Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 01:29:57 PM
I was just reading some responses to a thread on baiting when it occurred to me how many people on here are convinced that the way they do things is necessarily the best way. I am lumping all comments on that thread with hundreds Ive read on here and gathered from people Ive met in the WA woods.
There is a big big feeling like still hunting is the most noble form of hunting in the woods today. Its clearly the 90+% answer for big game hunters on this forum . Let me tell ya, ya might wanna reconsider that as the best answer to proving EXPERTISE in hunting. :dunno:
Ive heard lots of even the more "experienced" hunters on here talking bad about baiting, treestand hunters, food plot hunters, and the like. :bash:
Well, heres a shot back! Theres a whole lot of hunters here in WA and on this forum that are HOPE HUNTERS in my opinion. You can call them ACCIDENTALLY ELITE hunters too...Ill know exactly what ya mean. They don't have a strategy or a game plan other than "Im gonna walk 20 miles today..see a lot of land and hope something hops out in front of me". Is that a strategy? Sure Is it even effective? Sure
Is that the measure by which Im gonna strive? Hell No!
Heres my thing, ...is HOPE HUNTING more complicated or refined than say tree stand hunting? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
In a tree stand, I can shoot about 45 yards in any one direction... Now, that means even if Im in a huge field I
have to guess where the deer is gonna walk through this 200 mile wood within 90 yards at best and thats rarely ever the case. I normally have a shooting lane or two...this one is 23 yards and that one is 17 yards. Thats it in a big big damn set of woods. Thats a pretty small margin of error with no chance of readjusting...relocating...ect. If ur wrong ur wrong and theres no 2nd chance..at least this hunt.
I digress.
My point is... Why is it that still hunters feel like they are the most elite hunters? Because they walk a long way? :dunno:
Let me tell ya, I am an Infantry soldier and I could bring ya 1,000 NON-HUNTER men that can walk 30 miles in one day with a rifle and 40 pounds on their backs. If I have them do that in the entiat or some other big animal backwoods in WA and also tell them to shoot any big deer, bear, or elk they see....
Does that mean they ELITE hunters the first time they get out in the woods and shoot something because they walked aways up the road before they ACCIDENTALLY ran across a decent animal? :bash:
I say NO. They were good hikers that got lucky.
Sound like a BS example? Its not just an example. At my office at work, Ive got pics of my animals. People all the time ask me to teach them to hunt. I always tell them I will after they get a license. 3 did. They had never ever hunted but all 3 were Infantry soldiers...meaning they can ruck (hike with packs and weapons).
I knew stand hunting is hard to teach so I took all three HOPE HUNTING. They were all afforded legal shooting opportunities. That means with a first or 2nd time ever hunting... behind a logging gate 10 miles in... they ACCIDENTALLY ran into game. How many of you still hunters are ready to call them equals as hunters?? Ill wait for the list to pile up full of still hunters that say these guys are just as good at hunting as they are. :rolleyes:
Now, there "can be" a difference between hope hunting and still hunting.
....still hunters that have a strategy including cutting off animals between bedding and feeding or whatever...then ur now getting closer to true hunting....rather than hoping.
Walking to a high point where you can see a long way to glass and make 300-400 yard shots.... = HOPE HUNTING augmented by 800$ binos and 20x power ultra mags. That isn't trickier nor does it require more skill than stand hunting with a bow. Anyone wanna take that challenge with me next year we can go head to head and Ill loan you a stand if you loan me the 800$ binos. :P
Ive heard lots of WA hunters telling me that black tails and elk cant be patterned... BULLSH*T .Ive done it time and time again this year. Ive sat and watched deer and elk day after day walk under my stand. The same deer and elk over and over. Sounds like to me they can be patterned and if I had 10 tags I could have filled them from a treestand on deer or elk. These hunters are either too impatient or lack the understanding of their prey to figure out a precise game plan.
These people say stand hunting doesnt work here...Yet Ive seen on here and even more in the woods that have still hunted themselves right into a unsuccessful year of cow elk hunting and no deer in the freezer.
Strategy driven still hunting which has a specific game plan which factors wind, bedding, feeding, travel routes, escape routes, ect. into the plan... is very respectable.
Walking 27 miles along a logging road behind a gate...HOPING to ACCIDENTALLY see and shoot a big animal requires no skill and IS NOT "HUNTING" to me. Its hiking with a gun and fingers crossed! And Ill do that with you as soon as you admit thats not a complicated game plan and it doesnt take 20 years of Elite hunting experience to do it.
Any way,
I said it on the other thread Ill say it again.
HUNTERS HAVE TO SUPPORT HUNTERS!
-still hunters
-stand hunters
-bait hunters
-hound hunters
-hope hunters
-spear hunters
-accidental hunters
-ect
Theres lots of ways to hunt. I dont do lots of those ways. If you are respecting the game animals and the laws...I support you even if thats not how I do it.
I suggest many of you wake up, evaluate ur stance that ur way is the only way or the best way and realize its just a way. Its a technique... and maybe not the preferred technique. :bash:
Stop judging other hunters. Stop being so damn sure ur way is the best way or the only way. Ill see you in the woods!
PS- theres a good chance Ill see you and you wont notice me 27 foot over ur head...and maybe asleep in my tree stand...lol
dave
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 02:25:02 PM
(my comment was inspired by the commercial that was playing while I read your post.) :IBCOOL:
Post by: mossback91 on January 05, 2008, 02:36:54 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 05, 2008, 02:37:57 PM
And by your deffinition stand hunting is hope hunting also.
I could really care less if people agree with the way i hunt. I am one of those that likes to hike and stalk animals. If that is your way good on ya, if not good on ya. Hunt the way you want and get on with your life...
Remember don't sweat the small stuff.
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 02:56:50 PM
My point is that many people on here are still hunters/ walk and stalk. Which is very successful. I do it plenty. But its not the only nor would I say its necessarily the most complicated or elite.
Stand hunting can be hope hunting just like walking up a road can be. The elite hunters understand their prey and place themselves where they will intercept the game during legal light. If thats by stalking, stand hunting, food plots, or baiting. I support it.
So thus far, you seem to be right in ur response although ur pissed off like I wanted because I wanted to point out how many people on here ...unlike me... feel like the way they do things is the only right way. Its not!
As for the 500 acre fence...if you are smart enough to know anything about WT deer...and Ill assume you are. You must know that most of them live their whole lives within an extremely small area..as in a few acres. They arent elk or bears traveling 20 miles a day brother. that just aint so.
So, if they live within 5 acres in the entiat...why does 500 acres in TX suddenly make them cattle trapped in a pen? That logic says hunting bears within the state of Rhode island is unfair because they need more room to run from you...lol
is that ur point?
The bashing on still hunters is meant to be ironical sense thats the majority here who ofen tell everyone else they need to evolve to their method.
The point is..we are all hunters and we need to support one another!!!
even you miles :P
Post by: mossback91 on January 05, 2008, 02:59:10 PM
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:00:34 PM
u may be right... did I forget to include and simultaneously bash road hunters? :P Im sorry...lol
By road hunters we mean like pickup truck hunters right? Like driving around glacing from the truck and then shooting the game across the hood of the ford? them too!
You suck but I support you...lol
but Im not sure how miles feels...lol
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:07:11 PM
Ill try to clarify.
My point is...stalking isnt more advanced than stand hunting... nor vice versa. And bait hunting isnt necessarily less skillful than walking down a road...or climbing into a tree stand. There isnt a technique that by its nature defines elite hunters.
Whatever technique you use... if it isnt employed using a strategic game plan that is derived by acute understanding of the game animal, terrain, weather, ect. then your not an advanced hunter because you use any one technique over the other.
Many people on here act like because they do it one way, the other 20 ways are wrong.
My point is the technique doesnt define the hunter... the application of a complete game plan is how I define an elite hunter.
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 05, 2008, 03:10:34 PM
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:16:53 PM
It seems like you agree with me on the technique doesnt make the hunter argument? or no? I mean, is it just me and Ive imagined the general sentiment that anything but still hunting is for the weaker brand of hunters?
Im not looking for comfort... Im just trying to generate discussion of technique (still/stand/bait/hound) versus knowledge ( game habits/terrain/patterns/weather/wind).
The point is whatever technique... if its not supported by serious homework its just ACCIDENTALLY HOPE HUNTING.
Post by: Antlershed on January 05, 2008, 03:22:49 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on January 05, 2008, 03:26:40 PM
Having a bad day?
(my comment was inspired by the commercial that was playing while I read your post.) :IBCOOL:
your watchin the game too i see, kinda dumb commercial i thought. winning 10 to zip
and to add to the thread, SUPPORT HOUND HUNTERS
Post by: Antlershed on January 05, 2008, 03:30:38 PM
Post by: coonhound on January 05, 2008, 03:31:07 PM
You are correct that we all need to stick together and there isn't one method any higher on the ELITE scale than another. I'ts what brings you, the hunter, personal satisfaction.
Coon
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:34:35 PM
You may be right. People dont seem to read the comments along the way.
I was trying to bash the group that normally does most of the bashing but only to be Ironical! I do or have done every technique Ive spoken about. Ive attempted to bash ALL techniques and then clarified that I accept all techniques previously bashed if the proper game plan isnt in place.
Climbing a tree...walking down a road...throwing corn on the ground... chasing dogs through the woods... all very effective or completely hope hunting if the homework hasnt been done.
meaning... The real discussion is supposed to be the importance of the game plan over technique applied.
Im trying to do the opposite of choosing, advocating, or bashing any one technique. I accept and support any and all techniques if the homework is done.
I tried to go about this the long way to get people fired up because many people on here...unlike me...feel like whatever way they hunt is the best way or only way.
Maybe I should have gotten to the point faster... it seems like people are fired up...which suggests I have identified at least some of those people that feel like their way is the only way...but I seem to be failing to shift the focus toward the importance of homework. :bash:
if people cant get that point (and thats my fault as its my post) then ur right its gonna be a waste to read and/or write.
So...to make it easier to follow
THIS THREAD IS INTENDED TO EXPRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF DOING UR HOMEWORK FOR THE HUNT AND THE RELATIVE LACK OF IMPORTANCE AS TO THE TECHNIQUE ONE USES TO APPLY THE GAME PLAN AFTER HOMEWORK. :P
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:44:24 PM
coonhunter u are a the BLUE RIBBON WINNER!
You got it buddy
as for antlers food plot comment... ur still off a little on my point buddy but its ok... I dont think Im writing straight today..too many people confused so it NO JOKE MUST BE ME!
I support all forms of hunting and hunters even if I dont necessarily do that type of hunting!
As for food plots... if you've never made a food plot it requires a great understanding of the game...surrounding environment...weather conditions... and planning years in advance... so theres lots of planning and homework involved. Once the food plot is in place its not like the search is over. If it was then the same thing could be said for every alfalfa field or apple tree in WA. I can show you...or you could probably show me... thousands of places where deer/elk/bear frequent because of a food source...but that doesn't mean you can just set up shop on that apple tree and bam! B&C animal on the ground 20 minutes later.
It requires homework and a plan...it just gives you a place to begin the homework with limited access to other hunters.
Post by: coonhound on January 05, 2008, 03:52:39 PM
Coon
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 03:56:10 PM
Miles...u sure are all upset...lol Im not. Relax and see the point through the banter.
I didnt necessarily mean to single you out buddy...
I also dont think Im twisting anything around...Ive been trying to clarify because my post was supposed to be a little joking bash on still hunters and a whole lot of discussion on how a game plan matters and the technique used not so much.
As for scouting. I did plenty this year and despite the fact I didnt hunt one state Id ever hunted in before... i racked up almost 3,000K in taxidermy bills... All fair chase... no fences... no bait.... no hounds....! So I guess Im doing enough scouting buddy. If ya got some hot spots ya wanna share Ill sure go scouting with ya ;)
Again, I support all techniques of hunting that my fellow brothers choose to employ even if I happen to use a different technique.
As for the fences... um sure... sounds good. I personally have never hunted within a fence but Ive found several that I wanna do...Ill post pics and let ya know when I do :P
unlike you apparently, I respect those hunters who do choose to hunt that way.
______________________________
Your right coon! At the end of the day, after all my homework...I still employ my technique for the day with crossed fingers...lol
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 04:14:23 PM
Thats true miles... I must have done it poorly because you cant understand it...lol :P
I bet you'd be better off just not even reading it...lol
but Im glad you are here. with me... its cozy
Post by: Antlershed on January 05, 2008, 05:15:39 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv336%2F4tacxoma4%2Fsucks.jpg&hash=1542a51fe99d97c56ff52584774bf61b1e130c15)
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 05:18:48 PM
Having a bad day?
(my comment was inspired by the commercial that was playing while I read your post.) :IBCOOL:
your watchin the game too i see, kinda dumb commercial i thought. winning 10 to zip
and to add to the thread, SUPPORT HOUND HUNTERS
Yep, dumb commercial but they did their job and got it stuck in my head.
Post by: ICEMAN on January 05, 2008, 05:36:07 PM
I "Hope" to shoot deer and elk and bear and grouse and turkey and duck, with all methods listed above. I "Hope" to hunt long enough, to use every method and technique ever tried.
I "Hope" that all you hunters choose to hunt with any technique, any method of travel, or planning, or purpose, really really far away from me. :IBCOOL:
But most importantly, I "Hope", and I do mean really really REALLY "Hope" that someone locks this thread before something bad happens. :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 05:39:45 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 05:43:37 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on January 05, 2008, 05:45:23 PM
Pattern blacktails, lets see some biguns, not does or spikes either. I like this argument, the pards and I are eliteist in this dept. Can I see some easy patternable dead buck pics?
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 05:47:05 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 05, 2008, 05:48:29 PM
People all the time ask me to teach them to hunt
No thanks............. :fishin:
Post by: ICEMAN on January 05, 2008, 05:49:47 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on January 05, 2008, 05:54:56 PM
MS
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 06:22:25 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 05, 2008, 06:24:44 PM
I'm not sure how to spell it let alone classify it. I always thought that was what the master hunter thing was, then I met some of those guys.....(no offense to the program just th e oxymoron of the title versus some of the idiots(NOT EVERYBODY) that get it)
I agree and I am a "master hunter" :chuckle:
Post by: Ray on January 05, 2008, 06:33:59 PM
Call it hope hunting, claim it elitist, call people like me lucky to help your cause. Doesn't matter to me. I've spent plenty of time in the infantry and there were a bunch of tough guys but an equal amount of wimpy ones that wanted more of their mothers teet (*)(*) :chuckle: than to stay in the infantry.
Overall I don't see the connection to where you can begin to claim that people are outright stating that their method is the best method or more successful for anyone but themselves.
Glass hunting with binos requires patience as does someone waiting for some game animal to walk by from their stand. Overall I suspect your rambling rant is really just based upon you drawing too many conclusions from random discussions which may not be true and more likely coincidental interpretations than anything else.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 06:46:11 PM
I'm not sure how to spell it let alone classify it. I always thought that was what the master hunter thing was, then I met some of those guys.....(no offense to the program just th e oxymoron of the title versus some of the idiots(NOT EVERYBODY) that get it)I agree and I am a "master hunter" :chuckle:
I agree as well, and I am also one. I prefer the term AHE graduate, but I do have a "Master Hunter" patch. :tung:
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on January 05, 2008, 06:47:22 PM
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 05, 2008, 08:03:21 PM
How do you measure success. Same way you do a big slong, with a tape measure. INCHES BABY!
:rolleyes: Why is it when their is an argument among guys this topic always comes up?
I read about 2/3 of this threat and was totaly lost! :dunno:
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 08:07:41 PM
How do you measure success. Same way you do a big slong, with a tape measure. INCHES BABY!
:rolleyes: Why is it when their is an argument among guys this topic always comes up?
I read about 2/3 of this threat and was totaly lost! :dunno:
Quote
I read about 2/3 of this threatWhat threat? :dunno:
Why is it when a woman gets in the middle of a mans argument it gets blown out of proportion? :IBCOOL:
Post by: actionshooter on January 05, 2008, 08:08:25 PM
As for scouting. I did plenty this year and despite the fact I didnt hunt one state Id ever hunted in before... i racked up almost 3,000K in taxidermy bills... All fair chase... no fences... no bait.... no hounds....! So I guess Im doing enough scouting buddy. If ya got some hot spots ya wanna share Ill sure go scouting with ya ;)
Putting high fence killing in the same category as bait and hounds sounds kind of eliteist? Or did I miss something? :dunno:
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 08:13:23 PM
Quote
As for scouting. I did plenty this year and despite the fact I didnt hunt one state Id ever hunted in before... i racked up almost 3,000K in taxidermy bills
But wasn't that bear a gimmee? A prayer answered?
Nothing against that, as I always say "Ya can't kill em from the couch".
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 08:14:45 PM
Yah, keep her out of this Billy. :chuckle:
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 05, 2008, 08:17:07 PM
You still didn't answer my question. Why is it everytime guys get into an argument it turns into a size contest? :P
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 08:20:53 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 08:25:41 PM
Holy moly I am going to post before reading what I wrote, so I ought to get into all sorts of trouble with this one.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on January 05, 2008, 08:28:00 PM
[/quote]
Quote
I read about 2/3 of this threatWhat threat? :dunno:
Why is it when a woman gets in the middle of a mans argument it gets blown out of proportion? :IBCOOL:
[/quote]
Billy Ya got to hear what they mean, not what they say :chuckle: :chuckle: :IBCOOL:
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 05, 2008, 08:30:19 PM
My pee pee is bigger than your pee so I got a bigger bone pile than you do!
Boneaddict, Billythekidrock and I think we need to see your bone pile.
Post by: boneaddict on January 05, 2008, 08:32:16 PM
Post by: Ironhead on January 05, 2008, 08:32:55 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 08:35:14 PM
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
My pee pee is bigger than your pee so I got a bigger bone pile than you do!
Boneaddict, Billythekidrock and I think we need to see your bone pile. Put up or shut up!
Hey, whoa... I just encouraged your post, not that I wanted to see bones "bone" pile..
Post by: billythekidrock on January 05, 2008, 08:37:06 PM
Quote
Billy Ya got to hear what they mean, not what they say
Yea, I guess I didn't have my "female filters" on..lol
Post by: actionshooter on January 05, 2008, 08:50:23 PM
High fences , food plots and baiting are just not the same as free ranging, fair chase,public land hunts. I don't care how you try to spin it.
I hope that wasn't aimed at me. Not trying to spin anything. I don't do any of the above but there is a big difference between a high fence shooting (I won't call it a hunt) and baiting/ houndhunting. I think they are a legitimate method for hunting certain animals.
Did you vote for the ban?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on January 05, 2008, 09:06:42 PM
Post by: Ray on January 05, 2008, 09:16:33 PM
I believe you are the expert among us. :hello:
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 10:05:11 PM
For that, Im sorry. I normally think I write ok but man I must have been way way off with this.
As for the point...its was really somewhere in between "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG" and LET HUNTERS HUNT THE WAY THEY ENJOY HUNTING as long as they respect the game and follow the law.
The rest was just meant as tongue in cheek banter to get people pissed off. What happened is they did get pissed off but didnt realize it was banter and then they missed the overall message I had intended...
So, please feel free to not respond further to this waste of a thread.
As for seeing bones 'bone" pile?? Id rather not compare antlers with you brother... You seem to pass on things that make my shooters run for cover.
Ill take my chances in the penis contest Michelle wants to see :chuckle:
Maybe you can find out why the screen name is "LONGTAT"...lol :P
any way, I apologize for the poorly written thread... Ill do better next time.... and no more threads before Ive been awake for at least 30 minutes.
Again..take away message?? SUPPORT OTHER HUNTERS!!! including me...lol
Post by: Colville on January 05, 2008, 10:16:25 PM
No one said Stalking vs Stand hunting was the "IT" in hunting. The issue was baiting.
Whitetail hunters know that for the most part stand hunting is what's going to work. The question is not whether or not the guy sneaking ridges vs sitting a stand is "elite". Neither of those guys care. Both of those guys think a guy hunting over corn and salt licks is a P.O.S.
This isn't about style. I hunt whitetails by spending a lot of time looking for where they are, finding rubs/scrapes and taking notes about the movement I see over the years. I stand hunt on very productive ground because I've learned what they like. I could make my life a TON easier by placing 5 bags of salted peanuts, a salt lick and half a bail of alfalfa in the area I hunt. I'd kill my buck in exactly one day every year. And I'd know I did not kill a deer behaving naturally in it's natural surrounds. I'd know I killed a cow to slaughter.
Animals are for eating so if you like that and you want to eat them GOOD FOR YOU. I have no problem with a guy that loves eating deer and will shoot one walking off alfalfa on exactly the same path it has for the last 90 days straight. Just don't tell me you hunted. Killed a deer? Sure!. Ethical, Sure!. Skillfull hunter... bite me.
There's a ton of hope and luck in hunting. Different game requires different styles. Alpine mulies aren't hunted on a rub line. White tails aren't hunted by glassing alpine ridges and moving a lot. Baiting is what it is. It's a way to attract deer to behave in a way they wouldn't normally because you can't/won't take the time to figure out how to get them in their natural movements. Again, I don't see a big ethical issue here, just admit what you are if you hunt this way. You are the hunting equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It works, you eat meat. Just don't sing about it being an achievement and we can all get along.
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 05, 2008, 10:18:03 PM
A "bone pile" contest most deffinatly! ;)
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 05, 2008, 10:36:22 PM
Than again you cant just pull off to the side of the road take a 20 mile hike and expect to see game. If you have never been in that area befor. Yes chances are your going to see something.
Hunting requires home work. I beleive anyone can ride around in their truck on the road, glass clear cuts, and shoot a legal deer with out doing pre-season scouting. When it comes to baiting I see no problem wit it. Personally, where do you draw the line between baiting and running hounds? Either way the animal being hunted would not be acting naturally like they would be on their own in a natural setting.
If it came to a vote again I would vote to legalize baiting and hounding for cougar and bear. Is baiting and hounding ethical that is up to the hunter. Personally I think it requires its own skills.
I mean you can't just dump a bucket of apples in the middle of the woods and expect deer to pile in. You still have to do your home work and look for a good bait site weather hunting deer or bear.
When it comes to hound hunting you cant just take a dog with no training out. You have to put in the time to train the dog properly. Plus you have to care for that dog. Even than you can't just park on a clear cut and turn the dog loose and expect to tree someting.
With both Baiting and hounding it requires you to do your home work. Scout, talk to other hunters. You have to gather information, and put it together.
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 05, 2008, 10:38:03 PM
Well Ive already admitted I dont wanna compare antlers with bones...lol
Post by: ICEMAN on January 06, 2008, 08:12:22 AM
There's a ton of hope and luck in hunting. Different game requires different styles. Alpine mulies aren't hunted on a rub line. White tails aren't hunted by glassing alpine ridges and moving a lot. Baiting is what it is. It's a way to attract deer to behave in a way they wouldn't normally because you can't/won't take the time to figure out how to get them in their natural movements. Again, I don't see a big ethical issue here, just admit what you are if you hunt this way. You are the hunting equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It works, you eat meat. Just don't sing about it being an achievement and we can all get along.
Agree, very well stated.
Muley hunting isn't usually associated with stand hunting, but sometimes it can be. For years I hunted a migratory route, where deer had to pass thru because of rugged obstruction, this was the trail, period. Our family shot a ton of large bucks here. This spot was located after alot of trial and error, and searching. Once we found the best spot, we would sit and watch it every year. Sort of took the fun out of it actually, just turned the hunt into a waiting game. Instead, I rather move a bit, in good areas, glassing, experienceing the area, the changing terrain, the chainging weather..... "hunting". Sitting just to claim a deer that has to travel thru, or routinely travels thru an area seems to me to be a bit boring. It isn't all about the kill, and weighing the amount of hours it took you to shoot your buck. How many times have you secretly thought, "gee I hope I don't tag out early...". I have worried about this often. I want to hunt. I want to struggle, and try, and lose. I want to go home and shake my head and wonder. I want to have that nightmare all "off season", about how I blew it last year. These are the things that make hunting fun. The anticipation, the frustration, and finally the successes.
I am opinionated enough, I need to shut my mouth often. In this case, I see where all hunt strategies are useful in the myriad of hunting opportunities available to us. I simply choose my strategy based upon what I personally want to get out of my hunt. My freezer is full, and I had to buy a second one this fall. I choose the strategy that will keep me in the woods with a smile on my face.
Post by: mossback91 on January 06, 2008, 09:07:14 AM
Post by: Guy on January 06, 2008, 03:36:32 PM
Problem is, we built cities on their traditional wintering grounds. Wenatchee is a perfect example. First it was likely sagebrush with scattered trees, like the surrounding hills. Later it was orchards - which were not bad habitat for the mulies. Now it's a city of 30,000+, with another 70,000 or so in the nearby areas on either side of the Columbia. Most of what was once low-lying, relatively sheltered mule deer wintering area is now a city. The deer still come down. I had fresh tracks in my front yard just a few days ago. Most though, hang around the city limits. Once in a while a confused mulie will be downtown when sun rises and cars & people start moving about. Usually ends badly for the mulie.
So now - without their traditional/natural wintering grounds they depend on us to help them through the winter in many areas. Same with the elk and bighorn sheep herds. We feed them to sustain them through the winters.
FWIW, Guy
Post by: cohoho on January 06, 2008, 05:15:42 PM
Greetings,
Though I haven't done it in nearly a decade, I am a supporter of bear baiting because of the sound ecological principles that underlie its effectiveness as a management tool. The key to understanding this concept is in BOTH the timing of the bear take over bait AND the large number of bears (a renewable resource) that are harvested annually.
Though ethics must certainly dictate our actions, we can all come up with examples of unethical hunting practices that we've either witnessed or read about. Thus, centering a defense of bear baiting around "ethics" is a poor strategy since they reflect opinions. Everyone has opinions, and the hunting community is only a small fraction of Alaska's residents and even a smaller fraction of the national average. Thus, it puts ethically-centered arguments down at the same level as those with anti-bear baiting opinions who have different ethics. It is much more effective to focus on scientific reasoning and empirical data, so I would like to share some original ideas since our collective voices will be heard among a much broader audience than mine, alone. For example:
-- The PEAK of bear emergence from the den in Southcentral AK is usually around the first week of May (with a bit of annual variation correlated with snow cover duration ).
-- Then the bears remain lethargic for a week to 10 days as their metabolism gradually readjusts to a more active lifestyle.
-- Around the last part of May, at the same time moose and caribou begin dropping their calves, bears have ravenous appetites, and many have been shown to specialize at preying upon newborn caribou and moose calves. The exact proportion of bears (black or brown) shown to prey upon calves hasn't been established and would certainly vary from year to year and unit to unit anyway.
-- Since bear baiting only occurs in the spring, it removes a large number of bears that may otherwise feed on a large number of calves.
-- Spot and stalk bear hunting is another effective method in the spring, but the important message is that a large number of bears are killed over bait. STATEWIDE averages show that approximately 20% of the 2,500 black bears taken ANNUALLY are taken over bait. However, bear baiting is not allowed in the fall, so this proportion is obviously much higher when looking solely at the spring harvest, which is when the calves are so vulnerable and most ungulate predation occurs. Thus, baiting is an extremely effective management tool that affects bear, moose, and caribou populations.
-- After bear baiting season is finished (mutilate June, depending on area), moose calves are fast and agile enough that they are no longer as vulnerable to bear predation as they were only a few weeks prior, AND there are less predatory bears in the population.
-- Relying solely on the fall bear harvest isn't effective since many bears harvested at that time have already eaten calves of the year and have already taken their toll on moose and caribou recruitment.
-- Finally, its unrealistic to assume we can continue to take the same number of prey species every year while decreasing annual predator harvest. This leaves more predators (including humans) and exerts GREATER pressure on a finite prey resource. Its like imposing bag limits on pike in trout lakes.
-- The message that needs to be stressed is that we can't afford to eliminate a management tool as effective as bear baiting, or it will have consequences among both consumptive and non-consumptive users. These ecological principles tie us, bears, moose, and caribou together in the same food web.
A few nonscientific considerations:
-- Supporters of the bear baiting ban initiative are promoting the idea that baiting bears will somehow place urban residents at great risk. This is a rather nebulous argument; however, bear baiting isn't even legal around Alaska's most urbanized population centers. If a bear, like a human, smells something delicious... even if it has never tasted that item before, it will investigate the scent. Thus, it is unwise handling/storage of aromatic items that attract bears to urban areas, not the baiting that occurs in rural areas.
-- Since bear baiting isn't allowed in (hunting subunits) surrounding Alaska's major population centers, the vast majority of individuals deciding the fate of this management technique don't live where bear baiting is more necessary to maintain healthy populations of subsistence species. Thus, this ban will likely exacerbate the urban/rural divide in Alaska and give ADF&G a black eye if the consequences of increasing bear densities are realized.
Post by: boneaddict on January 06, 2008, 06:26:11 PM
Post by: Wea300mag on January 06, 2008, 07:04:54 PM
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2008, 07:18:00 PM
I have never been into drugs but the first two pages of this thread must be what it is like to be on drugs.:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 06, 2008, 07:59:49 PM
The overall point was lets support one another even if someone uses another technique than you choose. As in you stalk, I stand hunt, jimmy glasses, franky baits, Bobby hound hunts, and Ralph road hunts. As long as its legal and they respect the game... I support it all.
I started this thread from a crappy angle and luckily you boys and girl were able to weed through my crap and get me and my thread back on track.
I feel like...just like the info from the Alaska article posted above... these divisions between hunters based on techniques are wonderful ways to give Anti-hunters info on how to attack us...at are weakest points...which is where we disagree.
Its hard to think about but Ive seen TONS of comments on this forum and even one or two in this very thread that could greatly educate a non-hunter reading it on a place to attack hunting in WA.
I truly believe its the divisions like baiting versus stalking ect that allowed anti-hunters to get rid of most hound hunting in this state and others.
So... I dont road hunt... I dont take the soccer mom SUV up any roads that might get it dirty but let me tell ya... let someone start talking about placing legislation into action to make it unlawful to say...shoot within 200 yards of your vehicle... and watch me show my ass like no other!! Does it exactly affect me? NO way...
Do I feel like any attack on hunting by anti-hunter legislation indirectly affects me and my style of hunting... HELL YES! and Ill fight it all the way.
Thats what this thread is supposed to be about. I just started it very poorly. :dunno:
thanks everyone for slogging through it to get at my point. ;)
Post by: actionshooter on January 06, 2008, 08:07:57 PM
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 06, 2008, 08:13:14 PM
dave
Post by: billythekidrock on January 06, 2008, 08:19:45 PM
Unfoutunatley to many of our brothers looked the other way when baiting and houndhunting came to a vote. We took a really big hit in the overall picture of hunting.
I agree and I blame the fishermen! :chuckle:
Just think of all the folks that only fish..if they had voted with us. :dunno:
The thing that gets me is when the people who voted for the bans ask F&G for help. One I can remember was a small timber owner near Oakville. All his trees were being killed by bears and he was pretty pissed about it. When asked if he voted against the hound ban he said, " I can't remember".
You vote against, don't purchase licenses, or post your land then you should foot the bill for damages or F&G costs.
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 06, 2008, 08:36:24 PM
Thats where I killed my elk...but on private land... the guy asked me to come and kill bears doing damage there...I went, never saw a bear or bear damage...killed my 5x5 elk...never went back... maybe i should have gave it more of my attention.
funny how people arent willing to look a little down the road and see how ur loss today could be my loss tomorrow. I cant believe the timber company didnt give the hound hunters a strong supporting hand. :dunno:
Post by: Ray on January 06, 2008, 10:03:55 PM
Some other things I don't mind or care about if someone partakes in one way or the other:
Archery - traditional vs. modern
Muzzleloader hunting - old school vs. modern
semi auto rifles for hunting
road hunting
still hunting
spot and stalk hunting
canned hunts
trapping
I think that blind or still hunting is really good on birds but I couldn't bring myself to do it on large game. At least not yet. Also just because I don't do it doesn't mean I expect anyone else not to.
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 06, 2008, 10:31:05 PM
Ill hunt field mice in a barrel with slingshots if someone will show me how...lol ;)
Post by: cohoho on January 06, 2008, 10:50:38 PM
I got to admit, I quit hunting over bait in Alaska, ONLY BECAUSE I MOVED, darn it.....
Last thing Tat, let me know when you'll be the guest host of Fox's, The O'Reily Spin Factor show.... I'll tune in....
Keeping it light................ :chuckle:
Post by: billythekidrock on January 07, 2008, 05:58:41 AM
Quote
I cant believe the timber company didnt give the hound hunters a strong supporting hand.
They didn't have to openly support it as there were special provisions allowing the timber companies to use hounds.
Post by: dbllunger on January 07, 2008, 02:12:20 PM
Post by: gray brow on January 07, 2008, 08:51:20 PM
To salvage the time invested in reading the thread, I'll take away the notion that we hunters need to stick together and present a united front against those who would seek to take away our hunting privelages. I remember when the antis went after the hound hunters and some of the folks I knew said "who cares? We don't hunt with hounds".
Well, the problem with that logic is that the antis don't care about hound hunting either. Their goal is to ban all hunting. They're simply borrowing a page out of the anti-gun strategic manual.
Get a ban on one form of hunting or type of gun, and you've got a precedence. The proverbial slippery slope gets established. Ridiculously simple but extremely effective against a group of hunters, gun owners, or whatever that can't see the forest for the trees.
Post by: high country on January 08, 2008, 06:25:14 PM
Post by: high country on January 08, 2008, 07:03:20 PM
Post by: LongTatLaw on January 08, 2008, 07:43:59 PM
I wonder if the topic comes back to the table if they wouldnt be more inclined to lend a hand?
Im not sure...but Ill take help where ever I can get it!
Post by: Skycruiser on January 08, 2008, 08:53:11 PM
In forums like this LESS IS MORE. Edit, edit, edit. Meaning trim, trim, trim out every extraneous word you possibly can.
Limit yourself to ONE POINT per post. That one point should fit in one sentence. Stay with it until it does. Any other sentences should only enhance that one point.
Stay cool. Make a single, reasoned point. Make it well.
Then you will have our respect.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 30, 2008, 12:36:42 AM
Dont screw it for one hunter so that someone else can point the finger on how you do it, and then say oh my bad, because if we continue pointing fingers then we are never going to be able to hunt someday......and i sure as hell dont want that!
Lets all support everything, and maybe someday we will actually be able to focus on the things that are affecting the way we hunt, not the way the next hunter next to you got a bigger deer, or how he got more animals.........
I believe by reading his initial post and reading on others that he didnt change his mind at all...........
Support every kind of hunting is all i believe he is trying to say....! and if not then thats what i am saying........
Post by: Alchase on April 30, 2008, 12:24:00 PM
"well thought out strategic game plan that is derived by acute understanding of the game animal, terrain, and weather"
pushes that monster buck I have been dreaming about all my life right into range of my still hunting rifle. LOL
;)
Post by: Dman on May 01, 2008, 04:23:57 PM
But,
I disagree that hiking long distances equates to no plan, or "accidental" success. The very action of hiking well back behind locked gates to me is a sound strategy for deer hunting. Remember, in some States it is illegal to bait game and in Washington it has been illegal to bait for certain species so on that point, like it or not you will find some who don't share the view that it is necessary to be successful -that doesn't mean that I would vote for a ban on baiting to be clear, I just don't find it necessary for the type of hunting I do. However, I would respect a hunter that is versatile and can try most forms of hunting, even if I don't practice all of them myself.
DD
Post by: zackmioli on May 01, 2008, 05:29:34 PM
either way, its hunting and i love it!