Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 12:28:37 PM
Post by: woodswalker on August 05, 2010, 12:34:26 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 05, 2010, 12:34:38 PM
Post by: haus on August 05, 2010, 12:36:52 PM
how so?
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 05, 2010, 12:39:41 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 12:39:57 PM
I guess I'm just excited to be out hunting, looking for that first bear. I am all for conservation, habitat renewal, good stewardship, and the like. However, when faced with a legal animal I will be tempted to take it. I like to think I have the discipline to not shoot a sow without some effort spent to make sure there are no cubs but....I am sure the temptation will be there when faced with my first shooter bear.
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 12:40:22 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 05, 2010, 12:44:15 PM
Momma would be the rug and baby the slippers maybe?Bedspread, and pillow case ?
:chuckle:
Seriously (and I am no expert) but if it was one of this years, I would pass, but if it is one of last years.. :mgun2:
Post by: runamuk on August 05, 2010, 12:46:08 PM
So, without creating a debate on the right/wrong moral/ethical question of whether or not to shoot a sow with cubs, what do you think the odds are that a cub would survive without a mother to protect it. I ask because I am honest enough to say I will have a hard time in the heat of the moment deciding what I should do. I am looking for my first bear this year and probably won't know my decision until I am faced with it. So, please stick to topic and don't bash if someone mentions taking a sow with or without knowing she had cubs. Just looking for opinions regarding cub survival.
truth is age of the cub and its health are gonna be the determining factor the older the cub the better survival rate in general a whole lot of other stuff comes into play but learning the rough size to age might ease your mind a little....
Post by: haus on August 05, 2010, 12:51:12 PM
How so?not questioning your values or saying either choice is right or wrong. I haven't shot a bear yet either, this is my first year really going after them specifically, and I made the decision already. No doubts. I don't have an ounce of risk of temptation. If we're talkin small buck vs holding out for big buck then I understand temptation, but in this case I just don't get it. Just me I guess. :dunno:
I guess I'm just excited to be out hunting, looking for that first bear. I am all for conservation, habitat renewal, good stewardship, and the like. However, when faced with a legal animal I will be tempted to take it. I like to think I have the discipline to not shoot a sow without some effort spent to make sure there are no cubs but....I am sure the temptation will be there when faced with my first shooter bear.
Post by: Kain on August 05, 2010, 01:05:29 PM
Even after the first year a juvenile bear that is very hungry can be REALLY dangerous. You could be putting other people at risk.
I know that it happens, most of the time accidentally, (I hope) but we should try our hardest to make sure that we dont take a sow with cubs.
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 01:05:47 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 01:07:02 PM
Post by: dirty24d on August 05, 2010, 01:07:18 PM
These are just my observations and opinions and in no way am i trying to come off like an expert. i wouldnt hesitate to shoot a sow with last years cub for sure.
Post by: Hunter Dug on August 05, 2010, 01:48:06 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 01:52:01 PM
I think that is a great point in any hunting situation. Thanks for putting that out there.
Post by: seth30 on August 05, 2010, 02:38:37 PM
Post by: 50CalJim on August 05, 2010, 03:30:37 PM
Post by: unluckyjohn on August 05, 2010, 03:46:58 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 05, 2010, 03:53:16 PM
If legal, would you bait?
Post by: runamuk on August 05, 2010, 03:59:03 PM
that might be an interesting poll
If legal, would you bait?
heck yeah
and it would make it a little simpler to not shoot sows with cubs
I'd like to hound hunt as well
Post by: BLUEBULLS on August 05, 2010, 04:02:15 PM
Cubs grow up to elk killers too ;)
how big does a cub have to be for someone to shoot it?
I've killed some big bears and this year I'm taking my 4 year old, A yearling might hit the dirt. the kids need a bear rug too :)
Post by: Kain on August 05, 2010, 04:46:16 PM
Post by: shanevg on August 05, 2010, 06:00:14 PM
As for baiting - I would definitely not bait. I love that fact that our state has no hound hunting and baiting because it makes great opportunities for spot and stalk bear hunting which is what I really love any ways. I have no desire to spend hours in a tree stand watching a barrel and waiting for a bear to walk in, I much prefer to go hiking around and try to find them. I hunt all the same areas my dad used to hunt when he was younger and he says he never saw the number of bears that we see now. I think that is in a large part due to the lack of baiting and hound hunting. Our state is actually good for one thing - we have arguably the best spot and stalk black bear hunting in the west. Considering our deer and elk hunting sucks so much, I want at least one species that has some good hunting.
Personally, I am happy we have no baiting or hound hunting.
Post by: bear on August 05, 2010, 06:33:34 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 05, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
Post by: one-eyed Ross on August 05, 2010, 07:04:40 PM
For me, I understand the process involved in asking the question, and I also understand the answers quite well. Hunting ethics are a learned value, something we pass along to our youngsters - hopefully the lessons stick. I'm thinking that the lesson has stuck with you, or you wouldn't have asked the question. Your are looking for advice on the ethical thing to do - and I think you already, in your heart, had the answer, and know what you will do.
Good hunting, good luck, and thanks for reminding all of us that we have a moral/ethical responsibility to be a good steward.
Post by: washelkhntr on August 05, 2010, 07:06:36 PM
Post by: Gutpile on August 05, 2010, 08:18:05 PM
Post by: jimmyt on August 05, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
Post by: seth30 on August 05, 2010, 08:31:31 PM
my story on momma with cubs a friend of mine called me and said he was going to shoot this bear that there three together so i asked him if it was cubs and he said that they were pretty good size so i told i would not shoot a sow with cubs this was his first bear he calls me later and tells me that he shot it and gutted it and we will pack it out in the morning. I talked to my brother his wife's dad is a Fish and Game biologist he said that the cubs will not survive without there mother for food and protection from other boars and preditors the next day we go pack this bear out and the two cubs are cuddled up with there dead mother pretty sad they had eaten all of her guts and would not leave without us throwing stuff and yelling at them if you like this story shoot a mother with cubs i wont and my buddy will never do it again:yeah:
Post by: ribka on August 05, 2010, 08:55:14 PM
my story on momma with cubs a friend of mine called me and said he was going to shoot this bear that there three together so i asked him if it was cubs and he said that they were pretty good size so i told i would not shoot a sow with cubs this was his first bear he calls me later and tells me that he shot it and gutted it and we will pack it out in the morning. I talked to my brother his wife's dad is a Fish and Game biologist he said that the cubs will not survive without there mother for food and protection from other boars and preditors the next day we go pack this bear out and the two cubs are cuddled up with there dead mother pretty sad they had eaten all of her guts and would not leave without us throwing stuff and yelling at them if you like this story shoot a mother with cubs i wont and my buddy will never do it again:yeah:
x2
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on August 05, 2010, 09:01:12 PM
Post by: Bscman on August 05, 2010, 09:35:34 PM
Washington has a large population of bear. If you are putting your time in, learning your prey, and keeping an eye out for sign...you'll come across more than one bear in the season. Take your time, be selective, and for gosh sakes leave momma bear there to tend to the cubs.
I've not yet taken a Washington bear, either so I know where you are coming from.
I've had opportunities several years running, but I find myself enjoying the hunt more so than just needing to pull the trigger...watching these critters and the way the forage and feed is rewarding enough most of the time. When you do see a sow with cubs...sit back calmly and watch the way they interact. It will be much more rewarding than a rug on the wall--and you've still managed to experience something very few people get to experience. Better yet, pack a camera and get it all on film to show your friends.
Once the shot is taken, you can't call it back. If you're not 100% confident in the situation you should have ZERO issues with just saying no. Self control...practice it. ;)
Post by: 840dc on August 05, 2010, 10:17:17 PM
Post by: ML_Hunter on August 05, 2010, 11:28:10 PM
my story on momma with cubs a friend of mine called me and said he was going to shoot this bear that there three together so i asked him if it was cubs and he said that they were pretty good size so i told i would not shoot a sow with cubs this was his first bear he calls me later and tells me that he shot it and gutted it and we will pack it out in the morning. I talked to my brother his wife's dad is a Fish and Game biologist he said that the cubs will not survive without there mother for food and protection from other boars and preditors the next day we go pack this bear out and the two cubs are cuddled up with there dead mother pretty sad they had eaten all of her guts and would not leave without us throwing stuff and yelling at them if you like this story shoot a mother with cubs i wont and my buddy will never do it again
At this point you and one other hunter should have taken the cubs. They are dead anyways, your just ensuring they don't suffer any more than what they already had. :twocents:
Post by: Hangfire on August 05, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
I really enjoyed bear hunting up to that time. I do not care if I ever shoot another bear. I can still hear and see those little cubs, which were about cocker spaniel size.
Post by: nocklehead on August 05, 2010, 11:35:01 PM
Post by: dirty24d on August 05, 2010, 11:41:55 PM
Post by: lewy on August 06, 2010, 07:03:19 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 06, 2010, 07:08:45 AM
Post by: machine on August 06, 2010, 09:30:45 AM
Post by: GoldTip on August 06, 2010, 09:58:45 AM
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 10:15:35 AM
A buddy of mine a few years back located a nice bear in a big salmon berry patch, he watched it for several minutes, didn't see any cubs and shot it, when he got to the dead bear there were 3 little cubs clinging to her dead body crying like little baby's. It was a sick site to see. Probably the best thing he could of done for them was to shoot them and put them out of their misery.
Post by: h20hunter on August 06, 2010, 11:43:26 AM
Post by: haus on August 06, 2010, 12:40:33 PM
As for shooting a sow with cubs - if this years cubs, don't even consider it. If last years cubs, I would take the sow.
As for baiting - I would definitely not bait. I love that fact that our state has no hound hunting and baiting because it makes great opportunities for spot and stalk bear hunting which is what I really love any ways. I have no desire to spend hours in a tree stand watching a barrel and waiting for a bear to walk in, I much prefer to go hiking around and try to find them. I hunt all the same areas my dad used to hunt when he was younger and he says he never saw the number of bears that we see now. I think that is in a large part due to the lack of baiting and hound hunting. Our state is actually good for one thing - we have arguably the best spot and stalk black bear hunting in the west. Considering our deer and elk hunting sucks so much, I want at least one species that has some good hunting.
Personally, I am happy we have no baiting or hound hunting.
How the hell? 'Our deer and elk hunting sucks, but your glad we cant bait or hound hunt for bears' thats how I interpreted this post. did I read it wrong?
Post by: Kain on August 06, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
Post by: Machias on August 06, 2010, 01:06:53 PM
As for shooting a sow with cubs - if this years cubs, don't even consider it. If last years cubs, I would take the sow.
As for baiting - I would definitely not bait. I love that fact that our state has no hound hunting and baiting because it makes great opportunities for spot and stalk bear hunting which is what I really love any ways. I have no desire to spend hours in a tree stand watching a barrel and waiting for a bear to walk in, I much prefer to go hiking around and try to find them. I hunt all the same areas my dad used to hunt when he was younger and he says he never saw the number of bears that we see now. I think that is in a large part due to the lack of baiting and hound hunting. Our state is actually good for one thing - we have arguably the best spot and stalk black bear hunting in the west. Considering our deer and elk hunting sucks so much, I want at least one species that has some good hunting.
Personally, I am happy we have no baiting or hound hunting.
>:( >:( >:( Dude your absolutely clueless.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 03:34:34 PM
But it is most definitely the easiest and most effective way to control bear populations and right now bears are out of control in most areas.
What is not fair for the rest of us is all the people that do still bait!! They should still play by the rules.
Post by: GoldTip on August 06, 2010, 03:38:27 PM
Have you ever tried either method of hunting? And yes I said hunting.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 03:41:37 PM
Spot and stalked bear for about 7 years and have only taken two. Definately rewarding though
Post by: runamuk on August 06, 2010, 03:47:40 PM
If a person sits and watches a berry patch they are using food to bring a bear to them ;) no difference when baiting except it can allow for a easier detection of sows with little cubs.....
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 03:51:11 PM
Post by: Kain on August 06, 2010, 03:56:46 PM
Humans have developed tool use, strategy, and intellect in place of claws, teeth, speed, hearing, smelling, eye sight. How are we any less of a predator if we use our gifts to harvest animals?
Do you think a lion gives a rip how anyone feels about setting up at a water hole to harvest an animal. Do you think it cares how "fair' or "sportsmanlike" killing baby animals or cornering something so it cant get away. Of course they dont because they are hunters and so are we.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 04:00:18 PM
And agree baiting and hounding never should have been banned.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 04:16:08 PM
Still hunting just differant that's all.
Post by: haus on August 06, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
True hunting as in using your own tracking,stalking,glassing skills etc.:rolleyes: Thats not true hunting, thats just a different way to hunt. I'm an archery hunter, am I more of a true hunter than a rifle hunter? No. Your definition of 'true hunting' is another guys definition of doing it the 'easy way'. Where do you draw the line?
Post by: haus on August 06, 2010, 04:23:42 PM
Maybe "true hunting" wasn't the right term. What I meant was "hunting one on one", using your own instincs and senses to harvest an animal. Not using glazed donuts or bacon grease to bring a bear in or using man's best friend to chase him up a tree.There ya go ;)
Still hunting just differant that's all.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 04:33:45 PM
But personally think it would be more rewarding doing it the other way. The hard way :rolleyes:
Post by: Kain on August 06, 2010, 04:41:15 PM
Maybe "true hunting" wasn't the right term. What I meant was "hunting one on one", using your own instincs and senses to harvest an animal. Not using glazed donuts or bacon grease to bring a bear in or using man's best friend to chase him up a tree.
Still hunting just differant that's all.
I see where you are coming from I just have to disagree. How is using a food source any different than using a call, decoy or scent attractant? Are those things not hunting? So are tree stands "not" hunting? You are not using your tracking, glassing, stalking skills if you are in a tree stand or hunting blind. Of course you have to pattern the animals, locate a stratigic spot for the stand, use camo to remain undetected...Oh wait the same things you do when baiting.
Hunting is: Using your resources to locate, pursue, and harvest something.
Post by: singleshot12 on August 06, 2010, 04:56:02 PM
Post by: shedcrazy on August 06, 2010, 05:30:53 PM
Post by: Hangfire on August 06, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 06, 2010, 09:42:19 PM
Post by: bearbaito6 on August 06, 2010, 11:01:57 PM
Hound hunting is hunting, just different than spot and stock. It is one of the most time consuming expensive ways to get a bear. Your hunting starts when you get a pup, the training caring for the dogs, vet bills, etc. Hound hunting is most comparable to catch and release fly fishing. The participant is more knowledgeable about the quarry, how to get it and if it isn't what he wants he walks away leaving it in the tree to be chased another time. If you have ever hound hunted any thing, you find out what hard work is. The biggest complaint I have about hound hunting as done now where legal, is the radio collars.
Whats wrong with the collars? They do nothing to help catch game they are only there for a safe and hopefully faster recovery of expensive hounds and our bestfreinds, that may have the critter or may have fallen out of the race. In today's times fast recovery of hounds is a must! to many fruitcakes and bunny huggers in the woods that will take your dog and to many busy roadways that they could be killed on.
Post by: Kain on August 07, 2010, 04:46:03 PM
A Guide's Life 6.12.2010 - Last Day on the Stand - Alberta Black Bear Hunt.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg5A8dkJrOI#ws)
Post by: mulehunter on August 07, 2010, 05:16:40 PM
The biggest complaint I have about hound hunting as done now where legal, is the radio collars.
??? I personal Houndman and being DEAF (It mean I cant HEAR A THING)..... Hangfire.... I have a question for u, Please help me improve my skill to find my dogs with out Radio Collars. :dunno:
Mulehunter
Post by: Big w on August 07, 2010, 09:17:22 PM
I don't know man, this thread has really gotten to me. I already shot a bear on tuesday and it was a male. By the way, the person who started this thread sounds like a real idiot.
Post by: Hangfire on August 08, 2010, 03:30:30 AM
I have a lot or respect for the knowledgeable hound hunters. I feel those people and the trappers were the most knowledgeable people out in the woods. Unfortunately the hound hunters had within there ranks, some people with very strong feeling about doing what they wanted when they wanted, regardless of the laws.
As this tread is about, I feel hound hunting cut down on cub and female mortality.
Post by: Hangfire on August 08, 2010, 04:04:56 AM
My feelings against radio collars are partially fueled by the ban on hound hunting. A lot of people who hunt and are serious about it, are down on hound hunting because of the collars and they did not join in the fight against hound hunting. I had a discussion with some people who were very avid deer and elk hunters. They were up in the Wind river (Skamania county) area, scouting when bear season was open. There feelings towards hound hunting after observing the 4 wheel pick ups with a dog on the hood, another on the dog box, all with radio collars and the pick up cab looked like a porkypine with all
the antennas, were very negative.
With the problems with wolves, and I know what it is like to loose dogs, I still feel the hound hunting sport would be better with out radio collars
Post by: ICEMAN on August 08, 2010, 07:26:05 AM
The storys in this thread have really disturbed me. I hunt bears and i have seen 10+ bears in the last two years and have not seen any cubs. After reading those storys, i really don't feel like going bear hunting. If i killed a sow with cubs i could not live with myself. Atleast if you kill a Cow elk with a calf it will join up with the herd or another cow.
I don't know man, this thread has really gotten to me. I already shot a bear on tuesday and it was a male. By the way, the person who started this thread sounds like a real idiot.
Bigw, your first posts makes you sound like you are not really a hunter at all...Maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but you are calling the thread starter an idiot, and you are claiming to have shot a "male" bear just this Tuesday. Most hunters I know who have claimed a BOAR would describe it as such. You say you could not live with yourself if you shot a sow with cubs? Really? 'Cause most hunters I know understand that occassionally bad things happen to all of gods creatures and humans, and sometimes we cannot control everything.... Are you really sure that a calf will be unaffected if you were to kill momma cow? The cycle of life for animals and humans is rather unpredictable. If you kill a doe with your car and a fawn bounds off into the woods can you live with yourself?
I believe the result of this thread is to help hunters avoid abandoning cubs. Hunting inherintely puts other animals from your target group at risk.
Post by: PolarBear on August 08, 2010, 07:40:36 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on August 08, 2010, 07:49:02 AM
Post by: mulehunter on August 08, 2010, 07:57:25 AM
I guess I never answered MULEHUNTERS question. I am sorry your hearing is gone. I have to wear two hearing aids in the woods, I also can not see iron sights any more do to a occlusion in my right eye. If I want to hunt with my muzzle loader I will have to scope it and hunt general season, which I will.
My feelings against radio collars are partially fueled by the ban on hound hunting. A lot of people who hunt and are serious about it, are down on hound hunting because of the collars and they did not join in the fight against hound hunting. I had a discussion with some people who were very avid deer and elk hunters. They were up in the Wind river (Skamania county) area, scouting when bear season was open. There feelings towards hound hunting after observing the 4 wheel pick ups with a dog on the hood, another on the dog box, all with radio collars and the pick up cab looked like a porkypine with all
the antennas, were very negative.
With the problems with wolves, and I know what it is like to loose dogs, I still feel the hound hunting sport would be better with out radio collars
Dont feel sorry if my hear gone. I born that way. God made me who I am... I am good. I love to hounding and VERY THANKFUL that I can hunt myself with out depending other frineds use their Ear but I can Managed myself find my dogs every time I caught Games. Every one is different on View of what they think and way they feel.
Everyone have their different options. There is 400 million people in American cant agree same feeling. Its going to be WORST DEBATE of how they feel everyday about hunting, Wolves, everything. Everyone are going to DISAGREE EVERYTHING period. NONE will ever work in future!
:bash:
Problem is When they need Biologlist help on TOP of it to Managed it. WHO SIDE HE IS ON! >:( NO way it will NEVER make everyone HAPPY!
Mulehunter
Post by: Machias on August 08, 2010, 08:44:18 AM
The storys in this thread have really disturbed me. I hunt bears and i have seen 10+ bears in the last two years and have not seen any cubs. After reading those storys, i really don't feel like going bear hunting. If i killed a sow with cubs i could not live with myself. Atleast if you kill a Cow elk with a calf it will join up with the herd or another cow.
I don't know man, this thread has really gotten to me. I already shot a bear on tuesday and it was a male. By the way, the person who started this thread sounds like a real idiot.
Troll
Post by: h20hunter on August 08, 2010, 09:12:29 AM
Am I going to shoot a bear with cubs simply because I asked the question? Are you so noble as to judge my ethics simply because I asked a question that involves a touchy subject?
Screw you. I have chatted and had a great experience with this whole forum until you came along with your *censored* post.
Thanks so far to everyone else for their insight and opinions.
If this thread has blown up then lock it down. I'm okay with that and screw the troll that posts once and then doesn't even try and contribute.
Sorry, just had to get that out there.
Post by: runamuk on August 08, 2010, 09:42:42 AM
Iread up more on this after a run in with a cub never saw his momma or heard her but after some research based on my estimate of his size he probably had already been kicked to the curb ;) he was awful cute hanging up in that tree watching me (all 70-80lbs of him) but I was really worried about his momma so didn't take pics or anything else. I now have a little better idea of relative size and independence.
I figure everyone has to start somewhere and if we spend enough time digging we can find a reason to never shoot so at some point we have to make the decision to kill....and really only you can determine what you are willing to live with (this isn't just hunting its in life).
happy hunting and good luck out there.
Post by: h20hunter on August 08, 2010, 10:01:36 AM
Thanks for the good luck wish and topic support. Happy hunting and be safe.
H20Hunter
Post by: Kain on August 08, 2010, 10:16:21 AM
Here is a video to watch. I bet 90% of us would have shot the bear in the beginning of this video. Pause the video at 55 seconds and decide what you would do, then watch the rest.
A Guide's Life 6.05.2010 - Day two at Bear Camp.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmKApl_o8Rk#ws)
If you have a bear in front of you that is just not acting normal or little aggressive there might be a good chance there is a cub up a tree. A lot of the videos I have watched show a sow send her cubs up a tree while she goes on to eat. You could end up watching a sow for an hour and decide she is alone with no idea she actually had cubs. The best we can do is try our hardest to do the right thing with the methods THEY give us.
Post by: h20hunter on August 08, 2010, 11:09:29 AM
Post by: Kain on August 08, 2010, 12:01:05 PM
Post by: Big w on August 08, 2010, 12:02:17 PM
Post by: runamuk on August 08, 2010, 01:40:31 PM
I am also on the search for my first bear and on the wetside where the issue of dense cover is always there, and making a mistake on a sow with a cub could happen.....talking about it and putting thought into it is a good thing...admitting you get really excited is also not a bad thing plenty of people do but never admit it for fear of being judged :dunno:.....
I have taken to usually just asking people in private about questions where ethics/opinions can be differing and get really heated when people take things the wrong way or not how maybe intended.
I think its good you are asking plus then Kain finds cool bear videos as examples and such ;) I have learned a lot about a creature that used to absolutely terrify me now they fascinate me.
Of course as yet I am not a real hunter simply a girl ;)
Post by: Bigshooter on August 08, 2010, 03:53:13 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on August 08, 2010, 08:35:11 PM