Scoped Muzzleloaders

[bridgeman]

If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.

 

[washelkhntr]

 

[ML_Hunter]

Not to be rude but isnt your letter to WDFW mostly a copy and paste of Randy Wakemans article?

CG

Its a modified copy of past of an article I had read.  Is it Randy Wakemans?  I deleted a few thing I did not agree with...thought I added that I was looking for a 1x/1.5x scope, not a high powered 14x scope or anything like that.  But yea, I thought It was a good argument and have been trying to argue for something similar, the article had a very good argument laid out.

[ML_Hunter]

I guess I did not put this in there.  I'm not looking for high powered scopes, that 3-9 stuff no, What I would like to see is an allowance of 1x or 1.5x magnification.  Nothing to change what you would see without a scope (1.5 is only for I'm not sure if a 1x scope is on the market?) but just have a set of cross hairs in stead of a set of sights.  My comfort range with a ML is about 100 yds with a rest and 60 without a rest.  As for 209, I don't care one way or the other and although I may shoot in rendezvous with musket caps, I hunt with #11's, so clearly there i'm not taking advantage of what could be cocered an upgrade.  The allowance of any type of in-line, again really would not care...only I would prefer to use my Encore with the ML barrel. 

I'll hit more of these point by point but wanted to clarify what I was looking for as to a scope, not nessarly a magnified scope, just a set of adjustable cross hairs.

[ML_Hunter]

I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid argument. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enough to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun.  

Iceman, I would assume your a rifle hunter for you mentioned raising your barrel.  I use my optics ALOT with my binos just about always in hand or strapped to my chest.  With modern all of you guys are wearing orange, most muzzleloader hunters do not.  In modern you may see an animal, confirm its a legal animal, then raise your rifle, as your looking at the animal your about to shoot at you may see a spot of orange cross your scope behind your target and you can pull off target and either wait or get another angle on the shot.  When a muzzleloader hunter, or even an archery hunter comes up on an animal, one may not see the movement behind target prior to pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.

Case in point, I'm not at all concerned about looking before raising your sights, i'm thinking about what happens when your sights are up and your getting ready to pull the trigger.

& PS, I corrected your spelling errors

[ML_Hunter]

This is probably not the way ML_Hunter was wanting this thread to go.
 

  not at all lol.  The only thing that is annoying me is that everyone is open to there own opinion, it can be listened to, ignored, agreed with, argued, or attacked.  Seems like everyone here is going the attack method.  I guess I should quit being so nice to everyone else and attack opinions I don't agree with as well.

[ML_Hunter]

If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.

I JUST HAVE TWO WORD FOR YOU, BUT THERE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!! 

[yelp]

This is a topic that I feel strongly about, as for 209 primers, and muzzle loaders with a sealed breach...they would be nice, but I can go either way about it.  Scopes on the other hand...Even a 1.5 power scope would be a huge enhancement and cut down on the number of gut shot animals and make hunting just that much safer.  I'm a huge advocate for the allowance of scopes on muzzle loaders and I hope you will all take the time to read my message and hopefully join me in trying to make a change.  You can all use my message below as a template, make changes to fit your views, or write your own letter.  Below are a few e-mail address that you can send this to, and send this to anyone else you feel necessary including friends who hunt and would like to see a change.

director@dfw.wa.gov, commission@dfw.wa.gov, huntered@dfw.wa.gov

Thank you,
James
------------------
Director Phil Anderson and WDFW officials,
 
I am an active hunter and fisherman and have been enjoying Washington's outdoor opportunities since 1994 when I moved to this state.  Since my children and lovely wife have also started enjoying the wildlife and spend countless hours in the field.  My largest passion for the outdoors includes hunting and my preferred method of hunting is with a muzzle loader for all big game including deer, elk, bear and if I'm lucky enough cougar. 
 
With the last big set of regulation changes, Washington started to finally move into the modern era with muzzle loader hunting and allowed the uses of any bullet material, however left out the upgrade of in-line muzzle loaders with sealed actions, the uses of 209 primers and the use of scopes. 
 
Honestly, my biggest argument for sealed action muzzleloaders is that with Washington's currently law makes it extremely difficult to find decent rifles to use.  I do fairly well keeping my charge dry and have only really have one miss-fire in the field that was caused to my primer/powder getting wet.  However if Washington is trying to give every opportunity for hunters to successfully harvest animals, then a sealed action is the way to go.
 
As for 209 primers, they give off much more heat and reliability in setting off the charge in the barrel.  But I can live with sticking to the percussion or musket cap system, 209 primers, in my personal opinion will not make a huge difference.
 
Where I am most annoyed with Washington's Department of Fish and Wildlife is with the use of scopes!  The reason for scopes is transparent: to see what you are shooting at. Scopes afford better shot placement, quicker kills, better game recovery, and greater safety. It has always been that way. For those with less than perfect vision, the majority of hunters across the country—optics are an even more vital component of ethical, sage hunting practices. A scope is the last and best chance to confirm your target, what is behind it, and what resides to the left, right, and in front of it. Collateral damage and friendly fire have no place in the hunting woods.
 

There can be no glory in a gut shot or lost animal, estimated to be over a million and a half deer every year. Naturally, no scope improves trajectory nor makes a gun more accurate. It simply allows better, more precise use of the tools that we have. A scope in no way encourages people to shoot beyond their comfort zone; the converse is true. Those with the propensity to throw "Hail Mary’s" have always done so, regardless of equipment. Thoughtful use of a scope stops the wasting of a button buck with a doe tag, thoughtful use of a scope stops a shot when there is no backstop—or when another animal is directly behind your quarry.
 

This is not to suggest than hunting be restricted to “scope-only,” or that anyone be forced to hunt with a scope—anymore than mandatory use of rangefinders or even binoculars would be reasonable. We don’t need more gun laws, we need less. We don’t need more bureaucracy, we need less.
 

Whether handgun, rifled shotgun, or muzzleloader—those who can more accurately place a bullet with a scope should be allowed to do so. To not encourage effective, efficient, humane, safe hunting is a tortured path that defies logic and the delicate sensibilities of those possessing common sense. To not take a game animal as efficiently as possible shows no respect for that animal.
 
Allowing scope use is just as sensible as a regular visit to the eye doctor, and enhancing your vision when possible when operating equipment. It makes as much, if not more sense when that equipment is a firearm.
 
Thank you for reading this letter and taking the time to consider the proposal of perhaps updating regulations for the general muzzle loader seasons
 
Thank you,
 

ML Hunter...you have the right to speak for yourself..you felt strong enough about your argument to write a letter.  Realize that there are many people on here that like the primitive seasons and weapons.  You ask in your statement "I hope you will all take the time to read my message and hopefully join me in trying to make a change".  Well some of us don't want change we like it how it is.  You have the right to represent yourself.  But you don't represent me..I like the challenge with open sights.    

[ML_Hunter]

If we go to scopes and all the more updated materials on muzzys, we might as well stop and have a modern hunt. They will almost reach out to a couple hundred yards. And yes there are lots of people that will push the envelope just like archery. Maybe there should be a more primitive season?? don't know the more modern things get the more people will take advantage.

With any season you will see people push the envelope, in modern rifle with people take 500yds shots and never practiced anything past 100, archery hunters shooting 80 yds, and muzzleloader hunters shooting at 170 yds with open sights.  Yes, all of these shots can be accomplished, with practice, and 100 percent confidence in the shot and shot placement with the properly presented shot.  Would I take any of thses shots...No, Would I take a shot past 100 yds with my ML...No, would I do so even with a scope (1x or 1.5x scope)...No.  

What I'm trying to say is that the same people who will push the envelope, are the same people who are currently pushing the envelope.  

[ML_Hunter]

You have the right to represent yourself.  But you don't represent me..I like the challenge with open sights. 

I'm not trying to represent anyone who dose not want to be represented.  The only view I represented was my own, and if anyone agreed, they could do so, and anyone who disagreed could also do so.  When I sent the letter, my name on was at the bottom of it, not the national muzzleloaders association, or hunting washington forum.  Just my name and it alone.

[bobcat]

I would argue that your claim that a scope is a safety enhancement is not a valid agreement. I have never used a scope on a modern rifle to confirm anything. Before I raise my rifle, I have verified all I need to know to feel safe enough to even consider raising my barrel. Binoculars are your way to "confirm" your target, not a scope. Additionally, if a scope is needed to keep guys from shooting button bucks instead of does as you have suggested, these hunters need to get re-educated about how to confirm their quarry prior to raising a gun. 

& PS, I corrected your spelling errors

Why did you change "arguement" to "agreement?"          

[ML_Hunter]

oh cuz i click on the wrong line on the spell checker 

[Curly]

If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.

I JUST HAVE TWO WORD FOR YOU, BUT THERE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!!  

Wow, talk about attack............   You're the one here without any brain power.......maybe you should move to the midwest or somewhere where they will let you hunt with your scoped Encore........

[Curly]

If you really want to hunt with a scoped rifle the answer is really simple...........hunt the modern firearm season with your scoped ML.

I JUST HAVE TWO WORD WORDS FOR YOU, BUT THERE THEY'RE NOT FOR ALL EYES TO READ, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN ASSUME WHAT THEY ARE, THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN POWER TO THINK!!! 

And when you go and yell at someone and call them an idiot, you should use correct grammar, it only makes you look like the moron that you obviously are when you don't use correct English.  (You know, since you thought you'd be "smart" and try to correct ICEMAN's spelling and point it out.) 

OK, back to the topic at hand.  So you want the features of a modern rifle, and the seasons of a primitive weapon?  Do you know how hard it would be to enforce a law saying scoped ML with 1.5X or less power are legal?  Anyway, I was totally serious and sincere in my original statement of saying that you should simply hunt during modern rifle season if you want to use a scope.  WDFW just changed the ML requirements a couple years ago to allow ML to be used during modern rifle seasons with scopes and 209 primers, so there should be no reason for you not to do that. 

Actually, the modern firearm deer seasons are longer and occur at a better time than ML seasons, so you probably would have better success hunting deer during modern firearm with you ML......and if you enjoy hunting with your ML so much, why not hunt during modern?   The only difference is the number of people out in the woods, but you should be able to get away from the crowds if you try hard enough. 

You're a young enough guy too, that you shouldn't have a problem seeing with open sights.  It's old guys like me that should be begging for scoped ML.......but if my eyes get so bad that I can't hunt with open sights, I'll just hunt modern firearm.

Have you looked into using peep sights?

BTW, WDFW isn't the only wildlife dept in the west that doesn't allow scoped ML.  I know that ID and OR both have more restrictive rules regarding ML.......and I bet that Montana, WY, NV, UT, CO, NM, and CA all have similar rules.......but I'm not sure on those states.

[BlackRidge]

This is probably not the way ML_Hunter was wanting this thread to go.
 

  not at all lol.  The only thing that is annoying me is that everyone is open to there own opinion, it can be listened to, ignored, agreed with, argued, or attacked.  Seems like everyone here is going the attack method.  I guess I should quit being so nice to everyone else and attack opinions I don't agree with as well.

I wouldnt say everyones attacking you or your opinion, just that it differs from their own and changes in one area would likely cause changes elsewhere. Ultimately, even though its about ML's, it effects us all