Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Waterfowl => Topic started by: scottcrb on August 08, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
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so im a second season duck hunter and up to my eyeballs in excitement for duck season. i have aquired a bit of gear last season and in the off season but still need to get some good calls so i can help with the calling this season. does anyone have recommendations on duck and goose calls? short reed vs long on goose calls? acrylic vs plastic? $30 calls vs. $130 calls. and what kind of calls should i have what ducks and geese are good to have ? i hunt both west side and east side and ev everything from divers to mallards teals etc. thanks for the help.
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A lot of questions there and a lot of answers out there. Short reed goose calls are going to be harder to start out with and take quite a bit of practice compared to long reeds but IMO short reeds sound better. Acrylic calls will hold up better than a normal plastic call but are a bit more pricey, but with the price of acrylic comes better quality and better sound. I like Buck Gardner Spit Tech calls because they don't stick and freeze up as easily as others. They are acrylic and only cost around $60. I know there is a lot more info out there and there are some people on here that know a lot more than me but I hope that helps a little bit.
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that does help and thanks a lot for the info. good luck this season.
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Second season? I would get a primos wench duck call to start with. Easy to blow and learn on, then move up to the acrylic, more expensive ones. If you can learn the short reed goose, then you will be ahead of the game. You can pick some less expensive ones at $25-$40 or jump to the high dollar if your looking at burning a few bills.
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I've got a Buck Gardner Double Nasty II and I really like it for a beginning call. I'm still learning but I feel like I can use it fairly well. I also have a Primos Wench, which is nice, but I feel like the DNII is a better call. You're not far from me, so if you feel like listening to what either of them sound like let me know. I plan on moving to a single reed after this upcoming season; I want plenty of time to practice so I'm holding off.
Are you familiar with operating a call? If not, I found this website useful: http://www.callingducks.com (http://www.callingducks.com)
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How good are your calling skills? Are you just starting out or can you bring a few ducks in? A lot of people that are starting out calling ducks do more harm than good by over calling. I took a buddy of mine out last season and we both had a buck gardner call, mine older(8 years or so) and his new(6 months) and mine sounded 10x better. And no amount of tuning made his sound better. I picked up a RNT Micro Hen last November and was pleasantly surprised. My brother always hunted with high dollar calls and I never spent more than 30 buck on mine, thinking that I could buy 4 of mine for each of his. But then I realized that his calls sounded much better than mine and that while I could buy a wider assortment of calls, they never sounded as good. So my recomendation to you is buy what you can afford, but money spent now will pay off in the long run.
As for goose calls, I can't blow them. But if I were you I would call up Bill Saunders and chat with him. He can help you decide what is right for you. My brother has on of his calls and was talking to him at sportsman's one day. Bill said the call didn't sound "quite right", he tried tuning it and it didn't sound any better. Then traded my brother that one for a new one that he tuned right there for him. That is great customer service!
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Scottcrb..............I have been a rep and prostaff for a few different call companies over the years.
I currently prostaff for Buck Gardner calls so if you have any call questions or just calling tips in general feel free to give me a call.
Brad Roberts
360-790-0604
I will be at the Cabelas waterfowl weekend in september at the Buck Gardner / Mossy oak booth so stop by and I will help you in any way I can.
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Scottcrb..............I have been a rep and prostaff for a few different call companies over the years.
I currently prostaff for Buck Gardner calls so if you have any call questions or just calling tips in general feel free to give me a call.
Brad Roberts
360-790-0604
I will be at the Cabelas waterfowl weekend in september at the Buck Gardner / Mossy oak booth so stop by and I will help you in any way I can.
When is the waterfowl weekend? I just got some more cabelas gift cards coming from work so I need to spend them :)
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Scottcrb..............I have been a rep and prostaff for a few different call companies over the years.
I currently prostaff for Buck Gardner calls so if you have any call questions or just calling tips in general feel free to give me a call.
Brad Roberts
360-790-0604
I will be at the Cabelas waterfowl weekend in september at the Buck Gardner / Mossy oak booth so stop by and I will help you in any way I can.
When is the waterfowl weekend? I just got some more cabelas gift cards coming from work so I need to spend them :)
Sept 18-19
Hope to see ya there.
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Hey scottcrb I just bought a Foiles Strait Meat short reed goose call at Cabelas about 2 months ago and it is the easiest call to blow for me so far. His instructional tape is actually very good too. Got it on sale for $100 bucks. The most important thing with short reeds is don"t get impatient and just take it one step at a time. I am by no means a champion goose caller but it's my new favorite call
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Hey scottcrb I just bought a Foiles Strait Meat short reed goose call at Cabelas about 2 months ago and it is the easiest call to blow for me so far. His instructional tape is actually very good too. Got it on sale for $100 bucks. The most important thing with short reeds is don"t get impatient and just take it one step at a time. I am by no means a champion goose caller but it's my new favorite call
The Foiles Strait Meat short reed goose calls are easy to blow. They also sound very good. The Zink calls, are popular, but take more work for someone to learn on.
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You got a freakin steal on that Strait Meat Honker
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i have spent hundreds on duck and goose calls :chuckle: the 2 best calls i use and love are the primose wench and the lohmans goose flute both around 40.00 i have 200.00 calls and i like my cheap ones better :dunno:
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i have spent hundreds on duck and goose calls :chuckle: the 2 best calls i use and love are the primose wench and the lohmans goose flute both around 40.00 i have 200.00 calls and i like my cheap ones better :dunno:
I have several of the $100 + dollar ones sitting on my shelf. I have two boxes full of calls. I am addicted to buying every new one that comes out eventhough I continue to use the same ones. They get pitched into the call box.
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Short reed goose calls are tough to use like the guy said above, but they sound better, If you learn on a short read then you will never have to worry about learning a flute, If you learn on a flute then eventully you will want to learn on a short read, The Zink poly paralyzer is what me and 4 buddys all learnd how to blow a short read on and it comes with a DVD.. Duck calls id get a foils straigh suzy, its about 40 bucks and for the money it sounds great. If you want expensive calls get a Zink money maker.
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Does anyone ever use the Primos *censored* Tonk goose call? I've got one and can't seem to get the right sounds out of it. At this point I assume it's me, because I've got very little practice, but if they are generally known as being crap I might as well wait until after this season and pick up something worthwhile to spend 8 months practicing on. :dunno:
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yeah ducks55 I did get a steal, Cabelas had them on clearance. I think the were a couple of colors that didn't sale. Crispy I have heard some guys blow the *censored* tonk and they sounded pretty good but they were fairly experienced callers too. Just from all of the pain and agony I went through trying to learn to blow a short reed I can tell you to make sure to buy an instructional DVD or CD. I promise it will be the best investment you ever make for your goose calling, far better than an expensive call.
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I picked up the Foiles Straight Meat Honker. They were clearancing the Black Cherry and Neon Green color for $99. Which is a good price. I think they were regular $160??? I grabbed the Black Cherry, even though it looks dark purple in the sun light. It's a good call for the money.
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Yeah I picked up that same color, gonna paint it OD green or something anyway
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the *censored* tonk sucks, not even a goose could make that thing sound like a goose
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the *censored* tonk sucks, not even a goose could make that thing sound like a goose
Wanna bet. I dont own one but I can sure as hell make ANY short reed sound like a goose.
A short reed is a short reed. If you know the fundamentals of running a call and have the abilty to tune a call the *censored* tonk will work just fine.
Is it a call I would buy...............no.
If it were the only call in the truck and I wanted to hunt...................I would use it in a heartbeat.
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the *censored* tonk sucks, not even a goose could make that thing sound like a goose
Wanna bet. I dont own one but I can sure as hell make ANY short reed sound like a goose.
A short reed is a short reed. If you know the fundamentals of running a call and have the abilty to tune a call the *censored* tonk will work just fine.
Is it a call I would buy...............no.
If it were the only call in the truck and I wanted to hunt...................I would use it in a heartbeat.
Gotta agree with Meats, I've picked one up and blown it just fine. While not my choice for a short reed call, it still sounds like a goose.
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wow thanks everyone for the input. im sure i will find a good call and hopefully will slay the ducks and geese this year along with all of you. thanks again and keep the good info flowing if you hear of something new or find something you really like.
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Don't be disappointed if you don't slay them your first few years. Waterfowling takes a lot of practice not only with the calling but decoy placement, concealment, and just flat out patience. It will come with time though
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thanks guys im still keeping my eyes open for some deals on good calls but i think the info on here has helped me narrow my search to a few different brands and specific calls and im confident that i will have a couple good calls by the end of the season. thanks again for all the help.
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Look at JJ Lares Duck and Goose calls! IMHO nothing compares.These calls have a gut system different from any other call.. Most other calls are a J-Frame cork slot variant.. No cork to worry about or mess with..Each call is very easy to tune.. They do not stick etc.. Even his short reed goose calls are designed to be tuned easier then any short reed on the market... :twocents: They can be found used for $80-$100..The fit and finish is perfect... If you don't like it they bring good money on the used market..
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I think those calls are more popular in the California area. Don't know any vendors that sell them in the area. I have only read about those never scene them or heard anyone using them.
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I just bought the buck gardner spitfire and love it :IBCOOL: Its really easy to blow and not really that expensive, I got the diamond wood verson for 30 bucks, they also have an acrilic version for about 70 bucks as well
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I think those calls are more popular in the California area. Don't know any vendors that sell them in the area. I have only read about those never scene them or heard anyone using them.
You would actually be surprised about how many people in WA blow the calls more then a few!! Also you would be surprised about the people who work for other call makers that blow these calls.. They are like nothing else out on the market. You don't need a vendor in WA all you have to do is call the company.. The company has a money back guarantee as long as the call is sent back in saleable condition..These are Hybrids and T-1's! :)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi900.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac203%2Fdrk9988%2FLares.jpg&hash=0c159627955e0f588690367aee4a4dde7d2bbb6e)
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You must rep. this line of calls or work for them I am guessing?? :chuckle:
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I just picked up a zink NOS and I LOVE IT!. Im kinda new at goose calling, especially short reeds, and this call kicks ass for me. hardly any air is needed compared to a couple of the saunders I have tried, and it sounds goosey as all get out. I went from a struggling-yet capable beginner; to pure goose death the moment I started playing with this thing.
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I have a RNT short barrel and its a sweet talker! :) Its not very loud but its great for up close and weary birds. It throws a great feeder and chuckle with the barrel have choked it gets way low and quiet.
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You must rep. this line of calls or work for them I am guessing?? :chuckle:
Actually I neither work or Rep for the company.. :tung:. I just use a product that I know works well and just want to spread the word to fellow hunters..I have bought and sold just about every brand of call..As far as duck calls go Lares is all I own.... A company with zero pro staff but successful should tell you something.. These calls sell themselves..Just like any diehard when they find something cool that works they talk about it or put it in the signature line and become Online Forum Signature Line Prostaff! :chuckle: I'm not there yet!! I have run into people in the field or met people to blow the calls a few have gone on to purchase one!!
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#1 Jeff Foiles Migrators strait meat
#2 RNT Original
#3 Anything else your wasting your money..IMHO
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#1 Jeff Foiles Migrators strait meat
#2 RNT Original
#3 Anything else your wasting your money..IMHO
Post like this make me laugh.
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you can't kill ducks with a call that costs less than $50... :chuckle:
To the original poster: go out and buy a Primos Wench or Haydel's DR-85 and spend as much time listening to real ducks as you did reading these posts. Don't be afraid to call when you're hunting, it's the only way to truly learn.
My lanyard has 3 calls on it. A Haydel's DRS-88, a cheap $20 short reed and a free drake whistle. Total investment, $35.
Take your Foiles and RNT, I'll "waste my money" on more shells to kill ducks.
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you can't kill ducks with a call that costs less than $50... :chuckle:
To the original poster: go out and buy a Primos Wench or Haydel's DR-85 and spend as much time listening to real ducks as you did reading these posts. Don't be afraid to call when you're hunting, it's the only way to truly learn.
My lanyard has 3 calls on it. A Haydel's DRS-88, a cheap $20 short reed and a free drake whistle. Total investment, $35.
Take your Foiles and RNT, I'll "waste my money" on more shells to kill ducks.
Not that you can't kill ducks with a cheap call that sounds like a 5 year old with a kazoo.. Its just easier to get them in close with a call that sounds like a duck. :twocents:
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#1 Jeff Foiles Migrators strait meat
#2 RNT Original
#3 Anything else your wasting your money..IMHO
for a begginner the RNT Original would be a horrible choice, it takes way too much air to blow, my dad has one and I still have trouble blowing that sob.
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Not that you can't kill ducks with a cheap call that sounds like a 5 year old with a kazoo.. Its just easier to get them in close with a call that sounds like a duck. :twocents:
Boy I'd love to spend a morning in a blind next to you...
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http://www.haydels.com/sounds/DRS-88.mp3 (http://www.haydels.com/sounds/DRS-88.mp3)
:chuckle:
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like I said, I'd love to spend a morning hunting next to you...
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You're right, when the birds are in the area fresh from up north there are days when you don't even need a call or decoys. Late season birds that have been hunted hard will test your setup.
Nothing wrong with using a cheap call if saving money is your M.O, but just because you kill ducks with them doesn't mean there aren't vastly better calls out there that make the difference with wary birds. I have watched many birds flare to the call on one side of the marsh and dump right into the guy on the other side who had the better sounding call.
If you want to save money and use a cheap call, good for you. I hope you shoot lots of birds, really! I'd spend the money to have a better set up.
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I've spent plenty of money on calls trying to find one that sounds and works better than what I've got, but I've yet to do it. I've seen and heard plenty of guys who sound great on a $150 duck call but still do match the success that we have. I've spent enough time in the blind to know there is a big difference between knowing how to blow a call and knowing how to call ducks. Most people I talk to in the parking lot after a hunt want to know what call I'm using but won't believe me when i show them...
It's just like saying you have to shoot $20 a box shells to kill ducks...
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Not sure if anyone saw the presentation at the Waterfowl Classic about adding realism to your duck calling, but it was really good. One thing that the presenter did say was that any of the high end calls can sound like a duck - what it boils down to is learning the call(s) you are running and as much practice as you can handle. Listening to real ducks and trying to imitate them as closely as possible is key.
I think any call can be used, but starting out there's probably not a need to spend a ton of money on anything unless you want to. Just practice and work with what you've got :dunno: :twocents:
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G.D. - dont you just wish we could get into an area around some of these clowns. :dunno: :o
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G.D. - dont you just wish we could get into an area around some of these clowns. :dunno: :o
Pretty sure we already do...
how late in the season was this hunt? but then again McNary doesn't get much hunting pressure and you really don't need a good call or decoys to be successful...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi318.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm440%2Fjberry870%2F42410038.jpg&hash=e45b9e036545be694173e0ed849d33e9acda07f6)
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Gotta love McNary
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#1 Jeff Foiles Migrators strait meat
#2 RNT Original
#3 Anything else your wasting your money..IMHO
Post like this make me laugh.
Ive got Buck Gardner calls also... I just like the sound of the others better. :twocents: No need to get bent out of shape about it. When people ask me what my favorite cackler call is, I tell them the Little Hutchie. Im just stating my opinion!!
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#1 Jeff Foiles Migrators strait meat
#2 RNT Original
#3 Anything else your wasting your money..IMHO
Post like this make me laugh.
Ive got Buck Gardner calls also... I just like the sound of the others better. :twocents: No need to get bent out of shape about it. When people ask me what my favorite cackler call is, I tell them the Little Hutchie. Im just stating my opinion!!
Not bent out of shape at all my friend......................just smiling :P
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Not that you can't kill ducks with a cheap call that sounds like a 5 year old with a kazoo.. Its just easier to get them in close with a call that sounds like a duck. :twocents:
Boy I'd love to spend a morning in a blind next to you...
I'll bring the video camera so some of these guys will see the truth.
Sneaky..................it more the indian than the arrow my man.If you able to run a call the price should have very little to do with your success.
Trust me on this. General Dissaray hands guys thier ass on a daily basis in his area on a $15 call
I also would love to spend a morning in hearing distance of you and see what calls perform better.
At the end of the day we can compare piles of birds and price of calls :P
Love them cheap poly calls :chuckle:
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Brad,
Bring that camera anytime, that would be fun!
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Yeah, I guess I better run and get my flash drive to upload pics of limits... Good for you shooting ducks with a call that sounds fake, especially in places that are so easily accessible. :chuckle:
higher-end, higher quality calls have made the difference for me, especially in the late season on public land that gets pounded literally every day it is open. This has been my experience.
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Yeah, I guess I better run and get my flash drive to upload pics of limits... Good for you shooting ducks with a call that sounds fake, especially in places that are so easily accessible. :chuckle:
higher-end, higher quality calls have made the difference for me, especially in the late season on public land that gets pounded literally every day it is open. This has been my experience.
You miss the point.
A acrylic call has only about $10 in material.The price is based on the call makers reputation and salesmanship.
A poly call has about $4 worth of material and is sold at a lower cost by the makers choice.
I own around 200 calls and have the option to hunt any of them.
I hunt acrylics,wood and poly calls on different days and for different locations.To think the price of a call or material its made from controls the quality of the sound.................pure BS.
Do you think Rod Haydel , Rick Dunn or John Stephens sound bad on a poly call............give me a break.
Its the operator not the call.I can blow a wood,poly and acrylic call for you(out of sight of course) and if you can guess the material of each call I run for you I will buy you the call of your choice.
If you cant, you buy me the call of my choice.......................DEAL?
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Yeah, I guess I better run and get my flash drive to upload pics of limits... Good for you shooting ducks with a call that sounds fake, especially in places that are so easily accessible. :chuckle:
higher-end, higher quality calls have made the difference for me, especially in the late season on public land that gets pounded literally every day it is open. This has been my experience.
You miss the point.
A acrylic call has only about $10 in material.The price is based on the call makers reputation and salesmanship.
A poly call has about $4 worth of material and is sold at a lower cost by the makers choice.
I own around 200 calls and have the option to hunt any of them.
I hunt acrylics,wood and poly calls on different days and for different locations.To think the price of a call or material its made from controls the quality of the sound.................pure BS.
Do you think Rod Haydel , Rick Dunn or John Stephens sound bad on a poly call............give me a break.
Its the operator not the call.I can blow a wood,poly and acrylic call for you(out of sight of course) and if you can guess the material of each call I run for you I will buy you the call of your choice.
If you cant, you buy me the call of my choice.......................DEAL?
Its not just the material, its the construction of the call. Its the fact that if the call gets wet, it doesn't cut out or change pitch. I have owned the haydels cheap calls, along with faulks, PS olts and yes, the primos timberwench. They have all failed in the field at some point or another. I happen to think that some of the higher end calls sound better than a cheap haydels.
I agree that there is a huge operator element to the equation, and a championship caller can sound decent on a cheap call. Thus, people can post pictures of mcnary limits shot with cheap calls. In MY opinion, the lares calls I have heard sound better than their competitors. I have seen a lot of ducks die because of them. It just so happens that they are expensive! I will pay the money to have what I deem to be a quality call. You don't have to, but I will. If I felt I could buy something of that quality for 19 dollars, believe me I would!
If you're going to drive all the way to eastern washington to hunt, like a lot of us wetsiders do, you might as well go with the best gear you can afford. Good camo, Good decoys, and Good calling are all important pieces of the puzzle behind good location. If spending a little extra is going to do it for me, then I'm going to do it because it's going to make the experience that much more fun and successful.
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On every forum when the question is asked about what call to buy this always comes up!! So it should always have a two part answer..The high end call thats your favorite and the cheapy poly thats your favorite... For years and years I blew a Primos Yo Sista killed plenty of ducks.I think one of the better poly calls out is the Zink Power Hen..I would rather pay $200 for a Lares now then receive a truck full of free Buck Gardner,Haydels,Primos, Zink etc..For many reasons then just sound alone..For the guys with the $15 calls what are your high end favorites?
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Meats - You should post up three clips of poly, acrylic and wood just for fun! Can't promise you a duck call, but that would be fun to see how sharp peoples ears are..
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Well it's a good thing I'm not trying to call Sneaky into my decoys!!! Dude must hear in perfect pitch and know that every duck sounds exactly the same! I'm sure I sound nothing like a duck, but you can tell that ducks that end up in my freezer in the next 3-1/2 months.
Sneaky, let me know when you head east and maybe I'll get a chance to be more convincing. I don't need your approval to know that i'm pretty good at getting ducks(from opening day to the end of January) in close enough to kill. Meats has never heard me blow a duck call, but he knows my success rates on hard hunted public ground.
Heck, I'd even invite you over for a hunt if you're willing... in the blind next to me. ;)
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I've been blowing cheap calls ever since I started duck hunting about 12 years ago. I can't even count the number of time's of turned ducks with a primos wench or a dr-85. I just last week bought an Echo Meat Hanger in poly. It sounds great, and I think it will allow me to make sounds I can't quite do with a wench or another cheap poly call. But, you can guarantee my wench, and my duck picker, and a dr-85 will always be on my lanyard along with a drake whistle of course. I always buy the best gear I can afford. Simms waders, g-loomis rods, quality reels, etc when it comes to fishing. I just this year bought my SX3 but my nova kills ducks just fine.
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Check out JJ Lares profenssional duck calls :twocents:
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Check out JJ Lares profenssional duck calls :twocents:
Are they better than his amature calls :P
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Check out JJ Lares profenssional duck calls :twocents:
Are they better than his amature calls :P
That one you had must have been an amateur one! :P
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One thing to remember everyone blows the call differently, hence shape of mouth. They all try to make the same sounds, but due to design features there are many options for individuals. A RNT single read might work like magic for one guy and not as well or to the next. Then you have a diverse level of calling experience. Even a pro will grab a cheap or an expensive one and tune it themselves to the way they like. I pull all my calls apart and tune them to the way I like. If you know how to work a duck call you can make most sound good, some just take a little modifying or tuning. A good starter call for the price is a primos timber wench. I have called in many birds with those. I also collect many calls and have several boxes of calls. The ticket is learning how to call to the ducks and watching how they respond to your calling. Not necessarily trying to become a competition caller. It only seems that in the last 10 years you had such a variety. Back in the day good callers seemed to have a custom call made from them or purchased Iverson type calls. Then we started buying Sean Mann World Championship Goose Flute and now it has turned into big money due to the tv shows and marketing.
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so i think ive decided what calls i want o get and try and thanks again for all the amazing info and help. does anyone have an instructional cd they are selling or one to recommend or even a copy to listen to in my truck while im driving around scouting for spots to hunt?
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A good DVD if you want to watch for goose calling is Honker Talk by Shawn Stahl. It's a good one. There are some good Zink ones that you can listen to in your rig.
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Check out JJ Lares professional duck calls :twocents:
Are they better than his amature calls :P
That one you had must have been an amateur one! :P
yea I think the jj lares duck call helped me alot but they do cost a bit more. They don't stivk and sound the same after being reassymbled
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Please buy me one of those JJ Lares calls... if I get it to stick I won't pay you back.. if it doesn't stick I'll pay you double. I can guarantee they will stick, freeze and do all the other crappy things all the great calls out there do...
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Please buy me one of those JJ Lares calls... if I get it to stick I won't pay you back.. if it doesn't stick I'll pay you double. I can guarantee they will stick, freeze and do all the other crappy things all the great calls out there do...
The call will eject spit so it doesn't load up like other calls. But if you have a mouth full of chew,coffee,donut and carmel well duh!! There are some great calls out there that aren't Lares.. I really like the C&S custom Preacher, Zink Xr-2,Zink PH-1,RNT Short Barrel,RNT MicroHen and the Echo Timber..BUT it always seemed like I only liked the way they sounded with a really fresh cork.A few days would go by then I would pull the call out and it just wasn't the same. I got over the cork call thing and I switched to all corkless calls. No cork changing in a Lares.. So there is one crappy thing that these great calls wont do...No change in pitch from dry cork!
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Please buy me one of those JJ Lares calls... if I get it to stick I won't pay you back.. if it doesn't stick I'll pay you double. I can guarantee they will stick, freeze and do all the other crappy things all the great calls out there do...
The call will eject spit so it doesn't load up like other calls. But if you have a mouth full of chew,coffee,donut and carmel well duh!! There are some great calls out there that aren't Lares.. I really like the C&S custom Preacher, Zink Xr-2,Zink PH-1,RNT Short Barrel,RNT MicroHen and the Echo Timber..BUT it always seemed like I only liked the way they sounded with a really fresh cork.A few days would go by then I would pull the call out and it just wasn't the same. I got over the cork call thing and I switched to all corkless calls. No cork changing in a Lares.. So there is one crappy thing that these great calls wont do...No change in pitch from dry cork!
I'm not up for buyng anyone a call but must say that my Lares has served me well for over a decade now and i have had thoughts of buying a zink to replace it but it still works good. and yes like any fine tuned instrument you can screw it up through negligence.