Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
Post by: whacker1 on January 15, 2010, 04:04:04 PM
Post by: Craig on January 15, 2010, 04:52:56 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 04:54:31 PM
Post by: Craig on January 15, 2010, 04:58:04 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 05:15:41 PM
So does that mean I will have 8 points in every deer drawing?Yes
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 05:20:58 PM
So does that mean I will have 8 points in every deer drawing?Yes
Are you sure?
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 05:22:35 PM
Post by: Crowns on January 15, 2010, 05:25:42 PM
Quote
What happens to the points hunters have accumulated if these changes are made?
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
Do hunters lose all of their deer points if drawn for one of the deer categories?
No, hunters will accrue and lose points within an individual category. For example, if a hunter is drawn for an antlerless permit, they would lose their points in the antlerless category, but retain them in all other deer categories.
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 05:26:05 PM
Post by: Skillet on January 15, 2010, 05:35:07 PM
"Because of the conditions and restrictions associated with various hunt choices, hunters have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the current system works. Many hunters surveyed have complained that the odds of securing a permit for especially popular hunts are extremely low. Others say they would like to apply for antlerless permits, but don’t want to lose the points they are saving for popular buck and bull permits."
Notice they never say which point they are trying to address... well, they are not helping the odds. They are going after the $$ - and putting a slap on the back of the good ol' boys who want to meat hunt and not screw up their points for the buck and bull hunts.
More money to the WDFW (a stated fact of the change) = more permit apps = lower odds. You can't fool with those numbers.
Plus, the carrying over of the old points to ALL 8 tags for is bull butter. Make the hunter choose the allocation - all for trophy, 1/2 trophy, 1/2 meat, all for meat, etc.
Yes, I'm bitter. I will never get drawn for the only hunt I really want with my big 3 points!
Post by: Crowns on January 15, 2010, 05:37:25 PM
So what and where are you supposed to hunt if you don't apply for anything?
General season?
From the sounds of things, there will not be a "General Season". Youll have to draw to get your "General Season" permit. And then the "Quality hunts" will be for example the Nov. Rifle Buck Permits or the Sept Rifle Bull permits.
I think I like the idea personally. Id like to read more though.
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 05:38:18 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 05:42:13 PM
That's the way I understand it from reading the WDFW information on the changes. But no I'm not sure. I don't think it should be that way. I think the antlerless pools everybody should start out at zero. That, or people should be given a choice in which pool their points go.
Thanks.
Yea, I don't like it either. Maybe I just don't understand it. What happens if you are drawn? Do you lose all points in both pools? What if you are drawn for both?
Post by: Crowns on January 15, 2010, 05:43:29 PM
I sure never saw anything that said general season was being eliminated. ???
The proposal states Buck/Bull permits. Im just taking that as being the general season hunts. What other permits/seasons do we really have now that they could be? Hell, they might even lift the spike and 3 point min restrictions if they reduce the amount of hunters hunting during the "General Season" through these Buck/Bull permits. Im more or less making assumptions here though, so correct me if im wrong.
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2010, 05:44:16 PM
Quote
hunters have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the current system works.
Typical liberal way of putting things, shouldn't it actually read "the way the current system doesn't work." :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2010, 05:51:06 PM
That's the way I understand it from reading the WDFW information on the changes. But no I'm not sure. I don't think it should be that way. I think the antlerless pools everybody should start out at zero. That, or people should be given a choice in which pool their points go.
Thanks.
Yea, I don't like it either. Maybe I just don't understand it. What happens if you are drawn? Do you lose all points in both pools? What if you are drawn for both?
You only lose points in the pool you are drawn in. If you are drawn in both, well, then one of your permits will be wasted because you still could only have one tag. The exception would be the "2nd deer tag" permits that allow you to purchase a second tag.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 15, 2010, 05:57:33 PM
What a bunch of BS. If they are starting a new system then they need to let everyone keep their points in the "Quality" catagory but start everyone out with zero in all other catagories.
Why would they propose this garbage? I know many guys that will probably give up permits (and possibly hunting) after this.
Post by: Curly on January 16, 2010, 01:01:09 PM
The thing that needs to be done is to limit the choices down to 1 choice.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 16, 2010, 01:03:19 PM
There is not much wrong with the current system. The only thing wrong is a bunch of whining going on by guys that only put in for the hardest to draw permits not getting drawn. Occasionally a guy with 1 point gets drawn for a hard to draw permit and the guys with 14 points get all pissy.
The thing that needs to be done is to limit the choices down to 1 choice.
I agree....but would be willing to settle for two choices.
Post by: Curly on January 16, 2010, 01:04:55 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 16, 2010, 01:13:31 PM
Post by: Crowns on January 16, 2010, 11:05:14 PM
This proposal does NOTHING to the general season hunts. Only special permit hunts.
Im sure youre posting this in regards to my previous posts. I really want to think youre right here because I wouldnt think WDFW would propose such a drastic change. Maybe I am just playing devils advocate here also but I like to take in all perspectives. My posts are based off a backed up assumption.
What hunts in our current regs could constitute as "Buck/Bull" permits and not be "Quality Hunts"? Who makes the decision to call a hunt quality or not? I am mainly a Modern Firearm hunter in the state so im going to base my opinion with Modern Firearm laws.
Deer:
Obviously, the Nov Rut Permits would qualify as being "Quality Hunts". The remainder is what? A few permits are for any deer that would normally be any buck on the westside. There can be a "Buck" Permit and an "Antlerless" Permit and you apply for what you are after, which can be both. But, like the proposal states youre still only entitled to one critter. Exception being "Second Antlerless". Keep in mind that im sure the draw odds on the current general season laws would be extremely good.
Elk:
Sept Rifle Bull Permits would be "Quality Hunts". The eastside any bull permits will likely be "Bull" permits. Why not increase the permit numbers and do away with the spike only seasons? They could also increase antlerless permit numbers as to not disappoint meat hunter. The spike season is becoming a goat show anyhow. Yes, I know that this could really hurt Washingtons trophy potential because the spike seasons have done wonders on producing big bulls. I wouldnt wish for the permit numbers to be increased by much. Just enough to fill in for the lack of the spike season. I have not hunted the westside in several years now so im not quite up to date on how the changes could apply. I also do not hunt elk in our state unless I draw a permit.
I would classify myself as a trophy hunter, so im certain this sways my opinion. Anyways, when I read the proposal and the posts on this thread, I really couldnt help but suspect a change to the general seasons. As always, just my :twocents:. Take it easy, fellow hunters. We are in for a wild ride as always, im sure.
Post by: bobcat on January 17, 2010, 09:54:15 AM
Post by: huntnphool on January 21, 2010, 05:54:01 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 21, 2010, 05:59:11 PM
I am really curious to see how it pans out.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 21, 2010, 06:00:47 PM
Post by: Skillet on January 21, 2010, 06:51:44 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 21, 2010, 07:05:29 PM
Cool - I get to vote twice. This is like some other elections in this state :chuckle:
LOL :chuckle:
Post by: Curly on January 21, 2010, 07:18:25 PM
I'd like it a little bit better if they didn't allocate everyone's points across the board into all categories. Why not just make the applicant pick where they want the points to go? Would that make programming a lot harder?
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 21, 2010, 07:23:47 PM
I don't like it.If we are stuck with this system that is the change I hope we can get! At the very least!!
I'd like it a little bit better if they didn't allocate everyone's points across the board into all categories. Why not just make the applicant pick where they want the points to go? Would that make programming a lot harder?
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 21, 2010, 07:25:18 PM
Post by: Cougeyes on January 21, 2010, 07:43:25 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 21, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 21, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
yes, you draw bull, you go to zero in that catagory and would still have 8 in cow catagory.
And it seems that if you draw both you will lose both but can only fill one permit.
Post by: Cougeyes on January 21, 2010, 07:59:42 PM
Post by: Cougeyes on January 21, 2010, 08:01:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 21, 2010, 08:14:04 PM
One thing I think they should do, but it's probably not possible, is when they do the draw, if someone is drawn for one category, say the quality deer, then they should automatically be disqualified from drawing any of the other two categories (regular buck and antlerless.) It makes no sense for a person to be able to draw two special permits and only have one tag. I realize there are some 2nd deer tag permits but I'm not talking about these.
Post by: Curly on January 21, 2010, 09:30:01 PM
One thing I think they should do, but it's probably not possible, is when they do the draw, if someone is drawn for one category, say the quality deer, then they should automatically be disqualified from drawing any of the other two categories (regular buck and antlerless.) It makes no sense for a person to be able to draw two special permits and only have one tag. I realize there are some 2nd deer tag permits but I'm not talking about these.
That is a good idea..........and it probably is possilbe but it would take a bit more time to get the software setup correctly.
I sure hope that if they do go to some form of what they are proposing that they wait until next year and take plenty of time to get the software programmed correctly and get all the bugs worked out..........I don't want to see redraws and re-redraws again.
Post by: Cougeyes on January 21, 2010, 09:59:41 PM
One thing I think they should do, but it's probably not possible, is when they do the draw, if someone is drawn for one category, say the quality deer, then they should automatically be disqualified from drawing any of the other two categories (regular buck and antlerless.) It makes no sense for a person to be able to draw two special permits and only have one tag. I realize there are some 2nd deer tag permits but I'm not talking about these.
I agree, because if someone were to draw two permits of the same species, obviously they couldn't shoot two deer so would have to choose either the quality buck tag or the antlerless tag. I like your point on disqualifying the person from being drawn for the other tag of the same species, that way it allows someone else to draw it.
I think you're onto something (maybe), potentially helping odds for some people. .......say Tom, Joe, Sally, whomever... has been putting in for buck and doe permits, and has 4 points each, but would rather harvest a buck. If there were a "disqualification" implemented then that would potentially make Tom only apply for the buck permit and not the doe permit (granted there will be separate applicatons for antlered and antlerless) because he doesn't want the risk of drawing the antlerless first and being disqualified for the buck tag, this may possibly increase the odds then for those that really want to draw an antlerless permit, i think it should be one or the other how it is now, your deer points are deer points (general) I dont like the idea of split antlered and antlerless applications and separate points for each, it will not help the odds. Those people that really rely on antlerless permits (easier to draw tags) to put food on the table will now (hopefuly not) be faced with less odds of drawing.
Also, there will be those people that will put in for antlerless tags now, say deer, hunt the general season for a buck and if they harvest a buck that antlerless permit goes to "waste", granted an unfilled tag is fine by me, but it could have gone to someone who maybe would have strictly hunted for antlerless game.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on January 21, 2010, 10:38:40 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 21, 2010, 11:05:40 PM
Deer:
1) buck permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8] Master Hunter permits.
Elk:
1) bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8] Master Hunter permits.
That's 16, then add in the moose, sheep, and mountain goat. That's 3 more, for a total of 19.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 22, 2010, 05:39:19 AM
Isn't there three categories for both deer and elk? Quality, antlered, and antlerless? For deer I'm not sure what would go in just the regular buck category. Seems most, if not all, deer permits should be either quality or antlerless.
One thing I think they should do, but it's probably not possible, is when they do the draw, if someone is drawn for one category, say the quality deer, then they should automatically be disqualified from drawing any of the other two categories (regular buck and antlerless.) It makes no sense for a person to be able to draw two special permits and only have one tag. I realize there are some 2nd deer tag permits but I'm not talking about these.
From what I read..there are 8 categories for deer, 8 for elk. If you draw two permits then you get both but can only fill one. If you get skunked on a bull hunt then you could still take a cow if you were drawn for both.
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 11:41:55 AM
I agree we don't know enough yet to know whether it's good or bad. I can't figure out what the regular buck permits will be. It seems they would either be antlerless, or quality. Since apparently they're proposing to have antlerless permits, buck permits, and quality permits. What will just the regular buck permits be? Anyway, yeah I don't think we know enough yet to pass judgement. One thing though, where is this "eight pools" coming from? It sounds to me like at least 19 pools
I disagree. We already know enough to know that it is a bad idea. Just because we don't have the exact specifics on permit numbers doesn't mean that we don't have an idea of what they will be. I still think almost everyone will apply in every category they are eligible to apply for. If that is the case, the odds of drawing probably just got a lot worse for everyone.
The only odds that got better are the odds that WDFW will make more money on the draw. My initial reaction to the proposal was to say I'm done applying in this state because I was pissed, but now I realize I would only be hurting myself by not keeping up with everyone else.......it really sucks because of the added expense of permit application, but I guess that is the game we have to continue to play.
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
I would suspect that the ones saying that they like the proposal would be the ones with a lot of points since they will be given those points in all categories of that species that you have the points. The odds of drawing that tag you've been holding out for (entiat, swakane, desert, etc.) have just got worse or at the minimum they have stayed the same. So, I can't see why anyone would be for the proposed system unless they just like seeing WDFW make more money. ???
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 02:10:31 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 22, 2010, 02:15:20 PM
Post by: Crunchy on January 22, 2010, 02:16:49 PM
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 02:24:46 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 22, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
If its a little unfair for people with few points, shouldnt it be?
Yes, if it were only a little. This new proposal seems to be way out of whack and it will cost you more.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 22, 2010, 05:01:04 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 22, 2010, 05:02:59 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 22, 2010, 05:03:27 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on January 22, 2010, 05:06:25 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 22, 2010, 05:08:56 PM
In trying to think on the positive side, I'm hoping my dad and uncle will both be able to draw a good cow permit, with their 8 points each, and I will help them on their hunts, since I don't have enough points to draw anything myself. My only real hope is for moose, for myself.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 22, 2010, 05:21:35 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
Post by: huntnphool on January 22, 2010, 05:23:19 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on January 22, 2010, 05:28:43 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,43396.msg522352/topicseen.html#new
Brandon
Post by: fc2038 on January 22, 2010, 09:38:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 22, 2010, 10:00:43 PM
Post by: fc2038 on January 22, 2010, 10:05:01 PM
Post by: mulehunter on January 22, 2010, 10:07:05 PM
Mulehunter ;)
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 10:09:34 PM
Post by: mulehunter on January 22, 2010, 10:12:43 PM
Yeah, if they got rid of the a lot of the cougars and all the wolves there would be more deer and elk available for harvest, thus more permits and better chance of drawing..........there problem solved. :tup:
:yeah:
Mulehunter 8)
Post by: bobcat on January 22, 2010, 10:17:46 PM
Post by: Curly on January 22, 2010, 10:31:59 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 22, 2010, 11:09:29 PM
Post by: high country on January 22, 2010, 11:18:04 PM
I know. But the only tool the WDFW has to increase deer and elk is to reduce the number of hunters.
or their success. afterall our 72 hour elk season is pretty long.
Post by: ICEMAN on January 23, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Let's face it, Wildlife wants less deer, less elk, less hunters, more wolves, more money. They want the cash and want the wolves to manage the herds.
I say scrap the weighted system for everyone. I would rather they increase the cost of the permit app, and go back to the earlier system with no points. This weighted draw has just been a cash cow for the state. I liked it better when most unscrupulous hunters forgot or missed the app deadline and I had a better chance of getting drawn. I am greedy and selfish.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 23, 2010, 07:13:02 AM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
Post by: groundhog on January 23, 2010, 04:19:54 PM
In the new system everyone retains their Bull points until they draw a Bull tag. To me it sounds like it just got tougher to draw that tag. Am I missing something?
Post by: huntnphool on January 23, 2010, 04:22:03 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 04:27:33 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
Post by: Bigshooter on January 23, 2010, 04:59:29 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
Post by: huntnphool on January 23, 2010, 05:07:13 PM
Quote
I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits.
The way people have handled their permit choices in the past will be completely different now, IMO. To each his own Bigshooter, you and your buddies are free to continue to apply the same way that you have for ever. I find it hard to believe that if you and your buddies are given free points in additional choices that you will simply not use them, maybe I'm wrong. :dunno:
Post by: Huntbear on January 23, 2010, 05:14:15 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on January 23, 2010, 05:19:29 PM
QuoteI don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits.
The way people have handled their permit choices in the past will be completely different now, IMO. To each his own Bigshooter, you and your buddies are free to continue to apply the same way that you have for ever. I find it hard to believe that if you and your buddies are given free points in additional choices that you will simply not use them, maybe I'm wrong. :dunno:
I have no intrested in killing an anterless animal. I have never applied for an anterless permit and most likely never will. If it were up to me there would be no anterless permits. And that is my opinion. All I have been saying is lets wait and see how the draw is going to work exactly before we say this new system is not going to work. They have given out very limited information on this.
Post by: huntnphool on January 23, 2010, 05:20:22 PM
Post by: Dansk on January 23, 2010, 05:43:22 PM
So, more entries in more pools.... makes it better to draw a tag (but not any one specific tag)- is it proportional or more than the increased applications for all pools im applying for? Hard to tell until we see the breakdown after the fact.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 05:48:03 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2010, 05:51:59 PM
That's how I see it. It may be easier to draw "a" elk permit, especially for the people with several points, and even more so for those that apply in every possible category. It will just cost more money.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 23, 2010, 05:53:45 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Where have you seen that it says you can apply for all 8 draws. I know it says that you can draw more than one tag. But that might only mean you get to put in for two draws. But can you show mean where it says with out doudt that you will be able to apply for every draw?
Post by: Curly on January 23, 2010, 06:01:57 PM
Quote
To address these issues, WDFW proposes to require separate applications for specific types of deer,elk, big horn sheep, moose, and cougar permits and conduct separate drawings in each category. Specifically, hunters may purchase and submit separate applications for a variety of categories, to include: 1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits. WDFW would then conduct a separate drawing for permits in each category.
Let's say you are a senior, disabled, master hunter........you can apply for 7 of the above quoted permits.......only the youth permit would be out.
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2010, 06:02:50 PM
Quote
1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits.
I could see where a person could easily apply for at least 4 of the categories, and up to 7 would be possible. But you would have to be over 65 years old (senior hunt), disabled, and a Master hunter. That would be 3 of the categories you would qualify for, then the other 4 that anybody could apply for, for a total of 7 applications a person could submit for both deer and elk.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 23, 2010, 06:04:00 PM
From the WDFW site:Quote1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits.
I could see where a person could easily apply for at least 4 of the categories, and up to 7 would be possible. But you would have to be over 65 years old (senior hunt), disabled, and a Master hunter. That would be 3 of the categories you would qualify for, then the other 4 that anybody could apply for, for a total of 7 applications a person could submit for both deer and elk.
You're right "could".
Post by: Curly on January 23, 2010, 06:10:14 PM
Quote
What happens to the points hunters have accumulated if these changes are made?
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
I'll say it again, since I don't think I said it in this thread......... :) How is it "fair" to credit an applicant his points in each of the eight deer categories? That is my biggest complaint. Does WDFW feel they need to pay back the guys who have complained the most for not being able to draw by letting them draw anterless permits? Makes absolutely no sense to me and seems totally unfair.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 06:17:11 PM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Where have you seen that it says you can apply for all 8 draws. I know it says that you can draw more than one tag. But that might only mean you get to put in for two draws. But can you show mean where it says with out doudt that you will be able to apply for every draw?
Have you even read any of it?
And I am pretty sure they will apply for as many as possible. The general population of hunters that apply for permits did the same thing when it went from one hunt choice to four and that made the odds tougher in many units. Believe me, if it goes as they have stated, things will get a lot tougher in many units and in many categories in general.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 06:20:52 PM
From the WDFW site:Quote1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits.
I could see where a person could easily apply for at least 4 of the categories, and up to 7 would be possible. But you would have to be over 65 years old (senior hunt), disabled, and a Master hunter. That would be 3 of the categories you would qualify for, then the other 4 that anybody could apply for, for a total of 7 applications a person could submit for both deer and elk.
I have a buddy that is a couple years away from 7 categories and I am eligible for 5.
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2010, 06:22:45 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 06:27:13 PM
But the question that remains is what permits will be in what categories?
I heard 663 late buck would be a "quality" hunt.
Post by: Curly on January 23, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
But the question that remains is what permits will be in what categories?I heard 663 late buck would be a "quality" hunt.
That is funny. The success rates on that hunt are very small. That permit might become easier to draw if it is lumped in with the "quality" hunts. I'd hate to have that one on my application for the quality permits.........but I'd love to have it for just a regular permit.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 06:45:13 PM
But the question that remains is what permits will be in what categories?I heard 663 late buck would be a "quality" hunt.
That is funny. The success rates on that hunt are very small. That permit might become easier to draw if it is lumped in with the "quality" hunts. I'd hate to have that one on my application for the quality permits.........but I'd love to have it for just a regular permit.
lol
On a serious note..
My boss has been told by F&W and DNR that they not allowing quads in the Satsop GMU portion of the CF. He thinks that unit may go "quality".
I doubt it, but you never know.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 23, 2010, 06:52:50 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 07:03:47 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 23, 2010, 07:09:46 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 23, 2010, 07:14:49 PM
Dont fret it all part of the larger plan to remove us from the forests.
Us or guns? Probably both.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 23, 2010, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: Dansk on January 23, 2010, 08:03:22 PM
Dansk,
That's how I see it. It may be easier to draw "a" elk permit, especially for the people with several points, and even more so for those that apply in every possible category. It will just cost more money.
Yeah - it will cost a little more money... but if people are worried about a measly (and optional) 10-20 bucks more a year, they should choose a diff. hobby. :chuckle:. I mean special draw tags have not risen in cost for a long long time. Been 5 bucks each for a while. I'd rather pay higher consumption taxes in lieu of a state income tax any day. The state's gonna find a way to get thier dough - be it tobacco, gas, alchohol, etc. Sux the cost to apply is increasing- but that's to be expected with anything. Do people really expect liscense costs will stay static? (Don't get me wrong- I like to donate to uncle sam and the gov.as little as legally possible ;) )
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on January 23, 2010, 08:23:08 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2010, 08:40:21 PM
From the information posted on the WDFW website:
Quote
It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property.
And from the form letter the WDFW has emailed to some who have emailed questions to the WDFW regarding the new proposal:
Quote
On a national basis, the most significant thing that fish and wildlife agencies can do to recruit and retain hunters is improve access opportunities. In Washington, we have been working with hunters and conservation organizations to expand our access program for several years, this proposal will help us achieve that goal.
Post by: Dansk on January 23, 2010, 08:48:59 PM
They apparently already have plans for the additional revenue.
From the information posted on the WDFW website:QuoteIt is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property.
And from the form letter the WDFW has emailed to some who have emailed questions to the WDFW regarding the new proposal:QuoteOn a national basis, the most significant thing that fish and wildlife agencies can do to recruit and retain hunters is improve access opportunities. In Washington, we have been working with hunters and conservation organizations to expand our access program for several years, this proposal will help us achieve that goal.
That would be a great move if its true. Well worth the $$. Something like the block mgmt in MT and access yes in WY. Wa needs it.
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on January 23, 2010, 09:01:50 PM
They apparently already have plans for the additional revenue.
From the information posted on the WDFW website:QuoteIt is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property.
And from the form letter the WDFW has emailed to some who have emailed questions to the WDFW regarding the new proposal:QuoteOn a national basis, the most significant thing that fish and wildlife agencies can do to recruit and retain hunters is improve access opportunities. In Washington, we have been working with hunters and conservation organizations to expand our access program for several years, this proposal will help us achieve that goal.
The proposal for additional access to private property, total B.S., just another fancy talk proposition with no intent, first of all what private properties, and do you think that these people are just going to lay down to the WDFW and give them the ok to provide access, no way not with all the liability involved, fire danger, erosion, fence and livestock damage etc. Blowing Smoke. :rolleyes:
Post by: billythekidrock on January 24, 2010, 06:15:27 AM
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
"Anticipated" & "additional" are too vague as to determine where and if this money will be used.
I can hear the excuses now. "Well we had planned for the money to be used this way, but we did not anticipate the further downturn of the economy so now the money will go to the general fund".
or
"Additional revenue? There is no additional revenue after we pay for the system upgrades and addtional costs".
Post by: Hunting Cowboy on January 24, 2010, 06:19:12 AM
I absolutely agree.
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
"Anticipated" & "additional" are too vague as to determine where and if this money will be used.
I can hear the excuses now. "Well we had planned for the money to be used this way, but we did not anticipate the further downturn of the economy so now the money will go to the general fund".
or
"Additional revenue? There is no additional revenue after we pay for the system upgrades and addtional costs".
I agree, well said!
Post by: Bigshooter on January 24, 2010, 06:59:54 AM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Where have you seen that it says you can apply for all 8 draws. I know it says that you can draw more than one tag. But that might only mean you get to put in for two draws. But can you show mean where it says with out doudt that you will be able to apply for every draw?
Have you even read any of it?
And I am pretty sure they will apply for as many as possible. The general population of hunters that apply for permits did the same thing when it went from one hunt choice to four and that made the odds tougher in many units. Believe me, if it goes as they have stated, things will get a lot tougher in many units and in many categories in general.
Apparently not the same one that you have read. Show me a quote where it says that you will be able to apply for every single draw. All I have read is there will be 8 different draws, but nowhere have I read where it says you can apply for every draw every year.
Post by: ICEMAN on January 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM
I absolutely agree.
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
"Anticipated" & "additional" are too vague as to determine where and if this money will be used.
I can hear the excuses now. "Well we had planned for the money to be used this way, but we did not anticipate the further downturn of the economy so now the money will go to the general fund".
or
"Additional revenue? There is no additional revenue after we pay for the system upgrades and addtional costs".
I agree, well said!
Or, "we anticipated increased hunter access, but because one hunter hunted unethically, we decided to keep all the monies and close all the newly acquired hunt areas."
Post by: bobcat on January 24, 2010, 08:38:44 AM
Show me a quote where it says that you will be able to apply for every single draw. All I have read is there will be 8 different draws, but nowhere have I read where it says you can apply for every draw every year.
From the WDFW info posted on their website:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html
How does the department propose to change the current system?
To address these issues, WDFW proposes to require separate applications for specific types of deer,elk, big horn sheep, moose, and cougar permits and conduct separate drawings in each category. Specifically, hunters may purchase and submit separate applications for a variety of categories, to include: 1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits. WDFW would then conduct a separate drawing for permits in each category.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 24, 2010, 08:46:36 AM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Where have you seen that it says you can apply for all 8 draws. I know it says that you can draw more than one tag. But that might only mean you get to put in for two draws. But can you show mean where it says with out doudt that you will be able to apply for every draw?
Have you even read any of it?
And I am pretty sure they will apply for as many as possible. The general population of hunters that apply for permits did the same thing when it went from one hunt choice to four and that made the odds tougher in many units. Believe me, if it goes as they have stated, things will get a lot tougher in many units and in many categories in general.
Apparently not the same one that you have read. Show me a quote where it says that you will be able to apply for every single draw. All I have read is there will be 8 different draws, but nowhere have I read where it says you can apply for every draw every year.
You are kidding right? I can’t tell if you are purposefully being difficult, just haven’t done the research or both, but if you need a quote then here are a few.
“Specifically, hunters may purchase and submit separate applications for a variety of categories, to include: 1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits. WDFW would then conduct a separate drawing for permits in each category”.
“Those who are interested in more than one kind of hunt would have a chance of being drawn for each of them. “
“Hunters who draw more than one permit would be able to choose which hunt or hunts to participate in, but would have to stop hunting once they harvest an animal.”
“Department managers are hopeful that these improvements will result in greater customer satisfaction and increase applications for special hunting permits.” And btw, no one said you could apply for “every draw” as you stated. You can only apply for categories in which you would be eligible. Obviously if you are a senior you couldn’t apply for the youth category and if you haven’t completed the MH program then you couldn’t apply for those as well.
Post by: PolarBear on January 24, 2010, 08:56:15 AM
I absolutely agree.Hell, they stole the money from wildlife plate to piss away in the general fund, they will do exactly the same with this! I'm sure that was the plan all along. :bash: :bash: :bash:
"It is anticipated that the additional revenue would be used to increase hunter access to private property."
"Anticipated" & "additional" are too vague as to determine where and if this money will be used.
I can hear the excuses now. "Well we had planned for the money to be used this way, but we did not anticipate the further downturn of the economy so now the money will go to the general fund".
or
"Additional revenue? There is no additional revenue after we pay for the system upgrades and addtional costs".
Post by: huntnphool on January 24, 2010, 11:07:00 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on January 24, 2010, 11:20:06 AM
I voted not sure. I think most of you guys are getting to worked up about this without knowing all the details. I'm not saying that it won't be bad but, WDFW has given out very little information about how this is going to work. I will make a decision after I find out all the details.
Hmm. You don't think 8 categories, points distributed across the board or tougher odds are worth getting "worked up" over?
It is clearly stated that those things could happen.
You know for sure that odds will be "tougher". I don't think they have given us enough information to come to the conclusion that odds will be tougher.
How can they not get tougher given the scenerio two posts up?
If you want to assume that everyone puts a couple of cow choices down then your most likely right. And I don't think this is spot on. I don't think that it is even close to how the majority of people apply for permits. Of all the guys that I know that apply for elk permits every year this would not be the case 9 times out of 10.
How people used to apply no longer matters. It is how they will apply.
On first reaction most I have talked to seem to think they will have better odds since they are eligible to apply for 5, 6 and some even 7 of the cagetories for both deer and elk.
Once they think about how they will apply, and realize that others may do the same, they understand how hard it could be to draw and how important it will be to apply to every category every year just to keep up on points.
Cash cow business model for F&W.
Where have you seen that it says you can apply for all 8 draws. I know it says that you can draw more than one tag. But that might only mean you get to put in for two draws. But can you show mean where it says with out doudt that you will be able to apply for every draw?
Have you even read any of it?
And I am pretty sure they will apply for as many as possible. The general population of hunters that apply for permits did the same thing when it went from one hunt choice to four and that made the odds tougher in many units. Believe me, if it goes as they have stated, things will get a lot tougher in many units and in many categories in general.
Apparently not the same one that you have read. Show me a quote where it says that you will be able to apply for every single draw. All I have read is there will be 8 different draws, but nowhere have I read where it says you can apply for every draw every year.
You are kidding right? I can’t tell if you are purposefully being difficult, just haven’t done the research or both, but if you need a quote then here are a few.
“Specifically, hunters may purchase and submit separate applications for a variety of categories, to include: 1) buck or bull permits, 2) antlerless permits, 3) second tag antlerless permits, 4) quality hunt permits, 5) youth hunt permits, 6) senior hunt permits, 7) disabled hunter permits, and 8) Master Hunter permits. WDFW would then conduct a separate drawing for permits in each category”.
“Those who are interested in more than one kind of hunt would have a chance of being drawn for each of them.“
“Hunters who draw more than one permit would be able to choose which hunt or hunts to participate in, but would have to stop hunting once they harvest an animal.”
“Department managers are hopeful that these improvements will result in greater customer satisfaction and increase applications for special hunting permits.” And btw, no one said you could apply for “every draw” as you stated. You can only apply for categories in which you would be eligible. Obviously if you are a senior you couldn’t apply for the youth category and if you haven’t completed the MH program then you couldn’t apply for those as well.
Like i have said where does it say you can apply for every draw. I have read what WDFW has posted. But it doesn't say if you will be able to apply for all draws that you are eligible for. How do we not know that it won't be a combination of two of the eight choices. If they let us apply for two choice they would be receiving twice as much money from permit apps. as they were before. You maybe right and we will be able to apply for all of the draws that we are eligible for. But I have not seen where it says that.
Post by: huntnphool on January 24, 2010, 11:29:24 AM
Anyone with a lot of points though, and given those points across the board, you can bet will be spending the $5.00 on each just to increase their point totals for the time they actually can put them to use.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 24, 2010, 11:31:29 AM
It does say "a variety or choices" but that does not mean "all", I see what you are saying and could just be another political spin on words.
Anyone with a lot of points though, and given those points across the board, you can bet will be spending the $5.00 on each just to increase their point totals for the time they actually can put them to use.
I agree.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 24, 2010, 01:48:56 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 24, 2010, 03:43:11 PM
It doesn't matter if it is to categories or 5..it will still make the odds tougher.
Agreed
Post by: bobcat on January 24, 2010, 03:46:54 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 26, 2010, 04:27:02 PM
MIGHT make the odds tougher. We won't know until the 2010 draw is over.
How can it not make them tougher? If you don't increase the amount of permits or decrease the applicants the odds will never get better. F&W won't increase permits significantly and they definitely don't want less applicants because that leads to less income.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 26, 2010, 05:25:12 PM
Every year I applied for 4 deer permits on one application for about $5.
Every year I applied for 1 elk permit on one application for about $5.
This year I will probably apply for 16-20 deer permits in 5 categories for about $25 (if the application fee doesn’t go up).
So even if I don’t apply for elk permits the WDFW made at least an additional $20.
If I apply for elk then there are another 16-20 choices in 4 or 5 categories for about $25. (along with everyone else's 16-20 choices for many of the same permits) :bash:
If I can afford it, that is an additional $40 over last year… for the same permits.
Multiply that by the amount of applicants and you can see that it is all about money. :twocents:
In the past everyone had up to 4 choices for deer and 4 choices for elk. Under this plan some could put in for up to 28 choices for deer and 28 choices for elk. Without adding a whole bunch more permits how does this improve the odds? :dunno:
The only way I can see the odds getting better are if they price most folks out of the permit process or if someone gets drawn for multiple permits and lose all points in those categories.
I would feel better about this if they made us choose one category for our points and the rest start at zero and dropped the choices from 4 to 2.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 26, 2010, 05:33:37 PM
1. do i have to by an application for each category i wish to put in for? ie. $5 app for big buck draw and another $5 app for a doe draw so my $5 fee from last year just doubled.
2. if if put in for both big buck and doe draws and i get drawn for both do i get to harvest two deer, do i get a transport tag for the big buck and the doe or is the state going to make me choose between the two and what happens to my points in the category of the tag i turned down?
Steve
Post by: Crowns on January 26, 2010, 05:37:43 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 26, 2010, 05:44:18 PM
i may have missed these points while i was reading the "proposed" changes so heres my two questions.
1. do i have to by an application for each category i wish to put in for? ie. $5 app for big buck draw and another $5 app for a doe draw so my $5 fee from last year just doubled.
2. if if put in for both big buck and doe draws and i get drawn for both do i get to harvest two deer, do i get a transport tag for the big buck and the doe or is the state going to make me choose between the two and what happens to my points in the category of the tag i turned down?
Steve
Yes, seperate application for each category.
If drawn for multiple permits you get to choose which (or all) to pursue but can only kill one animal (unless it is a second deer permit) and you lose all points in all categories you were drawn in.
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2010, 05:46:05 PM
Now whether this new plan will decrease odds, I may be in the minority, but I don't think odds of drawing a permit will decrease significantly overall. Sure some of the most sought after permits will most likely get more applicants, because they will be in the "quality" category, which most everyone will apply for. But overall, you've still got the same number of hunters applying for permits, and the same number of permits, meaning odds shouldn't change all that much. Of course for those of us with only 1 or 2 points per species, odds are now terrible, especially for doe and cow permits.
Anyway there's really no way to predict how odds will change, just too many variables. We will know in about another 6 months. Just have to wait and see.
Post by: Dansk on January 26, 2010, 05:57:13 PM
It probably won't increase odds unless a lot of people decide to only apply in one category per species (deer/elk.) If that happens then I could see some permits becoming easier to draw, but not all. It will depend on how much money people are willing to spend on applications. Also, if a person puts in for all the different categories, they may only put in for a point, which is what I will be doing. That is the same as not applying.
Now whether this new plan will decrease odds, I may be in the minority, but I don't think odds of drawing a permit will decrease significantly overall. Sure some of the most sought after permits will most likely get more applicants, because they will be in the "quality" category, which most everyone will apply for. But overall, you've still got the same number of hunters applying for permits, and the same number of permits, meaning odds shouldn't change all that much. Of course for those of us with only 1 or 2 points per species, odds are now terrible, especially for doe and cow permits.
Anyway there's really no way to predict how odds will change, just too many variables. We will know in about another 6 months. Just have to wait and see.
I agree - I also believe that if you have say 15+ pts, and apply for all categories, your chances of drawing "a" tag got better. If you have 1-2 points, or only apply to 1 category (even with 15 points), your chances of drawing "a" tag are horrible. I just think this system will favor people with the most points - they will be drawing more tags accross all the categories- so I still think thier overall odds for drawing a tag go up.
Post by: Curly on January 27, 2010, 07:37:19 AM
I would feel better about this if they made us choose one category for our points and the rest start at zero and dropped the choices from 4 to 2.
I agree. I could support the new system somewhat if they changed that part......(not that they really care if I support the system.) :P
I email WDFW last week with the following email:
Quote
I have a question regarding the Proposed Hunting Special Permit changes. In the FAQ section on the WDFW website, it states:
What happens to the points hunters have accumulated if these changes are made?
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
My question is, how does it “ensure fairness” to credit hunters their points in each of the categories? It seems like it would be more fair for an applicant to be required to choose where they wanted to points to be, no simply give points in categories that the applicant has not earned them.
Thank you in advance for a reply to this question.
The reply I received was that I should expect a response within 5 business days. I can't wait to see what they have to say.
Post by: bobcat on January 27, 2010, 07:43:26 AM
Why don't you let me proofread that letter before you send it off? Just glancing at it a see a couple of mistakes.
Ooops, I see you already sent it.
Oh well, they'll probably be able to decipher it. :sas:
Seriously that's a good question to ask of them. I'm pretty sure the answer will be, whether they admit it or not, that doing it the way you suggest would be too complicated and would either be impossible or would simply take too much work.
Post by: Curly on January 27, 2010, 07:59:48 AM
Yeah, I think it may make it more complicated for them, but to come out and say that the way they propose will "ensure fairness"......give me a break. >:(
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 27, 2010, 08:02:19 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 27, 2010, 09:04:42 AM
I really don't mind paying a little extra to keep the WDFW in business, but come on, they shouldn't have to lie to us about it.
Post by: Curly on January 27, 2010, 09:28:29 AM
If they've been planning it since last spring, then their minds are probably already made-up. And they must be working on the new hunting regs and permit application wording in the regs right now. I can't imagine how they would have time to change much after the public input meetings in Feb to get the regs out in time and get the draw and applications all set-up for this years draw if they don't already have everything all worked out at least to about a 95% level of completion by now.
They should also reduce the amount of choices, but then people would bitch saying that they are reducing their choices and increasing the price.......that wouldn't go over well with a lot of people.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 27, 2010, 04:33:36 PM
They should also reduce the amount of choices, but then people would bitch saying that they are reducing their choices and increasing the price.......that wouldn't go over well with a lot of people.
They will decrease the choices for "Quality" down to two.
My question is if they can do that, why can't they decrease the choices for all cagetories?
Post by: Bigshooter on January 27, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
They should also reduce the amount of choices, but then people would bitch saying that they are reducing their choices and increasing the price.......that wouldn't go over well with a lot of people.
They will decrease the choices for "Quality" down to two.
My question is if they can do that, why can't they decrease the choices for all cagetories?
That's a good question. Maybe that will be something that they can be talked into doing.
Post by: billythekidrock on January 27, 2010, 05:12:41 PM
Anyway there's really no way to predict how odds will change, just too many variables. We will know in about another 6 months. Just have to wait and see.
I agree.
I just have a hard time seeing how a possible 26 hunt choices (depending on what you qualify for) per species will do anything good for the odds. (and how the hell do you come up with 26 choices each for deer and elk? lol)
Lets take the basics that most will be eligible for in the deer category. Buck, Antlerless and Quality.
Up to:
4 choices in Buck
4 choices in Antlerless
2 choices in Quality
That is ten choices for $15 (or more).
Last year it was 4 choices for $5.
If we have the same amount of applicants applying for the same amount of permits with more choices it seems that more people will NOT be drawn. Some people will be drawn for multiple permits. Permits that could have gone to others. Yes, the upside to that is they lose points in all categories, but the downside is others will miss out on permits.
Think of it like the lucky ones who draw more than 1 OIL tag in the same year. Makes some people a tad upset.
Post by: Dry creek on January 28, 2010, 06:11:28 PM
Post by: Dry creek on January 28, 2010, 06:18:52 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 28, 2010, 06:26:38 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on January 28, 2010, 06:34:46 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on January 28, 2010, 06:39:12 PM
Post by: bowhuntin on January 28, 2010, 06:43:51 PM
Post by: rooselk on January 28, 2010, 07:54:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 28, 2010, 07:56:40 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,42946.0.html
If you have lots of spare time, that is. :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on January 28, 2010, 07:58:56 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,43349.0.html
Post by: rooselk on January 28, 2010, 08:10:16 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on January 28, 2010, 08:13:42 PM
Post by: KNOPHISH on January 29, 2010, 05:44:00 AM
Post by: Curly on January 29, 2010, 09:26:08 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 29, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
Don't change the rules in the middle of the game.
Well, I wouldn't hold them to that rule, this is a game without an end. If something needs tweaked, then they should do it.
Post by: Curly on January 29, 2010, 09:39:17 AM
Don't change the rules in the middle of the game.
Well, I wouldn't hold them to that rule, this is a game without an end. If something needs tweaked, then they should do it.
Tweaked is one thing........what they want to do is another. They should not be doing a major overhaul like this.
Tweaking would have been to simply raise the permit application fees a few dollars and reduce the choices down to 2? Would have been much simpler and cost the dept. less money.
Post by: Dry creek on January 29, 2010, 01:55:16 PM
Post by: Curly on January 29, 2010, 02:04:15 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 29, 2010, 02:08:37 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on January 29, 2010, 04:38:32 PM
Following that line of thinking I wonder what would happen to those with points in the "Youth" and "MH" categories.
What happens when you are no longer eligible for those categories? Hmm..Could they be applied to another category but not exceed what ever your max would be?
This is just a hypothetical post and I don't expect a real answer.
Post by: Curly on January 29, 2010, 05:01:00 PM
BTW - I still haven't gotten a response from WDFW regarding my email to them other than the automated response saying they would respond within 5 business days.
Post by: Dry creek on January 30, 2010, 07:51:05 AM
Post by: Cougeyes on January 30, 2010, 08:29:32 AM
you can only put in for buck or bull not both and so half the hunters will put in for elk your odds for deer are graterYou're mistaken, i dont think it states that anywhere.
Post by: MooseStock on January 30, 2010, 09:47:47 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2010, 10:02:17 AM
Post by: MooseStock on January 30, 2010, 11:15:02 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 30, 2010, 11:28:50 AM
Ironically they will sit worse under the new system, as their draw pool will likely increase, not decrease. They will be competing with not only the same hunters as they have in the past, but most likely will also now compete with others that were previously applying for cow permits, senior permits, youth permits, and so forth. That's the folly of this. Think about all the youth for example: many will be joining the ranks of those applying for the quality hunts. Why not?
Post by: MooseStock on January 30, 2010, 11:54:01 AM
Post by: Cougeyes on January 30, 2010, 03:36:50 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 30, 2010, 04:10:06 PM
you can only put in for buck or bull not both and so half the hunters will put in for elk your odds for deer are graterYa dude you are very confused! :chuckle:
Post by: Dry creek on January 30, 2010, 04:10:50 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 30, 2010, 04:14:50 PM
I think the current system is fine too. This is happening because of all the whiners who complain to the WDFW because they haven't drawn a special permit in over 10 years. But these whiners are the same people that only apply for the permits that have 1 in 200 odds or worse. People, if you apply for hunts with tough odds like that, you only have reason to complain if you have applied for 200 years and haven't been drawn yet.-Not drawing the hard to get hunts isnt what bothers us, we know there once in a lifetime draw odds, its the having max points and the guy with 3pts draws! It happens to often, the system is flawed, now its really going to be flawed!
Post by: billythekidrock on January 30, 2010, 04:27:33 PM
To me, that is one of the few good things about our system. I just want better odds and a quicker cycling through of points. Too many guys out there with 20+ points.I think the current system is fine too. This is happening because of all the whiners who complain to the WDFW because they haven't drawn a special permit in over 10 years. But these whiners are the same people that only apply for the permits that have 1 in 200 odds or worse. People, if you apply for hunts with tough odds like that, you only have reason to complain if you have applied for 200 years and haven't been drawn yet.-Not drawing the hard to get hunts isnt what bothers us, we know there once in a lifetime draw odds, its the having max points and the guy with 3pts draws! It happens to often, the system is flawed, now its really going to be flawed!
Post by: Curly on January 30, 2010, 04:37:54 PM
Not drawing the hard to get hunts isn't what bothers us, we know there once in a lifetime draw odds, its the having max points and the guy with 3pts draws! It happens too often, the system is flawed, now its really going to be flawed!
To me, that is one of the few good things about our system. I just want better odds and a quicker cycling through of points. Too many guys out there with 20+ points.
:yeah:
How is the system flawed if a guy with a few points draws? The system is fine. The guy is just luckier that draws with 1 point than the guy that doesn't draw with 10 points. Would you want the State Lottery to require a guy buy a certain amount of tickets before he's eligible to win the lottery? :rolleyes:
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 30, 2010, 04:49:03 PM
Post by: Dry creek on January 30, 2010, 04:58:17 PM
Post by: washelkhntr on January 30, 2010, 10:11:23 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 30, 2010, 10:50:00 PM
I personally think every year your points should get zeroed out, that way everyone has the same odds. :twocents:
???
Post by: billythekidrock on January 31, 2010, 06:26:24 AM
I personally think every year your points should get zeroed out, that way everyone has the same odds. :twocents:
Then why have points? How fair is that to the people that have been putting in for years? (it would be better for me since I have no elk points. lol)
When we didn't have points some people complained that they never drew and that new hunters were getting all the permits. Then people were drawing back to back permits for the same unit and that made people angry. Then you had to wait two or three years before you could apply again and they had a three day wait to start the season if you didn't draw. So points were implemented to slightly up the odds for those who always apply for permits.
Post by: boneaddict on January 31, 2010, 07:04:39 AM
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2010, 08:53:19 AM
Systems with no points are the best IMO. Bonus points like Washington are second best and preference point systems SUCK
:yeah:
Post by: mulehunter on January 31, 2010, 09:07:34 AM
Mulehunter
Post by: Curly on January 31, 2010, 09:35:18 AM
Post by: washelkhntr on February 02, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I would love to see it go back to the way if was years ago, where if you drew a tag you had to wait the three years to apply again.
Post by: bobcat on February 02, 2010, 08:31:52 PM
I would love to see it go back to the way if was years ago, where if you drew a tag you had to wait the three years to apply again.
Yeah I sure do miss the old way.
Post by: Curly on February 03, 2010, 04:20:19 PM
QuoteWhat happens to the points hunters have accumulated if these changes are made?
Hunters would retain the points they have accrued in years when they applied for a special hunting permit, but were not selected to receive one. To ensure fairness, these points would be applied to each of the new subcategories created under the new proposal. For example, if a deer hunter currently has 10 points, that hunter would be credited 10 points in each of the eight deer categories (e.g. buck, second antlerless, quality). Future drawings would continue to be “weighted,” providing an advantage to hunters with the greatest number of points.
I'll say it again, since I don't think I said it in this thread......... :) How is it "fair" to credit an applicant his points in each of the eight deer categories? That is my biggest complaint. Does WDFW feel they need to pay back the guys who have complained the most for not being able to draw by letting them draw anterless permits? Makes absolutely no sense to me and seems totally unfair.
I received an email reply to my question asking WDFW why they thought it was fair to distribute the points like they have decided. I thought they were ignoring me but it turns out they answered the question right away, but my spam filter had thought it was junk mail... :P
Here is the reply:
"Thank you for contacting the Department of Fish and Wildlife regarding the proposed special permit changes. The complexity of allowing hunters to choose where their points would go could not be accommodated in our system efficiently. So we choose to spread their points over all categories of the species where they had earned them.
The proposals will be available for comment early next month and we strongly encourage folks to submit their thoughts at that time.
Sincerely,
Wildlife Program "
So, basically I see it as they are admitting that it isn't really "fair" like they say but that they would have a hard time doing it another way. I don't see that as a good enough reason.........
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 03, 2010, 04:38:12 PM
Post by: Hillbilly270 on February 03, 2010, 04:42:36 PM
Post by: Curly on February 03, 2010, 04:53:30 PM
If they didn't spread the points then the guys who have been appliying for antlerless for multiple years would go back to zero, that doesn't seem real fair to me. I'm chomping at the bit to see the details on the proposals. Then I'll make up my mind whether its a good or bad thing.
The fair way would be to have the applicant choose where the points should go. Then the antlerless guys could choose to have all their points in the antlerless category.....what's not fair about that? If the points are distributed across all pools, then the antlerless guys will then be in the quality pools with several points, thus potentially screwing the guys with a bunch of points trying to draw a premium tag.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on February 03, 2010, 05:05:44 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2010, 05:23:00 PM
Quote
So, basically I see it as they are admitting that it isn't really "fair" like they say but that they would have a hard time doing it another way. I don't see that as a good enough reason.........
It seems like a reasonable reason. I figured that is why they were doing it that way. I would think it would be too costly to do it any other way. Too labor intensive I would suppose, for the computer people doing the programming, and the data entry people.
So yeah, it really isn't the fair way to do it, but at least to the WDFW's way of thinking, the people who have been whining the most about the current system, will be sittin' pretty, with all their points spread across all the categories, and the whiners might quit whining.
Like I said before, if it wasn't for all the whiners they would have left it as it is, which was working just fine. They need to stop listening to the public and just do things the right way. That is what they're getting paid to do, not to listen to us.
Post by: billythekidrock on February 03, 2010, 05:35:28 PM
But on the plus side it gives me a better reason not to purchase points (since it may take years to undo the top heavy applicants) and if more people do that then the odds could get better for the rest of you.
Post by: Curly on February 03, 2010, 05:55:25 PM
QuoteSo, basically I see it as they are admitting that it isn't really "fair" like they say but that they would have a hard time doing it another way. I don't see that as a good enough reason.........
It seems like a reasonable reason. I figured that is why they were doing it that way. I would think it would be too costly to do it any other way. Too labor intensive I would suppose, for the computer people doing the programming, and the data entry people.
So yeah, it really isn't the fair way to do it, but at least to the WDFW's way of thinking, the people who have been whining the most about the current system, will be sittin' pretty, with all their points spread across all the categories, and the whiners might quit whining.
Like I said before, if it wasn't for all the whiners they would have left it as it is, which was working just fine. They need to stop listening to the public and just do things the right way. That is what they're getting paid to do, not to listen to us.
Well, it seems like a silly reason to me. The computer programmer could add a box for the applicant to check for where they want the previous points (accumulated before 2010) to go. It should not be too difficult, but yes it would make it more difficult.
I figured that was the reason too. So, why add that part in the FAQ saying "to ensure fairness"?
It still won't fix the problem of whiners. Now I'll be a whiner and the guys with 14 points will still be whining because they still won't be able to draw a permit......... :bash:
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 03, 2010, 06:00:49 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 03, 2010, 06:09:56 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2010, 06:25:01 PM
I figured that was the reason too. So, why add that part in the FAQ saying "to ensure fairness"?
Maybe because the only other option would be to only allocate the points in one category of their choosing, probably if they had to pick one the "Quality" category would make the most sense for the most people. But then there may be some people who only apply for antlerless permits and aren't interested in quality hunts, so it wouldn't be fair for them.
Again, I'm not saying I like it, I'm just speculating as to why they are doing it the way they are doing it.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on February 05, 2010, 06:21:22 PM
but i also think it mainly goes back to the money grab statement and the WDFW can try and lie to us saying that it will improve draw odds
got to fix the budget somehow, the grinch cant raise taxes and plan on keeping her office, so might as well dig into the pockets of a select group that the majority of the state doesnt see eye to eye with as it is.
im just glad they didnt jump straight to a draw only system, i dont think i could stay sane without being able to go out and chase deer around for a few weeks and i cannot afford to hunt out of state
special draws are a nice option but not a necessity, if you dont like the way things are going to be come june save your cash and support another state's system.
thats my :twocents:
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 05, 2010, 08:25:38 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf)
I REALLY like what they have done. 100% behind it. And yeah, I'll be buying more permit apps.
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 05, 2010, 08:41:31 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on February 05, 2010, 09:52:47 PM
Details here:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf)
I REALLY like what they have done. 100% behind it. And yeah, I'll be buying more permit apps.
It does show what a quality tag will be and what a buck tag will be.
Post by: Bigshooter on February 05, 2010, 09:57:25 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 05, 2010, 10:02:35 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 05, 2010, 10:06:39 PM
Post by: huntnphool on February 05, 2010, 10:16:40 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 05, 2010, 10:22:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 05, 2010, 10:38:38 PM
Post by: Deep Forks on February 05, 2010, 10:43:50 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 05, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Post by: Cougeyes on February 05, 2010, 10:59:46 PM
I really like the changes, especially if they limit guys to 2 choices. There are some new late mule deer huntsin the blues too.Are they proposing that? I didn't come across anything on how many choices a person will have, just curious?
I like the changes too, hey we all knew it was to increase revenue for them, which they actually stated upfront numerous times, if it increasing my hunting opportunity I will shell out the extra cash.....that is if it stays $5 a permit, may change my mind if it is more. I have a lot of thinking and choices to make here in the near future.
Post by: bobcat on February 05, 2010, 11:08:25 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 06, 2010, 07:13:28 AM
Thats only fair, this will allow all of them to eventually get a call in years to come.
Only those in the general area will be called for the damage moose. Unfortunately I was told they won't call a westside guy for an eastside problem.
So if I read this right, you could draw more than one permit and hunt until you've punched your tag, which possibally could leave unknown amount of tags unfilled. So if there were 25 people drawn for antlerless permits and 5 of those people also drew buck permits and they filled their tags with the buck permit wouldn't that leave 5 antlerless permits unfilled. If this is the way the new system is going too work we hunters are being cheated out of possible permits. If I'm wrong which I tend to be all to often please explain :dunno:
I agree. This could cause a shortage of permits and at least half of those will go unfilled.
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 06, 2010, 07:44:38 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 06, 2010, 07:46:08 AM
Capitol Peak as a "Quality" hunt? WTF?
There are no westside "Buck" permits that I can find.
What happened to the "Master Hunter" Quinault hunt?
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 06, 2010, 08:00:08 AM
Details here:-Sure there are some great new hunts but that is the ONLY thing that is positive with this new system, Im not sure what your all giddy about, your going to see odds of 1in200+ on hunts that were not near that before! As much as I hated it before I wish it wasnt changing :twocents:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125.pdf)
I REALLY like what they have done. 100% behind it. And yeah, I'll be buying more permit apps.
Post by: D_morg on February 06, 2010, 08:10:45 AM
Post by: Heavily Armed Hiker on February 06, 2010, 08:21:19 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 06, 2010, 08:57:20 AM
And the state is hurting for money so giving them a few extra bucks isn't that big of a deal to me.
Post by: Cougeyes on February 06, 2010, 09:22:16 AM
I don't think they are going to get some people may be more confused and choose not to apply.Haha, if i start trying to figure it all out by the time the applications come around I may know what to do, i'm still a little confused and those that were already confused with the old system will most likely be overwhelmed. WDFW is going to be bombarded with e-mails and explanations, they better hope they make it really clear in the regulations or they will have to hire some new people to field all the inquires they're about to receive.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on February 06, 2010, 09:45:12 AM
Feel free to be a Pollyanna and continue to cheer on the pimping out of Washington's wildlife guys...there are so many potential problems in this thing its just sick.
Here is one to think on..
There were 54,431 applications for modern firearm bull tags last year for 863 tags.. now we have a situation where there will be the same number of applications for the "quality" hunts except for there are only 333 permits...oops :chuckle:
This is a ponzi scheme..because every one's odds will be reduced so much no ones probability will increase..all this does is raise more money for the WDFW.
Post by: CJ-5 on February 06, 2010, 09:54:35 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on February 06, 2010, 10:04:44 AM
Im just glad I have points going into this thing and am not just starting out even though it probably doesn't matter..Its not going to accomplish there stated goals and thats fine I really don't care anymore.:yeah:
Feel free to be a Pollyanna and continue to cheer on the pimping out of Washington's wildlife guys...there are so many potential problems in this thing its just sick.
Here is one to think on..
There were 54,431 applications for modern firearm bull tags last year for 863 tags.. now we have a situation where there will be the same number of applications for the "quality" hunts except for there are only 333 permits...oops :chuckle:
Yes, I find it quite sad that many believe "opportunity" message.
To further your example above...
Now add the fact that an applicant can also select in other categories and some of those permits will go unfilled. At a minimum, 50% of all permits will go unfilled (and some will go un-hunted) when one applicant is selected for multiple permits for the same species. All that adds up to less access to the available permits.
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 06, 2010, 10:09:17 AM
Post by: CJ-5 on February 06, 2010, 10:37:51 AM
Post by: Cougeyes on February 06, 2010, 11:06:22 AM
Yes, I find it quite sad that many believe "opportunity" message.
I only believe the opportunity message because i was one of the people that would only put in for buck tags and only bull tags because i did not want to lose my points on a cow tag or a doe tag, now i have the opportunity to put in for those tags without losing my buck points and bull points.
I for one will have 12 points for deer in this years draw, will i put in for an antlerless tag, most likely but i will also be putting in for a quality buck tag as well, if drawn for buck i will not hunt doe, and even if i dont draw buck and draw doe i probably wouldn't hunt doe until the last couple days to try and fill the freezer because i would opt to hunt the general buck season. So yes, that doe tag, granted i drew it would most likely go unfilled. It does take away from those that normally apply for doe tags and it does decrease there odds of drawing because you have new people putting in for tags they normally would not and I do not think this increases odds at all, it does increase possible opportunity and it deffinetly INCREASES WDFW REVENUE
There are many flaws with this new system and i agree that this is not a way to increase odds for people.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on February 06, 2010, 12:01:35 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 06, 2010, 12:23:08 PM
Odds have always been terrible on the premier hunts in this state(as other states). I don't think they are going to get drastically worse because of this, some people may be more confused and choose not to apply. In the past I've never put in for WT hunts, just mule deer hunts, but if this goes through I'll probably do both, I like that.Exactly my point and so will I and my dad and brother and everybody else will be applying for WT tags, thus draw odds down the *censored*ter! And you think just the locals apply for the BLues, boy are you wrong! Hell now I get to apply for goose, or rimrock, probably pull one of those tags that I have never had interest applying for screwing the guys that hope for those tags, and I don't loose my max points for the Blues, Every type of applicant is screwed with this system, Meat hunters, bull hunters, and Trophy Bull hunters, The only way for this new system to work is if they make you choose what pool you want your Pt's to go into and start at 0 for the rest, then it would work otherwise this system will be horrible!!!
And the state is hurting for money so giving them a few extra bucks isn't that big of a deal to me.
Post by: billythekidrock on February 06, 2010, 12:45:04 PM
Where are the 150+ bull permit applicants going to apply now that they got rid of the Quinault bull hunt? That means 150 applications potentially going elsewhere...again upping the odds on the remaining permits.
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 06, 2010, 12:56:39 PM
Post by: huntnphool on February 06, 2010, 01:51:58 PM
Quote
I think the thing that most of us don't realize is the majority of guys are only putting in for units that they normally hunt,
I don't see it this way Ridge, if you are given free points to a new category why would you not take advantage of it and apply, I seriously doubt the $5.00 will stop anyone? I believe better than half will take the additional chance, and this is what WDFW is counting on as well to increase $$$$.
If someone has 10 points going into this new system and there is a antlerless catagory that they previously never bothered applying for because they would lose their points, they are given 10 free points in this new draw, you really think the guy is going to say no thanks and just forget about it? I wouldn't bet on it. :twocents:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on February 06, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 06, 2010, 02:28:05 PM
Do I think draw odds are going to be better, no. They'll get worse, but to be honest I don't think they are that good right now. In 15 years of applying I've drawn 3 tags while putting in for all species available, not very good odds.
Post by: Lowedog on February 06, 2010, 03:22:21 PM
Post by: huntnphool on February 06, 2010, 03:28:34 PM
Quote
I do think that most hunters don't venture out and try new spots on a regular basis
I would agree, until they draw a permit. ;)
Post by: Lowedog on February 06, 2010, 03:43:54 PM
QuoteI do think that most hunters don't venture out and try new spots on a regular basis
I would agree, until they draw a permit. ;)
And then come on H-W and ask where to hunt! :chuckle:
Post by: SkookumHntr on February 06, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Wow, 3 in 15 yrs!? You are doing better than me. I have one since '94 and have only drawn twice in my life. :chuckle: I don't understand all the whining. Pretty simple. If you don't like it don't play the game. ;)-Well your doing better then me, 0for18 here, and it looks like it wont be getting any better for my odds or anybody else :bash:
Post by: Bob33 on February 06, 2010, 04:17:52 PM
Quote
most hunters don't venture out and try new spots on a regular basis, most guys go to the same camp they have been hunting decade after decade."
True, but that does not imply they are not applying in other areas. In 2008 some 6,000 individuals applied for the Desert A tag. How many hunt there? Well, 15 tags were given out. Margaret A elk: 4,200 applicants. How many hunted there? 18 permits were given out.
Post by: Deep Forks on February 06, 2010, 04:49:50 PM
Skookum if you have max points for deer and elk you got a better chance than most in this new permit money maker, good luck.Wow, 3 in 15 yrs!? You are doing better than me. I have one since '94 and have only drawn twice in my life. :chuckle: I don't understand all the whining. Pretty simple. If you don't like it don't play the game. ;)-Well your doing better then me, 0for18 here, and it looks like it wont be getting any better for my odds or anybody else :bash:
Lowedog I've been drawn twice in don't know how many years, but was for a buck and bull and now my points are back up again, so I won't cry. Wrote my letters and voiced my opinion, so now I'll spend for my apps. and not hold my breath. We do need more opportunities for out youth, this should be a major focuss for WDFW. :dunno: :( AND IF DRAWN :yike:
Post by: Cougeyes on February 06, 2010, 04:59:59 PM
We do need more opportunities for out youth, this should be a major focuss for WDFW.No kidding, they need to open a 2 point only youth hunt in more units.
Post by: bobcat on February 06, 2010, 05:10:38 PM
I think you can turn your permit back in and keep your points as I read the regs...
That is true. I saw that and thought that would be one way for people to apply in multiple categories, and if 2 permits for the same species are drawn, you can just say you made a mistake on your application and turn it back in before the permit season starts. That might be the way I'll work the system.
Post by: Curly on February 06, 2010, 05:28:04 PM
The only way for this new system to work is if they make you choose what pool you want your Pt's to go into and start at 0 for the rest, then it would work otherwise this system will be horrible!!!
Exactly. And they say to ensure fairness, they are distributing the points across all pools...... :rolleyes: They say it would be too difficult to do it another way. WTF........any decent computer programmer should be able to add a box to check for where the applicant wants the points to be. If I had several points in the draw system, I probably wouldn't be as pissed off about this, but I'd still be mad because it is totally unfair. The guys with several points will be drawing all the permits for the next few years under this system......
I kind of like a lot of the permits they have listed, I just can't get past the idea that they are giving away points.
I still can't decide if I'm going to continue to support WDFW by giving them my money for permit applications. I don't know why they think they need to payback the guys who have been applying for premier permits and not getting drawn. :dunno:
I'm going to have to send another letter about this issue. I really hated the answer I got.........and I'm sure they don't have time to change the software that they've been working on for almost a year.......
Post by: Curly on February 06, 2010, 05:30:06 PM
I think you can turn your permit back in and keep your points as I read the regs...
That is true. I saw that and thought that would be one way for people to apply in multiple categories, and if 2 permits for the same species are drawn, you can just say you made a mistake on your application and turn it back in before the permit season starts. That might be the way I'll work the system.
That will cause the WDFW such a headache and a lot more work........... I like it.
Post by: huntnphool on February 06, 2010, 05:33:59 PM
That is true. I saw that and thought that would be one way for people to apply in multiple categories, and if 2 permits for the same species are drawn, you can just say you made a mistake on your application and turn it back in before the permit season starts. That might be the way I'll work the system.
So knowing this and having points given to you across the board why would someone NOT apply in every catagory, if they started with points in each one? You still think your odds are going to increase Bobcat or has the lightbulb finally come on. ;)
Post by: WDFW-SUX on February 06, 2010, 05:36:57 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 06, 2010, 05:39:22 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 06, 2010, 05:45:24 PM
Post by: rackattack on February 06, 2010, 05:53:43 PM
Quote
The guys with several points will be drawing all the permits for the next few years under this system......
I find this statement totally untrue.
It is still going to be the same random draw it's always been. I know one individual that had to use 10 points just for a Boisfort muzzy cow tag. That's a draw that gives out 40 tags for around 240 applicants. He should have draw years ago, but some people just have terrible luck in this draw system. My cousin drew a Toutle muzzy tag with 2 points. I guess my point is that it is still a random draw and I don't believe high point people will get all the tags. :twocents:
Post by: Curly on February 06, 2010, 06:18:48 PM
QuoteThe guys with several points will be drawing all the permits for the next few years under this system......
I find this statement totally untrue.
It is still going to be the same random draw it's always been. I know one individual that had to use 10 points just for a Boisfort muzzy cow tag. That's a draw that gives out 40 tags for around 240 applicants. He should have draw years ago, but some people just have terrible luck in this draw system. My cousin drew a Toutle muzzy tag with 2 points. I guess my point is that it is still a random draw and I don't believe high point people will get all the tags. :twocents:
Sure, it still will be random, but..........there will be a lot more guys applying for a cow tag now that have lots of points given to them. Guys that normally would not apply for a cow tag will now be applying. The odds just got way worse for someone to draw a cow tag.
Sure there may be the random guy drawing a tag with a couple points and there will be the unlucky *censored* that can't draw a tag to save his life........but in general the guys with lots of points built up will be drawing the cow tags and the guys with little to no points will be S.O.L. I doubt you will see many guys drawing a cow tag with just a few points anymore.......could it happen, yes.....but I doubt it will. I'd much rather have my name in the hat 100 times than 1.......