Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: ML_Hunter on July 09, 2010, 12:32:49 AM

Title: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 09, 2010, 12:32:49 AM: I started playing with new bullets for my front-stuffer. I shoot a TC Black Diamond in .50 and with my previous bullets could only group about 12 inches at 100 yds. I though my eyes were going bad!

A friend of mind suggested I try the Barns TMZ bullet. All I have to say is AWESOME!!! I shot a 5 shot group in about 2 inches (think god my eyes are still good...well kinda good). So I just love the accuracy of this round and have played with a few other since, and get the best grouping out of the TMZ's. But I have one issue with them. THEY ARE A PAIN IN THE A$$ TO PUSH DOWN THE BORE!! >:(

Any one has any ideas? I've tried lubing up the round with some bore butter which dosent help much. If I was just shooting at the range, I'd live with it, but can bear the thought of what it would take to reload in the field.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 10, 2010, 08:10:18 PM: well, I just ordered some new sabots. Maybe another sabot will will just a little smaller to make it easier.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Lowedog on July 11, 2010, 09:27:18 AM: I use them and have had no problems stuffing them down into the barrel of my Bighorn. They are a little tight with a clean barrel. I burn the APP sticks and after the first shot they slide down pretty easy. I also use a short ramrod with the Barnes aligner to start them. They do shoot great! http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,33389.msg396325.html#msg396325 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,33389.msg396325.html#msg396325)

Maybe your barrel isn't completely clean? Just a thought. Seams like I read somewhere that products like Bore Butter can cause a build up that will make sabots tough to load.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 11, 2010, 05:25:34 PM: yeah if you use a bullet starter to get it started it makes them go down better and give ya a little head start always seems like the first 6-8" is the hardest for me with them.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 11, 2010, 08:50:56 PM: I did take my black diamond down and soaked the barrel for about 20 minuets, took a brush to the bore with 30 swipes, and then soaked it for another 15 minuets. make sure everything was clean and put it all back together. So I was confidant the bore was as clean as could be! ;) Still had a hard time loading it. :dunno: I am afraid that these new sabots will cause me to loose volosity but I do love the bullet, and love the accuracy i'm getting with them. If I can make it somewhat easier to load in the field, i'll be looking to harvest some four leged critters with it :)
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 11, 2010, 08:56:21 PM: yeah you could always switch out the sabots on the bullets and try that as well get the dia of the bullet "pretty sure it is on the pkg" then order some diffrent sabots and see what ones you like better and you are right the tighter the sabot is in the bore the higer the vel will be.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Blsum on July 12, 2010, 10:47:03 PM: Just out of curiosity what do you do at the range. Are you doing any cleaning after your shots. Or are you just reloading and shooting? Also what kind of powder you shooting?
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: dawhunt on July 13, 2010, 07:05:28 AM: Don't know about you guys but when I'm at the range sighting in,I clean the barrell after every shot
only takes a couple min.

After the gun is sighted in I'll shoot 3-4 before cleaning to see how it shoots with a dirty barrell.

bob
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 13, 2010, 08:39:52 PM: After every shot or some times every other shot I run 2-3 wet patches down the bore and 2 dry patches. Then load the bullet :bash:...pull my breach plug, push the bullet down the bore, clean the breach and breach plug wile I'm at it, then replace the breach plug. This time adding powder, then the bullet push it down with the bullet started tipped with the barns tool, push it the rest of the way with my ramrod tipped with the barns tool, lay down on the bench, cap my rifle, place on fire...aim...stop :bdid: put rifle back on safety, retrieve my ram rod from the bore, sit back down at the bench aim...squeeze trigger...take rifle off safe, and fire!! :bash: forgot to aim!!!! Repeat

lol joking of course! I've only loaded with out powder once, lost me a doe! Never forgot to retrieve my ram rod, but a guy at the range shooting next to me once did ;D he was ok, we took a moment to make sure the rifle was ok, called range clear for we now had to repair the 100 yd wire which was DESTROYED!! and his ram rod was no more so we shared one. And laughed about it later.

But I do clean my rifle almost between each shot. Its the TMZ's are typically harder to load after I clean the bore, so I'll clean every other shot, the second shot is a little easier to push down. I use 115-120 grains lose of T7.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 13, 2010, 09:01:06 PM: :chuckle: that ramrod arrow has killed a few critters over the years :chuckle:
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 13, 2010, 09:09:23 PM: I used to have a friend who was a game warden in WA (now he's Fed based in Montana). He once arrested a guy shooting an Elk with a .410 GA in archary season. Was using a single shot H&R and hand loaded the .410 shell with just the powder and wad, then pushed an arrow down the bore. My friend was watching this elk head from about 200 yds away and watched as a group of hunters were stalking them and tried to call them closer. He then heard a gun shot and one of the elk went down after running a little ways. This guy shot the elk form what looked like 120 yds from J's vantage point. J then drove down to investage and saw the guy walk up on the elk with his recurve bow and pulled him for questioning. Found the .410 in this truck and several of the shells with out any shot, then found the wad from the SG as he walked from where the shot was taken to where the elk were standing.

Needless to say, this guy was locked up for 8 months and can not purchase a hunting or fishing license for the next 10 years.

:bdid:
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 13, 2010, 09:13:33 PM: hahaha have shot them like that before :bdid: not animals :chuckle: but my cousin had a 410 he was doing that with and got me to try it i was not impressed at all by it and was not very accurtate to boot. but heard of guys doing it around here as well kinda crazy :chuckle:
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Lowedog on July 13, 2010, 09:37:35 PM: Nice thing I have found with the American Pioneer Powder is that I don't have to worry much with fouling. APP claims to have shot over 5000 shots through a rifle without cleaning the bore. Don't think I will go for that but I have never had a problem loading even after a bunch of shots and accuracy doesn't suffer much.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 13, 2010, 09:59:58 PM: Quote from: Lowedog on July 13, 2010, 09:37:35 PM
Nice thing I have found with the American Pioneer Powder is that I don't have to worry much with fouling. APP claims to have shot over 5000 shots through a rifle without cleaning the bore. Don't think I will go for that but I have never had a problem loading even after a bunch of shots and accuracy doesn't suffer much.

I've head horible reports about that powder and with so much negitive feedback, I'll never use them, even with the postive i've heard. But honest heard 80% negitive 15% Postive 5 % no differnt from T7.
-------------------------------
Just a few reviews i've read

1 starsFrancis Lee of Sauquoit, NYDate posted: 11/18/2008
This is the worst stuff I have ever used. Incomplete ignition, you can see burning pellets flying down range. No accuracy because the bullets never get to the target because the pellets don't ignite completely. It fouls badly to in spite of claims otherwise. Was this review helpful?Yes | No18 found it helpful | 2 did not1

starsDave Cooper of Cincinnati, OhDate posted: 12/13/2008
Poor ignition, powder did not provide adequate combustion, poor performer. Was this review helpful?Yes | No17 found it helpful | 0 did not
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Lowedog on July 13, 2010, 10:19:13 PM: I have read the same things but also talked with people first hand who use it and none of them have had those problems and neither have I. I decided to try it for myself and so far have not experienced a single problem. I use CCI #11's to light things.

I will say that I find no difference in performance with Pyrodex Pellets that I was using before. The clean up is what did it for me.

While doing some research I did find that it seems that the APP had a period of time where things were somewhat inconsistant.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 16, 2010, 06:54:55 PM: Well, I just got my new sabots today and got a new package of TMZ's. Looks like we'll have good weather this week meaning i'll be...doing yard work :bash:. I'll have to make some time to head out to the range and see what happens.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: BillyG on July 17, 2010, 08:01:52 AM: I have all the same issues as you. I picked up a small tee handle that attaches to the ramrod to help my grip and also ware a glove. Having good luck with T7 mag pellets 50gr each and musket caps, 100gr charge. Very happy at 100, 200, and just for fun 300yards! Over the crony, around 2000 fps. I do find that they load easier after the first shot. I'll take the accuracy and not worry about the rest. After all a little adrenalin goes a long ways!
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 17, 2010, 08:40:23 PM: I purchased 3 of those little t-handles and all three have broke...so I'm not a fan. TC now makes ramrods with a medal t-handle so i may try that. there just a bit $$$
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: dawhunt on July 18, 2010, 12:00:35 PM: Quote from: BillyG on July 17, 2010, 08:01:52 AM
I have all the same issues as you. I picked up a small tee handle that attaches to the ramrod to help my grip and also ware a glove. Having good luck with T7 mag pellets 50gr each and musket caps, 100gr charge. Very happy at 100, 200, and just for fun 300yards! Over the crony, around 2000 fps. I do find that they load easier after the first shot. I'll take the accuracy and not worry about the rest. After all a little adrenalin goes a long ways!

Let us know how the sabots work for ya.
Bob
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 18, 2010, 01:06:20 PM: yeah will good to hear how they work out for ya
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on July 20, 2010, 09:32:14 AM: Here is an interesting article about why the Barnes bullets may be tight in your gun and be hard to load.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_bullet_for_muzzleloader.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_bullet_for_muzzleloader.htm)

I haven't tried them yet but I am going to get some today and try them in my Bighorn.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Machias on July 20, 2010, 10:25:52 AM: Great article, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Lowedog on July 20, 2010, 03:11:54 PM: Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 20, 2010, 07:01:57 PM: Good articl...maybe these TC sabots will then do the trick with the TMZ bullet. If it works well i'll post all the info. Thanks guys!!
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Dan-o on July 20, 2010, 10:26:02 PM: I ran into a guy at the range who gave me a few and they shot real well out of my Black Diamond. Shot about a 3" group at 100 yards, which for me is great (better than anything else I've tried).

So I bought more and they are accurate out of my rifle.

They don't load real easy, but not all that difficult.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 20, 2010, 10:34:35 PM: LOL, Dan-o I'm glad they worked out of your black diamond. I do really like the bullet and like you my grouping size was about 3" when I shot my first batch. But I also broke a ram rod trying to load the bullet :bash:. Totally my fault, but got me into looking to see if i can get the same performance and yet making the bullet just a tad easier to load. I'll let you know how these new sabots work, still sticking the with the TMZ, just a new plastic sleeve.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Dan-o on July 22, 2010, 09:59:34 PM: Sounds good ML Hunter.

I'll look forward to hearing if a different sabot works better.

P.S. I don't break ram rods reloading at the bench....... Only when an elk is staring at me wondering what that really load noise was. :'(
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 22, 2010, 10:08:46 PM: :o that would suck bad!
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Dan-o on July 23, 2010, 07:14:03 PM: Yes, it would and yes it did.

I still remember that spike staring at me while i tried to load with my ramrod in 3 pieces....

I can still see him tilt his head while looking at me from 40 yards and wondering what I was trying to do so frantically.

Funny, but those first couple muzzy years I had so many incredible opportunities, I got to learn what not to do in a hurry. Elk seem harder to come by now that I'm not totally incompetent.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 25, 2010, 01:31:58 AM: I got the new sabots in the mail last week along with another batch of TMZ bullets, they were cheaper online so I figured why not! Well I've been waiting all week to get an opportunity to try them and finally on Thursday I had the chance. I headed out to Evergreen Sportsman Club and got there just after 12 noon where I found they were hosting a huge shotgun shooting event and there rifle range was being used as a campground. It would have been nice if they kept there web page up to date so I could have known this in advance >:(. So, up the logging roads of Capital Forest I went attempting to find a suitable and safe area to shoot. Well finally I came across a landing with a nice dirt backstop. I rolled a log against the dirt backing and placed a "Shootn'C" Target on the end of the stump and back up 45 yards which was as far away from it as I could. I also had a new bi-pod on my rifle so I flipped down and extend the legs and took aim, first the the bullet with the factory sabot. BANG, dead center :IBCOOL:

I then poured another 115 grains of 777 down the bore of my Black Diamond XR, grabbed another TMZ bullet and placed the new TC sabot on it replacing the factory sabot. When I went to place this bullet down the bore I was just amazed!! The same bullet with the new TC sabot was significantly easier to push down the bore!! But this test is not over yet. I seated the bullet without even using the starter, just pushed it down with my ramrod. I was worried that with the new sabot being so easy to load, that I was going to lose velocity. Well, I sat down and took aim. BANG I looked at the target and was very disappointed, I did not see a second hole in the my target. As I walked up to the stump to see where the bullet hit, I noticed that the first hole was oblong, I shot the same hole! :IBCOOL:

I'll have to do some shooting at 100 yards and shoot more than two bullet but at the moment I'm happy with the new sabots. I'll have to get a hold of one of my friends who have a cyrno to see how much velocity I'm losing, but if my grouping is still good at 100 yards, I'll order up another hundred of these new sabots.

I'll do some more testing prior to recommending this to anyone, but if your looking at the same sorts of issues, it may be worth a try!

Happy Hunting all! Bear season opens in just one week :IBCOOL:
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Lowedog on July 25, 2010, 08:46:30 AM: Thanks for the update! Sounds like you may have found the cure. Where online did you order your stuff from?
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 25, 2010, 03:39:19 PM: I purchaed it from Midway USA. I attached the link below.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=738785 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=738785)
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Sportfury on July 25, 2010, 09:37:10 PM: Hey ML Hunter I will have to give these a try since we have the same muzzleloader. You will be the go to guy since you are ahead of me in getting stuff. It was great meeting you at the hunt-wa BBQ.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 26, 2010, 05:24:31 PM: Let me know how it works out for you. I had a blast talking with you at the get together.
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Dan-o on July 26, 2010, 08:49:47 PM: Great report. I'll have to give it a try in my Black Diamond XR.

Thanks,

Dan
Title: Re: Barns Spit-Fire TMZ
Post by: Dan-o on July 26, 2010, 08:53:12 PM: Great report. I'll have to give it a try in my Black Diamond XR.

Thanks,

Dan