Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 01:19:05 PM
:bdid: :bdid: :bdid:
CaChing!
REad all about on the WDFW website.
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 01:20:04 PM
Frequently asked questions
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is proposing changes in the way random drawings are conducted for special-hunt permits, which give successful applicants hunting options beyond those authorized by a general hunting license. If approved by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission this April, these changes would take effect prior to the special-hunt drawings for the 2010 hunting season.
Why is WDFW proposing changes in the special hunt permitting system?
Because of the conditions and restrictions associated with various hunt choices, hunters have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the current system works. Many hunters surveyed have complained that the odds of securing a permit for especially popular hunts are extremely low. Others say they would like to apply for antlerless permits, but don’t want to lose the points they are saving for popular buck and bull permits.
These complaints have merit. Under the current system, all applications for special deer permits are randomly drawn from the same pool, each weighted according to the number of points the applicant has accumulated from past drawings. The computer calculates these points and registers the hunter’s preferences (e.g. “buck,” “second antlerless”), but ultimately draws successful applications for all special deer hunts from the same pool. The same is true, under the current system, for elk permits.
This “pooling” approach also creates problems for WDFW. Errors and delays in permit drawings are far more likely under a system that requires the computer to cross-reference so many applications at once. Also, if hunters are dissatisfied with the results of special-permit drawings, they are less likely to apply in the future, resulting in lost revenue for WDFW.
How does the department propose to change the current system?
To address these issues, WDFW proposes to require separate applications for specific types of deer,elk, big horn sheep, moose, and cougar permits and conduct separate drawings in each category. Specifically, hunters may purchase and submit separate applications for a variety of categories, to include: 1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits. WDFW would then conduct a separate drawing for permits in each category.
This approach has several advantages over the current system, which pools all applications for deer permits and for elk permits. First, it would reduce the number of applicants in each drawing, thereby potentially improving hunters’ odds of being selected for hunts they prefer. Those who are interested in more than one kind of hunt would have a chance of being drawn for each of them.
Department managers are hopeful that these improvements will result in greater customer satisfaction and increase applications for special hunting permits. It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property.
What happens to the points hunters have accumulated if these changes are made?
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
Do hunters lose all of their deer points if drawn for one of the deer categories?
No, hunters will accrue and lose points within an individual category. For example, if a hunter is drawn for an antlerless permit, they would lose their points in the antlerless category, but retain them in all other deer categories.
What happens if I draw more than one permit for the same species?
Unless one of those permits is for a second antlerless deer tag, a hunter would be restricted to harvesting one animal. Hunters who draw more than one permit would be able to choose which hunt or hunts to participate in, but would have to stop hunting once they harvest an animal.
When does WDFW plan to put these changes into effect?
The department is proposing to put the new system into effect in time for the 2010 hunting seasons. Wildlife staff first briefed the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission on the proposal during a public meeting in March 2009. We have been working to modify the computerized drawing system in preparation for permit application sales in April 2010. The commission is scheduled to take public comments in advance of their March 11-12 meeting and take action on the permit proposals at the April 9-10 meeting. The specific proposals will be available for comment in early February.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:26:43 PM
Jack POT........ :lol4: :lol4: :lol4: :lol4:
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 01:29:04 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:30:33 PM
Post by: jackelope on January 15, 2010, 01:30:52 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:33:45 PM
Buck? vs quality buck???
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:36:26 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 01:37:36 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:39:06 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 01:39:14 PM
Post by: NWBREW on January 15, 2010, 01:39:26 PM
I too am loaded with points.
I do see that it will be harder to draw a bull permit or such but you will also have the opportunity to draw a cow tag while you wait and wait to draw a bull tag. :dunno: I don't know.....good and bad I geuss.
Post by: Bob33 on January 15, 2010, 01:47:32 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:49:32 PM
Statistically it means that people who are at the bottom end of the point pools will just get further and further behind because of the squaring of points.......... and for the folks that like doe tags and cow tags guess what?..There are now a ton of people ahead of you with 10+ points so get ready to start waiting :chuckle:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:51:15 PM
Can anyone post the link for this? Thanks.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
Post by: workstohunt on January 15, 2010, 01:55:02 PM
Post by: NWBREW on January 15, 2010, 01:57:09 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 01:59:05 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:01:44 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 02:02:15 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 02:03:07 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:03:50 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on January 15, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 15, 2010, 02:20:14 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:21:58 PM
It may be that the cow and doe permits will now be in a different "category" and everyone starts from scratch with their points in that category. In that case, it seems like it would be fair.
Thats not what it says and even if it was the case it still screws the meat hunters that have points.
Post by: Woodchuck on January 15, 2010, 02:28:01 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:30:08 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 02:37:03 PM
Post by: BIGBULLBALLS on January 15, 2010, 02:48:44 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 PM
I think the kicker on this one is the "quality hunt" application pool. If quality hunt means the top 10 elk/deer units in the state then great. If they made the quality hunt application cost $100 per year it would be great. Serrious applicants only
:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 02:51:37 PM
Post by: CP on January 15, 2010, 02:52:02 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:53:40 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 02:54:17 PM
Quote
If they made the quality hunt application cost $100 per year it would be great.
Why not, whats an additional $100 on top of the $400+ I paid for this state last year. :dunno:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 02:56:05 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on January 15, 2010, 02:57:34 PM
I certainly hope we're not missing something obvious here. But it sure seems like the max and near max point holders will take this right in the butt!
I may just flush my max goat, moose, deer and -2 from max elk points down the toilet.......
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 03:02:44 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 03:04:55 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 03:06:51 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 03:08:34 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 03:10:59 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 03:12:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 03:13:45 PM
Post by: CP on January 15, 2010, 03:15:04 PM
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
That would be nice but for some reason I'm not buying it.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 03:15:42 PM
I want to know WHO dreamed up this cockumayme Idea
I have a suspect...
(https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10069/BM.jpg)
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 03:16:22 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 03:16:45 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 03:18:00 PM
I missed this on my first read;
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
That would be nice but for some reason I'm not buying it.
Same here, I figured that was just put in there to reduce complaints.
Post by: NWBREW on January 15, 2010, 03:20:46 PM
. Another thing that sucks about this is that a person could draw a cow permit and a bull permit in the same year, and one of those will go to waste.
I hadn't thought about that. So if you were to draw a cow and bull permit.....they will both drop to zero the next year.
Post by: whacker1 on January 15, 2010, 03:25:03 PM
Which means $5 more person x 3 = or $15
or $5 more per person if x 5 if you use my math at $25 assuming that we apply for every application possible.
Seems like they took a complex system and added additional layers of complexity and frustration.
the only way this works is if there 8 - 10 pools and in the ones that overlap (deer for example) that you are only allowed to apply for one style of deer tag (buck or doe or quality) not all 3. However, this is not the way it was explained.
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 03:28:51 PM
I don't like the idea of a persons accrued points being across the board. Don't know what the logistics would be but wonder if they could make it so that you had to choose where your points were to go.
As for having a state wide elk tag I think that would make the quality hunts, especially east side, that much tougher to draw.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on January 15, 2010, 03:37:08 PM
Post by: whacker1 on January 15, 2010, 03:37:37 PM
Quote
Why wouldnt a meat hunter spend 5 more bucks for the chance to draw a trophy bull tag? I would if I was a meat hunter, and hell I would even apply for cow tags now that it dont effact my bull points.
Kind of what i was thinking. It won't be true of everybody, but it will for a lot of folks. Saving money from out of state tags to have an opportunity to fill the freezer? :dunno:
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 03:43:49 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 03:44:06 PM
Post by: bowtech721 on January 15, 2010, 03:50:13 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 03:52:04 PM
-Not a single traditional meat hunter will draw next year, with so many people with 10 plus pts in that pool now, why the hell wouldnt we fill are freezers, if I will have 15pts for meat hunts and it dont effact my Trophy Bull pts! And the regular meat hunters that draw every 3rd year or so my never draw again with so many names in the hat now. Unreal
Yeah, that's the part I don't like. Like I said earlier if they could make it where you had to choose where your points went it would even things out but then again not so many would buy both apps. ;)
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 03:55:49 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on January 15, 2010, 04:02:22 PM
Post by: sako223 on January 15, 2010, 04:07:29 PM
Another example of where they have come up with a plan and they will let us have input before they implement it anyway. That way when issues arise they can claim public input. Nothing new about the procedure.
A good reason for us to show up in person and in numbers to voice opinions,
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 04:09:47 PM
Take a weighted point system that doesn't work as claimed and multiply it times 8. It's a political mathematics win. Sorta like Incest at WDFWTry to explain that to bobcat :chuckle:
Another example of where they have come up with a plan and they will let us have input before they implement it anyway. That way when issues arise they can claim public input. Nothing new about the procedure.
A good reason for us to show up in person and in numbers to voice opinions,
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 04:11:25 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 04:17:16 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 15, 2010, 04:38:44 PM
Post by: Skillet on January 15, 2010, 05:27:26 PM
I think you know what I mean. They are oiling the squeaky wheel - people who complained they couldn't draw a cow without having to waste the bull points. Had the dep't not found a way to make a money grab while appearing to "listen" to us hunters, we would be seeing the familiar finger we are used to getting from them. That is what the WDFW is getting after - the Benjamins. Not to solve some problem of draw odds. They are not even trying to fix that - I'm very sure it was well understood that the draw odds are going to get very long for everybody now. They are fixing the OTHER problem - cash flow. That's it. The only way this works out well is if you're the bean counter at the WDFW.
Let's call this what it is - whoring out of a popular system. WDFW policy - no money to be left on the table! If Joe Hunter is willing to drop $5 a year in permit app fees for 10 years to get a big bull tag, and now he's willing to make the contribution for the 20 years it takes to get the bull tag, why don't they just make the tag app $100 and weed out the people who think "ah, do I want to supersize this meal or do I want a shot at a big bull this year? Oh, hell, let's do both - it's cheap!" The people who REALLY want that big bull tag will get it, and the people who would have normally thrown their $5 in the hat for the fun of it will maybe take the money and buy a milkshake instead. Yes, I know that it reduces the opportunity of the folks that cannot afford the higher tag apps. But is this supposed to improve that for them?
Hell, let's go the full monte - big bull tag, $2500. First-come, first served, limited number of tags. You pay the pimp (WDFW) for the entertainment. Any takers?
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 05:59:06 PM
Here's why it will kill the odds....every person that puts a cow tag down as a 4th choice and draws every third year will now be in the bull draws for the LONG term.. that means that the quality permits will not cycle through applicants at all.
Statistically it means that people who are at the bottom end of the point pools will just get further and further behind because of the squaring of points.......... and for the folks that like doe tags and cow tags guess what?..There are now a ton of people ahead of you with 10+ points so get ready to start waiting :chuckle:
It will be a cluster for sure.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:13:14 PM
Quote
Hell, let's go the full monte - big bull tag, $2500. First-come, first served, limited number of tags. You pay the pimp (WDFW) for the entertainment. Any takers?
yup. :hello:
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 06:17:15 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:18:13 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 06:19:47 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 06:20:12 PM
Do you think there really going to follow through?
Given their track record I would say its already done and they are just trying to ease us into the *censored* storm rather than throwing us into it. Kind of like a kiss before the bending over.(https://hunting-washington.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10123/16.gif)
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 06:21:47 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:22:46 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:23:53 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 06:26:16 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:26:25 PM
Post by: TheHunt on January 15, 2010, 06:28:25 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 06:31:28 PM
You ever notice that the answers on those surveys are never the one you want to give or have? In school I seem to remember the mutiple choice tests always had "non of the above" :chuckle:
Yep. College courses on survey making just so you can get the answer you want or need.
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 06:35:14 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:37:40 PM
"Get ritch or Die trying"
Post by: SuperDave on January 15, 2010, 06:38:19 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 06:40:45 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 06:42:32 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 06:42:49 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 06:45:49 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 06:51:35 PM
Don't you guys think it's just about time Washington state becomes a draw only state like most other western states already are?
I really have never understood why anyone would want that. Why would you really want to have to wait to draw a tag in order to hunt the state you live in? I love camping but having to wait a couple years just to hunt a general hunt does not appeal to me at all, am I missing the obvious here?
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 06:53:37 PM
Of course they're going to "follow though." After all, this is coming about because of the surveys they did asking us hunters what they could do to make us all happier.
Yep and typical of state govt. they get it all wrong and screw everyone. Who in their right mind would ask for that many choices? Why add to the confusion?
Why can't they make it simpler? I could see a buck permit and a doe permit or cow & bull. But why "quality" and MH? Just to make more money? To add to the confusion we face every year?
Post by: 75johndeere on January 15, 2010, 06:55:22 PM
VIOLATION/POACHER
1-877-933-9847
we should all call the violation hotline
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 06:56:23 PM
Post by: denali on January 15, 2010, 06:57:13 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on January 15, 2010, 06:57:34 PM
Post by: TheHunt on January 15, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 07:00:34 PM
Yes I guess you are missing the obvious. Which is with hunting by permit only the number of hunters can be limited, unlike the general seasons we have where the WDFW has no control on the number of deer and elk killed in each GMU. With no general seasons you could still potentially hunt every year, you just might have to apply for the less popular units. Or you could plan on hunting deer one year and elk the next. With the system Oregon has many of the units can still be drawn every year, or at least every other year.Sorry bud but I like hunting my units every single year!
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 07:18:32 PM
Yes I guess you are missing the obvious. Which is with hunting by permit only the number of hunters can be limited, unlike the general seasons we have where the WDFW has no control on the number of deer and elk killed in each GMU. With no general seasons you could still potentially hunt every year, you just might have to apply for the less popular units. Or you could plan on hunting deer one year and elk the next. With the system Oregon has many of the units can still be drawn every year, or at least every other year.Sorry bud but I like hunting my units every single year!
What units would those be?
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 07:19:38 PM
I think if you are interested in a meat cow you will have opportunities. The bull permits will be like other states and will be hard to come by.
Better opportunities for a cow permit IF you have a lot of points. If you only have 1 or 2 points, like me, then the chances of drawing a cow permit just got drastically reduced.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 07:21:04 PM
The Good ones ;)Yes I guess you are missing the obvious. Which is with hunting by permit only the number of hunters can be limited, unlike the general seasons we have where the WDFW has no control on the number of deer and elk killed in each GMU. With no general seasons you could still potentially hunt every year, you just might have to apply for the less popular units. Or you could plan on hunting deer one year and elk the next. With the system Oregon has many of the units can still be drawn every year, or at least every other year.Sorry bud but I like hunting my units every single year!
What units would those be?
Post by: Woodchuck on January 15, 2010, 07:23:24 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 07:25:58 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 07:27:33 PM
Quote
Which is with hunting by permit only the number of hunters can be limited, unlike the general seasons we have where the WDFW has no control on the number of deer and elk killed in each GMU.
Thats perfect Bobcat, you have bought into the thinking that since they are so inept at management of the resource the real solution is to simply remove some of the participants. Oh brother :bdid:
Post by: sako223 on January 15, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 07:33:59 PM
QuoteWhich is with hunting by permit only the number of hunters can be limited, unlike the general seasons we have where the WDFW has no control on the number of deer and elk killed in each GMU.
Thats perfect Bobcat, you have bought into the thinking that since they are so inept at management of the resource the real solution is to simply remove some of the participants. Oh brother :bdid:
But, that IS how wildlife is usually managed, by limiting the number of animals killed by hunters in each unit each year. To manage numbers of wildlife you have to manage PEOPLE! Not just have it open to all with unlimited numbers of tags. Not saying I don't like having the option of hunting anywhere in the state I like, but I don't understand how Washington is so special that we can have unlimited over-the-counter tags while other western states that have lots of people like California and Oregon cannot ???
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 07:41:34 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2010, 07:43:26 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 07:48:41 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 07:51:30 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:28:20 PM
This is definitely not helping the little ones get into the sport...
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 08:30:58 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 08:31:46 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:33:17 PM
Im just glad I have points and am not starting from scratch. Anyone who is over 10 points is most likely going to draw a buck and a quality buck before the low point folks ever get a whiff.....how that for fair :chuckle:
Post by: whacker1 on January 15, 2010, 08:36:11 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:37:27 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 15, 2010, 08:38:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 08:39:14 PM
While Washington will enhance their revenue - the out of state permits and applications will go up based on Washington's new plan
Please clarify ???
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:41:06 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:42:13 PM
While Washington will enhance their revenue - the out of state permits and applications will go up based on Washington's new plan
Please clarify ???
Because after I draw out....I'm outta here. F'EM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:43:31 PM
They must look at wildlife with such contempt to pimp it out the way they do..really pisses me off. >:(
Post by: gasman on January 15, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
I belive the WDFW are assuming that the meat hunters will not appy for the trophy tags and give the trophy guy a better chance at being drawn and vise versa. Th trophy guy will not put in for a meat tag.
Personally i think they should go with the Bull/Buck, Cow/Doe permit and you lose points no matter what you draw.
That will keep the meet hunters and the trophy hunters seperate, well sort of. ( do knw some meat hunters that would nt waste there points or money on a tropgy tag, the meat is the most inportant thing of the harvest, because yu can not eat antlers.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 15, 2010, 08:48:07 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 08:49:08 PM
Yeah, after I cash out this time around Im out. I don't need to contribute to the clown show any longer than I have too.
I'm with you, I bet they lose a lot of hunters this way.
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 08:50:21 PM
Post by: whacker1 on January 15, 2010, 08:50:46 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:51:38 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:53:51 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 08:55:02 PM
Post by: gasman on January 15, 2010, 08:56:29 PM
:bash:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 15, 2010, 08:58:46 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 08:59:07 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 09:07:55 PM
I cant believe they are going to call a general buck tag for a legal 3 point a "quality" hunt simply because it has antlers of any size on its head.
Where did you see that?
Post by: finnman on January 15, 2010, 10:06:06 PM
No WA license, deer $ elk tags, special permits, fishing licenses etc. for the wife and I in exchange we have 1 Montana Deer combo paid for plus some.....
Screw this state!!!!
Montana & Wyoming deserve my money!!!!!
Back to my Rare Breed.......... :chuckle:
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on January 15, 2010, 10:32:11 PM
I'm with you, I can walk and glass all day in Montucky, and not see anybody but the pards. Same with a couple spots in Idaho I have.I was completely overwhelmed this year buy folks, to the point its almost not worth it for me.
Back to my 8 seconds....
Post by: Lowedog on January 15, 2010, 11:32:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 11:38:30 PM
I urge you all to take a stand here and not buy your permit applications! Why wait until you draw and then quit? You are just feeding the beast! Why would you keep giving them your money for another 5-10yrs or how ever long it takes till you draw? Just stop now and take a stand!
I agree. Get out now while you still can! :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2010, 07:04:38 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 16, 2010, 07:10:05 AM
All I see is *censored*ty draw odds getting way worse! Now all the Bull hunters can draw cow hunts without losing points to screw the meat hunters and the cow hunters get to apply for bull hunts screwing the Bull hunters.
Gotta agree. This is to shut up the malcontents who apply every year for hundreds to one odds permits, and never draw any permit as a result. It's a windfall for those with high current point totals. In the long run, worse odds for all permits. It is, however, a totally fair allocation of opportunities.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 16, 2010, 07:33:30 AM
Someone in the know should send this and that poll link to someone in the know. A commisioner, a person on the board, maybe all of them and let them know just how well recieved this is. We as a site are now a majority slice of Washington hunters.
Yes, we do have a diverse selection of WA hunters and it seems that most here think this is a bad idea.
I suggest everyone send an email to director@dfw.wa.gov and wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
The problem is that we can not agree on a solution. I am ok with an antler and antlerless option for deer and elk, but definately no more options then that. Also allow us to pick what catagory we want our current points and then start every other catagory at zero. Or just keep our current points on buck and bull if it is easier. BUT I would like only two hunt choices for each catagory.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 08:16:57 AM
Post by: nwhunter on January 16, 2010, 08:33:50 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 16, 2010, 08:43:19 AM
Its too complicated to have us choose where the points will go. The only way OD central can make it work is if its all or nothing.. :chuckle:
I know it is a bit early, but I though it was fitting to pull it out of retirement.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2F1443nooutdoorcentral.jpg&hash=d19e4eec7734388ccba5180702e2f063cfc1ad91)
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 08:47:35 AM
Post by: high country on January 16, 2010, 08:49:30 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 08:51:16 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on January 16, 2010, 09:43:23 AM
All I see is *censored*ty draw odds getting way worse! Now all the Bull hunters can draw cow hunts without losing points to screw the meat hunters and the cow hunters get to apply for bull hunts screwing the Bull hunters. Worse all the way around for hunters and WDFW gets a ton more money. What a complete Joke!
x2........money grab for SURE.
Post by: shanevg on January 16, 2010, 09:59:42 AM
Quote
In response to your proposed change to the special hunting permit drawing, I would like to make my opinion heard immediately, rather than wait until later in the year.
WDFW says that they are proposing this change to accommodate hunters who want a better chance of drawing their premium tag while still getting the chance to draw less desirable tags. Ultimately, the option you have proposed seems to hurt everyone's odds in both categories without solving any problems except for the lack of funds for WDFW.
The best thing about the current drawing system, is that many hunters are not willing to wait ten or more years to draw a premium tag. They in turn apply for the antlerless tags and are able to draw on average very two or three years. Alternatively, the hunters who are willing to wait for a premium tag are not trying to draw the anterless tags and are therefore keeping odds for drawing them relatively high. Under your new proposed system, a majority of hunters will be applying for both, in effect increasing the amount of applicants in both pools. Additionally, the hunters with very few points who have been drawing anterless tags will now be going up against hunters with 10 or more points and will have almost no chance of drawing. At the same time, they will be applying for the premium tags without any chance of ever catching up with the max point holders.
Again, this proposal does nothing advantageous for any hunter except for the few waiting for premium tags who will now be able to get antlerless tags without losing all their points. There are many different alternatives that can reach the same goal without creating so many problems.
1. You can implement the process used by Wyoming Fish and Game. Everyone's first choice is considered before anyone's second choice is considered. If you are drawn for a second, third, or fourth choice, you do not lose your points.
2. You could go back to one of your older systems where second deer tags did not use points. That gave all hunters the chance to draw a second deer tag even if they were waiting for a premium tag. At the same time, the hunters who want to get doe tags every 2 or 3 years can apply for the tags that are not second deer tags that the premium hunters will not be applying for.
Both of the above options provide the same opportunities for hunters without screwing over a vast majority of the hunters in the application pool. The one thing it does not solve is WDFW's lack of funding. But this problem can be solved easily as well. Instead of making hunters pay to apply in up to 8 different pools for elk and deer, have them pay $10 or $15 for an application point rather than the $5 they currently pay. Also, for the "once-in-a-lifetime" tags, you could do what almost every other state in the west does and require hunters to provide tag fees up front. Then WDFW could gain interest on those tag fees for 1-3 months and use that money to increase odds. At the same time, you could increase the non-refundable fee to apply for OIL tags to $20. Not only would this provide additional funding for WDFW, but it would also most likely decrease the number of hunters applying in the OIL draws therefore giving the serious hunter better chances of drawing. Ideally, a good price structure could be determined that would deter the casual hunter from applying for OIL tags, but still provide enough additional revenue for WDFW that theyare not losing money due to the decrease in applicants.
I encourage you to read through the forum posts on this link, hunters as a whole do not like this idea. It does nothing positive for almost every single hunter. Please consider the desires and the needs of the hunter when considering implementing options like this.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 16, 2010, 10:09:35 AM
Post by: Lowedog on January 16, 2010, 10:10:55 AM
Someone in the know should send this and that poll link to someone in the know. A commisioner, a person on the board, maybe all of them and let them know just how well recieved this is. We as a site are now a majority slice of Washington hunters.
A majority slice of Washington hunters? 32 people voted in that poll and there are 10-20 different members discussing this on this thread. Over 144,000 people bought deer tags in 2008. I would say that hunting-wa is a minority.
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 10:14:39 AM
Quote
The problem is that we can not agree on a solution.
I would agree BTKR, but then again we as a group were never asked to come up with one. ;)
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 10:29:11 AM
Post by: shanevg on January 16, 2010, 11:29:57 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 11:32:25 AM
Post by: shanevg on January 16, 2010, 11:43:03 AM
I hope you get an explanation on that...please share when you do.
You can see my goat letter in the Other Big Game Forum.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 12:09:33 PM
Post by: Curly on January 16, 2010, 12:25:27 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 12:34:41 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 12:36:24 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 16, 2010, 12:36:44 PM
Can you purchase moose/goat/sheep applications without purchasing a license?
Yes, that's why non-residents like to put in for our moose, goat, and sheep tags.
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 12:42:27 PM
Post by: Alan K on January 16, 2010, 01:23:22 PM
Post by: NWBREW on January 16, 2010, 01:31:17 PM
$50 per app....they will never let that go. There are ALOT of non resident apps.. :'(
I agree. I do wish they would up the price for a non resident app. Maybe $100-150. I would rather see them take money out of non residents pockets than residents who actually do more to support this states wildlife. just my :twocents:
Post by: Dansk on January 16, 2010, 03:10:55 PM
10 bucks for better odds? :dunno:
Hopefully there's an actuary on this forum and can set me straight on calculating odds, but.....
Seems to me if your an opportunist, your odds just got better because it only takes one person to not enter in any one of the three draws to improve overall odds for those who do apply to all three.
If we have 10 people (regardless of entries or points) entering for deer permits, and 5 permits given out, and one hunter can only take 1 animal- whether you have 5 separate drawings for each of the 5 permits or 1 drawing for all 5 combined - aren't overall average odds of drawing a tag still 50%. 5/10 people are guaranteed to draw regardless of the drawing scenario, points, etc. Again, it assumes that everyone enters in all drawings.
If you only enter in 1 drawing- no doubt about it- your screwed.
Now factor in points, choice order, etc. The pecking order and draw odds for certain people based on points will shift that 50% around (those with < the avg points have <50% chance, those with more, have >50% chance)... but isnt it still 50% average for the whole group? Agree that some hunters odds will go down if your only puting in for just trophy, but doesn't that mean that those puting in for all three go UP???
Everyone is chiming in that most everyone's odds are screwed by this scenario.... is that really the case? If some are screwed by the new system (odds going down), aren't some people benefiting (odds go up)? Question is: who are 'those people'? Again, I've got to assume its those puting in for all 3.
If I am an opportunist type hunter who is OK paying an additional $10 for better draw odds...why wouldn't I support this? (politics aside).
So - are the majority of hunters meat? trophy? opportunits?
I'd wager the majority of hunters are opportunists. I'd also bet that those same people are OK with paying another $10 to improve thier odds.
:dunno:
Post by: bobcat on January 16, 2010, 03:16:30 PM
That's kind of what I was saying before, when we were discussing what would happen with odds if they were to reduce the number of choices on each application. Most say it would improve odds. I say overall odds would stay the same. Similar to what you are saying with this new scenario, and I agree. The overall odds of somebody drawing a deer or elk permit will remain the same. It's just that those with few points will have very low odds on the antlerless permits.
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 03:17:41 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 16, 2010, 03:24:03 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 03:28:43 PM
The people that just want opportunity and don't have the patience to wait for 10-15 years for that buck or bull tag are now going to be able to apply for the trophy tags and still apply the antler-less tags.
Now flip it.
People like me who will wait 20 years for the tag I want and never apply for a cow tags are going to be all over the antlerless draw because we see it as free meat.
Your also discounting how many people have 10+ points for deer and elk because we have been holding out for a trophy tag and those points will now be active for the first time trying to draw antler-less tags.
The average needed to draw a cow tag will now be 10+ where it was 2-3......
The over all odds that you will be able to draw any tag will decrease the thing that increases is the probability because you have more occurrences of the event (drawings), and that realistically only benefits you if you are going into the new system with a high number of points because the odds for all applicants are going to go down.
10 bucks is not enough money to deter people from applying for all of the options.
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 03:38:55 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 16, 2010, 03:46:39 PM
Even with a lot of points those antlerless tags won't be drawn at the same percentage rate as premier hunt tags as there are a lot more of them available.
I do think it is a bad idea to have points go across the board.
I do think $10 is enough to deter a lot of people. Most people complain they spend too much now. Take someone who has multiple family member to apply for into consideration. A lot of those people currently are putting quality hunt choices down as one of there choices but if they have to pay for that choice I am thinking a lot won't.
:twocents:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 03:51:23 PM
Quote
I think you are way over estimating the average applicants desire to spend more money and also to apply for tags they don't care about
your talking about an extra 20-40$ per applicant..I think they will find the money. Especially if the state doesn't make them start at 0 points.
Post by: Woodchuck on January 16, 2010, 03:53:41 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 03:57:20 PM
Keep in mind that my rebuttal was in response to the "increased odds" post.
Quote
No way does adding more people to any one group of permits with a set number, increase odds, sorry.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 16, 2010, 04:04:58 PM
Here is the breakdown for last year without the really high point holders after the tags.
Manastash A (cow tag) 250 tags 2,585 apps 3.86 average points
There is no way that number gets better..its just not possible.
There were 3400 apps for the bull tags in the manastash. Id bet half of those guys dont apply for any cow tags and that might be low. Most still hunt that area for spikes if they dont draw there bull tag. Id bet 90% of those guys will be after a cow tag now so they dont have to chase a spike. :dunno:
Now we are going to have 5000+ apps for those Manastash cow tags..Same story in most other units.
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 04:17:31 PM
Post by: NWBREW on January 16, 2010, 04:18:52 PM
QuoteI think you are way over estimating the average applicants desire to spend more money and also to apply for tags they don't care about
your talking about an extra 20-40$ per applicant..I think they will find the money. Especially if the state doesn't make them start at 0 points.
I agree. I have a good number of points and not alot of money....but what's an extra 10 or 20 bucks if I can put a big fat cow elk in the freezer and still have points for a bull tag. Well worth the money I would say. I don't think it will deter a whole lot of people. I don't like it but I believe the number of points you will need for a cow tag will go down a little after the people with 10+ points draw out on cow tags. May take a few years though. It's just not going to help my chances at a bull tag. just my :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2010, 04:37:01 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 04:40:24 PM
Quote
Your telling me that a chance to kill a cow elk isn't worth a latte?
Yeah Bone but have you seen what they wear around here while making those latte? :yike:
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2010, 04:42:19 PM
Post by: d_wilson on January 16, 2010, 04:43:30 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2010, 04:44:25 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 04:53:50 PM
Post by: Dansk on January 16, 2010, 04:57:13 PM
:bow: Spot on right there. I have lots of points and NEVER had a thought of putting in for an anterless permit. Guess what, I am now!!! :chuckle:
So are your odds of drawing a cow tag, a bull tag, or both in the new system greater, equal to, or less than drawing just a bull tag in the old system?
Post by: sako223 on January 16, 2010, 06:08:50 PM
One can only imagine what goes on in the morning circle jerk at WDFW. I keep saying we need to make a showing, demand in person some transparency and representation. This is another one of those issues that if it flies we share some blame for not stepping up.
Post by: Lowedog on January 16, 2010, 08:41:22 PM
Lowdog, you think that the average guy, that has 5 or 6 points for example, is now just going to walk away from his points and not apply again? I can see the $10 deterring new people, or people starting back at 0, but I dont see someone with any amount of points just saying "keep my money and years I've waited, I'm done." Some will but most won't. I think a lot of guys will do the same as me, continue to put in until we get the permit we want and then never apply in that section again.
Keep in mind that my rebuttal was in response to the "increased odds" post.QuoteNo way does adding more people to any one group of permits with a set number, increase odds, sorry.
How would they be walking away from points? I have 11 points for elk right now and I won't be applying for a cow tag. I have no desire to shoot a cow. I will keep applying for quality bull hunts. Now am I walking away from points if I do that?
I agree that some people will see it as an opportunity but I think a lot won't.
It's kind of funny, I get the feeling that some people are talking out of both sides of their mouth. On one side they are complaining that this is just a money grab by WDFW and out the other side are saying they will support it all the way buying every app they can. ;)
If you think it's an advantage to you because you can apply for antlerless tags and not lose trophy tag points if drawn then why bitch about it?
Post by: huntnphool on January 16, 2010, 10:42:11 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 16, 2010, 11:08:51 PM
My son is 10 he will start hunting next year and he has no chance unless we start hunting montana and that is starting to look like the better option.
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 12:05:55 AM
Maybe if you slowed down and read the posts you wouldn't be so confused. :dunno:
Oh enlightened one...I guess I do not possess the powers of observation that most have. Please use your great knowledge to explain to me in simpler terms so that I may too be able to see the light as you do.
I read as slow as I possibly could and I still don't see where anyone said people would walk away from their points and just not apply again. I am soooo confused!!!
Post by: billythekidrock on January 17, 2010, 05:43:48 AM
Lowdog, you think that the average guy, that has 5 or 6 points for example, is now just going to walk away from his points and not apply again? I can see the $10 deterring new people, or people starting back at 0, but I dont see someone with any amount of points just saying "keep my money and years I've waited, I'm done." Some will but most won't. I think a lot of guys will do the same as me, continue to put in until we get the permit we want and then never apply in that section again.
Keep in mind that my rebuttal was in response to the "increased odds" post.QuoteNo way does adding more people to any one group of permits with a set number, increase odds, sorry.
I think this analogy is spot on, especially in my case for deer.
I have 5 points and my wife has 6 for deer. I don't put in for either sex nor any of the larger muley hunts because I don't know the units. Just late blacktail permits. Since her points were adding up she stopped applying for either sex and just the late bt permits.
Now just to keep up with the "jones's" and to hope at a crack at even an either sex permit in my old age I will need to buy into each group now. Even the "quality" permits that I did not apply for in the past. So now instead of applying for 4 bt buck units I will be applying for 8 buck units (if the catagories still have 4 choices). And I will probably apply my wife for hunts that we wouldn't have applied her for (or even hunt if drawn depending on circumstances) because she is in the middle of the points and won't lose out on a local bt or either sex points.
Now for elk I have 0 and my wife has 5. Neither one of us will really have a chance at getting drawn for any elk permit with all the extra competition.
The only way I see this working to get better odds is if someone were drawn for both a bull & cow or a buck and doe and they lose all points while choosing which permit they want. Other then that, I don't see how this will make the odds any better or "fix" the points situation.
Post by: shanevg on January 17, 2010, 08:27:59 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 08:34:46 AM
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 09:50:23 AM
Of course that wouldn't be as encouraging for people to buy multiple applications and they did say that they see this as a way to increase revenue.
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 09:56:52 AM
I think that allowing the points to be applied to each pool is the main flaw in this idea. I think if they made us choose where our current points would go it would have a better chance of working to increase odds for certain hunts.
:yeah:
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 11:27:16 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 11:29:36 AM
Post by: d_wilson on January 17, 2010, 12:40:06 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 17, 2010, 12:46:12 PM
I have a friend who drew a cow tag last year but later decided he didn't want the tag so he sent the tag back to the F&W and they gave him his points back. I suppose if you are fortunate to draw multiple tags you could send one back and get your points back. Not really a good solution for the problem though.Thats *censored* and just one more reason to see how worthless are wdfw is!
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 17, 2010, 01:24:16 PM
I don't really like the change but as we have all seen it really doesn't matter what we want, they do what they please to us...
And if you don't put in that is just one more year you are behind so go ahead and skip a year. If we could get everybody to skip a few years thy might listen to what we really want. But you will never get everybody on the same page.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 17, 2010, 01:47:12 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 17, 2010, 02:21:04 PM
I think it makes great sense to apply for both sexes, especially if you don't have many points and if you don't really care about what you get drawn for.
In my case, I will apply the wife for both and hunt the one that most fits the situation at the time. If she draws both and we have to give up a bull due to circumstances then so be it.
If.. and I say if you happen to draw a bull and a cow at the same time there is no question which most people will take but you never know, what if just before the drawing your circumstances change (which we have seen before) and you are only able to make the cow hunt. :dunno:
My question is this...do they just let that other tag go away or do they have a second drawing? How many times has some one not gotten drawn the first time, changed their plans and the drew the second when they didn't want it? We have seen that a couple times as well.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 02:25:46 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 03:07:33 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 03:08:37 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 03:25:04 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 03:32:08 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 03:35:54 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 17, 2010, 03:49:01 PM
I can't wait to see the odds for the premium tags...
I can't wait to see what they consider "premium".
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 03:58:30 PM
Here is a question..are we all going to be alloud to apply for premium eastisde elk tags with a westside elk tag just because it's "premium" also will we be limited to weapon choice in the premium pool or can we mix and match :dunno:
Post by: jager on January 17, 2010, 04:04:08 PM
Quote
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
I've been following this discussion and with all the talk I guess I missed this in the beginning!
Forgive me.....If I am only putting in for big bull or buck hunts this will affect me because someone that may have antlerless points, may draw the "quality" hunt before me based on the number of points they have already accrued?
I guess that it would not affect the OIL tags since there is only one pool for each...oh wait there are ewe tags and cow moose tags correct?
This is complete *censored*.
I'm so tired of bending over for this department.
We really need to start a petition! Names, address, wild id #. I know that everyone is not able to attend the public comment hearings and 10 or 20 people showing up isn't gonna do it!
Maybe someone could get a website up where we could do that...maybe the admin would be the only one able to see the addy's and the wild id?
I don't have enough website know how or I'd do it in a second. I'd be more than happy to donate to that cause.
We have close to 4000 members on this site right.
Someone step up...for all of us...Please :bow:
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 17, 2010, 04:19:45 PM
"Unless one of those permits is for a second antlerless deer tag, a hunter would be restricted to harvesting one animal. Hunters who draw more than one permit would be able to choose which hunt or hunts to participate in, but would have to stop hunting once they harvest an animal." The way i read this is they could participate in both hunts but would have to stop once the animal is harvested...
SO effectively i could draw nooksack bull and nooksack cow and i could pass on small bulls all day long knowing i could go kill a cow if i needed to fill the freezer... I know stupid example but an example none the less.
Post by: shanevg on January 17, 2010, 05:06:45 PM
WDFW-SUX, I know that the public were strongly against less than 4 choices, but maybe now that there are 8 pools WDFW will be smart enough to limit us to 1 choice. As much as this sucks, if we are only given one choice per pool I could handle things.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 05:10:29 PM
1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and Master Hunter permits
Those are the ones Ill be in for deer and elk...sigh
Ill do ghost points for disabled and master hunter in case I ever need to apply there too.
Post by: Lowedog on January 17, 2010, 05:14:58 PM
As for the OIL tags I don't see many people wanting to burn them on a ewe or cow moose hunt. Especially those with points. Maybe I'm wrong there?
There are really only 4 pools available to the average applicant. Unless you are a disabled senior who is also a MH then you would have 7.
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 05:16:54 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 17, 2010, 05:18:24 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 05:40:12 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 17, 2010, 07:15:12 PM
Id apply for a cow moose tag too if it was in a seperate pool mostly just to screw your odds bobcat ;)
One more application won't screw anybody's odds. So go ahead. I just want the chance to hunt moose once in my life. If it's cow moose I'm fine with that.
One more wouldn't, but if everyone who has max or near max points applies...well, there go the odds.
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 07:18:23 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 07:19:06 PM
Ill do ghost points for disabled and master hunter in case I ever need to apply there too.
:chuckle:
Post by: billythekidrock on January 17, 2010, 07:22:09 PM
Yes, you are right. I'm hoping they don't have separate pools for the moose permits.
Well ya know, we probably gave them another "idea" to take our cash.
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 07:27:49 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 17, 2010, 07:34:57 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 07:37:26 PM
There PROBABLY won't be a separate antlerless moose pool anyway.
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 17, 2010, 08:16:21 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 17, 2010, 08:33:21 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 10:39:03 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 18, 2010, 11:31:17 AM
I personally don't like the idea. If I set up the system I would do it much differently, although I do like the idea of the Quality hunts(except I would charge a premium to apply for them to lower the number of apps.).
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 11:35:01 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 11:36:39 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 18, 2010, 11:47:23 AM
Go to ?29 your answer is there.
I do think the fact that it will raise more money gives them the motivation to do it, but from that survey the public definately was in favor of it.
Post by: boneaddict on January 18, 2010, 11:56:29 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 18, 2010, 12:08:57 PM
Post by: Curly on January 18, 2010, 12:12:16 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/surveysummary_jul1708.pdf
Go to ?29 your answer is there.
I do think the fact that it will raise more money gives them the motivation to do it, but from that survey the public definately was in favor of it.
After looking at the survey results, they are just going by what their survey showed most are in favor of. Not too surprising that we are getting bent over based on how people vote in this state :bash:........and it isn't necessarily by WDFW....they have the survey results to fall back on.
I do like the results of this question "H. Allowing hunters to apply for elk permits statewide, regardless if their
elk tag is for eastern or western Washington."
So if they let us apply for Eastern WA elk permits I assume that if we get drawn for Eastern we would just use our W WA elk tag? That works for me. But it will really screw the odds for some of the good bull tags in E Wa.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 18, 2010, 12:16:03 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 12:19:04 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 18, 2010, 12:19:43 PM
Allowing western tags to apply for eastern hunts again decreases draw odds! That would be another killer! :bdid:http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/surveysummary_jul1708.pdf
Go to ?29 your answer is there.
I do think the fact that it will raise more money gives them the motivation to do it, but from that survey the public definately was in favor of it.
After looking at the survey results, they are just going by what their survey showed most are in favor of. Not too surprising that we are getting bent over based on how people vote in this state :bash:........and it isn't necessarily by WDFW....they have the survey results to fall back on.
I do like the results of this question "H. Allowing hunters to apply for elk permits statewide, regardless if their
elk tag is for eastern or western Washington."
So if they let us apply for Eastern WA elk permits I assume that if we get drawn for Eastern we would just use our W WA elk tag? That works for me. But it will really screw the odds for some of the good bull tags in E Wa.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 18, 2010, 12:21:19 PM
The more I think about it the more I think this new system really won't decrease odds on the majority of the permits. I mean you've still got basically the same number of people applying and the same number of permits. And MOST people are going to apply for one or the other, not both. By that I mean they will either apply for the buck/bull permits, or the antlerless. The members of this board are not your average hunter. I'd guess 90% of hunters don't go to sites like this, and they probably don't think about hunting 24/7 365 days a year like we do. Honestly odds on a lot of the buck/bull permits COULD go up. If you consider that a lot of people that mostly apply for deer and elk permits because they want to draw an antlerless tag, will just for the heck of it put down 2 or 3 buck/bull hunts on their application and for their last choice put down the antlerless hunt they really want and really expect to draw. Now, these people might just buy only the antlerless application and that's all they will put in for. So there you go. All of a sudden we've got less applicants applying for the popular buck and bull permits. Who knows. It's impossible to know how things will work out. I still think if they'd go to draw only at least for mule deer and eastside elk we'd be a lot better off.:bash:
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 12:22:26 PM
What's the matter... little pent up frustration? :)
Post by: Curly on January 18, 2010, 12:25:49 PM
Allowing western tags to apply for eastern hunts again decreases draw odds! That would be another killer! :bdid:
Yeah. It is a stupid idea.........(if the intent of the changes is to "increase draw odss for the popular permits").
There are really no Bull permits in W WA that I would put in for if I can put in for E WA bull permits with my W WA elk tag. A lot of W WA elk hunters probably don't apply for any permits, but if they have a chance to put in for E WA, then they likely will.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 18, 2010, 12:30:26 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 01:11:12 PM
Ridgerunner those poll results explain alot of there justification for the changes. Id like to have seen the question framed differently....for example would you support these changes if it decreases you odds of drawing a tag? I bet the results would be dramatically different.
Unfortunately its becoming clear to me that the majority of folks dont have a clear understanding of odds, probability or how our states draw works and that why this policy is so flawed.
Im sure the brain trust at wildlife understand what they are doing but they don't really care if the average "retarded Hillbilly" draws a tag every 5 or every 10 years. All they care about is the almighty dollar.
Post by: boneaddict on January 18, 2010, 01:47:40 PM
From my perspective. My family alone, My Dad, my wife, and myself will now be in all 4 cow tag choices. I haven't entered a cow hunt my entire life as my 4 choices meant more to me than that. A co-worker, also a member on here, always puts in for cow, because he'd rather hunt, and likes the meat. He will now be in all 4 bull hunts, and his 4 cow hunts. That is my little world. If we go east/west as I am guessing might be happening, then I will very likely try some West side hunting as I know a few spots and I can kill a bull without being drawn and even though I am in the general here, I rarely hunt Spike. If you are Westside, and don't put your name in the blues pot, I'd be SERIOUSLY shocked. Those of you guys that live in the Blues and want that tag. ....you better start working some mojo. That is just MY little world. Now according to Bobcat, if we changed the choices down to 2 hats instead of 4, the odds won't improve any. I think I'd bang my head on the wall too if I was really trying to convince him otherwise. :chuckle:
Post by: Curly on January 18, 2010, 01:57:25 PM
then I will very likely try some West side hunting as I know a few spots and I can kill a bull without being drawn and even though I am in the general here, I rarely hunt Spike.
I never even thought of that scenario. I didn't figure the eastside guys would hunt western washington for general season bulls and then apply for E WA for the good bull tags. So now, we could see an increase in pressure in W Wa general season too........ :bash:
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 02:02:09 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 18, 2010, 02:04:48 PM
Yeah Curly, I also tend to be fairly successful at finding and killing things. Who wants to hunt spikes only when you can have a shot at branch antlered. Imagine all the new calling pressure etc. I always bought my eastside tag and put in tfor the draw but didn't hunt the Spike much. Now I won't need too.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 02:07:28 PM
Post by: Curly on January 18, 2010, 02:09:20 PM
Who wants to hunt spikes only when you can have a shot at branch antlered.
Exactly..........
I'll have to hope they don't change that and you can stay over there waiting to draw a branch bull tag..... :)
Post by: Curly on January 18, 2010, 02:10:36 PM
We might be putting the cart before the horse on the east west thing why would they be selling multi season apps if they were just going to let us hunt where ever? Unless its bait and switch
Well, the multi season tag allows you to hunt three weapon seasons so they should still sell a bunch of those.
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 02:13:07 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 18, 2010, 02:13:48 PM
Post by: sako223 on January 18, 2010, 02:33:10 PM
I understand the theory of extra points in each category changing minds about where to apply.
Post by: huntnphool on January 18, 2010, 02:35:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 02:36:13 PM
A lot of the speculation is that ten points will automatically trump one point. Well that is something I have complained about the weighted point system. Guys getting drawn with 0 or 1 point year after year.
Because 10 points gives a person 100 chances in the draw, while 1 point is only 1 chance. So yeah, 10 points is a definite advantage over 1 point. Sure a permit can still be drawn by somebody with only 1 point and that's the good thing about this state's system. In other states, that have a preference point system, only the max point holders have a chance of drawing.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 18, 2010, 02:49:32 PM
The regs state that you can only harvest one moose per lifetime. This is waived if you killed a cow on a cow only hunt. If you killed a bull first you cannot ever kill a cow. If you kill a cow firat you can still kill a bull. Very clear and fair. isnt it?
So how does it work with the MH moose permits? I was told that a guy could possibly kill a moose every year if he was chosen for the damage hunt.
Post by: huntnphool on January 18, 2010, 02:58:57 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 18, 2010, 04:57:53 PM
Master Hunter permits are currently exempt from the "once in a lifetime" clause.
"An individual may only harvest one moose during their lifetime; waived for hunters who have harvested a moose in an antlerless only hunt, master hunter hunts, and raffle and auction hunts."
However, the odds of someone drawing a Master Hunter moose permit each year, being called to hunt each year, and successfully harvesting a moose each year are about 0. As I understand it there were around 1000 applicants for 20 permits last year. Even if you draw you may not get to hunt.
So in theory, yes: you could kill a moose every year, either by drawing a Master Hunter permit every year, by drawing a raffle every year, or by purchasing an auction tag every year.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 18, 2010, 06:37:31 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 18, 2010, 06:40:14 PM
Post by: ABugg on January 18, 2010, 07:40:10 PM
Many of the current doe/cow tags may be switched to 2nd tag options which means 2 deer/elk could be taken; 1 during general season and 1 with a 2nd tag if drawn. I suspect drawing odds for some of the better hunts might decrease because you have guys who would have applied only for the antlerless hunts that can now apply for both. I also think the number of doe and cow permits would have to decrease in order to account for a higher kill rate (not all guys kill a doe even though they have a permit, they hold out for a buck).
Post by: JBar on January 18, 2010, 07:52:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 18, 2010, 07:54:11 PM
Wow my head hurts after reading 18 pages of this.
That's understandable! I think someone should start another thread on this subject so we can get a fresh start. :)
Post by: MooseStock on January 18, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 18, 2010, 08:01:30 PM
The quality hunts will predominately be hunts during the rut for deer or elk; say the first 2 weeks in November for blacktails, for example. New hunts should be added, but most with only a limited # of permits 1-10 in most cases.
Many of the current doe/cow tags may be switched to 2nd tag options which means 2 deer/elk could be taken; 1 during general season and 1 with a 2nd tag if drawn. I suspect drawing odds for some of the better hunts might decrease because you have guys who would have applied only for the antlerless hunts that can now apply for both. I also think the number of doe and cow permits would have to decrease in order to account for a higher kill rate (not all guys kill a doe even though they have a permit, they hold out for a buck).
Having more hunt options will mitigate some of the damage to the odds from more applications. Any other details Abugg?
Post by: ABugg on January 18, 2010, 08:15:20 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 07:08:25 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 07:52:35 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 19, 2010, 08:15:11 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 19, 2010, 08:15:47 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 08:33:26 AM
Post by: Lowedog on January 19, 2010, 08:55:05 AM
Wow my head hurts after reading 18 pages of this. I'm pretty sure I am against their proposal but I need my head to stop hurting to comprehend most of it. More general fund money for the Old Hag to spend somewhere other than on wildlife.
While I am no supporter of the Old Hag I was searching around for info on where the fees go and found this.
Where do license fees go? What percentage goes into the State General Fund or other funds NOT for use by WDFW?
79% goes to the State Wildlife Account 13% of that money goes to Other WDFW controlled accounts 5% goes to the General Fund
Out of the money that goes to the General Fund, how much is appropriated back to the Department?
As an example: In fiscal year 2002, the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife deposited $47,099,799 as revenues into the General Fund and spent $90,389,524 as expenditures from the General Fund.
but I think we can all agree this proposal SUCKS, whether you have zero points or 12, a seasoned hunter, or a kid just starting out.
I actually don't agree with that. I have a lot of questions about it but I will wait till I can get more info before I say it is worse, better or no different than what we have now.
One thing is certain from the link that Ridgerunner posted is that they are simply proposing what the majority supported.
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 08:55:33 AM
I have never had a problem with our current permit draw system. It gives all a chance at only 4 draws and favors those with more points. There are always exceptions but the odds favor those with more points depending on the type of hunt you applied for. I have drawn both deer and elk and now have few points but I accept the fact that in the current system my odds are less. I think this new permit system and how crazy it seems just really shows that we currently DO have a fair and decent system. "If it ain't broke...don't fix it". I see this as just a cash grab for the state and a system with tenfold the problems they have had in the past or just a HUGE "ClusterFock"....or something like that................Les
Well said. I agree 100%.
I'm curious how the department plans on supporting this two tag option withthe current status of our herds. Mostly, the elk are doing fine, though some would argue the Clock and Blues are having some recruitment issues. The Methow deer population is horrible to anyone that spends any time out there. No matter what Fitkin says, in order to push his wolf agenda, that herd is in trouble. They are one step away from catastrophic. One late spring, one more heavy winter. This is a whole other topic, but increasing antlerless oppurtunities to try to offset the decreased odds everywhere else is NUTS. You want to fix the odds, and have this system, go to 2 choices on a permit app. One antlered and one antlerless. You get the same revenue, increase odds and oppurtunity. We can all sit here and argue about odds and choices etc. but I think we can all agree this proposal SUCKS, whether you have zero points or 12, a seasoned hunter, or a kid just starting out.
True that.
I don't see how they can justify any doe tags.......?
Quote
In my opinion the best way to make odds better would be to increase the cost of a special permit application. It's only $5 now. Make it $20 or $25 each. That's still not a lot of money but when somebody starts thinking about applying for 5, or 6, or more different permit categories, it would really add up. And think of non-resident fees... to come up with non-resident fees the WDFW simply multiplies resident fees by 10. So all these non-residents that are applying for our moose, mountain goat, and bighorn sheep tags for $50, would be paying $200 if we were paying $20. So a lot of non-residents would be taken out of the drawings, and also the wives, grandmothers, etc that get put into the drawings just because it's so cheap.
It should be obvious to most that WDFW is not really interested in increasing draw odds........their interest is in making more money off the backs of the hunters...............(unless the WDFW employees all took the same statistics class as Bobcat... :chuckle:) Just kidding..... :)
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 09:01:03 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:03:08 AM
Nice numbers by the way. That is a better picture for sure about where the funds do go. I'm glad to see some wildlife dollars being spent in the "right spot."
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 09:04:01 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:15:17 AM
Why is it better. He now can apply for 4 choices for big bull and yet still apply for cow. He has some points, so isn't out of the running. His bull applications will go Blues, Blues, Naches, and Clock. He will hunt the general in Packwood if not drawn, hit the Yakima a little just for tradition.
Why is this worse for him.....he is less likely to draw a cow tag, though his luck has already been poor, because Phool put in for his area where he would like to hunt cows, along with a whole bunch other members with 10 points PLUS. Because eastside guys can go west, more hunters will flood that way during their seasons, and more westside guys will flood east for our seasons. Though there is more time in the filed, you will also be sharing with more folks. What else has he impacted on folks....well his name in now in 4 hats for big bull where he wasn't before, with his 5 points.
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:18:20 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 09:19:31 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:23:14 AM
Jack the prices of the OIL. It costs money to survey them, take care of them etc. UP FRONT the cash, draw interest off of the funds while they hold it, and have the fees way higher, such as $1000 or more even for resident. WAY higher for non res. RAISE the NR fees to apply or have them purchase a license first like EVERY OTHER STINKING state.
Invest some money and fight the tribes, and come up with some more equitable harvest from them.
Sell Wolf tags! $50 a pop from residents $300 from Non res.
Post by: actionshooter on January 19, 2010, 09:29:30 AM
If they want to raise revenue................have an application for the high hunt. ANOTHER $10 permit app.
OH JESUS CHRIST, they don't need any help bone, let them think of it on their own...... :chuckle:
Sell Wolf tags! $50 a pop from residents $300 from Non res.
As a resident, I would be happy to pay more than $50 ;)
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 09:33:49 AM
UP FRONT the cash, draw interest off of the funds while they hold it, and have the fees way higher, such as $1000 or more even for resident. WAY higher for non res.
Oh sure... you want me to pay $1000 for a moose tag if I draw it, since you've already drawn yours and only had to pay $100. :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 09:34:30 AM
by the way...for the more serious hunters, more time in the field often equates to a higher harvest, an d before too long more restrictions will need to be in place. You never know westside guys, with all the new pressure to take your branch anltered bulls, you might have to go to spike only as well. :)
Easy there big fella....
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 09:43:26 AM
Seems the main reason (besides trying to increase revenue) is because of the complaints of people with max points continually not drawing a tag. Well, tough $h#t. This is a lottery, and that is the way it works. Occasionally someone with not many points will draw the Entiat Buck tag or Blues Bull tag.........
The guys with max points will complain about not drawing and get frustrated (and that is understandable) but I doubt that those guys complaining really wanted WDFW to come-up with a hair brained scheme like they are proposing. I bet they were content to just bitch every year and figure that eventually they will draw.......
One of the main flaws with the proposal is allowing applicants to have all their points in each category. It would be better to let the applicant choose where his points will go........
And I really pray that they don't let people apply for each side of the State for Elk. I don't think they said anywhere that they would do that, but if they go by the survey results, the writing is on the wall.
Post by: Lowedog on January 19, 2010, 09:48:45 AM
I can see in this proposal some things that could be a benefit. Like I said, I still have a lot of questions about it.
I am not a big fan of a sate wide elk tag. But from that survey they did it looks as if the majority is.
I don't think the existing points an applicant has should be put into every pool. I think we should have to choose one pool of where we want it.
If more than one hunt is drawn by a single applicant I think they should have to choose the one they want and the other goes to an alternate.
That is just a few of my opinions on the proposal. A lot of people right now think the current system is too hard to draw in and at least the dept is proposing a change that the majority of people surveyed supported. It is at the moment a proposal so maybe with positive input to the right people they could tweak some things that might make it better.
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:52:22 AM
Quote
If they simply reduced the amount of permit choices a guy had and raised the application fee a few bucks, then that would be something I could support.THE PERFECT FIX, though they won't see it if it smacked'em in the head.
AS for those complaining about not drawing with max points. Most don't know much about math and odds. OIL you MAY NEVER DRAW. PERIOD As for deer and elk, try a unit that has more than 10 tags and 4,000 applicants. Once these complainers draw, then they'll never draw again. BUT at least in this state, there is still a chance. Wyoming Preference.....NEVER
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 09:53:36 AM
Quote
I don't think the existing points an applicant has should be put into every pool. I think we should have to choose one pool of where we want it.
If more than one hunt is drawn by a single applicant I think they should have to choose the one they want and the other goes to an alternate.
Both would be better fixes to this proposal.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 10:00:31 AM
Post by: huntnphool on January 19, 2010, 10:19:22 AM
Im going to send them some email to make the system as terrible as it can be so it implodes in a year or two and we have to start over.
No need to send an email SUX, looks like its going to happen anyway :chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on January 19, 2010, 10:21:03 AM
There ARE people this proposal will help in the short term. Its the guy who has been putting in for cow tags and never bull tags because antlers are awesome, but he didn't want to wait x amount of years, and he does love a good barbecue. On average he has 4 to 5 points because he has been unlucky at even drawing a cow. He now has the oppurtunity to be in both draws. He is also a guy that likes the Westside, Packwod area, but chooses to put in for the Eastside because thats closer to home. He is not one to utilize the multi season permit.
Why is it better. He now can apply for 4 choices for big bull and yet still apply for cow. He has some points, so isn't out of the running. His bull applications will go Blues, Blues, Naches, and Clock. He will hunt the general in Packwood if not drawn, hit the Yakima a little just for tradition.
Why is this worse for him.....he is less likely to draw a cow tag, though his luck has already been poor, because Phool put in for his area where he would like to hunt cows, along with a whole bunch other members with 10 points PLUS. Because eastside guys can go west, more hunters will flood that way during their seasons, and more westside guys will flood east for our seasons. Though there is more time in the filed, you will also be sharing with more folks. What else has he impacted on folks....well his name in now in 4 hats for big bull where he wasn't before, with his 5 points.
Thats it in a nuttshell Bone.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 10:48:24 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 19, 2010, 10:48:50 AM
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 11:03:32 AM
not sure where you guys think westside elk tag holders will be allowed to put in for the eastside tags. The press release said nothing to that effect. I imagine if that was the plan it would have been in there. Just becuase people in the survey wanted it doesn't mean its going to be implemented.
I agree......and I'm to blame for starting that rumor. :sry: :)
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 11:09:43 AM
What a pile... :crap:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 11:34:02 AM
Oh I can't wait. :chuckle:
Post by: whacker1 on January 19, 2010, 12:19:14 PM
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 12:28:23 PM
So let me get this straight...there are going to be hunts for westside archery antlerless tags only? and then some westside archery 2nd cow and then there are also going to be hunts for westside archery bull and westside premium archery bull... Thats alot of computations for us hillbillies to figure out...
Oh I can't wait. :chuckle:
That what I was trying to figure out..Not sure.. :bash:
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 12:32:18 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 12:42:52 PM
I think im going to call them and ask..
Post by: whacker1 on January 19, 2010, 12:45:29 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 12:46:43 PM
You know....they could make Rocky Big Horns a seperate OIL choice if they want some more money for there pensions.
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 12:49:04 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 12:49:51 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on January 19, 2010, 12:53:20 PM
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 01:00:03 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 01:02:11 PM
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 01:04:56 PM
Im going to get on there lay away plan..spread it out alittle make some payments.
Wouldn't that be nice..12 payments of $7.99. Sign up by May 1st and get a free access decal. LOL
Post by: rougheye on January 19, 2010, 01:22:23 PM
Post by: JBar on January 19, 2010, 04:53:16 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 19, 2010, 05:12:24 PM
I think these permit packages listed below are the proverbial carrot to the current stick (8 categories).
Three deer
One additional- any buck black-tailed deer, one
additional any buck mule deer, and one additional any buck
white-tailed deer; total harvest not to exceed three animals.
North East Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest three of six possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
One additional any buck white-tailed deer, one
additional any bull elk, one any bull moose, one additional any
legal cougar, one additional any legal black bear, and one
additional any legal turkey
South Central Washington Big Game
one additional- any bull elk, one additional- any buck
deer, and one California bighorn sheep
ram; total- harvest not to exceed three animals.
South East Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest four of five possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
include: One additional- any buck white-tailed deer,' one
additional any buck mule deer, one additional any bull elk, one
additional any legal cougar, and one additional any legal black
bear; total harvest not to exceed four animals.
North Central Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest three of five possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
include: One additional any buck white-tailed deer, one
additional any buck mule deer, one any ram California bighorn
sheep, one additional any legal cougar, and one additional any
legal black bear; total- harvest not to exceed three animals.
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 05:15:03 PM
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 06:36:51 PM
So I am still confused about "8 deer categories" and "8 elk categories". How much is this going to cost?
I think these permit packages listed below are the proverbial carrot to the current stick (8 categories).
Three deer
One additional- any buck black-tailed deer, one
additional any buck mule deer, and one additional any buck
white-tailed deer; total harvest not to exceed three animals.
North East Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest three of six possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
One additional any buck white-tailed deer, one
additional any bull elk, one any bull moose, one additional any
legal cougar, one additional any legal black bear, and one
additional any legal turkey
South Central Washington Big Game
one additional- any bull elk, one additional- any buck
deer, and one California bighorn sheep
ram; total- harvest not to exceed three animals.
South East Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest four of five possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
include: One additional- any buck white-tailed deer,' one
additional any buck mule deer, one additional any bull elk, one
additional any legal cougar, and one additional any legal black
bear; total harvest not to exceed four animals.
North Central Washington Big Game
Permit hunter may harvest three of five possible
species. Species that may be harvested under this permit
include: One additional any buck white-tailed deer, one
additional any buck mule deer, one any ram California bighorn
sheep, one additional any legal cougar, and one additional any
legal black bear; total- harvest not to exceed three animals.
These special raffle permits maybe easier to put in for..LOL CHeaper too. Odds of drawing?..LOL
Post by: ABugg on January 19, 2010, 06:57:22 PM
No packages...you simply apply for permits from each that you want to hunt in. There will likely be some new hunts added, but essentially take the current permit hunts and reclassify them into the new categories. If you look at the 2009 Deer Permit hunts for rifle hunters for example. Under the special restrictions column hunt 1000 is a white-tailed hunt from Nov 20-24, a whitetail hunt during the rut, this goes into the quality hunt category; permit hunt 1091, a blacktail hunt from Nov 1-24, the blacktail rut, goes into the quality hunt category; many of the antlerless permits go to the 2nd tag category, the non-rut any buck permits in a different category, and so on. So for me, I have 2 points now. If the system is changed next year, I'll end up with 2 points in each category. I'll buy a quality hunt permit and a 2nd tag permit; I likely won't get drawn for the quality and will accumulate another point in that category, while at the same time maybe I get drawn for a 2nd tag and kill a doe; I start over in this category with 0 points.
The devil is in the details, though and how this affects draw odds will depend upon how permit numbers are changed and how much the change attracts hunters to apply in multiple categories; where fewer people might have applied for the does, opting instead to apply for a buck rut hunt only, will likely now apply for both.
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 07:01:48 PM
Post by: Cougeyes on January 19, 2010, 07:02:51 PM
I can't keep up with this damn thread without making my head hurt again
That is why i gave up and will wait until the comment period on this if there will be one.
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 07:04:07 PM
Change often sucks
True that. I HATE change.
You know what though.....? Change may suck often, but the WDFW lately always Sucks and so does this proposal........ (of course you're entitled to your opinion, though).... :)
Post by: Cougeyes on January 19, 2010, 07:04:53 PM
So is this a done deal and we are past the public input stage?
The commission is scheduled to take public comments in advance of their March 11-12 meeting and take action on the permit proposals at the April 9-10 meeting. The specific proposals will be available for comment in early February.
Taken from page 1, apparently it isn't a done deal.
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 07:06:42 PM
So is this a done deal and we are past the public input stage?
The notice says this...
The department is proposing to put the new system into effect in time for the 2010 hunting seasons. Wildlife staff first briefed the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission on the proposal during a public meeting in March 2009. We have been working to modify the computerized drawing system in preparation for permit application sales in April 2010. The commission is scheduled to take public comments in advance of their March 11-12 meeting and take action on the permit proposals at the April 9-10 meeting. The specific proposals will be available for comment in early February.
Post by: Lowedog on January 19, 2010, 07:09:04 PM
Change often sucks, but I don't think this will be any more confusing than the current system and does have some potential advantages. According to the 2nd or so post in this thread...WDFW freq asked questions...WDFW is adjusting the current structure to 8 new categories each for deer and elk. Each category is drawn from separately; points are earned or deducted accordingly from only those categories applied/drawn in. Current point balances are applied across all categories; their example, if you have 10 points now, you'll start with 10 points in each category if the change goes through.
No packages...you simply apply for permits from each that you want to hunt in. There will likely be some new hunts added, but essentially take the current permit hunts and reclassify them into the new categories. If you look at the 2009 Deer Permit hunts for rifle hunters for example. Under the special restrictions column hunt 1000 is a white-tailed hunt from Nov 20-24, a whitetail hunt during the rut, this goes into the quality hunt category; permit hunt 1091, a blacktail hunt from Nov 1-24, the blacktail rut, goes into the quality hunt category; many of the antlerless permits go to the 2nd tag category, the non-rut any buck permits in a different category, and so on. So for me, I have 2 points now. If the system is changed next year, I'll end up with 2 points in each category. I'll buy a quality hunt permit and a 2nd tag permit; I likely won't get drawn for the quality and will accumulate another point in that category, while at the same time maybe I get drawn for a 2nd tag and kill a doe; I start over in this category with 0 points.
The devil is in the details, though and how this affects draw odds will depend upon how permit numbers are changed and how much the change attracts hunters to apply in multiple categories; where fewer people might have applied for the does, opting instead to apply for a buck rut hunt only, will likely now apply for both.
Sounds to me like the quality hunts will likely remain with about the same odds of drawing while depending on what applicants do the antlerless hunts may be tougher to draw.
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 07:11:39 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 07:12:52 PM
Quote
The devil is in the details, though and how this affects draw odds will depend upon how permit numbers are changed and how much the change attracts hunters to apply in multiple categories; where fewer people might have applied for the does, opting instead to apply for a buck rut hunt only, will likely now apply for both
Please don't suggest that there is any possibility that this will increase our draw odds it's insulting.
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 07:15:44 PM
I do like the idea of being able to draw a 2nd deer tag for antlerless deer. Although currently I don't see where there should be many doe permits issued anywhere in the state, except for possibly units that are predominantly private farmland.
My feelilng is that in general most of the really popular buck/bull permits will still have about the same odds of drawing as they've had previously.
Post by: Wea300mag on January 19, 2010, 07:16:33 PM
Quote
We have been working to modify the computerized drawing system in preparation for permit application sales in April 2010.
That's scary, I see re-draws for the next couple years.
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 07:18:35 PM
Post by: whacker1 on January 19, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
How much worse will depend on how much money the masses are willing to spend on applications. My guess is that they will be roughly 25%-50% worse drawing odds based on the additional folks applying in both sets of pools.
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 07:30:27 PM
Quote
My feelilng is that in general most of the really popular buck/bull permits will still have about the same odds of drawing as they've had previously.
I talked to a group of guys today that never put in for big bull permits becasue all they like to do is meat hunt and cow tags have much better odds. They weren't too excited about the guys with high points coming in to draw their cow tags, but they were all STOKED about being able to put in for big bull now. Thats 5 more guys that are going to be in the pool. I have a gut feeling that is what is going to happen. I don't see an equal amount of guys dropping out of the big bull pool, but that is just me. To me that makes the odds worse. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 07:34:15 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 07:41:28 PM
Post by: Curly on January 19, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 19, 2010, 07:44:01 PM
Post by: Wea300mag on January 19, 2010, 07:48:14 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2010, 07:48:49 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 08:00:49 PM
And it could also be like most of you think, we could have double the number of people putting in for every possible category they can, and odds will be way worse than they were before. Whatever happens, we will just have to live with however they set it up. They did the surveys and they're doing what the majority voted for. Kind of hard to argue with that.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 19, 2010, 08:03:03 PM
Post by: wrangler on January 19, 2010, 08:06:56 PM
Post by: gasman on January 19, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
We will have to wait and see what the final out come is on exactly what the change will be if any.
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Post by: wrangler on January 19, 2010, 08:11:23 PM
So those who have been building up points while waiting for that almost once in a lifetime bull elk permit, may still only apply for a bull permit and won't enter the antlerless draw at all.
you are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT WRONG thinking this is how its gonna be. read what i just posted. im no different than any other trophy hunter, actually im prolly more anal and see with more tunnel vision than most when it comes to drawing a trophy tag, thats my ultimate goal and im fine to wait cause i know i'll shoot a record book animal. however, your sorely mistaken if you think i wont be putting for cow tags now every year also.
Post by: Geno on January 19, 2010, 08:22:22 PM
Post by: whacker1 on January 19, 2010, 08:25:11 PM
Post by: wrangler on January 19, 2010, 08:28:14 PM
I think it would be foolish to apply for a quality tag and a meat tag in the same year if you have lots of points built up. Just think, a guy with 10 points could draw both permits the same year and only one gets filled...most likely the quality tag. BAM!!! back to zero points in both catagories. So...please folks, if you have lots of points feel free to burn them up by applying in all catagories. Those with the most points are most likely get drawn and you can only fill one, then you are at the back of the line again. :bash: :'(
not when everyone with 10 points are now putting in for cow tags. even so, if i draw both i'll have no problem trashing the cow tag for the bull tag. but thats just me...
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 19, 2010, 08:28:28 PM
Post by: Geno on January 19, 2010, 08:32:15 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 08:36:18 PM
Same number of permits + Same number of hunters applying = same odds.
IMHO
Now let's have a vote, is this thread going to set a record for the most pages? :chuckle:
Post by: whacker1 on January 19, 2010, 08:52:09 PM
In the last 14 years people applied for their 4 hunt choices, now there are people applying for their 4 hunt choices plus your 4 hunt choices. They effective cut the odds by somewhere around 30% - 50% depending on how many people actually take advantage of applying in both pools and how many actually choose the permits you go after.
It is F'd in the A
Post by: nwhunter on January 19, 2010, 09:06:27 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 19, 2010, 09:21:04 PM
In my mind, this generally helps the guys described by Bone - they'd love a primo tag, but they can't stand to wait that long so they go fill the freezer with their doe tags (Exhibit A = my old man). Now they will eventually draw that primo tag, but the price to pay is they will draw a doe tag a little less often. I bet there's a large portion of the hunting pool that is perfectly okay with that outcome.
Post by: huntnphool on January 19, 2010, 09:37:45 PM
Quote
Just think, a guy with 10 points could draw both permits the same year and only one gets filled...most likely the quality tag. BAM!!! back to zero points in both catagories.
What a bummer to have to choose :chuckle: Go ahead and burden me with having to make that decision, no brainer actually and I will be smiling all the way to my unit. You have to remember Geno, these are points that I was given for free to apply for that antlerless tag, I couldn't care less if I burn them because I drew a branched permit, bring it on!!!
Post by: Geno on January 19, 2010, 09:49:06 PM
Post by: wrangler on January 19, 2010, 09:56:36 PM
I hope you don't feel like I singled you out :P 10 points was just a good round number. I've got a few points built up myself, I'll stay out of the meat hunt until I have that branched bone on the wall. Then of course I'll put meat in the freezer the following year! :IBCOOL: I won't put in for both on the same year, but you can bet your ass I'll be ghost pointing in the mean time. ;)
which is exactly why this whole effing thing is fundamentally FOR THE GAYS! basically it just allows meat hunters piss in the trophy hunters cheerios and trophy hunters piss in the meat hunters cheerios and make it all one big pissing match for no other reason than now 'we can'. the whole while the state is laughing all the way to the bank. :puke:
Post by: yelp on January 19, 2010, 09:57:52 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 19, 2010, 10:16:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2010, 10:16:51 PM
which is exactly why this whole effing thing is fundamentally FOR THE GAYS! basically it just allows meat hunters piss in the trophy hunters cheerios and trophy hunters piss in the meat hunters cheerios and make it all one big pissing match for no other reason than now 'we can'. the whole while the state is laughing all the way to the bank. :puke:
Now that's something I can agree with...very well said! Course it doesn't matter to me cause I'm a trophy hunter AND a meat hunter. I don't care what permit I draw as long as I draw SOMETHING. Anything to get me out of the general season hunts, that's about all I care about.
Post by: Geno on January 19, 2010, 10:17:39 PM
Post by: Lowedog on January 19, 2010, 10:20:32 PM
This tread has made it's rounds a few times now :bash::yeah:
We will have to wait and see what the final out come is on exactly what the change will be if any.
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Post by: Geno on January 19, 2010, 10:20:57 PM
Now that's something I can agree with...very well said! Course it doesn't matter to me cause I'm a trophy hunter AND a meat hunter. I don't care what permit I draw as long as I draw SOMETHING. Anything to get me out of the general season hunts, that's about all I care about.Quote
Exactly how I feel! :tup:
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 20, 2010, 05:22:29 AM
I love post like these where one person misinterprets something and posts it then it gets run with and people are mad about it when it was never correct in the first place. If you read the Q&A real close all of the answers are there.
I am not real hot on the whole thing but i will put in for both at the same time and i have 12 points. If i draw both then i will go from there but untill that happens i am not going to worry about it...
Post by: billythekidrock on January 20, 2010, 05:56:00 AM
Here's the deal people... the odds can't be worse for EVERYBODY. If it's worse odds for some, it HAS to be better odds for others, all depending on how many points you have and what you apply for. Unless a whole lot more people decide to start applying for special permits who had never played the application game before.
Same number of permits + Same number of hunters applying = same odds.
IMHO
Now let's have a vote, is this thread going to set a record for the most pages? :chuckle:
If we went to two choices, I would definitely agree with this. But if it goes the way it looks like it will, I don't know how it can improve.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 20, 2010, 06:11:52 AM
No packages...you simply apply for permits from each that you want to hunt in. There will likely be some new hunts added, but essentially take the current permit hunts and reclassify them into the new categories.
Have you read the jan0710_03_biggame_turkey.pdf from the January meeting?
The Green Sheet states..."...the Dept is recommending adding 5 multi-species raffle permits. The proposed raffle permits allow the harvest of 3-5 big game animals in different areas of the state..."
Sounds like packages to me. :dunno:
Post by: boneaddict on January 20, 2010, 06:22:35 AM
Quote
same number of permits with the same number of people applying for 8 choices in two different pools vs 4 choices in one pool does change the odds because you are now taking the 60% of that population that applied for bull tags only and adding another 30% to it. So you are in fact competing with more people for the specific type of hunting that you typically apply for. Likewise you are taking the 40% that applied for cow tags and added 40% to that for those that only applied for bull tags and now applied for cow tags.
In the last 14 years people applied for their 4 hunt choices, now there are people applying for their 4 hunt choices plus your 4 hunt choices. They effective cut the odds by somewhere around 30% - 50% depending on how many people actually take advantage of applying in both pools and how many actually choose the permits you go after.
It is F'd in the A
Whacker has it figured out.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 20, 2010, 06:26:37 AM
Quotesame number of permits with the same number of people applying for 8 choices in two different pools vs 4 choices in one pool does change the odds because you are now taking the 60% of that population that applied for bull tags only and adding another 30% to it. So you are in fact competing with more people for the specific type of hunting that you typically apply for. Likewise you are taking the 40% that applied for cow tags and added 40% to that for those that only applied for bull tags and now applied for cow tags.
In the last 14 years people applied for their 4 hunt choices, now there are people applying for their 4 hunt choices plus your 4 hunt choices. They effective cut the odds by somewhere around 30% - 50% depending on how many people actually take advantage of applying in both pools and how many actually choose the permits you go after.
It is F'd in the A
Whacker has it figured out.
Yep..all the more reason for going to 2 hunt choices.
With all the new categories maybe they can go down to one choice per?
Post by: yelp on January 20, 2010, 06:55:10 AM
No packages...you simply apply for permits from each that you want to hunt in. There will likely be some new hunts added, but essentially take the current permit hunts and reclassify them into the new categories.
Have you read the jan0710_03_biggame_turkey.pdf from the January meeting?
The Green Sheet states..."...the Dept is recommending adding 5 multi-species raffle permits. The proposed raffle permits allow the harvest of 3-5 big game animals in different areas of the state...
"Sounds like packages to me. :dunno:
Here it is..
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2009/wsr_09-21-091.pdf
I believe the packages 19-23 as you mentioned in previous threads are described as "Director Authorized Auction or Raffle Permits".
Another potential $ maker for them.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 07:47:57 AM
Same number of permits + Same number of hunters applying = same odds.
It is not going to be the same number of hunters applying. The meat hunters will now be applying for the buck/bull tags and the trophy guys will now be applying for the cow/doe tags...........
And if I understand correctly, you don't lose your points in the other categories when you draw in one category.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:02:23 AM
I keep trying to emphasize that all I'm talking about is the overall odds of drawing any deer or elk permit will be the same, but I think only one person in this thread seems to understand that.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: Geno on January 20, 2010, 08:15:47 AM
And that is assuming that they make you choose what tag you will keep, i think i copy and pasted where it said you can only harvest one animal never once did it say wich tag you will keep. SO you really might be able to hunt both and if you don't fill your bull tag you will be able to fill it with your cow tag. Not that it will be likely that you would draw both in the same year butnever in there Q&A does it say you would have to turn one in.
I love post like these where one person misinterprets something and posts it then it gets run with and people are mad about it when it was never correct in the first place. If you read the Q&A real close all of the answers are there.
I am not real hot on the whole thing but i will put in for both at the same time and i have 12 points. If i draw both then i will go from there but untill that happens i am not going to worry about it...
What happens if I draw more than one permit for the same species?
Unless one of those permits is for a second antlerless deer tag, a hunter would be restricted to harvesting one animal. Hunters who draw more than one permit would be able to choose which hunt or hunts to participate in, but would have to stop hunting once they harvest an animal.
I love it when someone thinks you've misinterpeted something and then tries to point it out to make you look like a *censored*! :chuckle: WDFW, it doesn't say anything about being able to turn one in if you are drawn for both. It's probably the same as the system works now...if you get drawn then it's yours, you can't give it back. You can hunt for bulls and cows at the same time, but only harvest one of the two. You were issued a permit in both catagories which thus puts you at zero points in both. But I am sure there will be differences in opinion and different interpetations of any written text, even when it seems very clear to some. Clearly not many here are in favor of these proposed changes, and differences in interpetation fueled by a bit of frustration and anger equals 25 plus pages of bickering! ;)
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:18:13 AM
Look at it this way, last year there was a total of 9,078 special deer permits issued. There was a total of 43,310 people who applied for a special deer permit. Divide the 43,310 by 9,078 and you get 4.77.
So in 2009 the odds of drawing a deer permit was 1 in 4.77, meaning 1 out of every 4.77 people who applied was successful in drawing a permit. We could round that to 1 in 5 just for the discussion here.
Now this year if the numbers of deer permits issued and the number of hunters applying for those permits stays relatively the same, the odds will still be 1 in 5. It shouldn't matter how many different categories they divide the deer permits into, the OVERALL odds will still be 1 in 5. The only way odds will be worse is if for some reason there are more applicants this year than there was last year.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 08:22:35 AM
Quote
The only way odds will be worse is if for some reason there are more applicants this year than there was last year.
Please tell me you don't think there will be less applications this year?
There will be a 200-300% increase in application for antlerless stuff and probably a 30-40% increase in trophy apps...There is no way in hell your odds will be better and because your odds will be so much worse its debatable if your probability of drawing any tag will increase.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:23:58 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:27:17 AM
QuoteThe only way odds will be worse is if for some reason there are more applicants this year than there was last year.
Please tell me you don't think there will be less aplications this year?
No...why would there would be less applicants? I think there will be the same number of applicants, or slightly higher, just as every year it increases a little, probably just because of sites like this, and people who previously knew nothing about applying for special permits, hear about it and decide to get in the game. But I don't see the numbers increasing any more than what would be normal year to year. Although it is possible it could decrease due to the economy.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 08:29:19 AM
Quote
But I don't see the numbers increasing any more than what would be normal year to year. Although it is possible it could decrease due to the economy
:chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on January 20, 2010, 08:29:36 AM
QuoteThe only way odds will be worse is if for some reason there are more applicants this year than there was last year.
Please tell me you don't think there will be less applications this year?
There will be a 200-300% increase in application for antlerless stuff and probably a 30-40% increase in trophy apps...There is no way in hell your odds will be better and because your odds will be so much worse its debatable if your probability of drawing any tag will increase.
Agree...maybe I'm missing something, but if all the antlerless folks also put in for antlered permits the odds get worse. Conversely I don't see antlerless odds getting worse as antlered folks are not going there.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 08:29:45 AM
So, essentially the new system will be giving away permits to the guys that have been applying for the premium tags for years.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 08:31:51 AM
Quote
Conversely I don't see antlerless odds getting worse as antlered folks are not going there.
Your crazy if you think trophy hunters won't crawl across broken glass at the chance for a cow tag.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 08:33:40 AM
QuoteConversely I don't see antlerless odds getting worse as antlered folks are not going there.
Your crazy if you think trophy hunters won't crawl across broken glass at the chance for a cow tag.
Yeah, if they won't lose their points for the bull tag, most will apply for cow I would think. Now doe permits, maybe not.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:36:46 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on January 20, 2010, 08:39:02 AM
QuoteConversely I don't see antlerless odds getting worse as antlered folks are not going there.
Your crazy if you think trophy hunters won't crawl across broken glass at the chance for a cow tag.
You're right............I keep forgetting you don't loose your points on either side until drawn. Still it's really going to screw up the odds on the antlered side.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 08:49:13 AM
Ive never thought of applying for a cow tag and I can name 50 guys I know that haven't either but they all will now. Those are essentially "new" applicants in the system. When you factor in the weighted system that means all odds are reduced unless you have 15 points this year.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 08:53:25 AM
Quote
43,310 people that applied for a deer permit last year. What will that number be this year?
Thats likely to be the number of people that apply for antlerless stuff this year.... :chuckle: Not all deer permits.
Post by: Lowedog on January 20, 2010, 08:56:38 AM
Yeah, I do think that number will increase as it has every year since the point systems inception. but even if it doesn't because of the multiple applications in the new system that applicants are now alloud to make there will be way way more competition for the same number of tags.
Ive never thought of applying for a cow tag and I can name 50 guys I know that haven't either but they all will now. Those are essentially "new" applicants in the system. When you factor in the weighted system that means all odds are reduced unless you have 15 points this year.
50!? C'mon Man... :rolleyes:
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 08:57:41 AM
Quote
unless you have 15 points this year
That's the key phrase right there. Those people have very high odds of drawing an antlerless tag if they choose to apply. So their odds of drawing an elk permit are greatly increased, while a lot of others with only a few points have greatly decreased odds. Put together, the average odds still come out the same.
I don't think I'm necessarily disagreeing with some of you on here... we're just talking about two different things.
I do realize my plans of drawing a cow elk permit this year are screwed because I only have 2 points. Before I heard of this new plan, I thought my chances of drawing my cow permit was almost 100%. Now it's down close to 0%.
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 20, 2010, 09:14:05 AM
Quote
Your crazy if you think trophy hunters won't crawl across broken glass at the chance for a cow tag
my name won't be in the hat.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 20, 2010, 09:23:44 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 20, 2010, 09:35:49 AM
I hear your arguement about choices. Overall if we move from 4 choices to one we are decreasing our odds proportioantely to all of those increasing our odds by folks moving from 4 choices to one. YES. However, I would take that bet! There are factors that are hard to mathematically equate. I'll try to paint a picture.
There are 5 goat tags and you have 4 choices. How many names will they have to pull out of the hat in order to fill all the tags. How many names will they have to draw out of the hat if there is only one choice. Then, you can argue though x amount of names are drawn, you ahve the same mathematical statistics of having your hunt filled. Again, I'll play that game. Many folks may not want the harder hunt, may put in for the easy card. For those ON TOP OF THE DRAW GAME, and not those hunters that aren't paying attention, hard work and research can pay off. You'd have alot less of these folks that have no clue what unit to put in for, but do so because they can, then come on hear and say I don't know anything about....please help......If these folks have onc chance to screw you up versus 4 chances......
I'll be in for cow along with my wife and my Dad probably. Nothing to lose.
Post by: huntnphool on January 20, 2010, 09:45:25 AM
Some of you seem to have a mental block....
Well somebody sure does :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on January 20, 2010, 09:51:21 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 20, 2010, 09:56:09 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on January 20, 2010, 10:00:41 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 20, 2010, 10:29:16 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 10:34:28 AM
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 10:42:49 AM
I will let them know that they should just keep the current system except reduce the choices down to 1 or 2......but if they want to change the system the new system should:
1) have no more than 2 choices in each pool
2) applicants should choose where there exisiting points will be allotted (i.e. - do not give everyone their points across the board)
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 11:03:17 AM
I don't think I'm necessarily disagreeing with some of you on here... we're just talking about two different things.
Ok, maybe we agree somewhat. Is this what you're getting at:
The odds are going to be worse across the board for drawing tags........there will be more applicants in every pool, thus worse odds for an individual of drawing a tag. But since everyone will have worse odds, then the chance of drawing a tag in a given year will still be close to what it is now?
The main problem I have though, is that the proposal is to give points to people to place in the other drawing pools. Therefore, they are not really addressing the problem...........so why even change it. The guys that want to draw the quality tags will not benefit and the guys that want to draw antlerlesss permits are F'd.
I see no long term benefit to the system for anyone. Short term benefit for the next couple years will be to the guys with max points that will now apply for antlerless permits, but then after they draw they will be in the same boat as everyone else.
Post by: whacker1 on January 20, 2010, 11:13:43 AM
Depending on the way this works. It looks like it would be another $20 per year for me.
$5 for elk quality
$5 for elk antlerless
$5 for deer antlerless (maybe)
$5 for deer quality
I will still be applying for the $5 deer antlered (that may not fall in the quality pool)
I will still be applying for the $5 elk anterled (that may not fall in the quality pool)
Don't forget about the guys that are Master Hunters. They get the opportunity to spend another $5 for deer and $5 for elk.
Post by: whacker1 on January 20, 2010, 11:17:33 AM
compare to the healthcare reform - some of legitimate intentions of fixing a problem, but when you look at the Bill itself it is loaded with unintended consequences.
Unintended consequences will be my message in writing to WDFW. They tried to address too much, and the complexity actually made things worse while on the surface it appeared to address the survey results.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 11:24:21 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 20, 2010, 12:23:39 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 20, 2010, 12:45:31 PM
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 01:03:41 PM
I'll hold out hope for now that they will listen to us and at least revise some of what has been proposed (even though I wish they would scap the whole new proposal). I agree that they will likely continue on with at least some form of the proposed system since they have already spent a bunch of time and money on it.
One concern I have is what good will a bunch of points be in 10 years when the wolves, cougars, hairloss, blue tongue, etc. have decreased the herd numbers to where they can't afford to have many permits anyway.
If WDFW would pull their head out, they would realize that they would get more people buying hunting licenses and tags if they would be honest about the wolf and cougar problem in this state and do something about that. Then there would be more deer/elk/moose/goats, for hunters to want to purchase tags for.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 01:14:46 PM
If WDFW would pull their head out
Maybe not the best idea, that's a lot of heads that would have to be pulled out, one-thousand six-hundred and twenty-seven to be exact.....
Just might be enough to create its own weather system in Olympia, if all the heads were pulled out simultaneously, possibly causing a tornado. There are enough natural catastrophes in this world as it is. No need to be wishing for more than what mother nature is going to dish out on her own...
Anybody want to see a list of WDFW employees and their salaries? Look here: http://www.ofm.wa.gov/persdetail/2009/477.pdf
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 20, 2010, 01:37:32 PM
They already paid for the new system..its done.From what susan yeager said its not a done deal at all. Its not even passed by the commision yet. She may be blowing smoke too but I'll definetly be finding out at the meetings.
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 02:27:15 PM
If WDFW would pull their head out
Anybody want to see a list of WDFW employees and their salaries? Look here: http://www.ofm.wa.gov/persdetail/2009/477.pdf
I see there is a director there that makes almost $11,000 per month.... :yike:
Post by: boneaddict on January 20, 2010, 02:53:39 PM
Post by: Curly on January 20, 2010, 03:27:32 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 20, 2010, 04:22:23 PM
long term benefit goes to WDFW in the form of increased revenue for the addtional $5 per special permit application
Depending on the way this works. It looks like it would be another $20 per year for me.
$5 for elk quality
$5 for elk antlerless
$5 for deer antlerless (maybe)
$5 for deer quality
I will still be applying for the $5 deer antlered (that may not fall in the quality pool)
I will still be applying for the $5 elk anterled (that may not fall in the quality pool)
Don't forget about the guys that are Master Hunters. They get the opportunity to spend another $5 for deer and $5 for elk.
Don't forget $5 for the Big Game package...or $5 each for the 5 packages ($25) depending on how they want to put it out there.
Post by: whacker1 on January 20, 2010, 04:23:34 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 20, 2010, 06:15:03 PM
Thanks for reminding me BTKR Here I thought I saved a couple bucks.
:bash: Yea, same here. :bash:
Post by: JBar on January 20, 2010, 06:29:33 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on January 20, 2010, 07:36:31 PM
Post by: shanevg on January 20, 2010, 08:25:59 PM
Holy crap this thing is up to 27 pages! :bash: If they are after revenue and want to make the system better to draw why don't they put a minimum 2 point system in place, charge successful applicants an extra $10 bucks to receive their special permit ( you know the 50 cent card they send you in the mail ) and any permits that are not purchased by a specified date go on sale as a leftover tag for $50 or $100 on a first come first served basis to unsuccessful applicants. This would give them an extra 10 bucks per special permit, plus extra for any leftover tags and the 2 points minimum would keep guys buying points while taking out 1/3 of the applicants each year. If I'm thinking this through right the first year would be kind of screwed as all applicants would be in the pool but after the 1st year they applicants should decrease by about a third the second year by 2/3 increasing the chances for those who have not drawn yet by a bunch that third year. Hopefully I described that without being to confusing. I'm sure this is flawed in some way also but if a lame arse like myself can figure something out the state should be able to do better than me. Well maybe not! :chuckle:
Overall I like your idea, but a 2 point minimum will do almost nothing as far as decreasing applicants. You are assuming that 1/3 of the applicants get drawn every year and therefore after 2 years, 2/3 of the applicants would be ineligible for a tag. If they want to do a point minimum, it should be a maybe a 5 point minimum for deer and elk and a 8 point minimum for OIL tags. That would increase odds a little bit.
Post by: JBar on January 21, 2010, 05:33:23 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 21, 2010, 02:44:32 PM
Quote
Thank you for your email to Director Anderson and the link to the blog about the proposal for special hunting permit categories. These discussion forums are a good way to gage what folks are thinking and the participants in this one are debating many of the same things we considered while developing our recommendations.
The objectives of the proposal are to try to improve the odds of drawing; allow more choices for hunters in permit applications; and generate funding to expand our hunter access program. It is difficult to make big improvements in the odds of drawing, but we think this proposal will help because there should be less overall competition with separate drawing categories. If this doesn’t result in a significant change in some categories, we can look at other ideas in the future. This recommendation will be significant for the other two objectives and after considering the pros and cons of the changes, we think that most hunters will support the recommended change.
On a national basis, the most significant thing that fish and wildlife agencies can do to recruit and retain hunters is improve access opportunities. In Washington, we have been working with hunters and conservation organizations to expand our access program for several years, this proposal will help us achieve that goal.
Dividing up the hunt choices among categories is challenging and will likely be highly debated by the public. The greatest challenge was the quality category and we generally considered: low density of other hunters, relatively high harvest success rates, season timing close to the rut or after migration, and how many hunters put in for the hunt in the past. The proposals will be available for comment early next month and we strongly encourage folks to submit their thoughts at that time.
Thanks again for sharing the link.
Sincerely,
Dave Ware, Game Division Manager
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 21, 2010, 03:03:25 PM
Quote
The objectives of the proposal are to try to improve the odds of drawing; allow more choices for hunters in permit applications; and generate funding to expand our hunter access program. It is difficult to make big improvements in the odds of drawing, but we think this proposal will help because there should be less overall competition with separate drawing categories.
Post by: jackelope on January 21, 2010, 03:44:41 PM
new thread started with info regarding a reply from the wdfw...
Post by: bobcat on February 04, 2010, 08:21:22 PM
I just got off the phone with Susan yeager on when the public comment will be. February 5-6 , public input starts 8:30 am and again at 4:30pm. March 12or 13 there will be public comment aswell. Department of Natural Resource Building in Olympia, 1st floor, room 172. She said the proposal is not a done deal and they will be listining to the public comment! She is mailing me the agenda and Ill post the exact times and dates again when Get it!
Did you get that agenda yet? If not, it's available online. All the topics listed on the agenda have to do with fishing. Nothing about the special permits. But they will take public comments at 8:30 a.m. as you were told. Each person only gets 3 minutes to speak. Here is a link to the agenda for February 5 & 6th:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2010/02/agenda_feb0610.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2010/02/agenda_feb0610.html)
The address where the meeting will be held:
FISH AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION MEETING
February 4-5-6, 2010
Natural Resources Building
First Floor, Room 172
1111 Washington St. SE
Olympia, Washington 98501
And here is the procedure for giving public testimony:
Procedure for Public Testimony
(Updated 10/17/07)
The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission is committed to allowing adequate time to consider public input prior to decisions, as well as to improve the ability of the Commission to move through its lengthy agendas.
This procedure will provide for public testimony on rule amendments at the same meeting that staff briefs the Commission. The public will have the opportunity to hear the staff presentation prior to making comments. The Commission will also be able to thoroughly consider the public comments in light of the staff report and prior to voting on the proposal. In most cases, final Commission decisions will be scheduled for the next meeting.
The Commission remains committed to providing the public with the opportunity to speak to the various issues of interest and concern. "Open Public Input" will remain a regular agenda item to discuss issues not otherwise on the agenda.
Providing Public Input at Fish and Wildlife Commission Meetings
SIGN-UP SHEET
Please complete a "Public Testimony" form if you want to provide testimony (available at the meeting registration table). Submit your completed form to the Commission representative at the registration table PRIOR to the start of discussion of that agenda item.
AGENDA
Public testimony is accepted only during those agenda items designated for "Public Input," and during "Open Public Input" portions of the agenda (Open Public Input is usually scheduled twice per meeting day; once in the morning and once in the afternoon, for items not on the agenda). Be aware that items may be taken out of order, and that the times listed are estimates only.
TESTIMONY
Due to extensive participation at Commission meetings, your opportunity to give testimony to the full Commission may be limited. To provide a fair opportunity for everyone to be heard, please abide by the following ground rules:
Review pertinent information provided at the registration table.
Complete a "Public Testimony" form and submit at the registration table PRIOR to the start of discussion of that agenda item.
If you have written material you wish to provide to the Commissioners, please give 13 copies to the Commission representative when you sign up to speak.
Speakers will have 3 minutes to speak. (A timer will beep to indicate when your three minutes are up.)
Your testimony time cannot be given to another speaker.
Summarize rather than read written material.
Address the Commission and the issues, not the other speakers or staff.
Consider others' time by limiting your comments to new issues. If you agree with points made by previous speakers, simply acknowledge that and please move on to new information.
Don't repeat material you have previously submitted in writing; provide new material or verbally re-frame written material to promote a deeper understanding of your points.
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 04, 2010, 08:37:36 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 04, 2010, 08:46:57 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 04, 2010, 08:52:05 PM
(turns out the contact person for this proposal is Dave Brittel, but it says you need to contact him by January 25)
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 04, 2010, 09:04:46 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 04, 2010, 09:08:15 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 04, 2010, 09:09:30 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 04, 2010, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 05, 2010, 05:02:30 AM
Post by: shanevg on February 05, 2010, 09:49:04 PM
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
After the proposed rule change in 2009, I quickly emailed different members of the Washington Department of Fish and Game the following inquiry:
"After reading through the new 2009 hunting regulations I have a number of questions and clarifications regarding the new mountain goat rules. It says in the regulations that the director can close certain sub populations. Does this mean that sub populations can be closed mid-season, or does this mean that from season to season, the areas will change? If someone gets drawn for a given unit, will they be guaranteed to be able to hunt every area listed in the brief area description in the regulations?"
Although the response I received from Donny Martorello was not exactly what I had hoped to hear, it did make one thing clear to me: that mountain goat applicants would be able to hunt the units they applied for and that any changes in hunting units would take place after the season was over. The following is the response email from Donny Martorello:
"Mr. VG:
Thank you for your letter to the Fish and Wildlife Commission regarding mountain goat regulation changes. The Commission has asked that I respond to your questions directly.
Our intention for the rule changes is to make mountain goat regulations more dynamic and flexible in order to adjust hunting seasons in a timely manner if populations are over-harvested. That being said, our intent is not to change permit levels or hunt boundaries once these are published in the annual hunting pamphlet. We want flexibility between seasons rather than within an existing season.
In regard to the hunt unit boundary, currently we are drafting the new hunt area boundaries for Mt. Baker and anticipate these to be out and available to the public this month. If you have specific questions about Mt. Baker, please do not hesitate in contacting our District Biologist, Mike Davison, at (360) 466-4345, ext 280.
Thank you again for taking the time to ask the Department to further clarify the new rule changes.
Sincerely,
Donny Martorello
Carnivore, Furbearer, and Special Species Section Manager"
I have emphasized the specific area of the email in question. I personally knew both applicants of the Mt. Baker West mountain goat tag in 2009. I hunted with both applicants and scouted multiple days with both of them before season. Not only were they not given their hunt boundaries until the beginning of August, but WDFW decided it would be best to split the unit up into 2 units - the Chowder Ridge and Lincoln Creek units, but they randomly drew the two hunters and limited them to each specific unit. That was very frustrating for all parties involved as both hunters had been scouting both units the entire summer! Additionally, the hunt that the applied for - the Mt. Baker West hunt was listed in the regulations with the following: "Subpopulations Open to Hunting: Chowder Ridge, Black Buttes." In the end, both hunters got to hunt the unit they preferred to hunt, so they did not complain too much, but that would not be the case with each and every hunter.
My father has hunted the Coleman Pinnacle subunit in the Mt. Baker East unit multiple times in the past. He applied points only for the 8 or so years that the Mt. Baker herds were closed in hopes of being able to hunt that unit again if it was ever opened. Since WDFW re-opened the Mt. Baker goat herds to hunting again, the Coleman Pinnacle unit is the only unit he has ever applied for. He wants to hunt the unit he grew up hunting and the unit he knows where the goats are. If he gets drawn for the Mt. Baker East unit, under the current management strategy, WDFW would have a "mini-drawing" to decide which sub-unit he wants to hunt. Living in Lynden, we are only an hour drive from the trailhead for the Coleman Pinnacle subpopulation. ON the other hand, reaching the Dillard Creek unit takes a minimum of 2.5 hours to reach because we have to drive around the entire mountain to get there. Additionally, my father and I observe mountain goats whenever we possibly can, we want to hunt the units we know like Coleman Pinnacle, not the units we have never been too like Dillard Creek. Also, although the Lake Ann unit does have some good mountain goats, they tend to migrate in and out of the National Park due to pressure and they are in a unit that we do not know as well as the Coleman Pinnacle unit.
Ultimately, the entire purpose of special hunt applications is giving the hunter the option to draw the unit that he/she wants to hunt. Unfortunately, your current system for distributing mountain goat tags does not give hunters the choice anymore. I understand the desire to leave units flexible to adjust to hunting pressure, but that is still possible if hunters get to choose what subpopulation they want to hunt. One year you can have all five subpopulations open. If the herd is not responding well to hunting, then you can temporarily close a subpopulation and add a second tag to a separate subpopulation. If the problem is that you can't know how herds are doing until after the pamphlets are printed, then do what some other states do and state that these are preliminary tag distribution numbers, if a unit can't support hunting that year, just don't draw for that unit.
This option would provide the best opportunity for everyone all around. Not only would hunters get to choose the specific subpopulations that they want to hunt, but it would spread out the mountain goat hunters into more hunt options creating better draw odds.
Please consider the needs of the average hunter. Hunters want to choose where they get to hunt, based on the areas they know. I spend many days each and every summer photographing mountain goats in the Mt. Baker herds and if I ever get lucky enough to draw a tag, I want to be hunting a unit that I am familiar with, not a unit I have never stepped foot in. Under your current tag distribution system, that cannot be guaranteed. If you adopt the more fair system that I have suggested, not only would you be staying true to your original intentions as stated in the above email, but you would allow hunters the choice that they desire and that your current draw system was designed to provide.
Thank you.
Concerned hunter and wildlife enthusiast,
Shane VG
Post by: Atroxus on February 07, 2010, 10:45:28 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2010, 10:52:09 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 07, 2010, 11:08:19 AM
It depends on how many of the people with lots of points decide to take advantage of the new changes, and apply for the antlerless permits. My guess is that many of them will still not be interested in hunting for antlerless animals. Either way you still have a chance especially if you don't apply for only the most popular hunts. Look at the application numbers from 2009 to determine which hunts will be easier to draw. This is all posted on the WDFW website (www.wdfw.wa.gov (http://www.wdfw.wa.gov))
I think most of those guys with lots of points will take advantage of the new changes, regardless of how they have applied in the past.
I have spoken with a couple guys that have or are near max points for elk that have always only applied for some of the better bull units. They have all said that they will probably start applying for antlerless "since they have the points now". One said he would probably start applying partnership with his wife (who has less points) for antlerless permits.
My manager has somewhere in the neighborhood of 21 or 22 points for elk. He has always applied partnership for one bull unit. He is now hoping to apply for antlerless units in partnership with his son.
Post by: huntnphool on February 07, 2010, 11:15:52 AM
Quote
I think most of those guys with lots of points will take advantage of the new changes, regardless of how they have applied in the past.
:yeah:
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 07, 2010, 11:20:18 AM
I am curious what this means for new hunters like me. Personally I am hoping to start hunting this year just for meat, I am not really interested in trophies. If I am reading this right though it seems that any new hunters like me will not have a snowballs chance in hell of getting drawn for any tags even if we applied for all of them.-If this system goes through, new hunters, or guys with low pt totals my never draw anything ever! maybe a cow tag in about 20 years!
Post by: Bob33 on February 07, 2010, 12:06:24 PM
Is it not reasonable to assume that many of the hunters that have been applying for the "any bull" tags will now put in for the Bethel C tag as well? The odds for drawing the antlerless C tag will be lower overall, because there will be more applicants. Sure, the applicant that has been putting in for the "any bull" tags has had no chance of drawing an antlerless tag previously (unless he risked his points on it), and now he will. But that comes at the expense of those whose primary objective is to draw the antlerless tag.
Everyone will still have a chance. Washington is a bonus point state, unlike preference point states such as Colorado. In those states, tags go exclusively to those with the most points. You can draw in Washington with 1 point, but the odds are low. Bonus points in Washington are squared. Someone with 10 points get 100 names in the hat. Someone with one point gets 1 name in the hat. Can he get drawn? Sure, but the odds are against it.
What it boils down to is that everyone's preferred tag will be harder to draw: the quality hunt tags will be harder to draw because some of the antlerless hunters will go into those pools. The antlerless tags will be harder to draw because some of the quality hunters will go into those pools.
The thing that boils me even more is the process: WDFW has already contracted with Outdoor Central to make the changes. They spent our precious money before they even gathered public input.
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2010, 12:11:12 PM
Post by: Curly on February 07, 2010, 12:43:43 PM
I am curious what this means for new hunters like me. Personally I am hoping to start hunting this year just for meat, I am not really interested in trophies. If I am reading this right though it seems that any new hunters like me will not have a snowballs chance in hell of getting drawn for any tags even if we applied for all of them.-If this system goes through, new hunters, or guys with low pt totals my never draw anything ever! maybe a cow tag in about 20 years!
That is why I'm considering not applying at all anymore (except for a moose permit), because I have little to no points now.
The thing that boils me even more is the process: WDFW has already contracted with Outdoor Central to make the changes. They spent our precious money before they even gathered public input.
I think they've been working on the new system since right after the draw last year........so why couldn't they have set up an option by now with OC to let the applicant choose what category the points should go? I don't think they should have even considered for more than a few minutes what they propose to do with distributing points in all pools.
Public input now is likely too late to try to change anything, unless they just scrap the whole idea and go back to what it was before........but that likely won't happen since they've already spent tons of money going this direction. >:(
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2010, 12:54:41 PM
We still have time to get our comments in. Here is how to do so:
Quote
Hearing location(s):
Natural Resources Building, Room 172
1111 Washington Street SE
Olympia, Washington 98501
(360) 902-2515
Date: March 12-13, 2010 Time: 8:00 am
Submit written comments to:
Name: Wildlife Program Commission Meeting Public Comments
Address: 600 Capitol Way North, Olympia WA 98501-1091
e-mail Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
fax (360) 902-2162
By: Wednesday, February 24, 2010
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 07, 2010, 01:00:36 PM
I know I'm not going to be putting in for any antlerless tags. I'll stick with the bucks and bulls.
Post by: Curly on February 07, 2010, 01:16:26 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2010, 01:31:15 PM
what about if they did a draw in order and you could only draw one permit each year per species, so the quality draw would be first, then the bucks, then the antlerless. I think that might work better.
I know I'm not going to be putting in for any antlerless tags. I'll stick with the bucks and bulls.
I agree, they should do it somehow so that a person cannot draw more than one permit per species. Doing it in order as you suggested would be a great way to do so. For them to modify their proposal like this, I do not think they'd be able to get it going in time for this year's draw. So if they could just hold off until next year they would have time to work with Outdoor Central to get the changes done in a way that would be more fair to everybody. But, of course they won't want to do that as I am sure they are already counting on the additional revenue.
I still do not think it is fair to put one's points in all the sub-categories. They should only go into one. Although it will work out well for my dad and my uncle if they keep it as is.
Post by: Bob33 on February 07, 2010, 01:37:05 PM
Right. But they will say they DID gather public input, with the survey they did last year. Really the only objective they are going to accomplish with these changes, is increased revenue to the WDFW. And that is THEIR objective, not ours!Did anyone know about this last year?
Post by: bobcat on February 07, 2010, 01:40:59 PM
Right. But they will say they DID gather public input, with the survey they did last year. Really the only objective they are going to accomplish with these changes, is increased revenue to the WDFW. And that is THEIR objective, not ours!Did anyone know about this last year?
Yes, we knew there were going to be some changes to the system, supposedly to increase a person's chance of drawing a permit. But they never told us what those changes would be. I think we all assumed they would just decrease the number of choices from 4, to 1 or 2.
Post by: Bob33 on February 07, 2010, 03:44:06 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 07, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
Is it fair to conclude that WDFW instructed Outdoor Central to make these changes without public input? They may have selectively solicited input but that is not truly public.
I would say yes, you are probably right.
Post by: Mike_D on February 08, 2010, 08:45:48 AM
Lemme tell ya, it takes quite a while to go through 30pages!! I've reviewed the plan, (which if the state is implementing software, you can consider is already a done deal) and from a purely statistical perspective everyone loses.. The problem I see (and this has already been said many times) is that the stats look great (provided everyone stays in their existing bucket) unless trophy hunters start applying with meat hunters and vice versa.
They dump your points in each bucket (the points only help you if you apply), so theoretically by granualizing the different hunts (purely mathematically) the odds do go up. However, in reality, you can expect more people to be hitting their usual hunts and additional hunts (as back up plans), therfore the total number of participants per bucket increases, but I dont believe the state is increasing the # tags per bucket, so, expect the odds to decrease.
I also don't like that idea that you can get pulled for different tags ( a buck tag and doe tag) but you can only take one. If you pull the tags, you should be able to harvest. If the state is so damned anal about everybody only getting one animal, then your name should be "locked" after the first draw to prevent "second drawing". I agree with the many others, this is waaaay to complicated and doesn't meet the end goal, unless its just generating revenue and noise....
Might be time to change residence.
md
Post by: Wacenturion on February 08, 2010, 10:40:01 AM
Folks, this is all about money and nothing more. If truth be known, WDFW doesn't have a clue if this will be better or not as far as your and my opportunity is concerned. That's the least of their worries.
Post by: Alan K on February 09, 2010, 12:51:03 PM
They should make it so that if drawn in both pools you have to choose which tag to 'accept' online within a week or so of the drawing in order to receive it and burn your points. This way if you were to draw an antlerless and buck/bull tag you could choose which to 'accept' and which to 'decline'. The benefit would just be that in the event that you do draw both tags, you only burn points in the pool of your choice rather than both.
(A problem with the above would be that some people may not check online in the first week, and may 'snooze and lose' on both permits . . . In that case too bad so sad. That is a part of the risk for putting into both pools. Also, there would have to be a certain known date that the state ran the drawing and published results so that applicants know when their one week begins assuming they were drawn in both pools.)
Then of course they would run a second drawing to dispense the tags that people declined or that were under drawn after that one week grace period to accept or decline the permit. In the second drawing you would have to choose only the bull/buck or antlerless pool to apply for to avoid the same problem which resulted from the first drawing.
(The second drawing would have to be run a minimum of three weeks after the first in reality, one week allowing successful applicants from both pools to accept or decline, another week given to the state to publish left over tags on their website, and lastly a week for those unsuccessful in the first drawing to look at what is left and decide whether or not to apply and to do so.)
Makes more sense to me, assuming they will not let a single person harvest two deer or two elk in the same year, though it would decrease draw odds even more by not deterring people from putting in for both when they run the chance of losing points in both pools.
Post by: billythekidrock on February 09, 2010, 05:13:27 PM
Like you, I agree that some won't look at the results in time and I also know that a lot of people still don't have internet and many that do have internet don't look online for the results. It would alienate alot of people.
I would not want to have to go through a second drawing for permits. It is hard enough to trust them on the first......or second....third. You get the idea.
----
So what about keeping the categories. Allowing you to only apply for one category a year, but purchase points for all categories every year. You gain points in all that you want to purchase for but only draw for the one you chose in for the year. Still only allow two choices.
Post by: Cougeyes on February 09, 2010, 06:02:54 PM
So what about keeping the categories. Allowing you to only apply for one category a year, but purchase points for all categories every year. You gain points in all that you want to purchase for but only draw for the one you chose in for the year. Still only allow two choices.
Glad you brought that up, i was going to ask on here if they were going to still allow the ghost points (basically purchasing points like you mentioned), i haven't come across that but i haven't looked hard either. Being i have 12 deer points for this years draw and can only harvest one deer (unless drawn for a second doe tag) i would rather put in for ghost points for an antlerless draw until i draw my buck permit just so i wouldn't waste the antlerless points.
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2010, 06:55:39 PM
Post by: Bob33 on February 09, 2010, 07:13:23 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2010, 07:43:50 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 10, 2010, 06:29:51 AM
I agree with that. It would have been very simple to both increase odds and increase revenue. All they had to is increase the cost of an application from $5 to $15, and only allow one choice on each application. Other than that leave it as is. Problem solved.
I agree and would even be ok with $10 for 2 choices. Instant doubling of funds and make the hunters take a hard look at what they really want to apply for.
Post by: Wacenturion on February 10, 2010, 07:57:12 AM
I agree with that. It would have been very simple to both increase odds and increase revenue. All they had to is increase the cost of an application from $5 to $15, and only allow one choice on each application. Other than that leave it as is. Problem solved.
Could not agree more..............the multiple choices screwed things up to begin with. My favorite hunt went from approx. 500-600 putting in for 100 permits to almost 2100 putting in for the same 100 permits. I'd gladly pay more and just have ONE choice.
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 10, 2010, 08:01:09 AM
I agree with that. It would have been very simple to both increase odds and increase revenue. All they had to is increase the cost of an application from $5 to $15, and only allow one choice on each application. Other than that leave it as is. Problem solved.-Yep thats the best solution right there!
Post by: Cougeyes on February 10, 2010, 08:36:44 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on February 10, 2010, 03:22:59 PM
I would jump on board with that, wouldn't mind paying more for better chance of drawing. I think WDFW could still get their revenue by changing it to $10-15 per application with 1-2 choices only, wish they could see that, but i bet they still give 4 hunt choices.
One choice and one choice only.........the odds don't get better with 2, 3 or 4 as your preferred choice gets additional applications dropped on top of it from people looking for a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice............which equates to longer between draws.
Post by: KDB on February 10, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
The Frontiersman is right.. The odds of drawing a quality tag will be worse over time.
Under the new system will we have to apply for a general bull or buck tag? :(
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
And while I am in favor of decreasing the number of choices on an application, I don't feel it would increase odds of drawing across the board. Odds for hunts like the Desert and Entiat mule deer and the Blue Mountains bull elk permits would be likely to get better, as people wouldn't put them down as a hail mary.
But other hunts that aren't quite as popular wouldn't necessarily become easier to draw, and in fact they could become harder to draw. It would just all depend on how people change their permit choices in response to the decreased number of choices.
Now, they ARE only allowing 2 choices on the quality permits. So how that will affect odds, who knows. It would have been a good attempt and making things better if not for all the other variables now thrown into the mix, with all the sub-categories of deer/elk permits (Quality, Bull/Buck, Antlerless, 2nd tag Antlerless, Youth, Senior, Disabled, Master Hunter) :o
Quote
Under the new system will we have to apply for a general bull or buck tag?
No, General tags will still be purchased as they have been in the past, with no limit. You will have to purchase a deer and elk tag before applying for the special permits, as always.
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2010, 07:05:30 PM
I agree with that. It would have been very simple to both increase odds and increase revenue. All they had to is increase the cost of an application from $5 to $15, and only allow one choice on each application. Other than that leave it as is. Problem solved.-Yep thats the best solution right there!
Hey Skookum,
You never said how the meeting went last Saturday, or maybe I just missed your post about it ???
Post by: Bob33 on February 10, 2010, 10:43:24 PM
Wildlife Program Commission Meeting Public Comments
600 Capitol Way North
Olympia, WA 98501-1091
Email here: commission@dfw.wa.gov
My advice: be polite but ask the commission to defer implementation until further public input can be heard. Rushing into this for the 2010 season is insane.
If everyone that posted here sent this message....
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2010, 10:59:42 PM
Quote
Submit written comments to:
Name: Wildlife Program Commission Meeting Public Comments
Address: 600 Capitol Way North, Olympia WA 98501-1091
e-mail Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
fax (360) 902-2162
By: Wednesday, February 24, 2010
Not sure which one to send letters to, maybe both?
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 11, 2010, 06:37:19 AM
I ended up having to work saturday when I wanted to go but its the march meetings that are more relevent and im going to take work off and go on the friday morning, march 12I agree with that. It would have been very simple to both increase odds and increase revenue. All they had to is increase the cost of an application from $5 to $15, and only allow one choice on each application. Other than that leave it as is. Problem solved.-Yep thats the best solution right there!
Hey Skookum,
You never said how the meeting went last Saturday, or maybe I just missed your post about it ???
Post by: Bob33 on February 11, 2010, 07:13:07 AM
This shows a different email address:Email your comments to the Commission and cc WildthingQuote
e-mail Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
Not sure which one to send letters to, maybe both?
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2010, 09:39:13 AM
I've got another letter started and when I finalize it I will send it snail mail. Probably send it out tomorrow.
Post by: Bob33 on February 11, 2010, 09:49:45 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on February 11, 2010, 10:08:11 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 11, 2010, 10:32:25 AM
Post by: huntndad on February 11, 2010, 01:43:33 PM
The "quality deer" category offers 51 different hunt choices (about 600 total tags) for modern fire, 12 hunt choices (266 tags but 100 are for one hunt) for archery, and 13 hunt choices (233 tags and 100 from one hunt) for muzzle loader.
"Buck" hunts offer only 14 choices for modern (1124 tags total), only 5 (81 tags) for archery, and 11 (186) for muzzle loader.
"Quality Elk" m.f. has 28 east side choices (about 150 tags) and 20 west side choices (192 tags with Toutle unit hunts making up 133 of those). Archers on the east side have 19 hunt choices (527 tags) and on the west side only 7 hunts (124 tags with 79 from Toutle).
"Bulls" m.f. east 12 hunts 483 tags and west 7 choices with 82 tags. Archers on east have only two choices (24 tags) and west has 4 choices (14 tags). ML east have 2 (16 tags) and west 7 (29 tags).
I didn't go through all the other categories. But this doesn't seem like a good thing. Take the m.f. west side elk "bulls" hunts. The WDFW is only offering 7 choices. Every hunter that purchases this category will could have their name in 4 of the hunt choices. I'm not going to add up all the hunters and calculate the total numbers, but their could easily be 20,000 names in any given hunt category. Archers hunting elk will have no choices in the "Bull" category, because everyone of them will be in the drawing for the same 4 hunt choices.
Sorry if this came out confusing, but I have a lot going on around me as I type this.
Post by: Bob33 on February 11, 2010, 02:00:39 PM
Snail mails here:
Wildlife Program Commission Meeting Public Comments
600 Capitol Way North
Olympia, WA 98501-1091
Email to: commission@dfw.wa.gov
cc: Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
My advice: be polite but ask the commission to defer implementation until further public input can be heard. Rushing into this for the 2010 season is insane.
If everyone that posted here sent this message....
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2010, 03:17:31 PM
Hi everyone. I'm new to this site, in fact, I just found out about it. I've only read through about 20 pages of this topic, so I might not have caught everything. Any way, I went and checked out the WDFW website and downloaded their proposals for next year.
Just to clarify......the proposal is for this year. :yike:
Anyway, welcome to the site Huntndad.
Post by: spikehunter on February 11, 2010, 04:32:39 PM
Post by: huntndad on February 11, 2010, 06:01:56 PM
Ya, my mistake. I just don't seem to think of it as "this year" until about August. I just can't see how this isn't going to turn into a huge mess this year. It seems like the WDFW is trying to make this change too quickly.
Post by: bear on February 11, 2010, 06:11:59 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on February 12, 2010, 12:16:33 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 12, 2010, 05:59:10 AM
Ok here is a ? lets say a guy is a senior and disabled how many permits could he buy and put in for, For deer and elk?
If you read the thread you would see that an old disabled guy can apply for 6 of the categories. If he were a MH as well then he could apply for 7 of the 8.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2010, 06:04:16 AM