Post by: ICEMAN on December 22, 2007, 06:43:58 AM
Elk Poacher Sentenced
An Arlington, Washington, man has been sentenced in U.S. District Court in an elk poaching case that took place in the park in 2004. Dean Harriman, 48, who pled guilty to federal charges of acquiring and transporting illegally taken wildlife, was sentenced to a year’s probation and required to pay a fine of $500 and restitution in the amount of $2,500. He’s also been banned from the park for a year and has had his Washington state hunting privileges revoked for a year. On November 6, 2004, a park volunteer discovered a fresh elk kill site on Carlton Ridge, which is located in the park’s southeast corner. Rangers verified that the kill site was well within the park and began an investigation. Three days later, they contacted six hunters camped just south of the park in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. They had with them a four-point elk that they’d killed and tagged two days before. Harriman, who was a member of the party, told the rangers that he’d shot the elk in the White Pass area on the opening day of elk season. Rangers asked for tissue samples from the tagged elk to determine whether or not it was the same elk that had been taken in the park, but Harriman refused their request. The rangers gathered DNA evidence from blood spatters in the camp where the elk was stored and blood drippings from sacks of meat hanging in the trees and from the carcass at the kill site. The evidence was sent to the Fish and Wildlife’s forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon, for analysis. The lab confirmed that the DNA from the two locations matched. The case was investigated by rangers, with significant assistance from Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife, U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and U.S. Forest Service officers. [Submitted by Uwe Nehring, Park Ranger]
When are we going to wise up? I mean the citizens of the state of Washington. Lets say I wanted to go on a payed hunt to hunt Elk on private property.... How much would I pay for this hunt? $3000 to $6000?
It is cheaper, to go poach an Elk off a national park, than it is to legally harvest an elk off a ranch. Heck, if you poach two or three and then only get caught on the third, look how cheap your hunt was. Think how much money you just saved. Heck, poach your elk in the dead of winter, when the elk are down low and you can back your truck right up to it. Why not, it aint going to cost you much even if you get caught.
Why can't we up the damn fees and penalties so freaking high for this type of crap, to make people actually not want to poach!
I say $10,000 for poaching, lose everything, gun, truck, camp, the whole enchilada. Howabout the freezer you stored the meat in. Take it all. And yank the hunting rights in the state for 10years/minimum.
I am so fed up with this crap. How much money do you think it took to prosecute this *censored*? >:( >:( >:(
Post by: Ghost Hunter on December 22, 2007, 07:32:28 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on December 22, 2007, 08:21:41 AM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 22, 2007, 09:30:28 AM
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 22, 2007, 09:32:28 AM
I don't mean just turn in the person that poached the animal. I am talking about the animals them selves. Think about it. All it takes is a DNA sample. What if F&G has a guy suspect of killing an animal but they can't prove it with out the carcass! If we would start turning in the carcasses we find, that their is no question in your mind that they have been poached, I believe we can put more of these guys away.
I believe that this guy got off pretty easy. If infact that is the only punishment that he received. I am not sure that loosing your hunting privileges for life is fair. But this guy did get off easy.
I am some most of you have made stupid mistakes (not just hunting) in your life. I don't want anyone on here to think that I am accusing anyone on here. I am just trying to make a point. You make the mistake and you suffer the consequences. That doesn't mean you are going to do it again does it? Everyone deserves a second chance! If they keep repeating he same mistake than take that privilege away for good!
Like this Glen Berry thing. I hear a lot of people talking trash about the man. Wether he did it or not, we don't really know. Yes he plead guilty, but I have heard 3 different stories alone just about that. Their are always 2 sides of the story and about 100 stories made up by impression. If he did infact poach that bull elk than shame on him. He plead guilty and he got sentenced. He is doing the time. His business has suffered for it and that wasn't the courts decision, but it happened!
I do believe that once he is done serving the sentence that he should get his hunting privileges back. It's his second chance. Just because you make a mistake doesn't mean they are going to make it again! :)
Post by: actionshooter on December 22, 2007, 11:52:43 AM
I have a guy that drove drunk and almost killed a little girl. She is now in a vegetative state. His fine was about 2k. Are we then saying that it's worse to kill an elk than almost kill a person?
Sounds like that guy got off too easy also.
Post by: Braz475 on December 22, 2007, 12:17:27 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 22, 2007, 01:07:37 PM
Post by: littletoes on December 22, 2007, 02:11:25 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 22, 2007, 02:24:13 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on December 22, 2007, 02:29:04 PM
Those 10 points could mean anywhere from 100- thousands of extra chances at a good hunt. I think the points are a good incentive for people who hunt. the cash rewards for turning in poachers is quite low on the other hand and needs to be raised.
Post by: huntnphool on December 22, 2007, 02:31:39 PM
Post by: robodad on December 22, 2007, 02:50:26 PM
I think fines should be extremely steep for this sort of activity, and no license until the fine is paid. Jail is not a deterrent anymore cause the judges figure the cells need to be saved for the real bad criminals.
Poaching is for cheaters !!
Post by: huntnphool on December 22, 2007, 03:16:11 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on December 22, 2007, 03:23:19 PM
How do we then compare my clients who rape or murder someone and get a 3k fine? I have a guy that drove drunk and almost killed a little girl. She is now in a vegetative state. His fine was about 2k. Are we then saying that it's worse to kill an elk than almost kill a person?
No sir!! I am saying most crimes need a higher punishment. Try to give some justice to the victims too. And driving drunk 'just once' ain't no mistake!! Picked up too many victims, including my own son. Nope no excuse and no compassion if you make a 'mistake'. Like shooting without knowing the target ain't no mistake!! Excuse my grammer.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 22, 2007, 03:49:21 PM
shawn
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 24, 2007, 08:51:05 AM
I think part of the problem was that too many judges were hearing the "shot for food" story and letting them off easily. It's basically unlimited doe tags there...so 'for meat' argument shouldn't hold water anyway.
Post by: Geno on December 24, 2007, 10:13:47 AM
Unfortunately if the poacher plea bargains with the prosecuter (and most do) then you get nothing. You might get awarded points if they are actually prosecuted, maybe not.The bad part for you is that they have a right to know who their accusers are and they get your name. Who knows what they will do to you in revenge for turning them in.
Post by: huntnphool on December 24, 2007, 10:23:59 AM
Not arguing with you Wacoy, but what makes a doe any less important? I would like to see the fine applied to all animals poached, big or small.
Post by: LongTatLaw on December 24, 2007, 10:46:10 AM
Poaching is wrong! I buy licenses, follow reg's, and pass on amazing trophies that aren't legal. The thing is that there has to be a range of punishments that range from maybe an accident and clear misconduct. I mean, you can be hard liners all day long but there is a difference between the guy that thought that 3rd point was long enough but it came out 3 inches short and a guy that shoots three bull elk from I-5 in July at 3am.
Judges try to make the punishment fit the level of misconduct which is affected by planning and effort to cover up.
It sounds like the 2004 case must have sounded like they made a geographical error when shooting the Elk. I also know thats the unclear issue in the Berry case.
Im no expert at either but Ill tell ya that Ive seen game wardens throw the book at poachers and judges still add more to it.
Another thing you need to consider is that monetary fines dont do any good if a guy makes 12K a year. He aint gonna be able to pay 10K for poaching. It doesnt matter what you do. So the best thing you can do is stick him in Jail for failure to pay.
Just like me, if I wreck my car into you and you get a 1.7 million dollar judgement against me...that looks great on paper... but the 50$ a month payment plan is probably all you will really get. See my point.
So monetary fines that are extreme have no real effect.
Taking hunting rights away from someone that has broken the law makes as much sense as suspending a teenager from high school to punish him for skipping school!
So, unless your comfortable with the idea of a guy spending 6 months or a year in jail for shooting a deer then most of these complaints are VALID but impractical.
As for the Big dollars for big deer in Iowa... I dont care how big the deer is, once it gets to court the state is gonna have one hell of a time showing a reasonable method of legally valuing that deer. The legislative rule may say something but the practical application may look very very different.
I have a law degree and I have represented clients in over 60 cases in open court and I believe Id like my chances beating some big deer big fine rule in court.
Understand me!
I think we should punish the hell out of poachers... but I get bored with hardliner talk that doesn't consider reality into it. Too many of these discussions become intellectual banter with no reality checks to it...
which bores me!
That said. I have problem with 6 months in Jail for the I-5 at 3am poachers!!!
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 24, 2007, 10:58:20 AM
DES MOINES – Two South Carolina men were in the Polk County jail Saturday, November 10 facing several charges stemming from alleged illegal hunting activities in Iowa following an intensive investigation by DNR conservation officers.
Mike Sillanpaa, 38, of Summerville, S.C. and David Larry Gordon, 38, of North Charleston, S.C. were arrested following the execution of search warrants on a motel room in Des Moines, a Des Moines residence and a vehicle early Saturday morning. Seized during the search warrants were two freshly killed deer, two shotguns, one high-powered rifle and two cross bows.
In addition, mounted deer have been seized in South Carolina and are being sent back to Iowa as part of the investigation.
Charges against the two men include illegal taking of game, illegal use of weapons, possession of deer without deer tags, illegal hunting of deer in state parks (Big Creek and Springbrook), hunting from a motor vehicle and wanton waste for cutting the heads off of deer and leaving the rest of the carcass.
Sillanpaa and Gordon face more than $30,000 in fines and liquidated damages if convicted and the equipment seized is valued at approximately $5,000. Both were being held in jail Saturday morning and had not yet had an initial appearance in court.
The DNR is continuing to investigate this case.
From the Iowa DNR website. You're right about the fines though- what difference does that make to someone with millions? They should post thier faces and names on the website or make it public that they were convicted/fined...and of course take away hunting privlidges.
Post by: MikeWalking on December 24, 2007, 01:15:49 PM
In the early 80's a Washington man was busted for poaching. In his cabin he had the hides and such of almost 300 animals; deer, bear, elk, eagles.
Prior to sentencing he called the Judge a *Rhymes with punt* and demanded she put him in a Prison where he could still hunt and fish. The Judge, shocked speechless for a moment asked "What did you just call me"? He apologised and said his lawyer told him to. His lawyer was equally stunned.
He got 5-7 years.
The Seattle Times ran a special 2 part story on him. A little twerp he was.
Post by: huntnphool on December 24, 2007, 01:35:48 PM
Okay so a monetary penalty is no good.
"Taking hunting rights away from someone that has broken the law makes as much sense as suspending a teenager from high school to punish him for skipping school!"
Then you say taking their hunting rights away is useless. Which I agree with by the way.
"That said. I have problem with 6 months in Jail for the I-5 at 3am poachers!!!"
Okay recap. Fines are useless!!! Revoking hunting privileges are useless!!! and you have a hard time putting them in jail for 6 months. May I ask you what your solution would be. Kind of hard to come on here, give us your educational background, vehemently disagree with the present penalties and then not suggest some way to fix the problem. Just curious as to how you would suggest handling these guys.
Post by: robodad on December 24, 2007, 04:28:59 PM
If it causes a hardship for his or her family then good it's working !!!
Post by: LongTatLaw on December 24, 2007, 11:08:08 PM
I see what ya mean huntnphool...lol
I meant to say...stick their asses in Jail...sorry, it was late when I was typing.
Monetary can be affective too but it has to make sense based on the degree of guilt and ability to pay which seems unfair that a illegal 3x3 elk costs me a 2K$ fine but Bill Gates a 2.2M$ fine. But its gotta sting. However, a 2.2M$ fine against me wouldnt sting...it would make me chuckle... cause I dont have it and probably never will.
So, stick their asses in jail. But most people arent gonna be ready to support that punishment in practice regardless of what they type on here.
sorry about the typo making things oh so unclear.
dave
Post by: huntnphool on December 24, 2007, 11:38:02 PM
So your telling me the equity in your home and holdings, along with say your credit rating, comes into account when being sentenced before a judge? Thats crazy. So the person that actually was doing it to put food on the table, also probably has a negative net worth, which is why they need to do it in the first place, doesnt have to pay the same fine or the same jail sentence as say you? Your absolutely right, that isn't fair. Why should he get off just because he has been less successful?
Post by: LongTatLaw on December 24, 2007, 11:56:58 PM
Well, Im not saying it is like that for poaching all over but if ya watch the game wardens confiscate trucks that have 1. decent value and 2. are paid off.
my very good friend is a game warden in Florida and FL is very bad for judges matching the punishment to the bank account.
So, a poacher with a 2007 f350 4x4 thats paid off better ride to the woods with his poor buddy who drives a 1984 datson with 600$ left on the payments...that way 2 deer out of season equal a 250$ fine each and 1 year loss of privileges.
As for here?? not sure. I know the game wardens wanted to hook up the guy that cut the head off of my archery elk with about 2,500$ fines (no hunting license and no tag on animal).
That was so steep I wouldnt tell em his name. lthough I never thought kicking his ass would have been to harsh... he lived in a 400 SF trailer with a wife and kids. He couldnt have afforded 100$ so a fine would have meant jail for him but he didnt poach...he was just a prick...lol
Im just saying, if ya want equality...all of us have time. And 6 months in county lock up for me should be about the same as 6 months for you... unless your a very very attractive man...lol :P
Post by: huntnphool on December 25, 2007, 12:07:46 AM
I agree 110% How about making it 8 months, Oct1-Jan31 on consecutive years. :chuckle:
Post by: ICEMAN on December 25, 2007, 11:20:40 AM
Post by: nwhunter on December 25, 2007, 08:09:58 PM
Post by: LongTatLaw on December 25, 2007, 08:54:27 PM
Id say ur right that say I see you shoot an elk today and call it in. Unless you just know I am the only guy who saw you do it...its pretty darn close to impossible to find out who turned you in. However, if it was a circumstance where a first hand witness was absolutely necessary...say I see you shoot an elk...I walk up tell you its wrong and then report you...game warden goes through your house and truck and no sign of a crime and we cant find the site where the kill happened...then without my first hand testimony in open court there really "is no crime". However, If I report you...the game warden goes to your house and finds it chopped up in your house then I never need to be anything more than a "called in tip".
Then again... some of us are more confrontational...lol
3 hunts ago I was disturbed in my stand from 3 guys on 4 wheelers way way behind gates and NO ATV signs...
when I walked out they were in the process of putting them on a trailer right beside the gate. I walked up and took pics of them and the license tags with my cell phone. When they asked me what the hell I was doing... I explained the pics would make it much easier for law enforcement to locate them to give them their fines.
They werent happy and they even decided to suggest some alternative names I might wanna consider other than dave.
I reported them but not sure whats going on with it.
But, for someone a little more subtle... its pretty darn confidential!
dave
Post by: edmondshunter on December 25, 2007, 09:44:23 PM
Quote
A point towards a special tag is better than nothing but its not enough of a incentive in my opinion. Sure it would be nice if everyone did the right thing when they witnessed something like this but lets be honest, it would take more than a extra bonus point to turn in an acquaintance. With people maxed out at 10 points does a extra point really help, not really.
Ive seen/heard of poachers in almost every gmu ive been in. Poaching happens in many forms, hunting before/after legal shooting light, hunting from a vehicle, and so on. It would take untold amounts of money to put a dent in the poaching that goes on in this state, thats a sad fact but its real.
As someone else stated, the cost of prosecuting this elk poacher must have been unreal. It would be nice if poaching wasn't a problem, but as long as hungry mouths need filling, and a-holes with guns need need to get there jollies, this will be an all to real issue for all hunters
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 25, 2007, 11:01:13 PM
Money sometimes works, but many criminals just let it go to collections. Jail sometimes works, but many just serve time and do the crime again. I can get gun rights restored on felons after a few years of law abiding behavior. So that isn't a perfect solution. A combination of each and hope the guy changes his behavior. Criminals hate work crew and community service. They would rather just sit there in jail. Giving them that would be the best deterant...
shawn
Post by: bearhunter59 on December 26, 2007, 01:20:45 PM
So let's say knowing F&G isn't going to walk back there and check it out, you being the good citizen you are, take pictures of the gutpile, surrounding area, and any footprints, and gather a piece of scrap meat for DNA analysis, and bring this all out to them, what do you think the odds are that anything comes of it???? My bet is nothing!!!
I'd like to know or see some statistics from F&G showing how many poachers were turned-in by hunters last year, and out of those, how many resulted in somebody being prosecuted...not even convicted, just brought to trial. My bet is no matter how many were turned-in by hunters, not a one resulted in anyone being prosecuted. At least that is my perception, and probably a lot of other hunters as well, so why even bother????
Leads me back to what I have been leaning towards lately...that is taking matters into our own hands. Yes, it's illegal, but so what? Who is going to turn you in??? The guys that you beat the snot out of??? First off, that's highly unlikely, and second off, so what? History has shown that you probably won't even be prosecuted, and even if you are, you'd have to get a jury to agree what you did was wrong...again highly unlikely. I say let's start playing the odds, like the poachers.
Guaranteed, word gets out that hunters are starting to take matters into their own hands, and two things will start to happen. 1-Poachers and illegal roadhunters will start thinking twice about risking a run-in with a pissed off hunter, and 2- Law enforcement will start taking our complaints seriously, and start investigating more of these incidents.
DISCLAIMER: The author in no way, advocates or endorses anyone taking the law into their own hands, or doing anything illegal.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 26, 2007, 01:31:47 PM
Or going to jail for.
Post by: bearhunter59 on December 26, 2007, 01:42:30 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 26, 2007, 01:52:54 PM
shawn
Post by: MikeWalking on December 26, 2007, 04:50:18 PM
There is at least a 4 year backlog of storm damage out there. Heck some of the roads I want to access have 8 or more slides on them. Let'em spend May-December cutting blowdowns and digging out roads while living in an unheated canvas tent.
Post by: Geno on December 26, 2007, 05:13:55 PM
Someone stated in a post above that if you turn someone in and they prosecute them that the offender can find out the name of the person who turned them in. I highly doubt this is true. As far as I know it is very confidential up to the point that your poaching bonus points do not show up online under your hunter preference points. I wouldn't want anyone to be discouraged from turning in a poacher thinking it wasn't kept confidential. If I am wrong on this correct me but in my experience there is no risk in doing whats right. nwhunter
This year I witnessed a late season permit holder harvest more than one deer. I felt I did the right thing by turning him in to a game warden, I have since changed my opinion. After several meetings/phone conversations with the officer he told me that without my written statement, and committed involvement in the prosecution that he would not be able to get the search warrant necessary to gather evidence that he felt was a definite conviction or at least a plea bargain of guilt. He assured me that I "might" get bonus points. What he failed to tell me was in the case of a plea bargain the bonus points are a no go. Only if the state gets their conviction do you get your bonus points. (If anyone can contradict this, please feel free to chime in!) I had agreed to get involved and write my statement until he mentioned that once the arrest was made and the prosecuter had put together his case the poachers lawyer would have access to all of the facts including the names of the witnesses. I discussed the situation with my family and friends, all stated that they had no interest in accompanying me on any further trips to this location if I got legally involved.(The poacher lived in the neighboring town, it would be very easy for him to locate me on any holiday weekend) I have been hunting, fishing, and camping in this particular valley in north central washington for over 20 years and to give it all up for a couple of bonus points that I may not even get was not worth it. The safety of myself, my family, and my friends is priceless and I will never compromise that....ever. Someone that is willing to poach or committ any crime for that matter cannot be trusted to "forgive" the person that turned them in, more likely to become next years hunting accident that has no witnesses. Poachers steal from all sportsman that obey the law, the law needs to protect the identity of the witnesses so more people are willing to be involved in the prosecution of these dirtbags.
Geno
Post by: nwhunter on December 26, 2007, 10:07:29 PM
Post by: Geno on December 27, 2007, 04:58:14 AM
Post by: woodswalker on October 30, 2009, 04:57:05 PM
Someone stated in a post above that if you turn someone in and they prosecute them that the offender can find out the name of the person who turned them in. I highly doubt this is true. As far as I know it is very confidential up to the point that your poaching bonus points do not show up online under your hunter preference points. I wouldn't want anyone to be discouraged from turning in a poacher thinking it wasn't kept confidential. If I am wrong on this correct me but in my experience there is no risk in doing whats right. nwhunter
Wrong...I've been ratted by WDFW...caused a LOT of problems. Was genuinely considering moving a LONG ways away....or doing something about it. :bash: >:( >:( >:(
Post by: Wenatcheejay on October 30, 2009, 10:19:00 PM
Post by: hayes202 on October 31, 2009, 06:36:13 AM