Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 09:30:31 AM
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 03:21:04 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 29, 2009, 03:22:08 PM
who do you mean?
Post by: jackelope on June 29, 2009, 03:22:47 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 03:35:51 PM
they put there damn drop camps right in the middle of prime hunting areas, than decide to put them in every basin they can. if some guy brings in his own horses thats fine, he did the work. but this brings in crowds of guys who have the money to spend, and (atleast here in western wa) we dont have these huge wilderness areas. ran into a hiker last year and he said the military most be doing somethin up here cause i've past by tons of these army tents on my trip. im not the best at writing what im trying to say, but i think you can get my point. a wilderness area is a place that you go to to get away from people and things like this. when you make it easy guys who have money will pay for it, and i know hunting in the wilderness i go to has change alot because of them :twocents:. dont commercialize a wilderness area :twocents:
Post by: Ray on June 29, 2009, 03:38:00 PM
Ever heard of a national park? :chuckle: Completely commercialized.
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 03:46:49 PM
Post by: Ray on June 29, 2009, 03:48:45 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 29, 2009, 03:56:32 PM
can you hunt national parks
Depends 8)
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 29, 2009, 04:19:10 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 05:02:57 PM
One huge misconception that a lot of people have is that guides serve nothing but a lot of rich guys. Quite honestly I wished I had a whole database file of rich guys. My wife and I are operating at about 30% of normal business this year because 70% of our hunters can't afford to come hunting with us this year.
The majority of our hunters are ordinary working folks who work their butts off most of the year and don't have the time to go scouting before season. We get a cross section of hunters that are small business owners, police officers, factory workers, farmers, boeing employees, plumbers, loggers, other hunting and fishing guides, government employees, taxidermists, lawyers, doctors, mechanics, construction workers, steel workers, electricians, grandpa's, grandkids, wives, husbands, etc., etc.
Everything I do on Government Lands is strictly controlled and over-use is not an option. Operating plans are required and every camp site must be approved by the agency involved. The agencies request that my campsites are off the beaten path, out of site as much as possible, and cause the least impact to the public.
If you are seeing a lot of army surplus tents and people camped all over the place, those are do-it-yourself hunters. No outfitter that I know would pack a heavy army tent into the mountains, we use the lightweight outfitter wall tents. However, more and more regular hunters are using wall tents too, so please don't think that every wall tent is an outfitter too.
The other thing to remember is that the other hunters you see may be thinking the exact same thing about you. They may think you should not be allowed in the wilderness because you are ruining their experience.
I think we should all be glad that we are allowed to use the land and that we should support each other so we can all continue using the land. I respect everyone's opinion and only hope that everyone will find a way to get along so we all get to continue recreating in the outdoors. :twocents: :hello:
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 05:44:19 PM
every one should and has the right to go in there, im not talking bout that. im saying having someone do it for you shouldnt be going on in wilderness areas. if something is easy everyone will do it, its when you have to work that makes a great hunting. with these drop camps it commercializes the area. i would love to bring in horses but i dont have them, tough for me as it should be for the other guys.
i think a similar situation would be this, i have hounds and get to apply for a lion tag with the use of hounds. now if every guy would be allowed to put in for those tags it'd screw me over completly in a already screwed up system. i guess a better thing to compare it to would be this: an area you hunted that is completly closed off to motorized vechles now is open to everyone to drive in. well what happens? its now an easy area to hunt which brings in people, and hunting goes down the drain along with the wildlife. i know its not the same so plz dont tell me that, but the concept is
i hate to see this continue as it is ruining the wilderness i hunt, im not sure how the whole system works but there area definetly to many drop camps. im glad they close off some areas to live stock, and i wish they'd do more to keep the drop camps away. if you wanna bring in your own live stock wether it be goats, lamas, horses, mules, whatever more power to ya. but when you can pay some one to do it for you and they make a profit out of it along with the state, so long hunting.
and im not saying all areas should be closed, i say this cause someone will interpet thats what im saying, i just beleive that some lands should be off limits
Post by: coldsteel3d on June 29, 2009, 06:00:59 PM
Post by: zackmioli on June 29, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Post by: Ray on June 29, 2009, 06:07:30 PM
Post by: gasman on June 29, 2009, 06:08:38 PM
Houndhunter, I am sorry you got burned, some how to give you such a bad taste for drop camps in wilderness.
I my self have never but would like to go on a drop camp some day (right now i can not afford it).
I think the availablty to hire someone to pack my gear or use there gear, to hunt an area i would not normaly be able to access on my own, is great oppertunity.
I just wish i could afford a drop camp or a fully guided hunt in a wilderness area :drool:
Post by: oneezreiter on June 29, 2009, 06:08:59 PM
I see your point but I do not have the space for livestock and can not afford to take the time off of work to spend a week scouting an area, I get a few weekends before the season starts at best. Why should I not be allowed to share the experience of a wilderness hunt? by the time you count in the equipment, livestock, scouting time, milage, and what not it seems to me that a drop camp is a pretty economical way to go. It is just as much my land as yours, if I do the scouting and have the equipment and bring my father, brother, three cousins, a my uncle, all of which are out of state and I am the only one who did any scouting is that ruining your experience? I wouldn't mind one of those PM with west side drop info too.
Rick
Post by: huntnfmly on June 29, 2009, 06:22:44 PM
Are you serious? I am taking my girls on a guided hunt again this year.Should i not be in YOUR woods just because i worked my butt off all yr so we can do that?I understand what your saying there is a lot of people out in the woods but everyone has the right
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 06:57:58 PM
for one thing big difference between national forest and wilderness, you should know that and maybe you missed what i said? im completly talking about wilderness here, and others dont skim through a reply if your gonna post read what the guy wrote
oneezreiter tell me are you maing a profit if you take your faimly hunting? big diff between taking your family and taking several familys who you dont know for a profit. when you are able to make a profit outa it, things dont go right
Ray have you seen what live stock does to a trial? an over used trail will get torn up in no time, which is what happens when people can put drop camps in. also they can bring in evasive speices, and other lil things but the trail damage is the main thing. so they might not be so much damage the woods, but they do wreck the trails on which you hike on.
few guys have said i dont have time to scout, you think they really did alota scouting? they just put the camps in every basin, taking up all the land. i gaurentee they did not put in tons of time to find a place where the animals will be. if you fell the need to scout around i know any guy can take one weekend to find a spot he likes.
let me add this, i believe our wilderness areas here on the west side are to small to bring in business like that. maybe have a few avialable for guys that draw speicle permits, but in some areas they take up alot ground.
dont want to bring up the main wilderness i hunt, might be a sponser here who goes there, but i know some guys on here do know where i go and can tell you the same thing. when i pack in on foot there to find some guide set up a drop camp a week before the season started in a area i hunt it sucks. they claim there areas, and more come every year
im not completly oppressed to drop camps as ive said, but right now its outa hand. when you make somthing thats hard easy, more people will come. if you cant take the time to hike in, or bring horses than dont complain. somthings are worth keeping. this changes it to guys who dont want to do the work
go ahead blast away ;)
Post by: oneezreiter on June 29, 2009, 07:19:58 PM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on June 29, 2009, 07:39:02 PM
Post by: mcginnis8127 on June 29, 2009, 07:44:29 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 07:49:02 PM
I honestly can't speak about your particular situation but I have a feeling you are missing some info. If it is as bad as you say, I would ask the local ranger district what is going on. Half a dozen other people have complained about me leaving garbage and damaging the forest over the years. The USFS officers came and investigated and in every case it was just joe slob leaving garbage at his campsite and cutting trees they shouldn't have been cutting. The end result was that I was cleared and the people that had complained were informed about what was really happening. In one case I actually cleaned up a remote rogue campsite just so the forest wouldn't have to do it, and to show the locals that they were misjudging my outfit.
In the forest where I am permitted (and most other forests), each and every commercial campsite must be approved by USFS personnel. Last fall I had the district ranger himself inspect my new base camp site for approval before I could set the camp for the first time.
Part of my area is a small designated wilderness and they only allow me to have 4 campsites within that wilderness area. All of my campsites must be low impact to the public, out of sight as much as possible, only a certain number of use days are allowed, and I must report every single day that each person is on USFS land.
In wilderness areas and most USFS areas only so many horses can be used by an outfitter, camps must be at least 100 feet from any surface water, camps can not be right along a major trail, and tree roots or other vegetation cannot be damaged or removed without USFS approval. Latrine facility requirements do vary from one forest to another. Horses must be fed certified weed-free hay for at least 48 hours in advance of use on USFS lands, and during use on USFS lands. Each year I show my proof of purchase for my certified weed-free hay.
If I failed to conform with all requirements I would lose my license to operate.
Horses are very expensive to keep. I had 7 of my own but was forced to make hard decisions this year and had to sell mine. Yes, I am an outfitter with no horses, however, I am lucky, I have been leasing extra horses for 12 years from another guy who does commercial horseback rides all summer. So I decided we would just lease all our horses from him and save money. So my point is that the average guy just can't justify keeping horses all year for a week of hunting once a year. The average guy is far ahead to go with an outfitter on a guided or drop camp hunt.
Same is true on the water, the average guy can not afford to maintain a quality fishing boat and keep up with the fish movements, you are farther ahead to go with a fishing guide or charter boat a couple times a year and catch fish when you go.
I really would suggest you ask the FS district about what you claim is occuring, it just doesn't sound like something they would approve.
Good Luck
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 07:50:11 PM
Post by: Ray on June 29, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Quote
Ray have you seen what live stock does to a trial? an over used trail will get torn up in no time, which is what happens when people can put drop camps in. also they can bring in evasive speices, and other lil things but the trail damage is the main thing. so they might not be so much damage the woods, but they do wreck the trails on which you hike on.
I have seen what hoofed animals can do to a trail. Frankly I don't have a problem with it. If it wasn't for hoofed animals there would be no trails in many places. I don't see them as a scourge. I see them as a scapegoat for people who feel the need to make some ranting complaints most of the time. :twocents: It's the factual complaints with evidence against specific parties which is more interesting and actionable.
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 08:00:02 PM
why dont you read what im saying? NWWABOWHNTR, i've said its getting to be to many. sure have a few, but dont ruin it for the guys that work to hunt that area. you drew a permit, cool but when everyone can be dropped in wether by horses or hell even a heli its gonna overcrowd and area its that simple. if you and others on the site cant see that, im sorry.
i wish they didnt have it at all, however thats me. but having a select few drop camps and makeing it so theres a limited space between each one, while also having areas in each wilderness they cant go would be better. i guess to sum it all up, is they need to be better managed. im not gonna kick a dead horse, feel free to actually read all of each my posts if your trying to understand my opinion
ADD: bette add if you read my first post i jumped on it, didnt know i'd get into a big discussion bout it
littlebuf go shoot another 270lbs blackie :chuckle:
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 08:04:40 PM
Post by: Ray on June 29, 2009, 08:07:26 PM
just what we need is more bureaucracy and regulation in hunting :bdid:
I agree with that in general. Each specific case may be different. If the law enforcement has the tools to enforce the existing laws then that's exactly what they should do.
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 08:14:09 PM
I am trying to offer you a solution.
I am certain that if you go to the ranger district office and tell them you want to file a complaint, they will at least investigate. If it is truly an outfitter breaking the rules he will be brought into compliance. If it is some other hunters that are breaking the rules and they are regulars they will eventually be caught too.
The USFS does not take breaking rules in the wilderness lightly, this is what they are charged with administering, it is one of their reasons for existence.
Post by: stumprat on June 29, 2009, 08:17:03 PM
Post by: rasbo on June 29, 2009, 08:18:29 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on June 29, 2009, 08:54:00 PM
rasbo: i dont think you know the situation, have you bowhunted elk with several camps around 8miles or more back in?
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 09:00:33 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 09:02:41 PM
Stop and ask the ranger station what is going on. A friendly conversation will gain you a lot of insight. If it is within their acceptable level of use they are probably going to tell you to live with it. But if there is unauthorized commercial use going on, they will be glad you stopped and asked, and so will you.
It is possible that there is unauthorized use occuring. On the other hand perhaps everything is on the level, but if you ask you will know.
Good Luck
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 09:04:20 PM
which wilderness do you want to go into????
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2009, 09:23:11 PM
Good Luck
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
Post by: oneezreiter on June 29, 2009, 09:39:58 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 29, 2009, 10:07:37 PM
http://www.woga.org/
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on June 29, 2009, 10:22:06 PM
Dale (Bearpaw) I have seen first hand what kind of hoops you have to go through to get your sites established. So I commend you on a job well done for that. I am still talking it over with the wife to see if we are going to get over there to hunt the muzzleloader season with you. Correct me if I am wrong but during muzzle loader we are allowed to use our bows correct? I just dont know if buying a muzzle loader for one season is worth it.
Littlebuff, there is icicles outfitter that does drop camps. There are a couple of other ones that do some drop offs over here on the west side.
Joe
Post by: jackelope on June 29, 2009, 10:24:35 PM
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on June 29, 2009, 10:25:56 PM
Post by: littlebuf on June 29, 2009, 10:43:14 PM
Post by: 7mag. on June 30, 2009, 12:29:46 AM
Post by: hoytem on June 30, 2009, 01:24:29 AM
Post by: rasbo on June 30, 2009, 04:18:37 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on June 30, 2009, 07:09:50 AM
Post by: halflife65 on June 30, 2009, 07:30:58 AM
Post by: finnman on July 02, 2009, 09:46:00 AM