Post by: trophyhunt on December 09, 2010, 07:29:37 AM
Post by: bigtex on December 09, 2010, 09:34:11 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 09, 2010, 02:30:42 PM
Post by: backcountry55 on December 09, 2010, 03:08:52 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 09, 2010, 03:51:53 PM
Post by: backcountry55 on December 09, 2010, 04:23:30 PM
Post by: BigZum on December 10, 2010, 08:44:59 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 11, 2010, 12:14:50 PM
Post by: BAR C3 on December 12, 2010, 09:56:19 AM
I am a ferm believer that you never stop trying to improve things and I am a fighter to the end. All the problems do not lie on the Indians or native Americans. Yes everything in this thread is true, I have had many unpleasurable run ins with Indians over the years while I have been scouting and/or hunting. But if I may be allowed to throw my two cents in. Many things have ruined hunting in this State. Yes the Indians being able to do what ever they want when ever they want is a huge factor, so is the fact that hound hunting's was taken away, baiting for bears was taken away, trapping for the most part was taken away. Mans way of controlling predator's which kill many off spring have been greatly compromised by the spineless government in Olympia who could fix the problem. :bash: :bash: Many of the folks making the decisions in Olympia have never had a rifle, fishing pole, smoke pole, bow and arrow in their hands. I was drawn for the White River tag this year, saw several bulls and harvested a very nice one. My partner also was drawn and he too harvested a nice bull. We worked for them, very hard !! I have the pleasure of hunting several States, Colorado, Utah, Montana, Wyoming. These States are truly managed for the good of the herds, not how can we make a buck $$$ at any cost. Yes Utah has made some mistakes when it comes to their deer population but my god look what they have done with there Elk herds. I will continue to put in for special hunts in this State but other than that if I don't get drawn the rifle stays in the gun cabinet. I have been fed up for several years with the mismanagement of the wild life in this State. I will continue to fight, but I am a fraid to say between pay to hunt, Indians shooting whatever they want, no real way of managing predator's, and the folks running the Wild Life Division in Olympia, this State is doomed for the avid hunters like the folks on this site. It will never happen but if everybody in Washington state would not buy any licenses for one year just think what kind of voice we would have in Olympia. Till then save your dimes and nickles and hunt out of State you will be amazed at the difference good management can make. Just my :twocents:Best analysis I've read on here and Agree 110%!
To boot, the Game Department is excited for the re-introduction of the wolf to Washington State. Guess you should of asked Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana how much fun there having. I wish all hunters and fishermen would unite in this state for one year and boycott buying tags and licences and watch the whole thinng go down the drain and demand change. It will never happen because of Greed!
Post by: h_chris_e on December 13, 2010, 10:28:15 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi20.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb209%2Fh_chris_e%2FHarvestDataGMU6531997-2008-1.png&hash=79f4a46d34d27d39119adde63acad22dbbca3702)
Hint 1-when is there a spike in tribal %
Answer=2006
If the number of Elk harvested remains the same how has the limited permits helped?
If the number of Bulls harvested remains the same how has the herd benefited?
I Am all for conservation and wouldn't mind not hunting there for a couple years to increase the herd numbers. Heck it would benefit us all especially if it open for general season again. I hope they figure out how to grow the herd so I can hunt there one day.
On a side note I heard somewhere that some of the land that Weyerhaeuser sold to Hancock was possibly being sold to a tribe(Maybe Muckleshoot) I do not know if this is true or a rumor. If it is true it may not matter if they ever open it for general season agian.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 14, 2010, 07:26:41 AM
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2010, 10:27:02 AM
Post by: bigtex on December 14, 2010, 01:26:57 PM
On a side note I heard somewhere that some of the land that Weyerhaeuser sold to Hancock was possibly being sold to a tribe(Maybe Muckleshoot) I do not know if this is true or a rumor. If it is true it may not matter if they ever open it for general season agian.
They sold SOME of the land to Muckleshoots. If I remember correctly its about 7,500 acres.
New this year Hancock is NOT allowing treaty hunting on their lands. So if a tribal member wants to hunt Hancock lands they need to follow WDFW regulations and get the licenses/tags that general citizens need.
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2010, 01:40:31 PM
Post by: link on December 14, 2010, 04:55:21 PM
Are you talking KapowsinMust be Kapowsin, they wouldn't do that for the white river area.
Post by: MooseStock on December 14, 2010, 07:55:57 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:51:32 AM
Are you talking Kapowsin
ALL Hancock lands will be closed to treaty hunting because it has been ruled that Hancock lands are not "open and unclaimed" which is necessary for tribal hunting to occur.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 15, 2010, 11:13:35 AM
I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 11:38:17 AM
I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Well lets see, Mucks can use a crossbow at any time (this came from a Muckleshoot hunter). General citizens can only use them if they are disabled or in a firearm restriction area. Hmmm sounds to me WDFW rules are more strict.
How can you say they are highly enforced? The Mucks can hunt from the Packwood area to Canada how does a muck enforcement officer know where a muck hunter is? He doesn't he simply works the area with the most pressure which means the other areas are totally open to crime.
I am friends with several WDFW Officers in the muckleshoot hunting area and have seen murder scenes of elk dead all over the place and going to waste. Pictures of elk hanging in garages with flies and maggots. People that hunt elk in snow 5 feet deep is not a hunter, and that is what the muckleshoots do.
I read the Muckleshoots annual report for last year and it said that the reason why the tribe bought the 7,500 acres from Hancock was to preserve tribal hunting rights and to stop tribal members from getting tickets from WDFW Officers. Hmmmmm maybe if the tribal members followed the law they would not get a ticket.
And finally, why if the Mucks are so great at wildlife management and enforcement why do most WDFW officers consider the Muck tribe to be the hardest to work/get along with? In fact most don't even try to work with them.
Post by: CRITTERSTICKER on December 15, 2010, 11:59:03 AM
Post by: wonder on December 15, 2010, 04:05:17 PM
Post by: ser300wsm on December 15, 2010, 04:10:59 PM
Post by: 7mag. on December 15, 2010, 04:13:18 PM
I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are out of your mind.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 15, 2010, 08:56:11 PM
You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:23:50 PM
You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Bruce Richards is probably the one thing that prevented the herd from going extinct. The Mucks have tried to have him fired many times and he was taken to the governor many times for things he did that were against the tribe. I would probably be right in saying that Bruce Richards has been the biggest/best help for wildlife in the White River area then any other person. Bruce has given nearly 40 years of his life to WDFW as a game warden in the White River area and gets no credit for the things he has done to help wildlife.
I think it shows your a good game warden when a tribe tries to have you fired. :twocents:
Post by: logger on December 15, 2010, 09:43:09 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:45:23 PM
Just a memory on my part, but in about 85 or 86 my dad was logging a salvage sale on the edge of goverment meadows up the 70 rd. I remember going up one morning and when you get on top and it's a big flat there was a game warden parked cross way's in the road counting elk and I had at that time never seen so many in one spot, they were everywhere and in talking with him he was going to call in a helicopter to bust up the herd because the indians were set to begin hunting the next day and he didn't want to have a huge slaughter on his hands.I will say when we were logging the forest service ground up there we saw elk everyday and now that it is permit only just totally blows me away to think what it once was. :twocents:
I'm willing to bet the game warden was Bruce Richards. He is basically the lone ranger in that area and has been since the mid-70s.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 16, 2010, 07:08:23 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 09:17:51 AM
Sure you can find exceptions to any regulations,but really, how many people do you know that hunt with crossbows. Is that the best comparison out there?I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Well lets see, Mucks can use a crossbow at any time (this came from a Muckleshoot hunter). General citizens can only use them if they are disabled or in a firearm restriction area. Hmmm sounds to me WDFW rules are more strict.
How can you say they are highly enforced? The Mucks can hunt from the Packwood area to Canada how does a muck enforcement officer know where a muck hunter is? He doesn't he simply works the area with the most pressure which means the other areas are totally open to crime.
I am friends with several WDFW Officers in the muckleshoot hunting area and have seen murder scenes of elk dead all over the place and going to waste. Pictures of elk hanging in garages with flies and maggots. People that hunt elk in snow 5 feet deep is not a hunter, and that is what the muckleshoots do.
I read the Muckleshoots annual report for last year and it said that the reason why the tribe bought the 7,500 acres from Hancock was to preserve tribal hunting rights and to stop tribal members from getting tickets from WDFW Officers. Hmmmmm maybe if the tribal members followed the law they would not get a ticket.
And finally, why if the Mucks are so great at wildlife management and enforcement why do most WDFW officers consider the Muck tribe to be the hardest to work/get along with? In fact most don't even try to work with them.
There are more enforcement officers per hunting tribal member than WDFW officers per state hunter. Yes they can hunt from Packwood to Canada, but you can hunt all over the state. Not following your logic. Maybe I am missing something.
I know a friend or I am friends with or I heard is always a great opener to a good story. Yes I know most of the enforcement guys in that area as well, and not to mention names but there are a few that hate everything about tribes regardless. And if the stories are coming from officers out of that office there stories don't hold a lot of water in my books. But that's just my books. I know the captain for that region and have never heard those complaints for Muckleshoot. I would hate to hear animals are being wasted, but I don't think that is the case for the majority of tribal hunters. By the way, if you need to feed your family or provide elk for a funeral, killing an elk in 5 feet of snow is not a huge deal to me. It is about gettingthe food that they need. Its not a state sportsman season type of a hunt. It isn't hunting at all really , It is getting in the woods getting the food you need and getting out. You may not like it as a sportsman, but that is what it is.
I doubt many of those tickets are legit and probably get tossed out by the court systems, however buying your own land is a nice way to take biased officers out of the picture and eliminate harassment don't you think?
Muckleshoot doesn't agree with all of WDFW's management strategies. They don't roll over for any management strategy that is proposed by WDFW. For instance, Muckleshoot put hundreds of thousands of dollars into elk adult and calf survival studies as well as deer and fawn survival studies to determine factors influencing the elk and deer populations. The largest contributing factor to zero to limited fawn and calf recruitment was cougar predation. Therefore the Muckleshoot tribe collared cougars to document the rate of predation by the cougars and came to the conclusion that some of them needed to be removed from the population. WDFW didn't want that, that didn't fit with their cougar plan. The tribe, while at odds with the WDFW removed and has been removing cats in the area while the WDFW is opposed. Muckleshoot managed game populations for the benefit of their hunting constituents, therefore it is in their best interest as a hunting community to provide maximum opportunity. Thus ensuring healthy huntable populations. WDFW on the otherhand has to manage populations for hunters, bunny huggers, etc. WE already know who has the loudest voice in Washington state out of the two groups. Remember hound hunting? Sorry for the ramble.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 09:23:27 AM
Of course they have done alot for their deer and elk and salmon as they dont have to spend their money across the state..The WDFW is alotted a certain amount of money for a calendar year and have to make a decision on what programs to fund from state line to state line along with paying the enforcers. The muckleshoot get to spend their TAX FREE money on whatever they want to, to make sure they get to kill their animals. I dont see why they just havent bought a couple thousand acres and make a high fence area and fill it with animals and shoot to their hearts content. Radio collaring doesnt do squat but track animals so they know where they went to so they can go and kill some more animals. If you want to show me something to make me change my thinking then show me a group of indians that bow hunts.. :twocents:YOu know it is kind of nice that they are putting their money towards wildlife management that benefits everyone. Sounds like they are buying land. Are you a biologist? If radio collaring doesn't to squat, then why is it done all over the world for wildlife management? I don't really want to show you anything. You have blinders on my friend. I have never understood the argument as to why an Indian needs to bow hunt? Really? Bowhunting makes you a hunter? I guess all of the rifle hunters out there aren't real hunters in your eyes, or am I missing something?
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 09:25:44 AM
You know i could say a whole lot on why the natives dont hunt with traditional weapons, but i will just say that hunting with a modern firearm is easier for them.... Enough said.... :twocents:Exactly, it is easier, that is why modern firearm is the largest user group.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 09:26:51 AM
No, just educated, sorry.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are out of your mind.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 09:40:14 AM
Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
Post by: 7mag. on December 16, 2010, 12:38:38 PM
Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 01:02:41 PM
No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years. I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting. Waste is waste. I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will. I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters. I do feel that things are getting better. I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it. That is why he was likely called off. The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable. If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange. Just an example. I am sure you have other stories and circumstances. As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
Post by: bigtex on December 16, 2010, 01:03:37 PM
Glad to read what you've written about Bruce. You couldn't have said it better, Gob bless the man. He was partner to my wife's uncle Terry Hoffer so we get to see him once in a while and the stories he has about the mucks will make your blood boil. The man is a hero to me and should be to all those who care about elk and other wildlife in our state. What sucks is when he retires the mucks will probably kill 10 elk in celebration, no matter what time of year it will be. It will be a sad day when he hangs up his boots, I wish he would write a book and/or sit down with a news person and tell his life story for all the public to hear. That would be very bad for the tribes, which would make me extremely happy. Go Bruce Richards, and for the younger wardens that are on this site- you can learn a lot from Bruce as you should.
The sad thing is Bruce is probably the last "true" game warden in this state. Being a game warden use to be part biologist and part cop. When hunting seasons were over you were in the woods doing biological studies on herds and working with the animals, and of course every once in a while you would run into a poacher. Now days they are "Fish and Wildlife Police Officers", not Wildlife Agents or Game Wardens. The biological aspect of their job duties is now gone, about the only time a WDFW Officer puts hands on a live animal these days are when an animal is running down main street and they need to tranquilize it. Other then that they are 100% law enforcement officers. Well Bruce really does his own thing, yea he is still a fish and wildlife law enforcement officer but he still does the wildlife management part of the job.
Unfortunately Bruce has not been given the support and backing he should be getting by the department, and it is probably one of the reasons he can be a "grumpy" guy. But if you really know him then you know he probably has the biggest heart of any man there is. He not only helps the wildlife in his area but also the kids in the area as well. He is always bringing high school students around and introducing them to wildlife management and science.
Your right, the tribe will probably have a huge celebration when he retires. I know he hasn't set a date yet but of course it is coming. He was about to retire 2/3 years ago but then WDFW Biologist Rocky Spencer died and Bruce basically violunteered and started WDFW Enforcement's Karelien Bear Dog Program which most people see on TV dealing with bear and cougar problems.
I would love it if Bruce were to write a book about his experiences in his career. But knowing the type of person he is, he is the last to "talk up" or hype himself up. A very quiet man who keeps to himself but has impacted a ton of lives and a truely important individual to wildlife in his area.
Post by: bigtex on December 16, 2010, 01:11:06 PM
Which tribe do you belong to? Because after looking at your post history you are obviously a member of some tribe.
Post by: bigtex on December 16, 2010, 01:16:01 PM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 01:18:14 PM
Practical:
Which tribe do you belong to? Because after looking at your post history you are obviously a member of some tribe.
No I am not a member of any tribe. I am a state hunter as well and have worked with tribal and state game issues for a while now. Some tribal programs I have worked pretty close with. The tribal posts interest me since some of the topics are pretty close to me at times. My goal is not to try to stir things up, but try to provide some insight from some of the programs that I have worked on or agencies that I have worked with. Unfortunately, by blood starts to boil sometimes too and I get carried away.
Post by: 7mag. on December 16, 2010, 01:20:24 PM
No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years. I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting. Waste is waste. I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will. I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters. I do feel that things are getting better. I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it. That is why he was likely called off. The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable. If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange. Just an example. I am sure you have other stories and circumstances. As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 02:03:16 PM
Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well. I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well. At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt. However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter. I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize. If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum. However, was it posted timberland or farmland? If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part. Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case.No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years. I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting. Waste is waste. I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will. I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters. I do feel that things are getting better. I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it. That is why he was likely called off. The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable. If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange. Just an example. I am sure you have other stories and circumstances. As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.
Post by: skipper on December 16, 2010, 02:13:22 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 16, 2010, 02:18:16 PM
Bruce told me about that incident, it was not in the forest land and was on private property. The story is true and did happen, just a small example of what he has had to put up with in his career.Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well. I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well. At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt. However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter. I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize. If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum. However, was it posted timberland or farmland? If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part. Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case.No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years. I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting. Waste is waste. I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will. I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters. I do feel that things are getting better. I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it. That is why he was likely called off. The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable. If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange. Just an example. I am sure you have other stories and circumstances. As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 02:24:53 PM
Must have made him pretty mad, sounds as though he made a point to tell the whole world this story. Not sure how that subject comes up in normal conversation or by being checked in the field?Bruce told me about that incident, it was not in the forest land and was on private property. The story is true and did happen, just a small example of what he has had to put up with in his career.Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well. I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well. At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt. However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter. I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize. If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum. However, was it posted timberland or farmland? If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part. Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case.No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years. I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting. Waste is waste. I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will. I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters. I do feel that things are getting better. I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it. That is why he was likely called off. The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable. If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange. Just an example. I am sure you have other stories and circumstances. As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?Not out of my mind. I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management. I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters. It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area. The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort. I don't have to ask anyone, I was there. If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing? I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside. I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot. I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards. I prefer to get my stories from his boss.You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years. That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!! They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River. The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults. I think over 90% of them were cougar kills. If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem. I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better. Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done. IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them. Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists. And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household. They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data. :twocents:
You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.
I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.
Post by: bigtex on December 16, 2010, 02:33:58 PM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 16, 2010, 02:39:39 PM
Practical: Some of us actually talk to WDFW Officers when being checked. Kind of like, any big cases lately? or What happened last week, I saw you going with lights and siren?I have only hunted Washington for a decade now and I have never been checked in the woods. I guess it is because I try to stay away from masses. Maybe thats why it seems odd.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 16, 2010, 03:59:09 PM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 17, 2010, 09:30:10 AM
Bruce is a friend of the family's so I didn't just run into him in the woods. If I had a better memory I would love to recite a few pages of his experiences with the mucks and all the travesties they've done.You know I figured some of the folks had to know him. Usually a person is more passionate about the stories if they have a connection to the person telling them. Just as I am fairly passionate about some of the stories I have heard the tribes tell me about hunting and harrassment. I am not trying to discount anyones stories, but just trying to make the point, that while yes there probably have been some unethical hunting issues that tribes have been involved with in the past, but there have also probably has been harrassment to tribal hunters in the past as well.
I just hate to see people dog the tribal and state wildlife departments for the misguided ways of the politicians and a few bad hunters.
Post by: 7mag. on December 17, 2010, 04:24:46 PM
7 mag bet you're talking about the elk thats hanging in the tribes building that was shot on private land in a farmers field lol :stirthepot:
That is one of the 2 I'm talking about. After the incident, so many local people knew about it, and called the game dept. mad, Bruce was instructed to write a letter to the editor in a local newspaper, explaining why he was wrong, and why he gave the animal back. That is the one, I believe that is hanging in the tribes building. These are only the accounts that I was present for, not even a drop in the bucket, compared to the rediculous violations I've either seen or heard about from close friends.
Post by: AKBowman on December 18, 2010, 03:11:15 PM
Good point, you know I've never run across any native americans when I've been out bowhunting (38 years) ? Anyone out there want to add to these comments as to why no or few native americans hunt with bow and arrow ? After all, can't get much more traditional than that :twocents:
For the same reasons why they still hunt walrus/wales up north with outboard motors and high powered rifles. This subsistence thing is a crock of $hit. The nats want to have the right to hunt for "subsisntence" fine. I agree, but than you must hunt by traditional means and you must choose either the subsistence areas/seasons OR you pay for a tag and abide by the rules every other AMERICAN abides by.
The situation in this state with the nats does not seem to be equal rights at all. In fact there does not seem to be any equality what so ever.
Post by: AKBowman on December 18, 2010, 03:31:51 PM
Guy I have just lost ALL respect for anything you have to say. You are OK with words but if you are telling me that if a person of tribal membership goes onto private land and kills multiple elk (bulls and cows) cuts the head off of the bulls and leaves the cows to rot and you say they should get cited for tresspassing! That is sick. Listen, I have lived in and around tribal members my whole life and I find them to be some of the BEST people I have ever met. But its the old 80-20 rule, unfortunately the 20% that choose to waste and break laws can do so without governing! This makes no sense.
Ill tell you what should have happened to these wasteful people. They should have had all of their hunting gear confiscated, guns confiscated and anything they used to transport the heads confiscated (vehicles, etc).
In AK if you get caught poaching (tribal or state) they suspend or eliminate your hunting rights, confiscate your weapons, confiscate your vehicles (boat, plane, truck, car whatever you used to get to or from hunting location) THEN prosecute your ass.
According to you, what those muckleshoots did was not right so they should recieve a citation. That is a JOKE
Post by: Practical Approach on December 19, 2010, 05:23:11 PM
Why do you assume that subsistance hunting requires traditional hunting methods? Subsistence hunting puts food on the table, for ceremonies, funerals, weddings, etc. If you need game for yourself or a ceremony, why wouldn't you use the most quick and effective way to get the animal you need.Good point, you know I've never run across any native americans when I've been out bowhunting (38 years) ? Anyone out there want to add to these comments as to why no or few native americans hunt with bow and arrow ? After all, can't get much more traditional than that :twocents:
For the same reasons why they still hunt walrus/wales up north with outboard motors and high powered rifles. This subsistence thing is a crock of $hit. The nats want to have the right to hunt for "subsisntence" fine. I agree, but than you must hunt by traditional means and you must choose either the subsistence areas/seasons OR you pay for a tag and abide by the rules every other AMERICAN abides by.
The situation in this state with the nats does not seem to be equal rights at all. In fact there does not seem to be any equality what so ever.
I understand people don't like the idea, that there is some mental tie that to be native and subsistence hunt you must do it the way your ancestors did, but this simply doesn't make sense. If natives were to go back to traditional methods, then should they be allowed to have hunt however they want without any regulations? There were no regulations historically.... I am sure some of you will fire back that tribes don't use regulations anyway so what difference does it make, but you would be wrong.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 19, 2010, 05:31:26 PM
"If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum"That is OK. I am not here trying to earn peoples respect. Just enjoying commenting on some of the issues with tribal/state hunting. I believe the statement that you have quoted that I posted previously states cited for trespassing at a minimum. Do you know what minimum is. That means that they should be cited for everything they did wrong, but if they couldn't cite them for those other issues then tresspassing at a minimum. I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to convey.
Guy I have just lost ALL respect for anything you have to say. You are OK with words but if you are telling me that if a person of tribal membership goes onto private land and kills multiple elk (bulls and cows) cuts the head off of the bulls and leaves the cows to rot and you say they should get cited for tresspassing! That is sick. Listen, I have lived in and around tribal members my whole life and I find them to be some of the BEST people I have ever met. But its the old 80-20 rule, unfortunately the 20% that choose to waste and break laws can do so without governing! This makes no sense.
Ill tell you what should have happened to these wasteful people. They should have had all of their hunting gear confiscated, guns confiscated and anything they used to transport the heads confiscated (vehicles, etc).
In AK if you get caught poaching (tribal or state) they suspend or eliminate your hunting rights, confiscate your weapons, confiscate your vehicles (boat, plane, truck, car whatever you used to get to or from hunting location) THEN prosecute your ass.
According to you, what those muckleshoots did was not right so they should receive a citation. That is a JOKE
I agree with everything you say that happens in AK, I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. I am all for stronger enforcement and stiffer penalties for state and tribal poachers. Sorry that your panties got all in a wad. I think we are on the same page on the prosecution end of things.
Post by: greenhead_killer on December 19, 2010, 06:24:47 PM
so as far as substinence hunting goes, why shoot every quality bull or buck when the meat is so tough and gamey. wouldnt you think that if they were hunting for food, that they would want to shoot the most tender and best eating, cow or doe? it is just a shield that they hide behind and sooner or later, us tax paying americans, are going to hit boiling point and say enough is enough. you dont want ot contribute to anything that goes on in the state, except rape and pillage the natural resources we have, stay on your own soverign land. do whatever you want there, but stay the f off my land, or follow the rules like the rest of us.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 19, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
practical:I agree, if there are not any management restrictions that have cow hunting closed then I agree, cows or young bulls are better for harvesting. I agree that some are probably using it as a shield, however I hate to see all tribal hunters thrown into this category. There are a lot of good tribal hunters that abide by the rules and are disgusted by the situations described in this post.
so as far as substinence hunting goes, why shoot every quality bull or buck when the meat is so tough and gamey. wouldnt you think that if they were hunting for food, that they would want to shoot the most tender and best eating, cow or doe? it is just a shield that they hide behind and sooner or later, us tax paying americans, are going to hit boiling point and say enough is enough. you dont want ot contribute to anything that goes on in the state, except rape and pillage the natural resources we have, stay on your own soverign land. do whatever you want there, but stay the f off my land, or follow the rules like the rest of us.
In regards to not contributing anything, I don't want to get into the whole tax issue. I would rather talk about management, and the tribes contribute a substantial amount of money to wildlife management. The state and tribes often work hand in hand to insure there is enough money to make sure management is done properly.
I know we have all been down this road before about where tribes can and can't hunt. You mention sovereign land. Are you talking about reservations? Areas that tribes hunt has little to do with reservation land, it has to do with treaty language and more importantly how the language has been interpreted by judges over time. I am taking for granted that you don't understand this principle by the comments you made and the fact that you are a new poster on this forum.
Maybe I am wrong and you understand all the intricate details around tribal and state hunting and you are simply venting.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 20, 2010, 07:24:59 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 20, 2010, 08:25:13 AM
My grandfather and his grandfather had nothing to do with the indian wars, time to get over it. It is racism plain and simple- the fact that the tribes put themselves in a different category than us and they believe they deserve special rights with life, hunting, fishing and gambling this day and age is plain racism. Period. You might have decent tribes out on the coast, but these muck's are the worst in the state. IT'S WRONG, INDIANS ARE RACIST.Your grandfathers grandfather may not have had anything to do with the wars, but the politicians of his day did. They are the ones that wrote up the current treaties, they are the ones that put the tribes in different categories, they are the ones that wrote the language that gave the rights to the tribes. Whether it is racist or not is not for me to decide. It would be interesting to know how many of folks ancestors who were here in Washington back in the treaty days were in support of the treaties or not? Anyone out there have any information related to public support for treaties in the mid 1800's?????
Post by: trophyhunt on December 20, 2010, 12:46:20 PM
Post by: Practical Approach on December 20, 2010, 02:30:05 PM
Post by: deerslyr on December 20, 2010, 05:14:40 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 20, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
there has always been inequalities in our nation and I am sure there will continue to be inequalities in the future.Because you guys take advantage of the system, your tribes will never stop taking from the hand that feeds you when you haven't needed it for many, many years. Most of the indian hunting is taking place not because someone had a baby or got married or died. It's taking place to get under our skin, you feel it's your right to go hunt and kill anytime you want to! 150+ years ago my fore fathers used to go out and hunt for food and I'm sure just to hunt- Does that make it right for me to go kill at anytime now? No it doesn't because of besides the laws, I have the smarts enough to realize the animals can't survive if everyone thought the way the indians do! Really, what if we hunted the way you guys do???? Do you think there would be any game left???? Just because the past government many years ago gave you the right doesn't mean that you can't stop suckling from our nipples and raping the land of the animals that we care about 1000 times more than the tribes. Now I'm just getting more pissed so I will go for now.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 20, 2010, 08:29:21 PM
First of all I would like to clarify that I am not a native American. My comments are my own based on working with multiple agencies including tribal wildlife agencies.there has always been inequalities in our nation and I am sure there will continue to be inequalities in the future.Because you guys take advantage of the system, your tribes will never stop taking from the hand that feeds you when you haven't needed it for many, many years. Most of the Indian hunting is taking place not because someone had a baby or got married or died. It's taking place to get under our skin, you feel it's your right to go hunt and kill anytime you want to! 150+ years ago my fore fathers used to go out and hunt for food and I'm sure just to hunt- Does that make it right for me to go kill at anytime now? No it doesn't because of besides the laws, I have the smarts enough to realize the animals can't survive if everyone thought the way the Indians do! Really, what if we hunted the way you guys do???? Do you think there would be any game left???? Just because the past government many years ago gave you the right doesn't mean that you can't stop suckling from our nipples and raping the land of the animals that we care about 1000 times more than the tribes. Now I'm just getting more pissed so I will go for now.
Tribes are simply operating based off the system that was established by our government. True, the majority of animals harvested are probably not for ceremonies, I don't have the statistics on that, buy I am pretty sure the majority of tribal hunters are not out hunting to get under state hunter skin. Here we go again, almost every tribe has hunting regulations that the hunters have to abide by. No they aren't the same as state seasons, but they can't hunt any time they want unless it is for a ceremony and only by select designated hunters by the tribe. Yes our forefathers hunted when they needed food, buy we are now restricted by our government. Our governing agencies set our seasons based on populations and the sheer number of hunters in Washington. Tribes are a small piece of the hunting population. Since there aren't that many hunters the majority of the time when they harvest animals is irrelevant. It does not have the impact that it would if it were the thousands of state hunters. I am not in any way condoning illegal hunting or hunting closed wintering areas.
If state hunters really cared about the welfare of the game, there would be more people who were advocates of going to a permit only hunting process. There would be less animals harvested, fewer people chasing animals in the woods as well stressing them out. How about cutting back on seasons. Hell you can begin hunting in September and practically hunt till January. Practically, half of the year there is some user group chasing animals in the woods. Any one of those user groups harvest more animals than the tribes. I am sure you will disagree, but you have the regs and the harvest numbers are online.
What frustrates me about your comments and comments like yours is that, while you are frustrated with the system that has been set up years ago, you have failed to look at any of the positive things that are contributed by the tribes. You would rather grab hold of every incident that you or your buddies have either witnessed or heard about and fixate on them. Folks have no problem researching treaties and whats wrong with them, and every other way a tribe has wronged them, but they don't take the time to educate themselves on the role that every one of the tribal wildlife departments plays in managing the game that most of you are hunting.
Sure, you can say that its no big deal that it is your tax money at work, whether it is or isn't at least it is at work to help out the wildlife populations that everyone hunts. If tribes truly didn't care about the game populations then why would they waste the money on managing them. They don't have to. Is this their way of getting under your skin?
Again, I understand most everyones frustration. However, constructive conversation would be a nice change of pace rather than just venting. :twocents:
Post by: Coastal_native on December 20, 2010, 09:54:34 PM
This ones rough...I'd get out while you can. I think some of these guys had their minds made up before they even knew what an Indian was... :chuckle: I haven't seen anything that I would consider a constructive conversation yet, and being that you're already a couple pages into it, I would guess it's not going to happen. I see a trend...if you post a diplomatic response and refuse to participate in the "name calling" it just makes everyone more angry. I know it's fun to engage people in conversation, but you are getting out right slammed...I gotta hand it to ya...you got patience.
By the way, have we worked together before?...I was at the Mt St Hellens relocation in 2005. If you've spent as much time working with tribes as you say, I can't help but think we've worked together before. If you've worked with my tribe and have followed my posts you've got to have an idea who I am.
Doesn't it seem to you like state/tribal wildlife coops are popping up all over the place now. I can't help but think WDFW sees a potential advantage in working with tribes that have the funding to do this type of work, especially when state budgets are tight...could be a good thing. We've been assisting WDFW with comp counts in a GMU they don't even think we have the right to hunt in...this whole state/tribal thing baffles me.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 20, 2010, 10:08:38 PM
Practical,Yes I have a sick passion for abuse I guess. I know its an uphill battle that I really don't plan on winning, but I know there are others out there following the threads that don't post, that might take something from the debates that is either informative or positive.
This ones rough...I'd get out while you can. I think some of these guys had their minds made up before they even knew what an Indian was... :chuckle: I haven't seen anything that I would consider a constructive conversation yet, and being that you're already a couple pages into it, I would guess it's not going to happen. I see a trend...if you post a diplomatic response and refuse to participate in the "name calling" it just makes everyone more angry. I know it's fun to engage people in conversation, but you are getting out right slammed...I gotta hand it to ya...you got patience.
By the way, have we worked together before?...I was at the Mt St Hellens relocation in 2005. If you've spent as much time working with tribes as you say, I can't help but think we've worked together before. If you've worked with my tribe and have followed my posts you've got to have an idea who I am.
Doesn't it seem to you like state/tribal wildlife coops are popping up all over the place now. I can't help but think WDFW sees a potential advantage in working with tribes that have the funding to do this type of work, especially when state budgets are tight...could be a good thing. We've been assisting WDFW with comp counts in a GMU they don't even think we have the right to hunt in...this whole state/tribal thing baffles me.
I am sure we have worked together before, however I haven't quite put my finger on who you are yet. I worked both captures at St. Helens and have worked on a few of the projects at Quinault in the past. I have however enjoyed your posts, you have a great knack for keeping a level head.
Most of the tribes are in partnerships with the state now in some manner with big game management. It just makes good sense with budget shortfalls to make you money go as far as you can. Part of the problem is most folks don't know about any of the work that the tribes are doing to help out with game management. Unless there is a huge project that involves the states PR people most of the everyday management stuff flies under everyone's radar.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 21, 2010, 07:05:10 AM
Post by: 7mag. on December 21, 2010, 12:30:31 PM
So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?
Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 21, 2010, 03:55:57 PM
It's very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to have an attitude of "what's the problem? The natives are just doing what they are allowed to do." For most of us, we have grown up hunting fishing these lands the same as the natives that live here. We have also watched the local natives abuse their privileges time and time again. There most definitely is a "get under our skin" factor, as I have had numerous encounters with natives that flaunt their special rights in our faces. Bragging about how many deer and elk they have killed that particular year, and so on. I have witnessed natives breaking both state and tribal laws, and turned them in, only to watch them walk, with no penalty what so ever. I've had enough, I work hard, and pay my own way, and follow the same laws as all American's. I have native ancestry, my grandmother was full native. I have never even checked to see if I qualify for special hunting rights, because it's wrong. I am no more special than any one else. It's time for the en titlist attitude to stop. This country will be in constant turmoil until everyone is truly equal, and lowlifes are held accountable for abusing the system.:yeah:I couldn't have said it better. Thanks
So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?
Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.
Post by: Coastal_native on December 21, 2010, 05:51:42 PM
It's very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to have an attitude of "what's the problem? The natives are just doing what they are allowed to do." For most of us, we have grown up hunting fishing these lands the same as the natives that live here. We have also watched the local natives abuse their privileges time and time again. There most definitely is a "get under our skin" factor, as I have had numerous encounters with natives that flaunt their special rights in our faces. Bragging about how many deer and elk they have killed that particular year, and so on. I have witnessed natives breaking both state and tribal laws, and turned them in, only to watch them walk, with no penalty what so ever. I've had enough, I work hard, and pay my own way, and follow the same laws as all American's. I have native ancestry, my grandmother was full native. I have never even checked to see if I qualify for special hunting rights, because it's wrong. I am no more special than any one else. It's time for the en titlist attitude to stop. This country will be in constant turmoil until everyone is truly equal, and lowlifes are held accountable for abusing the system.
So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?
Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.
Actually, I should have never posted on this thread 7mag...I apologize. I thought Practical's last post was pretty well said, especially since he has somewhat of an objective opinion. I don't pretend to know anything about the Mucks situation...but it doesn't seem like the non tribal point of view changes too much depending on who's treaty area you live in. As for your question about "how pissed I would be if the tides were turned?"...I would probably be just as pissed as all of my non tribal family members who hunt...or my 20 non tribal friends that I hunt the state seasons with every year...not pissed at all. I wouldn't dwell on the isolated incidents that sometimes stem from tribal members abusing there rights...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.
I go into these threads knowing I'm not going to change anyone's opinion. If you hate the fact that Indians have more rights than you...that's fine...but, please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible for decimating game populations.
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 21, 2010, 06:05:06 PM
I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.
Post by: lewy on December 21, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
Post by: grundy53 on December 21, 2010, 06:26:08 PM
"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...
I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.
Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.
Post by: Coastal_native on December 21, 2010, 06:43:09 PM
"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...
I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.
Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.
I don't know if you are referring to me, but I've already acknowledged this. I don't like it when a tribal member hides behind the treaty to justify something that is unethical or against the law...It happens, maybe not as much as is expressed on this site, but I acknowledge that it happens. I've also admitted that it is hard to investigate, prosecute, and convict game violations, especially in small communities (like in Indian country). Most members on this forum make it sound as if no tribal member has ever gotten in trouble for violating a game law...and all non tribal poachers are caught, prosecuted, and convicted...that is not the case.
Post by: grundy53 on December 21, 2010, 06:47:56 PM
"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...
I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.
Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.
I don't know if you are referring to me, but I've already acknowledged this. I don't like it when a tribal member hides behind the treaty to justify something that is unethical or against the law...It happens, maybe not as much as is expressed on this site, but I acknowledge that it happens. I've also admitted that it is hard to investigate, prosecute, and convict game violations, especially in small communities (like in Indian country). Most members on this forum make it sound as if no tribal member has ever gotten in trouble for violating a game law...and all non tribal poachers are caught, prosecuted, and convicted...that is not the case.
No, I wasn't singling you out. Your actually really level headed and open minded.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 21, 2010, 09:11:22 PM
Our agenda is that we all are equal, and this special treament needs to stop.
...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.
Post by: Coastal_native on December 21, 2010, 09:58:19 PM
...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.
Our agenda is that we all are equal, and this special treament needs to stop.
That is a viewpoint I can work with...I may not agree, but I can work with it. I understand that there are several reasons why people have a problem with tribal hunting. If I was to categorize yours...I would presume based on your comment that you feel treaties create inequality...and that's the main reason behind your distaste for tribal hunting?
I will refrain from expressing my thoughts on how I think treaties have nothing to do with creating inequality...I've beaten that horse to death in previous threads.
Post by: 7mag. on December 21, 2010, 10:33:16 PM
"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...
I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.
I know that non tribal hunters commit far more game violations than tribal members. I don't know the percentage of tribal members involved in illegal activities, and I am sure that it changes drastically from tribe to tribe. I am sure that the majority of tribal hunters comply with the rules as do the majority of state hunters. It's that way in all of our society, 20% of the population, commits 80% of the crimes. I am upset about the lack of accountability when the tribal members do commit an offense. The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation. I know that the likelyhood of tribal game laws becoming equal to the state, is low, but it is a difference in opinion, depending on witch side of the fence your standing. The lack of punishment for violations, however, is unacceptable.
Coastal Native, feel free to comment on anything that I post. I enjoy your posts, and respect your opinion. As far as tribal issues go, I think that you have the most well written posts, of anyone on this site. I like to learn, and a difference in perspective is always a good way to learn.
Post by: Coastal_native on December 21, 2010, 11:48:18 PM
The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation.
The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they GET CAUGHT committing a game violation...I think that's what you meant to say?
I will add to that, and say...WDFW enforcement officers are out in full force during the state seasons...but outside of the state seasons when me and my fellow tribal hunters leave the reservation to hunt, I rarely see them (and it's understandable, because they have other work duties besides patrolling big game seasons)...who's watching the woods then? I still see an awful lot of young non tribal guys driving around in 4x4's with guns and alcohol, although it would be purely speculative for me to say that they are all out poaching.
That's a statistic you can't look up on WDFW's website. They can track how many people they check and how many citations they hand out, but they can't keep track of poachers that they don't catch.
I don't fault them for this...It's just how it is. It is a similar situation with tribal enforcement. The argument that state hunters rarely get away with game violations is overstated on this forum, IMO.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 22, 2010, 06:53:18 AM
Post by: Coastal_native on December 22, 2010, 09:27:08 AM
My whole point of this thread was to get people's awareness up on permit only units and what the tribes do in those units that have less non-indian hunters in them. I'm all for obtaining goals for the elk population but when the scale is tipping to one side and we all don't have the same goal in mind then the unit should be opened up to all. If you agree please call Dave Ware at 360-902-2509. Thanks for all the comments, most of them anyway.
:)Thats funny...I admit i didn't even really read the OP...sometimes I put my blinders on when I start seeing the tribal comments. This thread was jacked three times over...sorry.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 22, 2010, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: 7mag. on December 22, 2010, 04:50:28 PM
The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation.
The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they GET CAUGHT committing a game violation...I think that's what you meant to say?
I will add to that, and say...WDFW enforcement officers are out in full force during the state seasons...but outside of the state seasons when me and my fellow tribal hunters leave the reservation to hunt, I rarely see them (and it's understandable, because they have other work duties besides patrolling big game seasons)...who's watching the woods then? I still see an awful lot of young non tribal guys driving around in 4x4's with guns and alcohol, although it would be purely speculative for me to say that they are all out poaching.
That's a statistic you can't look up on WDFW's website. They can track how many people they check and how many citations they hand out, but they can't keep track of poachers that they don't catch.
I don't fault them for this...It's just how it is. It is a similar situation with tribal enforcement. The argument that state hunters rarely get away with game violations is overstated on this forum, IMO.
You're absolutely right, they can't punish someone that they don't catch. I'm sure that the non-tribal poaching, or littering, or just plain harassing wildlife is ten fold what the tribal poaching is. The difference, that I see, is when they are caught. I witnessed tribal members with radio equipment, tracking collared elk. Not unusual, that is a common practice. These individuals, all carried rifles except the one with the tracking equipment. Were they hunting? I can't prove it, but I called the game dept. and no one even showed up. I finally left in disgust after waiting for over an hour and a half.
I am told that these problems are very different depending on the tribe in question. I understand that most of the coastal tribes are very conservation concious, and manage the herds well. I have never been around them, so I don't know. I can only comment on what I have seen, and what I have been around my whole life.
As far as the comment that state hunter's rarely get away with game violations, I meant the one's that are caught. I am not talking about the poacher's that slip by. The non-tribal abuse of our public lands and game is a totally different subject, with just as big of problems, if not bigger. I don't want to sound like I hate Native American's or blame them for our game management problems. I am focusing, on this thread, on the problems associated with tribal hunting. I know that it is merely a drop in the bucket, concerning our game management in this state.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 23, 2010, 09:56:30 AM
Post by: 7mag. on December 23, 2010, 10:21:45 AM
7mag: wow which tribe was using tracking equipment. Did you talk to the guys. You must have since you knew they were hunting a tribal season and were actually hunting right. The reason I bring this up is that if I am darting game our dart guns can look exactly like rifles. Scoped and everything. Did this occur during a state hunting season. If so which one. Thanks for the info.
It was during modern deer season on the White River Tree Farm, about 7 years ago. I cannot prove that they were hunting. It was the same black Chevy pickup that I had seen a lot with elk in the back, and the methods(driving down the road, with 1 or 2 people in the back, with rifles). There was one man walking slowly down the road, with this truck following him. There was one man in the back of the truck, with a rifle, not a dart gun, definitely a rifle. There were several people in the truck with rifles (possibly dart guns, I couldn't tell). I had heard about this from a friend a couple of weeks prior, and thought that they must have been dart guns. This time, I had a good vantage point, and good optics, and they were moving slowly, so I watched them for some time. I never did see or hear them shoot. I don't know witch tribe it was, most likely Muckleshoot, as that is the tribe that I run into about 90% of the time up there. It is possible that they were performing an elk study, but it didn't look good, and especially during state deer season, and some of the same individuals that are often seen hunting the same area, the same way.
I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, and that what you have seen concerning conservation efforts is not true. I am just saying, don't believe everything they tell you. Some of them are up to no good, I have seen it. They use the tribe as protection to do what ever they want.
Post by: Practical Approach on December 23, 2010, 07:00:05 PM
I hear what you are saying. I have no doubt that some of the hunters are up to no good. It is human nature that there are always going to be some bad apples out there. I do feel that most tribes wildlife departments as managing agencies are solely out to do whats best for the animals and that it is some of the individual hunters that are breaking the rules or using the tribe as a shield when being prosecuted. Hopefully things will get better over time. Everyone have a Merry Christmas.
Post by: 7mag. on December 23, 2010, 10:08:24 PM
That would be extremely unethical if what you saw did turn out to be hunting. Usually, any work with animal capture takes place outside of the hunting seasons, both state and tribal.
I hear what you are saying. I have no doubt that some of the hunters are up to no good. It is human nature that there are always going to be some bad apples out there. I do feel that most tribes wildlife departments as managing agencies are solely out to do whats best for the animals and that it is some of the individual hunters that are breaking the rules or using the tribe as a shield when being prosecuted. Hopefully things will get better over time. Everyone have a Merry Christmas.
You have a Merry Christmas too, and thanks for your input.
Post by: JCClement on December 23, 2010, 11:11:14 PM
And death to all Wolves.