Post by: EastWaViking on November 02, 2009, 09:51:04 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
can you tell I'm not happy?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 02, 2009, 09:57:26 PM
tell us something we don't know :chuckle:
look at the cougar mess up i am sticked i have a hound tag thats no good :rolleyes: :chuckle:
Post by: River on November 02, 2009, 10:00:13 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 02, 2009, 10:04:05 PM
>:( >:( >:( :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: There's a few more of those for good measure. :P
Post by: mulehunter on November 02, 2009, 10:13:19 PM
ok, I guess I hadn't really looked too close at the regs for late season this year. I just noticed that there is a 6 day closed period between late rifle and late archery in 124!??? Do they realize those 6 days are the absolute best 6 days of the whole year... peak rut??? I tell you the department is messed up. I hope someone from it frequents this site. STOP RUINING EVERYTHING YOU MORONS!!! Chopping a week out of early archery, and 6 days out of late? NICE WORK PENCIL PUSHERS.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
can you tell I'm not happy?
Trust me... I was PISSED when I picked up Hunting season Book in May Ever since I knew it will Fk up all of us.
Now we gotta to do something to CONTROL THEM by not pay Tags next year! :chuckle:
Mulehunter ;)
Post by: EastWaViking on November 02, 2009, 10:19:55 PM
Post by: dbllunger on November 02, 2009, 10:25:42 PM
Post by: huntnphool on November 02, 2009, 10:30:01 PM
Quote
Do they realize those 6 days are the absolute best 6 days of the whole year... peak rut???
You actually think its an accident? :chuckle: You should have figured out by now that its "pay to play", it will be a permit hunt soon, new revenue for 2010. ;)
Post by: EastWaViking on November 02, 2009, 10:31:36 PM
uh...did you attend any meetings?????? oh that was answered. It was done exactly for the reason you said. TOO MANY DEER WERE BEING KILLED DURING THAT TIME for a herd that has had it's butt kicked by mother nature. It was a great decision and one of the more educated and responsible decisions a fairly stupid commission has made.
you have your opinion, I have mine. I still think it's lousy.
Post by: muleyguy on November 02, 2009, 10:57:22 PM
the department is not messed up..........it is actually one of their better decisions as one of the earlier posters said. In the late 80's and early 90's you used to be able to hunt the Okanogan units up until the first week of November; you used to be able to the Grayback unit until the 2nd week of November, all on general tags.........why not bring that back also?
Somebody has to step up and be the adult and take the candy away from the kids........
this state has very few deer herds that can support general season November hunts, and that goes for archery seasons also. So many rifle hunters have switched to archery seasons just so they can hunt in the rut it is ridiculus, many of these guys are "weekend warrior" archery guys and end up "sticking" 3 does and 2 bucks during their week of hunting and not recovering any of them. And, before the archery guys get on my case, I realize there are some very dedicated archery folks out there who are diligent about the sport. I am not talking about you; but, the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found. So, while harvest levels appear to be low, that is not really the full story.
This state has the biggest population base relative to its land mass of any of the Western states, and it is only getting worse. Deer in this state are extremely vulnerable to November hunts, and it has to be managed very closely.
Post by: fishunt247 on November 02, 2009, 11:07:21 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 03, 2009, 06:56:30 AM
"And, before the archery guys get on my case, I realize there are some very dedicated archery folks out there who are diligent about the sport. I am not talking about you; but, the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found. So, while harvest levels appear to be low, that is not really the full story.
And the funny thing is, the first couple days of every late archery season I find several dead partially eaten bucks that were wounded by rifle hunters and not recovered. Every single season...several bucks. I've never came across a dead buck with an arrow in him in Washington state. BTW I'm one of the "dedicated archery folks" and in my opinion there is a much higher percentage of rifle hunters who are weekend warriors. :twocents:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on November 03, 2009, 07:22:47 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 03, 2009, 07:42:40 AM
uh...did you attend any meetings?????? oh that was answered. It was done exactly for the reason you said. TOO MANY DEER WERE BEING KILLED DURING THAT TIME for a herd that has had it's butt kicked by mother nature. It was a great decision and one of the more educated and responsible decisions a fairly stupid commission has made.
If that was the reason, they would have ended late rifle before Nov. 19 the last few days of rifle season is peak rut also. So there goes your theory.
(peak rut in this area over the last 10 years or so had been Nov.17-23)
Post by: luvtohnt on November 03, 2009, 07:54:16 AM
If that was the reason, they would have ended late rifle before Nov. 19 the last few days of rifle season is peak rut also. So there goes your theory.They have to allow for a certain number of days per user group, so in order for them to accomplish that they may have to run into the rut a little. They can't just cut another two days off of the rifle season without rebelion from the rifle hunters. So the best they can do is move it around to try to avoid the rut. I know it makes you upset to loose some of the Best hunting time, I would be also, but in the the long run it will adversely affect the herd numbers. :twocents:
(peak rut in this area over the last 10 years or so had been Nov.17-23)
Brandon
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 03, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Quote
"And, before the archery guys get on my case, I realize there are some very dedicated archery folks out there who are diligent about the sport. I am not talking about you; but, the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found. So, while harvest levels appear to be low, that is not really the full story.
And the funny thing is, the first couple days of every late archery season I find several dead partially eaten bucks that were wounded by rifle hunters and not recovered. Every single season...several bucks. I've never came across a dead buck with an arrow in him in Washington state. BTW I'm one of the "dedicated archery folks" and in my opinion there is a much higher percentage of rifle hunters who are weekend warriors.
Logged
:yeah:
We can all point fingers, but statistically it is the modern weapon users that leave the most wounded/unrecovered game just by sheer numbers of hunters out there.
I have found game both early and late, it is a sad fact of life that a small percentage of hunters out there have no business shooting at animals with any weapon until they spend more time at the range (or set down their beer)
Post by: WVT on November 03, 2009, 08:21:59 AM
Post by: Broken Arrow on November 03, 2009, 08:23:13 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 03, 2009, 08:53:51 AM
They can't just cut another two days off of the rifle season without rebelion from the rifle hunters. So the best they can do is move it around to try to avoid the rut.
Brandon
Why not? They did it to the archers. Just start late rifle a couple days earlier.
I guess I should quite griping and go to the meetings next year. :P
Post by: Axle on November 03, 2009, 09:02:42 AM
Quote
It was done exactly for the reason you said. TOO MANY DEER WERE BEING KILLED DURING THAT TIME
OK, so we need to buy a tag to harvest a deer but the department doesn't want us to actually 'shoot' the deer. Sounds like a money scheme to me.
One year I got to help a buddy in the green river watershed on his elk hunt. Every elk shot at had to be reported. This was a rifle hunt. On the first day, there were 6 elk shot and taken and there were 6 elk shot and not recovered. We tried to find one of the wounded elk by tracking the blood trail because the hunter didn't follow up. I thought that was really bad success rates for a rifle but as stated by others - there are plenty of guys that don't belong in the woods.
I hunt both rifle and archery and have a great passion for both. The archers seems to recover more animals from my experience and it isn't only the watershed hunt I'm taking into account. I too have seen many rifle kills not recovered and only one elk not recovered from an arrow.
A sad example I witnessed one year - I was hunting the Tanum and walking up the hill. Shooting started on the other side. I started counting after hearing about 12 to 15 shots. I then counted 36 more shots. I went up over the hill to see what was going on. I thought the Chinese had invaded us. Anyway, there was this huge 4 point mulie and he was walking up the other side about 250 yards from me. I would have shot it but it would have been tagged by 6 others before I could get to it. After all the shooting, all those who shot at it went the other way after the buck crested the hill and left the area. I went to see if it had been wounded but found no blood. I was amazed that not one guy went to see if he hit it! Some of those guys had young hunters with them. Bad example!
It certainly isn't the method (rifle vs bow). It is the hunter and the hunters ethics. It just seems the archers have a bit more pasion and energy. Plus, they don't lob bullets across canyons and drive away when the animal doesn't fall over immediately.
I have a pasion for responsibility by followup regardless of method (as most of us do). Sadly, some hunters do not.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 03, 2009, 09:15:42 AM
The best option we have is to join local clubs and state organizations (Washington Bowhunters, Traditional Bowhunters of Washington etc.) and organize.
Maybe even increase dues and lease/buy property and manage it like the private timber companies (or ranches) that the wdfw seems to cater to nowadays.
Once upon a time there were some great men like Fred Bear, Glenn St.Charles, Will Compton, Roy Case, and others too numerous to list that fought for our right to hunt with a bow.
We need someone with the leadership and charisma to stand up for our sport now.......... :archer: :cmp1: :archery_smiley:
Post by: duckmen1 on November 03, 2009, 09:23:42 AM
this would make much better quality deer and i think deer numbers will go up
but the do need to fix the screw up on cougars
2 point min=better deer= more meat in the freezer
Post by: EastWaViking on November 03, 2009, 09:28:03 AM
Post by: Dipsnort on November 03, 2009, 09:32:43 AM
Are you just now figuring that out? :)QuoteIt was done exactly for the reason you said. TOO MANY DEER WERE BEING KILLED DURING THAT TIME
OK, so we need to buy a tag to harvest a deer but the department doesn't want us to actually 'shoot' the deer. Sounds like a money scheme to me.
Post by: luvtohnt on November 03, 2009, 09:44:45 AM
Again the archers took it in the shorts because the rifle hunters wanted a rut tag for rifle elk so we have to clear the woods for the rifle hunters in September. The rifle hunters have such a large voice because there are so many of them. So if the cut more days there would be enough opposition that nothing could be accomplished. Now for the moving of the dates, if you were to move it a couple days earlier again you would meet too much opposition aas that would make it open on a Wednesday rather than a Saturday. I personally don't think the day of the week should be any factor as to setting season dates but again the majority likes it that way so what can we do?They can't just cut another two days off of the rifle season without rebelion from the rifle hunters. So the best they can do is move it around to try to avoid the rut.
Brandon
Why not? They did it to the archers. Just start late rifle a couple days earlier.
I guess I should quite griping and go to the meetings next year. :P
Brandon
Post by: GEARHEAD on November 03, 2009, 11:12:56 AM
Post by: Sneaky on November 03, 2009, 11:53:29 AM
Frankly i agree with the time off, those rut hunts are way too long. the late rifle season is a joke, damn near two weeks. the late rifle should be four days just like over hear. i hunt the palouse area and those bucks are being dropped left and right,they are just to stupid and vulnerable, and the lazy weakminded trespassing trash shoot the hell out of them in the late season. want bigger bucks, want better heards, shorten the season limit the harvest of mature bucks. sorry for the rant, road hunters and trespassers got me real good this year.
Not every modern hunter who hunts the late whitetail hunt is "lazy weakminded trespassing trash". I know that those people are out there but it's not fair to punish people who get out and hunt for those who choose to act irresponsibly. Maybe the rut in the palouse happens at a different time than in 124 where i rifle hunt, but I can tell you that all but the last 3 or 4 days IF you're lucky do you see any rutting activity. November 6-15 is usually pretty much a joke, especially if there is no weather. I have seen some DANDY whitetail bucks out on public ground this year and can tell you that the only thing wrong with the herd is the out of whack buck to doe ratios. People this year have talked about how there are way fewer whitetails in the northeast and having spent archery muzzleloader and early modern seasons hunting that area this year I have seen the same numbers of deer as I always have and passed on 7 bucks so far this season. I agree with Eastwaviking, it doesn't make any sense to take away from the archers any more than they already have this year.
Post by: GEARHEAD on November 03, 2009, 12:07:31 PM
i'm sorry to muddy the water, this is an archery question and discussion.
Post by: muleyguy on November 03, 2009, 05:10:49 PM
In 2008, there were 21,000 archery Hunters in this state and 107,259 rifle hunters
statistically, this represents an increase in archery hunters of 50%; and a drop in rifle hunters of 9%.
why do you suppose this is????
modern firearms hunters have had almost all mule deer seasons shortened to a 9 day general season starting in mid-october, and even the white tail modern firearm seasons have been significantly curtailed from what they had been from 10 yrs ago.
by contrast, archery hunters, enjoy seasons that range from 18 days of general season (early and late) to 34 days of general season; with at least 8 days of general season occurring in mid November.
Archery seasons have not been reduced anywhere near modern firearm seasons have over the last 10 yrs; and your (archery) numbers are increasing DRAMATICALLY; are you guys really arguing that us big, bad modern firearm hunters are walking all over the poor archery hunters??? Give me a break......
what is happening is that as modern firearm seasons have been reduced dramatically, you are getting a "shift" in the hunter populations from rifle hunters to archery hunters, that is a fact. Notice how total hunter numbers from 1997 to 2008 are almost unchanged. The reason you are getting this is because almost all archery seasons have significant hunting opportunities during the rut. Whereas, general rifle hunts in mid-october result in lower numbers of deer being seen, fewer bucks, and very few mature bucks being seen.
Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in a very short time frame, you have had significant numbers of new archery hunters entering the sport; are they doing it because they love the sport and are dedicated to it???? or, are they doing it because the deer hunting opportunities are so poor with the low numbers of deer and dramatically shortened seasons in modern firearms??? I think reasonable people can figure that one out........
what is actually happening is that the WDFW is trying to "fix" the deer herds with the the modern firearm hunters, and that makes sense because modern firearm hunters represent the bulk of the hunters; BUT, without corresponding restrictions in archery seasons, especially the late ones, all it is doing is SHIFTING modern firearm hunters to archery. This has the perverse effect of actually increasing the stress on these animals during the rut. And, since there are fewer units open in late archery then modern firearm, these "new" archers get concentrated in the open archery units.
so, what you have is a fast increasing archery hunter population; rut hunts that have been essentially left alone in length for the most part; and, many more, less qualified, archery hunters in the field......draw your own conclusions......
this trend will continue unabated in this state until either one of two things happen:
1. Deer herds recover strongly, allowing more liberal rifle seasons; this will draw archery hunters back to rifle hunting because these new "converts" are really not archery hunters at heart.
2. The WDFW dramatically limits the late archery seasons.
Number 1 is not going to happen; Number 2 will, eventually........because in another 10 yrs you are looking at another 10,000 archery hunters entering the equation.....better enjoy it while you can........
Post by: Axle on November 03, 2009, 05:43:33 PM
Quote
modern firearms hunters have had almost all mule deer seasons shortened to a 9 day general season starting in mid-october
True, but you need to add the 11 day high buck hunt in there too. It gets a high percentage of success and bucks up high by rifle hunters. I hunt deer with a rifle too but don't agree with all the season dates. I used to hunt deer with a bow, but with all the limits, I'm better off using a rifle and hunting better season dates.
My success with a rifle has been much better than with a bow, but my heart goes out for a more challenge - archery!
Post by: EastWaViking on November 03, 2009, 05:57:11 PM
My success with a rifle has been much better than with a bow, but my heart goes out for a more challenge - archery!
I have been way more successful with a bow than with a rifle. When I rifle hunted (the first 25 years I hunted) I shot the first buck I saw, some times it was the only buck I saw all season. I also ate my tag a few years. With a bow (the last 10 years) I pass up bucks daily and have gotten a deer every year. No, not over a bait, spot and stalk and sitting fence lines of alfalfa fields. I hope I can continue the streak even with the messed up late season.
Post by: fishunt247 on November 03, 2009, 06:06:16 PM
Post by: wolfbait on November 03, 2009, 06:58:52 PM
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on November 03, 2009, 08:35:58 PM
"Do they realize those 6 days are the absolute best 6 days of the whole year... peak rut??? I tell you the department is messed up."So you think you know the Greyback unit on it's late General season, yes they used to have it run as late as the day before general rifle Elk season, but that has not existed for almost twenty years and the deer numbers in the area didn't start declining dramatically until the last 6 to 7 years due to increased cougar populations, increased hair loss disease, and a up swing in poaching, and it is a small percentage of large mature BT bucks taken during the late archery compared to the late draw season of rifle tag holders, and as of late they have even lenghtened that season as well. If they were really concerned with the well being of the deer population they should have reduced the days of the late rifle draw or elimaneted completely. It won't be long and unit 388 will become probably a complete draw unit for all weapon users, and unfortunately this my be the only saving grace for the local deer herd.
the department is not messed up..........it is actually one of their better decisions as one of the earlier posters said. In the late 80's and early 90's you used to be able to hunt the Okanogan units up until the first week of November; you used to be able to the Grayback unit until the 2nd week of November, all on general tags.........why not bring that back also?
Somebody has to step up and be the adult and take the candy away from the kids........
this state has very few deer herds that can support general season November hunts, and that goes for archery seasons also. So many rifle hunters have switched to archery seasons just so they can hunt in the rut it is ridiculus, many of these guys are "weekend warrior" archery guys and end up "sticking" 3 does and 2 bucks during their week of hunting and not recovering any of them. And, before the archery guys get on my case, I realize there are some very dedicated archery folks out there who are diligent about the sport. I am not talking about you; but, the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found. So, while harvest levels appear to be low, that is not really the full story.
This state has the biggest population base relative to its land mass of any of the Western states, and it is only getting worse. Deer in this state are extremely vulnerable to November hunts, and it has to be managed very closely.
Post by: fishunt247 on November 03, 2009, 10:58:21 PM
Post by: muleyguy on November 03, 2009, 11:22:35 PM
yes, I do know the Grayback unit, very well in fact. And, the deer numbers started to decline dramatically in the early 1990's, specifically the winter of 1992/1993. The numbers of deer, and quality of bucks has never recovered from that winter. For many years (60's/70's) Grayback had a general opener in mid october that went to approximately the end of october; BUT it also had a general late season from approximately nov 18 to 22 in those years completely open to general tag holders; eventually(late 70's, early 80's), this was scrapped due to overharvest levels. In an effort to appease hunters, the department scrapped the late hunt and went to a season that started in mid october and lasted until approximately Nov 8 to the 12 of each year (can't remember exact, but in this range); this season lasted until the early to mid 1990's and was scrapped due to the extreme winter kill in 92/93 and they then went to its current season structure of open in mid october and close end of october. Greyback also suffered a bad winter kill in the 96 winter. Can't remember the exact year, I believe late 1990's/ early 2000's, they added the late season draw only tags; and yes, I have been drawn for that and hunted it.
Greyback's heyday, in our lifetime was 1989, 1990, 1991 and 1992; season was open late into the first week of of Nov, and mature buck numbers were awesome. Heyday before that was in the 50's and 60's. What killed Grayback was a too liberal hunting season immediately preceeding a horrible winter kill; a lack of agressiveness on the dept to restrict hunting, and another bad winter in 1996; it has never recovered from that.
The bottom line is this, and this is lifted straight from the departments harvest reports for 2008, is that over almost all of the units that have a general rifle season and a general archery season during november, archery hunters take larger bucks on average then rifle hunters, and even worse, they take a large number of antlerless animals due to the regulations allowing that in certain units. Archery hunters, as a percentage of their harvest, harvest the two most vulnerable parts of the deer population (does and mature bucks) more so then rifle hunters. Rifle hunters as a percentage of their harvest, shoot smaller bucks and much fewer does then archery hunters.
So, if you have department policy that causes a shift in the hunter population from rifle hunters to archery hunters (which is exactly what is happening) without a corresponding decrease in hunter season length, and timing, you are going to see those two areas of the population suffer.
Here is the 2008 data for several units that have general season archery hunts during the rut and general season 9 day rifle hunts in mid october; on the right is the percentage of bucks harvested that are 4 and 5 points during archery seasons; on the left is the percentage of bucks harvested that are 4 and 5 pts during rifle seasons; I am excluding the permit seasons because my point is simply that department policy is causing a shift in hunter populations away from general modern firearm hunters to general archery hunters, since this is the bulk of all hunters. I certainly might agree with you that some late season permit only hunts should be curtailed.
59% Unit 209 75%
45% Unit 215 69%
43% Unit 233 63%
52% Unit 243 100%
49% Unit 250 63%
41% Unit 352 66%
43% Unit 388 47%
Right side = percentage of harvest of 4 and 5 pts killed by archers during their season
Left side = percentage of harvest of 4 and 5 pts killed by modern rifle during their season
I am also very confident that archers, on average, wound a higher percentage of animals, per hunter, then their rifle counterpoints. Although I will concede that this is hard to quantify, but, experience in the field demonstrates this.
So, department policy is shifting the population of hunters from one group (rifle hunters) who, statistically, shoot very few does, mostly 2.5 yr old three points, and wound fewer animals per hunter, into a group that statistically shoots more does, older bucks and wounds more animals per hunter.
At some point, a massive restructuring of season lengths, season timings, and tag availabiltiy is going to have to occur in the archery seasons in this state.
Post by: longstevo on November 04, 2009, 12:15:49 AM
They screwed up the late muzzleloader seasons down here in SW Washington, as well and shifting boundaries around. So now the chances of getting a quality buck during late muzzle are a lot harder than they used to be.
Example: Late muzzle used to be the Wednesday before Thanksgiving Day and would go for two weeks. Awesome time of the year, great weather and in the middle of the rut.
About four years ago they pushed it back to December 1st. Why? Because there were too many bucks getting killed, so what do they do but scale us hunters back. Never mind the exploding cougar population.
Post by: bobcat on November 04, 2009, 06:18:39 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 04, 2009, 07:36:20 AM
Personally I would like to see them do away with general seasons altogether and go to permit only for all deer and elk hunting.
Is someone sniffing glue? :yike:
Post by: Curly on November 04, 2009, 08:12:09 AM
:)
Post by: LBhunter on November 04, 2009, 08:41:30 AM
Post by: Axle on November 04, 2009, 08:57:35 AM
Quote
I am also very confident that archers, on average, wound a higher percentage of animals, per hunter, then their rifle counterpoints. Although I will concede that this is hard to quantify, but, experience in the field demonstrates this.
Muleyguy
You say this and then admit you have no proof. How can you be confident without proof? I have read articles in hunting magazines where there were studies done on wounded archery deer. All the studies done have concluded a very small number of wounded deer that went un-recovered. So why keep saying it as if it is gospel? Again, I hunt rifle and bow and see far more rifle deer un-recovered by rifle kills but that is due to no followup from the hunter.
Quote
What killed Grayback was a too liberal hunting season immediately preceding a horrible winter kill; a lack of agressiveness on the dept to restrict hunting, and another bad winter in 1996; it has never recovered from that.
You make some very good points too; however, deer herds will recover when predator numbers are low. Predators take far more than all hunters combined. I've seen this while hunting. Dead animals all over from cougars that eat only about 10 lbs of meat and then go after another one. They can't recover from this. Hunters are taking a back seat to these predators. This causes strife among the hunters and they start blaming each other and saying things against certain groups.
Archers aren't the problem, rifle hunters aren't the problem, and winter kill - as bad as it can be - isn't the problem either.
Post by: Broken Arrow on November 04, 2009, 09:40:12 AM
I dont claim to be a rocket scientist...but lets apply some simple math. Lets say for sake of argument that 3% of each party shoots animals and never recover them. That comes out to 3,217 rifle hunters and 420 bow hunters. Given these numbers I would conclude its pretty ridiculous to state with out the other side of the story that "the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found", hundreds maybe....rifle hunters may be in the thousands for sure! The other thing rifle hunters forget to notice is that in archery, unlike if you shoot with a rifle...we do what? Yes we go and search for our arrow. And what does that tell us? A. Clean miss, or B. Blood on the arrow and we hit. If its B, I can honestly say I have never came across an archery hunter who has not followed up. I hate these kind of threads....yes, were all struggling to keep our favorite seasons durring our favorite times....but at some point the mud slinging needs to be put to rest.
Post by: Dipsnort on November 04, 2009, 10:06:15 AM
Personally I would like to see them do away with general seasons altogether and go to permit only for all deer and elk hunting.Not a chance that will happen unless the herds statewide are in dire straights due to some exceptional series of events that cause game numbers to be drastically reduced.
As was alluded to earlier, clearly the core mission of the WDFW is to maximize revenue. It does that by selling licenses/tags to as many people as possible. And to do that they have to provide the illusion of maximum opportunity. I say "illusion" because, with the exception of a few really good special permits (dangling carrots) seasons are structured to protect animals when they are at their most vulnerable.
Someone mentioned seeing deer during elk season and visa versa. That is no mistake, that is the game regulations at work.
Post by: Bob33 on November 04, 2009, 10:28:26 AM
Here is an interesting study: http://tradgang.com/ashby/Arrow%20Lethality%201.htm
Post by: longstevo on November 04, 2009, 11:34:30 PM
Personally I would like to see them do away with general seasons altogether and go to permit only for all deer and elk hunting.
Never going to happen. Because then, the tag sales would go through the basement.
And the WDFW's primary job is to make money.
Post by: bobcat on November 05, 2009, 07:26:32 AM
Personally I would like to see them do away with general seasons altogether and go to permit only for all deer and elk hunting.
Never going to happen. Because then, the tag sales would go through the basement.
And the WDFW's primary job is to make money.
Why not? Most all of the other western states have gone to draw tags only for deer and elk. They still sell tags. Why would Washington be any different? The hunting would be better and that would create more demand for the tags. They could double the price and sell only half the tags and still make the same money.
Post by: EastWaViking on November 05, 2009, 07:33:51 AM
Why not? Most all of the other western states have gone to draw tags only for deer and elk. They still sell tags. Why would Washington be any different? The hunting would be better and that would create more demand for the tags. They could double the price and sell only half the tags and still make the same money.
I've got another great idea. What if the state made you buy gas by drawing only! Wouldn't that be great, we'd have more gas supply and they could quadruple the price and make lot of money!!!
Post by: hrd2fnd on November 05, 2009, 08:19:57 AM
:dunno: Maybe....just maybe....the deer, and Elk are getting smarter, or someone has notified them its that season....just a thought. Same problem for me every year. I see Elk in deer season, and deer in Elk season....go figure. :bash::yeah:
Post by: bobcat on November 05, 2009, 01:06:12 PM
I've got another great idea. What if the state made you buy gas by drawing only! Wouldn't that be great, we'd have more gas supply and they could quadruple the price and make lot of money!!!
Now that's just plain STUPID. :rolleyes:
Well all I know is most of the western states do not have unlimited numbers of over-the-counter deer and elk tags like we do. Must be something to actually MANAGING wildlife rather than just having a free for all like this state does.
Post by: EastWaViking on November 05, 2009, 01:22:15 PM
Post by: Axle on November 05, 2009, 04:00:37 PM
Quote
Not a chance that will happen unless the herds statewide are in dire straights due to some exceptional series of events that cause game numbers to be drastically reduced.
You mean like - introducing another predator like the wolf? Boy, I can't imagine our game department doing something stupid like that. Man!, that would really screw things up!
Post by: longstevo on November 05, 2009, 09:20:06 PM
Personally I would like to see them do away with general seasons altogether and go to permit only for all deer and elk hunting.
Never going to happen. Because then, the tag sales would go through the basement.
And the WDFW's primary job is to make money.
Why not? Most all of the other western states have gone to draw tags only for deer and elk. They still sell tags. Why would Washington be any different? The hunting would be better and that would create more demand for the tags. They could double the price and sell only half the tags and still make the same money.
You say most other Western States, but I can go over to Idaho and buy a non res tag straight over the counter. And they have lots of game. I do know Oregon is draw only. But I'm honestly not sure of the other states. :dunno:
It just seems to me that with an OTC tag system, more 'fair weather' hunters are tempted to buy a tag, and then end up not going for some reason. If I put myself in a 'business' frame of mind, and not 'game management' train of thought, the OTC tag system seems to me like it generates more $$$ than a draw only system.
Um...I hope that makes sense? I have a tendency to ramble.
Post by: 400out on November 06, 2009, 07:50:58 PM
"Do they realize those 6 days are the absolute best 6 days of the whole year... peak rut??? I tell you the department is messed up."Hell of way to put it there is reason gun powder was invented so when you shot something it would stop,drop,and drool! if stick flicking was the best way , a indian would be running the country!
the department is not messed up..........it is actually one of their better decisions as one of the earlier posters said. In the late 80's and early 90's you used to be able to hunt the Okanogan units up until the first week of November; you used to be able to the Grayback unit until the 2nd week of November, all on general tags.........why not bring that back also?
Somebody has to step up and be the adult and take the candy away from the kids........
this state has very few deer herds that can support general season November hunts, and that goes for archery seasons also. So many rifle hunters have switched to archery seasons just so they can hunt in the rut it is ridiculus, many of these guys are "weekend warrior" archery guys and end up "sticking" 3 does and 2 bucks during their week of hunting and not recovering any of them. And, before the archery guys get on my case, I realize there are some very dedicated archery folks out there who are diligent about the sport. I am not talking about you; but, the fact remains that hundreds if not thousands of deer are "stuck" during archery season and never found. So, while harvest levels appear to be low, that is not really the full story.
This state has the biggest population base relative to its land mass of any of the Western states, and it is only getting worse. Deer in this state are extremely vulnerable to November hunts, and it has to be managed very closely.
Post by: PolarBear on November 06, 2009, 07:58:58 PM
Post by: Galpster on November 06, 2009, 08:07:10 PM
I know that I will get flamed for this but who cares. I am in favor of shutting down hunting for a week or two during the peak of the rut to allow the deer to breed without being chased around. To make up for it, extend the season a week or two longer after the closure. I know that I am in the minority here but I don't like hunting "dumb" deer or elk. I always wait until late archery, well after the rut is over.
I agree with extending reg season for all methods of hunting and reducing the peak season a week or two. I think we would get more deer and I am in favor of making all areas 2 point to 3 point or better to get more mature bucks in the field. They did this to an area I hunted back home in Montana and it really improved the quality of deer we would see daily. Saw alot of poachers shooting little bucks though but still the bucks got to grow up a little and the numbers increased. It would take about 5 years to see the results but it would be worth it.
Post by: PolarBear on November 06, 2009, 08:10:00 PM
Post by: Axle on November 06, 2009, 09:45:28 PM
Quote
I do know Oregon is draw only. But I'm honestly not sure of the other states.
Colorado had to go to draw only after cougars ate up the deer there. It was a deer paradise for a while and the annual harvest reached a high of about 165,000 deer but after cougar numbers exploded, it went down to around 27,000 or less annual harvest (though it has slightly increased since then). That is sad and poor management. Back then it was estimated in Colorado and California that cougars were eating 350,000 deer per year. Again - poor management.
More 2 cents: Oregon put a 3 point restriction on for mule deer and it didn't work. Why? because eastern OR is very open with little brush for the deer to hide. When WA put on the 3 point restriction, there was an extreme backlash because hunters thought it would end up like OR and all the breeder bucks would get shot.
I knew it would work because of the amount of brush the mule deer had here in this state to hide in. The little ones were able grow up and get smart. Too many spikes and two points were being harvested here. Now the problem is predators.
I do disagree with a point restriction on the west side though. I used to be opposed to shooting spikes on the wet side but have changed my mind on that. There are enough big blacktails that make it through and the genetics are great here. I got a spike this year and got 53 lbs of meat off of it. Not bad and I can't eat the rack!
Post by: Galpster on November 06, 2009, 09:55:19 PM
Anyone?
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on November 10, 2009, 07:21:02 PM
Actually mossback, some of that info is false. 38 bucks were killed by archers in 388, 29 by rifle special permit. I would venture to guess that over half of those archery bucks are late season, if not most of them. So a small percentage compared to the late rifle??? I'm no math major, but that doesn't seem to add up. I fully agree that cougars and hair loss have resulted in a somewhat smaller deer herd, but that isn't at all what is being talked about on this thread.I said large mature Blacktail bucks, not just any legal buck. And do we believe that these actual numbers are correct with actual kills, or just the ones that have actually reported their harvests. It's pretty much an known within the area most of the local kills are not reporting anymore harvests, due to the fact that they suspect more kills shown within the area may show an over harvest resulting in shorter season's and restrictions, so even if they do harvest they just report a big goose egg on their report card, this is happening trust me I have known alot of people proceeding with this. People aren't stupid and they will always find a method or reaction to the WDFW actions. It's pretty easy you shoot a buck every year, but far as your report card it might just say no harvest. And if this is becoming the norm maybe it's just showing that the archery hunters are number one better hunters or just more honest. :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: jdb on November 10, 2009, 07:32:14 PM
I know that I will get flamed for this but who cares. I am in favor of shutting down hunting for a week or two during the peak of the rut to allow the deer to breed without being chased around. To make up for it, extend the season a week or two longer after the closure. I know that I am in the minority here but I don't like hunting "dumb" deer or elk. I always wait until late archery, well after the rut is over.I agree with a lot of what you have to say. our deer population is in serious trouble in many east side units and rut hunts at this stage of the game are ludicrous :twocents:
Post by: EastWaViking on November 10, 2009, 07:53:52 PM
I know that I will get flamed for this but who cares. I am in favor of shutting down hunting for a week or two during the peak of the rut to allow the deer to breed without being chased around. To make up for it, extend the season a week or two longer after the closure. I know that I am in the minority here but I don't like hunting "dumb" deer or elk. I always wait until late archery, well after the rut is over.I agree with a lot of what you have to say. our deer population is in serious trouble in many east side units and rut hunts at this stage of the game are ludicrous :twocents:
With a bow it isn't. What's ludicrous is keeping it open after the rut... baiters wipe out the biggest bucks after the rut when they are worn out and looking for food.
Post by: jdb on November 10, 2009, 09:46:48 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 10, 2009, 09:55:01 PM
are there really that many people baiting? :dunno:
you'd be surprised. I would make an educated guess that is is 3 out of 5 bow hunters over here.
Post by: Galpster on November 10, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
A- Increase point restrictions to 2 point or greater (allow does to be taken in doe heavy GMU's)
B- Reduce peak season a week and extend reg season by a week.
C- Baiting illegal after rut
D- Open kittie season year round in all GMU's.
Any thing I missed?
If we don't say anything or attend the meetings nothing will be done.
Post by: Curly on November 11, 2009, 08:31:26 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 11, 2009, 08:47:25 AM
Okay, after reading all the replies again here is what we should have typed up and certified mail to our congressmen and the WDFG;
A- Increase point restrictions to 2 point or greater (allow does to be taken in doe heavy GMU's)
B- Reduce peak season a week and extend reg season by a week.
C- Baiting illegal after rut
D- Open kittie season year round in all GMU's.
Any thing I missed?
If we don't say anything or attend the meetings nothing will be done.
I would vote for baiting illegal period, other than that not bad!
Post by: hunt4 on November 11, 2009, 11:24:20 AM
Quote
I would vote for baiting illegal period,
Not sure that solves anything.
I have never baited, but sure thought about it. It is just to tuff to get that 2nd cut back to were i hang my stands.
I think the guys baiting are on private land any ways :dunno: and how you going to stop them from doing that?
Another arguement for baiting. It sure would help for shot placement less wounding of game, guy gets his deer goes home done deal.
Just saying there could be some actual benifit to the herd # from baiting, you could even agrue there could be less enviromental impact. The guy that baits kills his deer sooner, so he does less driving, less littering (keystone beer cans)....ect :rolleyes:
Post by: duckmen1 on November 11, 2009, 02:56:07 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on November 11, 2009, 05:37:38 PM
The guy that baits kills his deer sooner, so he does less driving, less littering (keystone beer cans)....ect :rolleyes:
so, you are saying baiters are also the road hunters and litterers? :P
Post by: Galpster on November 12, 2009, 12:01:14 AM
Enough rambling--
Post by: PolarBear on November 12, 2009, 05:28:19 AM
I like your point on baitiing but I also like the idea of no baiting after the rut. Fair chase and I do not think baiting is fair chase. If I set out a steak and lobster dinner every night and u could smell it and knew nothing was wrong with it you would come and eat everyday. Then I would sit there and wait one day and well u know the rest of the story. Is that fair chase. NO. I watch Sprtsmans channel and turn it every time I see them unting bait stations because it is not hunting. I would even go as far to say that alot of the guided hunts today are not hunting it's pay us to come to our elk or deer farm and pick the one you want. No fair chase. I like hunting, getting out in the woods and getting a kill is a bonus. I do it ethically and I believe I give the animal a fair shot.:yeah:
Enough rambling--
Post by: EastWaViking on November 12, 2009, 07:36:34 AM
Post by: Axle on November 12, 2009, 04:14:07 PM
We should work together to keep our options open. I have never baited. I know of nobody who baits. I would defend baiting though. I see no problem with it. It is a good way of getting a deer.
We need baiting for predators too. Predators are why we have less deer. Less deer makes it hard on all of us. Idiots took away baiting for predators. This causes division among us. Divisions among us causes us to have less power as a group.
I could go on but you get the point.
Post by: Galpster on November 12, 2009, 11:05:50 PM
I think baiting is okay but not after the rut and open kittie season all year.
Anyone?
Post by: EastWaViking on November 13, 2009, 07:49:49 AM
I agree with baiting for kitties and yotes but not bear or deer and especially not after the rut. It is an important time for them after the rut to get their strength up and baiting them is just not fair chase. I do not see where you can say it is. I think that is the division amongst us hunters is questions of values and morales. I will not hunt an animal by baiting them or behind tall fences.
I think baiting is okay but not after the rut and open kittie season all year.
Anyone?
pretty much agree with you.
Post by: eastside boy on November 14, 2009, 06:37:16 PM