Post by: nwhunter on July 10, 2009, 04:32:25 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on July 10, 2009, 04:43:06 PM
Post by: Buckmark on July 10, 2009, 04:43:59 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 10, 2009, 05:18:29 PM
Post by: mrgoodwrench on July 10, 2009, 06:55:56 PM
Post by: BC CHASER on July 10, 2009, 06:59:15 PM
Post by: elkoholic1 on July 10, 2009, 07:28:01 PM
Post by: hoytem on July 10, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
Post by: hogsniper on July 10, 2009, 10:55:57 PM
Post by: TeacherMan on July 10, 2009, 10:59:04 PM
i'm sure you would do if you could too.
No I don't think I would, Leaving animals in a clearcut to rot is not the type of person I'm. I would only take what I needed, and I would not be shooting partially developed bull elk :tdown:
Post by: littlebuf on July 10, 2009, 11:36:47 PM
i'm sure you would do if you could too.
no your all the way wrong. and on a side note isn't native American tradition beautiful
Post by: PolarBear on July 10, 2009, 11:46:24 PM
They all need to be turned into windchimes! >:(:yeah:
Post by: coldsteel3d on July 11, 2009, 12:24:41 AM
Post by: hoytem on July 11, 2009, 02:33:51 AM
sorry i must have missed the part of the post where the bull was rotting in a clearcut and that the guy shot a herd of fifty animals for no reason what so ever.i'm sure you would do if you could too.
No I don't think I would, Leaving animals in a clearcut to rot is not the type of person I'm. I would only take what I needed, and I would not be shooting partially developed bull elk :tdown:
Post by: stumprat on July 11, 2009, 05:35:31 AM
Post by: matlockmike on July 11, 2009, 06:03:19 AM
Nieghbor is an Indian with hunting rights. To see him running after the elk around my house from Aug to March is just about enough too make me take the law in my own hands. >:( >:( >:( My wife is the voice of reason though. She keeps me out of jail. ;)
Post by: royalbull on July 11, 2009, 07:24:49 AM
Post by: NoBark on July 11, 2009, 07:35:00 AM
Hey guys, it boils down to a very common problem within our society today.
Doesn't fall on any one race either.
It's the ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY that has swept our land. Be it a house, a car,
a job, a TV or in this case, a few animals.......Uncle Sam owes them. :twocents:
Post by: mrgoodwrench on July 11, 2009, 07:47:50 AM
The two guys who witnessed this incident and reported it to the company I work for were out predator hunting when the herd of elk they were watching started dropping.....I had to praise them for not firing a few flat shooting varmint rounds at some heads....don't think I'd have that much restraint.!
Post by: nwhunter on July 11, 2009, 08:09:58 AM
Post by: littlebuf on July 11, 2009, 09:37:00 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on July 11, 2009, 09:38:48 AM
Post by: alanger on July 11, 2009, 10:40:28 AM
Just another good reason we ALL need to keep camera's handy. A few pictures in the press is better than just discussing it with real sportsmen. Let's sic the anti's on the tribes so they will leave us alone!
:yeah:
When i go hunting i always carry some sort of camera to take pictures even if it would be my phone, did last year and it payed off. caught a poacher.
Post by: CP on July 11, 2009, 11:08:28 AM
Post by: logger on July 11, 2009, 12:31:48 PM
Post by: Timmybob on July 12, 2009, 12:17:17 AM
Post by: elkkiller on July 12, 2009, 09:14:22 AM
If we could only embaress the tribe enough with bad publicity........
Hey guys, it boils down to a very common problem within our society today.
Doesn't fall on any one race either.
It's the ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY that has swept our land. Be it a house, a car,
a job, a TV or in this case, a few animals.......Uncle Sam owes them. :twocents:
THe tribe would not be embaressed, they would just take another swig of whiskey and keep right on shooting and wasting animals. I have seen this waste time and again. They have ruined a lot of good hunting areas to the point of the areas are totally ruined and the animals are totally wiped out . I wish we could keep stop all this wasting, but to many butt- kisser's in office that won't do anything about.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Post by: coachcw on July 12, 2009, 02:20:24 PM
Post by: elkkiller on July 12, 2009, 02:29:37 PM
This is a bunch of sh** I have heard of all your stories and the issues with the Indians, I know that there are issues but there are just as big of issues with non Indians and all you want to cry about are the Tribal issues. The biggest problem on the rez are non Tribal hunters. Like I said before lets go 50/50 there would be more elk, did you see how long the state got to fish for springer's this year? They caught their share in the mater of weeks and only one or two gill net seasons below the dam, Ya that might be a little info for some of you the state has a gill net season below the dam. You all better get your rascal remarks and cheap shots in before the thread gets shut down. You all seem to get a green light on whatever you want to say until some one wants to point out what a bunch of sh** it is. I am on my way to bald mountain today bring your cameras and a friend to help load em up You people piss me off. I wrote this in a hurry and didn't have time the check it please excuse the mistakes.
The truth does hurt , so man up and deal with it! As for as it goes for non-Indian issues at least we can do something about that. But when a Indian goes and blows everthing away and gets caught Illegally POACHING OFF THE REZ. NOTHING IS DONE. PERIOD! If a Indian wants to hunt like their ancestor's than hunt the way they did. NO MODERN WEAPONS! When was the last time the tribal hunters did anything to improve hunting long term and maintain that? I thought so.
Post by: elkkiller on July 12, 2009, 02:32:15 PM
I'm ok with If an indain wants to tribal hunt , if thats what it really is, If an Indian is performing a tribale hunt in the manner his ancestors did I'm ok with it. But to drive his new ford truck into the center of a feed lot and take out his 300mag and pop a big bull Is *censored*. Thats Intittlement. When Do we get together as sportsman both state and tribal anf fix this problem. As far as any one else that poaches we should work as a comunity and take care of those *censored*s too. I found a bull three years ago that had his hind quarters cut off with his horn too.I was so pissed off that I could hardly hunt . when i found out that it was a Yakima indain that did it I was really dissipointed in our system . We as sportsman have worked way to hard and spent way too much money preserving the herds to have anyone waste animals. wrong is wrong no matter ho you are. I'm really sorry and embarassed about the way our ansestors treated the Indains but it's about time to get over it the world isn't fair nor has it even beeen , lets start living as a whole group do what's really important and protect our beautifull wildlife . thanks for letting me vent Coach:yeah:
Post by: Huntbear on July 12, 2009, 04:28:25 PM
I'm ok with If an indain wants to tribal hunt , if thats what it really is, If an Indian is performing a tribale hunt in the manner his ancestors did I'm ok with it. But to drive his new ford truck into the center of a feed lot and take out his 300mag and pop a big bull Is *censored*. Thats Intittlement. When Do we get together as sportsman both state and tribal anf fix this problem. As far as any one else that poaches we should work as a comunity and take care of those *censored*s too. I found a bull three years ago that had his hind quarters cut off with his horn too.I was so pissed off that I could hardly hunt . when i found out that it was a Yakima indain that did it I was really dissipointed in our system . We as sportsman have worked way to hard and spent way too much money preserving the herds to have anyone waste animals. wrong is wrong no matter ho you are. I'm really sorry and embarassed about the way our ansestors treated the Indains but it's about time to get over it the world isn't fair nor has it even beeen , lets start living as a whole group do what's really important and protect our beautifull wildlife . thanks for letting me vent Coach:yeah:
Could not agree more with the above. If the indians in this state want entitled hunting/fishing rights, like they have, they should have to use the weapons and methods of their ancestors. Hand made bows, arrows and spears, horses, hand dugout canoes, and hand made fish nets from fibrous plants.
If they want to use 4x4 trucks, high powered rifles, and big boats with commercial nets, they should have to follow the same laws and penalties we have to abide by.
Take a look at the Apache nation, they have some of the most sought after elk hunting in the country, simply because they smartened up and realized what a resource they have, not simply to slaughter the herds and waste animals that are a natural resource.
Even the Native Americans in Oregon have started to figure it out, why are the ones in Washington State so slow.
Will get off my soapbox now.
Post by: huntnphool on July 12, 2009, 06:48:36 PM
Quote
I had to praise them for not firing a few flat shooting varmint rounds at some heads
Unfortunately it is getting people so riled up something like this is bound to happen, I seriously doubt anything will be done until something like this does happen though.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 13, 2009, 10:04:12 AM
I was so pissed off that I could hardly hunt . when i found out that it was a Yakima indain that did it I was really dissipointed in our system . We as sportsman have worked way to hard and spent way too much money preserving the herds to have anyone waste animals. wrong is wrong no matter ho you are. I'm really sorry and embarassed about the way our ansestors treated the Indains but it's about time to get over it the world isn't fair nor has it even beeen , lets start living as a whole group do what's really important and protect our beautifull wildlife . thanks for letting me vent Coach:yeah:
I made it off the mountain and didn't even find a shed all you early shed hunters either found them all or pushed the elk to near death into heir ground. Elkkiller I like what you wrote I would like to know how you know that a Yakama Indian killed the elk you found? If I found something like that I would assume it was a non tribal kill why would a Tribal member be in such a hurry that he would only take the hind quarters that sounds like some one that would get into trouble and needed to be on the move (Non Tribal) I know most of the problem Tribal members and they wouldn't leave half an elk they are piece of chit's but I know they have plans for the animal. To finish this up elkkiller take your own advice.
(IT'S ABOUT TIME TO GET OVER IT THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR NOR HAS IT EVEN BEEN.)
Post by: teal101 on July 13, 2009, 10:14:23 AM
This is a bunch of sh** I have heard of all your stories and the issues with the Indians, I know that there are issues but there are just as big of issues with non Indians and all you want to cry about are the Tribal issues. The biggest problem on the rez are non Tribal hunters. Like I said before lets go 50/50 there would be more elk, did you see how long the state got to fish for springer's this year? They caught their share in the mater of weeks and only one or two gill net seasons below the dam, Ya that might be a little info for some of you the state has a gill net season below the dam. You all better get your rascal remarks and cheap shots in before the thread gets shut down. You all seem to get a green light on whatever you want to say until some one wants to point out what a bunch of sh** it is. I am on my way to bald mountain today bring your cameras and a friend to help load em up You people piss me off. I wrote this in a hurry and didn't have time the check it please excuse the mistakes.
Tell ya what. You ride your horse into the mountains and kill an elk with an old style longbow, hatchet, rocks, spear whatever, just nay method of the old ways, skin it with a handmade knife of stone, quarter and pack it out using handmade animal skin bags all while dressed in only natural handmade clothing like your ancestors and then you can have your "rights" to the animals.
Its pathetic you think your entitled to these animals. Hunt them like your ancestors did, if you haven't lost "the spirit" that your ancestors once had. Indians no days make me sick. And to think you people think your doing nothing wrong. Sick, just plain sick.
>:( >:( >:( >:( :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: Ihookum on July 13, 2009, 11:27:14 AM
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/519759/gonew/1/Elk_Hunting_What_is_Too_Much_B#UNREAD
Post by: hogsniper on July 13, 2009, 11:30:49 AM
Post by: alanger on July 13, 2009, 11:32:23 AM
Post by: mjtbackcountry on July 13, 2009, 11:34:05 AM
Post by: Mike_D on July 13, 2009, 11:46:29 AM
I'm ok with If an indain wants to tribal hunt , if thats what it really is, If an Indian is performing a tribale hunt in the manner his ancestors did I'm ok with it. But to drive his new ford truck into the center of a feed lot and take out his 300mag and pop a big bull Is *censored*. Thats Intittlement. When Do we get together as sportsman both state and tribal anf fix this problem. As far as any one else that poaches we should work as a comunity and take care of those *censored*s too. I found a bull three years ago that had his hind quarters cut off with his horn too.I was so pissed off that I could hardly hunt . when i found out that it was a Yakima indain that did it I was really dissipointed in our system . We as sportsman have worked way to hard and spent way too much money preserving the herds to have anyone waste animals. wrong is wrong no matter ho you are. I'm really sorry and embarassed about the way our ansestors treated the Indains but it's about time to get over it the world isn't fair nor has it even beeen , lets start living as a whole group do what's really important and protect our beautifull wildlife . thanks for letting me vent Coach:yeah:
This definitely makes for a sorry state of affairs...
I'm of the firm belief, that all hunting should have "some limits", and no longer would there be exemptions for Tribes, minorities, etc.
Everyone needs to give and take a little bit here and this would include the tribes. Loosening their restrictions to the white man on the rez, while at the same time, following the restrictions that are placed on everyone outside the rez. This would "help" to increase our fish and game....
But on the flip side, we really need to wipe out our poachers as well... That group from the Blues are lucky they haven't been shot.
I know, I know... I'm just a minority angry white male, and probably a racist ta boot.... :camp:
Post by: coachcw on July 13, 2009, 12:33:32 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 13, 2009, 12:51:49 PM
Your last responses were very good and I didn't read anything out of line. coachcw, If the game dep could prove that the Indian had wasted the animal they would have sited him for it. Not just accusing him for it. And yes we can collect shed.
Post by: coachcw on July 13, 2009, 01:04:12 PM
Post by: huntnphool on July 13, 2009, 03:59:43 PM
Quote
Havn't Posted on pisc for quite while so hope I get this right.
This morning while out in my back yard I noticed by neighbor had not one but two Bull elk heads in his back yard.
Very fresh and still in velvet.
I havn't seen him yet to talk with him So I don't know the story behind them yet, But I was a liitle sad to see they were taken so early in the year before their antlers were even developed all the way.
He is a native american and he told me he can hunt year round. He loves to hunt and has many stories to tell
Seems to be a great neighbor and would probably help me with anything I need help with.
I know he got a nice bull last fall and now two more?
Anyway my concern is If the tribes (and I am not sure wich tribe he is from He grew up in the forks area.) Allow year round hunting does anyone know if they put a limit on the number of animals they can harvest?
My guess is they do, but still it seems to me if all of the hunters take that many animals in such short a time How long will they Last.
Its been a while since Iv'e been elk hunting so I guess I'll have to talk him into taking me for a trip.
Anyway here is a photo I took this morning If I can just remember how to upload it.
Ramprat
Post by: whacker1 on July 13, 2009, 04:38:02 PM
This subject is aggravating, but there is litte we can do about it unless the tribes themselves are willing to address the issue :bash:
Post by: Up a Creek on July 13, 2009, 05:06:29 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 13, 2009, 05:14:01 PM
Post by: Sporting_Man on July 13, 2009, 11:54:21 PM
Entitlement to hunt and fish at any time came with a different purpose... Now it seems to be just about hurting each others feelings and interest (abusing our shared resources).
State has mechanisms to sanction poachers and system works - not to say it is perfect, but there are ways... how about tribes?
Elk and Salmon should not be victims of anybody's revenge for historical mistakes.
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 06:33:28 AM
Post by: buckhorn2 on July 14, 2009, 08:01:47 AM
Post by: wildbill100 on July 14, 2009, 11:34:30 AM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 14, 2009, 11:48:05 AM
I have read a lot of the posts and can see the differece of opinions on tribal rights and what are state does but have not seen anthing about enforcement or penalties. I have seen tribal cops but what happens if someone from the rez shoots several elk like in the posts and is turned in do they lose tribal rights and hunting priveleges like the state does to non indians who are caught in the same situations. We can read in our hunting regulations the amount for fines for different infractions and the conequences that could be applied. I just have never read what the penalties would be for for indians and just wondered if there are any.
Yes there are penalties I have known of a few Yakama Tribal Members that lost their rights, I also talked to the state wardens last year and they said that they sited some Yakama's for not staying on the green dot roads. Now for other tribes I don't know what to tell you, all tribes have different regs some tribes are true treaty tribes and some are not. Yakama's are a true treaty tribe.
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 11:56:31 AM
Post by: KillBilly on July 14, 2009, 12:06:29 PM
You have to remember that OUR ANCESTORS are the ones that wrote the treaty that gives the Native Americans the rights that they enjoy today.
Rant at your ancestors if you are unhappy. Some of your ancestors still live and they are not required to hunt with the weapons of their day. Everybody advances over time...their was no continue to live in the past clause in any of the treaties.
The states and the tribes are not at fault here. If you want the situation changed, you need to gather strength and petition the federal government to re-write the treaties.
The fact is, that it is what it is whether you like it or not. All the ranting and bashing will not change a thing. Until we unite and are able to convince our government that it is necessary to change any treaty language it is useless to whine.
My :twocents:
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 14, 2009, 12:08:45 PM
Who is Odie? And just to let you know the only way for a Yakama to shoot a sheep is to draw a tag and Swakane is not a unit that is open even if he did draw a tag. The tag is for one sheep and it is only in the Yakima and clockum are a total of about four of five sheep for the tribe. (No disrespect to you Bone) but I can hear it already its still not fair.
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 12:35:30 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 12:38:47 PM
Quote
last winter me an some guys from the rez were hunting up entiat for winter meat and we started gettin some heat from some gamies so we told them off or we'll take care of some big horn sheep on that highway 97 you should have seen their faces, priceless
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 12:40:56 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 14, 2009, 12:43:07 PM
Here we are again, just like last year.... venting all the same arguments over and over again and not solving anything.
You have to remember that OUR ANCESTORS are the ones that wrote the treaty that gives the Native Americans the rights that they enjoy today.
Rant at your ancestors if you are unhappy. Some of your ancestors still live and they are not required to hunt with the weapons of their day. Everybody advances over time...their was no continue to live in the past clause in any of the treaties.
The states and the tribes are not at fault here. If you want the situation changed, you need to gather strength and petition the federal government to re-write the treaties.
The fact is, that it is what it is whether you like it or not. All the ranting and bashing will not change a thing. Until we unite and are able to convince our government that it is necessary to change any treaty language it is useless to whine.
My :twocents:
Ding!
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 12:43:36 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 12:46:05 PM
Quote
The fact is, that it is what it is whether you like it or not. All the ranting and bashing will not change a thing. Until we unite and are able to convince our government that it is necessary to change any treaty language it is useless to whine.Kind of whats happening Killbilly. You have to open a dialogue and talk about things before you can unite. A lot of positive ground has been made since last year. The only whine I see has been you claiming its the same as last year. No disrespect intended.
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 14, 2009, 12:50:22 PM
Any on the Federal level that you could make one aware of?
A lot of positive ground has been made since last year.
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 12:51:07 PM
Post by: Mike_D on July 14, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Post by: alanger on July 14, 2009, 12:53:42 PM
I think KillBilly has a point with the treaties. So why can we re-build or improve the treaties with new treaties or amendments??? :dunno:
+3
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 14, 2009, 01:26:05 PM
No gov't official in DC is every going to stick their political head out on a chopping block to call for some form of a reform to these and give our little ole State the avenue to re-negotiate. It will be tied up in litigation so long that 15 generations down the road it's still being bantered around in the legal system.
The unfortunate part lies somewhere after the original post in this thread where this, and many other native bashing harvest threads of last year, went sideways. He had a permit, he popped a bull for a ceremony. Well within his limits to do so. Yet, some of you seem to think it's not right. *censored*! It is, period. Deal with it.
Like Killbilly said, thank our father's father's mother's sister's brother's language and Steven's swipe of the pen.
Quite whining about.
Quite starting up a post only to increase the drama level around here.
But for the few who seemed to get ther panties all wadded up over it, the drama is entertaining. :chuckle:
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 01:29:22 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 01:30:05 PM
Post by: backwoods_boy on July 14, 2009, 01:31:46 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 01:39:36 PM
>:( :bash: :'( :dunno: >:( :bash: :dunno: :'( :( :o
bwb what is all this head bashing and flaming anger about
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 01:44:57 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 01:48:00 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 01:54:12 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 01:58:52 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 02:02:23 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 14, 2009, 02:06:21 PM
Yep! all you guys are doing is making your self mad! :) All this negativity isn't helping your cause by bashing Indians....
+1
Post by: buckhorn2 on July 14, 2009, 03:35:44 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on July 14, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 04:00:49 PM
Yeah I'm sure I will be on here a little more.. Because a lot of B.S is being said on here and it's not even true.. People juss can get on here and say anything and it's not even true.. Gets annoying.
Post by: huntnphool on July 14, 2009, 04:20:22 PM
Yeah I'm sure I will be on here a little more.. Because a lot of B.S is being said on here and it's not even true..
So are you saying that the quote and picture in post # 43 is BS and not true?
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 04:24:58 PM
39 still has a lot of game Andrew. Try a little farther north in the Dworskak etc. Maybe unit 12...... You just wait though. the buffet table has a way of moving. :)
Post by: jackelope on July 14, 2009, 04:25:09 PM
how many elk did you kill last year, whitefoot?
no b.s. now...there's enough of that on here.
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 04:32:04 PM
39 still has a lot of game Andrew. Try a little farther north in the Dworskak etc. Maybe unit 12...... You just wait though. the buffet table has a way of moving. :)
yea but if you listened to most idaho hunters over on mm youd think there werent more than 100 elk and no deer left in this state I know they have had an impact which makes me wonder how good it was before the wolves, but the loss of game is a little overstated i think
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 04:32:14 PM
F*** tribal hunting and anyone who supports it. It is very cut and dry for me, noone on this earth owns the fish and game of Washington state and should not get ANY advanced treatment for any reason. We all have ancestors and are not demanding the right to practice their traditions that may have an effect on others and possibly their livelihood. How hard is it to buy an over-the-counter tag and hunt like everyone else. Isn't it enough that you get Reservations and other tribal advantages. I don't see the government setting aside millions of acres for "my people." If you believe in TRIBAL HUNTING, eat s***.
:yeah: i dont think this makes you look bad at all, i guess some people cant handle reality. the tribes are pathetic and full of hypocrites. the white man raped the land and killed all the game right? have you seen a reservation? talk about abusing land and game. indians deserve no special treatment for anything, what you think your special because you were born?
Post by: teal101 on July 14, 2009, 04:33:16 PM
So if a tribal member is going to harvest an animal, say a bull elk, for a ceremony wouldn't he/she harvest it in a ceremonial way? Say as the ancestors did? If your ceremonies are still rooted in the ways of your elders, shouldn't the harvesting of the animal be done in such a way too?
Do you personally think the use of high powered rifles and automobiles to aid in harvest is acceptable? If so why? The treaty was written for back in the day when these things weren't thought of. Aren't the tribes kind of "pushing the limit" so to say when they use todays technologies.
I personally think the tribes would not see as much bashing from all logical hunters if they harvested respectfully like their ancestors did. I have no problem with a tribesman taking a bull elk under his treaty right if hes using a traditional longbow and horse and not aiding himself with todays technologies.
To me the harvesting of an animal out of season by a tribesman with a truck and rifle is disgusting. I think it reflects poorly on the tribes.
Also do you think its right for a tribesman to harvest multiple bull elk in one year, then enter them in hunting shows and sell the antlers? Is one family going to use 2, 3, even 4 elk a year? Isn't it the way of the elders to use all of the elk possible and not waste? I see it hard to not waste when harvesting upwards of 3 of these animals in a year.
Just trying to get a perspective on YOUR stance on these issues to provide some opposition and possibly middle ground on this subject.
Thanks. :hello:
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 04:38:34 PM
Post by: JoeVon on July 14, 2009, 04:40:14 PM
My confusion isn't solely based from this thread, but from the attitude/opinions as a whole from our members.
First you guys complain because they (Tribal Members) go off "The Rez" to shoot "Our" elk. Now I don't agree with this and I'm sure many of you don't either. I think this is wrong.
The part that confuses me, is when people tell them (Tribal Members) to not shoot "Their" elk, the elk that they "manage" on their own lands, because its not during "Our" season. Why do any non-tribal members care? Its land that we will most likely never be able to hunt, fish, or recreate on, we don't have any say of what go's on there, so why do we care?
I'm sure I'll get some flack for this post, but frankly, just don't understand.
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 04:42:24 PM
Post by: JoeVon on July 14, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
:yeah: i dont think this makes you look bad at all, i guess some people cant handle reality. the tribes are pathetic and full of hypocrites. the white man raped the land and killed all the game right? have you seen a reservation? talk about abusing land and game. indians deserve no special treatment for anything, what you think your special because you were born?
Have you seen a reservation? Its been my experience that most are loaded with game...more so than public land for sure.
And what does a fence have to do with my question?
Post by: colockumelk on July 14, 2009, 04:45:49 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 04:46:29 PM
Post by: JoeVon on July 14, 2009, 04:49:37 PM
Joe Von because when you have units like the Colockum that are having a tough time with their bull to cow ratio and you have the Yakamas come in and kill about 5 times more bulls than we are allowed to take then there isn't any managment and the bull to cow poplulation continues to spiral downward quickly just like in the Colockum.
Colockum, if you read my post, you'll see that I agree with what you are saying as being wrong. My question/confusion came from Non-Tribal members telling Tribal Members what they could/should not be able to do on their lands.
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 04:50:48 PM
F*** tribal hunting and anyone who supports it. It is very cut and dry for me, noone on this earth owns the fish and game of Washington state and should not get ANY advanced treatment for any reason. We all have ancestors and are not demanding the right to practice their traditions that may have an effect on others and possibly their livelihood. How hard is it to buy an over-the-counter tag and hunt like everyone else. Isn't it enough that you get Reservations and other tribal advantages. I don't see the government setting aside millions of acres for "my people." If you believe in TRIBAL HUNTING, eat s***.
:yeah: i dont think this makes you look bad at all, i guess some people cant handle reality. the tribes are pathetic and full of hypocrites. the white man raped the land and killed all the game right? have you seen a reservation? talk about abusing land and game. indians deserve no special treatment for anything, what you think your special because you were born?
as i was reading this a perfect photo popped up in random photos. your opinions are very closed minded as i stated before we have our bad apples as well just because the federal government hundreds of years ago gave them the right to rape and pillage the land and kill all of the game animals they wanted doesnt mean that we should take it out on the whole tribe. Most of the tribe members are probably very responsible stewards of the land
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 04:54:08 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 04:56:27 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 04:57:48 PM
Post by: JoeVon on July 14, 2009, 04:58:27 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 05:01:11 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 05:03:45 PM
Post by: JoeVon on July 14, 2009, 05:06:40 PM
Sorry for the confusion.
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 05:08:10 PM
andrew please explain how "closed minded" i am, id really like to hear it
the fact that you could even agree with what furbearer said shows you are closed minded, its like blaming the african american community as a whole for drug wars in the inner cities, it is not the african americans it is the percentage of them who are drug addicts and dealers and there are whites and hispanics and every other race involved too. while there may be some tribal hunters who abuse their rights there are also a lot of white hunters who dont always necesarilly follow our rules the only difference is when we catch the whites we can convict them as poachers
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 05:11:36 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 05:11:54 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 05:13:42 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 14, 2009, 05:13:53 PM
how long will the animals last, whitefoot, when the hunting goes unregulated and it's a free for all.
how many elk did you kill last year, whitefoot?
no b.s. now...there's enough of that on here.
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 05:15:40 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 14, 2009, 05:28:10 PM
Why do you say that the tribal hunters are killing all the elk in the clockum? The state has a general season on spikes the bull to cow must be fine by the state, they are not were I would like to see them. I don't understand why do we as a tribe allow the state to overharvest all the spikes what do state hunters kill 90% that is bull *censored*. Allot of people on hear are hypocrites you don't like me to kill an elk and if I do you call it 30 but you don't have a problem killing one or two or three if you travel to other states hunt long seasons with an special permit or for the some people buy your bull or buck (governor's tag). If the clockum heard if in such bad shape why do 3000 people go there to slay out all the spikes every year. If you were truly for the animals you would volinter to stop hunting the clockum and find a more challenging spot not were the elk have no place to hide from all the people.
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 05:33:58 PM
Post by: teal101 on July 14, 2009, 05:35:02 PM
Clockum
Why do you say that the tribal hunters are killing all the elk in the clockum? The state has a general season on spikes the bull to cow must be fine by the state, they are not were I would like to see them. I don't understand why do we as a tribe allow the state to overharvest all the spikes what do state hunters kill 90% that is bull *censored*. Allot of people on hear are hypocrites you don't like me to kill an elk and if I do you call it 30 but you don't have a problem killing one or two or three if you travel to other states hunt long seasons with an special permit or for the some people buy your bull or buck (governor's tag). If the clockum heard if in such bad shape why do 3000 people go there to slay out all the spikes every year. If you were truly for the animals you would volinter to stop hunting the clockum and find a more challenging spot not were the elk have no place to hide from all the people.
He is with shutting down the clockum and let the population grow. Its the WDFW that is screwing that area up with their head up their ass big game management views.
Post by: teal101 on July 14, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
Whitefoot a serious question, or series of questions,
So if a tribal member is going to harvest an animal, say a bull elk, for a ceremony wouldn't he/she harvest it in a ceremonial way? Say as the ancestors did? If your ceremonies are still rooted in the ways of your elders, shouldn't the harvesting of the animal be done in such a way too?
Do you personally think the use of high powered rifles and automobiles to aid in harvest is acceptable? If so why? The treaty was written for back in the day when these things weren't thought of. Aren't the tribes kind of "pushing the limit" so to say when they use todays technologies.
I personally think the tribes would not see as much bashing from all logical hunters if they harvested respectfully like their ancestors did. I have no problem with a tribesman taking a bull elk under his treaty right if hes using a traditional longbow and horse and not aiding himself with todays technologies.
To me the harvesting of an animal out of season by a tribesman with a truck and rifle is disgusting. I think it reflects poorly on the tribes.
Also do you think its right for a tribesman to harvest multiple bull elk in one year, then enter them in hunting shows and sell the antlers? Is one family going to use 2, 3, even 4 elk a year? Isn't it the way of the elders to use all of the elk possible and not waste? I see it hard to not waste when harvesting upwards of 3 of these animals in a year.
Just trying to get a perspective on YOUR stance on these issues to provide some opposition and possibly middle ground on this subject.
Thanks. :hello:
Please answer these directly so we don't have to sift through your posts for responses. Explain your reasoning. Give use a compelling argument as to why it shouldn't change or why you believe things are fine the way they are.
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
i agree with you littlebuf
wouldn't this make you, how was it put oh ya. closed minded?
Post by: KillBilly on July 14, 2009, 06:14:02 PM
QuoteThe fact is, that it is what it is whether you like it or not. All the ranting and bashing will not change a thing. Until we unite and are able to convince our government that it is necessary to change any treaty language it is useless to whine.Kind of whats happening Killbilly. You have to open a dialogue and talk about things before you can unite. A lot of positive ground has been made since last year. The only whine I see has been you claiming its the same as last year. No disrespect intended.
Ok Bone...where is the federal government being included into this combined and agreed upon presentation. It's not combined and agreed upon and wasn't the last time it came up. You aren't anywhere near ready to go to washington with a proposal. Unless the proposal is to continue to pay it lip service... no offense
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 07:01:00 PM
Most of the harvest are for ceremony such as name givings, funerals est. It doesn't have to be a bull elk a cow spike if it's cow season.. Most of the time it is on short notice so get what you can to help. Trying to answer it the best way I can.. Actually I beter think about the first question a little more I can't explain what the brain is thinking..
The use of trucks and rifles to get elk! I don't see why not.. I understand what your saying we have modernized.. Would it make everybody happy to hunt on horses... And use bows? R u saying it's unfair to use rifles and trucks? I'm curious why it's unfair? From your point of view and why does it make you sick?
The other thing is we harvest our elk according to our season.. It's not out of season.. I understand how you feel that you can't hunt earlier in the year and later.
Ok! r u saying it would be fair if i used a bow and rode a horse?
Ok! I apoligized for the sportsman show and after listening I didn't think it was a cool idea.. like i said I won't enter the sportsman show.
I don't waste my meat at all.. All the animals i kill get used.. I've had several people wach me gut, bone, vaccum pack all my meat.. It does not go to waste...
I'm curious to ask what you would ask of me..
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 07:44:56 PM
i agree with you littlebuf
wouldn't this make you, how was it put oh ya. closed minded?
dont just quote a portion of what i said
"i agree with you littlebuf it is a problem that some take advantage of those rights and unfortunately we can do nothing about it but why take the whole groups rights away just because a few guys screw it up"
The key words there being "some take advantage of those rights" not lumping all tribal hunters into one group
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 07:58:22 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2009, 08:09:15 PM
Post by: teal101 on July 14, 2009, 08:18:47 PM
Geez teal that's more like a book... let me see if i can get all this down..
Most of the harvest are for ceremony such as name givings, funerals est. It doesn't have to be a bull elk a cow spike if it's cow season.. Most of the time it is on short notice so get what you can to help. Trying to answer it the best way I can.. Actually I beter think about the first question a little more I can't explain what the brain is thinking..
The use of trucks and rifles to get elk! I don't see why not.. I understand what your saying we have modernized.. Would it make everybody happy to hunt on horses... And use bows? R u saying it's unfair to use rifles and trucks? I'm curious why it's unfair? From your point of view and why does it make you sick?
The other thing is we harvest our elk according to our season.. It's not out of season.. I understand how you feel that you can't hunt earlier in the year and later.
Ok! r u saying it would be fair if i used a bow and rode a horse?
Ok! I apoligized for the sportsman show and after listening I didn't think it was a cool idea.. like i said I won't enter the sportsman show.
I don't waste my meat at all.. All the animals i kill get used.. I've had several people wach me gut, bone, vaccum pack all my meat.. It does not go to waste...
I'm curious to ask what you would ask of me..
Yes sorry for the length, just had a few questions burning in my mind.
Regarding the modernized usage of tools. Since the treaty is from older days, before the modernized weapons and such, shouldn't you adhere to the ways of that time? Unless the treaty is revised to accommodate such things such as trucks and high powered rifles adhering to the ways of the time the treaty was written only seem fair to me.
It makes me sick because it just looks slobbish. To see an Indian go driving down a road, hop out of his truck and shoot the first animal he sees (giving the benefit of the doubt that that's how it goes and not that tribesman target bulls which i have a slight hunch that they do over cows.) is just kinda disgusting to me. It really doesn't show any class.
And again back to your defined season. Yes it differs from our season. Does the tribe take into account when the animals breed and refrain from shooting mothers during this time? And again this goes back to the treaty. It was written back in another time. Back when horses and long bows were used I could see hunting year round. Your kill success goes down by not using modern means. This would equal out the year round hunting and harvest ratio. Do you agree?
Yes I believe if you, along with all your tribesman, were to hunt using the ways the treaty was written for, more people would be accepting of your hunting practices and season, I being one of them.
What would I ask of you? I would ask you, if you are in agreement with my thoughts and the thoughts of those on my side of the argument, to join us and get your tribesman involved. Its already known we need to be a thorn in the states ass to get any attention. If we had the backing of one or more tribes in either re writing the treaty, or adjusting how the tribes hunt under the current treaty, I think the state might take a closer look. Getting to the federal level is another hurdle but with the help of the tribes they might see it as a mutual point of concern. That's one of our major problems is its us vs. the tribes. If we mutually agree on something we have a high chance of being listened to seriously.
I look forward to your response.
Post by: mossback91 on July 14, 2009, 08:19:03 PM
Clockum
Why do you say that the tribal hunters are killing all the elk in the clockum? The state has a general season on spikes the bull to cow must be fine by the state, they are not were I would like to see them. I don't understand why do we as a tribe allow the state to overharvest all the spikes what do state hunters kill 90% that is bull *censored*. Allot of people on hear are hypocrites you don't like me to kill an elk and if I do you call it 30 but you don't have a problem killing one or two or three if you travel to other states hunt long seasons with an special permit or for the some people buy your bull or buck (governor's tag). If the clockum heard if in such bad shape why do 3000 people go there to slay out all the spikes every year. If you were truly for the animals you would volinter to stop hunting the clockum and find a more challenging spot not were the elk have no place to hide from all the people.
They kill multiple animals but each out of a totaly different states man!! this is much different than one guy killing multiple elk out of one area such as the colockum...................
Post by: teal101 on July 14, 2009, 08:19:38 PM
I guess in your way of thinking Killbilly is that we shouldn't talk about it anymore. Just come up with a presentation on our own and convince the High and mighty goverment what should be done. Feel free to do that if you have all the time on your hands. I generally think its nice to understand both sides of the coin, figure out how it applies to todays standards, get all of the hot headed anger out of it, then come up with a plan. I also think the plan would be better enacted upon if both sides agree on it. I think the days of ramming a plan down someones throat is kind of what got us in this predictament in the first place.
Yes, I'm trying to hit on that very point! :hello:
Post by: mossback91 on July 14, 2009, 08:20:33 PM
Post by: mossback91 on July 14, 2009, 08:23:14 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 08:29:36 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 08:31:36 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 08:33:56 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 14, 2009, 08:43:43 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 08:44:51 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 08:45:05 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 08:46:54 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 08:47:42 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 08:49:25 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 08:50:14 PM
Post by: stumprat on July 14, 2009, 08:50:33 PM
littlebuf you and furbearer just seem to have this mentality that all of the people of the tribes are in the wrong, to use another example its like saying that all arabs are terrorists which we all know is not the truth, but the very first words of furbearers post were "fu** all the tribal hunters" or something to that effect i was just trying to point out that rather than blaming all maybe we should try and single out the bad apples and see what we can do to solve our problems, rather than saying fu** the whole race
Unfortunately,
In the White river, the west fork, and over in Wilkeson. If there are any Muckleshoot Indians that hunt ethically they do a good job of not being seen. In August during bear season I have seen some pretty horrendous *censored* in these areas. I'm not saying you all hunt that way. But let me tell you the ones that do have no problem flaunting it.
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 08:51:08 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 08:52:52 PM
that's how you guys should hunt is on your wagon.... you and your wagon trail.... shouldnt use trucks or atv's.. stickk to your wagons.. litte punk..
are you referring to me? if so it sure is easy to be tuff on a keyboard. i never said hunt on a horse or use along bow while naked, i said have a season and stop being hypocritical; about how white man raped the land all the while your having blood baths in july
Post by: littlebuf on July 14, 2009, 08:54:45 PM
Post by: stumprat on July 14, 2009, 08:57:16 PM
so anda punk.. juss kuz you kant fish or hunt..
If it makes me a punk to say what I see then I guess I'm a punk.
Those units have been decimated by the tribes. Just a matter of time before they do the same thing in the watershed.
Post by: Whitefoot on July 14, 2009, 08:58:25 PM
Post by: Mike_D on July 14, 2009, 09:05:47 PM
I welcome ANY MAN (be he indian/white/or otherwise) to my camp, to share my fire, and my vittles until such time as they disrespect me, the forest, or the creature hunted.
Until such time, I'll see you either in camp or in the field.
:cmp1:
Post by: rasbo on July 14, 2009, 09:08:36 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 09:20:28 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 14, 2009, 09:22:14 PM
Post by: bearhunter59 on July 14, 2009, 09:22:39 PM
So, question to the tribal guys....why do you beleive you shouldn't have to have a tag and record each kill. As your aware, us non-tribal hunters have to not only buy a license and tag, but have it on us while hunting, and "immediately" tag the animal, and then report the kill to the WDFW so they can have some idea of the amount of harverst. What do you great tribal conservationist have to record??? ZIP! NADA!!! That's right....you don't buy a license or tag, or record any harvest. How can you tribes be "co-managers" of the resources when you don't document your harvest? Anyway, why shouldn't you have to buy a license and tag and report each kill? The treaties may give you the right/priveledge, but there is nothing in there that says you can't be required to buy a tag and license and report each kill.
And isn't it interesting how the tribal guys on this board have avoided answering the question of how many deer or elk they harvested last year. And I'm interested in knowing if they harvested more than one, why they feel they needed to take more than one?
Post by: ICEMAN on July 14, 2009, 09:45:25 PM
Here are the facts in my humble opinion.
Indian tribes were not the first settlers/visitors of North America.
Kennewick man has proven to scientist that the regions first known inhabitants to date were Caucasoid, most probably migrating here from asia.
Indian tribes warred and killed each other over land and resources before white settlers ever got here.
White settlers made the mistake of making treaties with tribes, instead of causing them to assimilate.
Treaties like this do not exist anywhere else in the world, but in good ol' USA. Most invading forces cause assimilation, refugees, or death.
Original framers of the treaties did not want to "give back" anything of value, the treaties were just a quick way to end the slaughter in a more politically correct way.
Framers of the treaties simply wanted the tribes to go away and make way for settlers. Treaties were written to provide the remaining tribal folk a bit of land, and the ability to hunt and fish on said land.
Recent activist judge interpretation of these treaties has given the tribes a golden egg. Framers of these treaties would never have conceived that the tribes would hunt and fish off their reservation, nor did they envision tribes profitting from anything. Framers obvisouly did not purposely intend to give the indians anything of great value.
Todays "Indians" take full advantage of the lucrative interpretation of the treaties.
Here is where we stand today; tribes now sell smokes, gasoline, illegal fireworks, provide gambling to the addicted. Tribes harvest elk where they never existed when the treaties were written, harvest oysters which were propogated my commercial oyster companies in bays that never held any. Tribes harvest salmon just for the roe and leave the carcas to waste. Tribes harvest bull elk off of their traditional hunting grounds for the sole purpose of denying the average white hunter.
Remember, these are just my opinions.
Another opinion: Many tribal members do not appear to follow any game laws, even their own. Tribes do not appear to enforce any game laws within their ranks.
This is how I see it.
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 05:50:38 AM
by the way Ice, I'd have to agree with you.
Post by: 3dsheetmetal on July 15, 2009, 06:20:25 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 15, 2009, 06:28:58 AM
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 06:45:26 AM
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 06:54:40 AM
I understand that your hunting seasons are much more liberal than what WDFW allows as over the counter and special permit tags.
I would like to see two changes made in the next few years. I would like the tribes to start issuing permits whether for hunting on the reservation or off the reservation. So, the reservation itself can keep track of what its members are doing for annual take and work with WDFW to get a better grasp on how many animals are being taken. No second tag until the first is turned in and information recorded. this would also make enforcement of the bad apple tribal members easier, based on the time frames that they might be bringing animals back to the reservation without a tag. You would still be able to take a tag for the special events, such as: funerals and such, but it would involve a tag for that occasion along with the recording of the information upon return.
Second, I would like the tribe to revisit the hunting seasons specific to summer hunting. July & August Elk and deer involve nursing does/fawns and cows/calves. If the cows and does are taken during these summer months the survival rate of the young drops dramatically. In regards to Bulls, I would like to see the Bulls get a chance to breed. I would lke to see the tribes move the start of hunting season to September.
I think this would accomplish both the biological advancement of better breeding and improved survival rate for young. It would also show the tribes publicly as a progressive and responsible group taking an active role in managing wildlife, by making some small changes to their internal management plan.
Post by: teal101 on July 15, 2009, 08:07:05 AM
that's how you guys should hunt is on your wagon.... you and your wagon trail.... shouldnt use trucks or atv's.. stickk to your wagons.. litte punk..
But that's not how it goes. We don't have year round liberal seasons. We don't have white man only hunting land.
The problem is you tribesman abuse the system laid out before you.
And with your recent few posts your ass is showing. Want people to respect the tribes. Don't talk like an ass. You're only hurting your cause.
If you're allowed to use the rights of treaties written way back when, shouldn't we be able to use the rights of our people from that time too? Namely pillaging and plundering tribes and forcing them to do things our way? No, that's just wrong in todays society. Why is it OK for you to use these treaties still?
Iceman, great post!
Whacker, that's a great idea. Force the tribes to at least document their kills so the state can "manage" the herds. You would think the tribes would be all for this, as it would help increase herd size and health. I have a feeling they'd shoot it down out of pure greed for animals :bdid:
Post by: Dipsnort on July 15, 2009, 08:33:04 AM
Treaties like this do not exist anywhere else in the world, but in good ol' USA.And Canada. They have the same issues and discussions.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 15, 2009, 08:34:59 AM
The tribe has a system in place to monitor the numbers coming off the rez.
Just a question to all of you how many animals do you think the Yakama tribes harvests off the rez each year?
Post by: CP on July 15, 2009, 08:45:05 AM
1. You’re an American citizen now, with the same rights and responsibilities as all the others, or
2. You’re a member of the Nation of (insert tribe here), good luck on your own. If you’d like to visit the USA apply for visa and make sure your passport is in order.
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 08:57:34 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 08:58:49 AM
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 08:59:57 AM
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 09:03:52 AM
Post by: oneezreiter on July 15, 2009, 09:09:26 AM
Post by: Tom Reichner on July 15, 2009, 09:15:43 AM
i'm sure you would do if you could too.No, not at all. What makes you think so? I often pass up shots at game simply because at the moment I realize I really don't want another dead animal to deal with. There's really no thrill in shooting something just to see the effects of the shot. Unless I actually want another carcass to eat I figure I might as well just enjoy observing the animal in it's habitat and let it go about it's business before quietly walking away. People that think it's exciting to shoot something just to see it fall & die are a little short sighted, and likely a little "off-balance". I certainly wouldn't want such a person as a hunting partner.
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 09:22:57 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 09:24:14 AM
Quote
i'm sure you would do if you could too.
Considering I already hunt almost exclusively with a trad bow, I am probably one up on most tribal guys anyway in that arena.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 15, 2009, 09:25:27 AM
Post by: hoytem on July 15, 2009, 09:32:47 AM
i'm sure you would do if you could too.No, not at all. What makes you think so? I often pass up shots at game simply because at the moment I realize I really don't want another dead animal to deal with. There's really no thrill in shooting something just to see the effects of the shot. Unless I actually want another carcass to eat I figure I might as well just enjoy observing the animal in it's habitat and let it go about it's business before quietly walking away. People that think it's exciting to shoot something just to see it fall & die are a little short sighted, and likely a little "off-balance". I certainly wouldn't want such a person as a hunting partner.
I think you're confused on what I was reffering to. If I could hunt year round I would if I could, that doesn't mean I would take more than I needed or shoot animals just for fun. Why wouldn't you? It would be like having the ultimate tag. As long as it's done responsibly. I know for a fact that alot of them are abusing this privledge but there are probably just as many non-tribal idiots doing the same *censored*. The only difference is the tribes get a pass(when no one should).
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 15, 2009, 09:37:02 AM
Oh
Just to let some of you know there are only 35 people that put in for the Tribes big horn sheep draw and only 10day's to draw time. I could use some help when I get drawn.
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 09:49:01 AM
Quote
The tribe has a system in place to monitor the numbers coming off the rez.
Just a question to all of you how many animals do you think the Yakama tribes harvests off the rez each year?
Yak, This is just my point. The tribe hasn't done any sort of publicity with their system of recording harvests. Nothing would make me happier than to see an article on the WDFW web-site to say something along the line of "Yakama tribe reports their tribal harvest for both on reservation and off reservation harvest. WDFW enjoys working with Yakama tribe as they are setting an example for other tribes in game management."
But the reality is that we haven't seen any such article, and have no way of knowing how many hunters you have in the tribe, let alone how many animals these hunters harvest each year. See our records are public information, because WDFW keeps the information. So if they don't publicize the information from WDFW controlled hunts and biology reports, then we can do a public records request under the freedom of informaiton act. Because many tribes are soverign nations, I don't think the public records request would do us much good.
If the Yakama tribe keeps this information, it would be nice to see them work with the WDFW and do some press releases about their working relationship with the WDFW, so that we can improve game management.
I did a little research on the Yakama hunting and fishing web-site. The information is better than what I remember from similar conversations from this winter.
What I did learn is that the tribe is prohibited from taking female deer and elk from January - 1 through August 31st. This is a step in the right direction. Special permits for ceremnoial purposes for this time are available. But the season for taking male deer and elk is year round. I would like to see the year round hunting of male deer and elk limited in the future to enhance the opportunity to breed.
Rasbo for you - it looked like the combo hunting and fishing license was around $37 after the fee. I didn't see any additional costs associated by species.
no hunting in winter feeding areas dec 15 - march 31.
I checked the "report your harvest" portion of the web-site, but it shows as under construction and gives a phone number for tribal police to report violations . I would like to see the data on animals taken throughout the year by location, by sex, and by age or antler size, and by month and weapon. Much like the way WDFW and other states keep their data.
i don't want to take away the tribes ability to hunt, but I would like the tribes (not specific to Yakama, but to all tribes) to do some additional regulating to help improve quality and size of herds. We will all be faced with herd size declining over the next several years, based on the wolf species' added pressure to the various herds. One must keep in mind that it isn't just the animal that is taken by a wolf, but the amount they run the herd during the winter months in attempt to take an animal. The additional pressure the wolf applies to animals will add to the winter kill number, because of the additional stress.
It won't be but 5 or so years, before we notice an noticeable population of wolves in the state of WA. We will definitely be asking for more help from the various tribes, so we can determine a way to deal with the wolf population. Who knows, maybe the tribes will be able to take some wolves for us in this process in their ceded areas. Maybe they will invite us to the newest of tribal barbecues known in the future as the wolfecue.
Again appreciate you responding on the site, sorry I don't have a guess to the numbers yakama harvested animals, but would be very interested if you could share the data.
Yak - how many hunters does the tribe have? I assume it is more than the 35 that applied for the big horn sheep tag you mentioned?
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 10:02:37 AM
http://www.ynwildlife.org/
Yak and Whitefoot - I hope you don't think that we are picking on you. You just happen to be the only representation we have from any tribes, so you are probably getting vented on, based on the activities of some bad apples of many tribes.
All of the information you guys give is helpful to the overall discussion (well most of it anyway :chuckle:)
Post by: oneezreiter on July 15, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 10:25:23 AM
Post by: huntnphool on July 15, 2009, 10:43:12 AM
The tribes are not going to change a single thing and the reason is THEY DON"T HAVE TO!!!!! Do you guys honestly think they will give up anything when they know there is absolutely no recourse to make them do it? Come on guys, wake the f*** up, you are all more intelligent than the posts you're putting up. :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 10:46:44 AM
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 10:49:07 AM
Quote
It will come to violence before too long. People will perform illegal acts as they get desperate and think the government isn't acting. Much like the SSS of native hunting as compared to wolves.
my thoughts exactly.
I also believe that the tribes are viewed in such a negative light that someday, the younger generations might feel the need to try to improve their image. This is one of many areas where the tribe as a whole has the opportunity to improve their image through public outreach and still maintain fairly liberal seasons.
Post by: huntnphool on July 15, 2009, 10:53:47 AM
It will come to violence before too long.
Unfortunately you are spot on.
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 10:58:40 AM
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 11:05:12 AM
My understanding is that they are dumping the house boat operation at Keller ferry in the fall. Some hearsay, but I have been hearing from a lot of different sources. I hear that it is because it is not profitable, but I also hear that the contract with park service for the operation of that marina is up in 2010. Could be a culmination of factors. Colville is also a huge geography - lots of land and the federation of tribes gets messy. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this next few years with the colvilles.
Post by: dreamingbig on July 15, 2009, 11:33:04 AM
Wacker
The tribe has a system in place to monitor the numbers coming off the rez.
Just a question to all of you how many animals do you think the Yakama tribes harvests off the rez each year?
I have no idea and that is the problem! No one else knows either. It needs to be tracked to determine how many actually are being taken by Native Americans off of the reservation. The problem is that means work that somebody in the tribe would have to do it and I have very little faith in actually being done. It also needs to be voluntary as the state can not enforce it. A bad track record thus far...
Post by: teal101 on July 15, 2009, 11:48:42 AM
It would take an act of congress to change the treaties and that will NEVER happen. This thread is going the same direction eveyr thread on the subject goes, nowhere!!!!
The tribes are not going to change a single thing and the reason is THEY DON"T HAVE TO!!!!! Do you guys honestly think they will give up anything when they know there is absolutely no recourse to make them do it? Come on guys, wake the f*** up, you are all more intelligent than the posts you're putting up. :twocents:
And that's whats screwed up. They don't have to change sh*t. Congress isn't gonna do jack. We're left here twiddling our thumbs watching these slob ass pigs destroy what they should be preserving.
The fact that they aren't changing their ways and have no interest in doing so further cements my hatred of the current "tribes". IMO they're no better than a greedy corporate CEO who abuses his power for personal gain.
Post by: 6x6in6 on July 15, 2009, 12:56:34 PM
Phool, you nailed it too!!!It would take an act of congress to change the treaties and that will NEVER happen. This thread is going the same direction eveyr thread on the subject goes, nowhere!!!!
The tribes are not going to change a single thing and the reason is THEY DON"T HAVE TO!!!!! Do you guys honestly think they will give up anything when they know there is absolutely no recourse to make them do it? Come on guys, wake the f*** up, you are all more intelligent than the posts you're putting up. :twocents:
And that's whats screwed up. They don't have to change sh*t. Congress isn't gonna do jack. We're left here twiddling our thumbs watching these slob ass pigs destroy what they should be preserving.
The fact that they aren't changing their ways and have no interest in doing so further cements my hatred of the current "tribes". IMO they're no better than a greedy corporate CEO who abuses his power for personal gain.
Join us an become Americans or get the f out and don't bitch and moan when you get shot at for coming off your land >:(
(not that I advocate violence, but its going to happen sooner or later)
Teal, they don't have to worry about preservation. Your's, mine, and every other license paying/tax paying resident takes care of the challenge the WDFW has in there futile attempt at game management. But that's a whole nuther subject that's been beat to hell now isn't it.
Why should they change their ways? They don't have to. Period!
They don't have to get out either. It's there land they live on. It's there land outside of the rez, via treaty, they have right to use. It's simple really.
And Yak and Wfoot, I completely understand why you don't want to answer the pointed questions on how many animals you whacked last year. BECAUSE YOU DON,T HAVE TOO!!! Don't blame you a sec for not saying it either. It would only add the fuel to the fire of the countless morons who fail to understand the limits of the language of the treaty and what you can and can't do.
Don't get me wrong here people. I don't like it any better than the rest of you. But realistically, there just ain't *censored* we can do about it so why the hell piss and moan about it.
Post by: KillBilly on July 15, 2009, 01:37:49 PM
I guess in your way of thinking Killbilly is that we shouldn't talk about it anymore. Just come up with a presentation on our own and convince the High and mighty goverment what should be done. Feel free to do that if you have all the time on your hands. I generally think its nice to understand both sides of the coin, figure out how it applies to todays standards, get all of the hot headed anger out of it, then come up with a plan. I also think the plan would be better enacted upon if both sides agree on it. I think the days of ramming a plan down someones throat is kind of what got us in this predictament in the first place.
Whatever Bone, I guess you are telling me that we have exactly the right people here arguing/discussing these issues just like every time before because it is the plan to take all of this to Washington and tell them we worked it out.... :dunno:
Face it, Just like Rob stated in his post, we are never going to change the treaties and the Tribes will continue to act as they deem necessary.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 15, 2009, 01:45:43 PM
Post by: rezboy on July 15, 2009, 01:50:39 PM
You didn't ask me how many I whacked last year it is a grand total of four didn't even kill a bull last year or a branch bull anyway. Now you say it is OK to kill up to three elk in one year for a non member if it is in another state. My kills could be spread over 12 Million acres. The Tribes gave up all that land so settlers could move in and they were told they could retain all of there hunting and fishing in usual and accustom places it is not a privilege that was traded it was all ours to begin with and if settlers didn't like it they could move on just like you can. Tribal kills compared to non Tribal kills Tribal kill might be at the low end of less than 5% on Yakama ceded land compared to non Tribal not a true fact number just a guess.. What is the number for our ceded area that the state kills 3000 animals?
Well put Yak. Don't think it's going to make a difference though. There will still be more complaints and "threats."
Post by: whacker1 on July 15, 2009, 02:14:26 PM
Yak - 4 elk - sounds like a spike and three cows? did i get that right? any deer?
By the way thank you for sharing.
Yes, some of the members here might kill 3 elk over three states or more, but they had to pay dearly to do so. Washington - assuming resident. $ Idaho - now over $840 for non-resident deer & elk tag. Montana - $660 or so for deer / elk combo
assuming those three states - you are looking at $1600 plus for a total of 1 week in washington, 2 weeks in Idaho, 1 month in Montana for elk. If you choose to hunt deer - the season gets a little longer. But all are a great distance from home and involve a great deal of time off and travel time to do so. 12 million acres is quite small in comparison to the billions of acres involved in hunting those three states.
I would like to know how many the entire tribe took, so we can compare with the state data as to how many cows and bulls were taken by the rest of the population. I am not even going to guess how many or what percentage until I can look at data, because I don't have any idea what the tribe or multiple of tribes can take.
Can other tribes hunt in your ceded area? Is there overlap? I don't know.
Killbilly - you might be right that this will go nowhere, but I think just through this dialogue that I have learned more in one conversation than I ever would. All politics involves awareness, compromise and some level of agreement. and it all starts with awareness, which is usually the time frame that takes the longest to accomplish anything. What happens if we do the math and find out that between a few tribes that the harvest is far greater than what each tribe realized. Maybe each tribe will begin to re-evaluate their methodology. Who knows, but it is always worth discussion. Besides we are either going to beat this subject to death or some subject along the lines of 25-06 vs 257 weatherby or .300 ultra mag vs. 30-378 weatherby etc. We are going to debate something - all debates are valid until they result in hurt feelings. Hopefully we haven't gotten to that yet. Hopefully we can keep these conversation civil.
Post by: rezboy on July 15, 2009, 02:40:40 PM
rezboy - I hadn't seen any posts from you in awhile. Welcome back.
Yak - 4 elk - sounds like a spike and three cows? did i get that right? any deer?
By the way thank you for sharing.
Yes, some of the members here might kill 3 elk over three states or more, but they had to pay dearly to do so. Washington - assuming resident. $ Idaho - now over $840 for non-resident deer & elk tag. Montana - $660 or so for deer / elk combo
assuming those three states - you are looking at $1600 plus for a total of 1 week in washington, 2 weeks in Idaho, 1 month in Montana for elk. If you choose to hunt deer - the season gets a little longer. But all are a great distance from home and involve a great deal of time off and travel time to do so. 12 million acres is quite small in comparison to the billions of acres involved in hunting those three states.
I would like to know how many the entire tribe took, so we can compare with the state data as to how many cows and bulls were taken by the rest of the population. I am not even going to guess how many or what percentage until I can look at data, because I don't have any idea what the tribe or multiple of tribes can take.
Can other tribes hunt in your ceded area? Is there overlap? I don't know.
Killbilly - you might be right that this will go nowhere, but I think just through this dialogue that I have learned more in one conversation than I ever would. All politics involves awareness, compromise and some level of agreement. and it all starts with awareness, which is usually the time frame that takes the longest to accomplish anything. What happens if we do the math and find out that between a few tribes that the harvest is far greater than what each tribe realized. Maybe each tribe will begin to re-evaluate their methodology. Who knows, but it is always worth discussion. Besides we are either going to beat this subject to death or some subject along the lines of 25-06 vs 257 weatherby or .300 ultra mag vs. 30-378 weatherby etc. We are going to debate something - all debates are valid until they result in hurt feelings. Hopefully we haven't gotten to that yet. Hopefully we can keep these conversation civil.
Thanks Whacker. Been busy man. Haven't had a lot of time to devote to the debates! :chuckle:
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 15, 2009, 03:00:46 PM
And there is a few spots in the ceded area that overlap but most of the 12million acres are all Yakama.
Post by: MountainWalk on July 15, 2009, 03:03:59 PM
Post by: KillBilly on July 15, 2009, 04:08:36 PM
Killbilly - you might be right that this will go nowhere, but I think just through this dialogue that I have learned more in one conversation than I ever would. All politics involves awareness, compromise and some level of agreement. and it all starts with awareness, which is usually the time frame that takes the longest to accomplish anything. What happens if we do the math and find out that between a few tribes that the harvest is far greater than what each tribe realized. Maybe each tribe will begin to re-evaluate their methodology. Who knows, but it is always worth discussion. Besides we are either going to beat this subject to death or some subject along the lines of 25-06 vs 257 weatherby or .300 ultra mag vs. 30-378 weatherby etc. We are going to debate something - all debates are valid until they result in hurt feelings. Hopefully we haven't gotten to that yet. Hopefully we can keep these conversation civil.
[/quote]
Whacker1, you are totally correct about there being a lot good info here. My point is that it is the same good info and ideas by the same folks as last years discussion. I never claimed that we can't learn from each other. However, I have to question what we learned when the same questions and the same responses surface again and again. I know that many tribes have Game and management plans with websites to communicate them. I question how many of us white-eyes go there and look.
The gist of my concern is that we need to do this at a much higher level and include folks that can and will affect some change. No argument that some info may go back to the tribes and vice verse and may cause some thought processes but it will never get to the level we all want it too by repeating this again and again...
I have great respect for some of our Native American brothers on this site and other places not site related.
Post by: boneaddict on July 15, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
Quote
Whatever Bone
Post by: littlebuf on July 15, 2009, 04:29:12 PM
my feelings are hurt, but im "closed minded" not morally superior like guys named andrew :dunno:
Post by: furbearer365 on July 15, 2009, 05:46:42 PM
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 05:49:31 PM
all debates are valid until they result in hurt feelings. Hopefully we haven't gotten to that yet. Hopefully we can keep these conversation civil.:'( :'( we will make you feel wanted saturday :chuckle:
my feelings are hurt, but im "closed minded" not morally superior like guys named andrew :dunno:
Post by: littlebuf on July 15, 2009, 06:01:38 PM
Post by: rasbo on July 15, 2009, 06:03:28 PM
i have to confess rasbo......i dont really have feelings so the whole thing was a lie:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: KillBilly on July 15, 2009, 07:33:53 PM
actaully Killbilly, lost in the middle after that one was me saying I stand corrected as you were right. Sorry you missed that. That was the point of my e-mail to you as well so that you didn't miss it.QuoteWhatever Bone
OOOPs searching for the e-mail, my apologies if I missed something... I'll blame it on OldTimers disease..... :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Jake T on July 15, 2009, 09:53:48 PM
where can i see a copy of this treaty?
somebody said that future generations would hopefully think they needed to change the public image. maybe, but more likely the current trend will continue because tribe mentality is to let each be his own and take care of his problems. so they don't care what the public thinks.
killbilly makes good points that this is probably the same discussion taht comes up year after year. everyone gets all riled up and mad and then bear season starts and people get distracted and forget about it.
is there anyone on teh site that has been considering a run in politics? if you let it slip taht you were a sportsman you would have a lot of support and then we might have a person in higher status that could do something.
the treaty was written a long time ago when harvesting animals wasn't as easy as it is today. i don't mean easy, but a rifle and scope is easier than a trad bow and fingers. as times evolve the rules need to evolve, that's why we have amendments. people touched on this earlier but i wanted to reiterate.
way back in teh pages someone asked about why punnish the group on the actions of the one bad apple. welcome to life. it's easier to outlaw something completely than it is to try and be in the right place at the right time to catch someone breaking the law. it's unfortuante but its true. we all remember elementry school when the bad kid took all of the chalk from the chalk board so nobody got to use chalk for the rest of the week.
please please please i beg of you tribe members. push for a cooperative managment effort. there will be more animals for everyone to hunt in the long run.
sorry for the long post, but i put in a lot of effort to read this whole post so i thought i should contribute.
Post by: littlebuf on July 15, 2009, 10:22:41 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 16, 2009, 05:46:06 AM
Quote
my feelings are hurt, but im "closed minded" not morally superior like guys named andrewThat really bothered you didn't it. :chuckle:
Post by: KillBilly on July 16, 2009, 06:24:17 AM
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/Toc.htm (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/Toc.htm)
Indian Affairs: Laws and Treaties.
Vol. II (Treaties) in part. Compiled and edited by Charles J. Kappler.
Washington : Government Printing Office, 1904.
Home | Introduction | Index | Search
Post by: KillBilly on July 16, 2009, 06:31:34 AM
For example: yakama tribe hunting management returned this:
http://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalmembers.php (http://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalmembers.php)
Post by: colockumelk on July 16, 2009, 09:42:49 AM
ARTICLE 3.
And provided, That, if necessary for the public convenience, roads may be run through the said reservation; and on the other hand, the right of way, with free access from the same to the nearest public highway, is secured to them; as also the right, in common with citizens of the United States, to travel upon all public highways.
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land
Post by: elkkiller on July 16, 2009, 03:03:07 PM
The issue is the fact that Indians get the right to kill elk that are not owned by the tribe or anyone else. They are free roaming and not property of any tribe or other group of people. I don't care if everyone on the Rez is an outstanding individual and the nicest most careing person who is a wonderful steward of the land. It all boils down to people killing elk in excess for what. This is 2009, if it is food they are after, become cattle farmers, if it is just for tradition, who iN the hell could see killing a bull elk just because your great great great grandfather did 200 years ago. BUY A TAG AND GET OFF YOUR ASS, STOP KILLING THE ELK. IF HAVING THIS OPINION MAKES ME IGNORANT, THEN SO BE IT, I AM A TRUE HUNTER AND ALWAYS WILL BE AND WILL DO WHAT I HAVE TO TO SEE THAT MY DAUGHTER AND GRANDKIDS WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO WHAT I CHERISH SO DEEPLY. I AM FOR THE ANIMALS AND ALWAY WILL BE.:yeah:
Post by: andrew_12gauge on July 16, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
all debates are valid until they result in hurt feelings. Hopefully we haven't gotten to that yet. Hopefully we can keep these conversation civil.
my feelings are hurt, but im "closed minded" not morally superior like guys named andrew :dunno:
I dont feel that im morally superior to you littlebuf im just saying that we need to think before we bring down a whole race with our comments, I agree that there are a fair number of the natives who give the whole tribe a bad name but i dont think we need to bring down the whole tribe because of it
Post by: KillBilly on July 16, 2009, 06:29:50 PM
Post by: littlebuf on July 16, 2009, 06:50:37 PM
Quotemy feelings are hurt, but im "closed minded" not morally superior like guys named andrewThat really bothered you didn't it. :chuckle:
im hurt bad bone, im hurt bad