Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 21, 2010, 11:40:18 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 21, 2010, 12:25:18 PM
Post by: Curly on March 21, 2010, 12:28:09 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 08, 2010, 05:54:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2010, 06:36:32 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 08, 2010, 06:45:52 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 08, 2010, 06:48:53 PM
By their own website postings it is clear that were not honest. Note how they first said the change would improve draw odds, and then later they posted again to say they don't know:
Earlier post:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html. (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html.)
This approach has several advantages over the current system, which pools all applications for deer permits and for elk permits. First, it would reduce the number of applicants in each drawing, thereby potentially improving hunters' odds of being selected for hunts they prefer.
Later post:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/2010_changes_faq.html)
What if the proposed changes don’t improve the odds of getting drawn?
There are several objectives to changing the way that the permit system application process is conducted. The primary objective is to provide revenue to expand the hunter access program on private lands. Another objective is to create a permit application program that provides greater options for hunters. The odds of drawing a permit within each of the proposed categories rely on the number of applicants. How the changes proposed will affect the number of applications in a category is largely unknown. The concept of increasing the odds of drawing popular permits is important, and the new structure proposed of application by category will allow for future modifications to better achieve that result. Several options for improving the odds of drawing popular permits were discussed with the public during the 2009-11 hunting season package. We will monitor the results of the current proposal before recommending further changes.
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 09, 2010, 01:10:40 PM
Post by: winshooter88 on April 09, 2010, 03:10:29 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 09, 2010, 03:40:22 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 09, 2010, 03:58:17 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 09, 2010, 04:09:14 PM
Post by: winshooter88 on April 09, 2010, 06:53:00 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 09, 2010, 07:02:48 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2010, 07:17:40 PM
Post by: Lowedog on April 09, 2010, 07:19:38 PM
Sadly, you're right that more sportsmen aren't active. I still don't buy the "strong public input and support" line, however.
I would bet that a mojority of WA hunters don't have a clue that this is happening.
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 09, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2010, 07:31:41 PM
Post by: Lowedog on April 09, 2010, 07:44:46 PM
I would also bet your average joe blow hunter will see the changes and be pumped, they get to put in for bull and cow tags......they won't figure out there odds went down or they wont care really.
That is why the dept will see it as a success. Cha ching $$$$$!
Post by: winshooter88 on April 09, 2010, 11:39:24 PM
The 70 out of 70,000 statistic is a lie and it IS the department's fault. How can you say it isn't? Nobody knew about the changes until a couple months ago. So they can't possibly say they got 70 comments out of 70,000 people a year ago on the changes... NOBODY knew what the changes were! If we had known a year ago, we could have sent letters then. But they wait until the changes are pretty much final, and then told us what they were! I hope there is total chaos the day before and the day of the deadline in May, and I hope they get an earful from all the many disgruntled people there are sure to be.
They didn't say that they sent out 70,000 emails a year ago they said that they sent them out right after the March game commission meeting. Sorry I didn't punctuate my original post correctly, I will go correct it.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 09:36:32 AM
The 70 out of 70,000 comments is not the departments fault. Look at the letter writing campaign you tried to get going here, from what I saw on the poll responses there were less than 25 people who responded to that poll. That problem shows that we as sportsmen need to get more involved in trying to make changes. If we don't work for what we want, no one will do it for us.
Yeah that was I and here is something I found in my old email from sometime in 2008. I remember I did participate and was not comfortable whith the way it seemed it was all headed then. My biggest problem was that ANYone, not ( and with the type of mindset here in most of Pugetropolis this could happen) just hunters could find this and ruin everything for us.
If I remember right I forwarded it to everyone of like mind that I knew and posted it on Snowest, Huntingnet (I hadn't found this site yet) and AtV Connection and Pirate 4x4.
AS for yesterday, I found that Gary Douvia seems to be our best friend on the Commission, and that It is no accident that the Comission is forced to make decisions on too short of notice based on information taken on faith from people I relly have doubts can be trusted .
Here it is....June '08 I'll have more later
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501-1091
http://wdfw.wa.gov/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/)
June 23, 2008
Contact: WDFW Wildlife Program, (360) 902-2515
WDFW invites hunters, others to help ..........................................................................OTHERS!!
develop hunting seasons for 2009-11
OLYMPIA - The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is inviting hunters, conservation groups and the general public to help shape state hunting seasons for 2009-11.
Through July 13, WDFW will accept public comments on issues ranging from general hunting hours to mule deer seasons. A questionnaire on those issues is posted on the department's website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/index.htm (http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/index.htm) .
Hunters and others can also suggest their own ideas for future hunting seasons, said Dave Ware, WDFW game manager.
"This is the first of several opportunities people will have to participate in developing hunting seasons for the next three years," Ware said. "We have certain management goals that we must meet, but we want to involve hunters and other members of the public in helping us determine how best to achieve them."
Once the first comment period is over, WDFW will assess recommendations received from the public and use them in developing various season alternatives and proposed hunting regulations for 2009-11, Ware said.
In mid-August, WDFW will post those alternatives for public comment on its website and kick off a series of public meetings throughout the state. Evening meetings are planned Aug. 25 in Everett; Aug, 26 in Aberdeen; Aug. 27 in Tacoma; Aug. 28 in Vancouver, Wash.; Sept. 2 in Wenatchee; Sept. 3 in Spokane Valley; and Sept. 4 in Pasco. Specific times and locations of those meetings will be announced in July.
In March and April 2009, the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission will take public comments and consider adopting the proposed hunting seasons.
WDFW will provide regular updates on the hunting season-setting process via the WDFW website noted above. Interested citizens can also receive updates through the mail by calling (360) 902-2515 and asking to be added to the mailing
;
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 09:42:38 AM
Yeah that was I and here is something I found in my old email from sometime in 2008.A couple questions: did that questionnaire say anything about the permitting changes they just implemented? Second, I don't quite understand the comment about the commission having too short of notice. According to Dave Ware they were told about this change last year. I know that several individuals wrote the Commission (I did) and informed them of the problems with these changes. If they know their sources cannot be trusted on faith, then why didn't they ask for information from other sources, or hold up the changes until they did?
...AS for yesterday, I found that Gary Douvia seems to be our best friend on the Commission, and that It is no accident that the Comission is forced to make decisions on too short of notice based on information taken on faith from people I relly have doubts can be trusted .
Thanks for your information.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 10:21:12 AM
A couple questions: did that questionnaire say anything about the permitting changes they just implemented? Second, I don't quite understand the comment about the commission having too short of notice. According to Dave Ware they were told about this change last year. I know that several individuals wrote the Commission (I did) and informed them of the problems with these changes. If they know their sources cannot be trusted on faith, then why didn't they ask for information from other sources, or hold up the changes until they did?
Thanks for your information.
[/quote]
#1 yes there were questions regarding that which seemed like were too vague, (And with the" hunters others" part on that alert) I found it best to answer all of the questions pertaining to answer :NO Changes
They had questions aimed a limiting choices on an application and reserving permits for out of state hunters (BIG money there) and the type of chit they just did.....to which I and all of my hunting buddies answered Leave it alone
#2 the question about procedures if a hunter was selected for 2 catagories in the same year was brought up by me to Gary Douvia at the break and he brought it up to Ware who seemed to say that a person would loose BOTH sets of points even though page 3 of the agenda book states.....
" IF AN APPLICANT MAKES A MISTAKE, APPLIES FOR THE WRONG HUNT, AND IS SUCCESSFULLY DRAWN, THE SPECIAL PERMIT CAN BE RETURNED TO THE DFW OLYMPIA HEADQUARTERS BEFORE THE DAY OF THE SPECIAL HUNTING SEASON. THE APPLICANTS POINT WILL BE RESTORED TO THE LEVEL PRIOR TO THE PERMIT DRAWING" Caps lock was a mistake -sorry
Is that not descriminating???
#2 furthermore has to do with voting on setting SP goals and quotas without Mr Ware having the information that the changes are based on with him. Mr Douvia voted no on these for deer and elk
more later
I was so into the 2a part that I actually missed where they voted to approve the S/P changes! I actually took the book up to Dave Ware's table to show it to him.
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 10:29:35 AM
" IF AN APPLICANT MAKES A MISTAKE..."
There is the key phrase: you must prove to WDFW that you made a mistake by applying in two categories. Good luck.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 10:33:03 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 10, 2010, 10:37:24 AM
#2 the question about procedures if a hunter was selected for 2 catagories in the same year was brought up by me to Gary Douvia at the break and he brought it up to Ware who seemed to say that a person would loose BOTH sets of points even though page 3 of the agenda book states.....
" IF AN APPLICANT MAKES A MISTAKE..."
There is the key phrase: you must prove to WDFW that you made a mistake by applying in two categories. Good luck.
Sounds like it could be an issue. Maybe a loop hole for issues with the drawing system?
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 10:38:44 AM
#2 the question about procedures if a hunter was selected for 2 catagories in the same year was brought up by me to Gary Douvia at the break and he brought it up to Ware who seemed to say that a person would loose BOTH sets of points even though page 3 of the agenda book states.....
" IF AN APPLICANT MAKES A MISTAKE..."
There is the key phrase: you must prove to WDFW that you made a mistake by applying in two categories. Good luck.
I posted about this before on here. All a person has to do is lie and say he made a mistake, and the points will be restored. What proof would be required, other than somebody's word that he didn't intend to apply for that hunt?
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 10:45:55 AM
This should ony be a problem this year, especially if they have to rectify a lot of 'mistakes".
from the Agenda handout
2 Open public input 9:50am NOTE: during this portion of the meeting the public is encouraged to comment on issues NOT on the agenda for action or decision.
I thought I would get to talk to the commissioners during the break, of which only the man from Bearpaws neck of the woods was really receptive.
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 10:50:36 AM
I posted about this before on here. All a person has to do is lie and say he made a mistake, and the points will be restored. What proof would be required, other than somebody's word that he didn't intend to apply for that hunt?Do you think that will work when WDFW is getting hundreds of these requests in June, and when they can see that you applied for those same permits in the past when they were in one category?
As for proving you made a mistake: it may be that you are guilty until proven innocent, and not the other way around. Accepting permits back and restoring points may create headaches for the department they don't want to deal with. Also, think about the number of undersubscribed hunts they may end up with. Take a cow elk hunt with 10 permits. If 2 of the 10 that draw return their permits, there are only 8 permits out.
I hope you're right but we may need to wait and see.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 10:55:07 AM
After the break Dave Ware presented the proposals to the commission. There was some discussion about the points and about 1 person drawing 2 different permits, but other than asking to have the people drawing 2 permits tracked this year to see if it was going to be a major concern the proposal passed unanimously.
The commission did say that the system may have to be tweaked over the next couple of years, but for right now it stands as it was.
This should ony be a problem this year, especially if they have to rectify a lot of 'mistakes".
.
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 10:57:49 AM
I posted about this before on here. All a person has to do is lie and say he made a mistake, and the points will be restored. What proof would be required, other than somebody's word that he didn't intend to apply for that hunt?Do you think that will work when WDFW is getting hundreds of these requests in June, and when they can see that you applied for those same permits in the past when they were in one category?
I don't know. But I think all they care about is getting people to apply in as many categories as possible, so that they can bring in more money. If they let people turn back in permits then people will be more likely to apply in more than one category, knowing that if they draw two permits, they can turn in the one they don't want and have their points restored.
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 11:14:51 AM
It will cost them something, at least in labor, to restore the points. Many of those who request restoration will be checking back, and that will take more time. What a mess.
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 11:21:23 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 11:22:49 AM
We have been putting in for a Colockum/ Mission any bull tag for 14 years. Chances might be that it could happen.
Now the point dispersal into all catagories will be only available this year. So do we put in for ghost points, or try to draw for a west bar antlerless ( only 10 permits) and take the chance even though there are only 7 pemits between Colockum and mission units. OR we coud put in for Manashtash antlerless and with our combined 60 points squared most likely kick butt there?
If you don,t buy a antlerless app this year, you will start antlerless next year with 0 pts
I just feel waiting 15 years should get you something from this change.
We have only put 2 choices ( Colockum, Mission any bull) on our applications for elk for YEARS so our history would show it could be a mistake to put in for Manashtash if drawn.
In a perfect world ALL would only put in for 1 catagory this year to give them no more money than before, but would all buy into this?
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 11:25:57 AM
If you don,t buy a antlerless app this year, you will start antlerless next year with 0 pts
Where did you get this information? As far as I know, once you have points in a category, they won't go away, until you draw a permit in that category. But actually if they did it the way you are suggesting, I think that would be a good thing. That would be one way to make this change a little more fair to those who don't have a lot of points.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 11:35:34 AM
Item 1
Page 3
Subsection iii
"The point replication will only occur in 2010 during the transition from single species catagories to multiple catagories of the same species....."
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 11:44:17 AM
If you don,t buy a antlerless app this year, you will start antlerless next year with 0 pts
Where did you get this information? As far as I know, once you have points in a category, they won't go away, until you draw a permit in that category. But actually if they did it the way you are suggesting, I think that would be a good thing. That would be one way to make this change a little more fair to those who don't have a lot of points.
True, but you MUST buy an application for that species sub-catagory THIS year. Since I've not put in for antlerless in years, I would start next year with zero antlerless points if I don't give them the extra money this year.
Kind of like the carrot at the end of the stick to get us to buy as many apps as possible if you have a large point total.
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 11:46:00 AM
Leavenworth agenda item book
Item 1
Page 3
Subsection iii
"The point replication will only occur in 2010 during the transition from single species catagories to multiple catagories of the same species....."
OK, but that doesn't say the points will be erased the following year. Your points will be placed in every category. So you will have 14 points in Quality, Bucks/Bulls, Antlerless, Senior, Youth, Disabled Hunter, etc.
Those points will be in those categories until you apply in that category and successfully draw a permit. It's a great deal for someone like you with a lot of points. But it's unfair to those who don't have a lot. Just think, when you turn 65, you will have 14 points sitting in the senior category, just waiting for you to apply and draw a permit.
This is the way I understand it anyway. I could be wrong and I hope I am.
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 11:49:33 AM
True, but you MUST buy an application for that species sub-catagory THIS year. Since I've not put in for antlerless in years, I would start next year with zero antlerless points if I don't give them the extra money this year.
I have not seen that said by anybody or read that anywhere, until now. Did somebody explain it to you this way or are you just interpreting it this way?
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 11:55:24 AM
Leavenworth agenda item book
Item 1
Page 3
Subsection iii
"The point replication will only occur in 2010 during the transition from single species catagories to multiple catagories of the same species....."
Here is the rest................"........Applicants for any new catagory added in the future will begin with THE point awarded at the time of the initial apllication purchase."
So....big Pts= do it this year
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 11:58:49 AM
Quote
Ware, David david.ware@dfw.wa.gov 360-902-2509
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 12:03:56 PM
Just think, when you turn 65, you will have 14 points sitting in the senior category, just waiting for you to apply and draw a permit.Bobcat, I have heard otherwise. What I heard from someone, who heard it from Dave Ware, is that the existing point total per species will be replicated to all categories for that species. HOWEVER, after 2010 the points for categories in which an applicant is not eligible will be set to 0. Therefore I will have points in the Senior and Youth categories this year, but after 2010 those categories will be set to 0 because I am not eligible to be in them.
This is the way I understand it anyway. I could be wrong and I hope I am.
That does not answer the question of what happens to the points in categories for which I am eligible, if I do not apply in them this year. My understanding is the same as yours: my points will replicate this year, and remain intact until I draw or am no longer eligible. For example, someone that turns 16 would lose his Youth eligibility.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 12:07:05 PM
True, but you MUST buy an application for that species sub-catagory THIS year. Since I've not put in for antlerless in years, I would start next year with zero antlerless points if I don't give them the extra money this year.
I have not seen that said by anybody or read that anywhere, until now. Did somebody explain it to you this way or are you just interpreting it this way?
Interpreting, and I will contact them on this. but I see it as saying that if one does not apply in a catagory this year and ADD it in a later year that you get the future totals for points later which in my case for antlerless would be starting at zero ..... Anybody else have a thought on this
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 12:09:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 12:14:26 PM
Just think, when you turn 65, you will have 14 points sitting in the senior category, just waiting for you to apply and draw a permit.Bobcat, I have heard otherwise. What I heard from someone, who heard it from Dave Ware, is that the existing point total per species will be replicated to all categories for that species. HOWEVER, after 2010 the points for categories in which an applicant is not eligible will be set to 0. Therefore I will have points in the Senior and Youth categories this year, but after 2010 those categories will be set to 0 because I am not eligible to be in them.
This is the way I understand it anyway. I could be wrong and I hope I am.
That doesn't make sense. If the categories a person was not eligible to apply in were going to have a person's points deleted after this year, why would they put the points there to begin with? But, none of this makes sense anyway, so nothing they do will surprise me.
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 12:15:54 PM
(So when did this ever make sense?)
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 12:17:56 PM
And I wonder how much of all this additional money brought in by the sale of special permit applications will actually go to providing hunting access on private lands, as they say it will?
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 12:20:34 PM
If I were to not buy an antlerless app this year what will my points be (since I have 14) if I decided to put in for it next year,14 or zero?
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 12:31:05 PM
When I emailed Dave Ware, I believe I got a reply the next day.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 12:36:38 PM
Leavenworth agenda item book
Item 1
Page 3
Subsection iii
"The point replication will only occur in 2010 during the transition from single species catagories to multiple catagories of the same species....."
I hope you are right, but with WDFWs need for money, and why would the word "only" be in there?
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 12:44:43 PM
I'm so fortunate, I have 2 big points that are going into all the categories. :rolleyes:
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 01:00:12 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 01:02:22 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 01:12:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2010, 01:17:08 PM
Post by: winshooter88 on April 10, 2010, 03:40:22 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 10, 2010, 03:44:14 PM
Q: Will I lose all my points if I skip a year?
A: No. You are in the permit drawing system for the life of the system. Your points will be waiting for you when you apply again, even if it is several years.
Post by: Caretaker on April 10, 2010, 06:03:17 PM
Caretaker
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 10, 2010, 07:16:45 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 12, 2010, 11:58:20 AM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/faq/wpsfaq.htm (http://wdfw.wa.gov/faq/wpsfaq.htm)
Q: Will I lose all my points if I skip a year?
A: No. You are in the permit drawing system for the life of the system. Your points will be waiting for you when you apply again, even if it is several years.
You would retain the fourteen points you began the year with, unless you applied for a ghost hunt, and then you would have fifteen!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure feels good to be WRONG!!!!
Post by: Curly on April 18, 2010, 07:48:45 AM