ultra long range rifles.... I found this interesting.

[demontang]

Good read but I think the energy is what was missing, the 270 is a great round but ill stick to my 30+ cal for the bigger game animals. I understand not everyone can handle a 9lb 338win, but the knock down power of the round is nice to have. I know my dad became a believer when I shot my bear, before he always asked why I wanted a magnum round and now he wants me to take it when ever we go for bear as a back up gun . I think a lot of this comes to what your hunting and what you can handle and not be scared to shoot.

[Intruder]

This is a great article for the help the vast majority of hunters to understand the concept of MPBR.  It really shows that for 90+% of situations the choice of modern big game cartridges is largely accedemic.  However, the article doesn't really touch at all on Ultra Long range.... stuff well past 500 yards.  BC & bullet weight become major factors.  When you start looking at the cartridge examples like the 270 and 25s they can't hold a card to the Magnum 30s and 338s regarless of how fast you shoot em.  Still a great write up... but maybe the title shoot of been Flat Shooting Rifles.   

[Rob]

Yeah, the title seemed a bit off to me. 

I concur fully on the energy.  I fully believe that pushing a more mass at a higher velocity is important for Elk and big mules (less so for a Texas whitetail).

Recoil has never been much of a concern to me.  It sucks on the range, but a quick pole question:
How many of you have any recollection of recoil after having taken a shot at an animal?  My 7.25 pound 300 WM punishes me on the range, but when shooting her in the field I am totally unaware of recoil.  Gotta love buck fever!

[jeepasaurusrex]

I love my .270 

[Bob33]

This is a great article for the help the vast majority of hunters to understand the concept of MPBR.  It really shows that for 90+% of situations the choice of modern big game cartridges is largely accedemic.  However, the article doesn't really touch at all on Ultra Long range.... stuff well past 500 yards. 

Exactly.  The average hunter probably does not understand that magnums provide little value.  On the other hand, the experienced long-range shooter already knows the limitations of his equipment.

I have practiced shooting hundreds of rounds at "longer" distances.  I believe with lots of the right practice and the right equipment a hunter can, under optimal conditions, place a killing shot at big game at distances up to 600 yards.  There are a very few who can ethically shoot further.  Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase.  Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms.  Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.

[Rob]

Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase.  Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms.  Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.

Well articulated.

[Bofire]

 :)I have never fully bought into the "energy" argument or the "hydrostatic shock" to the blood system either. A big bullet making a big hole works but it has nothing to do with velocity.
I think in this case Hawks is right on but disagree with him on many issues.
Carl

[shaneman153D]

This is a great article for the help the vast majority of hunters to understand the concept of MPBR.  It really shows that for 90+% of situations the choice of modern big game cartridges is largely accedemic.  However, the article doesn't really touch at all on Ultra Long range.... stuff well past 500 yards.

Exactly.  The average hunter probably does not understand that magnums provide little value.  On the other hand, the experienced long-range shooter already knows the limitations of his equipment.

I have practiced shooting hundreds of rounds at "longer" distances.  I believe with lots of the right practice and the right equipment a hunter can, under optimal conditions, place a killing shot at big game at distances up to 600 yards.  There are a very few who can ethically shoot further.  Ethical to me means (a) 9 out of 10 shots at that distance and under those conditions will hit the vitals and kill the animal humanely; (b) retrieval of the animal is 95%+ assured, and (c) the hunter is practicing fair chase.  Fair chase means the animal has a fair chance of escape using its natural defense mechanisms.  Shooting a deer at one mile, even if the first two criteria are met, does not qualify in my mind.

I'll go along with A and B, but not C.  Also I think that range can go out much further.  Diff of opinion I guess.

Bofire, wouldn't you agree that a 7mm Mag will drop an animal faster than a .308, given the same weight of bullet?  That's your difference in energy.

[Bob33]

I'll go along with A and B, but not C. 

I would say that if you go along with A and B, you probably do go along with C.  My point is that shooting animals at extreme distances is taking away something.  To me it's like killing fish with dynamite: it's quick, lethal, and effective but not very sporting.  However, that is just my opinion.  The real issues are A and B: can you make a lethal shot, and can you retrieve the animal?  That stops the great majority of the hunting public at something well short of 600 yards.

[BigGoonTuna]

Recoil has never been much of a concern to me.  It sucks on the range, but a quick pole question:
How many of you have any recollection of recoil after having taken a shot at an animal? 

here's a neat little exercise, next time you're out in the woods shooting clay pigeons, bring some mag waterfowl loads and shoot them at a few clays.  then draw a bead on an old stump or other target, aim carefully and fire!  quite a difference in recoil, eh?

a 3" 12 gauge shotshell with a typical load will usually have more kick than a .375 H&H mag.

[Bofire]

Shaneman153d
NO, I have killed game with both, a lot with both. NO the 7mm does not kill em faster or knock em down quicker. As a matter of fact I consider the 7mm Mag the MOST over rated cartridge in popular use.
Carl

[MtnMuley]

Wow!  I consider the 7mm Mag to be one of, if not the best long range calibers ever built.

[Bob33]

I think that's the point of Hawk's article:

"But the .243 Winchester with 95 grain bullets, 6mm Remington with 95-100 grain bullets, .25-06 with 100 grain bullets, 6.5mm Rem. Mag. with 120 grain bullets, 6.5x68 with 140 grain bullets, .270 WSM with 140-150 grain bullets, 7x64 with 140 grain bullets, .280 Remington with 140 grain bullets, 7mm Rem. SAUM and 7mm Rem. Mag. with 150 grain bullets, .300 Rem. SAUM with 165 grain bullets, .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. with 165-180 grain bullets, .300 Wby. Mag. with 200 grain bullets, .300 Ultra Mag. with 200 grain bullets, 8x68S with 170 grain bullets, and 8mm Rem. Mag. with 170-180 grain bullets all have a similar trajectory (assuming bullets with similar ballistic coefficients). "

[shaneman153D]

Wow!  I consider the 7mm Mag to be one of, if not the best long range calibers ever built.

+1  7mm is a great cartridge.  You can get bullets with BCs in the high .6s.  Only thing I would ever replace my 7mm with is a 7RUM.

Okay let me try something else to bring the energy point home.....extreme.....k

What would put YOU on the ground quicker?  A knife stabbing you in the heart, or getting hit with the same knife, in the heart, going 100 mph?

If that doesn't bring it home, I'm spent. 

[Bofire]

270, 30/06, 280, 7mag. 130-150 grain bullets, from zero to 500 yards there aint 6 vertical inch of difference between them, difference in impact on game is in the shooters imagination, any rifleman can adapt.
the 7 mag just uses 20% more powder, 20% more recoil, and 80% shorter barrell life. I killed more than 10 elk, 30 deer, a few coyotes 4  bear, and misc. other stuff with a 7mag. Thought it was a magical killing machine. well it aint.
In 1971 I killed 7 elk with 7 shots from a 222 rem. game department farmer compliant ORDERED to carry out. I understand the difference between a hole thru, and waiting to die and sometimes things just do  not happen like the books say they ought to.
I have some doubt that the 300 mags are enough more effective over the 06 or 308 for hunting. I think if you really need more than an 06, you need a 416 or something!
Carl