Post by: konrad on May 20, 2010, 07:30:14 AM
1. If it were mechanically possible and physically possible to shoot a 500 grain arrow as fast as you wanted, how fast would be satisfactory?
300 fps
400 fps
500 fps
600 fps
700 fps
fill in the blank_________
2. Is there are point where arrow speed becomes “unethical”?
Post by: let.it.fly on May 20, 2010, 07:36:27 AM
Post by: Matt on May 20, 2010, 07:43:10 AM
Post by: wastickslinger on May 20, 2010, 07:50:36 AM
Post by: Old Dog on May 20, 2010, 07:55:48 AM
Post by: addicted on May 20, 2010, 08:18:33 AM
Post by: xXx Archery on May 20, 2010, 08:39:54 AM
OK, now my questions are:
1. If it were mechanically possible and physically possible to shoot a 500 grain arrow as fast as you wanted, how fast would be satisfactory?
300 fps
400 fps
500 fps
600 fps
700 fps
fill in the blank_________
2. Is there are point where arrow speed becomes “unethical”?
1.....this a dumb ? ...as for how fast..
2 Unethical ....this has NOTHING to do with SPEED ..it is the HUNTER that is Unethical
I feel some of you guys think all the speed bows are bad ....remember....its still up to YOU...I shot the fastest bow out last year 366 fps.
the nice thing about a fast bow I can SLOW it down...so now I shot my bow at 60lbs ...not 70 any more and I shot a good arrow at 410 grains at 302 fps....
we all know that 190 fps will KILL game and so will 400 fps just like 190 fps will WOUND game and so will 400 fps.
most guys like to have there bows shooting about 280 fps
I would like to see a guy shooting a nice 60-62lbs getting 280fps more than that guy shooting a slower bow at 70+ lbs and to long of draw so he can shoot 280fps.
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 20, 2010, 11:10:56 AM
Post by: MasterMisser on May 20, 2010, 11:43:12 AM
take old dog's specs. he is shooting a 475grn arrow @ 175fps
so 175*175= 30625 / 450240 = 0.0680192786 * 475 = 32.31 ft lbs of Kinetic Energy. This is enough to kill Deer but i personally wouldn't use it on larger game like Elk
Here is mine... arrow weight 385 grns speed 321 fps
321*321= 103041 / 450240 = 0.22885794243 * 385= 88.11 ft lbs of Kinetic Energy... that's MORE THAN ENOUGH :chuckle:
I believe there is an unethical amount of energy one can use... As hunters we owe it to the animals ETHICLAY
Post by: garyltbh on May 20, 2010, 12:52:31 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 20, 2010, 01:23:45 PM
Post by: Jellymon on May 20, 2010, 05:45:54 PM
Post by: Ratdog68 on May 20, 2010, 06:44:19 PM
All this other "Madison Ave says ya gotta have..." stuff is... well... :hello:
Well... you asked. :chuckle:
Post by: halflife65 on May 20, 2010, 07:57:20 PM
it would completely change the hunt for me if i had equitment that could kill game at 100 yrds everytime i dont think it will be long befor the fish and game limit archers even more than they have thats why we hunt with archery equitment because we are limited with what we can do with our archery equitment if bows get any faster why not just go back to gun hunting i bow hunt for the hunt and 255 fps is fast enough for me and i think that the guys and gals that shoot long bows and recurve get more out of the hunt than i do i think ill go with the slower bows befor i speed up anymore the compound bows of today are fast enough for anyone if you need more get a gun :twocents: :twocents:Despite the one giant sentence, I think that you might be driving to the original point. When does bow hunting not become bow hunting any longer because you can make 100 yard (or longer) shots? I think somewhere in the upper 200's seems reasonable. You can make ethical shots, even on larger animals, using a reasonably heavy arrow but you still have to get close enough to shoot. Just my opinion - I have a lot of respect for people that are successful with longbows and recurves.
Post by: Button Nubbs on May 20, 2010, 08:18:35 PM
Post by: Ratdog68 on May 20, 2010, 08:52:28 PM
My longbow shoots a 475 grain arrow at 175 fps. People have been feeding themselve with that type of set up for 10,000 years, so I'd say it was fast enough. :dunno:
Yup... and all this talk of how important KE is? :bdid: Again... Madison Ave says ya gotta use all these latest mechanical marvel broadheads with two and three pairs of blades, deployed by the impact of the solid/blunt nosed head, spring loaded ... etc. etc. etc. Hogwash !! If you buy into the "need" for all that "stuff" to have to punch into/through the critter, then yes, you do need "punch". That's not what kills the game, that's what it takes to make the equipment deploy all of the built in wizzardry. :P
If you have a two-blade, cut on contact broadhead that's sharp enough to make you bleed by just looking at it... it doesn't take "punch" to get the job done. Infact... the felt affect of the arrow passing through may be nearly non-existent... and your quarry might even do the wobbly dance before your very eyes with hardly a step taken after being hit. Stealth baby !!! Whisper quiet shot too. :IBCOOL: :IBCOOL:
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2010, 11:01:58 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 22, 2010, 02:22:39 PM
Post by: Jake T on May 25, 2010, 09:01:18 PM
I love this... Speed is only 1 part of the equation! Its all about Kinetic energy!!! The more energy the better.
careful there. if you go only by the math, a .22 has enough KE to take down a moose at 100 yards.
Post by: konrad on May 26, 2010, 04:58:04 AM
I love this... Speed is only 1 part of the equation! Its all about Kinetic energy!!! The more energy the better.
careful there. if you go only by the math, a .22 has enough KE to take down a moose at 100 yards.
Great point!
Folks tend to get wrapped around the axle about technology when, in fact:
Speed without accuracy/stability/consistency is pointless.
Kinetic energy valuations and archery are interesting; however, penetration is the primary goal when killing with arrows. An arrow does not kill with hydrostatic shock and never will. An arrow’s ability to continue straight along the same entry path while severing connective, arterial, nervous and muscle tissue and deliver that energy over an extended period of time while passing through the target is how it has and always will kill most effectively.
An apparently flat trajectory is good as long as we do not sacrifice terminal performance.
All that being said, how much speed will ever be enough?
Post by: Matt on May 26, 2010, 07:00:31 AM
Most bowhunters and 3-D guys, when they look at the spec sheet of a bow they go straight to the IBO fps. And that is fine. But it isn't anything. I remember when I got a Z-max. 326fps that was about as fast as it got. Now that is average. If I can shoot a 400+gr broadheaded arrow around 280fps I am more than happy. If the bow has an 8" brace, 60lbs and shoots that same arrow 300fps even better.
Post by: elkoholic on May 27, 2010, 08:03:33 AM
I'm shootong a vectrix plus at 73lbs and a 30" draw with a 430grn arrow, I gets her done....
Post by: colockumelk on May 27, 2010, 09:51:32 AM
Post by: monster10 on July 08, 2010, 11:34:50 PM
OK, now my questions are:
1. If it were mechanically possible and physically possible to shoot a 500 grain arrow as fast as you wanted, how fast would be satisfactory?
300 fps
400 fps
500 fps
600 fps
700 fps
fill in the blank_Im shooting a 455 grain @ 302 and it crazy, 1 peg to 40 and hits hard._____
2. Is there are point where arrow speed becomes “unethical”?
Post by: coachcw on July 09, 2010, 08:01:59 AM
Post by: addicted on July 09, 2010, 08:03:35 AM
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 09, 2010, 10:38:24 AM
Good lord coach! What are you trying to do? Blow through an animal and the tree behind it? :D
Post by: Recurve-Elk on July 09, 2010, 04:36:01 PM
I don't really care about speed as long as I can make a clean honest kill with my bow.
Post by: coachcw on July 15, 2010, 12:39:30 PM
Post by: Machias on July 15, 2010, 03:59:52 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 15, 2010, 05:27:04 PM
Post by: konrad on July 15, 2010, 08:17:24 PM
670 grains @ 275fps... I don’t want to meet you in a dark alley.
I thought I was doing pretty good at 490 grains and 235 fps.
Post by: haus on July 21, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
Post by: Hornseeker on July 21, 2010, 06:51:29 PM
Recurve... your typical recurve, at 55# will shoot a 570 grain arrow about 175-185... high performance recurves will hit 188-195 with that arrow... at 28" draw!!
I am set up to shoot about 465 grains at about 249 fps.... the accurracy and stability of this setup really seem unreal..... Cant wait to lay the hammer down on something with it!
Post by: Lowedog on July 21, 2010, 07:14:29 PM
Post by: Hornseeker on July 21, 2010, 08:47:03 PM
Post by: Tony 270 on July 21, 2010, 10:48:41 PM
Post by: Recurve-Elk on July 22, 2010, 02:49:56 PM
Coach, are you trying to say you have a bow or have seen one that shoots a 670 grain arrow at 275?? :chuckle: Is it a 110# bow?
Recurve... your typical recurve, at 55# will shoot a 570 grain arrow about 175-185... high performance recurves will hit 188-195 with that arrow... at 28" draw!!
I am set up to shoot about 465 grains at about 249 fps.... the accurracy and stability of this setup really seem unreal..... Cant wait to lay the hammer down on something with it!
Ya thats kind of what I figured. I have a long ish draw too at 30.5 inches, so that should tack some more fps on there.
Post by: Hornseeker on July 23, 2010, 06:47:43 AM
Post by: let.it.fly on July 23, 2010, 07:20:20 AM
Post by: Recurve-Elk on July 23, 2010, 01:55:15 PM
Oh man RC.. I wish I had a long draw! 2.5 inches over 28 is very significant...I'll have to look at my records, but I think you are gaining at least 5 fps per inch, so you could be shooting easily into the 200 fps area...which is fantastic...
Good to hear!!! I just can't wait to use my recurve hunting this year. Ive always used a compound so its going to be a completely different game.
Post by: Hornseeker on July 23, 2010, 02:48:01 PM
DANG!
Yeah RC...its a fun deal. I'm actually taking the compound out this year for the first time in 5 years.
Post by: haus on July 23, 2010, 03:10:01 PM
Well, if he was shooting something with an IBO of 350, had 80lb limbs and a 31 inch draw he would be right around that.yeah. but what arrow setup would you have to shoot? go with a 30" piledriver or FMJ and add a bunch of weight? because at 80lbs and 31" draw there's spine flex problems.
Post by: Recurve-Elk on July 23, 2010, 03:12:40 PM
Well, I was just informed that my HOyt, if it was 80# and drew 30 1/2 inches...would do that 670/275 deal...
DANG!
Yeah RC...its a fun deal. I'm actually taking the compound out this year for the first time in 5 years.
Awesome! I guess its really just changing it up, that what makes it interesting
Post by: konrad on July 23, 2010, 07:01:23 PM
I am not sure what could be done with a high draw weight, ultra-fast compound bow.
Perhaps the GrizzlyStik with weights and points?
They say their 30 inch GrizzlyStik Safari with a 200 grain point will run 775 grains+ with 3, 5 inch feathers.
The shafts are carbon composite and tapered from front to rear for extreme FOC and rigidity.
I spoke with Mr. Schliff one day for about a half an hour at Alaska Bowhunting:
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/default.aspx (http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/default.aspx)
on shooting his arrows with the compound and he was adamant that not only would they work but they would be devastating. Of course, we were only discussing my feeble 27 inch draw length, 61 pound draw weight and 29 inch arrows.
Post by: coachcw on July 28, 2010, 10:13:48 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on July 28, 2010, 10:47:38 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 09:17:17 AM
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 09:22:31 AM
Post by: konrad on July 29, 2010, 10:17:31 AM
Us mere mortals were wondering how you got to those figures.
I supposed you were in the “hundreds of pounds” draw weight. My damaged hands could never handle those forces. For me, it would be physical abuse.
I have never experienced the shoulder issues referred to by many, it has always been the hand (drawing/releasing). Over the years, work and finger tabs just took their toll.
It appears you are truly shooting the 375 Holland and Holland of bows!
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 12:02:28 PM
Post by: yakimarcher on July 29, 2010, 12:29:47 PM
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 08:58:32 PM
Post by: Dmanmastertracker on July 29, 2010, 09:17:17 PM
Here is mine... arrow weight 385 grns speed 321 fps
321*321= 103041 / 450240 = 0.22885794243 * 385= 88.11 ft lbs of Kinetic Energy... that's MORE THAN ENOUGH :chuckle:
-I guess I'm currently at 73.177 ft lbs kkke. The rig I would like to buy would go to 88.15 ft lbs.
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 09:28:49 PM
Post by: konrad on July 29, 2010, 09:56:34 PM
your bow would have to be 62 lbs to be leagal , how do get 321 at 62 lbs. isn't 6 grains per pound the rule by the wdfw ? or isn't that the law now ?
six grains per pound of draw
40 pounds draw minimum at 28 inch draw length or greater
arrow weight minimun of 300 grains
methinks
Post by: coachcw on July 29, 2010, 10:14:02 PM
Post by: konrad on July 30, 2010, 08:07:34 AM
From a marketing standpoint I understand why the hype is out there. You sell more products, so you can generate more profits, so you can do more R&D. I see it all the time, folks buying the latest Monster only to be craving the new X or Z. the very next year and all this because of a slick ad campaign. Those who are really caught up in the chase may be willing to sacrifice arrow weight in the hopes of squeezing every last drop of velocity from their “old” bow. I think that is OK if you are only hunting foam. When it comes to our furry friends though, we need to be thinking about ethical kills/shots and what could go wrong…not hope that everything is perfectly right (kind of sounds like a government report I read recently).
I will say that the industry as a whole is improving but sometimes in the rush for bragging rights (8 more fps) the soul of the sport gets lost.
I still gotta say a 100 pound draw bow still seems positively medieval.
Post by: croix on July 30, 2010, 08:38:37 AM
I have a feeling that alot of guys are light on there arrow wieghts
thank you. i thought i was losing my mind reading some of these arrow weights/speeds.
btw - the fmj 400's will also get you over the minimum, but the 400's will be underspined for anything over about a 28" draw at 70 #
Post by: Lowedog on July 30, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
I think you are right there Coach. Many archers, particularly those not so…seasoned… shall I say, have been convinced arrow speed is everything. Advertising and the quest for the “latest and greatest” instead of focusing more on woodcraft are currently driving the market.
From a marketing standpoint I understand why the hype is out there. You sell more products, so you can generate more profits, so you can do more R&D. I see it all the time, folks buying the latest Monster only to be craving the new X or Z. the very next year and all this because of a slick ad campaign. Those who are really caught up in the chase may be willing to sacrifice arrow weight in the hopes of squeezing every last drop of velocity from their “old” bow. I think that is OK if you are only hunting foam. When it comes to our furry friends though, we need to be thinking about ethical kills/shots and what could go wrong…not hope that everything is perfectly right (kind of sounds like a government report I read recently).
I will say that the industry as a whole is improving but sometimes in the rush for bragging rights (8 more fps) the soul of the sport gets lost.
I still gotta say a 100 pound draw bow still seems positively medieval.
I am great full for the latest and greatest. Just because IBO ratings are done with a light arrow doesn't mean you have to shoot one. I can shoot the same 420 grain arrow with my Destroyer 340 set at 60lbs that I shot with my Guardian set at 70 lbs at the same speed. The 340 also has a better draw cycle and is as forgiving or more than the Guardian and just as quite. My bow before the Guardian was a Trykon and at 70lbs it was another 10fps slower with the same 420 grain arrow with an even worse draw cycle.
So when one of our furry friends presents a shot I am thankful that I am only drawing 60lbs to get the same results as what 2 year old technology took 70lbs to get. I welcome the advancements!
Post by: coachcw on July 31, 2010, 07:43:53 AM
Post by: haus on August 02, 2010, 10:52:31 AM
ok this is the currant set up no kidding , I have a tubrotech with #100 limbs at 30 inch draw . I shoot it last night at 92lbs it will go to 96 lbs , with a 2419 and a 100 tip it wieghed 607 grains and shot 282 fps thats 107 kkkE. with a 150 tip it shot 274 at 555 at 96 lbs it shoots a 670 at 274. I shot a fullmedal dangerous game with a wieght tube wieghing 950 grains 229 fps it made right 113 ke. So put your bs smiles where you want and i'll prove it , Why should I bs you , It's a killer combo and i use it in the wind and or brush where the heavy arrows an advantage . It's not my problem that some pansies can't pull 100 lbs . the realizism is the alhpa burner at 80 lbs almost has the same numbers. sorry tyo burst you nay sayers bubbles.easy there barney rubble, I don't think anyone was callin bs on ones ability to pull a bow back. Least in my case I just wanted you to answer the questions, don't be so sensitive :chuckle: Thanks for explaining the arrow setup, was the reason for me that 670g@275fps didn't equate because I couldn't find any high gpi aluminium. Seems the 2419 has been discontinued and removed from the Easton site. better stock up.
I do know what you mean about smoother aim when shooting a heavier draw weight. I've had the same preference to an extent....that being up to 70lbs. I'll admit I'm too afraid of limb blowing apart at full draw, let alone being strong enough. a 90lb limb malfunction :yike: sht going wrong at 70lbs is more than I care to experience.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 02, 2010, 11:00:11 AM
Post by: haus on August 02, 2010, 12:41:23 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 02, 2010, 01:19:51 PM
Post by: coachcw on August 03, 2010, 08:54:24 PM