Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 07:12:00 PM
Exactly. This Cascade region BT/MD debate is getting old. That's a great deer. Well done.
well this will get thread jacked pretty quick, i agree but it is a important distinction to make between the two. i hunt pure blacktails and the big buck i shot this year is no comparison to a big buck like hoggsniper's but when measured against other blacktails he's a hog. it all really matters very little how one deer stacks up to another but theres a difference between the species.
Thanks for seeing the point as well. In other States, a Cascade blacktail doesn't necessarily imply a dividing line between species, it's merely a blacktail harvested in the Cascades. In Washington a Cascade blacktail is limited to a very distinct area on the west slopes of the Cascades in both the DFW and record book definitions. There is no comparison to a "bench leg", "bench buck" or whatever you want to call those cross breeds, anything outside of that boundary by definition in this State is not a Cascade blacktail.
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 07:31:46 PM
Post by: BENCHLEG on December 10, 2009, 07:35:46 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 07:37:03 PM
Mike
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 07:38:32 PM
Well I can see that there's no changing your point of view on this subject but I know that the deer I shot this year was a big Blacktail.It was NOT a Muledeer no matter what the naysayers claim.
Mike
who are you talking to? little paranoid huh?
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 07:42:18 PM
Well I can see that there's no changing your point of view on this subject but I know that the deer I shot this year was a big Blacktail.It was NOT a Muledeer no matter what the naysayers claim.
Mike
who are you talking to? little paranoid huh?
Talking to you,I'm not paranoid just telling you my thoughts.
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 07:45:08 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 10, 2009, 07:46:52 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 10, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
Well I can see that there's no changing your point of view on this subject but I know that the deer I shot this year was a big Blacktail.It was NOT a Muledeer no matter what the naysayers claim.
Mike
Are you serious? Post up another pic, with your bucks ass like on BTC. As I said before, make sure you show that pic to the offical scorer too.
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 07:48:24 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 10, 2009, 07:54:13 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi695.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv313%2F257WbyMag%2F101_0912XX.jpg&hash=b6308956e490860f2dbbf34781101a0a79333f5b)
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 07:56:58 PM
Post by: Kain on December 10, 2009, 07:58:05 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 07:58:49 PM
Mike
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 10, 2009, 08:00:23 PM
that would be a mule deer
I knew you'd know. grin...
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 08:04:51 PM
that would be a mule deer
I knew you'd know. grin...
Ive always been pretty good at discerning deer species from each other. my buddy thought he could get me one time when he said hey what kind of deer is this. he was a little surprised when after i looked at the pic i handed it back to him and said sitka blacktail. apperantly i cant tell a bench leg when i see one tho :dunno: ;)
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 08:11:10 PM
Post by: Kain on December 10, 2009, 08:20:06 PM
I will confess it is a little insulting for us predominantly blacktail guys when someone doesn't recognize the difference, to be honest.
Exactly.
Post by: MagKarl on December 10, 2009, 08:25:36 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 08:31:14 PM
Mike
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 08:41:01 PM
"Even though Blacktails hunters readily agree that there are areas well known for producing large Muledeer bucks, such as the Paunsaguant, the "Arizona strip" and the "Grande Mesa" in Colorado. Many have a hard time believing the same holds true for the Columbian Blacktail. Often saying that the Blacktails that come out of northern California and southern Oregon are not true Columbian's, but rather a muley cross. Their reasoning is simply? They can't be Blacktails because they have never seen a buck that size in their hunting area. The truth of the matter is, the rule of good genetics and nutrition, also applies to the Blacktail"
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 08:46:16 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,37253.150.html
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 10, 2009, 08:46:53 PM
Post by: bucklucky on December 10, 2009, 08:47:46 PM
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 10, 2009, 08:50:07 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 08:51:14 PM
and the argument that wdfw classifies it as a blacktail doesnt work either
oooo....snap
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 08:54:25 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 08:56:02 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 08:57:23 PM
Taken from btc.com
"Even though Blacktails hunters readily agree that there are areas well known for producing large Muledeer bucks, such as the Paunsaguant, the "Arizona strip" and the "Grande Mesa" in Colorado. Many have a hard time believing the same holds true for the Columbian Blacktail. Often saying that the Blacktails that come out of northern California and southern Oregon are not true Columbian's, but rather a muley cross. Their reasoning is simply? They can't be Blacktails because they have never seen a buck that size in their hunting area. The truth of the matter is, the rule of good genetics and nutrition, also applies to the Blacktail"
AAHH, now your opening a big can of worms. Being a member of BTC, your talking about a Site with Oregon and Northern CA origins, of course they will say that :). Good guys all of them, but let's not confuse CA and Oregon deer with Washington.
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 08:57:40 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 08:58:37 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 09:00:28 PM
I think we need a DNA test.
Call in Ed Troyer :chuckle:.
Post by: bucklucky on December 10, 2009, 09:01:45 PM
Now that would be interesting to see a DNA test. I wonder if they can tell what percentage muley vs blacktail it does have in its DNA or if that is even possible to find out.
He looks to have a real faint brown stripe down the tail which would tell me that he does have some blacktail in him but looks more like those mulies I hhunt in the alpine that are like that. Im going to say 85% Mulie, 15% blacktail. So I guess that makes him a cross, or a cascade blacktail :chuckle: I guess Im wrong :'(
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 10, 2009, 09:02:26 PM
on another note not to pick at elkstuffers buck as well but i wonder if he has a tail pic of his buck id be willing to bet since im sure it was taken in the yak area where it is supposed to be all muleys that his buck has more blacktail characteristics than trackers buck
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 10, 2009, 09:05:14 PM
Post by: bucklucky on December 10, 2009, 09:05:40 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:06:38 PM
Mike
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 10, 2009, 09:07:28 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:09:58 PM
I am a big blacktail hunter as I live on the west side.I also know what a mule deer is and what a whitetail is.You shouldn't feel insulted for not recognizing my blacktail as a blacktail. :chuckle:
Mike
re thinking this one yet?
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 09:12:21 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:13:33 PM
Her's what a blacktail looks like.. Not a white tail, with a black tip, and a white ass.
What part of my post have you not read? I know what a Blacktail is as I have taken over 15 in my hunting on the west side,which is where I took my buck this year.
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 10, 2009, 09:13:44 PM
Track-er, you just took Dmans spot , after his "bobcat" picture he posted a while back :chuckle: And the ripping he took, I think it made 30 pages :yike:Thanks for diverting attention :peep:
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 10, 2009, 09:16:45 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:16:51 PM
Mike
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:17:07 PM
Her's what a blacktail looks like.. Not a white tail, with a black tip, and a white ass.
What part of my post have you not read? I know what a Blacktail is as I have taken over 15 in my hunting on the west side,which is where I took my buck this year.
i would say your having a hard time all the suddon "knowing what a blacktail is"
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:20:21 PM
Post by: Kain on December 10, 2009, 09:23:18 PM
Post by: washelkhntr on December 10, 2009, 09:28:32 PM
There, now we wont have to debate on what kind of deer it is anymore.
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:29:24 PM
I think this is where the problem comes in. At the very least the deer is a hybrid and more muley than blacktail. So to call it a blacktail is what causes blacktail hunters to bristle. It is a great buck no matter what it is though. I would be very happy with it.
I am happy with it.
Thank You,Mike
Post by: andrew_12gauge on December 10, 2009, 09:31:46 PM
check out this giant black bear my buddy shot
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:35:38 PM
Mike
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 09:36:02 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:37:31 PM
I think that must be a record albino Black bear as I have never seen one that big before.
Mike
yeah you can tell its a black bear because it was shot south of the north pole
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:39:15 PM
Mike
Post by: washelkhntr on December 10, 2009, 09:39:35 PM
Post by: PolarBear on December 10, 2009, 09:39:41 PM
check out this giant black bear my buddy shotDaddy!!!! :(
I'm sorry but there is no doubt that buck is almost all if not all muley. I don't care where it was shot the ass and tail are dead giveaways.
Post by: Kain on December 10, 2009, 09:41:48 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:42:11 PM
Hey whats up mike? Hows sky? I see you're still getting a beating from all these experts on here! Reading some of these comments on here makes me :chuckle:. All this :'( is why I'm glad I live on the east side where where its muley or whitetail!
Are we having fun yet?
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 09:44:06 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:45:35 PM
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 09:48:39 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:49:34 PM
Its all good! You know as well as I do its the nature of the business. This issue with your buck just won't die huh? When is the 60 days up? End of the month?
he's kinda the one that brought it up. think he likes the attention :dunno:
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 09:53:27 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 09:54:33 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on December 10, 2009, 09:54:43 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 10, 2009, 09:56:13 PM
Obama is half white and he qualifies as the first black president... so Trackers buck, even if it has some mule deer blood in it, is a black tail. :chuckle: I'm not sure why some people are so worked up over it... jealousy perhaps? :dunno:
Thank You
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 09:57:13 PM
Post by: actionshooter on December 10, 2009, 09:58:44 PM
But really, what do I know. :dunno: :chuckle:
I really like the obama comparison though :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on December 10, 2009, 10:00:04 PM
:dunno:
i know whitetails real good.
everybody's got to be a friggin expert all the time.
:bash:
Post by: actionshooter on December 10, 2009, 10:04:50 PM
if i killed a blacktail where Mike killed his blacktail i'd call it a blacktail too.I don't know where he killed it and I don't care if it was standing in salt water, that thing is a muley cross.
:dunno:
i know whitetails real good.
everybody's got to be a friggin expert all the time.
:bash:
Don't get me wrong, its a dandy buck and I would have busted it in a second.
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 10:05:58 PM
if i killed a blacktail where Mike killed his blacktail i'd call it a blacktail too.
:dunno:
i know whitetails real good.
everybody's got to be a friggin expert all the time.
:bash:
Exactly! What these guys fail to realize is there are more than 1 subspecies of blacktails!
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 10:09:42 PM
I looked at page 1 and you're the one that started to gripe :o. The area he shot it in is considered a cascade blacktail end of story!
you bet buddy, and that bear was shot south of the north pole so i dont care what anybody says thats a book black bear
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 10:12:15 PM
I looked at page 1 and you're the one that started to gripe :o. The area he shot it in is considered a cascade blacktail end of story!
you bet buddy, and that bear was shot south of the north pole so i dont care what anybody says thats a book black bear
Whatever you say! Youre the expert right :rolleyes:!
Post by: washelkhntr on December 10, 2009, 10:15:21 PM
Post by: PolarBear on December 10, 2009, 10:19:24 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 10, 2009, 10:20:40 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 10:21:43 PM
Who cares what it is. It is a dandy buck for sure, but come on, get over it!
i think if you look at the first post from Dman this is the whole purpose of the thread. the fact that tracker wanted to throw his dog in the race was completely up to him
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 10, 2009, 10:24:37 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 10, 2009, 10:26:17 PM
Post by: Kain on December 10, 2009, 10:27:10 PM
Who cares what it is. It is a dandy buck for sure, but come on, get over it!
It sounds like everyone here cares what it is. :dunno: If no one cares, why is there a different name for the two sub-species. Everone can agree that they are very closely related but there is a difference and that is the point of this thread. It had nothing to do with any specific buck until Tracker brought it up but his buck is a prime example of why there is conflict on the subject. A muley buck (or mostly muley buck) crosses a line doesnt make it a BT. There has to be a line though.
Post by: PolarBear on December 10, 2009, 10:38:40 PM
I wouldn't call it bashing. People are just telling him what kind of deer he shot. He probably appreciates knowing it was actually a mule deer and not a blacktail. It apparently was just lost and migrated the wrong way.:yeah:
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 10:38:49 PM
Oh yeah I forgot you're the expert my bad! :bash: It's been fun chatting with you.
:hello:
Post by: PolarBear on December 10, 2009, 10:44:59 PM
Post by: G.R.K on December 10, 2009, 10:50:08 PM
Oh yeah I forgot you're the expert my bad! :bash: It's been fun chatting with you.
:hello:
Team Geico is very vocal tonight,LAFFIN
Post by: M_ray on December 10, 2009, 10:50:18 PM
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 10:52:33 PM
I just hope that it was open for mule deer so he doesn't get in trouble!
your gettung some pretty good ones in tonight polar :chuckle:
Post by: G.R.K on December 10, 2009, 11:02:14 PM
I just hope that it was open for mule deer so he doesn't get in trouble!
I hope Littlebuff had benchleg tag for his buck :chuckle: No mulies in Kapowsin :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: littlebuf on December 10, 2009, 11:08:53 PM
Post by: G.R.K on December 10, 2009, 11:12:13 PM
Post by: G.R.K on December 10, 2009, 11:14:40 PM
Post by: Track-er on December 11, 2009, 03:41:36 AM
might as well..... i think where guys really get there panties in a bunch is when i guy shoots what he knows is a benchleg or a mulie and then calls it a blacktail to make it sound super impressive when really its a decent mule deer. what really gets me is the "blacktails" in northern cali and southern Oregon that get put in the same category as what we hunt here on the west side. those things are mulies
So if I read your statement correctly my buck is in fact a Blacktail.It was taken on the west side.
Mike
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 11, 2009, 07:30:43 AM
My primary gripe has always been with the State on this deal. The Cascade crest area, particularly going down the southern end of the Cascades in Washington have always caused DFW a lot of confusion. They keep switching boundaries and seasons and definitions and I think it leads to a lot of frustration, no blacktail boundary should be east of the crest, as it is now down near Goldendale, bottom line is hunters down there monopolize the Columbian/ Cascade books and it's really not right, clearly the average "blacktail" in that area is more muley. Set the line if frigging stone and leave it for 100 years and stop messing around with it. My only other gripe regarding this subject are guys hunting clearly outside boundaries where they shouldn't be, but that applies to any season, so I guess that points not worth stating.
Post by: Red Dawg on December 11, 2009, 07:41:35 AM
Post by: PolarBear on December 11, 2009, 07:42:20 AM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 11, 2009, 07:50:26 AM
I think what the difference is between goldendale area bucks more than anything is habitat. Its way better than the wet side of the mountains. I know the area well and I have seen mule deer on a couple of occasions but to say that the majority of the population has mule deer genes is not right. I agree that they cannot be called blacktail but the deer in the area are definitely more blacktail than muledeer. That changes drastically as a whole when you start moving east and north of 388. I dont really care what they called because a big buck is a big buck.
You will never convince me that Kapowsin industrial timberlands @ 45 deer per square mile confirmed by biologist's is less productive habitat than the Goldendale area, I disagree. I stand by my comment, bucks in that southern area are 50/50 at best. You encounter the exact same habitat as the Goldendale area all the way nearly to southern California, where those same deer are called mule deer, yet the coastal mountain range runs all the way to that point, which is MY point.
Post by: FullDraw on December 11, 2009, 11:26:15 AM
Post by: littlebuf on December 11, 2009, 11:32:42 AM
might as well..... i think where guys really get there panties in a bunch is when i guy shoots what he knows is a benchleg or a mulie and then calls it a blacktail to make it sound super impressive when really its a decent mule deer. what really gets me is the "blacktails" in northern cali and southern Oregon that get put in the same category as what we hunt here on the west side. those things are mulies
So if I read your statement correctly my buck is in fact a Blacktail.It was taken on the west side.
Mike
no dude you still dont get it. a line in the sand doesn't make a species. if i put a moose on this side of the mountains would it be a elk? or would a white tail then be a blacktail? what ever you need to tell your self to make you feel like super hunter go ahead, by the way nice mule deer
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 11, 2009, 11:38:57 AM
Post by: rasbo on December 11, 2009, 01:24:16 PM
Post by: singleshot12 on December 11, 2009, 03:13:11 PM
might as well..... i think where guys really get there panties in a bunch is when i guy shoots what he knows is a benchleg or a mulie and then calls it a blacktail to make it sound super impressive when really its a decent mule deer. what really gets me is the "blacktails" in northern cali and southern Oregon that get put in the same category as what we hunt here on the west side. those things are mulies
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
I've always thought it was very disrespectful to true northern blacktails to classify those wormy southern inbred deer as blacktail.
Sure hope that changes some day.
Post by: 270Shooter on December 11, 2009, 03:29:58 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on December 11, 2009, 03:32:49 PM
Post by: PolarBear on December 11, 2009, 03:36:13 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on December 11, 2009, 03:52:37 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on December 11, 2009, 04:17:07 PM
nice buck, couple pricks on the site you'll have to get used too. cascade blacktail means it could or does have some mulie in it right? so i dont get why this gets brought up
No, that is not what it means. Go to the Washington State record book if you can get a copy, it will tell you pretty much all you need to know. The only thing Cascade blacktail means in this State is a deer located within a set, clearly defined boundary that runs up to the cascade crest from the west side. We are getting way too wrapped up about individual deer on this one, that is not what this is about, it's about clarifying the definition of Cascade blacktail. I don't even recall that Tracker labeled his deer a Cascade blacktail :dunno:. I'm not talking about blacktail in general, there are Columbians and Western blacktail as well in the State, all of which reside in the Cascades, not the same thing and a different boundary altogether.
Post by: KillBilly on December 11, 2009, 08:55:09 PM