Post by: ML_Hunter on September 14, 2010, 10:07:04 PM
director@dfw.wa.gov, commission@dfw.wa.gov, huntered@dfw.wa.gov
Thank you,
James
------------------
Director Phil Anderson and WDFW officials,
I am an active hunter and fisherman and have been enjoying Washington's outdoor opportunities since 1994 when I moved to this state. Since my children and lovely wife have also started enjoying the wildlife and spend countless hours in the field. My largest passion for the outdoors includes hunting and my preferred method of hunting is with a muzzle loader for all big game including deer, elk, bear and if I'm lucky enough cougar.
With the last big set of regulation changes, Washington started to finally move into the modern era with muzzle loader hunting and allowed the uses of any bullet material, however left out the upgrade of in-line muzzle loaders with sealed actions, the uses of 209 primers and the use of scopes.
Honestly, my biggest argument for sealed action muzzleloaders is that with Washington's currently law makes it extremely difficult to find decent rifles to use. I do fairly well keeping my charge dry and have only really have one miss-fire in the field that was caused to my primer/powder getting wet. However if Washington is trying to give every opportunity for hunters to successfully harvest animals, then a sealed action is the way to go.
As for 209 primers, they give off much more heat and reliability in setting off the charge in the barrel. But I can live with sticking to the percussion or musket cap system, 209 primers, in my personal opinion will not make a huge difference.
Where I am most annoyed with Washington's Department of Fish and Wildlife is with the use of scopes! The reason for scopes is transparent: to see what you are shooting at. Scopes afford better shot placement, quicker kills, better game recovery, and greater safety. It has always been that way. For those with less than perfect vision, the majority of hunters across the country—optics are an even more vital component of ethical, sage hunting practices. A scope is the last and best chance to confirm your target, what is behind it, and what resides to the left, right, and in front of it. Collateral damage and friendly fire have no place in the hunting woods.
There can be no glory in a gut shot or lost animal, estimated to be over a million and a half deer every year. Naturally, no scope improves trajectory nor makes a gun more accurate. It simply allows better, more precise use of the tools that we have. A scope in no way encourages people to shoot beyond their comfort zone; the converse is true. Those with the propensity to throw "Hail Mary’s" have always done so, regardless of equipment. Thoughtful use of a scope stops the wasting of a button buck with a doe tag, thoughtful use of a scope stops a shot when there is no backstop—or when another animal is directly behind your quarry.
This is not to suggest than hunting be restricted to “scope-only,” or that anyone be forced to hunt with a scope—anymore than mandatory use of rangefinders or even binoculars would be reasonable. We don’t need more gun laws, we need less. We don’t need more bureaucracy, we need less.
Whether handgun, rifled shotgun, or muzzleloader—those who can more accurately place a bullet with a scope should be allowed to do so. To not encourage effective, efficient, humane, safe hunting is a tortured path that defies logic and the delicate sensibilities of those possessing common sense. To not take a game animal as efficiently as possible shows no respect for that animal.
Allowing scope use is just as sensible as a regular visit to the eye doctor, and enhancing your vision when possible when operating equipment. It makes as much, if not more sense when that equipment is a firearm.
Thank you for reading this letter and taking the time to consider the proposal of perhaps updating regulations for the general muzzle loader seasons
Thank you,
Post by: AWS on September 14, 2010, 11:47:42 PM
Learn to hunt, the use of wind and terrain, study the habits of your quarry, spend time all yearat the range and learn the limitations of your equipment, if you can't keep your hits in the kill zone of your game a beyond 50yards don't shoot till you get within 45yards. The original intent of muzzle loader season was to experience hunting as our fore fathers did with the limitations of the equipment of their time. It makes me sad the way muzzle loading seasons have been dumbed down because it is too difficult to learn to use a flintlock or percussion and round balls or bare lead bullets in a traditional muzzleloader.
If you want centerfire primers, jacketted bullets and scopes it's called Modern Rifle Season.
One day someone is going say " It looks like a modern rifle, it shoots like a modern rifle it has the same bullets as a modern rifle, Why do we have a special season for them? "
AWS
Post by: winshooter88 on September 15, 2010, 01:55:54 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 15, 2010, 05:32:47 AM
Post by: rasbo on September 15, 2010, 05:40:12 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on September 15, 2010, 05:44:20 AM
I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid arguement. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enought to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun.
Post by: nontypical176 on September 15, 2010, 06:19:16 AM
Weapon improvements are happening for all. I think the real reason there even became a seperate muzzle loader season is just a new way to control the hunters. More money for the DFW, and us hunters know there is one thing they are good at and thats collecting our money.
Post by: Gutpile on September 15, 2010, 06:28:09 AM
Quote
I think the real reason there even became a seperate muzzle loader season is just a new way to control the hunters.
Exactly. Less hunters in the feild giving the traditional guys a better hunt. Sounds good to me.
Sounds like some of you want it all. No hunters in the field (muzzle loader season) but the best muzzleloaders available. Is Shockey really a muzzleloader hunter? I think not. May as well be using a Ruger #1 in my opinion.
I plan on muzzleloader hunting for elk eventually and I sure hope they don't change the laws and make them more liberal like the eastern and midwestern states. Then it'll be a zoo just like the modern season.
Post by: bridgeman on September 15, 2010, 06:51:52 AM
Post by: yelp on September 15, 2010, 07:06:19 AM
Post by: Whitelightning on September 15, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
I'm with keeping ML rules current as they are. You can always mount a scope on a closed breach and hunt Modern Firearm if you like the convenience of a scope on a ML...
I agree with if you want to scope and use Modern primers than you should use the rifle during modern season. I have by choice used my M/L during Modern season, don't like Modern season but I have a couple times.
For those of you that cant get past the Inline you need to do some research. The Inline was patented by Polley and others in the early 1800's. Any body know when that Modern item you put on the nipple was invented? Inline action does NOT make a rifle shoot any faster farther or better than a flintlock or sidelock. That other modern thing called rifling made some of that possible. :twocents:
Post by: Skillet on September 15, 2010, 07:16:55 AM
Post by: AWS on September 15, 2010, 07:20:02 AM
aws
Post by: bobcat on September 15, 2010, 07:29:36 AM
Post by: robodad on September 15, 2010, 07:39:07 AM
Modern conviences only make a hunter that much more lazy, and the shot placement arguement is poor at best, its all about learning how to adapt to the limitations of your equipment like mentioned earlier and become more efficient as a hunter in practice !!
It would be like asking for crossbows to be legal in archery season :twocents:
Post by: baldopepper on September 15, 2010, 08:37:51 AM
Post by: jstone on September 15, 2010, 09:01:14 AM
Post by: ThePascoKid on September 15, 2010, 10:08:46 AM
Post by: Curly on September 15, 2010, 10:36:39 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 15, 2010, 10:38:48 AM
:dunno:
Post by: bobcat on September 15, 2010, 10:43:47 AM
I do have to agree with the arguement that it's getting harder to find inlines that are legal in Washington as far as the breech is concerned. I ML hunt and I'd love to have a scope, but I would much rather keep the season as primitive as it is now and have less people in the field. If they allow scopes we damn sure won't have the woods to ourselves anymore.
If they were to allow scopes for muzzleloader season, I would quit hunting with a muzzleloader.
And it's true there aren't a lot of choices when it comes to currently in production, Washington legal, inline muzzleloaders. There are three that I know of, one by T/C, one made by CVA, and one made by Traditions. BUT, there are also several sidelock muzzleloaders available. Thompsen/Center has the Hawken, Lyman has the Deerstalker and Great Plains, Cabelas also sells one called the Hawken, Traditions has at least one, and I'm sure there are a few more. So there are plenty of legal muzzleloaders available and I don't see that as a legitimate reason for eliminating the restrictions we currently have.
Post by: BlackRidge on September 15, 2010, 10:50:35 AM
The traditional aspect is what makes archery/ML enjoyable for most folk
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on September 15, 2010, 12:10:21 PM
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on September 15, 2010, 12:13:08 PM
So they let you hunt when you can actually get close and personal top take that animal ethically and responcibly to minimise wounding animals. Most animals that are wounded and not found are due to the hunter going beyond his or her capibilities. Imagine the success rate if the fact that ML's had no miss haps. Like wet powder, poor ignition, scopes for longer distances, ect.
There is a reason the rifle season goes after the rut. Just like a rifle rut tag, it would be a devestating success rate if there were no variables.
Post by: bobcat on September 15, 2010, 12:19:30 PM
Quote
ML goes from peak to end or so
You really think so? In my experience the muzzleloader season starts right at the end of the rut. But I maybe haven't hunted enough different areas and gotten into enough elk to really say for sure.
Post by: woodswalker on September 15, 2010, 12:30:15 PM
I am not a muzzle hunter.
I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid arguement. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enought to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun.
:yeah:
Post by: Skillet on September 15, 2010, 12:59:41 PM
I've sent an email stating my support of the existing ML rules in WA to the addresses provided by ML_HUNTER, with the intent to minimize the impact of his lobbying. PM me for the body of the email, if you wish to send it as I did. Or just send your own...
Post by: CanvasGear on September 15, 2010, 01:57:43 PM
CG
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on September 15, 2010, 02:23:01 PM
wildman, I agree with whay you're saying but not sure I agree with this:QuoteML goes from peak to end or so
You really think so? In my experience the muzzleloader season starts right at the end of the rut. But I maybe haven't hunted enough different areas and gotten into enough elk to really say for sure.
Ya, it does start more at the end. But different areas can have a different timing. Its a bad statement but just trying to show another reason. Kinda why I put "or so" in there. But there definately easier to get on during ML.
Post by: Blsum on September 15, 2010, 02:36:19 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't they way you had intended for this thread to go. I have found in the few years I've been hunting with my muzzle loader that the people who choose to shoot a muzzle loader are very passionate about their sport. But I have to admit that I agree with everyone else. I choose to use a muzzle loader for the challenge, and I'm glad I changed over. I personally don't want to see scopes allowed on muzzle loaders. For that matter I was surprised that wdfw made it legal for us to use copper jacketed bullets. We should be thankful for what we do have to use. Like fiber optic sights, and in-line's.
Post by: bridgeman on September 15, 2010, 07:45:20 PM
If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.
:yeah:
Post by: washelkhntr on September 15, 2010, 07:49:26 PM
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
Not to be rude but isnt your letter to WDFW mostly a copy and paste of Randy Wakemans article?
CG
Its a modified copy of past of an article I had read. Is it Randy Wakemans? I deleted a few thing I did not agree with...thought I added that I was looking for a 1x/1.5x scope, not a high powered 14x scope or anything like that. But yea, I thought It was a good argument and have been trying to argue for something similar, the article had a very good argument laid out.
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:06:25 PM
I'll hit more of these point by point but wanted to clarify what I was looking for as to a scope, not nessarly a magnified scope, just a set of adjustable cross hairs.
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:21:03 PM
I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid argument. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enough to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun.
Iceman, I would assume your a rifle hunter for you mentioned raising your barrel. I use my optics ALOT with my binos just about always in hand or strapped to my chest. With modern all of you guys are wearing orange, most muzzleloader hunters do not. In modern you may see an animal, confirm its a legal animal, then raise your rifle, as your looking at the animal your about to shoot at you may see a spot of orange cross your scope behind your target and you can pull off target and either wait or get another angle on the shot. When a muzzleloader hunter, or even an archery hunter comes up on an animal, one may not see the movement behind target prior to pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.
Case in point, I'm not at all concerned about looking before raising your sights, i'm thinking about what happens when your sights are up and your getting ready to pull the trigger.
& PS, I corrected your spelling errors ;)
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:25:09 PM
This is probably not the way ML_Hunter was wanting this thread to go.
:dunno:
:rolleyes: not at all lol. The only thing that is annoying me is that everyone is open to there own opinion, it can be listened to, ignored, agreed with, argued, or attacked. Seems like everyone here is going the attack method. I guess I should quit being so nice to everyone else and attack opinions I don't agree with as well.
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:29:07 PM
If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.
I JUST HAVE TWO WORD FOR YOU, BUT THERE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!!
Post by: yelp on September 17, 2010, 07:39:10 PM
This is a topic that I feel strongly about, as for 209 primers, and muzzle loaders with a sealed breach...they would be nice, but I can go either way about it. Scopes on the other hand...Even a 1.5 power scope would be a huge enhancement and cut down on the number of gut shot animals and make hunting just that much safer. I'm a huge advocate for the allowance of scopes on muzzle loaders and I hope you will all take the time to read my message and hopefully join me in trying to make a change. You can all use my message below as a template, make changes to fit your views, or write your own letter. Below are a few e-mail address that you can send this to, and send this to anyone else you feel necessary including friends who hunt and would like to see a change.
director@dfw.wa.gov, commission@dfw.wa.gov, huntered@dfw.wa.gov
Thank you,
James
------------------
Director Phil Anderson and WDFW officials,
I am an active hunter and fisherman and have been enjoying Washington's outdoor opportunities since 1994 when I moved to this state. Since my children and lovely wife have also started enjoying the wildlife and spend countless hours in the field. My largest passion for the outdoors includes hunting and my preferred method of hunting is with a muzzle loader for all big game including deer, elk, bear and if I'm lucky enough cougar.
With the last big set of regulation changes, Washington started to finally move into the modern era with muzzle loader hunting and allowed the uses of any bullet material, however left out the upgrade of in-line muzzle loaders with sealed actions, the uses of 209 primers and the use of scopes.
Honestly, my biggest argument for sealed action muzzleloaders is that with Washington's currently law makes it extremely difficult to find decent rifles to use. I do fairly well keeping my charge dry and have only really have one miss-fire in the field that was caused to my primer/powder getting wet. However if Washington is trying to give every opportunity for hunters to successfully harvest animals, then a sealed action is the way to go.
As for 209 primers, they give off much more heat and reliability in setting off the charge in the barrel. But I can live with sticking to the percussion or musket cap system, 209 primers, in my personal opinion will not make a huge difference.
Where I am most annoyed with Washington's Department of Fish and Wildlife is with the use of scopes! The reason for scopes is transparent: to see what you are shooting at. Scopes afford better shot placement, quicker kills, better game recovery, and greater safety. It has always been that way. For those with less than perfect vision, the majority of hunters across the country—optics are an even more vital component of ethical, sage hunting practices. A scope is the last and best chance to confirm your target, what is behind it, and what resides to the left, right, and in front of it. Collateral damage and friendly fire have no place in the hunting woods.
There can be no glory in a gut shot or lost animal, estimated to be over a million and a half deer every year. Naturally, no scope improves trajectory nor makes a gun more accurate. It simply allows better, more precise use of the tools that we have. A scope in no way encourages people to shoot beyond their comfort zone; the converse is true. Those with the propensity to throw "Hail Mary’s" have always done so, regardless of equipment. Thoughtful use of a scope stops the wasting of a button buck with a doe tag, thoughtful use of a scope stops a shot when there is no backstop—or when another animal is directly behind your quarry.
This is not to suggest than hunting be restricted to “scope-only,” or that anyone be forced to hunt with a scope—anymore than mandatory use of rangefinders or even binoculars would be reasonable. We don’t need more gun laws, we need less. We don’t need more bureaucracy, we need less.
Whether handgun, rifled shotgun, or muzzleloader—those who can more accurately place a bullet with a scope should be allowed to do so. To not encourage effective, efficient, humane, safe hunting is a tortured path that defies logic and the delicate sensibilities of those possessing common sense. To not take a game animal as efficiently as possible shows no respect for that animal.
Allowing scope use is just as sensible as a regular visit to the eye doctor, and enhancing your vision when possible when operating equipment. It makes as much, if not more sense when that equipment is a firearm.
Thank you for reading this letter and taking the time to consider the proposal of perhaps updating regulations for the general muzzle loader seasons
Thank you,
ML Hunter...you have the right to speak for yourself..you felt strong enough about your argument to write a letter. Realize that there are many people on here that like the primitive seasons and weapons. You ask in your statement "I hope you will all take the time to read my message and hopefully join me in trying to make a change". Well some of us don't want change we like it how it is. You have the right to represent yourself. But you don't represent me..I like the challenge with open sights. :twocents:
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
If we go to scopes and all the more updated materials on muzzys, we might as well stop and have a modern hunt. They will almost reach out to a couple hundred yards. And yes there are lots of people that will push the envelope just like archery. Maybe there should be a more primitive season?? don't know the more modern things get the more people will take advantage.
With any season you will see people push the envelope, in modern rifle with people take 500yds shots and never practiced anything past 100, archery hunters shooting 80 yds, and muzzleloader hunters shooting at 170 yds with open sights. Yes, all of these shots can be accomplished, with practice, and 100 percent confidence in the shot and shot placement with the properly presented shot. Would I take any of thses shots...No, Would I take a shot past 100 yds with my ML...No, would I do so even with a scope (1x or 1.5x scope)...No.
What I'm trying to say is that the same people who will push the envelope, are the same people who are currently pushing the envelope.
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 07:46:39 PM
You have the right to represent yourself. But you don't represent me..I like the challenge with open sights.
I'm not trying to represent anyone who dose not want to be represented. The only view I represented was my own, and if anyone agreed, they could do so, and anyone who disagreed could also do so. When I sent the letter, my name on was at the bottom of it, not the national muzzleloaders association, or hunting washington forum. Just my name and it alone.
Post by: bobcat on September 17, 2010, 08:28:48 PM
& PS, I corrected your spelling errors ;)
I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid agreement. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enough to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun.
Why did you change "arguement" to "agreement?" :dunno: ;)
Post by: ML_Hunter on September 17, 2010, 11:36:52 PM
Post by: Curly on September 18, 2010, 06:49:37 AM
If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.
I JUST HAVE TWO WORD FOR YOU, BUT THERE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!!
Wow, talk about attack............ :o You're the one here without any brain power.......maybe you should move to the midwest or somewhere where they will let you hunt with your scoped Encore........
Post by: Curly on September 18, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.
I JUST HAVE TWOWORDWORDS FOR YOU, BUTTHERETHEY'RE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!!
And when you go and yell at someone and call them an idiot, you should use correct grammar, it only makes you look like the moron that you obviously are when you don't use correct English. (You know, since you thought you'd be "smart" and try to correct ICEMAN's spelling and point it out.)
OK, back to the topic at hand. So you want the features of a modern rifle, and the seasons of a primitive weapon? Do you know how hard it would be to enforce a law saying scoped ML with 1.5X or less power are legal? Anyway, I was totally serious and sincere in my original statement of saying that you should simply hunt during modern rifle season if you want to use a scope. WDFW just changed the ML requirements a couple years ago to allow ML to be used during modern rifle seasons with scopes and 209 primers, so there should be no reason for you not to do that.
Actually, the modern firearm deer seasons are longer and occur at a better time than ML seasons, so you probably would have better success hunting deer during modern firearm with you ML......and if you enjoy hunting with your ML so much, why not hunt during modern? ??? The only difference is the number of people out in the woods, but you should be able to get away from the crowds if you try hard enough.
You're a young enough guy too, that you shouldn't have a problem seeing with open sights. It's old guys like me that should be begging for scoped ML.......but if my eyes get so bad that I can't hunt with open sights, I'll just hunt modern firearm.
Have you looked into using peep sights?
BTW, WDFW isn't the only wildlife dept in the west that doesn't allow scoped ML. I know that ID and OR both have more restrictive rules regarding ML.......and I bet that Montana, WY, NV, UT, CO, NM, and CA all have similar rules.......but I'm not sure on those states.
Post by: BlackRidge on September 18, 2010, 08:12:47 AM
This is probably not the way ML_Hunter was wanting this thread to go.
:dunno:
:rolleyes: not at all lol. The only thing that is annoying me is that everyone is open to there own opinion, it can be listened to, ignored, agreed with, argued, or attacked. Seems like everyone here is going the attack method. I guess I should quit being so nice to everyone else and attack opinions I don't agree with as well.
I wouldnt say everyones attacking you or your opinion, just that it differs from their own and changes in one area would likely cause changes elsewhere. Ultimately, even though its about ML's, it effects us all
:twocents:
Post by: yelp on September 18, 2010, 09:06:12 AM
This is probably not the way ML_Hunter was wanting this thread to go.
:dunno:
:rolleyes: not at all lol. The only thing that is annoying me is that everyone is open to there own opinion, it can be listened to, ignored, agreed with, argued, or attacked. Seems like everyone here is going the attack method. I guess I should quit being so nice to everyone else and attack opinions I don't agree with as well.
I wouldnt say everyones attacking you or your opinion, just that it differs from their own and changes in one area would likely cause changes elsewhere. Ultimately, even though its about ML's, it effects us all
:twocents:
Exactly..well said!
Post by: yelp on September 18, 2010, 09:12:31 AM
You have the right to represent yourself. But you don't represent me..I like the challenge with open sights.
I'm not trying to represent anyone who dose not want to be represented. The only view I represented was my own, and if anyone agreed, they could do so, and anyone who disagreed could also do so. When I sent the letter, my name on was at the bottom of it, not the national muzzleloaders association, or hunting washington forum. Just my name and it alone.
Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't trying to offend you. I was just making the point that just because you feel strongly about an issue some may not feel the same way.
Post by: WestPlains_Drifter on September 18, 2010, 12:29:47 PM
..Even a 1.5 power scope would be a huge enhancement and cut down on the number of gut shot animals and make hunting just that much safer. I'm a huge advocate for the allowance of scopes on muzzle loaders and I hope you will all take the time to read my message and hopefully join me in trying to make a change...
I would have probably agreed with you 10 years ago, when I first picked up the ol smokepole I sucked at shooting, plain and simple. It took missing a 50yd shot to realize that. After that I took it upon myself to learn and practice how to accurately and safely shoot iron sights, long story short - now I can. The initial problem wasn't the gun, or lack of scope - it was me. I fixed the problem. Scopes will not.
I am not getting into the argument about yes/no for scopes. I only wish to address your thoughts that scopes will cut down on bad shots. The are two problems with that statement.
1. Poor marksman can look through a scope just as easy as they used iron sights - you didn't remove the problem.
2. Scopes will empower individuals with a sense of security. Those comfortable with 125yd shots with iron sights might stretch that out to 225-325yds, possibly overextending the reach of the rifle. - so here you actually made the problem worse.
Post by: spottedhand on September 19, 2010, 08:25:22 AM
Post by: CanvasGear on September 20, 2010, 09:36:09 AM
CG
Post by: jackelope on September 20, 2010, 01:41:33 PM
I watch alolt these guys on TV take advantage of the muzzle seasons in the midwest and east. The problem is the only difference from modern is they load their sealed waterproof primed scoped rifle like a muzzle.
Most of those places are firearms restricted which is why they are using muzzleloaders.
Post by: Curly on September 20, 2010, 02:05:01 PM
If I wanted to change ML I'd outlaw inlines during ML altogether. Its about the hunt, the method is what makes each special. I have a TC Hawken, its more like bowhunting with a bang. I have a Compound that I really enjoy alot. Recently purchased a recurve that is different than all of the above. I have a BP Express ML that is really just a modern with smoke. Each offers a different type of hunt, I can pick and choose depending on what type of hunting Ive got the itch for. There are alot of laws I dont like in WA but the ML laws are pretty good.
CG
Well said. The rules are pretty good in this state now regarding ML equipment. They aren't too restrictive (like Flintlock only) or too lenient (like allowing 209 primers and/or scopes).......they came up with a happy medium I think.
Inlines with the restrictions in place in this state don't really give much of an advantage (if any) over a sidelock. There may be a slight advantage with the inline being able to ignite the charge of powder over the sidelock, but that is about the only advantage I can see. I think I will be going back to using my sidelock (T/C Renegade) by late deer season this year or at least by next year. It is just so much more simple than an inline.
Post by: CP on September 20, 2010, 02:11:54 PM