Post by: SkookumHntr on January 08, 2010, 02:24:02 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 08, 2010, 02:25:54 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 08, 2010, 02:33:10 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 08, 2010, 02:34:39 PM
I can totally see them separating out the antlered draw from the antlerless draw....the odds on the antlered stuff will skyrocket....ugh
All for the almighty dollar..someone needs to pimp slap them for stealing our money. >:(
Post by: boneaddict on January 08, 2010, 02:42:28 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 08, 2010, 02:47:14 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 08, 2010, 02:49:26 PM
Post by: grousetracker on January 08, 2010, 02:57:05 PM
Post by: Viszla on January 08, 2010, 03:04:18 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 08, 2010, 03:15:39 PM
Bag limit would remain one but if a person drew an antlerless as well as a buck/bull tag they could decide what one to use to fill their limit of 1.
Post by: boneaddict on January 08, 2010, 03:20:10 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 08, 2010, 03:20:31 PM
I'd like to see the article. When I talked to DAve last month it sounded like buck and bull quality hunts would be limited to 2 choices, antlerless would remain at 4 as well as OIL. He did say the anterless drawing would be seperated from the quality buck/bull drawings so a guy could put in for both, but it would cost him twice, $5 per application.Its in that sportsmans magazine that is by the cycle traders and stuff. Page 58
Bag limit would remain one but if a person drew an antlerless as well as a buck/bull tag they could decide what one to use to fill their limit of 1.
Post by: villageidiot on January 08, 2010, 07:15:41 PM
Post by: winshooter88 on January 09, 2010, 01:21:46 AM
Buck and doe tags will be split up into different pools and so will bulls and cows. Possibly trophy bucks and bulls, but i don't remember for sure. No one will lose any of their existing deer or elk points as you get credit for all your points for deer on all the permit applications that you purchase. And for all your elk points on all elk permit applications that you purchase. This was discussed at the last Game Management Advisory Council meeting and will have to be approved by the game commission before going into effect.
Yes it is mostly a money move in my opinion.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on January 09, 2010, 09:10:08 AM
Post by: Aneoakleaf on January 09, 2010, 09:19:31 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 09, 2010, 09:23:46 AM
Post by: high country on January 09, 2010, 09:37:17 AM
am I seeing this wrong?
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 09, 2010, 09:49:36 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 10:24:44 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 09, 2010, 10:54:21 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 09, 2010, 10:59:42 AM
Limiting choices wouldn't always increase odds. It would increase for some permits, and decrease odds for other permits. There would still be the same number of permits and the same number of applicants, so overall the odds would stay the same. That's the way I see it anyway.-Look at the draw summaries on the hunts you apply for, you will see how many tags get drawn as 3rd, 4th choices. Then you will understand how it will affect your hunts you apply for. The hunts I apply for get drawn 3rd and 4th choice all the time, Limiting choices will increase odds period! Giving 8 choices and being able to draw both Bull and cow permit both, that would be a complete disaster for are system!
Post by: Lowedog on January 09, 2010, 11:03:42 AM
Post by: ThePascoKid on January 09, 2010, 11:13:59 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 11:15:14 AM
Limiting choices wouldn't always increase odds. It would increase for some permits, and decrease odds for other permits. There would still be the same number of permits and the same number of applicants, so overall the odds would stay the same. That's the way I see it anyway.-Look at the draw summaries on the hunts you apply for, you will see how many tags get drawn as 3rd, 4th choices. Then you will understand how it will affect your hunts you apply for. The hunts I apply for get drawn 3rd and 4th choice all the time, Limiting choices will increase odds period!
I don't agree. Like I said, you will still have the same number of applicants and the same number of permits. Odds will not change, overall. Sure, some permits will end up with better odds, but other permits will be harder to draw. It all depends on how the change affects what people decide to apply for.
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 11:15:57 AM
I've never understood why we can't model ours after some of these other states that seem to have their *censored* together.
Our draw is modeled after Nevada's. And they seem to have their *censored* together.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 09, 2010, 12:58:35 PM
Your not understanding the point of less choices, limiting choices means every hunt will have less names in the hat for them. Makes people narrow down what to apply for and gives the points system a chance to actually work.I don't agree. Like I said, you will still have the same number of applicants and the same number of permits. Odds will not change, overall. Sure, some permits will end up with better odds, but other permits will be harder to draw. It all depends on how the change affects what people decide to apply for.Limiting choices wouldn't always increase odds. It would increase for some permits, and decrease odds for other permits. There would still be the same number of permits and the same number of applicants, so overall the odds would stay the same. That's the way I see it anyway.-Look at the draw summaries on the hunts you apply for, you will see how many tags get drawn as 3rd, 4th choices. Then you will understand how it will affect your hunts you apply for. The hunts I apply for get drawn 3rd and 4th choice all the time, Limiting choices will increase odds period!
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 09, 2010, 01:20:55 PM
If I were you guys I would just stop putting in for permit hunts. That will show them! Spread the word!
Even better, quit buying any licenses or hunting in Washington PERIOD! Show those greedy *censored*s and don't give them ONE THIN DIME.
I salute your integrity and admire your stand on principal; I am inferior, so will keep hunting in WA, but will be deeply ashamed way down inside.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 09, 2010, 01:34:25 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
Your not understanding the point of less choices, limiting choices means every hunt will have less names in the hat for them. Makes people narrow down what to apply for and gives the points system a chance to actually work.
But the point system does work. Just the way it is. As I said, sure some of the permits would have better odds, and some would not. It's just wishful thinking on your part if you think your odds will suddenly get better by decreasing the number of choices. I'm not against reducing the number of choices. I would be fine with it if we only had one choice. I just don't think that people would all of a sudden start drawing permits just because they only had one choice. Again, overall odds will remain the same. The only way to really increase the odds would be to increase the cost of applying. They could also have a 2 or 3 year waiting period after drawing a permit.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 09, 2010, 01:42:55 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 01:46:53 PM
If we had Idaho or New mexico's system our odds would be exponentially better...there would be less money for WDFW though.
I'd be all for that. I'm not sure how much money they would lose. People would still apply for special permits. But now that we've got the point system we're stuck with it.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 09, 2010, 01:52:12 PM
4 choices is 3 too many and we should have to pick one of the OIL. .
If these changes were made it will also mean less revenue and less WDFW employees and thats why it will never happen. WDFW is more concerned with its own jobs program than it is with quality big game hunting.
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 02:04:41 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 09, 2010, 02:11:04 PM
Without points lots of people will just skip washington every year especially if they like hunting out of state...and that = less in licence sales and better odds for those that really want the tags.
Ive bought all of my deer and elk tags several seasons and not used them just so I could build points...I would definitely skip on deer and elk if I wasn't trying to keep up with the Joneses..
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2010, 02:25:03 PM
Post by: alanger on January 09, 2010, 03:30:11 PM
Post by: high country on January 09, 2010, 03:48:30 PM
what will piss me off is if they change it to eliminate points and then return to a points system.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 09, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 09, 2010, 04:14:17 PM
Post by: high country on January 09, 2010, 04:16:29 PM
they won't get rid of the points, no worries on that. What we need to do something about is the OIL species to increase draw odds on those.
yeah, like once you draw one OIL tag you are grounded for 10 years on the others.......good idea ridge.
LOL
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2010, 05:26:14 PM
Without points lots of people will just skip washington every year especially if they like hunting out of state...and that = less in licence sales and better odds for those that really want the tags.
Won't be to many years down the road and folks will be skipping Washington altogether. Lets see a count of how many people plan on deer hunting in the Methow Valley this year? Forty some wolves have been discovered on the res, from what I heard the Indians will be taking care of them in the near future. The Methow has many wolves now and will have many more come spring and so will the rest of Washington. I guess hunters in Washington will be supporting the wdfw wolf program right up till it turns into one great big park. :(
Post by: bearhunter59 on January 10, 2010, 05:46:00 PM
And yes, it is about getting more money.
They are offering 15 more raffle deer tags this year. It is actually only 5 tags, but with this tag you will be able to take a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer; so they figure that is 15 possible tags.
It was unbeleiveable the amount of money they bring in from these raffle and auction tags.
Post by: boneaddict on January 10, 2010, 06:02:45 PM
deer rifle. There are 4 methow units available, or 3 or 4 chelan units. I have to choose which two I want. If I miss being drawn for those two, I am out where I could pull my 3rd or 4th try, thus increasing the chance for the applicants for those 3rd or 4th choices.
In some ways it does decrease your chance of a select unit as you have to put all your eggs in one basket. If that is what you are meaning. I am for 1st choice ONLY until all 1st choice applicants are done. That system ROCKS. It MAKES people put in for the unit they want, instead of 4 choices and then coming on here and saying I drew ALTA, can someone point out on a map where it IS.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 10, 2010, 06:24:19 PM
Limiting choices wouldn't always increase odds. It would increase for some permits, and decrease odds for other permits. There would still be the same number of permits and the same number of applicants, so overall the odds would stay the same. That's the way I see it anyway.-Look at the draw summaries on the hunts you apply for, you will see how many tags get drawn as 3rd, 4th choices. Then you will understand how it will affect your hunts you apply for. The hunts I apply for get drawn 3rd and 4th choice all the time, Limiting choices will increase odds period! Giving 8 choices and being able to draw both Bull and cow permit both, that would be a complete disaster for are system!
You are wrong.
It will only up the odds on certain hunts. Some peope only apply for one unit. It is their first and only choice.
Others are drawn for that unit as a 3rd or 4th choice. If there are only two choices they won't apply and that works in favor of those with only one or two choices.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 10, 2010, 06:37:53 PM
I was at the GMAC meeting last month when Dave Ware briefed them on the permit change. Essentially, you will have 4 anter choices and 4 anterless choices, and earn/loose points separately. Meaning if you get drawn for an anterless hunt, you don't loose all the points you have accumulated on the anter permits.That is just unbelievable! The worst draw system in the country looks like its going to get way worse! I cant believe it :bash:
And yes, it is about getting more money.
They are offering 15 more raffle deer tags this year. It is actually only 5 tags, but with this tag you will be able to take a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer; so they figure that is 15 possible tags.
It was unbeleiveable the amount of money they bring in from these raffle and auction tags.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 10, 2010, 07:03:26 PM
I'm trying to see what you are saying Bobcat, but I don't. When limited, it makes people be more selective for what they choose. Say for elk........there are 4 blues tags available rifle rut. I choose two of them, not all 4. My name is out of the running for the 3rd and 4th tag.
deer rifle. There are 4 methow units available, or 3 or 4 chelan units. I have to choose which two I want. If I miss being drawn for those two, I am out where I could pull my 3rd or 4th try, thus increasing the chance for the applicants for those 3rd or 4th choices.
In some ways it does decrease your chance of a select unit as you have to put all your eggs in one basket. If that is what you are meaning. I am for 1st choice ONLY until all 1st choice applicants are done. That system ROCKS. It MAKES people put in for the unit they want, instead of 4 choices and then coming on here and saying I drew ALTA, can someone point out on a map where it IS.
Here is what I saw, first hand, over the years.
The Quinault bull hunt has had 5 permits for many years. Used to be rifle guys in with the general archery season in Sept.
You applied for a permit and if you weren't drawn you missed out on the first few days of the season. There were about 80 applicants every year.
Up the choices to 4 and immediately the the applicants went up over 350 for the same 5 permits and eventually the hunt was moved to October.
When the unit went to AHE the applicant total went down about 80 again. Now after a few years (and losing the Margaret AHE permit) the number of applicants is over 150.
It is not a big bull unit per say so most people put it as a third or fourth choice "hail mary" bull hunt. And many get it. Beating out those who only apply for that unit. Over the years I have seen many of the permits go to third or fourth choices and seen those same people online in a panic because they put in "for something to do".
If one third of the people want it as a third or fourth choice and F&G change it to two choices my odds go from 1 in 30 to 1 in 20. That is huge.
Make the people choose and some unit odds will go up and others will decrease.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 10, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
I was at the GMAC meeting last month when Dave Ware briefed them on the permit change. Essentially, you will have 4 anter choices and 4 anterless choices, and earn/loose points separately. Meaning if you get drawn for an anterless hunt, you don't loose all the points you have accumulated on the anter permits.Crap! :bash:
And yes, it is about getting more money.
They are offering 15 more raffle deer tags this year. It is actually only 5 tags, but with this tag you will be able to take a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer; so they figure that is 15 possible tags.
It was unbeleiveable the amount of money they bring in from these raffle and auction tags.
So now my $5 deer permit application will cost me $10 (if they don't raise the price) if I want to apply for antlered and antlerless hunts?
What if I get drawn for both? I am sure it would be my choice which to fill (but not both) so now there will be less permits available for other applicants?
Where do my current points go? Do I get to appoint them or do they get split between the two?
Not expecting answers. Just venting.
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2010, 07:40:04 PM
I'm trying to see what you are saying Bobcat, but I don't. When limited, it makes people be more selective for what they choose. Say for elk........there are 4 blues tags available rifle rut. I choose two of them, not all 4. My name is out of the running for the 3rd and 4th tag.
deer rifle. There are 4 methow units available, or 3 or 4 chelan units. I have to choose which two I want. If I miss being drawn for those two, I am out where I could pull my 3rd or 4th try, thus increasing the chance for the applicants for those 3rd or 4th choices.
In some ways it does decrease your chance of a select unit as you have to put all your eggs in one basket. If that is what you are meaning. I am for 1st choice ONLY until all 1st choice applicants are done. That system ROCKS. It MAKES people put in for the unit they want, instead of 4 choices and then coming on here and saying I drew ALTA, can someone point out on a map where it IS.
What I'm saying is that overall odds should stay the same, no matter how many choices on the application. Look at it this way. There was 48,274 people who applied for a special elk permit last year. There were 6,946 special permits issued. Odds would be about 1 in 7, meaning that 1 out of 7 people that applied for an elk permit was successful in drawing one. All I am saying, basically, is that if the number of permits and the number of people applying stays the same, the overall odds of 1 in 7 should stay the same.
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2010, 07:50:03 PM
What if I get drawn for both? I am sure it would be my choice which to fill (but not both) so now there will be less permits available for other applicants?
In the past they have had doe tags available, that if you were drawn you could purchase a second deer tag to use with that doe tag. I think that may be the reason behind having the two different pools. They weren't getting enough applicants for these second tag doe permits because people didn't want to use their points on a doe tag. Now that you don't have to use your points that you've been saving up for a buck tag, applying for these doe tags could be a good option. Only thing is I'm not sure how many they'll have, if any, because it seems most of them were in the NE part of the state, and I think the last couple of winters have taken care of any excess deer that may have been present over there.
Post by: Viszla on January 10, 2010, 08:01:24 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2010, 08:05:08 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 10, 2010, 08:12:00 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 10, 2010, 08:12:40 PM
Quote
If they needed more money they could just raise license and tag fees.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 10, 2010, 08:20:34 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2010, 08:22:12 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 10, 2010, 08:30:27 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 10, 2010, 10:10:45 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 11, 2010, 10:20:49 AM
I guess it depends how you want to look at the figures. I see x amount of hats with 4 names in them and I see the same amount hats with two choices or names in them. To me that would most likely increase my odds. Think of elk alone. Do you put your name in the hat with one choice only (blues tag) for that monster bull, or do you put it in there, in the next blues tag, one in the clock and one in the Yakima.Thats exactly how I see it too bone, pretty odvious to me, less names in the hat means better draw odds! I dont see how thats hard to understand, sure some hunts wont change much and it makes people really decide what they want!
Post by: Lowedog on January 11, 2010, 10:23:34 AM
If I were you guys I would just stop putting in for permit hunts. That will show them! Spread the word!
Even better, quit buying any licenses or hunting in Washington PERIOD! Show those greedy *censored*s and don't give them ONE THIN DIME.
I salute your integrity and admire your stand on principal; I am inferior, so will keep hunting in WA, but will be deeply ashamed way down inside.
DOUBLELUNG, I too am inferior so I will keep hunting and applying in WA. But the rest of you, Please stop applying for permit hunts or better yet stop hunting in WA all together like DOUBLELUNG said.
You have to make a stand and show them you won't take it anymore!!! Spread the word!!!!
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
I guess it depends how you want to look at the figures. I see x amount of hats with 4 names in them and I see the same amount hats with two choices or names in them. To me that would most likely increase my odds. Think of elk alone. Do you put your name in the hat with one choice only (blues tag) for that monster bull, or do you put it in there, in the next blues tag, one in the clock and one in the Yakima.Thats exactly how I see it too bone, pretty odvious to me, less names in the hat means better draw odds! I dont see how thats hard to understand, sure some hunts wont change much and it makes people really decide what they want!
But it wouldn't be less names in the hat. The real popular permits like Desert and Entiat mule deer could possibly become much more difficult to draw if choices were reduced, as many people might then only apply for the top hunts. It's obvious to me that some permits would become easier to draw, while others became more difficult. Chaning the number of choices wouldn't necessarily make the draw "better" or more fair, it would just make it different.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 11, 2010, 11:29:12 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2010, 11:50:15 AM
The thing is you don't know if that 5000 number will go down. Maybe all those people will still choose Entiat as #1 choice.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 11, 2010, 12:23:15 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2010, 12:40:46 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 11, 2010, 12:42:34 PM
Post by: Curly on January 11, 2010, 12:43:03 PM
Post by: turkeydancer on January 11, 2010, 12:46:04 PM
I can remember when you bought your $5 hunting license and you were allowed to go get a bull, a buck, etc and there were no tags or permits to buy and you hunted anywhere in the state you wanted ... and you could hunt with a bow in September, gun in Oct, muzzleloader in Nov, and bow again in Dec/Jan. And there were general either sex late seasons open for everyone to boot.
:bash:
Then you had to start buying tags for the species you wanted to hunt, and if you also wanted to use a bow and/or muzzleloaders you had to buy a special permit to use those addition weapons.
And then they started making you choose what weapon, choose what side of the state to hunt, get special permits, etc. And if there were say 125 permits for a hunt/unit, you put in for that one hunt and only that hunt (no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choices). I also remember that it wasn't split 10 ways to Sunday (ie: 25 youth, 25 over 65, 25 disabled, 25 AHE, 25 regular, etc) and everyone had an equal chance each year no matter what (nor how many points you had accumulated).
:dunno:
And here's the capper ... there were lots more hunters and lots more game for those hunters. Is WDFW making it better for us? Do they have a clue as what to do for the hunter to improve the opportunties? I sometimes wonder ... at least I can afford the time and money to go to other states now if I so choose.
:twocents:
Thanks WDFW !!!!
Post by: Lowedog on January 11, 2010, 01:39:03 PM
:yike:
I can remember when you bought your $5 hunting license and you were allowed to go get a bull, a buck, etc and there were no tags or permits to buy and you hunted anywhere in the state you wanted ... and you could hunt with a bow in September, gun in Oct, muzzleloader in Nov, and bow again in Dec/Jan. And there were general either sex late seasons open for everyone to boot.
:bash:
Then you had to start buying tags for the species you wanted to hunt, and if you also wanted to use a bow and/or muzzleloaders you had to buy a special permit to use those addition weapons.
And then they started making you choose what weapon, choose what side of the state to hunt, get special permits, etc. And if there were say 125 permits for a hunt/unit, you put in for that one hunt and only that hunt (no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choices). I also remember that it wasn't split 10 ways to Sunday (ie: 25 youth, 25 over 65, 25 disabled, 25 AHE, 25 regular, etc) and everyone had an equal chance each year no matter what (nor how many points you had accumulated).
:dunno:
And here's the capper ... there were lots more hunters and lots more game for those hunters. Is WDFW making it better for us? Do they have a clue as what to do for the hunter to improve the opportunties? I sometimes wonder ... at least I can afford the time and money to go to other states now if I so choose.
:twocents:
Thanks WDFW !!!!
Wow!! You are really old!!!!! :yike:
Post by: turkeydancer on January 11, 2010, 02:45:49 PM
:chuckle:
Been hunting here since I was a wee lad (44+ years) ... :bdid:
... mostly with good success ... however long enough to see it tons better !!!
Post by: boneaddict on January 11, 2010, 03:01:07 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 11, 2010, 03:02:04 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2010, 03:06:11 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 11, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
If there were a total of 15 hats and you had 4 names to put into one of those hats, statistically you'd be more likely to have a name put into one of your hats. :)
This is especially true if you are already seeking one unit to hunt.
Post by: bobcat on January 11, 2010, 03:22:31 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 11, 2010, 05:08:04 PM
But boneaddict, we don't know what people would do if they were only allowed 1 or 2 choices. It could be that if people only had 1 choice, they wouldn't apply for the Entiat, knowing it is one of the most popular mule deer permits, and maybe the majority would then only apply for your Methow permits, making your odds worse. That's all I've been saying all along, is we don't know how odds would change for each permit. Some would be better odds, some worse. But overall, odds would stay exactly the same.
I agree. We don't know what others will apply for, but we do know that some units will recieve less applicants. Those units could change year by year depending on harvest statistics.
Like I said before, I saw a units applicants more then triple the year they went to 4 choices.
Post by: Lowedog on January 11, 2010, 07:32:50 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 12, 2010, 07:28:09 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 12, 2010, 07:30:52 PM