Post by: bobcat on March 17, 2010, 12:50:13 PM
Quote
Dear hunting friend,
I am writing to inform you about some pending changes to hunting in Washington, and to ask for your support in stopping them. The changes are scheduled to be approved by the Fish and Wildlife Commission at their April meeting, and would become effective for the 2010 hunting season.
The changes pertain primarily to how special deer and elk permits are handled. Currently and historically an applicant may submit up to four hunt choices for deer, and four hunt choices for elk. All deer hunt choices are submitted on one deer application, and all elk hunt choices are submitted on a separate elk application. When an applicant is not drawn, a bonus point is added to his account. Over time an unsuccessful applicant accumulates more and more points, which increase the odds of being drawn exponentially because the points are squared. In other words, an applicant with 10 points has 100 names put into the drawing.
WDFW has proposed changing the way deer and elk permits are processed. Instead of one pool for deer applications and points, and one pool for elk applications and points, it is proposed that eight separate pools would be created for each species. The concept is that bonus points will be kept in each of the eight categories. Drawing a permit in one of the categories will reset the points for that category to zero, but points in the other categories would not be influenced. The pools are as follows:
1. Buck or bull permits
2. Antlerless permits
3. Second tag permits
4. Quality hunt permits
5. Youth hunt permits
6. Senior hunt permits
7. Disabled hunter permits
8. Master Hunter permits
An applicant can potentially submit hunt choices in each of the categories in which he is eligible. While this sounds attractive at first glance, and to some it may be, it has some serious drawbacks.
Consider a hunter who has been applying for a “quality” permit such as a Margaret or a “Dayton” bull elk permit, or the “Desert A” buck deer permit. Many of those applying for these tags have been unsuccessful for ten years or more, and thus have accumulated ten or more points. While the odds of drawing even with maximum points are low, they will most likely be even lower if this new permitting system is implemented. Why? Because now the pool will not only have those applicants that have been applying for ten or more years, it will also have other applicants joining the pool. The hunters who typically only apply for antlerless tags may now throw their names into the quality pool, and still not lose their points in the antlerless pool. Adding these applicants to the Margaret or Desert A pool will dilute the odds of everyone being drawn.
What about those who typically only apply for antlerless hunts? They hunt primarily for sport and meat, and can usually draw a tag every five years or less. The “quality” hunters with 12 or 13 points can now apply in the antlerless pool without jeopardizing their quality points. The hunters that really want the antlerless permits will now have a significantly lower chance of drawing a permit.
The bottom line is that every type of hunter will have a lower chance of being drawn for his or her preferred tag. Overall, the same number of hunters will draw, but the distribution will shift. Hunters that traditionally have applied for quality tags will take some of the antlerless tags away from those that prefer them. Hunters that typically apply for antlerless tags will make the odds of drawing a quality tag even worse.
Applying will be more expensive. Rather than paying for one application for deer and one for elk, you will be required to buy a separate application for each pool you wish to apply in. If you want to apply for a Master Hunter hunt, an antlerless hunt, and a quality hunt, you will be required to purchase three applications. Do you trust these additional funds will be used to benefit hunting in Washington?
The details of these proposed changes were first released to the public by WDFW in early 2010 via this posting: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html. (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html.)
QuoteThis approach has several advantages over the current system, which pools all applications for deer permits and for elk permits. First, it would reduce the number of applicants in each drawing, thereby potentially improving hunters' odds of being selected for hunts they prefer.
On March 15, another news release was issued: http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=mar1510b (http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=mar1510b)
Quote"This plan is designed to give hunters more options for getting the special permits they really want,” said Ware, noting that the proposal was developed with broad public input and support from the WDFW’s Game Management Advisory Committee.
Note that the first news release mentions “improving hunters’ odds of being selected for hunts they prefer” as a motive. The second news release only mentions “more options for getting the special permits they really want” as a motive. The message has shifted as the department has likely realized this change does not improve odds of being drawn.
As for “broad public input”: there are no public minutes of the meetings from the Game Management Advisory Committee that are referenced as support for this change. What questions were asked? What other hunting groups were queried? Did you receive a questionnaire? I am not aware of anyone has had any opportunity to provide input to this major change prior to 2010.
There are many unanswered questions. Do I get my points carried over to the Senior pool even though I am not presently a senior? Will everyone have points transferred to the Master Hunter pool? If you draw three permits (one in quality, one in antlerless, one in quality) what is the process for returning the two tags that can’t be used? Do the points get reinstated? Do you trust that Outdoor Central has adequately implemented and tested these changes?
If 500 hunters write the Commission before their April meeting, I believe there is a good chance this may be stopped or deferred. Here is what you can do if you wish to express an opinion about this issue.
Create an email and address it as follows:
TO: commission@dfw.wa.gov;
cc: Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov; director@dfw.wa.gov
Subject: Proposed changes to deer and elk permitting in Washington State
(Use your own words, but here is a suggested template):
Ladies and gentlemen of the Commission,
I am asking that you not approve the changes proposed for deer and elk permitting by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. Creating eight separate pools for deer and elk permits will not increase the odds of being drawn for the majority of hunters in the state. These changes will complicate the drawing process.
Most significantly, not enough time has been provided for public input and debate. This change is significant, and risks alienating a portion of the hunting community at a time when hunter numbers in the state are already declining.
Please do not approve this change for the 2010 hunting season.
Sincerely,
Name
Address
Thank you. Please forward this to your hunting friends and ask them to write the Commission.
Post by: winston2789 on March 17, 2010, 12:57:54 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 17, 2010, 12:59:26 PM
Post by: Curly on March 17, 2010, 01:00:34 PM
Post by: winston2789 on March 17, 2010, 01:01:35 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 17, 2010, 01:22:01 PM
Quote
Thank you for contacting the Wildlife Program. Due to the large volume of e-mail messages we are currently receiving, our expected response time will be 5 business days from the date of receipt.
If you need immediate assistance, please contact our customer service desk at (360) 902-2515.
We appreciate your patience.
Post by: bobcat on March 17, 2010, 01:24:39 PM
QuoteThank you for contacting the Wildlife Program. Due to the large volume of e-mail messages we are currently receiving, our expected response time will be 5 business days from the date of receipt.
If you need immediate assistance, please contact our customer service desk at (360) 902-2515.
We appreciate your patience.
:chuckle:
Post by: winston2789 on March 17, 2010, 01:28:19 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 17, 2010, 01:33:10 PM
Keep those emails going!
Post by: Curly on March 17, 2010, 01:33:55 PM
Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission
600 Capitol Way North
Olympia, Washington 98501-1091
(But I'm not sure the Commission would actually be able to read a letter sent to the mail address since they are spread all across the state).
I did get that same message about the 5 business days when I sent a message to them in Feb right after they posted the proposed changes on the website, and they did get back to me a few days later.
Post by: Bob33 on March 17, 2010, 01:37:10 PM
(But I'm not sure the Commission would actually be able to read a letter sent to the mail address since they are spread all across the state).
Not to worry. Snail mail letters also get delivered to each of the commissioners. An individual in the Fish and Wildlife Commission office in Olympia opens letters mailed to that address, and makes copies for each of the commissioners.
Post by: Curly on March 17, 2010, 01:39:57 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 17, 2010, 06:51:58 PM
Post by: Elkslayer on March 17, 2010, 07:21:12 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 17, 2010, 07:24:26 PM
Post by: denali on March 17, 2010, 07:27:47 PM
will send an email as well
Post by: winston2789 on March 18, 2010, 10:08:15 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on March 18, 2010, 10:14:31 AM
others who didnt get drawn who may have 4 points get them carried to ever catagory they put in for
if i only drew a doe permit and lose everything howcome someone that didnt draw gets points toward all four catagories or however much they put in for
they should carry my points toward every other catagory that wasnt a doe catagory just like they did everyone else
not trying to sound greedy here but i think the new system is going to screw more over than help
this will not increase your chances like they say
if 50 permits are given for doe and 500 people apply
and 10 permits for buck are given and 2000 people apply
now the 50 permit will have 2500 people applying and
the 10 permits will have 2500 people aplying
the people should not have gotten greedy and conplained there way into getting more applications
its not helping
theonly thing this does is make you have to pay a lot more money to the wdfw and then more poeple will end up getting laid off by lack of funds :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on March 18, 2010, 10:47:57 AM
I think we might have a few more to go to hit that 500 mark.... keep em going. 8)
I started a poll to try to get a count of how many have been sent. Vote here:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,46679.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,46679.0.html)
Post by: bow4elk on March 18, 2010, 11:26:57 AM
(But I'm not sure the Commission would actually be able to read a letter sent to the mail address since they are spread all across the state).
Not to worry. Snail mail letters also get delivered to each of the commissioners. An individual in the Fish and Wildlife Commission office in Olympia opens letters mailed to that address, and makes copies for each of the commissioners.
Yes, do both - email and a hard copy. Physical mail is becoming obsolete and it communicates a personal interest vs and SPAM approach. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on March 18, 2010, 11:28:21 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 18, 2010, 05:47:59 PM
Email sent!
me too, and sent it to my hunting buddies also
Post by: rosscrazyelk on March 20, 2010, 08:52:32 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 20, 2010, 09:32:51 AM
Here's a link to it if you haven't seen it yet: http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125_revisions.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-04-125_revisions.pdf)
Post by: Bigshooter on March 20, 2010, 01:02:53 PM
Post by: ACCUBOND on March 20, 2010, 06:48:43 PM
Post by: winston2789 on March 20, 2010, 07:38:48 PM
Only 2 choices for quality hunts thats a plus.
The chances of getting drawn on 3rd and 4th choice are slim to none, so that doesn't really help...
Post by: Bob33 on March 20, 2010, 07:49:39 PM
i got drawn for a doe permit last year when i had four points lost it allI trust you included all that in your letter or email to the Commission. That makes a strong argument.
others who didnt get drawn who may have 4 points get them carried to ever catagory they put in for
if i only drew a doe permit and lose everything howcome someone that didnt draw gets points toward all four catagories or however much they put in for
they should carry my points toward every other catagory that wasnt a doe catagory just like they did everyone else
not trying to sound greedy here but i think the new system is going to screw more over than help
this will not increase your chances like they say
if 50 permits are given for doe and 500 people apply
and 10 permits for buck are given and 2000 people apply
now the 50 permit will have 2500 people applying and
the 10 permits will have 2500 people aplying
the people should not have gotten greedy and conplained there way into getting more applications
its not helping
theonly thing this does is make you have to pay a lot more money to the wdfw and then more poeple will end up getting laid off by lack of funds :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on March 20, 2010, 09:10:41 PM
Only 2 choices for quality hunts thats a plus.
The chances of getting drawn on 3rd and 4th choice are slim to none, so that doesn't really help...
Why do you say that? You have just as much chance when you put a particular hunt down as a 3rd or 4th choice as if you had put it down as 1st or 2nd. If your number comes up and your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices are already gone, but there are permits left for your 4th choice, you will get your 4th choice. I don't understand why your odds would be "slim to none." Your odds are the same for each hunt listed no matter if you have it listed as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th.
Post by: ACCUBOND on March 20, 2010, 09:16:27 PM
Post by: seaduckhunter on March 20, 2010, 10:13:08 PM
Only 2 choices for quality hunts thats a plus.
The chances of getting drawn on 3rd and 4th choice are slim to none, so that doesn't really help...
Why do you say that? You have just as much chance when you put a particular hunt down as a 3rd or 4th choice as if you had put it down as 1st or 2nd. If your number comes up and your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices are already gone, but there are permits left for your 4th choice, you will get your 4th choice. I don't understand why your odds would be "slim to none." Your odds are the same for each hunt listed no matter if you have it listed as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th.
I got drawn for a 4th choice before your odds are the same just depends on when you get picked. I am a lucky one that gets 9 points this year in each category if they do this. I am not complaining but dont necessarily think it is the most fair way to this. Maybe let us choose one catagory where we want our points not all. I am always applying for the late quality hunts I probably would put all my points there.
Post by: Bob33 on March 20, 2010, 10:37:38 PM
The word is getting out. Please continue to press ahead and make some noise. This can be stopped or deferred. Talking about this in the forum is great but in addition what is really needed is for individuals to contact the Commission. There are just a couple weeks left before they will decide whether or not to allow this to be implemented this season.
Post by: winston2789 on March 21, 2010, 01:00:46 AM
I got drawn for a 4th choice before your odds are the same just depends on when you get picked. I am a lucky one that gets 9 points this year in each category if they do this. I am not complaining but dont necessarily think it is the most fair way to this. Maybe let us choose one catagory where we want our points not all. I am always applying for the late quality hunts I probably would put all my points there.
Bobcat and Seaduck- you're right, I'm wrong. You can get chosen on 3rd and 4th choice for a less desirable hunt like a cow tag or doe tag.....With this new system having a 3rd and 4th choice for a "quality hunt" will be slim to none. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Getting back on track...to the original post: I sent an email to several friends regarding the need to hold up the permitting changes. I know of at least four that sent letters or emailed the commission. I know of one that forwarded the email to his shooting club, and I saw where several of them sent letters. I know of another friend that posted the letter on Facebook.
The word is getting out. Please continue to press ahead and make some noise. This can be stopped or deferred. Talking about this in the forum is great but in addition what is really needed is for individuals to contact the Commission. There are just a couple weeks left before they will decide whether or not to allow this to be implemented this season.
Bob- thanks for sending it to your friends. We need to forward the permit changes to all the hunters we know.
Post by: bobcat on March 21, 2010, 09:40:12 AM
Bobcat and Seaduck- you're right, I'm wrong. You can get chosen on 3rd and 4th choice for a less desirable hunt like a cow tag or doe tag.....With this new system having a 3rd and 4th choice for a "quality hunt" will be slim to none. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't think you understand how the drawing works. You can draw a very desirable buck or bull hunt as a 3rd or 4th choice, as long as the hunts you list as your #1 and #2 choice are difficult to draw hunts as well. If your name comes up early enough in the drawing process, and there are permits left for one of your 4 choices, you will get that permit, no matter if you have it listed as #1 or #4.
Post by: winston2789 on March 21, 2010, 10:46:06 AM