be a costly issue and I hope you are prepared,” Pickell said.
Weyerhaeuser officials had issued a letter to the county last month threatening to challenge the ordinance or close off access completely if the county moves forward with its plans. Other large timber companies like Green Diamond and Rayonier never submitted comments to the county.
Montesano resident Howard Wilson, who serves as president of the Washington Farm Forestry Association, said the county was taking away distinct private property rights and encouraged the commissioners to work with Weyerhaeuser and ask them to make changes to offer reduced access fees for local residents, seniors and those with disabilities.
“I’m hoping a compromise will prevail,” Wilson told the commissioners.
County Commissioner Frank Gordon said that he and the other commissioners had individually met with Weyerhaeuser officials last month and the timber company wasn’t budging on its position.
“They’ve told us they won’t deal with you,” Gordon said. “We’ve asked them to deal with us.”
Gordon asked Pickell to help the county “bridge that gap.”
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“My suspicion is if they throw their cards on the table and tell you to ‘shove it’ they’ve got more behind this legally than you do,” Pickell said. “And that’s the part that scares me because I think you’re going to lose there and then they’re solidified in their position.”
“I’m not looking for a fight we can’t win but there are some things that are morally right,” Gordon said.
Weyerhaeuser officials say they’ve moved to a pay-for-access model in order to reduce vandalism and theft in their forests and offset rising dumping costs.
“They’re turning a great sport into a wealthy man’s sport,” said hunter Steve Bova of Ocean Shores, adding that “only an idiot would dump trash in the middle of hunting season” because just about any hunter would take down a license plate and report them.
Cormier said that this is “absolutely not a property rights taking,” noting that the program to get the tax break is something timber companies must opt into. It’s a company’s choice. And it’s the county’s choice, he says, to decide what goes in the required timber management plans.
“The ordinance doesn’t force a timber company to prevent access,” Cormier said. “It does not force a timber company to close down land. That would be their decision.”
“As far as the possible cost to the county for litigation fees, that is definitely a concern,” Commissioner Herb Welch said. “That is one of my concerns having lived through the last one we had. … But if we don’t do something, we’re not going to know what that might wind up being. If we pass this and we run up against huge amounts of lawyer fees to try to keep it on the books and keep the big companies from beating us down, we can back off. We put it into effect, we can take it out. But unless we put it into effect, we’re not going to know what happens next. As far as them locking up the land, that’s very possible. They have the right do that. As far as I’m concerned, they’re locking it up now.”
Gordon said he voted to support the measure “very unhappily.”
“I have been told by our attorney, whom I respect highly, that we don’t have a chance of an ice cube in hell,” Gordon said.”… When they take us to court, where will the money come from? It’s not like we’re fat cats with a great big wallet. I’m going to vote ‘yes’ on this hoping it brings Weyerhaeuser and Rayonier to the table.”
Cormier, who spearheaded the ordinance, thanked outdoor enthusiast Dan Boeholt and state Rep. Brian Blake, D-Aberdeen, for their suggestions in amending the ordinance and making it possible. He also thanked his fellow commissioners for their support.
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 03:49:59 PM
uote author=10thmountainarcher link=topic=288716.msg3925540#msg3925540 date=1728675171]It's pretty damn obvious,the land owner banned him for life for breaking their rules.They have their own drawing on who gets to hunt elk on their property and he wasn't one of them.As soon as that elk went down out of season on that particular private property he became a trespasser and a poacher regardless of what tag he had in his pocket.This place has gotten soft,giving out atta boys for poaching trophy elk on private land where one must buy a key to gain access.The whole Westside of the state to hunt and just happened here by accident with a camera rolling?l hope you do post the vid and it pisses off the land owner and they come after you.
Not poaching, he had a valid tag and followed the rules. I suggest you read their rules and regulations before calling someone a poacher. If you read the rules and regulations, can you cite the rule he broke?
[/quote]
Guilty until proven innocent. Rather than pointing out a rule I broke, you assert that because they banned me i must have broke some rule. Anyway, I expected plenty of this type of stuff when posting for your information and entertainment.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 11, 2024, 04:07:27 PM
uote author=10thmountainarcher link=topic=288716.msg3925540#msg3925540 date=1728675171]It's pretty damn obvious,the land owner banned him for life for breaking their rules.They have their own drawing on who gets to hunt elk on their property and he wasn't one of them.As soon as that elk went down out of season on that particular private property he became a trespasser and a poacher regardless of what tag he had in his pocket.This place has gotten soft,giving out atta boys for poaching trophy elk on private land where one must buy a key to gain access.The whole Westside of the state to hunt and just happened here by accident with a camera rolling?l hope you do post the vid and it pisses off the land owner and they come after you.
Not poaching, he had a valid tag and followed the rules. I suggest you read their rules and regulations before calling someone a poacher. If you read the rules and regulations, can you cite the rule he broke?
[/quote]
You’re so incorrect it’s not even funny.
Post by: Tinmaniac on October 11, 2024, 04:38:35 PM
Post by: catdog on October 11, 2024, 04:53:06 PM
Post by: GWP on October 11, 2024, 05:09:08 PM
It is a shame they did that. You did nothing wrong.
Well, other than taking a bull that they probably raised for one of their own, as has been stated. Did it have a branded or painted name on it, like Dave or Tom?
I have hunted tax break property before and I would say the vast majority of the time it is crappy hunting property, but hey, it gets them their tax break!
Sorry they put a damp rag on your successful hunt.
Post by: cjensen on October 11, 2024, 05:33:20 PM
Congrats on a great hunt!
It is a shame they did that. You did nothing wrong.
Well, other than taking a bull that they probably raised for one of their own, as has been stated. Did it have a branded or painted name on it, like Dave or Tom?
I have hunted tax break property before and I would say the vast majority of the time it is crappy hunting property, but hey, it gets them their tax break!
Sorry they put a damp rag on your successful hunt.
Thanks! No name on it that I could find, but it was tied to a tree.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 11, 2024, 06:11:53 PM
Post by: ducks4days on October 11, 2024, 06:34:52 PM
Sorry about getting banned from that plot, I'm wondering if reaching out to them after the season is over would yield any better luck. This seems like something they didnt want happening but didnt spell out, and rather than take the L they are taking it out on you.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on October 11, 2024, 07:18:42 PM
Not trying to take away from the animal and I am well aware of the cow tags. I put in for those cow tags too. Their rules state that the December/January cow tag is open on their farm.seems like this one really bothers you! Do you put in for raffles? If you do and are ever drawn I hope you only hunt archery during archery and muzzy during muzzy and so on. And definitely don’t hunt in between seasons (even though it’s legal to do so!!😂)🤦🏻.
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Awesome bull to the OP!! Bull of a lifetime
Post by: hughjorgan on October 12, 2024, 09:54:05 AM
Any ways great bull and thanks for sharing.
Post by: cjensen on October 12, 2024, 02:03:53 PM
What are the dates that only those that drew the Hancock special tags are allowed in there? Was the OP hunting during this time? That’s the only thing I can see that could get him a ban.
)
Any ways great bull and thanks for sharing.
Thanks! The closures are the early general elk seasons for all three weapons. I was between archery and muzzleloader on a day we were all invited back.
Post by: Romulus on October 12, 2024, 08:00:21 PM
Post by: The G Spot on October 12, 2024, 09:27:38 PM
Not trying to take away from the animal and I am well aware of the cow tags. I put in for those cow tags too. Their rules state that the December/January cow tag is open on their farm.seems like this one really bothers you! Do you put in for raffles? If you do and are ever drawn I hope you only hunt archery during archery and muzzy during muzzy and so on. And definitely don’t hunt in between seasons (even though it’s legal to do so!!😂)🤦🏻.
It’s been pretty clear from Hancock and before their ownership I believe that their private land tree farm is only open to bull elk hunting if you are drawn in their drawing. Also says they can pull your permit and ban you for whatever reason they want whenever they want. 🤷♂️. Its like rule 1 on their permit list.
OP defientely could have asked for clarification. Hillary and Mikaela get back to me same day when I have questions on the rec program. Although if he had done that this thread woulnt exist.
Awesome bull to the OP!! Bull of a lifetime
Ya I put in for raffles and I grew up 1/2 mile from that tree farm. I’m not surprised by any of the responses here about my comments. Everyone has an opinion. I told the OP it’s a hell of a bull. I think most people can read between the lines and put it all together, especially if you know anything about that tree farm. I’ll leave it at that.
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on October 13, 2024, 01:15:14 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: cjensen on October 13, 2024, 04:05:39 PM
Wait, they’re sending you an envelope and just expecting you to mail your permit and keys in. I’d tell them to pound sand and hold onto them
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct. I haven't seen it yet. They first said to send it back by the 15th or that they'd send WDFW. I told them to go ahead and send WDFW and then they offered to send a prepaid envelope.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 13, 2024, 06:00:12 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 13, 2024, 06:18:14 PM
Wait, they’re sending you an envelope and just expecting you to mail your permit and keys in. I’d tell them to pound sand and hold onto them
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct. I haven't seen it yet. They first said to send it back by the 15th or that they'd send WDFW. I told them to go ahead and send WDFW and then they offered to send a prepaid envelope.
That’s funny sending WDFW for legally killing an elk.🤣
Tell them to refund you for the permit and you’ll give it back.😉
Post by: Tenkara on October 13, 2024, 07:47:03 PM
Post by: westside bull on October 13, 2024, 08:00:25 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 13, 2024, 08:30:29 PM
Are they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 14, 2024, 07:31:03 AM
Are they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
What’s the 18 rule?
Post by: cjensen on October 14, 2024, 07:40:26 AM
Are they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
What’s the 18 rule?
"VIOLATION OF THESE RULES WILL, AT THE DISCRETION OF PROPERTY OWNERS, RESULT IN THE REVOCATION OF CAMPING PERMIT AND RECREATION ACCESS PERMIT. ALL SALES ARE FINAL; REFUNDS WILL NOT BE GIVEN FOR ANY REASON."
This is a duplicate rule for both the Camping and Motorized access rules and regulations. My contention to them is that I did not break any rules so this should not apply. I could continue fighting them and refuse to send back the key, but it isn't worth it for a few hundred dollars. While it seems unfair, to some other's points on here, I do still feel like I got the better end of the deal. This wasn't my Plan A this year, so I wont be without a plan if I'm lucky enough to get this tag some other year.
Post by: Dan-o on October 14, 2024, 08:58:53 AM
I really appreciate your perspective and your engagement on this.
I keep checking page 1 to see if that bull really is such a brute.
Post by: 2MANY on October 14, 2024, 09:14:54 AM
Please save me 7 pages.
Post by: luvmystang67 on October 14, 2024, 09:16:39 AM
Are they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
What’s the 18 rule?
"VIOLATION OF THESE RULES WILL, AT THE DISCRETION OF PROPERTY OWNERS, RESULT IN THE REVOCATION OF CAMPING PERMIT AND RECREATION ACCESS PERMIT. ALL SALES ARE FINAL; REFUNDS WILL NOT BE GIVEN FOR ANY REASON."
This is a duplicate rule for both the Camping and Motorized access rules and regulations. My contention to them is that I did not break any rules so this should not apply. I could continue fighting them and refuse to send back the key, but it isn't worth it for a few hundred dollars. While it seems unfair, to some other's points on here, I do still feel like I got the better end of the deal. This wasn't my Plan A this year, so I wont be without a plan if I'm lucky enough to get this tag some other year.
Why would you not keep fighting them? If you didn't break any written rule, fight on! Heck, just to make a point, you could have a lawyer send them a letter. That's probably what I would do, because you don't really have anything to lose at this point. I would love to see them bend on your situation (which would be entirely reasonable) and change the rules for the future. In some ways, I feel like you should always fight for what is reasonable based on the situation, and banning you for life doesn't seem reasonable when there was a hole in their rules. If they're going to not refund you because "technically they don't have to", then you "technically didn't have to check with them to do what you did"... :twocents:
sword cuts both ways
Post by: Tinmaniac on October 14, 2024, 11:46:39 AM
Post by: cjensen on October 14, 2024, 11:51:18 AM
I'm sure they will ban your brother as well when they figure out you are were working together,that's assuming brother from Georgia had a access permit.But then again all they need is a name.
You'd be great on an HOA board giving out $15 fines for grass being too long or garbage can lids not being completely closed.
Post by: cjensen on October 14, 2024, 12:10:17 PM
Are they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
What’s the 18 rule?
"VIOLATION OF THESE RULES WILL, AT THE DISCRETION OF PROPERTY OWNERS, RESULT IN THE REVOCATION OF CAMPING PERMIT AND RECREATION ACCESS PERMIT. ALL SALES ARE FINAL; REFUNDS WILL NOT BE GIVEN FOR ANY REASON."
This is a duplicate rule for both the Camping and Motorized access rules and regulations. My contention to them is that I did not break any rules so this should not apply. I could continue fighting them and refuse to send back the key, but it isn't worth it for a few hundred dollars. While it seems unfair, to some other's points on here, I do still feel like I got the better end of the deal. This wasn't my Plan A this year, so I wont be without a plan if I'm lucky enough to get this tag some other year.
Why would you not keep fighting them? If you didn't break any written rule, fight on! Heck, just to make a point, you could have a lawyer send them a letter. That's probably what I would do, because you don't really have anything to lose at this point. I would love to see them bend on your situation (which would be entirely reasonable) and change the rules for the future. In some ways, I feel like you should always fight for what is reasonable based on the situation, and banning you for life doesn't seem reasonable when there was a hole in their rules. If they're going to not refund you because "technically they don't have to", then you "technically didn't have to check with them to do what you did"... :twocents:
sword cuts both ways
I can already determine i am not going to get back in. I can get a legal opinion that states I didn't break any rules, but if you saw the nature of their responses you'd know that they don't care and aren't letting me back in. It's their property and I can appreciate that. I'm just glad I'm not in any trouble and they didn't pull out some rule i missed. I'm 100% confident I didn't do anything wrong and 100% confident that they intend to exercise their right to keep me off their property and make some sort of an example out of me. I've got nothing to lose but time and legally fees, and nothing to gain but winning an argument i don't care to win at this point.
Post by: JakeLand on October 14, 2024, 12:18:39 PM
exactly !! Great bull and good thinkingAre they refunding you $325 for the permit?
They claim Rule 18/25 allows them to not give a refund.
What’s the 18 rule?
"VIOLATION OF THESE RULES WILL, AT THE DISCRETION OF PROPERTY OWNERS, RESULT IN THE REVOCATION OF CAMPING PERMIT AND RECREATION ACCESS PERMIT. ALL SALES ARE FINAL; REFUNDS WILL NOT BE GIVEN FOR ANY REASON."
This is a duplicate rule for both the Camping and Motorized access rules and regulations. My contention to them is that I did not break any rules so this should not apply. I could continue fighting them and refuse to send back the key, but it isn't worth it for a few hundred dollars. While it seems unfair, to some other's points on here, I do still feel like I got the better end of the deal. This wasn't my Plan A this year, so I wont be without a plan if I'm lucky enough to get this tag some other year.
Why would you not keep fighting them? If you didn't break any written rule, fight on! Heck, just to make a point, you could have a lawyer send them a letter. That's probably what I would do, because you don't really have anything to lose at this point. I would love to see them bend on your situation (which would be entirely reasonable) and change the rules for the future. In some ways, I feel like you should always fight for what is reasonable based on the situation, and banning you for life doesn't seem reasonable when there was a hole in their rules. If they're going to not refund you because "technically they don't have to", then you "technically didn't have to check with them to do what you did"... :twocents:
sword cuts both ways
I can already determine i am not going to get back in. I can get a legal opinion that states I didn't break any rules, but if you saw the nature of their responses you'd know that they don't care and aren't letting me back in. It's their property and I can appreciate that. I'm just glad I'm not in any trouble and they didn't pull out some rule i missed. I'm 100% confident I didn't do anything wrong and 100% confident that they intend to exercise their right to keep me off their property and make some sort of an example out of me. I've got nothing to lose but time and legally fees, and nothing to gain but winning an argument i don't care to win at this point.
Post by: Taco280AI on October 14, 2024, 12:28:07 PM
Post by: Tinmaniac on October 14, 2024, 12:37:12 PM
Post by: big wood on October 14, 2024, 01:22:00 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 14, 2024, 01:37:27 PM
They allow fw cow whaler winners to hunt in there. Don't see what the big deal is. Take your trophy and run. Your not missing much as far a deer hunting so hunt somewhere else
Agreed and thank you. I'm certainly ready to put it behind me!
Post by: JakeLand on October 14, 2024, 06:58:42 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 14, 2024, 07:20:01 PM
I for one would like to see more pics !!
:yeah:
Post by: cjensen on October 14, 2024, 09:28:21 PM
I for one would like to see more pics !!
A whole video is coming out very soon! At least 2 of the 5000 people that read this subscribed to my bros youtube channel and will see the sneak peak video coming out in a week or two. :chuckle:
Post by: Dan-o on October 14, 2024, 09:47:53 PM
I for one would like to see more pics !!
A whole video is coming out very soon! At least 2 of the 5000 people that read this subscribed to my bros youtube channel and will see the sneak peak video coming out in a week or two. :chuckle:
I'm in!
Can't wait.
Post by: cjensen on October 20, 2024, 02:48:26 PM
Post by: Dan-o on October 20, 2024, 03:59:33 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 20, 2024, 04:27:02 PM
Well, the preview got the juices flowing!
I thought so too! He is good at adding a little drama. He has a lot of film making to do this year with the stuff that keeps dying in front of his lens.
Post by: bugs n bones on October 20, 2024, 05:57:40 PM
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 20, 2024, 07:32:05 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 20, 2024, 07:37:54 PM
Did your brother have a kapowsin pass too?I can't think of any non sarcastic response to this question...
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 20, 2024, 07:39:30 PM
Did your brother have a kapowsin pass too?I can't think of any non sarcastic response to this question...
That's about the response I expected.
This does no favors to hunters accessing private properties.
Post by: cjensen on October 20, 2024, 07:51:42 PM
Did your brother have a kapowsin pass too?I can't think of any non sarcastic response to this question...
That's about the response I expected.
This does no favors to hunters accessing private properties.
Thanks for the investigation on behalf of all hunters. Much needed as we didn't have time to read or follow the rules.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on October 20, 2024, 07:54:02 PM
Did your brother have a kapowsin pass too?I can't think of any non sarcastic response to this question...
That's about the response I expected.
This does no favors to hunters accessing private properties.
Thanks for the investigation on behalf of all hunters. Much needed as we didn't have time to read or follow the rules.
Got the sarcasm. Keep up the good work.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on October 21, 2024, 07:02:01 AM
So does the tag you possessed give you carte blanche permission to hunt wherever and whenever you want regardless the constraints levied by property owners? If the answer is no then it feels pretty obvious what you did. What IS kind of stunning having been on this site for many years is the accolades being showered upon you by people who know better but because it didn't impact them directly or they feel some kinda way about the timber company policies its o.k..
I could only imagine the outrage if you had entered an "old salts" or Bearpaws property and dropped that monster. Property owners can and do impose their own rules for their property. I can't by an elk tag in Montana and just happen to end up on the Harteise(sp) ranch, kill a OIL bull and think hey all is good i gotta tag. You would have likely been arrested, your animal and all your gear taken AND a ban. I wouldn't rest too easy until all this settles as more could possibly come your way.
All that being said its a dandy of a bull and i am sure the experience was memorable BUT C'MON man you/WE are better than that. Don't ever let your judgment be clouded by a trophy that you likeley seen in on previous trips. Whether its fish outta season, you're in a closed area, or on private property you will taint the whole rest of the hunting/fishing population. Character is what you do when you think no one else is watching.
Good Luck
Please read Kapowsins rules, then point out which one he violated. He purchased a permit and hunted within their posted rules. There was no trespassing involved. Your what if games are not the same.
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 07:21:31 AM
Kapowsin has a raffle elk hunt only as far as a i know.. Unless you are drawn from their paid to play bucket, you don't get to shoot an elk in there...PERIOD..Their property, their rules
Also- There are many many things in life that don't need to be spelled out to a to the enth degree for you or anybody else to understand.
Regs say i can shoot a blacktail in my backyard should that be the "bible" used to determine whether i can or not OR do i need to consider local laws that prevent me from shooting projectiles within certain limits?
I guess i could shoot it and say show me in the regs where it says i can't...and the officer says
That's one point of view and one that Kapowsin agrees with. It is at least an interesting topic to debate. I do challenge you to read their rules and you will find no rules that manage harvest. They only regulate access and allow hunting of all kinds, including elk outside of their lottery draw (cow elk).
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 07:42:54 AM
So does the tag you possessed give you carte blanche permission to hunt wherever and whenever you want regardless the constraints levied by property owners? If the answer is no then it feels pretty obvious what you did. What IS kind of stunning having been on this site for many years is the accolades being showered upon you by people who know better but because it didn't impact them directly or they feel some kinda way about the timber company policies its o.k..
I could only imagine the outrage if you had entered an "old salts" or Bearpaws property and dropped that monster. Property owners can and do impose their own rules for their property. I can't by an elk tag in Montana and just happen to end up on the Harteise(sp) ranch, kill a OIL bull and think hey all is good i gotta tag. You would have likely been arrested, your animal and all your gear taken AND a ban. I wouldn't rest too easy until all this settles as more could possibly come your way.
All that being said its a dandy of a bull and i am sure the experience was memorable BUT C'MON man you/WE are better than that. Don't ever let your judgment be clouded by a trophy that you likeley seen in on previous trips. Whether its fish outta season, you're in a closed area, or on private property you will taint the whole rest of the hunting/fishing population. Character is what you do when you think no one else is watching.
Good Luck
It sounds to me like you are unaware of the raffle tag and what it allows. It also sounds like you may not have read the Kapowsin rules. You are correct that the tag does not allow me to just trespass on private property and shoot whatever I feel like. This is precisely why I had to buy an access pass and strictly abide by their rules. There is no accusation or issue with trespassing. I would challenge you to familiarize yourself with the raffle tag rules and the Hancock rules and I think you may at least see a grey area. Having said that, this has been a learning lesson for me. Thanks for your comments and contributions to what has been quite an interesting debate. If everyone agreed with me, it wouldnt be much of a debate or interesting topic.
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 07:54:57 AM
I've hunted it- I had a spring bear tag in there and they obviously sell tags for other animals during other seasons and then they draw for their bull elk tags right from the 1200 or so permits that were sold to hunt in there? Only so many for each weapon, archery, muzzy etc..Is that the tag you had in your pocket? YES or No? The answer is really that easy...Yes or NOThanks again for your comments. I didn't answer the access pass about my brother as the answer should be obvious to all. Kapowsin will see this post and will be able to confirm that fact quite easily. I cannot even take my own wife in there without her having her own pass. I didn't post on here so I could answer investigatory questions. Why not also ask me if I tagged him properly, or perhaps if I took out all the meat or just the antlers. Perhaps I dont actually have the state's Westside Raffle tag and the real tag holder will pipe up soon? I answered your questions/comments/opinion, as well as every other opinion with as much respect as possible, but refuse to answer questions like that. Again, I respect your opinion and will continue to try to improve as a person and hunter and make sure we're all representing hunting in the best light possible so that we have a sport to pass down to our kids.
If not, coming from your hunting background, I think you know your wrong. But whats done is done and i am sure more stringent controls will be put on outdoorsmen as a result, whether its just at Kapowsin or state wide. But hey you got your OIL bull on film and screw all the others right?
And there was a question posed to you about your brother and whether he had a tag which you slipped and dipped like Ali in his prime which doesn't sound to me like he did.. Cuz if memory serves me you are not allowed in there without a permit unless they are under a certain age. Not even to help recover! SMH I dunno guy
Post by: Romulus on October 21, 2024, 07:55:53 AM
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 08:09:50 AM
I have a question, How did you take the bull from the property? was it openly displayed in the back of the truck and shown to workers, other trucks, etc or was it discreetly taken out with just the harvest card slipped into the box at the gate. Was it celebrated as it would have been if you knew for certain you were ok to be in there if you had confirmed with them you were good to go? Only you and your brother know how this was done. As I stated before you did not break any of their rules......but as someone who had the raffle and was told I could not hunt it I also know why you didnt ask.
I put it in the back of my truck, not hidden, and I drove out proud. There was only one other hunter that we passed, and they came back and wanted to see the thing. We talked for 15 or 20 minutes at the gate while I filled out the green harvest card and then we left. I already addressed the question earlier about asking/not asking, and mentioned that I probably should have. My lifetime ban suggests that to be true. Having said that, the rules did not prohibit it, and I pointed to a particular titled post on here where the raffle tag person was specifically allowed to hunt Kapowsin. The rules being what they are, and specific references to the raffle tag hunter being given permission, led me not to ask and to just do it. In addition, I figured I'd be tagged out in the White River and over hunting for moose by the time I was hunting Hancock. I only had a 320" goal for elk since I had so many other things to hunt. I never thought I'd even make it there. I also have spent extremely little time in Kapowsin and had never even seen an elk in there. I figured I had a better chance in areas I was familiar. Turned out not to be true...
Post by: JakeLand on October 21, 2024, 08:20:58 AM
Post by: Bullkllr on October 21, 2024, 08:29:09 AM
The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.
Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."
Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 10:22:43 AM
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf (https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf)
The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.
Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."
Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic. The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin. In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me. During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin). Email only. There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...
It really isn't more complicated than has already been described. They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season. Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules. Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since). Did their unspoken intentions change since then? Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent. I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time. I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)
Post by: Caseyd on October 21, 2024, 10:27:00 AM
Since it keeps getting mentioned and I haven't seen it posted: https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf (https://manulifeimlanduse.com/sites/default/files/property-recreation-maps/kapowsin-2024-rulesfinal.pdf)
The most pertinent sections seem to be #4-5.
Been trying to avoid this one :bash:, but I have to wonder how different some responses might be if it was a different landowner involved. Being consistently supportive of landowners' rights and wishes seems universal on this forum over the years.
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."
Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
He did exactly what you posted. Stayed out of there during elk season :dunno:
He bought a pass to enter. He just gets to hunt “out of elk season” and not during those restricted times. Yes, we can all assume the raffle tags and governor tag will be added to their rules
Post by: Bullkllr on October 21, 2024, 11:03:28 AM
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."
Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic. The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin. In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me. During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin). Email only. There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...
It really isn't more complicated than has already been described. They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season. Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules. Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since). Did their unspoken intentions change since then? Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent. I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time. I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)
I'm just saying how Kapowsin manages elk season access is widely known, but you knew that. And essentially restricting access amounts to managing harvest.
I've read through all the pages of posts. I can't find the historical precedent mentioned, but I must say that would change my perspective dramatically. Romulus I believe mentioned he held a raffle tag and was denied hunting it on the tree farm.
Have fun. Great bull, not much else to say...
Post by: deerlick on October 21, 2024, 01:24:59 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 02:57:08 PM
Say the hunter meets with said landowner and is told he can hunt deer, bear, small game, etc. and can also collect berries, mushrooms and firewood. He gets a key to come and go mostly as he pleases. Landowner says something like, "Oh, btw, we manage our own bull elk hunts and you can't even enter the property during elk seasons unless you have specific permission in the form of one of our permits." They've been doing this for decades and everybody in the local hunting community is amply aware of it. The hunting community is also aware of the mature bulls the area grows because of this program. All is good until the hunter pops an exceptional bull elk courtesy of his raffle tag, which he never mentioned he had. Hunter's response is something along the lines of, "Well, you didn't say I couldn't..."
Is this situation really that much different because it's the faceless "Manulife Global" and their written rules weren't explicit enough despite the intent?
Thanks for posting the rules as that is helpful for an informed discussion on the topic. The above hypothetical 1 on 1 in-person conversation is a nice thought to consider, but far from the actual experience of dealing with Kapowsin. In your proposed situation, it would have absolutely been very different for me. During the recent process, it wasn't even possible to have a conversation with anybody (including the admin). Email only. There is a difference in working an unreachable faceless entity that you pay for certain access via their rules than some Farmer Joe being kind and letting you on their land and saying some "oh by the way"...
It really isn't more complicated than has already been described. They don't regulate elk harvest; they regulate access during general season. Some unknown "community", of which i am clearly not a part, seems to magically know their unspoken intent behind the rules. Unless the people on this forum were telling a tall tale, hunting the raffle tag was allowed in the very recent past (no rule changes since). Did their unspoken intentions change since then? Hindsight says I should have probably asked for specific permission rather than going by the letter of the law or by historical precedent. I paid the price and will continue to take criticism here for some time. I hope someone is at least having fun reading this... :)
I'm just saying how Kapowsin manages elk season access is widely known, but you knew that. And essentially restricting access amounts to managing harvest.
I've read through all the pages of posts. I can't find the historical precedent mentioned, but I must say that would change my perspective dramatically. Romulus I believe mentioned he held a raffle tag and was denied hunting it on the tree farm.
Have fun. Great bull, not much else to say...
Thank you! This is the forum I was referring to: https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,171183.msg2262737.html#msg2262737
Read the third page of this forum where several folks had 1st hand conversations and others on this site were helping some raffle guy. It references the fact that Kapowsin specifically allowed the raffle tag holder to hunt there, but they couldnt get a pass before it was sold out. History tells me I was somehow wrong, this thread was wrong, and/or they changed their mind. I first read and reread the rules, and then I went off of information like this to make what ended up being a last-minute decision when the WR unit hadn't worked out yet. Again, plenty of lessons learned here about asking permission anyway, and not trusting everything you read on the internet even if you want it to be true...
Post by: Romulus on October 21, 2024, 03:29:24 PM
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 21, 2024, 04:29:45 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 05:15:47 PM
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.Well maybe tomorrow when you change your mind you can come back and leave another comment. Who cares about the size of the elk or anybody else's elk. I wasn't going for some monster or concerned what you or anybody else thought of it. As for the youtube, my brother is excited about his channel. He hasn't made a dime and isn't even close to doing so, but we are having fun being hacks and making some amateur hunting videos. Tons of us in this state and everywhere else would love to be Meateater or some variant and make a living hunting! Having said that, if I was doing this for money, this would be the worst investment in history. I went to a hunting forum to share hunting pictures and hunting videos only to have you offended that I share/plug such a thing. What did you hope to read about and watch here buddy?
Post by: BA Mongor on October 21, 2024, 05:16:17 PM
Great Story....Great Drama & One Big Azz Bull !!
Post by: cjensen on October 21, 2024, 05:58:56 PM
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter.Cute story but you don't purchase a raffle and you don't find out whether you won until nearly August. All of my money was spent on moose and westside elk was an afterthought. This year the Kapowsin passes didn't sell out and were still available in September. Anyway, we will hear from you tomorrow when you do a bit more reading I'm sure. Gives ya something to do anyway...
With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had.
Instead he-
Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES.
So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle.
What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asks
NON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity.
It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.
Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? Nah
I've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back
Post by: Caseyd on October 21, 2024, 06:03:01 PM
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter.
With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had.
Instead he-
Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES.
So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle.
What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asks
NON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity.
It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.
Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? Nah
I've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back
Rules usually don’t change until something causes them to be changed. He broke no rules and the rules will probably be changed. We got lucky and he shared the story.
Sounds like the guy researched the duck out of his options and followed everything to the letter. You might not like what he did but there’s a lot less informed, less decent people running around the woods.
I would have to wager there isn’t much chatter from “old timers” because they’ve said their congrats and moved on.
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 21, 2024, 06:42:49 PM
This whole situation, the excuse that you used the forum for the rules and not contacting kapowsin, the shameless YouTube plugs, it all reeks of 💩. I think you knew exactly what you were doing. I think this is further indication of where hunting is going in the future and a bad look for our community. I think I posted in my initial post I said good on you for reading between the lines, but now that I think about the circumstances of your raffle and some of the absolute giants I see killed in this state that don’t require reading between the lines, kind of just makes this not even really worth it.Well maybe tomorrow when you change your mind you can come back and leave another comment. Who cares about the size of the elk or anybody else's elk. I wasn't going for some monster or concerned what you or anybody else thought of it. As for the youtube, my brother is excited about his channel. He hasn't made a dime and isn't even close to doing so, but we are having fun being hacks and making some amateur hunting videos. Tons of us in this state and everywhere else would love to be Meateater or some variant and make a living hunting! Having said that, if I was doing this for money, this would be the worst investment in history. I went to a hunting forum to share hunting pictures and hunting videos only to have you offended that I share/plug such a thing. What did you hope to read about and watch here buddy?
Eh I wouldn’t say I’m offended, just think you’re a bit of a blue falcon to the hunting community, for some clout. Some people hunt because they love it, some hunt because they love attention. I’m probably wrong, but you know they say about perception.
Post by: Tinmaniac on October 21, 2024, 06:52:45 PM
Post by: big wood on October 21, 2024, 06:55:49 PM
Post by: Feathernfurr on October 21, 2024, 07:01:00 PM
Post by: Tinmaniac on October 21, 2024, 07:05:05 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on October 21, 2024, 07:38:04 PM
So i spent sometime on this in the morning and looked around and thru the reg's and Kapowsin's rules and what it looks like to me- He obtained this coveted "raffle"tag sometime in what April? Remembers seeing something that was posted on here in 2015 about a previous winner of the tag. Thru those threads there were varying ideas and opinions of the way the state Reg's and Kapowsin "rules" read and what they were intended to provide as far as guidance to the hunter.
With an expensive tag purchased most people would want to be absolutely sure of their destination, and that destination would provide great opportunities to harvest a great bull AND that you could in fact hunt elk on that property out of "normal" season as provided by the tag you had.
Instead he-
Concocts a plan to go in and hunt the Kapowsin tree farm, ( bear if anybody asks), and buys an access pass that allows you to hunt various animals during their regulated seasons. However because Kapowsin doesn't allow bull elk hunting except for certain dates depending on your chosen weapon, his raffle tag says he can hunt from Sept. 1 thru December 31st or whatever with whatever weapon HE CHOOSES.
So he buys 2 access passes (allegedly) and he and his brother go in and film him taking the bull of a lifetime shot on Sept, 20th just after archery season but before the muzzleloaders, with his modern rifle.
What would Kapowsin mgnt. think you were in there to shoot in Sept in the rut? But i guess if nobody asks
NON of this happened by chance... it was a calculated move. The tag you possessed was never divulged to the property owners because you believed they wouldn't have allowed you to hunt in there so you kept quiet and exploited an opportunity.
It may have worked out for you in terms of getting your tag filled but all the things this site likes to hang its hat on like character, integrity, decency, stewardship of conservation took a huge hit with your big adventure.
Probably why many old-timers on this site that have gone really quiet around this story-By chance? Nah
I've said my peace you will be lucky if your only punishment is not being able to come back
Rules usually don’t change until something causes them to be changed. He broke no rules and the rules will probably be changed. We got lucky and he shared the story.
Sounds like the guy researched the duck out of his options and followed everything to the letter. You might not like what he did but there’s a lot less informed, less decent people running around the woods.
I would have to wager there isn’t much chatter from “old timers” because they’ve said their congrats and moved on.
I’m confused then. He didn’t break any rules yet they banned him for life? Sounds like he broke some rule of the landowners. This whole thread is bizarre. Dude could any elk at any time with any weapon and he just so happened to harvest a great bull in an area he wasn’t allowed to. He says he read the rules, twice, but then someone else posted a screen shot of the rules that clearly showed he had to get permission beforehand. Ignorance, stupidity or malevolence makes no difference. What should have been a great bull and a great hunt is now tainted by this perception. It’s a bummer
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 21, 2024, 07:55:08 PM
Did I miss the part where DFW was involved and seized the bull pending investigation?
Banned for life? Criminal trespass or just don't come back...
Trying to decipher perception and reality...seems if there was more to be done the landowners would of done it. :dunno:
Post by: Platensek-po on October 21, 2024, 08:05:02 PM
Cool elk..
Did I miss the part where DFW was involved and seized the bull pending investigation?
Banned for life? Criminal trespass or just don't come back...
Trying to decipher perception and reality...seems if there was more to be done the landowners would of done it. :dunno:
It sounds like he a legal right to be there and a legal
Right to hunt elk. He didn’t have landowner permission to hunt the elk. Legally it would probably be a huge mess and not worth the landowners time. So he broke their rules and they won’t be having back. End of the day it’s not a huge deal but it also just seems unnecessary, especially given the tag he had in hand.
Post by: actionshooter on October 21, 2024, 08:24:30 PM
Post by: Shoofly09 on October 21, 2024, 08:50:30 PM
Don't spend a dime fighting the ban. You've already won.
Post by: idahohuntr on October 21, 2024, 09:28:47 PM
Post by: cjensen on October 22, 2024, 07:07:15 AM
Post by: Taco280AI on October 22, 2024, 07:20:56 AM
Post by: milldozer on October 22, 2024, 07:45:09 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on October 22, 2024, 09:06:20 AM
Post by: Roslyn Rambler on October 22, 2024, 09:14:12 AM
Just curious what your answer would. Because they love hunting topics and controversy like this.
What if MeatEater Podcast contacted you ( if not already ) and wanted to do a segment with you & your brother.
Would you do it?
Post by: JakeLand on October 22, 2024, 12:20:12 PM
Hell I’ll root for the tribal hunter long before I back the flat brim alpacas and influencers.you’re funny and cute 😊
Post by: Bob Williams1 on October 22, 2024, 01:12:09 PM
I sent him a personal version of this message and he graciously accepted my apology. I don't feel it was right to come at somebody with my whole chest, and then when you have a chance to reflect on what you're actually feeding into, and feel differently about it, you quietly send him and apology. I wanted to share that apology with all of you who sadly bore witness to a bunch pi$$y feelings over something that wasn't really my issue.
CJensen-
I have pulled all the messages, that i could, that were posted yesterday on the thread that were filled with a bunch of emoti...SHEEEEET actually regarding the Kapowsin hunt. Having looked at your guys' videos and your family doing great things together, I have to apologize for my diatribe(s) and contributing to any of the vitriol that has come your way as a result of my "opinion" on what happened.
You honestly seem..You are a solid guy who loves and enjoys the outdoors to the fullest. I can totally appreciate all the effort you put into your hunts and the brotherhood you guys have out in the middle of nowhere. . I still don't agree...never mind its my problem not yours. :chuckle:
Please accept my apology as i know it's a tough situation for you personally and doesn't get any better or change anything as we kick you when your down. Fellow outdoorsmen should'nt act that way to each other and i'm sorry for being any part of it.
Again I apologize and wish you continued success on your hunts and your brothers videos ARE good and something he should be proud of.
Bob
Post by: cjensen on October 22, 2024, 01:18:35 PM
I would like to take a chance to apologize to CJensen-Thanks again Bob. Much appreciated.
I sent him a personal version of this message and he graciously accepted my apology. I don't feel it was right to come at somebody with my whole chest, and then when you have a chance to reflect on what you're actually feeding into, and feel differently about it, you quietly send him and apology. I wanted to share that apology with all of you who sadly bore witness to a bunch pi$$y feelings over something that wasn't really my issue.
CJensen-
I have pulled all the messages, that i could, that were posted yesterday on the thread that were filled with a bunch of emoti...SHEEEEET actually regarding the Kapowsin hunt. Having looked at your guys' videos and your family doing great things together, I have to apologize for my diatribe(s) and contributing to any of the vitriol that has come your way as a result of my "opinion" on what happened.
You honestly seem..You are a solid guy who loves and enjoys the outdoors to the fullest. I can totally appreciate all the effort you put into your hunts and the brotherhood you guys have out in the middle of nowhere. . I still don't agree...never mind its my problem not yours. :chuckle:
Please accept my apology as i know it's a tough situation for you personally and doesn't get any better or change anything as we kick you when your down. Fellow outdoorsmen should'nt act that way to each other and i'm sorry for being any part of it.
Again I apologize and wish you continued success on your hunts and your brothers videos ARE good and something he should be proud of.
Bob
Post by: Rainier10 on October 22, 2024, 01:52:21 PM
If anyone wants to modify their previous posts or have heir post completely removed hit the report to moderator button or pm me.
There is some great discussion to be had here but we don’t want to trash a guy for sharing his story.
Post by: ducks4days on October 22, 2024, 01:54:03 PM
I would like to take a chance to apologize to CJensen-
I sent him a personal version of this message and he graciously accepted my apology. I don't feel it was right to come at somebody with my whole chest, and then when you have a chance to reflect on what you're actually feeding into, and feel differently about it, you quietly send him and apology. I wanted to share that apology with all of you who sadly bore witness to a bunch pi$$y feelings over something that wasn't really my issue.
CJensen-
I have pulled all the messages, that i could, that were posted yesterday on the thread that were filled with a bunch of emoti...SHEEEEET actually regarding the Kapowsin hunt. Having looked at your guys' videos and your family doing great things together, I have to apologize for my diatribe(s) and contributing to any of the vitriol that has come your way as a result of my "opinion" on what happened.
You honestly seem..You are a solid guy who loves and enjoys the outdoors to the fullest. I can totally appreciate all the effort you put into your hunts and the brotherhood you guys have out in the middle of nowhere. . I still don't agree...never mind its my problem not yours. :chuckle:
Please accept my apology as i know it's a tough situation for you personally and doesn't get any better or change anything as we kick you when your down. Fellow outdoorsmen should'nt act that way to each other and i'm sorry for being any part of it.
Again I apologize and wish you continued success on your hunts and your brothers videos ARE good and something he should be proud of.
Bob
Good on you for saying this and doing it publicly. The world we be a better place if people showed more humility and honor like you do. Much respect.
Post by: Fidelk on October 22, 2024, 02:43:24 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 22, 2024, 02:48:26 PM
Post by: westsidehntr on October 22, 2024, 02:59:05 PM
I'm still a little blown away that mods have turned a blind eye to this thread. It's a success thread and we are supposed to have VERY strict rules about trashing on a success thread :dunno: Obviously the OP has thick skin and can handle it but that shouldn't matter. It's pretty disappointing if I'm being honest :twocents:
Ehhh… The OP puts banned for life in his title, states multiple times he knows by posting it he is opening himself up to criticism. I think it was part of his intent to have the controversial discussion on this thread.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 22, 2024, 03:01:46 PM
irrelevant. The rule that's been pounded home endlessly is no bashing success threads. There's endless repercussions to the bashing. Site traffic is down like 75% from just a few years ago. Bashing of success is one of the many reasons for that.I'm still a little blown away that mods have turned a blind eye to this thread. It's a success thread and we are supposed to have VERY strict rules about trashing on a success thread :dunno: Obviously the OP has thick skin and can handle it but that shouldn't matter. It's pretty disappointing if I'm being honest :twocents:
Ehhh… The OP puts banned for life in his title, states multiple times he knows by posting it he is opening himself up to criticism. I think it was part of his intent to have the controversial discussion on this thread.
Post by: Rainier10 on October 22, 2024, 03:10:02 PM
I immediately locked this thread and removed it from the forum while’s mods discussed it and discussed it with OP. He wanted it to remain and wanted there to be discussion. He knew it was controversial.irrelevant. The rule that's been pounded home endlessly is no bashing success threads. There's endless repercussions to the bashing. Site traffic is down like 75% from just a few years ago. Bashing of success is one of the many reasons for that.I'm still a little blown away that mods have turned a blind eye to this thread. It's a success thread and we are supposed to have VERY strict rules about trashing on a success thread :dunno: Obviously the OP has thick skin and can handle it but that shouldn't matter. It's pretty disappointing if I'm being honest :twocents:
Ehhh… The OP puts banned for life in his title, states multiple times he knows by posting it he is opening himself up to criticism. I think it was part of his intent to have the controversial discussion on this thread.
Since then I have again discussed with him how he wanted to proceed and here we are.
I will say that the forum rules still apply to all other success threads. This one is the exception to that rule.
I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way you do.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 22, 2024, 03:15:03 PM
Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification. Like you, I still don't like it at all.I immediately locked this thread and removed it from the forum while’s mods discussed it and discussed it with OP. He wanted it to remain and wanted there to be discussion. He knew it was controversial.irrelevant. The rule that's been pounded home endlessly is no bashing success threads. There's endless repercussions to the bashing. Site traffic is down like 75% from just a few years ago. Bashing of success is one of the many reasons for that.I'm still a little blown away that mods have turned a blind eye to this thread. It's a success thread and we are supposed to have VERY strict rules about trashing on a success thread :dunno: Obviously the OP has thick skin and can handle it but that shouldn't matter. It's pretty disappointing if I'm being honest :twocents:
Ehhh… The OP puts banned for life in his title, states multiple times he knows by posting it he is opening himself up to criticism. I think it was part of his intent to have the controversial discussion on this thread.
Since then I have again discussed with him how he wanted to proceed and here we are.
I will say that the forum rules still apply to all other success threads. This one is the exception to that rule.
I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way you do.
Post by: nwhunter on October 23, 2024, 09:35:55 AM
Post by: cjensen on November 09, 2024, 08:53:28 AM
Post by: Taco280AI on November 09, 2024, 09:31:01 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on November 09, 2024, 09:35:44 AM
Post by: cjensen on November 09, 2024, 09:37:59 AM
WDFW out chasing keys around instead of enforcing rules and being in the field :dunno:
Yup...pretty dumb! The guy was very nice and clearly was not happy to be out running errands.
Post by: Dan-o on November 09, 2024, 10:03:58 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 09, 2024, 10:22:52 AM
WDFW out chasing keys around instead of enforcing rules and being in the field :dunno:
Yup...pretty dumb! The guy was very nice and clearly was not happy to be out running errands.
Actually kinda surprising they showed up.
Acting as an enforcement agent for a private company when no crime has been committed.
Contracted or not....
Mount looks good.. :tup:
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 09, 2024, 12:01:33 PM
They get contracted out. Usually do this stuff in there off hours.
In my opinion, if this was truly “off-duty” work, it should not be occurring during hunting season. I’d rather the state pay these fellas OT to be in the field more, than a private company utilizing them as their muscle to handle civil issues.
I think a Euro was the perfect mount for that bull. The dark antlers with the contrasting white skull looks amazing!
Post by: String Bender on November 09, 2024, 05:37:13 PM
Post by: OltHunter on November 09, 2024, 06:26:58 PM
Post by: cjensen on November 09, 2024, 06:45:20 PM
Post by: Fidelk on November 09, 2024, 07:40:19 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on November 10, 2024, 02:54:39 AM
The euro looks great on your wall. :tup:
:yeah: Beautiful job on the euro.
Post by: GWP on November 10, 2024, 07:42:24 AM
Just curious, did you find any initials or name of the person it was designated for engraved in the horns?
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: cjensen on November 10, 2024, 08:12:57 AM
What a great mount! Amazing!
Just curious, did you find any initials or name of the person it was designated for engraved in the horns?
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Haha...not yet. Mine certainly were not there. Thanks!
Post by: TriggerMike on November 10, 2024, 08:31:07 PM
Kapowsin had plenty of opportunities to change/clarify their own rules after previous raffle tag holders inquired about this very thing in years past. They're lazy and didn't do it. I'm 100% on team OP here. Sounds like an epic hunt.
I have zero qualms with our game wardens but the fact that they showed up knowing no laws were broken and acknowledged that to you but did it anyway is very problematic IMO, but that may be a topic for a different thread.
Post by: KNOPHISH on November 11, 2024, 07:03:55 AM
Post by: cjensen on November 11, 2024, 08:27:41 AM
How many raffle tags are there on west side? One or two? If this is an elk farm one extra bull being taken isn’t hurting. It could have been hit by a car or taken by a tribal hunter, cougar or wolf. They could just leave it open for that tag.There is one raffle and one auction tag. Most years, the raffle and auction occur after all access passes sell out. This is probably the only reason this hasn't happened before.