Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Bow Hunting => Topic started by: Little Fish on September 29, 2010, 05:04:51 PM

Title: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Little Fish on September 29, 2010, 05:04:51 PM: During early elk season I had an opportunity to take a doe, but realized at the last minute she had a young fawn with her (this year's fawn). I didn't take the shot, but am curious to know what would have happened to that fawn had I taken her mother. Would a very young fawn or calf elk be able to survive if it lost its mother? It seems like a calf might be able to because they can just hang with the herd and are feeding on plants by September, but am not sure about a fawn. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: lokidog on September 29, 2010, 05:47:56 PM: I think a lot of it depends on the number of predators and the available food supply. Fawns might try to sneak a drink yet this time of year but, here, even our late fawn in the backyard which still has spots, is not drinking off mom and eats grass/plants and apples.

I do think you are right that a calf elk would more likely survive due to it being part of a herd.

I might pass on a doe during early season with a fawn but would not pass on a cow with a calf, or even the calf given a good opportunity for a clean shot. I would take the same doe during late season though if it was a matter of filling the freezer. :twocents:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: npaull on September 29, 2010, 06:08:07 PM: I hunt with my longbow for meat. They are all trophies with a longbow. I shoot the first legal animal that presents a shot. This years offspring are fully capable of taking care of themselves - indeed, they are generally chased off during the rut.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: the1rod on September 29, 2010, 07:58:02 PM: some friends of mine were hunting early archery elk and came across a cow who had been shot and not recovered. she look like she had been there a couple days and she had a calf who hadn't left her side. they next day they went back and the calf still hadn't left so they notched a tag on it thinking that it would not live. now if the mother had been recovered and was not around there is no way to know what the calf would have done. with this in mind i would probably pass on a cow with a calf or a doe with a fawn, especially since i rifle hunt and usually could find a solo doe or cow to fill the freezer. :twocents:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: hoyt5199 on September 30, 2010, 12:00:43 PM: I would at least wait until the young were a year old, I just a doe last year in michigan and she still had milk, the young still need the mother to survive until, the mom will usually leave the youngs after a while
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Ray on September 30, 2010, 05:27:12 PM: I have passed on a lot of does with fawns. I think it's the right thing to do most of the time and have eaten tags over the decision several times. Including last year. Let em grow. I might take a cow which travels with an elk calf though. I believe they are more likely to survive among the herd. Just my take on it.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: elkoholic on October 01, 2010, 06:14:25 AM: The cow I shot this archery season had a calf.. we diddnt see the calf when I shot. we walked up on them and watched them for about 20 minutes before they feed close enough for me to take the shot. they were out in the open the whole time...I shot her and packed her out(still no calf to be seen) went back in the next morning to check the pile for bears yotes or whatever and threw a cow call and a calf comes running in, we were about 200 yards from the gut pile still. Not sure it was her calf or not but I think it was....
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Bob33 on October 01, 2010, 06:28:53 AM: Calves can survive without a mother, although they are more prone to predation with a mother's protection. I would guess that calf loss is considered when setting seasons and limits. In other words, there is an assumption that some calves will also be lost. Is that necessarily a bad thing if there is a surplus of animals?
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: boneaddict on October 01, 2010, 06:31:17 AM: I just don't take cows or does. I want a herd thats multiplying, so you leave the females alone. I'm not hungry though. I'm not passing any judgements by the way, just saying I never take them. Lots of talk about buck to doe ratios and things. I'll worry about that when the population has peeked, which I don't see happening in the near future.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: elkoholic on October 01, 2010, 06:35:50 AM: We did see a bear less than 1/4 mile away from my gutpile also.. my brother shot the calf after it went away and came back to our calls twice. We figured something was going to get it if we diddnt shoot it anyways...
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: jackelope on October 01, 2010, 06:54:00 AM: I've passed any does I could have shot if they had fawns with them. This includes back east where I could have shot a couple does a year. I just don't feel like I need the meat that bad.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: patton1 on October 01, 2010, 03:15:19 PM: I'm with you jackelope. I've shot plenty of does in my life but never one with a fawn. I'm not against it, I just can't bring myself to kill momma with baby hanging around. I guess I'm just a big softy. :angel:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Little Fish on October 01, 2010, 03:53:09 PM: Thanks for all the input....maybe I'm a little too soft as well.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Gutpile on October 01, 2010, 04:28:15 PM: When I have a doe tag I shoot the biggest slick head in the bunch with or without a fawn. Same thing with my daughter. She knows to just shoot the biggest one. The fawns will be fine they get kicked out in a month anyways. I don't know anything about Elk but would assume the same.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 04, 2010, 08:07:47 AM: Two years ago I shot a cow with a calf I didn't know the calf was there. When we found the cow the calf (still with spots) was laying next to its dead mother. It seemed kinda sad at the time. 3 days later the calf was dead about 100 yards away from what was left of its dead mothers guts. Something had gotten the calf and eaten half of it.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Charlie on October 05, 2010, 11:17:46 AM: +1 Softy here too.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: haugenna on October 05, 2010, 11:24:26 AM: Cow yes, doe no. The deer are not herding animal and the fawn would probably die of predation. The calf could join the herd and be fine.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: mjbskwim on October 06, 2010, 02:07:35 PM: My doe from this year had a yearling in tow.Actually it ran farther than she did.I never saw it again but she stood still,kinda waiting for me.
Anyway,up here I have 2 sets of twins that go thru my yard,and another neighborhood down, the road, had 3 sets of twins in 1 yard.
Not too worried about the 1 I saw with my deer.
A week later I saw a set in the same area.1 bolted as the other one stood there and looked at me.I had to honk to get it to move.
So even if mom is around,some will survive and some won't.I don't believe we make a big difference if they aren't still spotted
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: mjbskwim on October 09, 2010, 01:53:21 AM: Could be,but up here they all seem to have at least one so not sure who's they are adopting.
Plus they are eating very healthy.
Alfalfa,roses,pansies,hedges,pretty much all the gardens
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: BIGMIKE on October 09, 2010, 09:03:31 AM: I'd pass....just to maximize my time outdoors, after all hunting is an annual tradition spent with family and friends. To me more time means more memories and experience.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: MAVsled on October 10, 2010, 09:18:28 PM: i'd pass every time, doe w/fawn or cow elk w/calf.

40 years ago, me, my dad and one of his camp friends are in the field on day one of cow elk season. His friend has a cow tag.
well he puts down a cow, seconds after the shot the calf appears. 3 days later the calf was still in the area and this with a snow migration of several hundred elk moving through the general vicinity. that calf never hooked up with small bands of elk that from tracks in the snow, were pushing through daily in the kill vicinity.
Last day of the season, dad & I were tagged out earlier. But we took a walk in woods and passed close to the where the cow had been taken in Grouse Haven. Jumped the calf out of it's bed near a group of firs...less than 50 yards from the now snow covered gut pile.
My preference became antlered game from that day on.

so if I had a cow or doe tag (& for 2010 drawn a 2nd deer tag Gardner-whitetail antlerless-mf), I'd eat the tag rather than orphan a fawn or calf.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: longknife on November 20, 2010, 08:57:56 PM: Ya, i was wondering what you guys say about the calf, or fawn.
The deer gestation is 2x a year, and an elk once. This can equal to 4 deer fawns, and 2 elk calfs. The fawn, or calf would be the best bet, because the cow, or doe will produce more for its age. And a yearling elk is tasty!

The only bad part, would be ending up with a bull calf!!!
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 20, 2010, 09:22:30 PM: Quote from: boneaddict on October 01, 2010, 06:31:17 AM
I just don't take cows or does. I want a herd thats multiplying, so you leave the females alone. I'm not hungry though. I'm not passing any judgements by the way, just saying I never take them. Lots of talk about buck to doe ratios and things. I'll worry about that when the population has peeked, which I don't see happening in the near future.

I agree. My exception is when I have permission on private ground, ( generally in a residential area ) that truly is overpopulated. Then I am hunting mature bucks first, but will take a doe late in the season if I have had the opportunity to observe her.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Gutpile on November 20, 2010, 09:23:00 PM: Quote from: longknife on November 20, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Ya, i was wondering what you guys say about the calf, or fawn.
The deer gestation is 2x a year, and an elk once. This can equal to 4 deer fawns, and 2 elk calfs. The fawn, or calf would be the best bet, because the cow, or doe will produce more for its age. And a yearling elk is tasty!

The only bad part, would be ending up with a bull calf!!!

Huh?? Are you saying that a doe has two "litters" a year?
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: longknife on November 20, 2010, 09:25:46 PM: Deer can produce up to 4 offspring a year. If they dont get pragnant in November, in 28 days, they will have their second estrus. They have 2 chances to get nailed by a buck. Sorry if i meant 2 offsprings

http://www.desertusa.com/mag99/june/papr/wtdeer.html (http://www.desertusa.com/mag99/june/papr/wtdeer.html)
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Gutpile on November 20, 2010, 09:30:50 PM: Incorrect. They can double there numbers in a year. They do not reproduce twice a year. They breed once a year and have 1-3 fawns once a year.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Humptulips on November 20, 2010, 09:38:55 PM: If the Department of Wildlife says it it must be true. :bash:

Maybe twins but only once a year.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: longknife on November 20, 2010, 09:41:10 PM: OMG, look at the post
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Gutpile on November 20, 2010, 09:55:02 PM: Quote from: longknife on November 20, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
OMG, look at the post

OMG. Like, you changed yer post. LOL.

The way you worded it before the edit was incorrect. You said that deer reproduce twice a year. That is incorrect no matter where it's posted. Like OMG.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: PolarBear on November 20, 2010, 09:59:06 PM: Quote from: boneaddict on October 01, 2010, 06:31:17 AM
I just don't take cows or does. I want a herd thats multiplying, so you leave the females alone. I'm not hungry though. I'm not passing any judgements by the way, just saying I never take them. Lots of talk about buck to doe ratios and things. I'll worry about that when the population has peeked, which I don't see happening in the near future.
:yeah:
I've arrowed cows in the past but never a doe. Won't ever do it again. We need the ladies to make more babies!
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: blacktail luv on November 20, 2010, 10:09:48 PM: Shoot a cow or a doe is like making love to ur sister. :twocents:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on November 20, 2010, 10:10:43 PM: You have experiance in both I take it?
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: PolarBear on November 20, 2010, 10:11:33 PM: :puke:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: Superhunter333 on November 20, 2010, 11:34:46 PM: i did a little research and most biologist say a fawn can survive without its mother after 6 months but stays with her purely as a social behavior when i first read this post i was appalled that someone would shoot a doe with fawn growing up that was a big no no but after doing some research I'm less inclined to judge. i dont know if ill ever be faced with this decision cause i only shoot big bucks :chuckle: ha ha just kidding
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: huntnnw on November 21, 2010, 01:58:28 AM: Also they studied orphaned fawns, buck fawns will live the rest of their life in the general area. A buck fawn who is booted away by mama would range in the study from 1 to 19 miles with an avg of 3-5 miles away it would call home. If u have large tracts of land that u mangae, it would be wise to shoot does with button fawns in the early season.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: krout81 on November 21, 2010, 03:38:27 AM: Quote from: Michelle_Nelson on November 20, 2010, 10:10:43 PM
You have experiance in both I take it?
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Quote from: Superhunter333 on November 20, 2010, 11:34:46 PM
i did a little research and most biologist say a fawn can survive without its mother after 6 months but stays with her purely as a social behavior when i first read this post i was appalled that someone would shoot a doe with fawn growing up that was a big no no but after doing some research I'm less inclined to judge. i dont know if ill ever be faced with this decision cause i only shoot big bucks :chuckle: ha ha just kidding

Intersting info I have shot several does in the late season and a few have had fawns. My dad always told me that the fawns would be fine never looked into it for myself. I have shot a few fawns and even a spike or 2 in the late season and boy they taste great. I supose I just dont like the fact of paying for a tag, buying all the gas and food, and using my vacation time without getting something in return. I have done enough of that in early elk season. TAG SOUP YUUUUUUUKKKKKKK
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: PolarBear on November 21, 2010, 04:14:11 AM: Tag soup can still be very satisfying if you stick to your goals and don't compromise. To quote a line from a Deep Purple song, "it's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase".
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: krout81 on November 21, 2010, 04:31:50 AM: Quote from: PolarBear on November 21, 2010, 04:14:11 AM
Tag soup can still be very satisfying if you stick to your goals and don't compromise. To quote a line from a Deep Purple song, "it's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase".
I get the same rush shooting any animal, for me its about getting close enough and putting an arrow into the sweet spot. If its a cow or a doe then so be it.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: ICEMAN on November 21, 2010, 05:21:48 AM: Quote from: Michelle_Nelson on November 20, 2010, 10:10:43 PM
You have experiance in both I take it?

:yike:

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: longknife on November 21, 2010, 07:02:52 AM: Quote from: Gutpile on November 20, 2010, 09:30:50 PM
Incorrect. They can double there numbers in a year. They do not reproduce twice a year. They breed once a year and have 1-3 fawns once a year.
I like how you know it all, they can have up to 4 does a year.
I stated i had messed up my wording. They have 2 estrus cycles in one year. Elk have one.
By no means am i giving any indians a plug, but isnt that what the native americans used to do, was target the young? Better tasting, and it wont be long, and the cow, or doe can still reproduce the following year
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: runamuk on November 21, 2010, 07:30:43 AM: Quote from: longknife on November 21, 2010, 07:02:52 AM
Quote from: Gutpile on November 20, 2010, 09:30:50 PM
Incorrect. They can double there numbers in a year. They do not reproduce twice a year. They breed once a year and have 1-3 fawns once a year.
I like how you know it all, they can have up to 4 does a year.
I stated i had messed up my wording. They have 2 estrus cycles in one year. Elk have one.
By no means am i giving any indians a plug, but isnt that what the native americans used to do, was target the young? Better tasting, and it wont be long, and the cow, or doe can still reproduce the following year

gonna have to say you are wrong I am a bit of an animal repro fanatic and deer are much like goats and sheep similar cycles and similar gestation etc...deer may cycle at the beginning of the breeding season and miss and cycle again late and catch...however there is no way a doe has two gestations in a year its not probable...will leave a possibilty that someone can find some doe in a zoo who did. Now deer like sheep and goats normall have singles to twins with triplets on occasion and yes 4 is possible but not probable the toll it takes on a doe to raise singles and twins is enough quads would likely end in one of the quads dying due to being a runt.

I was raising a breed of prolific sheep that had litters and could breed more than once a year they cycled more frequently than just fall.....even with my best ewe under ideal circumstances I could only get 3 lambings in 2 years so a sheep in a perfect setting no predators lots of food and shelter can barely do that a deer in the wild is gonna have a rough go of it with just the once a year....they are built like this to aid in survival...we humans manipulate animals and nature to our convenience and it isn't always to the benefit of the species...
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: bow_hunter44 on November 21, 2010, 07:50:44 AM: I grew up on a sheep ranch. We had a few, (count them on one hand) quads during lambing. A rare occurrence to say the least. Estrus is seasonal only (in the fall, with the exception of an exotic breed or two). Not necessarily one estrus, a sheep (or a deer) can cycle more than once a year if they don't catch on their first cycle.

I have taken a doe or two and a cow elk (singular). I have seen lots of orphaned lambs. They have a tough time of survival, to say the least. Yes they can make it, but it is tough. I would say that the chances of a fawn or a calf orphaned in the wild (spots or no) would have, at best, a slim chance of survival. So, given the opportunity to take a doe or a cow carrying a little one - I would pass.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: longknife on November 21, 2010, 08:20:21 AM: I guess im wrong, i will go back to school
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: tip on November 21, 2010, 11:26:49 AM: hmm...I have no problem taking a doe, you can't eat antlers. But that's just me...

That being said, I wouldn't take a doe w/ a fawn or cow w/ calf.
Title: Re: Taking a doe (w/fawn) or cow (w/calf)?
Post by: addicted on November 21, 2010, 12:14:29 PM: Over here where we have no tags or bag limits it is very common to take a doe with a fawn or a cow with a calf. The important thing is that you shoot the calf/fawn before the momma in case it runs away.

In WA i would probably just pass.