Post by: sneakysneaky on May 03, 2010, 03:18:35 PM
Post by: rackattack on May 03, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
Post by: wastickslinger on May 03, 2010, 03:22:08 PM
Hey everyone. i just put in for the washington special draws and was wondering how many points any of you had when you drew a moose, goat or sheep tag? I have seven pref. points for all three and am wondering if it will actually help or is it just blind luck? :dunno:
I know someone who has been putting in for Moose, goat and sheep for 30+ years and has never drawn. I also knew a guy a few years back that drew moose with 1 point.
LUCK of the drawmy friend. Luck of the draw.
I cant even draw a decent elk tag with 7 points. I gave up on moose, goat and sheep along time ago!
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 03, 2010, 03:22:52 PM
Post by: boneaddict on May 03, 2010, 03:24:53 PM
Post by: boneaddict on May 03, 2010, 03:26:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 03, 2010, 03:45:43 PM
Bet I confused you more than I helped. :chuckle:
Post by: 6x6in6 on May 03, 2010, 03:47:54 PM
Bet I confused you more than I helped. :chuckle:
I had to read that twice. :chuckle:
Post by: Alan K on May 03, 2010, 03:55:18 PM
Post by: sneakysneaky on May 03, 2010, 04:05:25 PM
blind luck huh? damn. I'm not a lucky kinda guy.
A couple of you mentioned "max points". Is there a set limit of points one can earn?
Post by: pat2bear on May 03, 2010, 04:11:43 PM
Post by: wastickslinger on May 03, 2010, 04:13:42 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 03, 2010, 04:19:48 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/results/moose.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/results/moose.html)
Remember, we do not have a preference point system whereby those with maximum points get preference. We have a bonus point system, whereby applicants get more names in the hat but do not get preference. For example, in a pure preference system like Colorado, those with the most points in a drawing get all the permits. Other states allocate a certain percentage of the permits (20%, for example) to those with the most points. Washington simply squares the points but does not set aside a certain number of permits for those with maximum points. Thus you can draw with 1 point, but your odds of drawing after ten years are 100 times greater than the first year (10 x 10 = 100). That does not mean you will draw! Look at the total number of permits, and the total number of applicants. In 2009 there were 138 that drew moose permits, out of a total of 21,407 applicants.
Post by: sneakysneaky on May 03, 2010, 05:15:52 PM
Post by: boneaddict on May 03, 2010, 06:12:07 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 03, 2010, 06:14:16 PM
2200 a pop, plus you can't pu t in for deer or elk if you put in for OIL AND you can only put in for one OIL per year is what gives Idaho their odds.True, but you actually get to hunt for moose once in your lifetime! :brew:
Post by: sneakysneaky on May 03, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 03, 2010, 07:36:16 PM
Post by: Alan K on May 03, 2010, 07:43:44 PM
Post by: Curly on May 03, 2010, 08:00:21 PM
Im sure everybody has heard me say this a million times but I cant stand that Puke Dave Ware, He needs to get *censored* canned asap for ruining our permit system!
I agree. :brew: Let's hope he's up for early retirement.
Post by: sneakysneaky on May 03, 2010, 09:14:00 PM
Well that's just good business, right?. less inexpensive special draw tags and more raffle hunts that generate a $#@* pot of money per animal offered.?! Seems like it's more about $ than game manage :bash:ment.....
Post by: Dansk on May 03, 2010, 09:25:53 PM
The only way to ensure your draw something every once in a while is to play the field and put in for out of state tags (or as many as you can afford). Wash residence odds are often way, way lower than many non-res tags in close states.
Post by: BENCHLEG on May 04, 2010, 05:31:52 PM
Post by: hornhunter on May 04, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
Hey everyone. i just put in for the washington special draws and was wondering how many points any of you had when you drew a moose, goat or sheep tag? I have seven pref. points for all three and am wondering if it will actually help or is it just blind luck? :dunno:
I know someone who has been putting in for Moose, goat and sheep for 30+ years and has never drawn. I also knew a guy a few years back that drew moose with 1 point.
LUCK of the drawmy friend. Luck of the draw.
I cant even draw a decent elk tag with 7 points. I gave up on moose, goat and sheep along time ago!
30 years huh? Looks like he was putting in before the system even existed. Or sombody is :liar:
Post by: shanevg on May 04, 2010, 06:48:14 PM
Hey everyone. i just put in for the washington special draws and was wondering how many points any of you had when you drew a moose, goat or sheep tag? I have seven pref. points for all three and am wondering if it will actually help or is it just blind luck? :dunno:
I know someone who has been putting in for Moose, goat and sheep for 30+ years and has never drawn. I also knew a guy a few years back that drew moose with 1 point.
LUCK of the drawmy friend. Luck of the draw.
I cant even draw a decent elk tag with 7 points. I gave up on moose, goat and sheep along time ago!
30 years huh? Looks like he was putting in before the system even existed. Or sombody is :liar:
Just because the point system didn't exist, doesn't mean people couldn't apply for hunts. How else do people have multiple WA goats? Maybe you should check your facts before you call people liars. :bdid:
Post by: Elkstuffer on May 04, 2010, 08:06:37 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 04, 2010, 08:39:10 PM
30 years huh? Looks like he was putting in before the system even existed. Or sombody is :liar:
What's the matter, you don't remember applying for special permit hunts before the point system? I was applying for special permits at least 10 years before the point system started in 1996. Special permits have been in this state for a long time before 1996.
Post by: Bob33 on May 04, 2010, 08:43:06 PM
sombody is :liar:You're right about that, but I don't think it's the guy that's been putting in for 30 years. I go back farther than that.
Some of you guys really crack me. "Our point system doesn't work" because someone with 1 point got drawn, while someone with 10 points (and 100 names in the hat) didn't. Having more points doesn't guarantee you will draw, it simply improves the odds. Which would you rather have (a) more names in the hat, or (b) less names in the hat? It's really not too hard of a question, is it?
Post by: bobcat on May 04, 2010, 08:43:17 PM
I've mounted over 50 sheep, 10 moose and 4 goats from WA. Not one of those people had max points. The majority of them had less than 5 points and a couple were drawn on there first try. Our system does not work. It is mainly luck on getting a low RANDOM number assigned to you!
I disagree with the part I put in bold. The system does work, or should I say DID work. It was just fine before they changed it this year. The only other way to do it is an actual preference point system, which if we had that just as many people would complain as they do now. The difference would be a young person just starting out would not have a chance in hell of ever drawing any of the most popular permit hunts. I do think that with moose, bighorn sheep, and goat permits they shouldn't use a point system at all as it doesn't help when there aren't enough permits relative to the number of people applying to cycle through people's points fast enough.
Post by: boneaddict on May 04, 2010, 09:05:21 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 04, 2010, 09:12:19 PM
Post by: hornhunter on May 04, 2010, 09:30:38 PM
Hey everyone. i just put in for the washington special draws and was wondering how many points any of you had when you drew a moose, goat or sheep tag? I have seven pref. points for all three and am wondering if it will actually help or is it just blind luck? :dunno:
I know someone who has been putting in for Moose, goat and sheep for 30+ years and has never drawn. I also knew a guy a few years back that drew moose with 1 point.
LUCK of the drawmy friend. Luck of the draw.
I cant even draw a decent elk tag with 7 points. I gave up on moose, goat and sheep along time ago!
30 years huh? Looks like he was putting in before the system even existed. Or sombody is :liar:
Just because the point system didn't exist, doesn't mean people couldn't apply for hunts. How else do people have multiple WA goats? Maybe you should check your facts before you call people liars. :bdid:
Thanks guy! The people that have multiple Wa goats are really old or dead. Long ago it was an over the counter Tag. Maybe you should check your facts :bdid:
Post by: Bob33 on May 04, 2010, 10:00:41 PM
Post by: hornhunter on May 04, 2010, 10:07:38 PM
Post by: Romulus on May 05, 2010, 08:36:01 AM
Post by: Curly on May 05, 2010, 08:46:16 AM
The only way to increase odds is to increase the fees for putting in but most say that is an elitist view making hunting a rich mans sport.
I agree with much of what you said. But the other way to increase odds is to increase the number of permits available. If WDFW would allow more liberal predator hunting seasons and , reduce the number of cow and doe permits, get tougher on poachers, etc... then maybe we could have more animals in this state to support more permits.
Post by: Alan K on May 05, 2010, 09:44:35 AM
I'll take my 1/2000 or so chance at the OIL species so that I can keep on putting in for my deer and elk tags and draw them every 5-6 years. I might get drawn for them, I might not. I know that I can still go to Canada and blast a moose on a meat hunt for around 4k, or even goat and sheep for 10-15k if I wanted to take one that bad.
Post by: bobcat on May 05, 2010, 09:57:23 AM
The only way to increase odds is to increase the fees for putting in but most say that is an elitist view making hunting a rich mans sport.
I agree with much of what you said. But the other way to increase odds is to increase the number of permits available. If WDFW would allow more liberal predator hunting seasons and , reduce the number of cow and doe permits, get tougher on poachers, etc... then maybe we could have more animals in this state to support more permits.
Another way to increase the number of permits is to do away with the general seasons. :yike:
Post by: Alan K on May 05, 2010, 10:01:36 AM
Once you saw the number of names in the hat you can just figure how many times your name is in the hat and divide that by the total and have your true odds of drawing.
Another thing I'd like to know is how they figure if someone is drawn on say a third choice over someone with the same hunt as a number one choice. I'm curious what sort of reduction in your odds of drawing is for your second, third, or fourth choice is. I know it's not the same odds to draw your third choice as your first, otherwise there would be just as many third choices drawn as first across the board on average.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 05, 2010, 10:12:37 AM
I would NOT want Idaho's draw system. I like to know that I have my name in the hat on each of the draws every year, even with a reduced chance of drawing.:tup:
I'll take my 1/2000 or so chance at the OIL species so that I can keep on putting in for my deer and elk tags and draw them every 5-6 years. I might get drawn for them, I might not. I know that I can still go to Canada and blast a moose on a meat hunt for around 4k, or even goat and sheep for 10-15k if I wanted to take one that bad.
I agree, I wish "some people" on here would quit equating the amount that you are willing to spend with how serious of a hunter you are. :bash:
being able to outprice your competition so that there are fewer people appplying to increase your odds of drawing.... :dunno:
you dont need to hunt washington, go to Canada, or Alaska, or Idaho, or whereever you can afford.
I am a working class citizen, with a family of 5 to support.
I dont expect to get drawn, but I still like dreaming.
I have been applying for 30+ years, and used to scrape up the money to apply, then wait for my refund check.
Thinking that going back to that system, or raising fees, or almost all of your suggestions to increase the odds of being drawn, without having more tags is like saying, if you cannot afford to pay, you dont deserve to hunt.
I dont buy lottery tickets because I cannot afford to throw the money away, som of you guys should get in on it, you have a better chance of winning !!
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 05, 2010, 10:17:36 AM
Quote
Another thing I'd like to know is how they figure if someone is drawn on say a third choice over someone with the same hunt as a number one choice. I'm curious what sort of reduction in your odds of drawing is for your second, third, or fourth choice is. I know it's not the same odds to draw your third choice as your first, otherwise there would be just as many third choices drawn as first across the board on average.What that means, if your number comes up, you get the permit for your first choice, unless all permits for that hunt have been given out.
then you get the permit for your second choice, unless all permits for that hunt have been given out.
then the third..etc, if you were selected (your application) and all the hunt choices you made have been given out, then you are S.O.L.
That is one reason you should think carefully about your choices.
Post by: bobcat on May 05, 2010, 10:23:45 AM
Another thing I'd like to know is how they figure if someone is drawn on say a third choice over someone with the same hunt as a number one choice. I'm curious what sort of reduction in your odds of drawing is for your second, third, or fourth choice is. I know it's not the same odds to draw your third choice as your first, otherwise there would be just as many third choices drawn as first across the board on average.
Odds for a particular hunt are not any different as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice.
Post by: Bob33 on May 05, 2010, 10:36:00 AM
Washington does not treat applications that way. Washington draws a name out of the hat, and goes through all that applicant's choices before drawing another name. As previously stated, the process starts with an applicant's first choice: is a permit still available? If yes, then award the permit and process is done. If a permit is not available for the first choice, look at the second choice: is a permit still available? If yes, award the permit. If not, move to the third choice. The process continues until a permit is awarded, or all choices have been considered. If no permit is drawn, the applicant is automatically awarded a bonus point. Again, that is different from some states like Montana and Wyoming. In those states you must pay extra on your application to obtain a bonus point if not selected.
The reason that more first choices are awarded is simple: they are consided first. It is possible to draw on any of the choices.
Post by: Alan K on May 05, 2010, 10:40:11 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 05, 2010, 10:41:05 AM
Post by: Curly on May 05, 2010, 11:04:21 AM
I dont buy lottery tickets because I cannot afford to throw the money away, some of you guys should get in on it, you have a better chance of winning !!
I don't buy lottery tickets either but now that you mention it, I think that is a good suggestion. Probably would be better odds to win the Lotto than draw a "quality" elk permit now....... :)
Once I win the lottery, then I can afford to just buy a governor tag for elk and go to Canada for moose..... :tup: My new hunting/retirement plan is to win the Lotto..... :)
Post by: wastickslinger on May 05, 2010, 12:30:11 PM
guess Im an Idiot
Thanks for owning up to your stupid comments before you did your research. I forgive you for calling me :liar: Beleive me it was not the first time and it wont be the last.
And trust me there are many people in this state that have been putting in for goat for 30+ years.
Post by: Bob33 on May 05, 2010, 12:43:44 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/MGalleryItem.php?id=9377)
Post by: bobcat on May 05, 2010, 12:49:01 PM
Post by: Elkstuffer on May 05, 2010, 12:50:49 PM
Something that I don't agree with is not caping the amount of permits that go to nonresidents and not making residents OR nonresidents purchase a hunting license to apply for OIL hunts. I think all of the states in the west now charge some sort of nonrefundable fee for there licenses if you want to put in for one or more species. :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on May 05, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
Wow! And we have what, 18 permits for goats?15 permits this year; about 38,000 applications last year.
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2010, 01:12:07 PM
Post by: Alan K on May 05, 2010, 01:57:42 PM
That's amazing that just 40+ years ago they issued 900 Goat permits. What happened to all the goats?
Too many goat permits in the past?
[/quote
That's what I was thinking. . . Regret putting out 900 tags? :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on May 05, 2010, 02:10:40 PM
Ponder this question: what will hunters 40 years from now say about the number of elk permits available in 2010?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2010, 02:11:35 PM
Post by: sneakysneaky on May 05, 2010, 03:16:44 PM
I don't have any yet, but I have serious doubts that my future kids will have the opportunity to hunt in the future.
That's probably around the time I move to Alaska. :hello:
Post by: Curly on May 05, 2010, 03:20:36 PM
Post by: hornhunter on May 06, 2010, 01:14:04 AM
guess Im an Idiot
Thanks for owning up to your stupid comments before you did your research. I forgive you for calling me :liar: Beleive me it was not the first time and it wont be the last.
And trust me there are many people in this state that have been putting in for goat for 30+ years.
Yep... I will be on the sidlines from here on out. 409.
Post by: bobcat on May 06, 2010, 07:12:02 AM
guess Im an Idiot
Thanks for owning up to your stupid comments before you did your research. I forgive you for calling me :liar: Beleive me it was not the first time and it wont be the last.
And trust me there are many people in this state that have been putting in for goat for 30+ years.
Yep... I will be on the sidlines from here on out. 409.
What's the matter? You can't handle being told when you are wrong? That's the nice thing about this board is you can learn from others. I've been told I was wrong many times on here. And a couple of times I think I've even been called a moron. :o :)
Post by: boneaddict on May 06, 2010, 08:17:41 AM
Post by: Curly on May 06, 2010, 08:53:52 AM
guess Im an Idiot
Thanks for owning up to your stupid comments before you did your research. I forgive you for calling me :liar: Beleive me it was not the first time and it wont be the last.
And trust me there are many people in this state that have been putting in for goat for 30+ years.
Yep... I will be on the sidlines from here on out. 409.
What's the matter? You can't handle being told when you are wrong? That's the nice thing about this board is you can learn from others. I've been told I was wrong many times on here. And a couple of times I think I've even been called a moron. :o :)
Bobcat, I've been meaning to apologize for calling you a moron....... :sry:
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on May 06, 2010, 09:13:39 AM
Bob, I do see your point, it is more complex than that, however my angst with the current system is that really the better tags are OIL on average, people get drawn once every 18-20 years and if lucky twice in their lifetime (so I suppose in some cases "TIL" :chuckle:. Nonetheless, if the overall draw averages for the quality hunts went up, I think people could better stomach the 1 pointers getting drawn, but that is not likely to ever happen.
Post by: provider on May 06, 2010, 09:30:04 AM
Quote
Another thing sort of on the side. . . I really wish they'd publish the number of names in the hat for each hunt rather than the number of applicants. The number of applicants doesn't tell you anything about the draw odds really, because each applicant could have their name in the hat anywhere from like 1-250 times. (I'd like to see that number for everything, not just the OIL)
http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/species_summary.html (http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/species_summary.html)
Post by: Bob33 on May 06, 2010, 09:33:06 AM
my angst with the current system is that really the better tags are OIL on average, people get drawn once every 18-20 years and if lucky twice in their lifetime (so I suppose in some cases "TIL" :chuckle:. Nonetheless, if the overall draw averages for the quality hunts went up, I think people could better stomach the 1 pointers getting drawn, but that is not likely to ever happen.
That would be nice, except there are only a handful of OIL tags for thousands of applicants. There are 15 mountain goat permits this year. Last year there were over 30,000 applications. The odds are terrible: around 1 in 1000 on average. Overall, the odds cannot improve without more goat permits being offered. It's not the draw system's fault. The fact is that the very large majority (probably over 98 percent) of those who apply for a Washington mountain goat permit will NEVER draw one, so OIL is really NOIL in Washington. Only 15 permits will be given out this year, so the vast majority of applicants will not draw, including those with lots of bonus points.
Post by: boneaddict on May 06, 2010, 09:37:49 AM
Some changes need to be made to weed out the OIL trash. Again I suggest Idaho's system. Then if you are serious and I mean SERIOUS about goat or sheep, then you actually have a chance to draw it in your lifetime. OTHERWISE...its just lotto odds.
Post by: Elkstuffer on May 06, 2010, 12:36:57 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on May 06, 2010, 11:51:25 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 07, 2010, 01:01:38 AM
Again I suggest Idaho's system. Then if you are serious and I mean SERIOUS about goat or sheep, then you actually have a chance to draw it in your lifetime. OTHERWISE...its just lotto odds.Here are draw odds for Idaho tags in 2009:
Moose Goat Sheep
Permits 306 46 63
Non resident applicants 165 173 923
Non residents drawn 20 4 5
Odds, 1 in: 8 43 185
Post by: MtnMuley on May 07, 2010, 12:44:45 PM
in this state more bling luck seen my cosuins little bro draw a moose tag with no points first time putting in
This cracks me up! Wouldn't this be your "cosuin" too?... :dunno: :P
Back to the subject. I agree with bones thoughts on a SERIOUS OIL system. Our system offers everybody the possibility of a moment of excitment as the results get posted. More for some, and less for others. I have never known this state to really try and manage wildlife to the full extent :twocents:, and be concerned more with revenue generated that anything else. This system and its modifications do just that. Hell, I have max points in all OILs, more than max in Elk, and I still don't plan on drawing. Guess that's not too positive of thinking when you only put in for 1 hunt choice in all, but building a point every year still gives you the thought of "next year the odds are going to be even better". My overall opinion is that this state is going to continue to do whatever it takes to generate the maximum amount of revenue (reguardless of the effects on it's wildlife), and continue to give everybody anticipation that it may be their year, with 1 point or 20 pts.........
Post by: boneaddict on May 07, 2010, 12:54:27 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 07, 2010, 01:24:01 PM
The odds on washington OIL tags is so bad it sickening...I bet 49 degrees north has 20,000 apps this year.... Yet we all still line up for the kick in the nuts.
The part that really pisses me off is they know that the new changes are going to wreck the already bad odds for OIL tags... Why not limit OIL apps to two choices? its good enough for the quality tags??
Post by: MtnMuley on May 07, 2010, 03:58:45 PM
Why not limit OIL apps to two choices? its good enough for the quality tags??
Exactly. Or better yet, 1. ;)
Post by: Alan K on May 07, 2010, 07:34:52 PM
Again, I'll take a greatly reduced chance at the OILs if it means I can still put my name in the hat for other species.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 07, 2010, 07:39:22 PM
Post by: Alan K on May 07, 2010, 07:49:42 PM
Post by: BENCHLEG on May 22, 2010, 10:02:12 PM
Post by: PA BEN on May 23, 2010, 12:55:21 PM