Post by: elksnout on November 28, 2009, 09:11:38 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on November 28, 2009, 09:20:01 PM
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2009, 09:20:39 PM
The average points to draw Margaret was 10.39 and Toutle was 7.44. But those numbers are misleading. They are just a reflection of the average number of points of the people applying for those permits, really. You could have 20 points and with only 18 permits available for Margaret, and 3,551 people applying for it, your odds of drawing are still extremely low.
Post by: elksnout on November 28, 2009, 09:38:26 PM
In 2008 there were 36 permits availble for the Margaret, this year only 18 permits. What gives there too ?
Post by: Crunchy on November 29, 2009, 08:24:11 AM
Post by: SilkWWU on November 29, 2009, 08:40:51 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 10:51:26 AM
Post by: Crunchy on November 29, 2009, 10:58:06 AM
Post by: bobcat on November 29, 2009, 11:15:15 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 11:19:36 AM
I like our draw system and I know a lot of other people that do as well. It's as fair, or more fair, than the sytems some other states have. The point system wasn't meant to guarantee that everybody will draw a permit. There are just too many people applying for too few permits. There is no point system that will allow everybody to draw limited numbers of permits. The only thing that will help draw odds is to decrease the number of people applyling or to increase the number of permits. The only real solution I see to do that would be to eliminate general seasons and most people don't want that. All I can say is if you have lots of points and still aren't being drawn for anything, apply for permits that aren't so popular.-There are lots of guys like this out there who im sure put in for cow tags and still want a decent chance at a big bull tag, well it shouldnt work like that and if it was like oregon's system I would have had my tag 2 years ago. You put in the time you need to be rewarded for it!
Post by: Alan K on November 29, 2009, 11:21:25 AM
I like our draw system and I know a lot of other people that do as well. It's as fair, or more fair, than the sytems some other states have. The point system wasn't meant to guarantee that everybody will draw a permit. There are just too many people applying for too few permits. There is no point system that will allow everybody to draw limited numbers of permits. The only thing that will help draw odds is to decrease the number of people applyling or to increase the number of permits. The only real solution I see to do that would be to eliminate general seasons and most people don't want that. All I can say is if you have lots of points and still aren't being drawn for anything, apply for permits that aren't so popular.
Pretty much sums it up. I've got double digit points for everything except deer. It doesn't bother me that I haven't been drawn. I know I've got a better chance than those with fewer points, and it's nice to know that I'll have a chance to draw again before waiting another 15 years once I do get drawn.
Colorado, like other states I'm sure, is max points and it sucks. The ammount of points needed increases every year because like bobcat said, there are too many people putting in for too few permits. It virtually guarentees you will only ever draw once in your life for a premier tag. I much prefer to have a chance at least, even if it is slim to none.
Post by: Alan K on November 29, 2009, 11:23:19 AM
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 11:26:09 AM
-Bottom line Washington draw system Sucks! 14Pt's and cant draw but a guy with 3 does :bash: Theres so many people with 5 or less Pt's that the guys with 15 next year still probably wont draw because theres to many damn people in the hat! There needs to be a % of tags to guys with 15Pt's!
this is actally why our system is good, everybody gets a chance. ive drawn nothing ever, but i have a chance every year. not like some states where theres years you flat know you dont have a chance to draw. by the way this has been beaten to death on here
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 11:29:03 AM
-There are lots of guys like this out there who im sure put in for cow tags and still want a decent chance at a big bull tag, well it shouldnt work like that and if it was like oregon's system I would have had my tag 2 years ago. You put in the time you need to be rewarded for it!
this is pretty silly too. you need to be rewarded for what? paying 5 bucks?
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 11:30:08 AM
Post by: huntnphool on November 29, 2009, 11:33:24 AM
I like our draw system and I know a lot of other people that do as well. It's as fair, or more fair, than the sytems some other states have. The point system wasn't meant to guarantee that everybody will draw a permit. There are just too many people applying for too few permits.
:yeah:
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 11:33:41 AM
-Applying for 19 years and not drawing is what im talking about!-There are lots of guys like this out there who im sure put in for cow tags and still want a decent chance at a big bull tag, well it shouldnt work like that and if it was like oregon's system I would have had my tag 2 years ago. You put in the time you need to be rewarded for it!
this is pretty silly too. you need to be rewarded for what? paying 5 bucks?
Post by: bobcat on November 29, 2009, 11:36:49 AM
-Theres lots of views on this topic, Ive been applying for Bull permits since I was 9 and now I'm 28 and never have drawn! Something is F'd up with that! This next year something is suppost to change so hopefully it benefits the guys like me that have applied the longest! We will see :rolleyes:
Tell me what permits you've been applying for and I'll tell you why you haven't been drawn.
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 11:38:53 AM
Post by: bobcat on November 29, 2009, 11:39:31 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 11:42:42 AM
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 11:44:30 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 11:49:10 AM
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 11:56:55 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 12:03:21 PM
Post by: littlebuf on November 29, 2009, 12:12:53 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 29, 2009, 12:21:49 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on November 29, 2009, 01:57:02 PM
Post by: bobcat on November 29, 2009, 04:45:10 PM
agreeing with bobcat I would like to see 2 choices or even 1 choice implamented, that would up the odds bigtime I would think! again we will see!
I'm not sure how it would affect odds of drawing. Some hunts could become easier to draw, and others more difficult. Overall the odds would not change. At least in my mind I don't see how the overall odds would change, when you have the same number of applicants and the same number of permits. But yes, some of the more popular buck and bull permits should be easier to draw if a person could only have 1 or 2 choices instead of 4. Myself, for the elk permits, I would no longer apply for bull permits. As it is now, I will apply for a couple of cow permits for my 3rd and 4th choices. For my 1st and 2nd choices I'll put in for a couple of the best bull permits there are, not at all expecting to draw, but a guy might as well put down 4 choices. If they were to change to having only 1 or 2 choices, I would then only apply for cow permits. So I could see how odds for drawing the bull permits might improve, if other people more interested in elk meat than antlers did the same thing as me, and quit applying for the bull permits.
Post by: washelkhntr on November 29, 2009, 07:12:53 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on November 29, 2009, 07:29:01 PM
Post by: washelkhntr on November 29, 2009, 07:36:36 PM
Post by: lokidog on November 29, 2009, 08:52:06 PM
I think one change that would help increase tag opportunities would be to split some areas into smaller ones thus spreading the hunting pressure and allowing for more animals to be taken. :twocents:
I am not sure i have a lot of faith in WDFW making any changes that benefit anyone.....
Post by: GoldTip on November 29, 2009, 09:04:46 PM
Post by: haus on November 30, 2009, 09:10:20 AM
geez, the systems fine, if your an unlucky sob then your an unlucky sob. Your probability of being draw isn't a hidden fact unless the tags completely new, even then you can get a general idea of what the demand might be on a tag if your familiar with the area its for. I'm one of those unlucky sob's, thats why I don't gamble, sooner or later I'll get drawn no worries. Seem to do so-so for the deer draw; elk not a damn thing.
What sux is when you do get drawn then something comes up and you can't go :bash: Just ate a tag for 578 late, was really looking forward to it too.
Post by: Alan K on November 30, 2009, 12:42:48 PM
How many names are in the hat. No, not how many applicants like they have, but how many times everyones names are in the hat. Then with some simple math you could figure out what sort of odds you have based on how many points you have.
Would also like to see how many of the applicants are first through fourth choices.
As it is now, it gives you a very rough look at your odds. It really doesn't show you much.
Post by: fishm@n on November 30, 2009, 01:07:28 PM
Just keep at it or move to the rockies where there are a lot more elk and hunting season goes from Sept to the end of November with your choice of weapons.
Post by: Chewack Slayer on November 30, 2009, 01:58:06 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 30, 2009, 06:25:22 PM
Post by: elksnout on November 30, 2009, 09:02:31 PM
Post by: bobcat on November 30, 2009, 09:06:51 PM
Quote
The average points to draw Margaret was 10.39 and Toutle was 7.44
I predict you will draw Toutle next year! No chance in hell on the Margaret though. ;)
Post by: elksnout on November 30, 2009, 09:18:46 PM
Post by: fishcrazy on November 30, 2009, 09:56:58 PM
I don't care how you change things the odds won't change. No matter how you stack things up when you have 3 thousand people putting in for an area with 5 tags it will take allot of years before all those guys get tags. You can give guys points when they don't draw or what ever but the odds are still against you.
Maybe the best way to increase odds would be to eliminate the guys who draw for 3 years. Example... I drew a tag this year so for the next 3 years I can't draw an elk tag. WDFW would never do this as they want my money for those 3 years.
I talk to allot of :'( who can't figure out why they never draw the bull tags. They allways draw the cow tags. If you put in for a cow tag remember the cow tags have better odds and when you burn the points on one it's a double wamy against you.
Kris
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 01, 2009, 05:24:41 AM
Look at the premier tags in oregon, if you do not have max points right now you will never get drawn. i saw where someone figured out that it will take 35 years to cycle through those with the most points.
Colorado is the same way, if you put in for 1,2,10, 210 right now you will never draw. When we started puting in for colorado it took 12 points to draw one of those tags, now 18-20. They get even further out of reach every year.
My vote would to keep it like it is. At least you have a chance to draw a tag.
Post by: MADMAX on December 01, 2009, 06:09:51 AM
Post by: funkster on December 01, 2009, 08:22:31 AM
I think the system is pretty good. You could increase your odds of drawing if the wdfw made the applicant only choose 1 or 2 hunt choices instead of 4. I wouldn't mind if you could buy points either. Put a two point limit per year and make a point $50,this could only help the wdfw with added money they desperately need,best of both worlds :twocents:
BTW, I have 5 points.
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2009, 08:34:40 AM
As far as odds of drawing being increased by decreasing the number of choices, as I said previously, I think it would increase odds for some permits but decrease odds for others. Now take just the Margaret and Toutle bull elk permits. A lot of people probably only apply for those two every year. If we only had two choices instead of four, they would still be applying for the same two choices. So maybe nothing would change? If only one choice was available, I could see many people choosing the Toutle because it has so many more permits available than the Margaret. So possibly Margaret WOULD become easier to draw, but then the Toutle might also become more difficult to draw. But it's hard to say. Too many variables.
Post by: funkster on December 01, 2009, 09:41:55 AM
What do you think if they didn't make you choose east or west side before the drawing? That might fall into the same problem but it might spread out the applicants a little more.
Post by: Dipsnort on December 01, 2009, 09:54:53 AM
I wouldn't mind if you could buy points either. Put a two point limit per year and make a point $50,this could only help the wdfw with added money they desperately need,best of both worlds :twocents:Please tell me you didn't say that! I'm actually quite surprised they haven't come up with this scheme during one of their "how do we screw the hunting public out of additional cash without actually providing additional hunting opportunity?" brainstorming sessions. And the additional revenue would go to the general fund, NOT the WDFW. You do know that, right? :bdid:
Post by: WSU on December 01, 2009, 12:36:26 PM
-With how the system is now the lower points guys or everybody for that matter has a chance at the best tags but chances are you still will never draw the tag, With a percentage of tags to the guys at the top at least you know you will for sure draw a tag in your lifetime. But again im sure everybody opposed doesnt have 14pts, but even if it was 50% of tags everybody would still have a chance! At least change something cause what we have now sucks :twocents:
I assume you would want something like Oregon has, where the people with the highest number of points putting in for a hunt are guaranteed to draw. That way, you can figure out when you will be drawn, and eventually are guaranteed to draw (in theory). Is this correct? The main problem I see is that most people will have zero chance at drawing at all. Younger people get screwed. The fact that someone didn't start putting in for tags 15 years ago will preclude them from ever having a chance at drawing one of the premier tags since there will always be someone in front of them with more points. It seems to be better for the younger generation to have some sort of chance at drawing these tags. I know that when I have kids, I would not want their chance to draw a big bull tag to be zero simply because they were born later than the majority of people putting in for tags.
Post by: Alan K on December 01, 2009, 12:47:32 PM
The main problem I see is that most people will have zero chance at drawing at all. Younger people get screwed. The fact that someone didn't start putting in for tags 15 years ago will preclude them from ever having a chance at drawing one of the premier tags since there will always be someone in front of them with more points. It seems to be better for the younger generation to have some sort of chance at drawing these tags. I know that when I have kids, I would not want their chance to draw a big bull tag to be zero simply because they were born later than the majority of people putting in for tags.
Exactly.
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 01, 2009, 06:58:16 PM
I get frustrated every year with the next round of unsuccessfuls but it is not all about me, someday i will draw...
Post by: julzzz on December 01, 2009, 10:18:29 PM
Post by: julzzz on December 01, 2009, 10:27:48 PM
Post by: funkster on December 02, 2009, 07:26:37 AM
I wouldn't mind if you could buy points either. Put a two point limit per year and make a point $50,this could only help the wdfw with added money they desperately need,best of both worlds :twocents:Please tell me you didn't say that! I'm actually quite surprised they haven't come up with this scheme during one of their "how do we screw the hunting public out of additional cash without actually providing additional hunting opportunity?" brainstorming sessions. And the additional revenue would go to the general fund, NOT the WDFW. You do know that, right? :bdid:
Yes I do know that. Even if the money went into the general fund it would get spread out and funneled back into fish and wildlife. See this is the problem,no one wants to support what we all enjoy. Then bitch about how the wdfw is so messed up.They don't have the funds or the man power to get the job done.
That's why simple things like only choosing 1 hunt choice,not choosing east or west side before special permits are drawn and being able to purchase points could only make the draw system better :twocents:
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 02, 2009, 03:37:37 PM
Post by: elksnout on December 02, 2009, 08:43:41 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 03, 2009, 05:25:13 AM
Post by: WSU on December 03, 2009, 08:53:41 AM
WDFW, I do not know what you are talking about with Oregon only rewarding older hunters. My son and myself draw a decent buck tags every third year over there as partners. I do not understand that statement. And what's wrong with us older guys getting those tags ?? Do the math, we do not have all that many years left as they do. We have paid our dues as they should and will. My boy is the best hunting partner I've ever been in the field with and I started him hunting when he was 10 years old. And if we are together he still gets first shot. And when the day arrives we are hunting on those bull permits he'll still get first crack. That's how it's supposed to be.
The difference isn't going to be obvious in tags that you can draw every 3 years. You would draw those tags without the max points system. The difference is the long shot tags, such as Wenaha bull tags. If your son started putting in now, he would never draw. No chance. WDFW and I differ in that we don't think this is right. The fact that you are older shouldn't preclude the younger generation from having any chance at going on the most premier hunts. You think the younger generation should be precluded from ever drawing the tag so that you can draw the tag, while WDFW and I don't.
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 03, 2009, 09:05:45 AM
Post by: elksnout on December 03, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 03, 2009, 06:40:47 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 03, 2009, 07:17:33 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2009, 07:26:05 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 03, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
If you have one point now, when you apply again you will gain 1 more point, so you will go into the drawing with two. Then that is squared, so your name will go in the hat 4 times.
Wow... Thanks... Never knew that.. So my odds are better already!!!! :) Think I'll put in for antlerless....
Post by: Ripper on December 03, 2009, 09:14:11 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 03, 2009, 10:07:32 PM
It took me 5 points just to get drawn for a Coweeman cow tag! Hope I get one, it'll be my first. :drool:
Good luck!! I've gotten two cow tags.. 1 with no points.... The other with 1 point.... :dunno:
Post by: WSU on December 04, 2009, 08:37:34 AM
WSU. Where in hedouble hockey sticks do you see a statement from me about precluding the younger generation ? Good Lord. Read my last post better for crying out loud. Does it not sound like I have mentored my son { hey, the younger generation } and consider him above me for better opportunities ? And I've also mentored other young guns in the hunting world. I take great offense to your statement. I started this post by simply asking what points members on here have had when they have drawn these tags and of course it gets jacked all around, getting way off topic. I love this site, I really do. Seems like terrific folks, one and all and would be cool to someday meet all of you. But this feels like an effort in frustration for me on this one. I think from now on I will really think twice before I post and or respond. This sucks. >:( >:(
I poorly worded my post. I was not trying to state (as I did) that you don't care about the younger generation. I was simply trying to state that with guaranteed tag systems, the younger generation will get screwed and is guaranteed to not have the same opportunity. I was mainly referring to your statement "whats wrong with us older guys getting those tags." The thing that is wrong with it is that, in a max points system, it means the younger generation cannot get those tags and will not get those tags. I'm sure you and your son have a great time hunting, and we all wish more parents would be like you and get their kids out hunting with them. I apologize for poorly wording my post and for offending you. :sry:
Post by: SGM R on December 12, 2009, 09:33:20 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 12, 2009, 09:55:48 PM
Funny thing was I was just trying to get another preference point that year..... Still trying for it again!