Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: PNWsportsman on December 12, 2010, 10:04:16 AM

Title: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: PNWsportsman on December 12, 2010, 10:04:16 AM: Do any of you have past experience with CCL injuries. I have a 4 yr old lab who started limping during a four day pre-thanksgiving rooster hunt. she has shown a minor limp with moderate stiffness after hunting since. What kind of treatments worked for you? If surgery, how much was the cost? Any info would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: Goldeneye on December 12, 2010, 10:52:10 AM: I have a 11 yr old lab that shows the symptoms you mention. Took her to the vet last year, after the exam and x-rays and she was diagnosed with scar tissue and wear of the elbow joint. Rather than surgery to attempt repair we decided to put her on deramaxx. It is an anti-inflammatory/pain killer. I give it to her the night before and then after the hunt. Seems to work. It was getting bad enough that after a hunt my pup could not go up or down stairs and was very difficult for her to stand up out of her bed. She's still an active hunter thanks to deramaxx. When not hunting she does not have the issue to much level and we don't need the medicine.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: mjbskwim on December 12, 2010, 05:58:50 PM: My Rot mix started to limp and couldn't walk very far at about 2yo.If she got on a rabbit,she would be down for days.

I cut her food down,trimmed her from 100# to 85 and changed her food to Avoderm Active Control.
All the additives in it for joints and all.
Changed her completely.We walked the entire Stellicoom Park 360 acres and she could run the whole park,chasing rabbits and still run when back to the truck.

I believe about 1/3 was the weight loss and the other 2/3 the food.
It is expensive at $50 for 35#s but it is still cheaper than buying all the additives.
I tried it first,before trying the joint supplements,and never needed to change anything since.

Good luck
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: PointNLab on December 13, 2010, 09:55:32 PM: http://www.svanimal.com/randy_acker.php#Q2frADT7GZI2v6pp (http://www.svanimal.com/randy_acker.php#Q2frADT7GZI2v6pp)

This is one of the most respected Vets in the NW for TPLO repair.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: jackelope on December 13, 2010, 10:02:40 PM: My now 10 year old lab damaged his left CCL about 2 years ago. After a trip to one vet and then a 2nd opinion and finding out the cost of the surgery we decided not to do surgery. I got him on Ligaplex 1 that I buy from amazon.com and I also give him glucosamine with chondroitin(sp?)...2 years later he's an old dog with a relatively good left rear leg. Now the same thing seems to be happening with his right rear so back to the drawing board I go. The surgery is about $3000.00 I was quoted. I was talking to a guy who owns a kennel out here and he told me to look into the old style surgery for this older dog of mine. It's about $1200 if you can find someone who does it. It would be good, he said, for an older less active dog like mine. If you want your dog to be 100% and he's a younger dog, get the big surgery done. The last trouble is that approx. 30% of dogs that get one leg done will get the other one done in the next 12 months. My old boy gets around pretty well and I don't have $3k to put into him, nevermind $6k.
We do short walks and I lengthen them on a weekly basis little by little. No hills and as little stairs as possible till he's feeling better. If the CCL is torn bad enough, it won't heal, you'll have to do the surgery.
:twocents:
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on December 14, 2010, 12:18:09 AM: Oh man, sorry to hear about your pup. My 6 year old female yellow lab tore both CCLs. I weighed the cost of the anti inflammatory meds for 6 more years (counting on a 12 year life span), additional vet visits when the injury flares up, the inability to run her at all or even really for her to play ball in the yard or at the park, etc. and ultimately decided to opt for surgery. She had her right knee done (TPLO surgery) August 30 at WSU's vetrinary hospital. They did the right knee first because she had torn the miniscus and it was clearly the more painful of the two. She did great with that surgery and is scheduled to have the right knee done December 30 at WSU. If my dog was older with less expected life to live I would have had to consider other options (the less expensive surgery if advised by the vet) but with a young dog, the TPLO surgery is really the only option if you want them to return to normal activity. Obviously cost is a serious consideration. We had to put down our 15 year old cocker beagle mix and an 18 year old cat due to cancer and kidney failure within 2 months of finding out about the CCL tears so we were not ready to let another pet go or to have a 6 year old geriatric dog that had all the desire in the world to run, jump, and play, etc. but that was physically unable to do those things. If you want to know the cost of the surgery or other details send me a PM. I will say that WSU was suprisingly affordable compared to the clinics here on the West side and they have great vets and people working over there. My brother's lab from the same litter as mine had the "older" surgery (basically synthetic legiment ) done on one knee (about $800 in Selah) and had TPLO surgery done on the other knee done at WSU last week.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: thinkingman on December 14, 2010, 09:39:18 AM: My dog had the synthetic ligament done at age 4. She had great quality of life for another 7-8 yrs after that.
I was more than pleased with the outcome.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on December 14, 2010, 09:57:33 AM: Thinkinngman, that is great to hear. I hope my brother's dog's synthetic repair lasts and allows her to do her thing for a long time. In clarifying my comments to the original poster, obviously a thorough exam of both knees should be done by a vet (maybe even a second or third vet that knows these types of injuries). My understanding is that the synthetic repair, because it does not change the structural problem of the knee joint a break is likely to occur. If the break occurs after 9 months to a year I think the scar tissue usually forms enough so that the joint does not slip out of place causing pain. If the dog doesn't make it to the 9-12 month point post op without breaking the synthetic repair, you are likely looking at another surgery. My brother went to a small town vet and got the synthetic surgery done for about $800. I think that it is probably $1200-1500 at larger clinics and on the West side of the mountains. The recovery for the synthetic seems to actually be a little tougher for some reason. So, with the risk of having to undergo another surgery at the same expense and having the recovery (which is time consuming and really sucks) multiple times if follow up surgery is required, I think the TPLO surgery is much better for a young, active, hunting dog, IF you can afford it. I paid $2500 for the first knee at WSU not counting the hotel and one set of follow up x-rays at 8 weeks post op. There are some structural differences in all dogs that may lead to a more likely successful result with the synthetic repair, my dog was not a good candidate for the synthetic repair so I opted to go TPLO and not worry about having to re-do the surgery. Again, good luck.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: high country on December 14, 2010, 10:11:09 AM: if you want it fixed right, there are board certified surgeons that do this daily. most vets do shots and scrapes and refer out the major surgeries because of the complexity and staff requirements. there is one clinic in spokane http://www.vssspokane.com/ (http://www.vssspokane.com/) that is my wifes truck right there ;) and another at wsu. not sure of the wetside. the clinic here gets stuff from the basin to butte, so that tells you how many surgeons are around. the surgical centers do not do anyting but surgery, and they are good at it.....expensive, yes, but if you knew how many botched fixes get sent to them on any month you would puke. imagine giving your vet 800 bux to set your dogs leg and then have it not take.....then get refered to a surgeon who has to go in and plate it after breaking it again. ask your vet if he has ever done or seen done, a hip transplant. can they do a ct, ultrasound?
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: jackelope on December 14, 2010, 10:40:24 AM: Quote from: high country on December 14, 2010, 10:11:09 AM
if you want it fixed right, there are board certified surgeons that do this daily. most vets do shots and scrapes and refer out the major surgeries because of the complexity and staff requirements. there is one clinic in spokane http://www.vssspokane.com/ (http://www.vssspokane.com/) that is my wifes truck right there ;) and another at wsu. not sure of the wetside. the clinic here gets stuff from the basin to butte, so that tells you how many surgeons are around. the surgical centers do not do anyting but surgery, and they are good at it.....expensive, yes, but if you knew how many botched fixes get sent to them on any month you would puke. imagine giving your vet 800 bux to set your dogs leg and then have it not take.....then get refered to a surgeon who has to go in and plate it after breaking it again. ask your vet if he has ever done or seen done, a hip transplant. can they do a ct, ultrasound?

There's a guy in Issaquah, maybe at the Alpine Vet Clinic, I can't remember for sure. That's who my vet refers to. I can't remember the Dr's name.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on December 14, 2010, 12:06:30 PM: Quote from: high country on December 14, 2010, 10:11:09 AM
if you want it fixed right, there are board certified surgeons that do this daily. most vets do shots and scrapes and refer out the major surgeries because of the complexity and staff requirements. there is one clinic in spokane http://www.vssspokane.com/ (http://www.vssspokane.com/) that is my wifes truck right there ;) and another at wsu. not sure of the wetside. the clinic here gets stuff from the basin to butte, so that tells you how many surgeons are around. the surgical centers do not do anyting but surgery, and they are good at it.....expensive, yes, but if you knew how many botched fixes get sent to them on any month you would puke. imagine giving your vet 800 bux to set your dogs leg and then have it not take.....then get refered to a surgeon who has to go in and plate it after breaking it again. ask your vet if he has ever done or seen done, a hip transplant. can they do a ct, ultrasound?
This touches on my point. If I want the best possible fix and can afford it (or more accurately justify the expense), I am going to trust it to a specialist and try to spend the money once for the right sugery instead of taking the chance on a failed surgery and having to pay it twice. Better to pay more once and go through one recovery period instead of paying less twice and having two recovery periods and the additional time and stress to the dog is a consideration as well.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on December 14, 2010, 12:09:42 PM: Also, I was considering the VSS Spokane clinic posted by high country but my vet referred me directly to WSU so that is where I went. I have heard good things about the VSS clinic posted too.

Hell, I made the cross state trip from North of Seattle to Pullman for the first surgery and am doing it again the end of the month so you gotta go where the technology and experience (and cost) work for you.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: cagifford on December 14, 2010, 01:25:55 PM: My lab had the synthetic chord repair on her right leg about 10 months ago and TPLO on her left leg 1 week ago today. I see the same improvment 1 week post op from tplo that took 3-4 weeks with they synthetic. If you saw my dog today you wouldn't believe she had surgery a week ago(except for 1/4 of her being hairless). A 8-10 year old lab I would think the synthetic would probably be ok but I might still go with TPLO because the recovery has been 100x easier on me and my dog. With either surgery the trick is to eliminate stair cimbing and really pretty much anything more than climbing 10 inches onto your bed if you are a guy who lets your dog on the furnature. A lab less than 7 or 8 years old lab I don't think I would consider the synthetic chord again unless it was impossible for me to come up with the money for TPLO(my dog is pain free on the chord repaired knee but there is some slipping of the joint). After the synthetic chord my dog couldn't jump onto the couch for about 14 weeks so she was locked up in my room with me sleeping on a matress on the floor for 14 weeks. TPLO she should have free house acess and stair climbing in as little as 8 weeks.

They also say that with TPLO a hunting dog can normally go back to normal "working" activity in 6 months.

Oh another thing WSU will be treat your dog better than the local hospital would treat you, a student is assigned to your dog and makes sure it gets everthing it needs and more.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: high country on December 14, 2010, 01:34:10 PM: both the vss and wsu have around the clock staff to monitor and feed/water your pet and the surgeons are very good. every dog will recover differently....age weight of dog and the owner effort make big differences. one thing is for sure, if you are going to have your own knee opened up, are you going to the surgeon or to the 1st care clinic at walgreens :twocents:
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 14, 2010, 01:36:35 PM: Yikes PNW, etc. Guess it's going around.
I just got the word from the Mrs that our 6yo Aussie Shepherd has been diagnosed with a partial tear to the CCL.
I have no doubt that she will opt for the surgery. I'm pretty sure she went to a specialist in Kirkland on a referral from the vet here in Bellingham.
Looks like $4,000 bill headed our way.
Open for suggestions on 2nd opinions in the Puget Sound area.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2010, 01:37:13 PM: I used the vet in Issaquah for my lab, wasnt cheap, bout 26 or 2800. she was only 2 when she blew her knee out on a hunting trip so i wasnt gunna let her limp around for 10 years. I would say she was 95% after the surgery and to this day (shes 6 now). Its a pretty intense surgery and you need to plan on having somebody around for a couple of months afterwards to keep an eye on the dog while it heals.....glad I did it, so is she :)
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 14, 2010, 01:38:43 PM: Lewy, which vet?
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2010, 01:45:15 PM: Drawing a blank at the moment, will look it up and post. The clinic is just on the south side of I-90 in Issaquah
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: lewy on December 14, 2010, 01:49:53 PM: Dr. Fry did the surgery. His clinic is 660 nw gilman boulevard Issaquah
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 14, 2010, 01:51:21 PM: Thank You!!! :)
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 14, 2010, 02:11:45 PM: This is where the Mrs took our dog for the consultation on the referral. http://www.pugetsoundanimalhospital.com/ (http://www.pugetsoundanimalhospital.com/)
Anybody know of them?
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 14, 2010, 03:19:11 PM: Quote from: jackelope on December 14, 2010, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: high country on December 14, 2010, 10:11:09 AM
if you want it fixed right, there are board certified surgeons that do this daily. most vets do shots and scrapes and refer out the major surgeries because of the complexity and staff requirements. there is one clinic in spokane http://www.vssspokane.com/ (http://www.vssspokane.com/) that is my wifes truck right there ;) and another at wsu. not sure of the wetside. the clinic here gets stuff from the basin to butte, so that tells you how many surgeons are around. the surgical centers do not do anyting but surgery, and they are good at it.....expensive, yes, but if you knew how many botched fixes get sent to them on any month you would puke. imagine giving your vet 800 bux to set your dogs leg and then have it not take.....then get refered to a surgeon who has to go in and plate it after breaking it again. ask your vet if he has ever done or seen done, a hip transplant. can they do a ct, ultrasound?

There's a guy in Issaquah, maybe at the Alpine Vet Clinic, I can't remember for sure. That's who my vet refers to. I can't remember the Dr's name.

$$$$$
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: PNWsportsman on December 14, 2010, 07:07:12 PM: As I understand CCL tears are very common in labs. My lab is 4, extremely active, and in good shape. She started limping after hunting in ten degree weather (seems to me it would be easier to tear something when its really cold.)

I have a good friend who is a vet. I mentioned to her my dog was limping. She immediately asked it it was the hind leg, and told me I needed to have her checked out soon. I still havent taken her in but intend to shortly.

WSU would be an option for me so I will look into it.

Thanks for the info
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on December 14, 2010, 08:45:48 PM: PNW and 6x6, I would highly reccomend the VCA Specialty Center in Lynnwood (not the regular VCA clinic) . I would reccomend Dr. Amy Little at the VCA Specialty Center. She did not do my dog's surgery but she and her staff took the post op x-rays and they were very nice, knowledgable, professional, explained things to us, showed us the x-rays, and she was one the local vet that we were referred to if we wanted to do the surgery local. They were also able to take the post op x-rays without sedating my dog which shocked the hell out of me because she is pretty high strung when at the vet but they got 'er done and saved me $100+ on the anesthesia.

They have also helped us through the unfortunate need to euthenise our 15 year old cocker beagle mix and 18 year old cat this year and were very compassionate and provided top notch care for those pets in their final days. They are spendy but I think their rates are comperable to other West side surgery centers. The TPLO surgery quote I got was in the $3700 price range while WSU charged me $2580.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 20, 2010, 02:41:40 PM: Thanks YellowDog. The Mrs did chat with VCA in Lynnwood. Seems as she has spent a ton of time talking with vets all over the PNW and beyond.

She is leaning at using this guy http://jeffmayodvm.com/default.aspx (http://jeffmayodvm.com/default.aspx) after our call to him, for a couple of reasons:
Because he comes to your vet and performs the procedure as an experience for your clinic to participate in.
He firmly believes in the same form of initial re-hab that is so common with humans meaning send them home ASAP after surgery to get them back to a comfortable environment. Same day surgery and go home that afternoon.
Sure, cost is a part of it. He charges $1,400 to perform his part, the TPLO. This does not include the facility cost at your vet office.

The facility cost is where we have an "in" sort of. Since our dog's vet declined to have the procedure performed at their office, we opted to go to our large animal vet who works with our horses and our non-profit horse rescue's horses also. They are so intrigued by this opportunity to be a part of this, administer aid, support the surgeon and be a part of a learning experience, they are going to open up their facility for cost and without mark-up for the surgery.

I encourage any of you who have to go through with this with your dog to at least take the time and give Jeff a call. Very nice guy and is willing to take the time to discuss your any question and readily volunteer any information he has with you.

If we do indeed go with Jeff, I will report back further with more detail leading up to the surgery, the day, and then post op.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: 6x6in6 on January 05, 2011, 11:03:23 AM: Just to update......
Surgery is scheduled for this Friday and the vet clinic's estimate to support the surgeon in his work ranges from $750 to $1,200.
And yes, DVM Jeff Mayo is going to perform the procedure.
Title: Re: Labrador retriever CCL injuries?
Post by: YellowDog on January 21, 2011, 09:20:28 AM: Hey 6x6, how is your pup? Do you mind updating us on the final cost with the surgery center charges? Was your dod weight bearing right away?
My pup had her second knee done on December 30 so she is just over 3 weeks post op and is doing great. Can't wait until the 8 week point to get the follow up x-rays to confirm everything is set and healing correctly.