Post by: grundy53 on April 02, 2010, 10:11:43 AM
Post by: superdown on April 02, 2010, 10:36:29 AM
Post by: grundy53 on April 02, 2010, 10:39:57 AM
over in idaho.
Post by: superdown on April 02, 2010, 11:21:05 AM
Post by: AKBowman on April 02, 2010, 12:41:17 PM
...i'm sorry to be a downer but that just looks really bad man. :o
Post by: LittleJohn on April 02, 2010, 12:45:38 PM
Pretty cool picture.
Post by: grundy53 on April 02, 2010, 12:47:41 PM
Post by: AKBowman on April 02, 2010, 01:02:47 PM
its the easiest place to put it. when you get back to the truck after a hike you put it next to you. then its there when you get back out. whats the difference between carrying it there or in a gun rack/ gun case? as long as its not loaded i don't see the big deal. and its legal. :dunno:
I guess I've never hunted like that before. When I used to hunt with a rifle I TRAVELED with it in a gun case...I never considered the DRIVING part "hunting" so there was no need to have the gun sitting next to me in my truck.
IMO those are the kind of things that Anti's use against all of us and we all need to be really careful about how we "hunt" so our children have the same opportunities as we have had.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 02, 2010, 01:04:29 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on April 02, 2010, 01:15:12 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 02, 2010, 01:18:00 PM
Post by: lazydrifter on April 02, 2010, 01:23:29 PM
Post by: markts on April 02, 2010, 01:34:55 PM
Post by: AKBowman on April 02, 2010, 01:41:23 PM
What is wrong with where the gun is :dunno: I carry mine with the barrel up and bolt open. :twocents:Mark
I'm not saying that is is or even should be illegal. In fact I am glad it is legal and want to keep it that way. I just think taking off after a critter that crosses the road by grabbing your gun and taking off after it LOOKS BAD FOR ALL HUNTERS.
People are going to do it and thats fine its your choice. JUST DONT ADVERTISE IT!!
By the way...Deer have ANTLERS not horns. Horns dont fall off and regrow every year antlers do.
Post by: Austrian Hunter on April 02, 2010, 01:46:37 PM
its the easiest place to put it. when you get back to the truck after a hike you put it next to you. then its there when you get back out. whats the difference between carrying it there or in a gun rack/ gun case? as long as its not loaded i don't see the big deal. and its legal. :dunno:
:yeah:
Post by: grundy53 on April 02, 2010, 02:04:50 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 02, 2010, 02:17:10 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 02, 2010, 02:22:18 PM
Why do you have your gun next to you in the cab of the truck?-You gotta be joking..
...i'm sorry to be a downer but that just looks really bad man. :o
Post by: andrew_12gauge on April 02, 2010, 02:58:21 PM
my gun is always the same place as that one or sometimes between the legs and as for no camo lots of people dont wear it, i never used to when i rifle hunted in wa since i was just gonna put orange over it anyway, now that im in idaho im usually in full camo
Post by: Tikka Bird Dog on April 02, 2010, 03:19:46 PM
Post by: spikehunter on April 02, 2010, 04:19:40 PM
Post by: LittleJohn on April 02, 2010, 04:21:44 PM
man, this AKBowman seems to just know everything! some guys have too much time on their hands :chuckle: carry your gun where you want, and call em horns call em antlers.... who gives a sh#!t :dunno::yeah: :yeah: :nono: :nono:
Post by: mkcj on April 02, 2010, 04:53:21 PM
Post by: chester on April 02, 2010, 04:57:37 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2010, 05:08:06 PM
its the easiest place to put it. when you get back to the truck after a hike you put it next to you. then its there when you get back out. whats the difference between carrying it there or in a gun rack/ gun case? as long as its not loaded i don't see the big deal. and its legal. :dunno:
I guess I've never hunted like that before. When I used to hunt with a rifle I TRAVELED with it in a gun case...I never considered the DRIVING part "hunting" so there was no need to have the gun sitting next to me in my truck.
IMO those are the kind of things that Anti's use against all of us and we all need to be really careful about how we "hunt" so our children have the same opportunities as we have had.
What do you mean "hunted like that?" The picture is not of them hunting, they are driving in the truck. You're making a lot of assumptions. What does it matter where the gun is stored while they are driving from one place to another? Besides, as others have said, why not have a rifle where you can get it quickly if you do happen to see a buck? I see nothing ethically wrong with seeing a deer from a truck and then getting out and hunting it. Anti's will have a problem with any way that a deer is killed, they don't care how hard you have to work for it.
Post by: wrangler on April 02, 2010, 05:12:32 PM
Post by: walleye1 on April 02, 2010, 06:46:24 PM
Post by: tony04 on April 02, 2010, 07:16:04 PM
you need your gun close so ya can unload if a gamie stops ya:chuckle:
Post by: Bigshooter on April 02, 2010, 07:26:40 PM
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on April 02, 2010, 07:34:33 PM
Why do you have your gun next to you in the cab of the truck?:bash: :stup: :mor: :mgun:
...i'm sorry to be a downer but that just looks really bad man. :o
Post by: NWBREW on April 02, 2010, 07:42:36 PM
What do you mean "hunted like that?" The picture is not of them hunting, they are driving in the truck. You're making a lot of assumptions. What does it matter where the gun is stored while they are driving from one place to another? Besides, as others have said, why not have a rifle where you can get it quickly if you do happen to see a buck? I see nothing ethically wrong with seeing a deer from a truck and then getting out and hunting it. Anti's will have a problem with any way that a deer is killed, they don't care how hard you have to work for it.
[/quote]
I agree with you bobcat. I don't see anything wrong with having your gun in the cab of you truck....I've done the same thing. AKBowman, not everyone does things the same but it doesn't mean their wrong in doing it. I think you may be jumping to a conclusion that you have no idea what the story is. grundy53....no problems with that in my book
With that said...I will say I cannot stand road hunters
Post by: 7mag. on April 03, 2010, 09:12:39 AM
Post by: roadhuntking on April 03, 2010, 09:46:57 AM
Post by: boonerboy on April 03, 2010, 09:53:27 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 03, 2010, 09:59:37 AM
Same place my gun always is. And I have never ever hunted with camo on during modern rifle season. My dad and grandpa would have given me way to much crap for wearing camo. Both of them only believe city people wear camo. Because city people need all the help they can get while hunting. There opinion not mine.Hey Bigshooter, you remember years ago when you broke down in your yota up around St Michaels area, and my dad and I gave you and your Bud a ride back down to mrock :hello:
Post by: Curly on April 03, 2010, 10:13:32 AM
IMO those are the kind of things that Anti's use against all of us and we all need to be really careful about how we "hunt" so our children have the same opportunities as we have had.
How the hell is an anti going to use that pic against us?
I prefer not to roadhunt, but on occasion I have roadhunted (especially between hunting areas)....and I would keep my rifle right about in that same spot. And I personally wish more people would roadhunt so I have less competition back in behind the gates. I don't think it should be any secret to the anitis that hunters will jump out of a truck and go shoot a deer when they see one.
So, Grundy........about that dollar bill hanging down from the visor......was that from a bet you lost for not getting the deer? Or was it a bet about how long it would take for someone to give you sh!t for road hunting... :chuckle:
Post by: cougkilr on April 03, 2010, 10:29:58 AM
:yeah:Why do you have your gun next to you in the cab of the truck?-You gotta be joking..
...i'm sorry to be a downer but that just looks really bad man. :o
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 03, 2010, 10:37:14 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on April 03, 2010, 06:14:35 PM
Same place my gun always is. And I have never ever hunted with camo on during modern rifle season. My dad and grandpa would have given me way to much crap for wearing camo. Both of them only believe city people wear camo. Because city people need all the help they can get while hunting. There opinion not mine.Hey Bigshooter, you remember years ago when you broke down in your yota up around St Michaels area, and my dad and I gave you and your Bud a ride back down to mrock :hello:
Yeah I remember. How did you know who I am?
Post by: MichaelJ on April 03, 2010, 09:19:15 PM
What is wrong with where the gun is :dunno: I carry mine with the barrel up and bolt open. :twocents:Mark
I'm not saying that is is or even should be illegal. In fact I am glad it is legal and want to keep it that way. I just think taking off after a critter that crosses the road by grabbing your gun and taking off after it LOOKS BAD FOR ALL HUNTERS.
People are going to do it and thats fine its your choice. JUST DONT ADVERTISE IT!!
By the way...Deer have ANTLERS not horns. Horns dont fall off and regrow every year antlers do.
Really dude? ANYBODY that would form an opinion of a hunter from having an unloaded weapon next to them in a rig is not who I'm interested in tiptoeing around... they don't like it, tough sh*t... And the whole antler/horn debate just makes you look like a nitpicky guy looking for anything to correct somebody on... everybody knows damn well what he meant, so why point it out? Just making yourself look like an ass...
Michael
Post by: andrew_12gauge on April 03, 2010, 11:42:59 PM
What a dip *censored*! Who cares what the Anti's think as long as it's legal... I always, as well as everyone I know carry the guns in the same exact spot as in the pic. I am proud to say I have taken a few bucks that have crossed the road in front of me, it's called being prepared and NO, I'm the furthest thing from a "road hunter" there is. Bowman, quit watching those tv hunting shows and GET REAL!!!
i do think that while the picture in question here is not really fuel for the antis, we do need to be aware of what they can use as fuel for the fire, the archery elk hunt fiasco(skagit i believe) late this past year is a perfect example, the actions taken on that hunt were legal in every way(i never heard of any violations stemming from the incident anyway correct me if im wrong) but the actions taken drew so much public outrage that the wdfw is probably going to make drastic changes to the hunt.
Post by: AKBowman on April 04, 2010, 06:29:48 PM
What a dip *censored*! Who cares what the Anti's think as long as it's legal... I always, as well as everyone I know carry the guns in the same exact spot as in the pic. I am proud to say I have taken a few bucks that have crossed the road in front of me, it's called being prepared and NO, I'm the furthest thing from a "road hunter" there is. Bowman, quit watching those tv hunting shows and GET REAL!!!
Guy, you're missing my point. Probably my fault as some things really got lost in translation. Obviously no hunter is ever going to care what an Anti thinks, thier anti's and pea brained one sided idiots. The point I am trying to make is why give them fuel for their fire? I just dont understand.
And joking about having the gun close to you so you can unload if a gamie stops you...that is exactly what I am talking about. I'm sure you were not serious so lets just leave it at that.
I didnt say anything about road hunting and being against it, and I didnt personally degrade anyone on a website. Hope that makes you feel like a big man. Personally I think road hunting creates a lot of situations that make hunters look bad to the non-hunting public.
Didnt mean to come off as a elitist its just I like to hunt and want my kids to do the same thing, when people jump right off the road and do thier thing it turns into a "Skagit Elk" sized log for the Anti's fire which is not a good thing for all hunters.
Didnt mean to offend anyone, nut my opinion does not change.
Hope eveyone has a good year in the woods.
Post by: AKBowman on April 04, 2010, 06:36:22 PM
Why do you have your gun next to you in the cab of the truck?:bash: :stup: :mor: :mgun:
...i'm sorry to be a downer but that just looks really bad man. :o
Not sure what message you are trying to convey. Am I a "stupid moron" for loving hunting and wanting it to be around forever or is the guy in the car a "stupid idiot" for posting a picture on the internet of a bad shot with his gun sitting next to him at the ready in his truck?
Just wondering.
Post by: boonerboy on April 04, 2010, 06:45:50 PM
What a dip *censored*! Who cares what the Anti's think as long as it's legal... I always, as well as everyone I know carry the guns in the same exact spot as in the pic. I am proud to say I have taken a few bucks that have crossed the road in front of me, it's called being prepared and NO, I'm the furthest thing from a "road hunter" there is. Bowman, quit watching those tv hunting shows and GET REAL!!!
Guy, you're missing my point. Probably my fault as some things really got lost in translation. Obviously no hunter is ever going to care what an Anti thinks, thier anti's and pea brained one sided idiots. The point I am trying to make is why give them fuel for their fire? I just dont understand.
And joking about having the gun close to you so you can unload if a gamie stops you...that is exactly what I am talking about. I'm sure you were not serious so lets just leave it at that.
I didnt say anything about road hunting and being against it, and I didnt personally degrade anyone on a website. Hope that makes you feel like a big man. Personally I think road hunting creates a lot of situations that make hunters look bad to the non-hunting public.
Didnt mean to come off as a elitist its just I like to hunt and want my kids to do the same thing, when people jump right off the road and do thier thing it turns into a "Skagit Elk" sized log for the Anti's fire which is not a good thing for all hunters.
Didnt mean to offend anyone, nut my opinion does not change.
Hope eveyone has a good year in the woods.
I'm having a hard time finding where I said anything about unlaoding the gun if a gamie stops you. Could you point that out to me? and yes, I think Mossback was refering to you as being the "friggin moron"
Post by: billythekidrock on April 04, 2010, 06:56:28 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 04, 2010, 07:11:41 PM
Post by: AKBowman on April 04, 2010, 07:22:49 PM
OK, this is off topic and getting out of hand. Drop the crap or you will all be taking a timeout.
Agreed BTKR, really I am just voicing my opinion and that is absolutely it. Not degrading anyone or assuming anything. Trying to stay factual.
Just hope people think a second before acting sometimes.
Best of luck to all. Havea great year
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 04, 2010, 08:13:42 PM
Haha, awhile back I seen a pic of jstamp with a animal and I was thinking god he looks familiar, well after about a year I remembered when We gave you guys a ride down the hill, and I pm'd jstamp if that was him and he told me it was him and you haha, small world!Same place my gun always is. And I have never ever hunted with camo on during modern rifle season. My dad and grandpa would have given me way to much crap for wearing camo. Both of them only believe city people wear camo. Because city people need all the help they can get while hunting. There opinion not mine.Hey Bigshooter, you remember years ago when you broke down in your yota up around St Michaels area, and my dad and I gave you and your Bud a ride back down to mrock :hello:
Yeah I remember. How did you know who I am?
Post by: grundy53 on April 04, 2010, 09:29:51 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on April 04, 2010, 09:42:59 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on April 04, 2010, 10:16:50 PM
Haha, awhile back I seen a pic of jstamp with a animal and I was thinking god he looks familiar, well after about a year I remembered when We gave you guys a ride down the hill, and I pm'd jstamp if that was him and he told me it was him and you haha, small world!Same place my gun always is. And I have never ever hunted with camo on during modern rifle season. My dad and grandpa would have given me way to much crap for wearing camo. Both of them only believe city people wear camo. Because city people need all the help they can get while hunting. There opinion not mine.Hey Bigshooter, you remember years ago when you broke down in your yota up around St Michaels area, and my dad and I gave you and your Bud a ride back down to mrock :hello:
Yeah I remember. How did you know who I am?
Now I remember jstamp telling me he talked to you. It is a small world.
Post by: AKBowman on April 05, 2010, 09:33:09 AM
lol. ifound that dollar on the ground the day i got my bull in '08 (not road hunting) its been on my visor ever since. still is. just to clear the air. we weren't road hunting. but if we saw a deer while driving from place to place im not too good to shoot it. ;)
Totally understandable and its fine if you were road hunting. I would take off after one if I saw it cross the road as well. No qualms here, I would just have my gun in the back in a case...guess its a matter of personal preference. Congrats on your 08' bull.
I still have the last dollar bill that was in my granpa's wallet when he passed away. I used his wallet til it wore out now I keep the dollar bill in a zip lock in my pack.
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 05, 2010, 09:42:16 AM
Reading this amkes me laugh. About 12-13 years ago I was bull huntin up by St Micheals in my old 80 Yota, day before season, rollin back too camp when she died. Alternator went tits up. Had too walk about 6 miles, in the snow, in romeos!! Good times. Saw 4 goats that day down on the North Fork, kinda wierd..I think we have all been there a time or 2 haha, One time way up vail on the Newaukum side my drive line fell off on my old 85 yota! Some how all the nuts rattled off! That was a F'ed opening morning! :chuckle:
Post by: MAVsled on April 05, 2010, 08:48:38 PM
I sure hope so cause if you're aiming behind the shoulder and hit the antler...YOWZA! :o
hope to heck you're hunting a county or so away from where I am. :chuckle:
Post by: chester on April 05, 2010, 10:05:47 PM
Post by: danceswitharrows on April 05, 2010, 10:19:34 PM
you need your gun close so ya can unload if a gamie stops ya:chuckle:
I pooped a little I laughed so hard...thank you for that i am still rolling
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2010, 08:03:39 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 06, 2010, 08:13:30 AM
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2010, 08:49:21 AM
Post by: lewy on April 06, 2010, 12:21:29 PM
Post by: bowtech721 on April 06, 2010, 01:12:24 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 06, 2010, 01:26:35 PM
Quote
you are 100% right. it was poor judgment.
The only thing I see bad judgment in is (I'm assuming here..), that you don't practice shoot to that distance.
The 300winmag is very capable of taking an animal at that range. Up hill. Down hill, Horizontally. I see no issue with shooting straight down on an animal. I've known a lot of hunters over the years that prefer the spine shot or neck shot over the heart/lungs. If your target is sitting/laying still, then I see no issue with this if you're an accomplished shooter and know the trajectory of the bullet being fired.
This is where a range finder with the angle of trajectory comes in handy where it will re-calculate the actual horizontal range to target.
Please read here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm) (especially the last paragraph)
With all that in mind, I'm going to guess that 'straight down' was probably not quite straight down. And, I'll infer that there was a 40 degree down angle as in Chuck's example. So, 400yds becomes 335yds. Now ask yourself.. If you sighted your rifle in a couple inches high at 200yds to attain a MPBR (maximum point blank range) of around 300yds. Horizonally the bullet trajectory only changes a few inches. You point it up a little and it eventually comes down a little. Somewhere 'near' middle range it passes the plain of the scope crosshairs. (horizontal sight)
Please looky here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm)
The 300winmag with a 180gn bullet shoots MPBR to 303yds. Which would signify that you could have just held dead on and hit the kill zone. But instead, you hit antler of a sitting Deer, missing the kill zone (if you held say... 6" low, then you missed by a lot more), by as much as 18"..
Even if the horizontal distance to target was only 200yds, the scope crosshairs would only be oh... And get this, you sighted in horizontally at 200yds... 4.5" lower than bullet path if you sighted in ~2" high at 200yds.
Two possibilities! YOU FLINCHED or the load/rifle is not near as accurate as you think.
Now, I realize that I was not there. I also realize that a buck can move his head and as such the head gear can reach to the top of the spine if he scratches an itch. I'm doubting that you fired when he was putting his nose straight up in the air. I have infered a possible different angle, but please also realize if the horizontal distance was only 15yds, (as an assumed nearly straight down shot), the bullet path would not be much different or 'out of the kill zone at all'. Would you hold a foot low for a buck that was standing across the road from you? NO! You would not. You would aim dead on and have a bullet strike somewhere within the 8" kill zone.
Edit: I'll add another posibility. A 40mph crosswind moved your bullet off the intended path.
You missed, but it was most likely not because you didn't aim low enough.
-Steve
Post by: chester on April 06, 2010, 06:31:51 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 06, 2010, 07:44:16 PM
-Steve
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2010, 09:41:45 PM
Post by: AKBowman on April 06, 2010, 09:59:11 PM
Quoteyou are 100% right. it was poor judgment.
The only thing I see bad judgment in is (I'm assuming here..), that you don't practice shoot to that distance.
The 300winmag is very capable of taking an animal at that range. Up hill. Down hill, Horizontally. I see no issue with shooting straight down on an animal. I've known a lot of hunters over the years that prefer the spine shot or neck shot over the heart/lungs. If your target is sitting/laying still, then I see no issue with this if you're an accomplished shooter and know the trajectory of the bullet being fired.
This is where a range finder with the angle of trajectory comes in handy where it will re-calculate the actual horizontal range to target.
Please read here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm) (especially the last paragraph)
With all that in mind, I'm going to guess that 'straight down' was probably not quite straight down. And, I'll infer that there was a 40 degree down angle as in Chuck's example. So, 400yds becomes 335yds. Now ask yourself.. If you sighted your rifle in a couple inches high at 200yds to attain a MPBR (maximum point blank range) of around 300yds. Horizonally the bullet trajectory only changes a few inches. You point it up a little and it eventually comes down a little. Somewhere 'near' middle range it passes the plain of the scope crosshairs. (horizontal sight)
Please looky here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm)
The 300winmag with a 180gn bullet shoots MPBR to 303yds. Which would signify that you could have just held dead on and hit the kill zone. But instead, you hit antler of a sitting Deer, missing the kill zone (if you held say... 6" low, then you missed by a lot more), by as much as 18"..
Even if the horizontal distance to target was only 200yds, the scope crosshairs would only be oh... And get this, you sighted in horizontally at 200yds... 4.5" lower than bullet path if you sighted in ~2" high at 200yds.
Two possibilities! YOU FLINCHED or the load/rifle is not near as accurate as you think.
Now, I realize that I was not there. I also realize that a buck can move his head and as such the head gear can reach to the top of the spine if he scratches an itch. I'm doubting that you fired when he was putting his nose straight up in the air. I have infered a possible different angle, but please also realize if the horizontal distance was only 15yds, (as an assumed nearly straight down shot), the bullet path would not be much different or 'out of the kill zone at all'. Would you hold a foot low for a buck that was standing across the road from you? NO! You would not. You would aim dead on and have a bullet strike somewhere within the 8" kill zone.
Edit: I'll add another posibility. A 40mph crosswind moved your bullet off the intended path.
You missed, but it was most likely not because you didn't aim low enough.
-Steve
:o
Damn, you gun hunters gota hell of a lot more to think about than I gave you credit for!
Nice write up, thanks for the info.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 06, 2010, 11:06:51 PM
-Steve
Post by: AKBowman on April 07, 2010, 09:49:37 AM
The same pricipals I wrote about certainly apply to an arrow in flight. There are a lot of tree stand bow hunters that have shot over a target game animal, or over-compensated and shot under an animal.
-Steve
That is absolutely true. The principle in fact states an "object" in flight.
You're right about the range finders with the compensation for angles built in. I'm always suprised how much practice it takes to get good at judging "horizontal" distance.
Post by: chester on April 07, 2010, 03:22:42 PM
no worries chester. plus jacks right. im willing to admit when im wrong. as far as the other stuff... i find it funny. lol
you tell your cousin he's famous now? :chuckle:
Post by: grundy53 on April 08, 2010, 07:54:35 AM
Post by: C-Money on April 08, 2010, 08:52:49 AM
Post by: haus on April 08, 2010, 12:53:59 PM
Personally I think road hunting creates a lot of situations that make hunters look bad to the non-hunting public.:o
when people jump right off the road and do thier thing it turns into a "Skagit Elk" sized log for the Anti's fire which is not a good thing for all hunters.
I........you can't be serious, your not, you gotta be jokin' right?
Post by: grundy53 on April 08, 2010, 11:05:00 PM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on April 09, 2010, 10:00:37 AM
Post by: loaderboy on April 09, 2010, 04:33:20 PM
Post by: chester on April 09, 2010, 04:42:50 PM
Post by: haus on April 09, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
Agreed BTKR, really I am just voicing my opinion and that is absolutely it. Not degrading anyone or assuming anything. Trying to stay factual.AKBowman your either really that stupid, or your really creative at stirring the pot and walking away with a smile on your face. If you read your first post, then read the above one, I could compare it to many an arguement with a crazy woman I dated awhile back........I remember watching her stir a pot just like you just did. then turn around and be like "what? what did I do? what is wrong with you people?" :lol4: That girl was psycho.....
Just hope people think a second before acting sometimes.
Best of luck to all. Havea great year
but hey man I'm just trying to stay factual, not trying to degrade you at all :tup: