Post by: Rob on April 07, 2010, 12:51:19 PM
Ultra-Long Range Rifles and Cartridges
By Chuck Hawks
Rifles and cartridges suitable for shooting medium size big game at ranges much beyond 300 yards are relatively few. Shooters with the experience and ability to take advantage of these rifles and cartridges are even fewer.
Yet, judging by my e-mail, there is an inordinate amount of interest in such rifles and cartridges. The majority of the letters I receive about ultra-long range hunting rifles are not from the tiny minority of shooters with the great field experience and proven ability to make use of such rifles, but rather from beginning and novice shooters and hunters. Evidently the wise old pros know better!
What I call "long range" rifles are exemplified by (but not limited to) medium weight bolt action rifles, usually with 22-24" barrels. A good example of such a rifle would be the ever popular Remington Model 700 BDL. When chambered for the .270 Winchester cartridge the 700 BDL comes with a 22" barrel and has an overall length of 42.5 inches. The catalog weight of this rifle is approximately 7.4 pounds, which means it will weigh about 8.4 pounds (or more) when equipped with a telescopic sight.
All of the trajectory information that follows assumes a rifle with a scope mounted 1.5" over the axis of the bore. Bullet velocities are based on typical catalog figures for factory loaded ammunition whenever possible.
Long range rifles are chambered for an assortment of popular cartridges. The .270 Winchester shooting a 130 grain bullet has long been the standard of comparison for long range rifle cartridges. A .270 with this weight bullet is nearly ideal as a general purpose long range rifle. But the .243 Winchester with 95 grain bullets, 6mm Remington with 95-100 grain bullets, .25-06 with 100 grain bullets, 6.5mm Rem. Mag. with 120 grain bullets, 6.5x68 with 140 grain bullets, .270 WSM with 140-150 grain bullets, 7x64 with 140 grain bullets, .280 Remington with 140 grain bullets, 7mm Rem. SAUM and 7mm Rem. Mag. with 150 grain bullets, .300 Rem. SAUM with 165 grain bullets, .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. with 165-180 grain bullets, .300 Wby. Mag. with 200 grain bullets, .300 Ultra Mag. with 200 grain bullets, 8x68S with 170 grain bullets, and 8mm Rem. Mag. with 170-180 grain bullets all have a similar trajectory (assuming bullets with similar ballistic coefficients). These cartridges and loads all offer muzzle velocities of 3000 fps to about 3150 fps. There are other cartridges and loads that have similar trajectories, but those named above are representative of typical long range hunting cartridges.
These cartridges have a trajectory flat enough to allow a point blank range (where the bullet neither rises nor falls more than 3" above or below the line of sight) extending from the muzzle to somewhere around 296-306 yards. Zero a scoped rifle so that the bullet hits about 2.5 high at 100 yards and it will strike about 3" high at 150 yards, roughly 2.3" high at 200 yards, and about 3" low at 300 yards. This will allow solid hits without "holding over" on medium size big game animals (like most North American deer) out to approximately 300 yards or a little farther.
Our standard of comparison, a .270 shooting the 130 grain bullet, has a maximum point blank range (MPBR) of 305 yards according to the Rifle Trajectory Table. The MPBR is the distance at which the bullet falls 3" below the line of sight. Very few hunters that I have met can shoot well enough in the field to take full advantage of that trajectory.
But there is a perceived need on the part of some hunters, no matter how unrealistic, for an even flatter shooting, longer range rifle and cartridge combination. Unfortunately, while there are a few cartridges that can extend that plus or minus 3" point blank range somewhat, it is surprising how little maximum point blank range (MPBR) can be gained without either holding over the target or allowing a mid-range rise which may result in over-shooting at intermediate distances.
A careful perusal of the ammunition manufacturers ballistics tables and the popular reloading manuals reveals that the best of the (at lease moderately well known) ultra-long range cartridges appear to be the .240 Weatherby Magnum (100 grain bullet at 3400 fps), .257 Weatherby Magnum (115-120 grain bullet at 3300-3400 fps), 6.5x68S (120 grain bullet at 3300 fps), .264 Winchester Magnum (120 grain bullet at 3300 fps), .270 Weatherby Magnum (130-140 grain bullets at 3300-3375 fps), 7mm Weatherby Magnum (140-150 grain bullets at 3300 fps), 7mm STW (140 grain bullet at 3325 fps), 7mm Ultra Magnum (140 grain bullet at 3425 fps), .300 WSM and .300 Winchester Magnum (150 grain bullets at 3300 fps), .300 Weatherby Magnum (165 grain bullet at 3350 fps), .300 Remington Ultra Magnum (165 grain bullet at 3350 fps), .30-378 Weatherby Magnum (180 grain bullet at 3450 fps), and 8mm Remington Magnum (150 grain bullet at 3400 fps). As you can see, all of these cartridges launch general purpose hunting weight bullets (for their respective calibers) at 3300-3450 fps.
If you check the Rifle Trajectory Table you will find that the typical trajectory of these ultra-long range magnum cartridges allows a scoped rifle to be zeroed to hit about 2.3" high at 100 yards. From a rifle so zeroed the bullet will hit approximately 3" high at 150 yards, 2.6" high at 200 yards, and about 3" low at 320-330 yards. By going to a big magnum cartridge, and suffering the added recoil, muzzle blast, and expense that entails we have only gained an average of about 20 yards (6.6%) in MPBR over the standard .270 Winchester.
The most over-the-top cartridges among these, using the lightest bullets in their caliber suitable for even the smallest big game animals, can gain a few more yards, but at the cost of their versatility for use on larger game. For instance, the .300 Ultra Magnum with a 150 grain bullet at a MV of 3450 fps has a maximum point blank range (MPBR) of 335 yards. The .257 Weatherby Magnum with a 100 grain bullet at a MV of 3600 fps has a MPBR of 337 yards. The .30-378 Weatherby Magnum with a 165 grain bullet has a MPBR of 342 yards. The .300 Weatherby Magnum with a 150 grain bullet at a MV of 3540 fps has a MPBR of 343 yards.
These are radical, over-bore cartridges shooting the lightest practical bullets, and they average a MPBR of 339.25 yards. This represents an average increase in MPBR of less than 15 yards (4.6%) over the same cartridges shooting heavier bullets of far greater all-around usefulness. By almost any standard that is a poor trade-off.
Compared to the .270 Winchester, with its MPBR of 305 yards with the versatile 130 grain bullet, we have gained an extra 30 to 38 yards of MPBR (a 10% to 12.5% increase). In the case of the .300 Magnums, the price for this modest increase in maximum range is about a 60% to 300% increase in recoil (depending on the specific caliber), a similar increase in muzzle blast and the cost of ammunition, and a decrease in general utility! Seen from this perspective, only the .257 Weatherby makes any kind of sense, as at least its recoil is on a par with the .270 Winchester.
Of course, where I live, a box of .257 Weatherby cartridges retails for almost exactly three times as much as a box of .270 cartridges ($45 compared to $15 at my local discount store as I write these words). I know, because I own a .257 Weatherby rifle and I bought a box of Weatherby factory loads yesterday (120 grain bullets at 3305 fps, a MPBR of 317 yards). This is an excellent general purpose big game load for the caliber, nearly as versatile as the 130 grain .270 load, and I really like my .257 Weatherby rifle. But even I have to wonder if a 12 yard (3.9%) increase in MPBR can justify a 300% higher price for ammunition!
The rifles required to wring the maximum performance from the ultra-long range cartridges are typically fairly heavy rifles with 26" (or longer) barrels. A bolt action Weatherby Mark V Deluxe rifle chambered for the .257, .270, 7mm, or .300 Weatherby Magnum cartridges has a catalog weight of 8.5 pounds. This means that it will weigh about 9.5 pounds with a 3-10x40mm scope (which is, in fact, what my .257 weighs). These rifles come with 26 inch barrels and are approximately 46.6" in length.
It is singularly amazing how relatively little practical hunting range is gained by using an ultra-long range rifle and cartridge (compared to a standard long range rifle and cartridge). To pick up (at best) 38 additional yards of maximum point blank range, a deer hunter has to move from a reasonably handy, medium weight, versatile rifle to a long, heavy, specialized rifle with a huge increase in recoil, muzzle blast, and expense!
Post by: Woodchuck on April 07, 2010, 01:02:22 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 07, 2010, 01:18:50 PM
Post by: Rob on April 07, 2010, 04:21:05 PM
Marginal increases in range in exchange for higher recoil and expense. I suppose out in the 400 to 600 yard range is where you really start to see a difference but those ranges are way out of the league of nearly all hunters for an ethical kill (myself included). I would argue that 80% of the hunters out there should think really hard before taking a shot beyond 200 yards.
On the 270 front, I would be a bit uncomfortable shooting an Elk with a 270 although I know it is more than enough gun - I just want the added energy that the 30 cal rifles like the 30.06, 300 WM, and 338 WM carry.
Post by: ivarhusa on April 07, 2010, 05:03:11 PM
(I also shoot a 40 gr bullet out of my .204 Ruger, and wind drift is clearly a factor out at 300 yds, even more significant than drop.)
Ivar
Post by: shaneman153D on April 07, 2010, 06:18:36 PM
Post by: Alpine Mojo on April 07, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Post by: GoldTip on April 07, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on April 07, 2010, 06:48:24 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on April 07, 2010, 07:25:57 PM
Keep spreading the word Chuck!
Post by: MtnMuley on April 07, 2010, 07:47:33 PM
MPBR is great for short to intermediate range shooting, but having positive clicks on your turrets and good a DOPE card is far more important than where you're zeroed.
Exactly. I really like Chuck Hawk's articles, but my opinion differs from his here. Long live the RUMs, 30/338-378s, and Lazzeroni's! :)
Post by: ICEMAN on April 07, 2010, 07:59:50 PM
MPBR is great for short to intermediate range shooting, but having positive clicks on your turrets and good a DOPE card is far more important than where you're zeroed.
Exactly. I really like Chuck Hawk's articles, but my opinion differs from his here. Long live the RUMs, 30/338-378s, and Lazzeroni's! :)
:yeah:
Post by: madmack76 on April 07, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
Post by: shaneman153D on April 07, 2010, 09:33:25 PM
Post by: MDGrand on April 07, 2010, 09:41:15 PM
Post by: demontang on April 08, 2010, 08:05:44 AM
Post by: Intruder on April 08, 2010, 08:29:45 AM
Post by: Rob on April 08, 2010, 10:45:11 AM
I concur fully on the energy. I fully believe that pushing a more mass at a higher velocity is important for Elk and big mules (less so for a Texas whitetail).
Recoil has never been much of a concern to me. It sucks on the range, but a quick pole question:
How many of you have any recollection of recoil after having taken a shot at an animal? My 7.25 pound 300 WM punishes me on the range, but when shooting her in the field I am totally unaware of recoil. Gotta love buck fever!
Post by: jeepasaurusrex on April 08, 2010, 11:35:53 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 08, 2010, 11:52:03 AM
This is a great article for the help the vast majority of hunters to understand the concept of MPBR. It really shows that for 90+% of situations the choice of modern big game cartridges is largely accedemic. However, the article doesn't really touch at all on Ultra Long range.... stuff well past 500 yards.Exactly. The average hunter probably does not understand that magnums provide little value. On the other hand, the experienced long-range shooter already knows the limitations of his equipment.
I have practiced shooting hundreds of rounds at "longer" distances. I believe with lots of the right practice and the right equipment a hunter can, under optimal conditions, place a killing shot at big game at distances up to 600 yards. There are a very few who can ethically shoot further. Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase. Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms. Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.
Post by: Rob on April 08, 2010, 02:22:07 PM
Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase. Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms. Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.
Well articulated.
Post by: Bofire on April 08, 2010, 02:47:43 PM
I think in this case Hawks is right on but disagree with him on many issues.
Carl
Post by: shaneman153D on April 08, 2010, 05:41:21 PM
This is a great article for the help the vast majority of hunters to understand the concept of MPBR. It really shows that for 90+% of situations the choice of modern big game cartridges is largely accedemic. However, the article doesn't really touch at all on Ultra Long range.... stuff well past 500 yards.Exactly. The average hunter probably does not understand that magnums provide little value. On the other hand, the experienced long-range shooter already knows the limitations of his equipment.
I have practiced shooting hundreds of rounds at "longer" distances. I believe with lots of the right practice and the right equipment a hunter can, under optimal conditions, place a killing shot at big game at distances up to 600 yards. There are a very few who can ethically shoot further. Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase. Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms. Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.
I'll go along with A and B, but not C. Also I think that range can go out much further. Diff of opinion I guess.
Bofire, wouldn't you agree that a 7mm Mag will drop an animal faster than a .308, given the same weight of bullet? That's your difference in energy.
Post by: Bob33 on April 08, 2010, 05:51:49 PM
I'll go along with A and B, but not C.I would say that if you go along with A and B, you probably do go along with C. My point is that shooting animals at extreme distances is taking away something. To me it's like killing fish with dynamite: it's quick, lethal, and effective but not very sporting. However, that is just my opinion. The real issues are A and B: can you make a lethal shot, and can you retrieve the animal? That stops the great majority of the hunting public at something well short of 600 yards.
Post by: BigGoonTuna on April 08, 2010, 06:28:42 PM
Recoil has never been much of a concern to me. It sucks on the range, but a quick pole question:here's a neat little exercise, next time you're out in the woods shooting clay pigeons, bring some mag waterfowl loads and shoot them at a few clays. then draw a bead on an old stump or other target, aim carefully and fire! quite a difference in recoil, eh?
How many of you have any recollection of recoil after having taken a shot at an animal?
a 3" 12 gauge shotshell with a typical load will usually have more kick than a .375 H&H mag.
Post by: Bofire on April 08, 2010, 07:15:09 PM
NO, I have killed game with both, a lot with both. NO the 7mm does not kill em faster or knock em down quicker. As a matter of fact I consider the 7mm Mag the MOST over rated cartridge in popular use.
Carl
Post by: MtnMuley on April 08, 2010, 07:56:48 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 08, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
"But the .243 Winchester with 95 grain bullets, 6mm Remington with 95-100 grain bullets, .25-06 with 100 grain bullets, 6.5mm Rem. Mag. with 120 grain bullets, 6.5x68 with 140 grain bullets, .270 WSM with 140-150 grain bullets, 7x64 with 140 grain bullets, .280 Remington with 140 grain bullets, 7mm Rem. SAUM and 7mm Rem. Mag. with 150 grain bullets, .300 Rem. SAUM with 165 grain bullets, .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. with 165-180 grain bullets, .300 Wby. Mag. with 200 grain bullets, .300 Ultra Mag. with 200 grain bullets, 8x68S with 170 grain bullets, and 8mm Rem. Mag. with 170-180 grain bullets all have a similar trajectory (assuming bullets with similar ballistic coefficients). "
Post by: shaneman153D on April 08, 2010, 08:27:06 PM
Wow! I consider the 7mm Mag to be one of, if not the best long range calibers ever built. :twocents:
+1 7mm is a great cartridge. You can get bullets with BCs in the high .6s. Only thing I would ever replace my 7mm with is a 7RUM.
Okay let me try something else to bring the energy point home.....extreme.....k
What would put YOU on the ground quicker? A knife stabbing you in the heart, or getting hit with the same knife, in the heart, going 100 mph?
If that doesn't bring it home, I'm spent.
Post by: Bofire on April 08, 2010, 08:30:38 PM
the 7 mag just uses 20% more powder, 20% more recoil, and 80% shorter barrell life. I killed more than 10 elk, 30 deer, a few coyotes 4 bear, and misc. other stuff with a 7mag. Thought it was a magical killing machine. well it aint.
In 1971 I killed 7 elk with 7 shots from a 222 rem. game department farmer compliant ORDERED to carry out. I understand the difference between a hole thru, and waiting to die and sometimes things just do not happen like the books say they ought to.
I have some doubt that the 300 mags are enough more effective over the 06 or 308 for hunting. I think if you really need more than an 06, you need a 416 or something!
Carl
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 08, 2010, 08:42:43 PM
Post by: shaneman153D on April 08, 2010, 09:38:58 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 08, 2010, 09:58:28 PM
-Steve
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 07:44:38 AM
two elk from the same herd are standing on the same hill at the same time. two hunters are going o shoot at the same time. hunter a is launching a 100gr .257 tsx at 3700fps. hunter b is launching a 180gr scirocco at 3250fps (estimated, but close). both shots land within the lungs of their equally sized elk at a measured distance of 350 yds. what elk is drt and which elk runs 150 into the nastiest crap arond?
yes the lowly .257 was drt, the 300rum left a big mess and the elk ran off........or I guess the energy crowd might suggest the elk was thrown that far.......lol.
Post by: MtnMuley on April 09, 2010, 08:02:55 AM
ok energy trajectory experts here is a quiz from a real life situation.
two elk from the same herd are standing on the same hill at the same time. two hunters are going o shoot at the same time. hunter a is launching a 100gr .257 tsx at 3700fps. hunter b is launching a 180gr scirocco at 3250fps (estimated, but close). both shots land within the lungs of their equally sized elk at a measured distance of 350 yds. what elk is drt and which elk runs 150 into the nastiest crap arond?
yes the lowly .257 was drt, the 300rum left a big mess and the elk ran off........or I guess the energy crowd might suggest the elk was thrown that far.......lol.
Where did that outcome come from? I am a "shot placement" type believer as being the number one factor for making dead animals, however, those who think energy isn't that important when shooting at longer ranges is.............well.............goofy. :twocents:
PS, I've wasted a lot less meat with bonded bullets out of my RUMs, than I have with non-bonded bullets out of my trusty old .270.
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 08:21:29 AM
Post by: Bofire on April 09, 2010, 08:47:01 AM
Carl
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 09, 2010, 08:51:40 AM
Quote
I am pretty sold on the wee fast tough bullet guns now.
Now.. Both animals turn at the same time. Both bullets hit two rib bones, or worse yet, both bullets hit shoulder or top of leg bone.
Which would you rather have? Light little bullet moving like mini-mouse or heavy big bullet moving like Mike Tyson's fist?
I'll take Mike's fist! Especially on big Bear.
(Don't get me wrong, I love the .270.)
-Steve
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 08:58:15 AM
Post by: Rob on April 09, 2010, 09:27:02 AM
Both bullets hit two rib bones, or worse yet, both bullets hit shoulder or top of leg bone.
Which would you rather have? Light little bullet moving like mini-mouse or heavy big bullet moving like Mike Tyson's fist?
Bingo. that's when energy makes a difference. You can kill a moose with a 22 lr with the right shot placement, but in the woods, things don't always end up like the initial plan was laid out. On larger game, I want the added energy. It's the basic laws of physics...
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 09, 2010, 10:19:57 AM
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 10:33:49 AM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 09, 2010, 10:57:37 AM
Quote
375 cal barnes solid at 5k fps
Makes Hamburger, guts, skins and debones with one shot! :chuckle:
So, with a 9.5 pound rifle.. I'd hate to figure out the recoil energy.
-Steve
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 11:26:43 AM
Quote375 cal barnes solid at 5k fps
Makes Hamburger, guts, skins and debones with one shot! :chuckle:
So, with a 9.5 pound rifle.. I'd hate to figure out the recoil energy.
-Steve
I doubt anything can be worse then my 6.5lb rig launching 180's at 3400......it was relentless on scopes and bedding.
Post by: adam.WI on April 09, 2010, 12:36:05 PM
well I will not reveal the locale, but I launched the 257, my pard the 308. I used to be all about the bigget fastest hardest kicking sumbitch there ever was......I am pretty sold on the wee fast tough bullet guns now. I guess a fubar shoulder does that to a guy.
People fall from 10 story building and survive but I'll be trusting the hundreds that die and steer clear of jumping anytime soon.
Your argument is based on a particular incident. The difference of the elk being in the middle of exhaling or inhaling is enough to skew statistics. I would say you had the better shot placement, not that your caliber is superior.
With that said if you always seem to be making better shots with the .257 that's the gun you should stick with because it works for you, not the gun that should be recommended as superior.
Post by: shaneman153D on April 09, 2010, 12:53:55 PM
well I will not reveal the locale, but I launched the 257, my pard the 308. I used to be all about the bigget fastest hardest kicking sumbitch there ever was......I am pretty sold on the wee fast tough bullet guns now. I guess a fubar shoulder does that to a guy.
Am I understanding this right? Are you saying you're getting 3250fps with a 180gr .308?
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 09, 2010, 01:50:47 PM
-Steve
Post by: high country on April 09, 2010, 02:42:05 PM
Post by: Deep Forks on April 11, 2010, 01:38:46 AM
ok energy trajectory experts here is a quiz from a real life situation.
two elk from the same herd are standing on the same hill at the same time. two hunters are going o shoot at the same time. hunter a is launching a 100gr .257 tsx at 3700fps. hunter b is launching a 180gr scirocco at 3250fps (estimated, but close). both shots land within the lungs of their equally sized elk at a measured distance of 350 yds. what elk is drt and which elk runs 150 into the nastiest crap arond?And a Red Ryder will shoot your eye out. :yike: Give me big and fast and be able to shoot where you want it to hit. :twocents:well I will not reveal the locale, but I launched the 257, my pard the 308. I used to be all about the bigget fastest hardest kicking sumbitch there ever was......I am pretty sold on the wee fast tough bullet guns now. I guess a fubar shoulder does that to a guy.:dunno:
Am I understanding this right? Are you saying you're getting 3250fps with a 180gr .308?
Post by: konrad on April 11, 2010, 06:16:22 PM
I want a large hole so stuff leaks out fast.
I would sacrifice a little trajectory for solid bullet performance and accuracy every time.
Range finders and wind gauges should be mandatory equipment for anyone considering shots over 200 yards at big game. Beyond 300 yards, wind drift is extremely aggravated when using light projectiles.
Herein lays the bug: If you want to shoot long range, minimize the effects of wind and kill truly big game you will need heavy for caliber projectiles leaving at near maximum velocity and put up with the associated recoil generated by both factors.
The 50 caliber Browning is devastating at 1000 yards and beyond. You won't see short/light projectiles in them either. If you shoot the Big 50, you had better be ready for the BOOM.
I am surprised there was no objection to the muzzle blast or flash of the Magnum rounds.
I am an archer, I own 375 H&H's, 7mm’s and black powder muzzle loaders. When I am in the field, I consider myself hunting regardless of the ranges involved...or the weapon I am carrying.
I adjust my effective range accordingly.
Post by: high country on April 12, 2010, 05:00:51 AM
Post by: konrad on April 12, 2010, 07:44:26 AM
muzzle flash is not much of a big deal to me, so far nothing has shot back or required 2 shots.
Same here...
Good discussion and things to consider.
Cheers,
K
Post by: rbros on April 13, 2010, 04:50:24 PM
I am an archer, I own 375 H&H's, 7mm’s and black powder muzzle loaders. When I am in the field, I consider myself hunting regardless of the ranges involved...or the weapon I am carrying.
I adjust my effective range accordingly.
[/quote]
Well said. Practice and good equipment make a huge difference, whether its 100yds or 1000yds. Practice with what you have, and use good shot placement. People are always amazed when they find out we have shot antelope out to 950yds with a 243 Ackley using 105gr bullets. Everyone of the them drops where they stand....shot placement. We do practice alot though and shoot around 25,000 rounds a year. We know our rifles from the 243's up to the 338 Edges and have confidence in the shot providing the conditions are right. It is all hunting if done responsibly, its just a different approach.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on April 13, 2010, 09:57:34 PM
Post by: Cascader74 on July 03, 2010, 12:12:17 AM
Post by: high country on July 03, 2010, 09:48:41 AM
Post by: klickitat on July 03, 2010, 10:07:27 AM
The only exception to long range hunting for me is predator hunting. I actually had to switch over to an AR platform because trying to hit running yotes at 200+ yards is tough.
Post by: Gringo31 on July 03, 2010, 05:09:46 PM
Quote
Shooting 500 yards is not that difficult people.:chuckle: :chuckle:
I'm guessing you wouldn't want to make some sort of bet would you? You and I can go coyote hunting. You get the 450-550 yard shots and I'll clean up everything under 350. Want to put any money on who outshoots who? In real conditions, variable winds, changing ranges....I'm willing to say that it just might be a bit more difficult than you came across.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 03, 2010, 05:33:05 PM
Post by: konrad on July 03, 2010, 05:50:35 PM
Calculating bullet drop on paper is nothing like trying to hit a pie plate at 500 when you are sighted in at 100.
Doping wind conditions adds another layer of complexity most folks never have the opportunity to practice in the field.
Making hits on that same pie plate at 1000 yards is a quantum leap in difficulty over and beyond the 500 yard mark. if you don’t have a place to practice.
I consider myself to be more than a fair shot; however, I would be hesitant to shoot at an animal much beyond 400 as I have never tried poking at any target at that range with my big game rifle.
Post by: Gringo31 on July 03, 2010, 06:02:40 PM
Post by: jjhunter on July 03, 2010, 06:05:12 PM
I'm just wanting to pick up some easy money :chuckle: :chuckle:
Gringo, you take his money, then call me and I'll take his cash and yours...... :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on July 03, 2010, 07:42:48 PM
Post by: Jamieb on July 04, 2010, 12:30:08 AM
He sells articles but I cant stand to read them.
Post by: bearpaw on July 04, 2010, 08:30:01 AM
Just had a long conversation with an old friend from PA last night, he has a 257 WTBY tricked out that shoots a 4.5 inch group consistently at 750 yards. The guy who got him into long range shooting has a 240 WTBY really tricked out that shoots 4 inch groups consistently at 800 yards. This same friend has a son in law that's a US Senator, the Senator didn't believe they were shooting that well until he observed it for himself. I guess the Senator was just astonished by their long range groups. They shoot ground hogs at ranges from 700 to 1000 yards with these guns. The guy has a 300 RUM tricked out that shoots nearly as good of groups for hunting larger game at long range.
Post by: konrad on July 04, 2010, 09:37:18 AM
To my feeble mind this equates well to the World’s Oldest Sport…archery.
There are folks who are proud of groups 8 inches in diameter produced at 20 yards. This level of proficiency can be attained with minimal skill and weekly or semi-weekly practice. Many rifle hunters who use the bow to extend their season fall into this category. Typically, this is the same fellow who has a box of Remington Cor-Lokt that he has owned for three years and has fired four rounds a year…two at the range and two at deer each year. Sadly, I believe there are more “Deer Hunters” that fall into this category than we would all like to admit.
However, there are other archers who strive for 3 inch groups at 50 yards. This level of proficiency requires diligent practice and excellent technique that may only be attained by careful study and many hours on the range. This is the group of men and women that, would it were feasible, would be deadly at 1000 yards were they rifle folk. It is much easier to find a safe, 50 yard archery range to play at than a safe, 1000 yard rifle range.
I, for one, would be playing at those ranges had I the space and opportunity. I think many of my “brethren” would follow suit had they the chance.