Post by: Rob on December 13, 2010, 06:00:47 PM
My goals for this thread will be:
1. Provide insights to those who may want to do a similar thread
2. Document the planning process as it progresses
3. Provide Lessons learned to others.
4. Obtain insights, recommendations and opinions from the hunting community at large.
I want this to be a positive thread, so I'll not suffer negativity and won't dignify such comments/rants with a response. I will however welcome and encourage opinions, insights, comments, and questions anyone might have that are constructive in nature.
So to kick this topic off, some background.
I did my first Safari back in 2007. My Dad, a good buddy of mine, and his Dad went to Namibia for a plains game hunt (Plains Game is a generic term for hunting antelope, warthogs, etc. Generally anything that wont try to kill you while you sleep). To sum it up, it was the best hunt I have ever been on. I describe hunting Africa as follows:
Imagine you are hunting trophy Mule deer in an area where you see so many massive Mulies that you are having a hard time deciding which one to shoot. While you are pondering this, an enormous elk of a life time walks by. Your Guide (called a professional hunter or PH) asks you if you would like to shoot that elk to which you respond, why yes yes I would like to shoot that Elk. Bang!
A typical afternoon of hunting would find us encountering 4-8 different species of game. It would be unusual to not see at least 2-3 trophy class animals worthy of shooting on any given day.
I have written a robust photo illustrated journal that I am more than willing to share with anyone who would like to see it. Just drop me a PM.
Based on the fantastic trip of 2007, I am now ready to go back and drag as many of my buddies with me as possible. So far I have one person who has committed, and 3-4 others on the fence. Assuming there is interest, I'll continue to share the journey in this thread over the next year and a half. Thanks!
Post by: Rob on December 13, 2010, 06:02:43 PM
There are 1,000 different possibilities, but for a plains game hunt, I am using a planning number of about 12-13K plus dip/ship and taxidermy costs. This is based on the following assumptions:
1. 3,000 in airfare
2. 3,300 in PH Fees (10 day hunt that covers guide, trackers, lodging, food, VAT, transport/airport pickup, trophy delivery to dip/ship facilities, etc)
3. 4,500 in Trophy fees (typical 7 animal package of Impala, Kudu, warthog, Gemsbok, Steenbok, Springbok and blesbok)
4. 750 in tips
5. 1K in extras
I don't want to trivialize the costs. This is a lot of cash, and a lot of folks drop out right there. But let's put this in perspective. A trophy rifle elk hunt in the rut in a place like NM, CO or MT can run 8K. Add in license and transportation and you are over 9K-probalby closer to 10. You walk away with a single Elk. For a few thousand more, you can go to AFRICA and come shoot 7 animals on a 10 day hunt. To me this seems worth it. Also consider that this will be paid out over the course of a year or more. I expect us to need to come up with the following:
1. Deposit of 2K in the Feb/March of 2011
2. Airfare of 3K in Lat 2011 to early 2012
3. Balance due during trip (Planning on August of 2012)
I am not swimming in extra cash by any means, so the long lead time allows me the ability to save up for the trip and pay it out in installments.
I think thats all I have time to publish today. Ill flesh out our thinking on trip criteria, in the upcoming days.
Post by: boneaddict on December 13, 2010, 07:13:26 PM
Post by: rougheye on December 13, 2010, 07:19:00 PM
Post by: ribka on December 13, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
Thanks for sharing
Post by: Hyde on December 13, 2010, 09:33:18 PM
Post by: Rob on December 14, 2010, 08:54:52 AM
"When I went to the Dallas SCI show I sat at the table with some older guys. I told them I was planning my first African trip. One of the older men looked at me and said, here is the best advice anyone can give you regarding hunting Africa. Don't go. You will spend the rest of your days trying to figure out how to get back"
Truer words have never been spoken. There is something about the land there. It is vast, big and wild. It c alls you to come back.
So here I am, planning to scrape enough together to return. I hope to be able to go every 3-5 years going forward.
There are many great Bow hunts Ribka. African Twilight Safaris in Namibia is who we hunted with before and they have done them in the past. They would be an excellent choice. I think it would be good to find an outfit that specializes in bow hunts if that is your focus. Namibia is wide open country so it might be harder than a place like Zimbabwe which is flatter and more forested. The Dallas or Reno SCI show is an excellent resource to meet the PH’s and get a feel for how the hunts work.
Regarding where we are going, what we are targeting, etc. We are truly at the beginning of the planning process so we don’t have that defined yet. Our group is in the process of working that out. Here is what I know thus far:
1. Focus of the trip: There are two potential focus’s for the folks on the safari. For the folks where this is their first Safari, I am highly recommending they focus on plains game. Fast action, high success, amazing trophies. I would like to go for either Buffalo or Leopard. My dad may come along and if so, he wants to go Buffalo. The ideal outfitter would be one that can run concurrent plains game and dangerous game hunts (AKA “DG” hunts). I really want my dad to go, so I will be looking at buffalo hunts that offer excellent plains game opportunities.
2. Price is an issue. I can’t be dropping 20K on a buffalo. I’d like to keep the trip to under 12K for a buff hunt (outfitter and trophy fees) and 3-4K for plains game (not including trophy fees.
3. Duration: I think if you are going to Africa, a 10 day hunt is a good time frame. My buddies may want to do more like 7. Most DG hunts are 10-14 day minimums. I foresee us potentially arriving or leaving in waves depending on what kind of hunts we choose.
4. Safety is important. Need to have a hunt that we feel like we won’t get taken hostage, our firearms won’t be stolen, we won’t get mugged, etc. This is after all a third world continent for the most part!
5. Targeted animals: So far, the plains game folks have indicated they want to target Kudu, Gemsbok (AKA Oryx), Springbok, Warthog, and Eland. As I said, as a primary animal, my first choice would be Buff or Leopard but Croc or Hippo would be pretty cool as fall backs animals. I am also interested in a place that would allow me to pick out 2 or 3 of any of the following: Nyala, Waterbuck, Burchell Zebra, Bushbuck. And if we could find a place that had Lord Derby Eland, I’d be ALL OVER that…
6. Fences. Free range Africa is harder and harder to find. I understand it is more or less non-existent in South Africa. Namibia is better. No idea what Zimbabwe is like. I am in no way interested in hunting a 500 acre high fence-I personally have ethical issues with that. For that matter, I am not really interested in hunting a 20 or 30K acre high fence – not so much from ethical considerations, but just because it does not seem as wild to me. The Save conservatory in Zimbabwe I am told is a one million acre high fence that has several outfitters hunting it. I have no issue hunting a 1 million acre high fence. In Namibia we hunted 4 different camps-three were free range and one was a high fence. It was however a 40K acre high fence and was extremely fair chase in my mind. We tried very hard to get a Wildebeest for my dad in that high fence area and even though we saw several herds were unable to get a shot that was less than 600 yards so we had to pass. That said I’d like to find a place that if it has a high fence, is at least 75K to 100K acres.
7. Accommodations and Extra activities. The group has mixed requirements for this one. I only want to hunt and I am happy spending 10 days in a two man tent out in the African Bush if the hunting is good. One of my buddies is bringing his wife and she is not interested in spending any time in tents. She also wants good food and some things to do if she chooses not to hunt for a day. I need to nail down what kinds of things she wants to do while we are hunting so I can have that in my mind as we select locations to hunt. I think my buddy and his wife will probably plan a side trip prior or after the hunt as well so that will help. My dad and I went to Cape Town after our 2007 hunt and went cage diving with great white sharks. That was simply fantastic!
So to sum it up, the outfitter we choose needs to offer quality concurrent plains game and DG hunts, be in a safe country, offer hunts in a no fence or 75-100K minimum high fence area, and offer quality accommodations/food with some options for extra activities for my buddies wife to do while we are hunting. And all this needs to be at a reasonable price!
Piece of cake!
Post by: Austrian Hunter on December 14, 2010, 03:12:51 PM
PM Sent
Post by: Rob on December 14, 2010, 03:25:39 PM
I really enjoyed writting it. it is quite long though.
Post by: Austrian Hunter on December 14, 2010, 06:56:38 PM
Post by: Rob on December 14, 2010, 07:20:47 PM
It ends oddly as I did not finish the portion about the taxidermy after we got home... It was a bit of a debacle.. here is the thread on my shipment:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28056.msg324359.html#msg324359 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28056.msg324359.html#msg324359)
Charlie (AKA Bucklucky) did a great job fixing up my zebra and kudu mounts....
And here are the links to the finished mounts.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28448.msg330126.html#msg330126 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28448.msg330126.html#msg330126)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28339.msg330070.html#msg330070 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28339.msg330070.html#msg330070)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28340.msg328404.html#msg328404 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28340.msg328404.html#msg328404)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28642.msg332625.html#msg332625 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,28642.msg332625.html#msg332625)
Post by: bucklucky on December 15, 2010, 09:21:06 AM
Great idea on the write up . Its something I will be doing in the future .
Post by: chrisb on December 15, 2010, 09:33:13 AM
Post by: Rob on December 15, 2010, 10:06:20 AM
I just booked my trip to the Safari Club International show in Reno. I went in 2008 and I must say, it is a fantastic experience. I believe the Reno show is the largest one in the world. Last time I went, I was there for 3 days. It was not enough time to see everything they have to offer. The show fills the entire Reno Convention Center. Actually, the show fills more than the convention center as it overflows into tents they put up in the parking lot.
They have the top names from the hunting community fly in and many of them give seminars. Last time I was there I saw a presentation on hunting Leopards by Craig Boddington, a Survival seminar that was pretty good, a plains game seminar put on by one of the government agencies from Namibia, and a State of California Game and Fish presentation regarding efforts they have in place to provide watering holes for the sheep and deer in the southern portion of the state that was quite interesting. Last year George W Bush was the keynote speaker, and this year Sarah Palin will be the Keynote (they are sold out though and I am bummed!).
In addition to great speakers and excellent seminars on hunting, this, they also have what must be thousands of outfitters from all over the world and taxidermy displays that are out of this world. If you go to the dinners, you get a chance to sit at dinner tables and talk hunting with other hunters. I had a great time chatting with the guys ant my table, and was able to get a lot of first hand info from them on the trips they plan. Like I said, I was there from dawn to dusk for 3 days and was unable to see everything I wanted to see last time I was there. Picture the Puyallup sportsman show hopped up on Mt. Dew, Steroids and crack and you will begin to get a picture of what this event is like. It is a great time.
This year, I am on a budget and a mission. I am only going to be there for half a day on Friday, and a full day on Saturday (Jan 28th and 29th 2011). Because I am forging new ground, I feel it is important to meet the outfitters face to face and get a feel for how they run hunts. While I can do this to an extent over e-mail, the nuances of language barriers (even though they speak English) often makes it hard to communicate over mail. And lets face it, nothing beats meeting a guide face to face.
I intend to walk in with a list of questions based on the requirements listed above, interview a group of guides that I have pre-selected, meet new guides and interview them, and walk away with:
1. A target country that will meet our needs
2. A region within that country that will meet our needs
3. A short list of outfitters who I trust and meet the requirements of our party.
I will then take all this info back to my buddies and we will decide on an outfitter. The goal is to book the trip with a deposit in March of 2011 for a trip that is in August of 2012.
Here are some photos from the last trip I took to the SCI show. (also as an aside, a quick story. I was walking through the exhibits on one of the days in 2008 and I heard a murmur moving through the crowd. I turned around to see a burly guy walking by in a full body white leotard and a tutu. On his chest in huge pink letters were the words My brother is a better elephant hunter than I am. I wish I had grabbed a photo of that!)
Post by: Rob on December 15, 2010, 12:08:16 PM
1. I had some concerns about hunting Zimbabwe so I started this thread on the AR forum last week. General opinion seems to be go for it, but be aware that elections next year could throw things into a tailspin.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/9581055541 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/9581055541)
2. I posted this today to help me get some insight's on what countries I should focus my research on.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=518103&f=1411043&m=8981049541&r=8981049541#8981049541 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=518103&f=1411043&m=8981049541&r=8981049541#8981049541)
Post by: rougheye on December 15, 2010, 12:16:20 PM
Post by: Rob on December 16, 2010, 08:27:36 AM
Wow yesterday was a busy day. I had to stay at work an extra 3 hours to make sure nothing dropped due to the time I spent trying to keep up on all the info about Africa. The thread I started over on AR was honestly pretty discouraging. In short:
1. My list of requirements is too varied
2. Friendships will be destroyed if we try to meet all these needs
3. We should split up and go our separate ways and connect after the hunt
4. Having one wife present on the trip will be awkward (I guess they run better in pairs??)
5. Desert animals like Oryx are hard to mix in with other plains game species
BUT I received private messages from at least 5 folks. Everyone of them said that we need to go focus on the Save (pronounced Sauve-eh) in Zimbabwe. We would need to pull Gembok from the list and replace Cape eland with Livingston Eland, but other than that, it will meet our split hunting needs. I spent an hour on the phone with a guy who sets up folks to hunt the Save at the end of the day and Im feeling pretty good about the whole deal. I have an appointment to meet him in Reno to talk further.
More later, but I think I have line of sight on a country and a region within that country for us to target!
Post by: chrisb on December 16, 2010, 01:48:22 PM
Post by: Rob on December 16, 2010, 04:07:23 PM
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums)
Post by: wa.hunter on December 17, 2010, 08:49:13 AM
Post by: ThePascoKid on December 17, 2010, 09:59:43 AM
Post by: twinners on December 17, 2010, 10:16:35 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on December 17, 2010, 11:01:19 AM
Post by: arees on December 17, 2010, 11:59:00 AM
This will be a good reference for people thinking of going. I booked the first hunt without much prior research but still had a great time. It was a plains game management hunt in Zimbabwe which made it relativly inexpensive. It meant we could shoot lots of animals, but it would cost extra to shoot big ones or take the trophies home. In the end I dropped the extra cash for a couple of trophies, but it is good to know that there are many different ways to reduce costs and still get the experience.
Taxidermy can add a lot to the costs of the trip so I usually just do skull mounts and spend the savings on more trophy fees...except the sable from my last trip. Some things are worth the extra cost.
Post by: Rob on December 17, 2010, 03:27:22 PM
-no high fence
-DG and PG opportunities
-a place my buddies wife will be happy
I will say, that the trips offered end up going for a total steal! I saw a 4 hunter trip with 3-4 animal trophies go for $2,000 at the National Turkey Federation dinner in Puyallup a while back. who can pass up a 500 dollar trip to Africa!!
Taxidermy can indeed double the trip. My taxidermy bill in 2008 was close to 9K. but I did:
-a habitat display with a a full bodied mount on a warthog, meerkat, steenbok and guinea fowl (my tribute to Walt Disney )
-a pedestal mount of a kudu
-a pedestal mount of a zebra
-A wall pedestal mount of an impala
-traditional shoulder mounts of my gemsbok, springbok and hartebeest.
-had the skin tanned of my ostrich to have it ready to be mounted at a later date
The nice thing about the way they treat the skulls in camp, they are pretty much ready to go for European mounts when they come back. Here is a photo of my zebra and meerkat skulls. They came over this way from Africa the taxidermist and I did nothing to them so other than the dip and ship costs, and shipping, I paid no taxidermy fees for them.
I warned all my buddies Africa is addictive and like no other place on earth. The outfitter I spoke with earlier summed it up. There is nothing like being out in the bush tracking a kudu only to come around the corner 20 yards away from an elephant.
Namibia did not have elephants, rhinos, lions, hippos, crocs, etc. So while the hunt was just amazing, I did not get to see that aspect of it.
I cant wait to go to a place with all those classic animals running around wild!
Pasco kid you are going to have a great time!
Post by: steen on December 17, 2010, 03:45:54 PM
Post by: runamuk on December 17, 2010, 03:52:01 PM
Post by: BlackRidge on December 17, 2010, 05:55:29 PM
Just out of curiosity, do you have any interest in going after any of the 'Big 5' out there? Seems like the next logical step
Thanks for keeping us posted!!
Post by: sakoshooter on December 19, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
Post by: Rob on December 20, 2010, 08:36:52 AM
If you are looking for an outfitter our taxidermist has been quite a few times. Wildlife Art is his business name up in Whatcom Co. Gives you another option. I sat in the outfitter's sales pitch but can't remember all the fees. We figured 20K for the two of us. At least I know it is a safe outfitter.
Thanks! I feel I must either meet with the folks I plan to go with, or get a solid recommendation from someone I know who has used the outfitter so I'll keep this in my back pocket and if I don't get warm fuzzies after Reno, I'll reach out.
Regarding the big 5 (Leopard, Buffalo, Lion, Rhino, Elephant) or dangerous 6 (add hippo to the big 5):
-A great group of animals to be sure.
-I am in no financial position to pay for the Elephant, and especially the rhino hunt.
-I always said I was not really interested in cats but I am finding that changing for me. I now know I would not pass on a Cougar, and I am liking the idea of leopard more and more. Enough so that if Buff does not work out, I'll probably hunt Leopard instead. Lions on the other hand are not big on my list. Finding a good lion that was not pen raised and released at a reasonable price is quite difficult. Those that are excellent trophies are sky high price wise.
-I do want a buff!
-Hippo would be totally cool as would Croc...
So in short, someday perhaps, but for now I have more than enough to keep me occupied in Africa so I'll pick and choose based on price and opportunity.
With regard to tip, it is a 10 day trip. I calculated it based roughly on 10% of the daily rate plus trophy fees (Daily Rate estimate of 3,300 and a guess of 4,500 for trophy fees). The tip is split between the cook, guide and trackers.
Post by: chrisb on December 20, 2010, 09:20:36 AM
Post by: Rob on December 20, 2010, 09:57:01 AM
Oh that we could bring it home! It is illegal (at least in Namibia and I assume the other countries as well) to export the meat. That said, nothing is wasted and all the meat goes to market. Infact, in Namibia, if you wound and animals and are unable to recover it, you are actually charged a fee (usually the trophy fee plus 50%) to offset the money they loose when they sell it. I think as an effort to protect the game, they want to keep the hunting set up as sport hunting, and avoid commercializing the harvest-at least on an international scale.
I know when an elephant is shot it is not uncommon to have an entire villiage come out and participate in the filed dressing of the animal. I have seen photos of villagers lined up 20 deep with buckets and bags. The cut off chunks of meat to take home with them and feed their families. pretty cool actually.
Post by: chrisb on December 20, 2010, 10:56:50 AM
Oh the meat is soooooo good. I have never had better meat than a good Eland steak...
Oh that we could bring it home! It is illegal (at least in Namibia and I assume the other countries as well) to export the meat. That said, nothing is wasted and all the meat goes to market. Infact, in Namibia, if you wound and animals and are unable to recover it, you are actually charged a fee (usually the trophy fee plus 50%) to offset the money they loose when they sell it. I think as an effort to protect the game, they want to keep the hunting set up as sport hunting, and avoid commercializing the harvest-at least on an international scale.
I know when an elephant is shot it is not uncommon to have an entire villiage come out and participate in the filed dressing of the animal. I have seen photos of villagers lined up 20 deep with buckets and bags. The cut off chunks of meat to take home with them and feed their families. pretty cool actually.
Very cool
Post by: Rob on December 27, 2010, 09:38:52 AM
I am pretty sure I will be targeting Buffalo on this trip. Since the largest rifle I have is a 338 WM and the starting legal min in most countries is 375 H&H, I will need to look for a new rifle (I am SOOOOO upset!)
I started by looking at the ballistic data on http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/ballistic-tables/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/ballistic-tables/) I pulled down and pasted into Excel some of the more popular 400 cal big bore rifles.
Most Buff shots are taken between 20 and 80 yards so I am not too concerned with finding a flat shooting rifle. I am more concerned with energy. Based on this, I created a pivot table that averaged energy at the muzzle, 100 and 200 yards, and grouped it by bullet weight and cartridge. Then I created a chart so I could see the data better.
My conclusion is that they are all pretty good. The 416 Dakota and 450 Dakota stand out as being a bit better overall, but honestly, I think any of the cartridges will work just fine. I lean towards the 416 Rigby or the 458 Win just because they are more common and should I find myself without ammo due to lost luggage in Africa, I would guess that I am more likely to be able to locate such ammo locally.
Cost of ammo stateside is not really a consideration as I plan to reload.
I really would like to get a nice double for this trip, but I think those are well out of my price range. I am targeting to keep the cost of the rifle, sans optics, to between 1,000 and 2,000 dollars.
If I go bolt, then I want a controlled round feeding bolt. I do not want a single shot rifle.
I am looking over the CZ 550 Safari rifles and they seem to be pretty good. CZ has a great reputation with their rifles, and the price is right. I cross posted this and will see what comes from there.
I welcome any feedback or suggestions if anyone has any ideas. I plan to purchase this after I book my trip in March (unless a steal of a deal comes along!)
Post by: Rob on December 27, 2010, 06:19:59 PM
As mentioned before, I think our best bet is to go to Zimbabwe and hunt the Save Conservancy.
Some history on the Save:
The Save Conservatory is an area of about 1 million acres. It use to be used for cattle farming and was owned by a group of 18 ranchers. While it was being used for cattle ranching, the ranchers tried to eliminate the big cats and elephants so their cattle could thrive, however when they decided to make it a conservancy, the 18 ranchers combined their properties, removed all the internal high fences and placed them instead around the perimeter, and began transplanting elephants back into the region. The cats of course also returned in large numbers. Now the Save is a massive hunting area with loads of wild game both dangerous game like the big five (Lion, Leopard, Buffalo, Rino and Elephant), crocodile and hippo (crocs and hippo are not as prevalent due to the lack of large rivers) as well as a huge assortment of Plains game (Kudu, sable, eland, Warthog, zebra, Nyala, Giraffe, Klipspringer, impala, bushbuck, etc). It should be noted that desert animals such as Gemsbok, and steenbok are not found in the Save.
The Save is attractive to our party as it offers excellent trophy plains game, as well as excellent Buffalo and/or Leopard hunting. It is one of only a couple areas that will meet all our needs.
Mokore Safaris
Our outfitter has recommended that we book our trip with Mokore safaris in the Save. http://mokoresafaris.com/. (http://mokoresafaris.com/.) Mokore offers us a 60,000 acre unfenced hunting area to explore. If we have 4 hunters, he believes we can get the entire camp dedicated to our party which will be a bonus. This will need to be discussed further to make sure that is a reality for us. I like the idea of having the camp dedicated to our party.
Duration:
I feel pretty strongly that to really gain the full African Safari experience, a minimum of 10 days is needed. However I understand that not everyone wants to spend a full 10 days in the bush so we may need to arrange differing departure or arrival days. We can work those details out later. For the Buff hunt, a 10 day hunt is the minimum. Plains game hunts of 7 or 10 days would be good-but you already know my bias.
Transportation
To get to the Save, we would fly from the States to Johannesburg South Africa, and then transfer to a second plane and go to Harare, the capital of Zimbabwe. We would be met at the gate when we land in Jo-Berg and personally assisted through the somewhat arduous South African customs process. Having been through it before, it is not a walk in the park, but not impossible to navigate-especially with assistance.
Depending on connections we will either head directly to Harare, or stay the night in Jo-Berg. Once in Harare we will again be met at the gate and escorted through customs and taken to cars that will transport us to the camp. It will be a 5 hour car drive to the camp. The cost to transport us to the camp is 500 per vehicle each way.
Time of year:
After talking to the outfitter, I think we should shoot for Late September for our target date. August is OK, but the more you push out into September/October, the more the water dries up and the more concentrated the game is. So the later you wait, the better the hunting.
Rates:
Assumption: this is the 2011 price list so I am assuming we can lock in at these rates for a 2012 hunt. This needs to be confirmed.
The rates for this camp are:
Plains game: 500 per day per person. 2 people per Guide (AKA Professional Hunter or PH). So for a 7 day hunt, 3,500. 5,000 for a 10 day hunt. Observer fee is 200 per day on top of these rates.
Buffalo: 1,100 per person per day. One person per PH. Trophy fee is 2,800. A successful 10 day hunt would run $13,800.
Leopard: 950 per day for a 15 day duration and a 3,750 trophy fee. A successful 15 day hunt would run 18,000
Deposits:
Deposits are paid in 3 phases (I am assuming 10 day hunts without the observer fee, you can do the math for different combos as needed):
First payment: 25% of daily rate would be due on booking. I want to book in March of 2011.
1,250 for Plains game
2,750 for Buffalo
3,600 for Leopard
Second payment: 25% due one year out from trip date. So Late September 2011
1,250 for Plains game
2,750 for Buffalo
3,600 for Leopard
Final payment: Balance of 50% is due 90 days for Departure date so late June 2012
2,500 for Plains game
5,500 for Buffalo
7,050 for Leopard
It is recommended that we pay for all or most of our expected trophy fees before leaving the states. Upon conclusion of the hunt, the stateside outfitter would transfer the money to the PH. The reason this is attractive is that it avoids us needing to carry large sums of money with us on our trip. I really like this idea myself.
Post by: ribka on December 27, 2010, 06:36:33 PM
Thanks for informative articles. I hope to make it over there in the next few years with the wife
Post by: chrisb on December 27, 2010, 10:37:09 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 27, 2010, 11:23:34 PM
I am afraid to get started on Africa at this time, especially with the current economy. But reading your thread makes me look to the future and wonder when I will be able to start working on Africa. :chuckle:
Just as you said it is addictive, I don't know anyone that has been satisfied with 1 trip, everyone goes back again and again. Good luck, I hope you have an awesome trip and I look forward to reading all about it in this thread. :tup:
Post by: Rob on December 28, 2010, 12:59:11 PM
I have a lead on a pretty good deal for a 450 Dakota in a CZ 550. My major concern with a 450 Dakota is that if I loose my bags/ammo enroute, it will be very difficult to find any shells in Africa so I am mulling it over. I may get a 375 H&H as well and bring it with me as my second firearm. Finding 375 H&H ammo is pretty easy as that round is more or less the "30.06 of Africa". It will work just fine on smaller animals if I load up some solids, and will still be legal for use on Buffalo should something happen to my ammo. That precludes me from bringing my 12 gauge though... Lots of time to think that one through though.
Glad folks are enjoying the thread. It is helping me out as well. The best advice I can give regarding Africa is is still don't go! It really does become an obsession. Gets in your blood and you can't shake it. Was talking to the outfitter last night and he was talking about how it is probable that you will be walking through the brush on a stalk and end up having to high tail it out of an area as fast as you can because you stumble upon a rhino or a group of agitated Elephants... And they will be 20-40 yards away before you see them! Can't wait.
Post by: chrisb on December 28, 2010, 02:01:19 PM
Post by: ThePascoKid on December 28, 2010, 02:08:35 PM
Post by: bow4elk on December 28, 2010, 03:33:12 PM
Thanks Rob . For some reasons African game doesnt get my blood going but i have a feeling you will change my mind ;) Looking forward to learning more
rougheye, the African bushveld is something to behold. The birdlife alone is nothing short of unreal and the sounds will never leave your memory. It's an experience in its entirety vs. just shooting a pile of animals. As Rob mentioned, you see so much game there's never a dull moment. Even for non-hunting family members or a spouse, it's an incredible vacation. I had just as much fun stalking game with a tripod as I did with my bow. Although there was a top end Kudu that still haunts me. My PH said the stalk couldn't be done. He sat back as I slipped into 30 yards on an enormous bull. As I anchored and began to settle my pin, he winded me and, like our elk, spun out of there in a split second. Still hurts :chuckle:
As for hunting tactics, I'm not a huge fan of sitting waterholes day in, day out but that's pretty much how most plains game outfitters are set up. We actually packed treestands in our luggage and I opted to put mine up off the waterholes to change it up a bit. And I did a lot of spot and stalk hunting alone, which is something you must first negotiate with your outfitter and PH BEFORE you book a trip. When I went in '95 South Africa had received a 100-year record-breaking rainfall, which hurt my video work and hunting badly. I still got a ton of good sellable footage and managed a couple critters anyway, but none of that mattered. The memory of it all will get me back there again someday, hopefully with my whole family.
Post by: Rob on December 28, 2010, 04:14:50 PM
1. We brought all our ammo in both factory boxes, and hard case boxes for reloads. I am not sure what the "rule" is, but the practice is, have it in boxes made to handle Ammo. If you want factory boxes, I am sure you can ask your buddies here on Hunt Wa if they have any empty ammo boxes for the caliber you will be shooting they would donate to your cause!
2. If you have not already, I CANNOT emphasis enough that you should use an expeditor like www.riflepermits.com (http://www.riflepermits.com) to get all the paperwork done to clear customs. They were a huge asset. Not only did they help us get our rifles through customs, but when our connection was tight, they stayed with us and helped us get to the front of the security line, skipping about 45 min of queue time!
3. Make sure you have a US Border Patrol form 4457 filled out for firearms registration. This proves you left the US with the firearm. As I recall, we needed this on the reentry side in the USA.
4. Do not bring ammo through customs in calibers that do not match the guns in your possession. i.e. don’t carry ammo for your guide for a gun you don’t have with you, or ammo for your traveling companion unless you are both shooting the same caliber.
If you have not already booked travel, or made arrangements, then I would reach out to Kathi Climes of Wild Travel. She specializes in arranging travel for hunting safaris and knows all there is to know about bringing guns in and out of the different countries all across the world as well as a whole slew of other hunting travel related topics (what supplies to bring, what to expect at customs, what medications are needed, thoughts on shots, etc). She is a very active poster on the Accurate reloading forum. We used her to arrange our travel to Namibia and she was GREAT. It is a good idea to check what I said with her anyway as my info was from 2007 and things may have changed.
Even if you just have general questions, I am sure that she will be more than happy to offer assistance. and if you have general questions she is more than happy to offer assistance. Can’t say enough good things about Kathi.
Her e-mail is kathi@wildtravel.net, or Log into http://forums.accuratereloading.com (http://forums.accuratereloading.com) and shoot a PM to Kathie (her profile is at this link: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/personal?x_myspace_page=profile&u=1591071 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/personal?x_myspace_page=profile&u=1591071))
Post by: Rob on December 28, 2010, 04:16:34 PM
It's an experience in its entirety vs. just shooting a pile of animals.
exactly...
Post by: arees on December 28, 2010, 04:56:51 PM
I used riflepermits.com for my last transit through Joberg and had no problems. I buddy left his ammo off his forms and had to pay an on-the-spot $20 expiditing fee to get his permit. I think it is better to get the paperwork done right up front.
Post by: ThePascoKid on December 28, 2010, 07:33:50 PM
Post by: Rob on January 03, 2011, 03:23:01 PM
Post by: Rob on January 03, 2011, 04:05:41 PM
The rifle is a CZ 550 Safari Magnum chambered in 450 Dakota. More than I need power wise, but what the heck...
I drove to Pendleton on Sunday to meet the seller. She (the rifle) came with the reloading dies, 123 rounds of empty brass, 2 loaded rounds, one dummy round, and a Leopold VX3 1.5-5x20 scope. She is an African veteran, and I am her third owner. She has taken two buffalo, a lion and an elephant between the two prior owners. I guess she put a hole clean through the head of the elephant and dropped it in its tracks.
I stopped off in the Umtanum on the way home and fired one of the two rounds off. The kick is significant, but quite manageable. It has a set trigger which is very nice as it allows me the option of a 3 pound trigger or a 1.5 pound trigger (or something like that). You can see in the photo below that while big, the shells are not massive. The shell on the left is the 450 Dakota with a 500 grain Barnes Solid. The one on the right is a 338 win mag with a hornady soft tip of some kind.
Loaded cartridges seem to run between 7.50 and 12 bucks a shell so for my budget, reloading is a must! I think I can reload for about 2 bucks a shot. I am ordering up bullets, shell plates, and other specialized loading knickknacks needed to load up the .458 shells. It is based on a 416 Rigby shell and the 458 cal bullets are common so that is good. Nothing else about this cartridge is common or easy to find which is my one major concern with my selection. if my ammo gets lost in transit on the way to Africa, I'll never be able to buy ammo for it in Africa. My back up for that is to pick up a 375 H&H sometime in the next year and bring that as my second firearm. Time will tell if I made a wise choice!
Post by: Rob on January 04, 2011, 08:45:33 AM
Post by: Rob on January 04, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
Post by: markts on January 04, 2011, 04:10:59 PM
Post by: Kuduman on January 04, 2011, 04:52:53 PM
Great info and very detailed.
I would add that perspective clients look at the advantages of "Package Hunts" I took a kudu, blesbok, Gemsbuck, Impala, Blue Wilebeast, Warthog, Springbok, Duiker, all for about $5500 all inclusive on an 8 day hunt in SA. in 2007 I've never been a fan of daily fees and a trophy fee list. Most outfitters don't offer Packages but in my opinion there the best value. My Gemsbuck was the only animal that didn't make the SCI recordbook. We ate like kings and were pampered in every way.
Check out my website www.trailsendtaxidermy.com (http://www.trailsendtaxidermy.com)
follow the Hunt Africa link to Valley Bushveld Safari and Chilumna Safari.
Thanks for all your research
Jeff A.K.A. Kuduman
Post by: Rob on January 05, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
I tend to shy away from them myself just because you usually get a couple good animals, and then some animals you are not interested in. I'd rather order from the menue and get exactly what I am looking for than have something picked out for me.
For my dad and I, we want cape buffalo so packages are not really applicable. For my buddies, they may be an outstanding value.
Post by: Kuduman on January 05, 2011, 12:38:56 PM
I agree. packages are a great value especially for the first timer to Africa. In additional trips normally your getting a bit more specific about what you want to harvest.
I know for me my next trip will incluse a Nyala, Bushbuck, Waterbuck and a Red Heartabeast possibly a Eland and a Zebra but time and budget will tell.
I also encourage my clients to pick those animals that you really want and have a list of those animals that if the opportunity presents itself you would take. That way your not paying for a 10 day 8 animal trip and have a great possibility to take those same animals in a 5 day package.
When we went we were a bit worried that although our package animals were not going to be a problem, would we have ample time to take additional animals. Weather conditions is a big issue and as it turned out we collected 16 animals in 6 days and the weather was great. I actually saw the blue wildebeest that I took on the 4th day while hunting Blesbok on our first day.
Additionally I make sure the outfitter will exchange animals on their packages. Most that offer package deals will allow you to swap out say an impala for the Mtn. reedbuck and no additional charge. Their not going to allow you to swap a Blesbok for a Zebra and we shouldn't expect them to.
I often get asked... What if I don't get one of the animals included in my package ?
That a great question and I encourage folks to ask that of your outfitter. As for my outfitter if you don't have an opportunity to collect that particular animal than you won't be charged for that animal and that trophy fee amount Will be deducted from the final balance. this refund will not be given on missed opportunities or wounded game.
.
In your situation, I have seen Cape Buffalo/ Leopard combo hunts which is a great way to start a big 5/6 collection. There expensive but in the long run it's probably a significant savings compared to two trips.
I can tell you that there are two ways to hunt Africa, Daily fees with Trophy fees and Package hunts. It sounds like you did the former and I did the latter. I'll follow this thread and interject whenever practical so that the readers get the best and worst of each type of hunt.
Kuduman
Post by: Rob on January 07, 2011, 02:06:09 PM
Regarding the package hunts, yeah, one the last hunt, my dad and I went itemized on, but my buddy and his dad took a package deal and added in an animal or two. We were both happy with our choices.
Good point on the package exchanges and refunds. That will go on my questionnaire for the SCI show in a few weeks.
Id like to go leopard, and it is definitely a good value, but I think even so, the budget wont allow it this time. Im not on a quest for big 5 so that is not a driver. Besides, it is always good to leave some unfinished business when you leave so you have a reason to come back again! Also, I am looking to have fun with family and friends as much as kill animals. The downside of Zimbabwe leopard is that they are usually hunted over bait in tree stands. So to hunt them, you end up needing to go nocturnal arriving at the blind prior to dusk, and leaving it after dawn. That would put me on an opposite schedule than the others in my party.
Leopard will be on my list eventually.
I appreciate any insights. It helps me out quite a bit.
Post by: Rob on January 07, 2011, 02:12:19 PM
Contact info
Booth #
Concession name
contact e-mail
Contact name
Contact phone
contact web site
PH company name
PH name
Trip coordinator company name
DG rates
Daily rate for Buffalo
How many days are minimum for a buffalo hunt?
DG Scope
Do you have Crocodile?
Do you have Hippo?
PH to hunter ratio
Finance
Are the rates quoted good for the 2012 year?
Are there any other fees we should know about not included in the daily rate?
Are there any Taxes to consider outside of the Daily rate?
Are there any transport fees of trophies post hunt?
Are there camp transfer fees?
What are the transport fees?
General Scope
Accommodations Description
are Customs services provided?
Camp perks?
Can you support both buffalo hunters and PG hunters
Daily rates include PH, food, lodging, trackers, skinners, laundry, beverages, etc, correct?
General
how do you get from the airport to the camp?
How many hunters can you support?
Is a small aircraft charter required to get to the camp?
What are the Firearms requirements for PG?
What are the sleeping arrangements?
What differentiates you from other outfitters in the area?
What is the best time of year to go?
What is your deposit process?
What kind of sleeping structures are we in?
When do hunts start?
Will we be the only party at camp?
Land
How big is your concession?
Is it fenced?
PG Rates
Daily rate for PG?
How many days are minimum for a PG hunt?
PG Scope?
List Common PG animals in abundance
Do you have Sable?
Do you offer PG packages (if so, what?)
If you offer a package, can you substitute animals?
If you offer packages and I don't get a shot at an animal, do I pay a trophy fee?
List PG animals not in abundance
PH to hunter ratio
Spouse
Cost for extra curricular activities
Observer fee
What activities are there for a non hunter to do?
Post by: Rob on January 17, 2011, 08:24:32 AM
So I finally got all the components and equipment needed to load shells for the 450 Dakota. What a chore. It might as well be a wildcat cartridge.
I loaded up:
Ten 500 grain swift A-frames with 104 grains of H4350
Ten 500 grain Barnes TSX FBs with 107 grains of H4350
I was using Federal Large Rifle Magnum Match primers, and the OAL was 3.720 to the tip of the bullet.
I must say, this gun induces spontaneous swearing after every shot. The recoil is pretty punishing at least by my standards. I am really glad it has a set trigger as it is so light that I dont really have time to think about flinching as it goes off just as I start the pull. With the recoil this thing generates, I think I am limited to between 10 and 15 shots a day. I let another guy shoot it at the range (he was shooting his 458 Win Mag). I warned him that it packed a kick. He was ready for it, but not quite fully ready and it nearly jumped out of his hands when he shot. It does push as much as it kicks so that is somewhat better. Still somewhat shocking if you are not fully ready for it to hit you.
I was shooting 100 yards open sights (I sent the scope into Leupold for an inspection to make sure that the years of heavy recoil had not caused any scope damage).
On Saturday I put 6 of 7 rounds into the black. All 7 were in a 4 inch or so group. On Sunday I shot a few practice rounds and then put 5 shots into a 3 inch group, all in the black. Open sights at 100 yards, this is about as good as I can shoot with open sights at 100 yards at this point in my life so I am pretty happy about this. I will play with it again once the scope arrives and see if that helps reduce the group size. I also want to get a chronograph on it to see what kind of velocities I am getting . Those loads are supposed to generate something like 2400 fps.
I read an article on line about this cartridge. The author states that he loaded a 450 Dakota with a 600 grain solid. Not sure what range he fired from, but it went through 4 feet of wet newspaper, a Ύ inch piece of plywood, shattered a brick, penetrated a second Ύ inch piece of plywood and kept on going!
While cleaning the gun (first time since I removed the scope) I noticed that the barrel has two calibers stamped into it. One says 450 Dakota, the other says 458 Win Mag. This would indicate that the barrel was re-chambered to 450 Dakota sometime later in life.
I name most of my guns and I am still trying to think of a name for this one I am leaning towards Bethany.
I am overall pretty please with this gun. It is far more than I need to bring down a buffalo, but playing with a big bore has been something I have wanted to do for a long time. My only regret is that finding reloading gear for it is a pain. I also have a fear that if I lose my ammo on the way to Africa, there is no way I will be able to find 450 Dakota rounds. I intend to mitigate this by picking up a 375 H&H at some point over the next year to have as my second rifle. 375 H&H is the 30.06 Springfield of Africa and finding ammo for this cartridge should be less of an issue.
Post by: Rob on January 17, 2011, 08:26:42 AM
The heavy recoil of this gun has an unusual side effect. I think my flinch has been cured on lower calibers. Moving to a 300 WSM after shooting the 450 was nothing. Shooting the 22.250 was like shooting a pellet gun!
Post by: halflife65 on January 17, 2011, 09:13:34 AM
Great job, Rob. Looking forward to following this thread, too.
Post by: fair-chase on January 17, 2011, 09:48:10 AM
Post by: Rob on January 17, 2011, 10:13:43 AM
I seem to recall that mailing ammo is not kosher. I'll have to check that out again as I'd rather do that than carry it. Was thinking the same thing regarding the thermocell butane cartridges. I am betting I cannot carry those on a plane either but I sure would like to have them while there!
Post by: halflife65 on January 17, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
Rob, would you be able to mail your ammo to your outfitter in advance of the hunt? Then you could get confirmation of it's arrival before you leave. Just a thought, don't know much about mailing ammo overseas.
I thought that I read somewhere that you could mail the ammo but it had to be in some special carton (not the original), HAD to be the caliber of the rifle you plan on using (so no mailing your PH ammo - apparently that's been a problem in the past) and there is some limit to the number of rounds you can send - something like 80. I might be confused with some other locale - I was also looking at Russia lately (not very seriously, just seeing what was available) - but I think that there are some rules around it.
Post by: Rob on January 17, 2011, 02:39:26 PM
I am pretty sure mailing ammo to most if not all African countries is a no-no. That is something to check out at SCI in Reno end of the month!
Post by: Rob on January 24, 2011, 09:32:12 AM
Contact:
Booth #
Concession name
Contact e-mail
Contact name
Contact phone
Contact web site
PH company name
PH name
Trip coordinator company name
DG rates:
How many days are minimum for a buffalo hunt?
Daily rate for Buffalo/PG
Daily Rate for a Buffalo/Sable/PG hunt
Daily rate for a Buffalo/Crocodile /PG hunt
DG Scope:
Do you have Crocodile?
Do you have Hippo?
PH to hunter ratio
What is the minimum # of days for a Buffalo/PG hunt?
What is the minimum # of days for a Buffalo/Sable/PG hunt?
What sort of vehicles are used when hunting DG?
What type of hunting do you do for Buffalo (stand/Car/Spot and stalk?)
What type of hunting do you do for Crocodile (stand/Car/Spot and stalk?)
What type of hunting do you do for Sable (stand/Car/Spot and stalk?)
How far are the shots for Leopard?
How far are the shots for Buffalo
What are the physical requirements for a Buffalo hunt?
What is the minimum # of days for a Buffalo/Crocodile/PG hunt?
Finance:
Are the rates quoted good for the 2012 year?
Are there any other fees we should know about not included in the daily rate?
Are there any Taxes to consider outside of the Daily rate?
Are there any transport fees of trophies post hunt?
Are there camp transfer fees?
Are arrival and departure days counted as hunting days?
How are arrival and departure days charged?
General Scope:
Accommodations Description
Camp perks
Can you support both buffalo hunters and PG hunters
Daily rates include PH, food, lodging, trackers, skinners, laundry, beverages, etc, correct?
General comments
How do you get from the airport to the camp?
How many hunters can you support?
What are the Firearms requirements for PG?
What are the sleeping arrangements?
What differentiates you from other outfitters in the area?
What is the best time of year to go?
What is your deposit process?
What kind of sleeping structures are we in?
When do hunts start?
Will we be the only party at camp?
Do you have space for 2DG & 4PG hunters in 2012?
Land:
How big is your concession?
Is it fenced?
PG Rates:
Daily rate for PG
How many days are minimum for a PG hunt?
PG Scope:
Common PG animals in abundance
Do you have Sable
Do you offer PG packages (if so, what?)
If you offer a package, can you substitute animals?
If you offer packages and I don't get a shot at an animal, do I pay a trophy fee?
PG animals not in abundance
PH to hunter ratio
How far are the shots for plains game
How far are the shots for Sable?
Do you have a minimum caliber for Plains game?
What are the physical requirements for a PG hunt?
What sort of vehicles are used when hunting PG?
What type of hunting do you do for Plaines game (stand/Car/Spot and stalk?)
Spouse:
Cost for extra curricular activities
Observer fee
What activities are there for a non hunter to do?
Transport:
Are Customs services provided?
What is the nearest airport to the camp that has scheduled flights to JoBurg?
How far from camp to airport (Miles or Time)?
Do you have to charter a private plane to get to camp?
Post Hunt Scope:
Do Daily rates include boiling skulls and salting hides?
How does the dip/ship of horns/hides only work?
Do you have a taxidermist you work with in Africa. If so, who?
Post by: Kuduman on January 24, 2011, 12:18:52 PM
Great point about meeting the outfitters face to face. The down side of that is that with all the cost of attending the Reno show those packages are not generally the most budget friendly. I attended a show a couple of years ago and there was one other outfitter from SA there as well, about three hours into the show on Friday he headed over to my booth and almost had a heart attack when the package I was offering was about half of the price he was offering.
I know there are competitive price wars to win over customers especially at large conventions and sportsmans shows but generally you'll pay more for a hunt there than anywhere else.
As I tell my clients it about trust or budget. If they want the peace of mind that goes with meeting the outfitter than they have to be willing to pay for it. My experience is that most people that are budget minded are willing to trust a booking agent based on their experience with that outfitter.
Another great point is the political atmosphere in Zimbabwe. A good friend of mine until just recently refuse to send anyone there until things cooled down. I hunted with one friend from Spain that lost a huge deposit on a dangerous game hunt because of the raise in taxes from the government that almost doubled the cost of his hunt.
The down side is that Zimbabwe is the best place to hunt big buffs so your going to have to be willing to take some calculated risks. That's why I book plains game hunts to South Africa.
I will be doing a seminar in Tri-Cities on the 26th of Feb at wholesale sports and I'll be talking about these issues and more. I'll have examples of what outfitters typically offer and how to hunt South Africa on a budget I hope you can make it I would like to meet you in person.
Thanks
Jeff
A.K.A. Kuduman
Post by: no1waterdog on January 24, 2011, 03:17:40 PM
Post by: Rob on January 31, 2011, 09:50:49 AM
My dad and I are booked for a Buffalo hunt from 10/1 to 10/10 in 2012 with the option to add 4 or so more Plains game hunters to our party in the future. We are hunting with Savuli Safaris on the Save Conservatory in Zimbabwe. Dad will also be trying to get an Nyala. We had to book for Buffalo a couple months earlier than I had planned as the 2012 Buffalo permits were going fast.
I will provide full pricing scenarios when I have time to print it up in a forum friendly format.
For now, enjoy some photos of the spectacular taxidermy SCI had to offer!
Post by: Rob on January 31, 2011, 09:53:22 AM
Post by: Rob on February 03, 2011, 04:17:40 PM
As I said before, SCI was great. Nothing like spending a few days with like minded folks with a common obsession. I regret that I was not able to spend time in the many seminars they held but I was on the show floor all day both days gathering information.
As I went through the show and talked with folks, I narrowed my selection to three outfits – all of which hunted different portions of the Save in Zimbabwe. That seemed to be the common consensus for a place that would meet all our needs (good buff, good PG, no fences, stuff for the spouse). The three I looked at in detail were:
-Zambezi
-Savuli
-Mokore
I spoke with the 3 outfitters and liked all of them. They all had similar quality of game (not surprising) with a couple exceptions on Croc, Sable, Nyala, and Warthog.
After chatting the the various outfitters at the show, it became apparent that all the 2011 buff tags on quota were either already gone, or if any were available, they were single tags. The 2012 tags were disappearing rather quickly and the odds of getting a “first choice” outfitter with two 2012 buff tags were slipping with each weekend that passed. It became clear that we would need to make a booking commit on our buff hunts at this show to ensure that we could get two buff tags held for us with the outfitter we wanted to go with.
The challenge was to figure out how to do an apples to apples comparison between the different outfits. The primary variables that were different between outfitters were:
-Daily rate
-Transport fees to camp
-Minimum # of days to hunt
-Trophy fees (for PG this is complicated further by the combination of trophies desired)
Some costs that applied more or elss equally to all of them also existed:
-MARS (emergency medical evac insurance)
-daily rate tax of 2%
-Trophy fee tax of 4%
-Dip and pack fees (pretty much the same for all)
-Rifle permit and hunting license fees (I later found out that these were not applicable to hunts in Zim-only Mozambique so I pulled thes #’s out of subsequent pricing models)
With some places having a min 7 day PG hunt, and others an 8 day, not to mention differing daily rates, trophy fees, and vastly differing camp transfer fees, it was impossible to eyeball which camp had the better deal. Additionally, 3 of us are interested in 1x1 hunts (i.e. we each get our own PH) and 2 of the hunters want to hunt 2x1 (on PH for the two of them) which alters the rates further.
On Friday night after walking the show floor, I took the data back to my room and spent a couple hours building a model. I am going to post the model in chunks so you can follow what I did.
First I put all the trophy fees into a table. I highlighted the animals that were present in good populations in green, and those that were in good populations but required a nighttime hunt in blue. I was having trouble seeing which outfitter had the best prices by glancing at the rates so I applied conditional formatting to the cells so that circles would show up to the right of each rate. Hollow circles mean it is the lowest price, solid circles are the highest price, and partially filed in circles are the middle price. Note that if there was a 3way tie, all three circles are solid. In general, Savuli had the lowest rates.
Next, decided I needed to pick a common package of Plains Game across all three outfitters so I could get an apples to apples comparison. I selected a package of 6 animals that I thought would be a quality group to hunt: Eland, Kudu, Duiker, Impala, Warthog, Wildebeest. I built the table such that if you put an “x” into the sample package column for the animal, it subtotals the package cost for each outfitter.
Post by: Rob on February 03, 2011, 04:19:20 PM
-The buff hunt varied from between 14K and 18K
-the 2x1 PG hunt (10 day) varied between 8 and 13 K,
-The 1x1 PG hunt (7 or 8 day depending on the minimum) varied between 8-11.5K.
Post by: Rob on February 03, 2011, 04:20:07 PM
I asked around regarding the price difference, and from what I could tell, the differences were driven by two items
1. Quality of camp. Zambezi is considered a 5 star camp. Very high end, excellent service
2. Reputation of outfitter. While Savuli comes highly recommended, the PH had only run his own camp for 3 years so he was not quite as well known as his peers.
I passed this info by everyone, and then I got a follow up question from my dad that complicated the model. The Save is not really known as a Sable location, however Savuli indicated they had some prime Sable on their portion of the concession. Dad was interested in getting one of the Sable they had on Quota so I worked up a scenario for this. Of course this changed the minimum # of days from 10 to 14, upped the daily rate by 150, and added a 4K dollar trophy fee. Total impact of adding a Sable to the Savuli hunt was about 10K. He decided to pass.
Post by: Rob on February 03, 2011, 04:22:06 PM
While dad decided to pass on the Sable hunt, he became enamored with Nyala and decided to target Nyala. This had a 3,100 trophy fee, and raised the daily rate 100 per day (but did not raise the minimum number of days past 10). So adding Nyala to his package tacked on an additional 4,100 dollars plus the 4% trophy fee tax.
I spend some time this week refining and customizing the packages. I removed the price comparisons from the model as they were no longer relevant. I also created a unique model for each of the hunting party members to use to change the customizable packages. I wanted to provide an all up “doorstep to doorstep” price estimate for each of us. So I built out some extra variables such as airfare, rifle expediting services, spending money, shots, camp transport, observer fees, etc.
I added in the ability for my dad and I to add in plains game animals to our buff hunts too.
Here is the most current version of the model and should represent a "doorstep to doorstep" cost that is will be pretty close to reality. it is kinda small, but if you click on it and zoom in you can read it.
Post by: Rob on February 03, 2011, 04:26:58 PM
Here are some photos of the permanent camp.
Post by: Kuduman on February 09, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
Looks like a great time in Reno. The taxidermy alone would have been overwhelming let alone comparing the different outfitters.
I'll be in Tri-cities on the 26th at 6:30 PM at the wholesale sports on Canal Ave. Hope to see you
Thanks
Post by: engelwood on February 10, 2011, 09:02:58 PM
Post by: Rob on February 11, 2011, 07:28:14 AM
Engelwood:
Dang! I had a formula error, thanks for catching that! It was totalling all the values in Ray's package, including his grand total... I fixed that up-thanks for the catch.
The reason his package is more than the other PG packages is that he is taking his wife as an observer. He will see a 200 per day fee for that, his transport to camp will be double, and airfare and spending money will increase as well.
Again, thanks for catching the error.
As for posting all this info, I find it helps me get my thoughts cleared up as well so it helps me too (not to mention having people check my math...)
Post by: engelwood on February 11, 2011, 08:10:28 AM
Also, sorry for checking the math, I'm an accountant and therefore can "geek out" on things like that from time to time!
Post by: Rob on February 14, 2011, 10:08:18 AM
I think I mentioned it above, but I sent the scope on my 450 Dakota off to Leupold to have them look it over. They did so and said it checked out fine although they did replace an erector on it. I just love Leupold!
Anyway, with open sights, I was able to put 5 shots inside a 3 inch circle at 100 yards which for me is good with any open sight firearm. I remounted the scope on Saturday after messing around with 5 or six shots to get it zeros at 100 yards, I took a three shot group at one of the one inch red circle I pasted on the target. I was very pleased to have a Ύ inch three shot group! I did a second three shot group and was able to get two to touch, and I must have pulled the third shot as it went left about 3 inches.
As I said before, the recoil is rather punishing with the barrel having a tendency to rise significantly when shooting. It wants to jump from your hands and I have to really try to keep the scope from hitting me in the face. I was over in Eastern Wa on Sunday so I decided to try shooting the Dakota from the new safari sticks I picked up at the SCI show. I put a target out at 67 yards, set up and pulled the trigger. I hit the target, and was shocked to notice that the recoil was significantly reduced. We are talking a 25% reduction in my estimates. The gun did not feel like it was going to leap from my hands, the scope was nowhere near my face when done, and the felt recoil was much reduced. I always knew shooting from a bench increased recoil, but on this gun, the difference is very noticeable.
Here is a photo of the three shot group I got on Saturday.
Post by: Rob on February 18, 2011, 02:33:45 PM
-Adam Clements Safari Trackers (ACST) is the Outfitter who sets up the hunts. ACST works with Many PHs across the world.
-Mark Young is our coordinator. He works for Adam Clements Safari Trackers.
-Terry Anders is the PH we will be hunting with. Terrys company is called Savuli Safaris. Savuli has two concessions on the Save Conservatory in Zimbabwe that we will be hunting.
Before booking our hunt with Savuli through ACST I did some research on Mark Young. The African Safari world is actually quite small Follow this rabbit trail:
Mark Young mentioned that he had been on several hunts with Jerry Huffaker. Jerry is the Taxidermist that my dad and I used after our Namibian hunt. It so happens that Jerry lives in Abilene Texas, the same town my parents live in. Not only has Jerry has done many mounts for good friends of my dad, but as the taxidermy from our Namibian hunt progressed, he and my dad became friends and have since gone on a few goose hunts together. Both dad and I know Jerry to be a stand up honest guy with great ethics (not to mention that he is a dang good taxidermist!). Since Mark indicated he and Jerry were friends and had hunted together, this seemed like a great personal reference to check on. Jerry said that even though Mark had long hippy style hair, he was an honest ethical guy to work with and would do right by us.
I then went to the internet court. The Accurate Reloading forum (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/ (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/)) is a wealth of info for those looking to go on an African hunt. Much like Hunt-Wa, you can glean an abundance of info on PHs and their practices. Just as Jerry Huffacker has a great name as an African taxidermist on that forum, Mark has a great reputation and an honest and straightforward guy. Additionally his posts are well thought out and constructive. By example, would anyone here on hunt Wa expect to take an animal to Charlies Taxidermy or Michelle Nelson and expect to be treated anyway other than fairly or with mutual respect? I think not. So I felt pretty good about booking with Mark regardless of what outfitter he was booking through.
I also did a search on the AR forum for Terry Anders and found nothing but accolades for his abilities to deliver as a PH.
After doing all this research, I felt pretty positive that we would be dealt with fairly by Mark, ACST and Terry.
It was about this time that we got the contract and Terms and Conditions (T&C) that we needed to sign that would translate our verbal agreement to a more formal agreement to hunt.
After reading the ACST T&C, my dad and I, as well as the other folks interested in hunting with us were put off. The 9 pages of legalese basically said that prices could change for any reason at any time and at the sole discretion of ACST. This was very unexpected and after reading these terms, we all agreed we were not comfortable signing them. I began thinking of what other outfitters I wanted to consider hunting with, while at the same time we worked down the path of negotiating a middle ground with Mark and ACST.
My dad and I drafted an addendum to the T&C that went point by point through all of the concerns we had. This amounted to a 4 page, fairly technical, document. One of the guys in the planning group is a Marine in the JAG. He looked at our addendum and thought that it swung us to the exact opposite position where we were asking the outfitter to accept all risk.
I called up Mark and we talked through the concerns. He explained a couple things:
1. Their goal is to make sure we have a good hunt and they always go the extra mile to ensure we have a good hunt.
2. There are things that can happen with a hunting trip to a third world country that can change the costs significantly. Things that are out of the control of the client, outfitter and PH.
3. There are inherent risks in traveling to a 3rd world country and travelers need to be comfortable accepting some degree of risk.
4. They will always bend over backwards to accommodate us should things change on the trip and do what can be done to make it right. Word of mouth and the internet community being as small as it is can ruin an outfitter or PH if they fail to do so, so it is in their best interest to take care of customers and do right by them.
5. What is listed in the Terms and Conditions, and what is done in reality when things start to go bad are not the same. They will always error on the side of the client relative to the T&Cs
I could see his point. They need to ensure that:
-people dont cancel trips because the media makes a huge deal over a single incident of violence
-people do not elect to not pay their trophy fees
-if the government of Zimbabwe decides to double or triple the tag price for a cape buffalo by, they do not end up losing money on the hunt.
-They are legally covered against deadbeat hunters who elect not to pay their bills
He cited an example from a few years back when he had a group of hunters on the ground in Tanzania hunting Buffalo when the Gvt. doubled the tag price, effective immediately, for Buff. Understand that the hunters were already at camp and hunting when this happened. The T&C would indicate that the hunters were obligated to pay for the whole hunt regardless of what the trophy fees were. He said that they told the hunters they could continue the hunt with the new tag price, or take a full refund for the trip. So they have a track record of being flexible.
But while I could see his point, it did not change the fact that the contract we were signing did not express that they would do whatever it took to take care of us. It provided 100% coverage and latitude for adjustments to the Outfitter, and 100% liability rested with us as the clients. This was still not acceptable for us.
After talking with Mark, he agreed to look over our 4 page addendum with his legal team and see if we could work out an agreement. Before sending it to him, I called my dad up again, and we talked it over. We figured that they would be as offended by our addendum as we were by the T&C and that we could descend into a tit for tat conversation over nits that could extend for several weeks and leave a bad taste in all our mouths. We decided that at the end of the day, we wanted the following:
-Quotas allocated on the quota animals we wanted to hunt specifically Cape Buffalo, on the days we would be in camp to hunt them. If not, then we wanted an option to reschedule or cancel the trip.
-The prices quoted for daily rates, trophies fees, etc would not change unless driven by a change by the Zimbabwe Government.
-We wanted the details of what would be provided in the daily rate to be specifically called out.
-we wanted the trophy fees for all animals listed.
So it really came down to those 4 things. I called Mark back and told him about the conversation my dad and I just had, and asked if this sounded more reasonable. He agreed so I drafted a note to him with our requests. It was crafted into a formal addendum which was sent to Terry Anders. Terry agreed to this in less than 24 hours as written.
The early part of this week my dad and I signed the papers and sent off our first deposits. And today ACST confirmed receipt. So as of today, dad and I are officially going to Africa!
We now officially have locked up the camp for our party, and it looks like we can take 4 other PG hunters with us. It will be a great hunt! Only 20 months to go!
Post by: Rob on February 18, 2011, 02:37:21 PM
Post by: Rob on February 18, 2011, 02:41:06 PM
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/9181018041 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/9181018041)
This is the kind of stuff that causes 9 pages T&C docs like the one we got from ACST!
It was nice to be able to work with Mark through the process. He was easy to work with and really wanted us to come to a place that we felt we would be comfortable in signing. The situation could have been very unpleasant overall and ended badly, but Mark did a great job helping us out.
Post by: Rob on February 24, 2011, 08:49:17 AM
I found a link where our outfitter is listing two more 2012 buff hunts with the same PH we are looking to go with. the daily rate quoted is 100 a day higher than what we have so it looks like the rates are on the rise, or we got a bit of a better deal via the SCI show.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/7111036051 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/7111036051)
In other news, I am getting set up to load for 375 H&H. I have a shell plate already. I ordered dies, 100 rounds of Norma brass, a crimping die, and a box of 350 grain barnes banded solids on Tuesday. While at the SCI show I took advantage of their show special and ordered 150 of the Tipped TSX (I think they were in 250 grain, but I can't recall-they only came in one weight). I do see however that Barnes does not have any loading data for the Tipped TSX in 375 H&H on their web page and I assume it is also missing in my manual. I think this is a new product offering for them as the T-TSX in 375 caliber is not listed on their website yet either.
The Norma brass is backordered till May, so once that gets here I'll be all set to start loading up 375 H&H shells! Now I just need to go find a 375 H&H rifle... That will be a project for later in 2011 as I am tapped out of surplus funds at this time!
Post by: engelwood on February 28, 2011, 10:21:32 PM
Post by: ORCA_SIX on March 20, 2011, 10:28:55 AM
Post by: Rob on March 29, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
Post by: Rob on March 29, 2011, 06:58:42 PM
1. Looks like one of my buddies has decided for sure to join my Dad and I on the hunt. His Father plans to go along as an observer too. So this is GREAT news.
2. I picked up rifle #2 for the trip
As mentioned before, it is customary to bring two firearms on a trip like this. I selected and obtained a CZ 550 Safari Magnum chambered in 450 Dakota (AKA Bethany) as my primary Buffalo gun, but my fear with this gun is, if I were to lose my luggage on the way to Camp, there is no way I would have been able to find any 450 Dakota shells to shoot with. So I would be stuck shooting a camp gun. A big part of the memory of a hunt for me is looking back at my rifles and recalling prior game I have shot with them it in the past. Not being able to shoot one of my girls for a trophy as significant as a Buffalo would take a little piece away from the overall hunt for me.
For a second rifle I wanted the option to be able to use it for any Plains Game I decided to shoot, but also be able to use it for a Buffalo in a pinch. It also needed to in a caliber that I would have a very high possibility of finding ammunition locally, or in Camp. The 375 H&H Mag is the starting legal minimum for Cape Buffalo. Additionally, the 375 H&H Mag is to Africa, what the 30.06 Springfield is to America. It is used for everything from Klipspringer to Elephant, and ammunition can be found in any store that sells ammo, and is most likely already laying around camp, left behind by former hunters, or used by the PH’s in their own guns. Although I really wanted to bring a 12 gauge for birds, I decided that the 375 is really the most prudent choice.
Back in December when I was trying to decide on my primary Buffalo gun, a gentleman from Florida PM’d me on the Accurate Reloading forum. He said that he had picked up a CZ 550 Safari Magnum chambered in 375 H&H Mag for a DG hunt in Africa a few years back. His plans had changed and he no longer needed it. He was the second owner- the original owner had bought it to go on a Grizzly bear hunt and claimed to have put one box of shells down the pipe. I am unclear if the former owner shot a bear or not (would love to have this tidbit of info!). When the guy I bought it from got it, he put another 7 rounds down the pipe sighting it in and playing with it after he had some custom work done to it.
The gun had about 5-600 dollars of custom work put into it including:
-A trigger job
-Bolt Smoothing work
-A mercury Recoil reducer
-A Barrel Band (not sure I’ll keep this)
-Rings added
-Glass Bedding
-A rear cross bolt added
The blueing is 100%, and the stock is in pretty good shape-there are a few dings in the wood from either field use, or safe storage, but nothing that went through the finish.
He offered a price that very fair given all the custom work so I "pulled the trigger" so to speak and bought it.
It arrived last Friday, and I picked it up from my FFL on Saturday. I had also ordered a Leupold VX3 4.5-14x50 scope for it. While the rings that came with the gun were tall enough to allow it to mount, they were unfortunately too short to allow the front flip cover to clear the rear sights (the rear sights on the CZ 550 Safari’s are quite large-allowing for 100, 200 and 300 yard shots by flipping up tabs). So I have new rings on order (It’s always something…). I don’t feel too bad about ordering them as I really want Quick detach rings for this one so I can easily drop the scope and use open sights if need be. Also, I can potentially quickly convert it to a DG Buffalo gun by moving the VX3 1.5-5x20 that is on my 450 Dakota and re-sighting it in if need be.
I tested the trigger pull weight with my gauge. The standard trigger is set for approx 3 pounds 7 OZ. It is nice and crisp. Most CZ’s come with a set trigger, and the set trigger on this one is at 12 Ounces!! That is pretty darn light. It is nice for bench work, but I fear it is too light for field shooting. I think I’ll probably use the standard trigger while hunting.
I took it to the range on Sunday and put 15 rounds through her (I have not named her yet…) using open sights. I really suck with open sights, but despite my lack of skills, I was able to get 3 shot group sizes that were between 1 and 1.25 inches at 50 yards. (Bad I know, but as good or better than I can normally do with open sights at that range). I fully expect that once I get the scope mounted, I’ll be shooting sub MOA with it.
Anyway, here are some mediocre photos. Looks like I’ll be hunting with a brace of CZ 550’s next year!
Post by: ORCA_SIX on March 29, 2011, 09:07:34 PM
Hey Orca, what animals did you shoot? Feel free to share your photos on this thread, I'd love to see them!
I shot a lot. Kudu, Warthog, 4 Colors of Springbok (White, Copper, Black, Common), Black Wildebeest, Mt. Reebuk, Daiker, Impala, Steenbok, Bushbuck, Bontebuck, Ostrich, Baboons, some Varmints (Foxes, Cats, etc.) and other Small game.
Post by: ORCA_SIX on March 29, 2011, 09:11:42 PM
Post by: Rob on March 30, 2011, 08:38:48 AM
Nice Kudu too. I like the antbear as well. We dropped many a tire into thier holes on our hunt!
Post by: ORCA_SIX on March 30, 2011, 08:57:16 AM
Post by: Rob on March 30, 2011, 04:26:30 PM
-12 months for the hides and horns to make it from Namibia to Texas and clear customs
-6 months for the hides to be tanned
-Only like 3 months for the ALL taxidermy work to be completed!
And it only took the Shipper (Estes Freight) 30 seconds to run a forklift through the crates of completed taxidermy and damage my zebra, Kudu and warthog display!
Took them 2 months to compensate me for the damage though.
I'd have that antbear mounted for sure if it was me. Hope you did so. I am hoping to bump into a porcupine and get a shot off. They are really cool and would make a neat mount.
The more I look at the Springbok, the more I like the different colors. I have seen some neat mounts done of the differing color species. Hope you will Post some photos of your finished mounts once the arrive!
Post by: ORCA_SIX on April 06, 2011, 01:24:17 AM
The Antbear's were giving to the trackers and skinners to consume. They like to eat that stuff. The baboons I shot as well.
The are a lot of other animals I will eventually go back for, but one thing I did not get was a Caracal. That I would have taken to the taxidermist.
When do you leave again and what animals?
Post by: Rob on April 12, 2011, 11:21:21 AM
Well, I finally got the scope mounted to the 375 H&H Mag. The rings came yesterday. The original rings did not fit as they were too low to allow the scope to be mounted AND the front flip cover to be raised without getting stuck on the rear open sight mount.
I ordered higher rings from an FFL buddy of mine and elected to get the QD rings. Here is why.
As mentioned before, this is to be the backup Buffalo rifle. I got a Leupold VXIII 4.5-14x50 since the primary application will be plains game-however one wants a very low powered scope for buffalo as the shots are usually close range and often rapid target acquisition is needed. Should I need to revert to my 375 for Buff, then Ill need to pull the high magnification scope off it and put on the lower magnification scope. Since both rifles have the same base system (an unintended advantage to going with the same model rifle!), I should be able to move the scope from one rifle to another, and dial them into zero with no tools using the QD rings system. Ill of course test this out before I go. I did bore sight it last night after mounting, then removed and reattached the scope and it was right back on zero on the bore slighter so that is encouraging.
So its all mounted now. I just have one concern. Even though I got the high rings, I was still forced to move the front ring backwards so that the flip cover will clear (see photo #1 for clearance illustration). This has caused the front ring to hang off the front base by about 20% (see photo #2), I tested clearance for loading and ejecting shells and that is not an issue. My question is, will it be secure enough for shooting? Given the keyed rear ring base (see photo 3) that looks as though it will act like a recoil lug, and the excessive weight of the gun and mercury recoil reducer has sufficiently tamed this rifle, I think it will. Ill be testing this out extensively over the next 18 months!
In other news, I was not happy with the way the RCBS seating die was crimping the 450 Dakota shells. The crimps were only showing on about 50% of the case mouth, and if I tightened the die down in an attempt to get a more uniform crimp, it wanted to start accordion the shells. Given brass for the 450 runs nearly 2.50 a piece, I cant destroy brass learning. So I decided to order a lee factory crimp die. Of course nothing is easy for the 450 Dakota! Lee has to custom make the die, and it can only be made in the large die size. My Hornady AP press does not take the larger die sizes. So .. I had to order an RCBS Rock chucker for crimping. I get it all in, install the press and load up the die and realize I dont have a shell holder!!! (my AP press uses a shell plate). Off to the store to go buy a shell holder. $250 dollars later for a single stage press, custom die, and shell holder and I can finally crimp my shells! It leaves a wonderful crimp though!! I did 40 yesterday. I guess thats about 6.25 a crimp. I complain about her, but I really love this gun! But anyone who is thinking of one would do well to consider the extra costs. Just one step more mainstream than a wildcat round. For example, I am so glad it came with dies-they are 280 bucks a set on midway!
Post by: Rob on April 18, 2011, 10:03:33 AM
First the scope mount. Off set was a bad idea. By the end of the day, the recoil had pushed the scope forward a good 1/10th of an inch. I think it happened over the course of two sets I shot as those two sets were grouped in a vertical line rather than a circle which leads me to believe that the scope was moving after shots. These two strings were also on the heavier loads.
So I have decided to scrap the front lens cover and find an alternative and I remounted the scope further forward, I also used more torque on the screws-closer to 30 inch pounds rather than the 25 I used before. I am hoping this will keep it in line.
The real oddity was with the groups.
I sighted in the scope using cheap factory rounds 270 grains federal blue box.
I set the scope so the bullets were hitting 2 inches high at 100 yards.
Then I tried a starting load with 350 grain Barnes Banded solids.
I was shocked to see the group sitting 11 inches below the point of aim! This meant that these were shooting 13 inches lower than the factory rounds. I then tried a set using the max load for the 350 grain solid. These hit 7.5 inches below the point of aim, or 9.5 inches lower than the factory rounds.
I decided to try the tipped TSX shells and see what they would do. Without adjusting the scope I shot 6 different groups and they were all grouping between 2 and 4.5 above the Point of aim-very similar to the factory ammo. The variance of 2-4.5 came from the different powder charges I was using. I loaded up sets that varied up and down the recommended powder charge for the bullet.
I need to see what the BC is on the different bullets, as well as get a chrony on them so I can see what is happening. I cant go to Africa with different loads that are varying a foot at 100 yards!
The folks on the AR forum indicated this was not unusual, and to try and match my bullet weights better. So I will be trying the 300 grain solids next I guess.
Post by: ORCA_SIX on April 18, 2011, 12:08:53 PM
Post by: Rob on April 18, 2011, 03:52:17 PM
I have two issues. Scope mounting and POI for different loads/bullets.
I believe the scope issue to be fixed (will test that next weekend). On a side note, it struck me odd that the scope moved forward, not backward. I would have thought recoil would have pushed it backwards.
For the POI issue, I am trying to solve for two scenarios:
1-Hunt for plains game at moderate ranges
2-Hunt for Dangerous game at close ranges
I can get away with one bullet for the first scenario and I'd like for it to be a fast, flat shootng, high quality, lighter expanding bullet.
But I need two loads for the second scenario. A heavy hitting expanding bullet for the first shot, followed by a magazine of solids for backup shots. I'd like all three loads to be +/- 1 inch of each other at 100 yards. Might be a pipe dream, but I have time to try and dial them in.
If I cant find three bullets that have similar POI, then I ditch the lighter faster PG load and fall back to the heavy hitting expanding bullet, and the solid combo-using the expanding bullet for plains game hunting.
What I am reading on the other boards, and from buddies of mine on the 375 is:
A. Most folks don't load over 300 grains in the 375 HH
B. A difference in 100 grains between the solid and the Tipped TSX is significant. Try to get them closer together.
C. Experiment with different bullets and loads and eventually the magic combo will be revealed.
So the plan now is to continue to work up the 250 grain Tipped TSX's for scenario #1, and then Look at the Swift A Frame in 300 grains for the expanding bullet in Scenario #2, and drop the bullet weight to 300 grains for the Banded solid. If the Banded solid does not work, then try a Woodleigh.
Post by: Rob on April 25, 2011, 11:40:41 AM
As you will recall, two weekends ago, at 100 yards, both Factory Load Federal Blue box (270 grain SP) and my hand loaded 250 grain Tipped TSXs were hitting about 3 to 4 inches above POA. But the hand loaded 350 grain Barnes Banded Solids were shooting about 11 inches below the POA.
This time, I again shot two different loads, also at 100 yards. The same Tipped TSXs, and some Factory loads that were Federal Premium Nosler Partitions in 300 Grain. My tipped TSXs were averaging about 2850 FPS. The Factory loaded Noslers were averaging 2430.
The hand loads gave me pretty good groups-around an inch or so-and were hitting 3.5ish inches above POA. The factory noslers on the other hand, were not grouping well at all with groups of around 2-3+ inches, and were hitting around 10 inches low!
So again, I am seeing variances of 12 to 14 inches between differing loads (20% increase in Bullet weight, and 420 FPS delta in velocity)! I find this fascinating and have not seen this with any other calibers I have shot.
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on April 25, 2011, 02:13:31 PM
Post by: Rob on May 05, 2011, 10:57:10 AM
Quick update, two more folks have joined the hunting party. My buddy Ray who will be hunting Plains Game, and his Dad who will be coming as an observer.
Very Excited!!
Post by: lhrbull on May 22, 2011, 06:42:34 AM
Post by: Rob on May 23, 2011, 08:19:18 AM
Recommended
Tetanus booster with whooping cough
Typhoid (oral)
Polio Booster
Hepatitis A (Hepatitis B optional but wise to get)
o Twinrix is both Hep A and B and is a 3 shot series. Second is taken 4 weeks after the first and the third is taken 5 months after that. Last shot is optional but if you take it its good for life.
Malaria (doxacycline)
Cipro (to knock out an infection)
Optional
Rabies
oOpted not to get the rabies shots as they were several hundred dollars. The fall back is that if you get bit by a mammal you go in for the follow up series within 24 hours of being bit.
Yellow fever
o No outbreaks reported where we are going in either Namibia or South Africa. I got this anyway.
Post by: lhrbull on May 23, 2011, 08:18:55 PM
Post by: ORCA_SIX on May 23, 2011, 08:48:18 PM
I travel extensively and already had all of the shots that Rob mentioned but I went to a travel nurse for any updated shots for S.A. anyways. They said I was good with what I had. You can always check the CDC or Dept of State Travel and see what they recommend if you are starting off with no prior shots. These three sites should help you out. Also, I don't recommend the rabies shot. All it does is give you a little more time after getting bit, but you will still have to get follow on shots. Depending on where you are at, they could be the newer shots or the painful old style shots. Definitely look at getting your shots early so you have time to get all the required ones in the time frame they suggest.
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/south-africa.htm (http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/south-africa.htm)
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2898.htm (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2898.htm)
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1008.html (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1008.html)
Post by: Rob on May 24, 2011, 08:11:35 AM
Northshore Public Health Center
10808 NE 145th ST
Bothell, WA
98011
(206) 296 9787
This site has the details on North Shore
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/locations/travelclinic.aspx (http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/locations/travelclinic.aspx)
Post by: Rob on June 07, 2011, 09:40:48 AM
RAPID FIRE:
This was an interesting exercise. I put a target up on a 3.5 foot thick stump about 15 yards out. I then put three rounds in the magazine and, from an offhand shooting position, proceeded to fire all three rounds as fast as possible. I did this 3 times for a total of 9 shots. This is a drill I have never done before with a rifle so it was interesting.
-I found that it was possible to shoot this gun rapidly without killing myself or mangling my shoulder (in terms of recoil, the 450 roughly equal to shooting a triple barrel 30.06 -- all three barrels at the same time). After doing this 3 times, I could feel it in my shoulder. It also blew off the front butler creek scope cover after the 4th or 5th shot which I found amusing!
-I was focused more on rapid cycling than accuracy. I found the more I rushed, the longer it took to cycle the action. I would be better off using a calm and steady approach to cycling the action, than hell bent for leather.
-I was really not taking the time to aim properly. I was so focused on emptying the magazine that I found even at 15 yards I was shooting low and left. Slowing down a bit should improve this.
-HOLY COW! A 450 Dakota will put a 500 grain bullet clean through a 3.5 foot stump and leave a 1 inch exit hole! This was not a fresh stump, but it was not a rotten stump either.
Chrony data
500 Gr Woodleigh hydrostablized: 2411
500 Gr Barnes TSX: 2401
500 Gr Barnes Banded Solids: 2458
500 Gr Swift A-Frame: 2358
After the rapid fire exercise, my shoulder was really only capable of shooting one of each bullet for the chorny data. So Ill go get more data over the next few weeks/months.
I am pleased with the chrony data, they are all pretty close to +/- 50 FPS of 2,400FPS which is my target for velocity Ill be interested to see additional data as I collect it.
After 13 shots, my shoulder was beat! My buddies tried it and were all satisfied with taking a single shot.
Post by: Rob on June 20, 2011, 01:09:02 PM
Not looking for an expensive double or fancy bolt gun. CZ 550 Magnum would be preferred, but a Win Model 70 would be good too.
If you have a gun that you would like to sell that fits the following criteria, please drop me a PM
Must have:
-Cartridge: 416 Rigby
-Bolt gun with Mauser style extractor
-Multi cartridge capacity (i.e. not a single shot)
Nice to have
-Bedded
-Cross bolts
-Wood stock
I have also listed this in the Accurate Reloading forum as well as Seattle Guns.net.
Post by: Rob on July 07, 2011, 09:13:49 AM
https://www.safaripress.com/product.php?productid=434&cat=0&page=1 (https://www.safaripress.com/product.php?productid=434&cat=0&page=1)
The first 40 or so pages offers some of the best reading I have come across in terms of layman level discussion of ballistics as they pertain to hunting large game.
I am sure that what follows is a penetrating insight into the obvious for everyone else, but it clarified some things for me so I thought I’d share.
With Large game, especially African game, penetration is king. You want a bullet that you know will go through thick hides, heavy bones, and still reach the boiler room. I know I often look at energy when trying to compare different bullets for different applications-I have always known that this was not the best gauge, but I have not known why, nor have I known what other stats to use to help make such a decision. In the book, Kevin made the statement that Muzzle energy means very little when it comes to making such a decision and then provided some interesting insights.
When selecting a cartridge, he looks at three variables:
• Muzzle energy
• Sectional Density
• Momentum
To calculate these variables he uses Caliber, bullet weight and velocity
To illustrate his point, he did an interesting compare. (I am not using his #’s as I don’t have his book here in front of me, although I do have all his formulas used to calculate the #’s.) He took three cartridges in typical bullet weights and plugged in velocities such that all the bullets had similar muzzle energy. The rifles he used were a 30.06 Springfield, a 375 HH and a fictitious gun he called the 22 LR “super”. Here are the stats:
22 LR Super (again, this is a fake gun for illustrative purposes)
• 40 grain bullet, .224 caliber, traveling 6,600 FPS.
30.06 Springfield
• 220 grain bullet, .308 caliber, traveling 2,800 FPS
375 HH
• 300 grain bullet, .375 Caliber, traveling 2400 FPS.
These velocity/bullet weight combos yielded very similar Muzzle energy #’s:
• 22 LR Super 3,870 Ft/lbs
• 30.06 3,831 Ft/lbs
• 375 HH 3,838 Ft/Lbs
The question is, what would you rather shoot a charging Cape Buff with to get max penetration? I jump right to the 375 HH, but why? If I look at Muzzle energy alone, the answer would be, they are all the same.
Kevin next calculated Momentum and Sectional density.
• Sectional Density = Bullet Weight in Lbs/(Caliber squared)
o Sample: for 30.06 SD= ((220/7000)/(.308*.308)) = .331
• Momentum = (Bullet Weight * Velocity)/7000 Note: the 7000 is to convert grains to pounds
o Sample for 30.06 = (220*2800)/7000 = 88.0
30.06 375 HH .22 LR Super
Bullet Weight 220 300 40
Caliber 0.308 0.375 0.224
Velocity 2800 2400 6600
Sectional Density 0.331 0.305 0.114
Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs) 3831 3838 3870
Momentum Value (lb/FPS) 88.0 102.9 37.7
(The larger the momentum and Sectional Density #’s, the better the penetration.)
Now we are getting into how I am interpreting these #’s so I may be off.
I am assuming the following:
• Must be for Solids as I would assume penetration would be reduced for a bullet that expands
• Must assume that the bullet retains 100% of its weight
• Assumes penetration begins at the muzzle – one would need to lower the Velocity #’s to the down range distance that penetration begins.
So if I read this correctly, even though the SD on the 30.06 is the best (~9% greater than the 375 HH) and the Muz energy is about equal, the 375 HH shooting a heavier bullet at a slower speed will provide better penetration due to a momentum value that is 14% greater. (i.e. it is harder to stop so it goes further).
Oh yeah, and the “super” 22LR has pathetic penetration performance in spite of roughly equal muzzle energy, so it is “right out”
So my question would be, if the momentum value is greater for the 375 HH by 14%, does that mean that it will penetrate 14% deeper? I’d love to see a table that translates a momentum value into inches of penetration in ballistics gel.
By the way, when looking at the 300 WM vs 338 WM, the 338 WM comes out on top. I fudged the #’s such that the muzzle energy was roughly = between the two for an apples to apples compare.
300 Win Mag 338 WM
Bullet Weight 180 225
Caliber 0.308 0.338
Velocity 2950 2600
Sectional Density 0.271 0.281
Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs) 3479 3378
Momentum Value (lb/FPS) 75.9 83.6
Anyway, I found this an interesting way to get hard #’s that back up what we have been saying on this topic.
Post by: Rob on July 07, 2011, 04:05:12 PM
1. I think my dad will have his 416 Rigby (cz550) in hand by this weekend. He is going to go look at it while in San Antonio and assuming it is as advertised, I expect he will buy it. I posted a rifle wanted ad on the AR forum and got about a dozen replies. What did people do before the internet???
2. I have been playing with the 450 Dakota (AKA Bethany) to get use to the recoil. I have now put around 70 or so rounds through her. She really packs a whack, but I really enjoy shooting it. I am about to pre-order a new scope for it. The VX6 1-6x24 with a German #4 reticle. Ill get QD rings for it as well. Ill probably get that ordered by end of the week, with a ship date sometime by the end of the year. Cant wait.
3. A big bore shoot has been scheduled in Libby Montana. It sounds like a LOT of fun. I signed up for it. The shooting scenarios are at the end of this post. My only concern is, can I shoot 25-30 rounds through Bethany in a row as I work through the course?? My record to date is 13 over an hour or so. I am considering a sissy pad. Link: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/7401032851 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/7401032851)
4. I am arranging to buy a 505 Gibbs. Why? I have no idea. It just looks like a really fun big bore to have. I do not expect to take it to Africa this time, but if I find myself on an elephant trip someday, this would probably be the rifle. I pick it up at the big Bore shoot in August. I have all the reloading bits I need on order. I need to pick up some powder and Ill be good to go! Cant wait to try it out!
The Course of fire:
1 Sight in at camp, Standing on your hind legs, fire 2 shots on paper target at 40 yards, reload, fire 1 more shot.
2 Camp meat Standing , shoot 2 one gallon water jug guineas on ground at 25 and 30 yards for dinner.
3 Crossing Buffalo Standing, fire 2 shots at 25 yard moving buff, move forward 5 yards, reload 1 round then fire a finisher into the water jug buffalo heart on ground at 20 yards.
4. Poachers Fire two shots at poachers (balloon heads on 5 pvc pipe stands) at 20 and 30 yards, move forward 5 yards to the land rover (table), reload, kneel to take cover and fire 1 round at third poacher at 50 yards, can use table as rest.
5 Charging Lion From 25yds, on the whistle, Lion starts and shooter takes a knee, 2 rounds to chest target.
6 Sleeping Crocodile 1 or 2 shots at a ten foot croc with water jug brain, 100yards, we provide shooting sticks.
7 Charging Buffalo On the whistle, 25 yard buffalo starts toward shooter, 2 rounds to chest target.
8 Baboons in Camp, shoot quick Two babloons on short pvc pipe at 20yds, 2 more at 25yds, fire 2rds, reload, fire 2 rds.
9 Save the PH With empty rifle ,walk/jog/run forward 20 yards, load 2 rounds and fire at the 5 yard buffalo stomping the PH.
10 Pandemonium 1rd at 25 yard crossing buff, 1rd at charging buff(started from 30yds on your 1st shot), reload, fire 1 more round at still charging buff.
Life size moving targets will be powered by volunteer human beings pulling a rope at a brisk walk
Post by: h20hunter on July 07, 2011, 04:10:24 PM
I certainly hope you have the hunt you are expecting. After all this we will all be dying to see some pics of you trip.
Post by: Rob on July 07, 2011, 04:47:59 PM
I especially like the save the ph scenario. Are you allowed to yell certain things while killing the buff? Example: I will always love you Stefan! or maybe "I'll save you my muse!" You know, to make it more macho.
I certainly hope you have the hunt you are expecting. After all this we will all be dying to see some pics of you trip.
OK, I love that idea... I'll have to think of something witty to say.
Can't wait to have photos to post! This time 15 months from now I'll be on the trip!
Post by: lhrbull on July 31, 2011, 08:48:50 PM
Post by: Rob on August 01, 2011, 08:02:02 AM
Post by: Rob on August 01, 2011, 08:27:08 AM
I shot two bullets: a 250 grain Tipped TSX and a 300 Grain Swift A-frame.
If I zero on the tipped TSX shooting 68 grains of H-4895, Then I get the following info (5 shot groups)
68 grains: Point of Impact (POI) = Point of Aim (POA)
67 grains: POI is 2.2 inches below POA
66 grains: POI is 3.1 inches below POA
Using the same zero, and shooting the Swift A frame with I-4350 I get
81 grains: POI is 4.4 inches below POA
80 grains: POI is 5.5 inches below POI
81 grains of I-4350 is not only the max load, but a compressed load as well. The primers were pretty flat, but not extruded and the primers were not cratered. So I cant really add a grain to the A-frame load. I-4350 is also the fastest powder according to my lyman book.
I dont really want to slow down the TTSX as I am pretty much shooting starting loads at this point.
My next step will be to try some of the Woodleigh hydrostatic stabilized bullets and see what they do.
After spending the day at the range, I met a buddy and we went out to shoot from different hunting positions (i.e. on slopes, prone, sitting, etc) over some clear cuts. For fun I took a shot at a 2.5 foot thick tree with the 450 Dakota. The bullet passed clean through in what seemed to be a straight line. 30 inches of straight-line penetration through living wood is pretty darn good!
I shot about 150 rounds on Saturday, about 75 of them were from large rifles like 338 WM/300 WM, and 375 HH. The balance were small bore like 223 WSSM/204 Ruger/25.06 Remington/22.250 Remington. I ended the day with 4 shots from the 450 Dakota. It was tolerable, but I had limited desire to shoot more from it! I am hoping that I was tender from the other rifles. If not I may not survive the 30 round big bore shoot in Montana later this month! I may need to invest in a sissy pad.
Post by: bisonhunter1 on August 12, 2011, 08:40:04 AM
Sounds like you have an intersting problem with your .375. I too have a .375 H & H on the CZ American Safari Magnum platform. Its a kicker in of itself and I can only imagine what that .450 Dakota you have is like. I used my .375 on my 2008 Namibia plains game hunt (took a Ruger 77 in .30-06 as the backup). Largest bodied animal I shot with it was a cape eland, tough bugger, 3 shots to bring that one down for good. Not sure what to tell you about your different impact issues with the gun with those different bullet weights except to pick one weight, sight in for that and call it good, but I suspect you already thought of that. When I went, and since I wasn't after any DG, I shot 300gr. Nosler Partions (factory seconds no less, I reload my own stuff too) out of mine and did have a few 300 grain Barnes solids with me, "just in case". Both loads in my rifle shot within 2 inches of each other, primarly sighted in for the 300 gr. Nosler. Was shooting behind 70 grains of WW 760 if I recall correctly. In my trips to Africa (3 total) I found for me it was way more important where I shot the animal than what I shot it with. On this same 2008 trip using the .375 I shot and in the end lost a gemsbok bull, ouch on having to pay that trophy fee. Gemsbok seemed to be my jinx animal in Africa, in the three trips I have shot a total of 7 and lost 2 of those seven and only 1 was a 1 shot kill that went only a few yards. I've shot them with my .338 Win Mag and the mentioned .375.
Anyway, great thread you have here, I found this sight for the first time last night and just had to read thru all the pages you have here and the preps you are doing for your 2012 trip. Good luck when the trip does finally arrive and hope you all have a blast.
Willi
Post by: Rob on August 12, 2011, 10:03:07 AM
Good news is I have over a year to decide on some loads.
You are right about hitting it right being more important than what you hit it with. I like the idea of a big bore for two reasons. First, I think they are fun to shoot. Pulling the trigger on something that kicks you butt is a bit of a hoot. (Im probably messed up in the head). Second, having that extra penetration is a comforting feeling when you might need to take a rear quartering shot and shoot through rumen, or if you make a poor first shot. It is nice to know that the bullet you shoot can penetrate through thick hide and bones if duty calls.
But a 375 HH is really the best all around gun for Africa. No doubt.
Gemsbok are just plain tough animals. My gemsbok was a debacle. It took me 8 shots to drop it due to a poor first shot. Another member of our party lost his Gemsbok. They just seem to soak up bullets like wet newspaper. (of course my dad dropped his with a single shot at 220 yards).
Where else did you go on your other two trips?
Post by: h20hunter on August 12, 2011, 10:10:14 AM
Post by: Rob on August 12, 2011, 10:47:59 AM
We ate wild game for every meal. In some cases we ate our own game, in others we ate game from the previous party (so they could age the meat a bit).
The game we shot was either eaten by the trackers and their families, or sold to market. Namibia is a bit different than other countries as it is one of the least populated ones. There were no "villages" like you think of when you think of Africa. The trackers and their families lived on the property owned by the hunting outfitter (109,000 acres). There was a little town on the property with several houses that the families lived in. The lodging and food is provided by the outfitter as well as wages and training (they go to Windhoek for tracking school annually in the off season). I don't have a really good photo of the place the folks were living. the best I have is attached.
Side note: We spent some time shooting birds while we were there. Grouse type things, and guinea fowl. The trackers though we were crazy to spend time, and shoot expensive shells on something small and useless foodwise as a bird. They took the birds home for dinner, but I guess they don't really like them much. They think it is more better to focus on getting a large game animal that will feed more people. I thought this was kind of interesting from a cultural perspective. Not sure if all trackers in all countries are like this, or if it was just the folks we were with.
Post by: bisonhunter1 on August 12, 2011, 08:21:05 PM
Everyone might think I'm a stick in the mud stuck in a rut, lol. In my 3 trips to Africa (2003, 2008, 2010) I've done all PG hunts. 3 times in Namibia and 2 times in South Africa. I always hunted with different safari companies on every trip and so got to see different parts of each country each time. My PG animlas taken have run from small, duiker and steenbok to medium, springbok, blesbok, red hartebeest, bushbuck to larger animals like nyala, eland, gemsbok, blue and black wildebeest and zebras, both the Burchells (2) and a Hartmans mountain zebra to the biggest animal I ever shot which was a bull girafe on my 2010 trip in Namibia (shot that one from about 100 yards using my .338 Win Mag shooting shooting 250 gr. barnes TSX).
Maybe someday might go back, but for the price of that buffalo hunt or cats I could do at least two other hunts either here in USA or another PG in Africa. Also just finished a trip to New Zealand this past May and took a 13" Tahr and a 17 point red deer stag plus various varmits. Next "big" alreadu booked hunt if you will is to Alberta, Canada in Nov 2012 for moose and deer. That might be a good time to take my .375 again or maybe the .338 WM, have lots of time to decide.
Again, great thread and of course we all want post hunt information.
Later,
Willi
Post by: bisonhunter1 on August 12, 2011, 08:26:56 PM
Like you said all the game meat is saved and either used by the PH and or his staff and excess is sold in local meat markets. I ate meat from animals either I had shot or from previous hunters. Wasn't smart enough to ask about the giraffe I shot since we hunted and I shot that on a different farm not owned by the PH I was with. Most interesting flavor of meat was from the zebra I shot in SA on the 2010 trip, while well marinated ( no they didn't tell what the secret sauce was) and then cooked over open wood fire, it was definatly interesting and had a very sweet flavor to it. Best game animal meat I think was from eland.
Willi
Post by: actionshooter on August 12, 2011, 11:06:10 PM
Post by: fvh40 on August 16, 2011, 08:18:22 AM
Kind regards
Ferdi Venter
Post by: Rob on August 16, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
Again, glad folks like this thread. I overthink everything so I am probably putting more into this trip than needs to be done. But:
1. I find it helpful to post my thoughts-it helps me clarify them
2. The wealth of info and ideas I get from everyone is great!
3. If this data helps someone else down the road, then so much the better.
Willi; just cause you find something you love to do, and you do it multiple times does not mean you are in a rut! I decided to do DG because the hunt sounded interesting, but Id do a PG hunt anytime! I just love the Hartmans zebra. Such pretty animals. Couple questions if you dont mind:
1. How did the 338 work on the giraffe? How many shots? Did it go right down? I really wanted one on my Namibia hunt but passed. I was debating between my 338 WM and my dads 375 HH. I plan to shoot one on this trip if the opportunity feels right (i.e. it is a hunt, not a shoot)
2. What did you do with the Giraffe? (Mount? Rug?)
3. What outfitters did you use on your hunts?
4. Love to see photos-especially of the giraffe!
I have to agree, best meat-wild or domestic- I have ever eaten was Eland. Such great meat.
Ferdi,I love this site, but if you have not already checked out http://forums.accuratereloading.com (http://forums.accuratereloading.com), do so. Very heavy African slant to the forums. I especially like the big bore forum on that board. Great info.
Post by: bisonhunter1 on August 19, 2011, 09:00:56 PM
I shot my giraffe as I said in Namibia (Africa Plains Safaris was the safrai company) I shot my own handloads in the .338 WM, using Barnes 250 gr. TSX bullets. Spent several hours discussing shot placement with PH and looking at pictures in his "Shot Placement Book" he had and then evertime we saw a giraffe I "practiced" and asked PH questions about shot on the given animal we were seeing. Remember due to its shape, heart/lungs higher in chest and really more at abse of neck than most other animals. Was 4th day of trip before I actualy shot my giraffe on a differnt farm that had "better" big bulls available. 1st shot was about 100yards standing (me), giraffe was also standing broadside and facing to my left, using my bog-pod shooting sticks. Giraffe ran or loped off at shot, I missed with second shot, and was about to fire a third when PH said to wait he was going down. Giraffe ran about 150 yards before falling over. The bull was down but still alive when we got closer and I fired a third shot into its chest from about 10 feet to put it down for good (So 2 shots into giraffe from 3 total shots fired). We were able to trecover bullet from first shot during skinning etc, bullet did good expansion, 4 petals peeled back and weight was at 249.9 grs, so essentially no loss there.
Post by: bisonhunter1 on August 19, 2011, 09:11:43 PM
Anyway, back to giraffe, don't care for neckmounts and to much $$ for them. Had mine skinned into 2 pieces, 1st was a neck skin which is being done as a rug for wall hanging. @nd piece of remaining skin for other projects like sofa pillows or maybe furniture coverings, no decision on that yet. Meanwhile rest of skin is lying on my living room floor. Also saved the skull, man is that huge. Also kept the 2 front LOWER leg bones and had them scrimshaw carved with african animals wildlife scenes, everyone whose has seen them like what was done with them, Scrimshaw work done by an outfit in SOuth Africa I found out about. Also saved the skin and hooves from the two front lower legs, future table lamp projects is what I'm thniking here.
Heres the folks Ive hunted with in Africa, always used someone different to expereince other parts of each country, hunting, scenery, etc
2003 - Namibia - Otijuruse Hunitng Farm
2003 - South Africa - Keven Thomas Safaris (Eastern Cape area)
2008 - Namibia - Otijunke Hunting Ranch
2010 - South Africa - Infinito Safaris
2010 - Namibia - African Plains Safaris
All PG hunts and shot everthing from Kudu, gemsbok, Blue and Black Wildebeest, Hartmans and Burchells Zebras(2) Eland, Bushbuck, Nyala, Red HArtebeest, Blesbok, Black and Common Springbuck and of course hte Giraffe (33 animals total over all the trips.
Pictures, eh, well I'll try, but I don't have much luck posting them on the computers but I can try, maybe over the weekend as time permits. Might be easier in a Pm, but Ill try here first.
Willi
Post by: Rob on August 22, 2011, 07:16:31 PM
I plan to save the skull and leg bones as you did. I hear the leg bones are as dense as ivory, and that in addition to the scrimshaw work that you had done, it also makes great knife handles.
I plan to save the neck bones. There are only 7 of them. I would really like to make a floor lamp out of the neck bones. I'm just afraid the divorce would cost too much.
I am thinking rug is the way I'll go (If I pull the trigger on one.)
Post by: Rob on August 22, 2011, 07:31:16 PM
I got a more than fair price on a CZ550 Safari in 505 Gibbs. It came with dies, 125 unloaded bullets, and 20 pieces of unfired brass. I just could not pass it up so on my way to the Big Bore shoot in Libby MT I stopped off and met up with the same guy who sold me Bethany (450 Dakota) late last year, made a final payment (this is not in budget so I have been scrimping for the past few months and paying it off bit by bit) and now she is mine!
I got all ready to load a few rounds this evening, only to find out that the dies are 1 inch dies. My press can take 1.25 and 7/8 inch dies, but not 1 inch. For that I need an adapter. Which is of course on backorder from Midway! Such is the saga of loading for big bores. One step shy of loading forwild cats. Grr…
I am her third owner. The first one never shot her, second owner shot it less than 100 times. It has never been on a hunt, but the wood does have some safe dings that will need to be sanded out eventually. CZ sends the rifles chambered in 505 gibbs home with mercury recoil reducers in the stock which is an added bonus. The wood is very pretty.
It has not been Africanized yet, so I’ll need to do some work on it including:
-trigger smoothing
-bolt smoothing
-bedding
-cross bolts
Probably pretty dumb to buy, but I am getting such a kick (no pun intended) with the big bores. But it will be a fun project. Can’t wait to get it out to shoot it. The devil who sold this to me is trying to tlak me into his 470 NE double gun, but there is just no way!
Below are some photos of the gun, and comparison cartridges/bullets
Cartridges from left to right:
505 Gibbs
450 Dakota
45/70 Government
375 HH Mag
338 WM
300 WM
30.06 Springfield
300 WSM
22.250 Remington
Bullets from left to right
Loaded 357 Rem Mag cartridge
.505 Woodleigh PP SP (600 Grain)
.458 Swift A-Frame (500 Grain)
.458 Hydrostatically stabilized Woodleigh (500 grain)
.458 Barnes Banded Solid (500 Grain)
.308 Barnes TSX BT (150 grain)
.224 hornady V-max (55 grain)
Post by: Rob on August 22, 2011, 10:20:38 PM
Last weekend was the Big Bore shoot in Libby Montana. I must say, this was a world of fun. The shoot was on Sunday from 8 to noon, I left Seattle after work on Friday and headed east to pick up the above mentioned 505 Gibbs early Saturday. This allowed me to spenda leisurly Saturday driving through Eastern Washtingotn, make a stop at the Post Falls Cabelas. I managed to escape with minimal financial damage. I drove up through Sandpoint, through Bonners Ferry, and then dropped down into Libby Montana. I had decided to stay the night camping in the cabinet Mountains just outside of town. I found a nice little pull out up along a forest service road and put up the tent. I lit up the pipe and enjoyed a nice scotch and read a book until it was too dark to read. I was extra careful with all my food as I passed the “grizzly bear warning signs” on my way up to the campsite.
I awoke early and headed to the rifle range. Having never been to Libby before I found myself very jealous of the folks who live there. The city is clean, well kept, and looks like a great place to settle in and just enjoy life. When I arrived at the range, I was met with wonderful hospitality. After a safety briefing and run down of the days events, we got started.
The best way I can think of to describe this event would be to say, it’s like 5 stand, only with rifles.
Jay (the organizer) and his crew clearly put a lot of time into this event All the shots were done offhand, with two exceptions. The crocodile was a 75 yard shot off of sticks, and the Charging lion was done on one knee.
Here, once more, are the events:
Total of 25 to 26 shots
1 “Sight in at camp”, Standing on your hind legs, fire 2 shots on paper target at 40 yards, reload, fire 1 more shot. (3 shots)
2 “Camp meat” Standing , shoot 2 one gallon water jug “guineas” on ground at 25 and 30 yards for dinner. (2 shots)
3 “Crossing Buffalo” Standing, fire 2 shots at 25 yard moving buff, move forward 5 yards, reload 1 round then fire a “finisher” into the water jug “ buffalo heart” on ground at 20 yards. (3 shots)
4. “Poachers” Fire two shots at poachers (balloon heads on 5’ pvc pipe stands) at 20 and 30 yards, move forward 5 yards to the land rover (quad), reload, kneel to take cover and fire 1 round at third poacher at 50 yards, can use table as rest. (3 shots)
5 “Charging Lion” From 25yds, on the whistle, Lion starts and shooter takes a knee, 2 rounds to chest and head of target. (2 shots)
6 “Sleeping Crocodile” 1 or 2 shots at a ten foot “croc” with water jug brain, 100yards, we provide shooting sticks. (1 to 2 shots)
7 “Charging Buffalo” On the whistle, 25 yard buffalo starts toward shooter, 2 rounds to chest target. (2 shots)
8 “Baboons in Camp, shoot quick” Two “babloons” on short pvc pipe at 20yds, 2 more at 25yds, fire 2rds, reload, fire 2 rds. (4 shots)
9 “Save the PH” With empty rifle ,walk/jog/run forward 20 yards, load 2 rounds and fire at the 5 yard buffalo stomping the PH. (2 shots)
10 “Pandemonium” 1rd at 25 yard crossing buff, 1rd at charging buff(started from 30yds on your 1st shot), reload, fire 1 more round at still charging buff. (3 shots)
Highlights:
1. H2O Hunter: Per your recommendation, in scenario 9, “save the PH” I took your advice, and when the buzzer went off, before I ran, I yelled at the top of my lungs “Schalk, NO!!!!” I found it hysterical, but I only got a few chuckles, including one wise guy who said “I told Schalk the same thing last night”. The Save the PH event was pretty fun, they brought out a full sized dummy with a broken leg and a pith helmet to make it realistic.
2. I was killed by the charging Buffalo in Scenario #10. After shooting the crossing buffalo, I attempted to load shell #2 in my gun. I was using reloads that someone else did that I had not checked in advance and there was a deformity in the lip of the brass that hung up on feeding into the chamber. I could neither open or close the bolt. Buff gored me. Oh well, I recovered and gave it another try.
3. Having reloading in the scenarios was a great exercise. Really makes it clear just how slow slapping rounds into a gun can be.
4. I was shooting solids, and they can really pop a one gallon water jug – but for real adventure shoot an expanding bullet at it! The solids cause a nice explosion, the the expanding bullets create a mist cloud a good 15 feet high, and flings the plastic 25 yards off to the side. Very cool.
5. I was glad to shoot most shots off hand. That is something I do not practice nearly enough
6. I know many more people now that I would not want to be on the business end of their rifle. Some of the guys are retiree’s, and man they can shoot. I could watch them shoot all day long.
Again, the folks out in Libby have about the best hospitality I have experienced. They welcomed me in from the time I arrived, until I got in my truck and drove off. Totally worth the drive over. I’ll be back for the next one!
Enjoy the photos:
Post by: Rob on August 22, 2011, 10:21:48 PM
Post by: actionshooter on August 23, 2011, 08:51:38 PM
Post by: fvh40 on August 24, 2011, 01:09:52 AM
Ferdi
Post by: Rob on August 24, 2011, 08:14:44 AM
I was shocked how well the sissy pad helped my shoulder. I could have shot all day with that thing. My head was getting a little rummy with all the recoil though. The last set I shot
I could tell I was getting tired and sloppy.
Ferdi, this is what us Yanks need to do to simulate your amazing game!
Post by: h20hunter on August 24, 2011, 08:21:50 AM
Post by: Rob on August 24, 2011, 08:25:13 AM
Next up...Elephant hunt, 2014.
For the record, my wife hates you!
Personally, I like the idea! If I make that happen, It will probably be more like 2017. I'd be torn between Elephant and Leopard. Who knows, Buff might be so great I go back and do that again!
Lots of time to think that one through.
Post by: fvh40 on August 25, 2011, 09:54:46 AM
It is now 18-50 Thu evening.
I just returnd from our Buffalo camp and was standin about 50 yards from them. Very nice to be out there between the animals.
Ferdi
Post by: h20hunter on August 25, 2011, 10:15:53 AM
Post by: Rob on August 25, 2011, 05:06:21 PM
I do have a tendency to go a bit overboard on my hobbies...
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 09:49:57 AM
I got an e-mail from my dad on Monday. He said that he had been out at the deer lease (he lives in Texas) stocking a feeder, and decided to try to chrony his 416 Rigby. It was 106 degrees out and he was hot and in a bit of a rush due to the heat. He set up the chrony, and then used his quad as a rifle rest. He was leaned over the quad when he took the shot.
POW!
You guessed it! His rifle bit him! It smacked him good. He said there was blood everywhere. On the gun, on his clothes, on the quad, on the chorny, etc. Everytime his heart would beat, it would shoot an arch of blood from his forehead and cover whatever was in front of him, then continue to run down his nose. He was able to tie a bandana around his head to stop the bleeding.
Snicker
About this time, the land owner came by. They carried on a conversation and did not talke about the blood that was everywhere, but I am sure that the land owner was now more than a little nervouse about having this guy shooting around his cattle!
He got home and Mom thought he should go in for stitches (he of course refused) and she threatened to take his hunting rights away (kidding of course). They went to Church the next day and she was sure people would ask him about it. He said he would just tell anyone who asked that she had hit him again
Anyway, he walked over to a bunch of his buddies. They looked at him and said:
Scope bite?
He said:
Yep
End of conversation.
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 09:51:28 AM
I am starting to feel the call of the hippo... I wonder if they have any on the Savuli consession and if so, if any are available on quota... I think I'll check this out.
Post by: LittleJohn on September 01, 2011, 10:22:15 AM
Looked like a good time. And yes Libby is a great place to live.
If you are ever in the area again I will show ya around the Cabinets
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 12:24:29 PM
Jay put on a good event. Well thought out, creative, lots of fun, and very safe.
I love your range too. having 500 yards is a real treat.
I'll ping you next time I head out. Would love to see more of the cabinets
Post by: jordanramos_79 on September 01, 2011, 01:40:21 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 01, 2011, 01:45:12 PM
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 01:50:08 PM
You cannot ship firearms in advance, you have to bring them with you on the plane. There are some costs, but minimal.
I went through a permit expeditor last time. I think it was around 100 dollars-might be more now- and they took care of all the import paperwork. http://www.riflepermits.com/ (http://www.riflepermits.com/)
I plan to use them, or a service like them, again. They were GREAT. We also were encouraged to "pay" one of the South African permit inspectors at one point on the way home to. That was 20 bucks. We had to do some US side paperwork in advance of our departure, but that was just a side trip to Customs, no costs involved other than the years taken off my life in dealing with more government agencies.
When I went through in 2007, the bow folks were going through the same paperwork and permit system we were. At least that is what it seemed like. Not sure if their permits were any different.
If you are planning a bow hunt, I know folks who can answer that question for you.
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 01:51:33 PM
Post by: Rob on September 01, 2011, 01:57:24 PM
I found these instructions especially amusing:
Post by: jordanramos_79 on September 02, 2011, 12:24:45 PM
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2011, 01:36:43 PM
I mentioned above that I was getting an urge to go hunt hippo. I found out that on the Savuli consession, Hippo are not really the best option. To do this would require a 4 day extention at 700 per day, plus a move to a different camp where hippos are more common. Then the trophy fee on top of that.
BUT
I found out that I can add Crocodile to my package for just the trophy fee, and Bait (I think I need to shoot bait, that might be included).
So, I committed today to add Croc to my package.
With that option, I will cull some of the other animals I had on my list. The new list is:
First Priority:
Buffalo Bull
Second Priority:
Croc
Third Priority:
Waterbuck
Giraffe
Fourth Priority:
Bushbuck.
If I fill all those tags, I'll be a very happy camper.
Croc is considered the most difficult shot in Africa as the target (brain) is about the size of a golf ball, and the angles are odd. Also, if you don't anchor them on the bank with your first shot, then the chances of loosing the animal are nearly 100%.
I'll do some research, but I believe the best practice is to shoot brain first, take a second shot ASAP into the neck, and then do a third shot into the hips.
I was told to expect lizards in the 11 foot range in this area. that is a medium sized croc so no monsters, but good enough for me.
very excited about this change in direction.
Post by: h20hunter on September 12, 2011, 01:40:11 PM
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2011, 03:26:42 PM
If I am lucky enought ot connect and kill one, then I'll probalby do the following:
1. European on the skull
2. wall mount, coming out of the wall at a 45 degree angle with one front leg showing on one side, and just behind the head on the other side. (molds made of the teeth so I can have the skull mount.
3. Rest of the hide tanned so I can do something with it... Boots would be cool, as would a rifle case. Perhpas a floor rug.
Post by: h20hunter on September 12, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2011, 04:48:43 PM
Post by: Rob on September 19, 2011, 09:43:09 AM
What to do about bullets.
Once again I am putting way too much thought into bullet selection.
PROJECT #1-Playing with 4 traditional bullets
For the buff gun, I have been playing with and getting good results from 4 bullets. I intend to select two for the trip. A solid and an expander. The bullets I am playing with are:
-500 grain Swift A frame
-500 grain Barnes TSX FB
-500 Grain Barnes Banded solid
-480 Grain Woodleigh Hydrostatic stabilized Solid
These are all shooting about 2400 FPS and they all group well at 100 yards.
Over the weekend I decided to try an experiment. I did a four shot group with one of each rounds. See photo:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FIMG_1449.jpg&hash=d380ce2c7a7f4f9b3b4c3fd187dcb7870a1d95ae)
A 3.25 inch group is not exactly what I would call a good thing-I have been getting 3-4 shot groups of 1 inch to 2.25 inches at the 100 yard mark using a single bullet style. Given that my shooting will probably be at 50 yards or less, 3.25 inches is not horrible. Id still rather see it down to around 2 inches at 100 yards.
I think I need to slow down the Woodleigh a little to see if I can get smaller groups. That will be the next plan
PROJECT #2- Cutting Edge Bullets
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/ (http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/)
I have been eyeing these bullets for some time. I finally ordered some on Friday that I will play with. Basically, CEB makes a solid and expanding bullet pair that are supposed to both have the same POI. I ordered a set of 480 grain solids and the corresponding 450 grain NonCon expanding bullet.
Here is where it gets interesting.
Unlike a traditional expanding bullet, where you measure success by expansion and weight retention, these expanding bullets are designed to lose their petals upon penetration. The petals continue to tumble and penetrate, spreading out in a star like pattern, while the core of the bullet behaves like a solid and penetrates in a straight line.
So you get the best of both worlds. Very cool concept and it has been proven in the field in Africa.
Michael458 in the Accurate Reloading forum has done EXTENSIVE testing on this both at his private range, as well as in the field. For more than you ever wanted to know, read through his thread (the CEB bullets start somewhere in the middle of the 180+ pages of thread!)
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911)
Michael tests in wet newspaper. He places what he calls witness cards every 4 inches in the column of paper. He can then pull out the cards and see cross sections of the wound channel. Here is one of his cards I pulled from the Cutting Edge web site.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F_458_NonCon_terminals01.jpg&hash=e4240e732db8d715c2bfd945431079d71224a59c)
Anyway, I cant wait to play with these bullets!!! I ordered some in 458 cal, 375 cal, and a small bore that I plan to see if I can get a load worked up in time for my upcoming Pronghorn trip.
PROJECT #3-reseating and crimping (NERD ALERT! Skip this section if you bore easily)
So I have been thinking a lot about the impact recoil has on shells in the magazine. First here is some info I have learned (probably a penetrating insight into the obvious for everyone else, but I am a slow learner and its my thread so there!)
Rule #1: Mass wants to stay put. So if an object is not part of the gun, or attached in such a way as it is unmovable relative to the gun, it will start to move after the gun does.
Rule #2: Speaking in terms of a time curve, Recoil starts suddenly and sharply, and then reduces slowly as it is absorbed by your body. i.e.:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Fimpulse.jpg&hash=9b6c8c348349e6f726476b52b127d80d523bccb8)
I base these two rules on a couple experiences I have had over the past few months.
First: As detailed above, when shooting my 375 HH with the scope rings not fully engaged on the bases, or quite tight enough, the scope moved forward. I would have thought the scope would have moved rearward. However, because the scope was not secure, and the majority of the impact occurs in the beginning of the recoil curve, not the end, the scope moved forward.
Second: I was shooting my 45/70 Government Revolver a while back, and I unloaded the revolver after taking a shot or two. When I did, I noticed that the bullets had moved forward in the case a good 1/10th of an inch (even though they were well crimped with a lee factory crimp die!). This was caused by the heavy recoil. When a shell is inserted into the cylinder, it is prevented from passing through the cylinder by the rim on the case. This rim effectively makes the brass part of the gun from a recoil perspective. The bullet however is not as securely fastened to the brass so when the gun and brass move rearward, the bullet wants to stay put, and moves forward in the case (or the case moves out from under the bullet).
Third: While shooting my 300 WSM at Boomershoot last April, I noted that if I removed a shell from the magazine that was in the magazine during a firing, the nose of my match king bullets were roughed up and marred. Because the cartridge is not secured to the gun (as it is with a revolver) the gun effectively crashes into the nose of the bullet upon recoil. This could move the bullet rearward in the case!
So this is what I have found:
1. Cartridges that are in a firearm that are secured with a rim, or otherwise held static relative to the gun when fired (revolvers, double rifles), will tend to see the bullet travel forward in the brass due to the brass essentially moving out from under the bullet during the recoil process.
2. Cartridges that are loose in a magazine (Tubular, box, etc) and are not held static relative to the gun when fired (bolt action rifles, lever rifles, etc) will tend to see the bullet pushed further into the brass due to the bullet nose crashing into the front of the magazine (or other bullets in the case of a tubular mag).
Since I am shooting from bolt action box mags, this will impact how I crimp. I want to crimp into the canaleur (SP?) such that the leading edge of the case mouth is touching the forward edge of the canaleur. That way, if the bullet starts to move rearward upon striking the front of the magazine after the first shot, it will have to overcome the lip of the canaleur before it can be pushed further into the case.
I started putting some time thinking on this topic after the Montana Big Bore shoot. As mentioned above, my rifle failed on me during the charging buffalo scenario. The failure occurred while trying to chamber a follow up round after firing my first shot. I was firing a shell I did not re-load (got a good deal on some loaded 450 Dakota brass so I jumped on it and wanted to shoot it up to get the brass).
I did not inspect the shell prior to shooting it (my bad), and upon extraction you can see where the lip of the brass caught on the chamber wall while feeding. See photo:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F2011-09-12_11-56-02_328.jpg&hash=b661732a92cd6373b68474d80c3942855f5c6b08)
There is also evidence on the tip of the bullet that it struck the front of the mag at some point.
My working theory on this is that one of two things happened:
-The case had a pre-existing burr on the lip that caught while trying to feed
-the first shot pushed the bullet into the case, disrupted the crimp and somehow warped the brass which caught while trying to feed.
Post by: Rob on September 21, 2011, 10:42:15 AM
1. In an effort to move the POI down to the same as the TSX and Swift A frame, I pulled bullets and reduced the loads by 7 grains each for my two solids (the 500 grain Barnes Banded Solid, and the 480 Grain Woodleigh Hydrostatic stabilized Bullet)
-The Barnes Solid I dropped from 107 grains of H4350 to 100 grains for 6 shells. I tried to reseat them so that the lip of the brass sat up against leading edge of the forward Canaleur. I was able to do this on the reduced load, but when I tried to lower the bullet for the 107 grain load, the powder was too compacted and I could not move the bullet any lower.
-The Woodleigh I dropped from 105 grains of H4350 down to 98. I also reseated the lip to the leading edge of the forward Canaleur.
2. I reseated the TSX and Swift A frames to the leading edge of the forward Canaleur.
Again, I did this for two reasons:
-reduced loads are to see if I can get the POI closer for the expanding and solid bullets I am playing with.
-Seating the bullets deeper is to see if I can keep recoil from moving the bullets in the case while in the magazine during a firing.
We shall see if this makes any difference!
Photo is of the reworked shells. From left to right:
1. 480 grain Woodliegh with 98 grains H4350
2. 500 grain Barnes Banded Solid with 100 grains H4350
3. 500 grain Barnes Banded solid with 107 grains of H4350 (note I could not seat the bulelt any deeper due to a full case)
4. 500 grain Barnes TSX FB with 107 grains of H4350
5. 500 grain Swift A Frame with 105 grains of H4350
Post by: Rob on September 27, 2011, 10:37:46 AM
I immediate hit the reloading room and started to play. I had ordered the following:
.457 Caliber
-480 grain Solid BBW#13
-450 grain NonCon HP BBW#13
.375 Caliber
-300 Grain Solid BBW#13
-275 grain Solid BBW#13
.223 Caliber
-55 Grain NonCon HP BBW#13
Note that the .457 and .223 bullets are undersized by .001. I was told this was not an issue. Also note that the .223 caliber bullets are brand new and not even offered on their website yet. I called and spoke to their engineer last week and asked him about them. He said they had just come off the line and would be available in time for my order. He also said they were experimenting with some snap in ballistic tips that are supposed to improve the BC of the bullets significantly. He offered to send me some to try out which was very cool. Rumor has it they are playing with .308 caliber bullets too
I want to use these bullets in Wyoming so my first priority was loading up some 55 grain NonCons for my 22.250. I have a 55 grain Hornady V-Max that patterns OK (in general the slow twist on my 22.250 does not favor heavier bullets). It uses 32.8 grains of Varget and measures 2.041 OAL to the Ojive (not tip).
Based on this, I loaded up 20 shells with Varget in 5 different powder weights ranging from Min to Max for a 55 grain Hornady V-Max. I had to alter the OAL measurements as the Ojive is totally different on these bullets. I picked a seating depth that:
- Was about the same as what I was seeing for HP bullets for other rounds
- Was just inside the most forward crimping band on the bullet.
- Allowed the shell to feed through the magazine and into the chamber without issues.
I also loaded up 12 more shells in three different OALs using 32.8 grains of Varget (the load my Hornady V-max liked best)
Tonight I will load up some 375 HH and 450 Dakota shells as well. I plan to taking a ½ day tomorrow and shoot these at 100 yards over a chrony to see what happens. Once I get a load nailed down, I plan to snap in the ballistic tips CEB gave me to
Here are some photos.
Photo 1: Boxed bullets
Photo 2: a line up of bullets (note the size of the hollow point)
500 grain Barnes Banded solid (.458)
480 grain CEB Solid (.458)
500 Grain Barnes TSX (.458)
450 Grain CEB NonCon HP (.485)
300 grain CEB Solid (.375)
275 Grain CEB NonCon HP (.375)
Photos 3: a loaded 22.250, a 450 grain CEB NonCon in .458, a 55 grain NonCon in .223
Photo #4: A .458 CEB NonCon with a .223 55 grain Non Con in its hollow point (I was bored)
Photo #5: 55 grain Hornady V-Max next to a 55 grain CEB (see what I mean about the Ojive)
Photo #6: top view of the CEB bullets-again, look at the size of the hollow point.
Post by: Rob on September 29, 2011, 04:03:43 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Ftable1.jpg&hash=0aa31aae0afb2e242017701148b8a6c6d394a6af)
When loading I noticed some interesting things about the bullets.
First, I took 10 of the 300 grain .375 caliber solids and measured the overall length, and weighed them. They came to +/- .001in in length, and +/- 0.1 grains in weight (my scale only goes to 1/10 of a grain). That is the most consistent I have seen with bullets including Barnes TSX and Sierra Match kings. The consistency in length made seating to a consistent overall length a breeze.
Second thing I noticed occurred when I loaded up the 450 Dakota rounds. The CEB bullets I chose were .457 in diameter. This is .001 undersized. Not a big deal in terms of shooting, but it did make a difference when seating the bullets. Basically, the case neck does not grab the bullet as tightly.
I had originally planned to load 100 and 105 grain loads of H4530 to see what kind of accuracy and velocities I would get (I am getting ~2400 fps with the other bullets and those charges). 105 grains of H4350 in a 450 Dakota is pretty compressed. Infact, it is so compressed that I was unable to fully seat the Cutting edge bullets to the proper OAL. I would run the shell through the die, the powder would compress, and then, because the bullets were undersized and moved up and down the case neck pretty easily, the powder would spring back up and raise the bullet about .1 inches above my target OAL. I was forced to drop the load to 102 grains to allow the bullets to seat properly. Also; due to the under-sizing of the bullets, the bullets could be spun in the case and plucked by hand (they would not fall out but with a little wiggling, they could be extracted by hand). Once the crimp was applied, the bullets no longer spun or moved in any way. This made for a somewhat frustrating seating process.
The 375 HH bullets loaded with zero issues. Same with the 22.250 bullets.
Loads in hand, I hit the range. Here I had a very mixed bag of results. Lets start with the bad news. Loads for the 22.250. (note, all tests were done at 100 yards, from a bench, 65 degrees with 1-3 mph winds coming from the right side)
I have very high hopes for these. Even though my gun (1:14 twist) does not like heavier bullets, I found a load that shoots a 55 grain Hornady V Max at about 1.5 MOA. (It shoots about 1 MOA using 40 grain Hornady VMax). I had loaded some variations of this load using the CEB bullets. I fired a set of 4 off (34.6 grains of Varget). I shot 2 rounds and did not see where they hit on the paper. I fired two more, and finally saw what looked to be two pair of touching holes about 1 inch apart, but quite low. No big deal, I can move the scope and for all appearances these were shooting better than the Hornady Vmax. I was getting excited!
I adjusted the scope, and took 4 more shots with the 33 gr of Varget loads. I looked and looked for the holes, and finally, way up in the upper left side I saw more sets of 2 holes, however they were about 3 inches apart. This was quite a difference with only a one grain drop in powder.
Someone called a cease fire so I took advantage of this and ran down to look at the holes. Wow. Clearly something was wrong. I found 7 holes in the paper, and one in the wood cross beam above the target. What I had thought were double punches, were in-fact, elongated holes with a tear in the 10 to 12oclock position. See photo:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Frangedaykeyhole.jpg&hash=474677d06b2a106412eb7f7a695741fccb52fa79)
My groups were actually more like 12 to 14 inches at 100 yards, not 1-3 as I thought.
I shot a fast group of 3 with my 55 grain Hornady V Max bullets to make sure it was not my scope that was screwed up. I got a group about 2 inches (the gun shoots better than that, I was just testing a theory so I did not put much time into the group) These holes were nice and crisp
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Frangedayhvm.jpg&hash=d281e0fd27ba55e203a0e15ccd4579973dbe8f24)
I got to looking at them and I am 99% sure that due to the huge variation in group size from a known good gun, and the odd shaped holes, I have some keyholing going on.
I looked up the definition of keyholing and found this:
keyhole or keyholing: Refers to the shape of the hole left in a paper target by a bullet fired down a gun barrel which has a diameter larger than the bullet or who fails to properly stabilize the bullet. A bullet fired in this manner tends to wobble or tumble as it moves through the air and leaves a "keyhole" shaped hole in a paper target instead of a round one.
Given these are .223 diameter bullets rather than .224, and given the slow twist of my rifle, I think this is exactly what is happening. So the bullets are sound, just not ones I can use in my rifle. If they come out with a .224 caliber, I will be all for trying them out again.
Also- it is worth noting that the velocities were quite consistent for my loads with no more than 64 FPS variance for each 4 shot set.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Ftable2.jpg&hash=37fa9b09f340adeacfa46ae6cce7b8aff1f7f08b)
On to the 450 Dakota. I consider this OK news. The good news is, the 450 Dakota rounds shot with about the same degree of accuracy as my other loads; 1.5 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. All these made nice crisp holes so there was no keyholing even though they are undersized. By .001 just like the bullets I shot from the 22.250.
The bad news is, that due to the lower powder charge, I was only able to get 2,250 to 2,350 FPS out of these. Given these have a lower SD, I kinda need to at least get 2,400 fps out of them. You can see in the table below, moving to a slower lighter bullet means I drop nearly 900 Foot pounds in energy, and 12% loss in momentum.
500 grains @ 2400 fps
480 grains @ 2350fps
450 grains @ 2350 fps
Sectional Density 0.341 0.327 0.306
Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs) 6397 5888 5520
Momentum Value (lb/FPS) 171.4 161.1 151.1
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Ftable3.jpg&hash=0c6d2177d9bf6ab7d712097e0cc9494ec152a2de)
To equal the energy of the 500 grain bullets, Id need to get the 450 grainer moving at 2550 fps. And the momentum would still be lower than the 500 grain bullets.
This makes me think Ill be better served shooting either the Swift A frame or TSX as my expander, and the Woodleigh Hydrostatic Stabilized as my solid. Ill need to ponder this a while.
The great news is, Monique, my 375 HH the pickiest gun I own - LOVES these bullets. I shot 8 four shot sets on Wednesday. Groups averaged 1.1 inches in diameter and the range was 0.615 to 1.550 in size. By contrast, most of my groups with Tipped TSX, Barnes Banded solids, and Swift A frames were around 1.5 inches with a range of 0.96 inches all the way up to 2.8! (Monique is not a fan of Swift A frames, I had several 2 plus inch groups from that bullet).
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Frangeday375.jpg&hash=b40cb5041c64ec84357de3432d7860527151266f)
The even better news is, the faster the bullet moves, the better the groups seem to get. I am showing no signs of pressure at 70 grains of RL 15 so I might even bump that up a little and see if I can get those bullets moving around 2700 FPS. The 70 grain solids averaged to 2541 FPS, and the 275 grain NonCon averaged out to 2508. Very close.
The best news of all is; the groups were all very close in point of impact. This has been a major issue with this gun. Between the 67 and 70 grain powder loads, and across both bullet types, I did not see more than a 1.9 inch variance in Point of impact. This is a huge relief and burden off my back!
Post by: h20hunter on September 29, 2011, 04:09:32 PM
Post by: Rob on September 29, 2011, 04:21:41 PM
Looks like more time at the reloading bench tonight...
Post by: Rob on September 30, 2011, 09:17:19 AM
In a nut shell, he recommended a load for my 375 HH that should get me up over 2600 FPS, Advised I drop to lighter bullets in my 450 Dakota as they are a .458 caliber bullet and should seat better, and on the 22.250, he confirmed what I was thinking, wrong bullet for the gun. the long 55 grain mono metal bullets won't stabilize in a 1:14 twist barrel.
I'll post some quotes from his email below in a bit.
Post by: Rob on September 30, 2011, 09:27:33 AM
Dan indicated he was not liking the undersized bulelts for bolt guns and recommended I go to their 450 Solid/420 NonCon in .458 rather than the 480 solid/450 nonCon Combo in .457. Here is what he said regarding my concerns about dropping to lighter bullets and the associated loss of SD:
Quote
Your calculations are correct for conventional bullets and conventional thinking. However, the DGBR and DGBR-HP NonCons are very non conventional bullets and we have proven sectional density means absolutely nothing when it comes to penetration with these bullets. Think about this, our 62gr solid .223 penetrates 50 to 57 in the wet pack media. That is 2-3 times deeper than any spitzer or round nose type bullet of 250 grains or more including ours. This proves penetration has more to do with the nose profile than sectional density. The hollow point NonCons do not penetrate nearly as deep but the base still penetrates deeper than any spitzer bullet with the added devastating terminal affects. Also, when talking about energy, one must think about how much energy is transferred to the animal instead of total energy. Expended energy outside of the animal will absolutely do you no good when putting animals on the ground. I assure you our NonCon hollow points transfer much more energy to the animal than any bullet on the market even at substantially lower speeds while still producing pass through performance. Dont get me wrong, the faster they are traveling when they hit the more devastating they will be but even at slower speeds you will not have an issue with absolutely pounding the snot out of any animal down to 1600fps impact speed. You can see the difference impact speeds make on Michaels AR thread with the new 130gr .308 bullets he tested in a 308 Winchester and 300 win mag. http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/188 (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/188)
22.250
On the 22.250, he said that it is difficult to get long brass bullets to stabilize in slow twist barresl even at high velocities-and it would not be uncommon to see key holes. They dont test out of a 22.250 for that very reason. The .223 55 grain bullet is designed for a faster twist barrel like a 1:9. He also said they are testing a Solid 40 grain bullet that should work very well in a 1:14 twist barrel.
He also said they are testing .308 caliber bullets. I find this pretty exciting as I want to load some up for my 300 WM. Hopefully .338 will be next
Post by: Rob on October 10, 2011, 05:13:57 PM
Just got back from Wyoming where I was able to test out the .375 Cutting Edge Bullets in the BBW#13 NonCon HP (275 grains) on a pronghorn. Now I know, this is overkill for a pronghorn. Massive overkill. But it was one of the few places I was going to be able to test drive these bullets prior to my trip on actual game.
Here is a photo of the exit wound. This shot was fired from 110 yards and entered the back of the neck-exiting the front of the neck. The exit hole is a little over 3 inches in diameter.
I guess these NonCons are quite able to punch a hole...
Post by: h20hunter on October 10, 2011, 05:27:30 PM
Post by: Rob on November 23, 2011, 09:45:41 AM
Big Controversy on the AR board has just erupted. I think it has all wrapped up now, so I thought I’d type up a quick recap. You can read the full thread in all its ugliness here if you are so inclined. It has all the usual call to arms, pitchforks, torches, soap operas, drama, and couch side quarterbacking that one would normally expect to see from any Internet forum on a topic like this.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/7691078561/p/1
First of all, you need to know the players and their roles.
1. Client: The hunter who paid for the safari and pulled the trigger on the safari.
2. The Outfitter: (Jimba Safaris run by Wayne Dietrechsen). This is the guy who runs the actual hunting camp, has access to the hunting concession, etc.
3. The Professional Hunter (AKA the PH): In this case the PH was a guy named Tim Lamprecht. This is the “guide” who goes with the Client on the day to day hunts. He works for the Outfitter, and is accountable for making sure the client shoots animals in line with what he is allowed and wants to shoot.
4. The Booking Agent: (Adam Clements Safari Trackers) The job of the booking agent is to connect clients with outfitters. They also manage the transfer of funds. They make their money as a percentage of the daily rate charged. They do not make money on trophy fees.
So here is the situation:
Client wants to go on a Safari and get the best price for a hunt that will target Buffalo, Elephant, and Leopard. He contacts the Booking Agent, gives him the details of what he wants. The Booking agent lays out pros and cons of a few different hunts and they choose Jimba Safaris in Zimbabwe as the Outfitter. Expected hunt will run about 30K. Adam had some concerns with one of the PH’s at Jimba (Tim) and Specifically told Wayne that he was not to be in contact with his clients as there have been complaints in the past that he was lazy, rude and generally not a good PH to hunt with. Wayne agrees.
Client goes on the trip in Mid September. He posts a request for assistance on the AR forum for a hunt he feels has gone poorly. Essentially, he states:
-He shot an old Kudu past it’s prime (read this as smaller rack, but old animal. This is considered a good trophy in African terms). They used the truck to run it down and cut it off so they could make the shot. (not considered an ethical practice.)
-He shot what I would call an OK impala
-He shot a leopard that was pretty good.
-he shot a bushbuck from a boat (this is illegal in Zim).
-He shot an elephant (more on this in a moment)
The Outfitter went against the Booking Agent’s requirement and had Tim be the PH for the Client. This was told to the Client before he left the US, but he did not let the booking agent know. True to expectations, the Client was NOT impressed with the PH. Complaints included poor pre-baiting for Leopard (baits not correctly covered to prevent vulture raids), Moody - Would get angry if he missed shots. Would stop speaking to him, etc, pressuring him to go fishing rather than hunting, etc. He described him as Jeckle and Hyde. One thing EVERYONE agrees on is that the PH was horrible.
Now let’s get to the crux of the controversy. The elephant. The Client claims, that while chasing Buffalo, they encountered an Elephant. The PH told him to shoot the Elephant so he did. I am not going to post the photos, as I don’t think that is my place, but you can see them on page one of the thread linked at the start of this post.
Now I assume there are not many Elephant hunters on this forum. I myself an not an elephant hunter. But I have been to a zoo, and I’d like to think that even a newbie like me could tell that this elephant is a calf.
No I realize that proportionally small elephants and large elephants have a tusk to body size ratio that is similar. However, good grief! Elephants are judged based on pounds of ivory. The area he hunted in was not known for big bulls, but 25-40 pound bulls were reported to be reasonable expectations. A quick search of the African hunting reports would yield photos that will show how small the elephant pictured was. This calf had tusks in the 10 pound range.
<<armchair quaretback warning>>
Who is to blame for this? I maintain that the PH holds 80% of the accountability. It is his job to show an inexperienced hunter the difference between a good bull, and a bad bull. If he says “take it” then the hunter should have a reasonable expectation that it is a decent sized animal. I maintain (and I think I am in a minority) that the Client holds at least 25% accountability. He should be headed to Africa with a general idea of what a good animal is relative to a poor animal. Now if they were Kudu hunting, and taking a shot at 150 yards, I would not expect the Client to know the difference between a 55 inch kudu and a 40 inch kudu. However I would expect them to know a 20 inch kudu is sub par.
Elephants are usually shot at between 25 and 75 yards. Based on the photos, I’d say this is also a very close shot. I cannot imagine how the client and the PH did not know this was a calf.
<<End of armchair Quarterback warning>>
OK. Client returns to US. I am not clear on this, but it seems as though about 4 weeks after the hunt, he contacted the Booking agent to complain about the Calf. (who wouldn’t??). The booking agent finds out for the first time that the PH was swapped out AND that the Client knew of the swap but never told the booking agent. While in contact with the booking agent, the client posts the story on AR. Many folks call for a lynch mob to come take out the Booking Agent, the PH and the outfitter. A few attack the Client.
Meanwhile, Adam is in contact with the Outfitter trying to work out a refund. The trophy fee for a bull elephant is 10K. While talking to the Outfitter and trying to negotiate a deal, he finds out the following newsflash:
]On the day the Elephant was shot, they also shot and wounded a Buffalo. After tracking it for a while they gave it up for lost. There was a government game scout with them. The Govt. requires that Outfitter charge the clients for wounded game. The charge for a Buff is 3K. The Client then bribes the game scout 300 bucks to look the other way. (the buff was found dead a few weeks later). Both of these points were verified by the Client. This next comment is hearsay from what appears to be a disreputable Outfitter, but he said the client was really mad about the Buffalo and just wanted to kill something. So they shot the elephant.
So, now we find out that the Client has done a series of dumb things. Several illegal.
1. Did not inform his booking agent until after the hunt that the PH he was to keep clear of was assigned to him before he even left US soil (dumb)
2. Wounded a buffalo and did not pay the trophy fee (Illegal)
3. Bribed a game scout to look the other way (illegal)
4. Shot a Calf Elephant on the advice of the PH (Dumb)
5. Ran down a Kudu with a vehicle (ethically questionable)
6. Shot a Bushbuck from a boat (illegal)
While all this was happening (or perhaps a few weeks prior) the booking agent transferred funds to pay for the trophy fees of the hunt. I am not sure why this happened. It is not clear. I’d expect a booking agent to hold onto the funds while disputes are still in question. My only thought on this is:
1. The hunter did not bring up the issues for several weeks after return, and that the money was transferred while the Outfitter thought all was well.
2. The money was transferred by someone in the Booking agents office by accident (right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing).
By posting the issue in public prior to resolution, the booking agent claims (and I tend to agree) that the outfitter saw the controversy about his company, got mad as the full story was not being told, and basically told the Booking agent to go pound sand. No refund would be issued.
In the end, the booking agent agreed to do the following:
1. Refund his commission to the Client (1800)
2. Arranged the option for the Client to go back to the same outfitter for a make-up hunt. 12.5K all inclusive including trophy fees.
3. 5,000 credit towards another Safari
<<armchair quarterback alert!>>
In my opinion:
1. The Client is either incredibly naοve, or crooked, or trying to exploit publicity to get a better deal.
2. The PH is a total scumbag.
3. The outfitter has real integrity issues
4. The Booking agent went above and beyond to try and make this right in spite of 1,2, and 3, however I am left wondering why he was doing business with Jimbo in the first place, and why the funds were transferred prior to Client agreement.
5. The client should not have posted in the public forum what was happening until the situation was resolved, or negotiations had stalled. Neither was the case.
<<End of armchair Quarterback warning>>
Now, why am I concerned with this controversy you may ask?
Well, I booked my Safari through Adam Clements Safari Trackers. I think after looking at all this, I feel better having gone through this booking agent than if I had gone it alone. I believe that the Client got better service, and better opportunities once things went south than if he had booked directly. As for my two concerns with the Booking Agent (Why Jimbo, and why were the funds released) I think both of these are mitigated:
• I did extensive research on Terry Anders (my outfitter) and his prior hunts and have found happy clients.
• I got a personal verbal recommendation for the from a well-respected outfit that hunts on the Save while at the SCI show in January.
• I met Terry and found him to be pleasant to talk with.
• My booking agent will be at the same camp we will be at 1 month before we arrive so I can get a first-hand assessment of the camp and operation.
• I plan to communicate with my booking agent prior and immediately after the hunt. If there are any issues that would warrant holding funds, I will have given him notice of this well before it is time to transfer funds.
So what started out as a controversy that had me feeling a little uncomfortable with the booking agent I had chosen to work with, ended with me having even more comfort and confidence that he will fight for me should things go awry.
Post by: jager on November 23, 2011, 10:06:55 AM
I would think that the hunter would have to bear some of the responsibility for shooting that calf. I mean come on...!
I may have more comments later... :chuckle:
Post by: Rob on November 23, 2011, 10:32:56 AM
The PH and Outfitter should take the majority of the blame. The Booking agent took it in the shorts both from a reputation perspective, and financially. The Client is taking the plea of ignorance, but I am having somewhat of a hard time with that.
Tragic all the way around regardless.
Post by: Rob on November 28, 2011, 03:11:07 PM
I'd like to increase the charge to get the speed up a little bit. I tested 73 grains in the Solid, and 72 grains in the NonCon and I am happy to say, that while the primers are starting to get pretty flat, there are no signs of excessive pressure.
I have not chrony'd the load yet, but past chrony work has shown that for every grain of powder I add, I get an increase of 30 FPS. Based on this I should see about 2600 FPS out of these loads. I am not sure I can push this load any faster as I think I'll start seeing craters or primer extrusion.
I'll need to test these for accuracy too, but I think they will stay accurate. Assuming they stay accurate, this will give me an 8% increase in Muzzle Velocity (4164 to 4504 foot pounds), and a 4% increase in Momentum. Cutting Edge said they were getting 2600 FPS out of 68 grains of I 4064 so I may give that a go next. I'd like to see these over 2700 fps if possible. This will increase my ME by 17% to 4857 foot pounds, and my momentum by 8%. All this gives a bullet that hits harder and penetrate deeper. I suppose they shoot flatter as well, but since I am told that all my shooting will be between 25 and 75 yards with a long shot being closer to 150, I dont think that matters much.
Post by: Rob on January 02, 2012, 10:55:38 PM
Only a couple updates.
1. I am 99% sure that I will be shooting the Cutting Edge Bullet BBW#13s in Solid and HP configs on the hunt from both my 375 HH and 450 Dakota. I pretty much have the 375 HH loads ready, although I may try to see if I can increase the velocity without decreasing the accuracy. In a disturbing development, Barnes recently suspended their manufacturing of RN solids due to come conflicts with the BATFE and some ridiculous concern that they could be used in handguns as AP round Silly BATFE agents! Anyway, in fear that this irrational stance could spread to other manufactures bullets, I picked up enough to allow me to mess with loads, bring to Africa, and have some left over to spare. Anyway, Ill spend some time over the next couple months working up loads for these two bullets. The goal will be: Develop a load for the 420 grain BBW#13 NonCon HP and 450 Grain BBW#13 Solid that are at least 2400 FPS, have Points of Impact at 50 and 100 yards that are +/- 1 inch of each other across both ranges, and group sizes of less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards.
2. After about 8 months of waiting, I got a Christmas Present from Leupold! Or rather, Bethany (My 450 Dakota) got an unexpected Christmas Present from Leupold
I had been working with Leupold to get, via the HEI program, a VX6 1-6x24 scope for Bethany. I had seen a prototype at the January SCI show in 2011. I ordered one via the program, but they were not available yet. Initially they were due middle of the year, then in September, then November, and finally Q1 2012.
All year I have been listening to Bethany whine and snivel about how she does not like her current VX3 1.5-5x24 scope and wanted the new VX6. You know how women are Something about:
-All the other rifles in the cabinet who are ANYBODY, all have shiny new Leupolds on them
-How it offered true 1x magnification at low power that allowed for rapid target acquisition at close range
-How amazingly fast the target acquisition was with true 1x magnification which allows for the shooter to see front iron sight in full focus at the same time things 500 feet in the distance are also focus!
-How it can be easily used with both eyes open
-And most importantly, how TOTALLY much better the field of view would be given that at just 5 yards a full 6 feet is in the scopes FOV! And furthermore how at 100 yards her VX3 only has a measly 68 foot FOV whereas the VX6 has almost twice the FOV with an UNREAL 114 feet! More than any other Leupold scope!
-It also made her look fat (her words, not mine, I think she is beautiful)
Basically, If I really loved her, Id get her a VX6. Sheesh! Such a princess
Anyway, I came home from work on the 22nd, and there was a package on my doorstep! Merry Christmas from Leupold! Finally there can be peace in the gun cabinet. I pulled out the 30mm quick release Tally rings that had been sitting in a drawer for 6+ months waiting for this day, lapped them and fit Bethany with her new scope. Victoria (a more practically minded 505 Gibbs that was up until now, scope-less) was the proud recipient of Behthanys Vx3. I simply love the new scope. I had a rather difficult time getting it sighted in though.
My in-laws were in town for Christmas and wanted to learn to shoot-having never fired rifles before. So the morning of Christmas Eve we headed over to Kenmore for a couple hours. I brought Bethany who was sporting her new scope. Once I got them set up on the .22 lr, and a 204 ruger, I snuck in a few rounds with Bethany. First shot at 100 yards was not on paper. I did it again with the same results. I removed the bolt and sighted down the bore, and when I moved to the scope, it too was pretty much on the bulls-eye. I took aim at the bottom of the target and proceeded to cover the entire target with mud splatter from where the 6,500 foot pounds of energy generated by the Barnes RN solid hit the dirt below the target I took a few more shots and finally gave up for the day since I really needed to focus on the in-laws and we were on a timeline (the Little Lady arranged for all of us to catch a play at the 5th Avenue theater - Cinderella, oh Joy! It was not bad actually ) Anyway, I got back to the range the following weekend and tried again-only at 50 yards this time. First shot, again, did not hit the target. I took a second shot low and saw dirt move in front of the target. Assuming I was low, I took aim at the top of the target holder and finally found the bottom of the target. So it was about 25 inches low at 50 yards. Two more shots and I was in the bull. I moved to the 100 yard range and adjusted down 3 inches to be dead on at 100 yards.
The first photo is the VX3, the second one is the VX6.
So now I am all set to get moving on load development!
Post by: fvh40 on January 03, 2012, 12:07:11 AM
I usualy start at 25m and then move back, don't waste expensive amo. My :twocents:
Ferdi
Post by: Rob on January 03, 2012, 08:45:41 AM
I have just never had a rifle I bore sighted not even hit paper at 100 yards before. (and my range does not have a 25 yard rifle range either so 50 or 100 yards were my only close range options)
The ammo is not cheap, but I do reload which makes it affordable. There is no way I could afford it if I bought pre-loaded ammo. The only place I can find it for sale pre-loaded charges 11 dollars per shell. I was shooting A-frames. Bullet costs $1.28, powder runs about 42 cents, primer is about 3 cents, making a reloaded round about $1.75.
More than say a 30.06, but still pretty affordable over all. I'll be more conservative with the Cutting Edge Bullets as they run closer to 2.50 per shell loaded.
Ferdi, any chance you will be at the Dallas Safari Club show next weekend? I am headed there with my Dad.
Post by: fvh40 on January 04, 2012, 03:46:35 AM
Rob,I have to much work to do with my Buffalo and Sable herds that I won't make it to the Shows this year, would have been nice to meet some members there
Ferdi
Post by: MidgetIdjit on January 04, 2012, 10:20:30 PM
So it was about 25 inches low at 50 yards. Two more shots and I was in the bull. I moved to the 100 yard range and adjusted down 3 inches to be dead on at 100 yards.
I didn't realize you had to adjust nearly 50 MOA to get on target! I figured you were shooting at your typical 3" targets and missing. ;)
Something's not right there. Methinks that the new scope is allergic to Bethany. Perhaps it should find a new home. Say on a 350RM?
Post by: Rob on January 05, 2012, 12:24:18 AM
So it was about 25 inches low at 50 yards. Two more shots and I was in the bull. I moved to the 100 yard range and adjusted down 3 inches to be dead on at 100 yards.
I didn't realize you had to adjust nearly 50 MOA to get on target! I figured you were shooting at your typical 3" targets and missing. ;)
Something's not right there. Methinks that the new scope is allergic to Bethany. Perhaps it should find a new home. Say on a 350RM?
Letmethinkaboutthatforasecond,no thanks!
Post by: Rob on January 08, 2012, 05:41:43 PM
More on that later. Next post is my notes from the event.
Left to right: Me, Terry Anders, Mark Young, my Dad.
Post by: Rob on January 08, 2012, 05:42:12 PM
Meeting notes from Dallas Safari Club Convention
Thursday January 5th, 2012
10 am to 11:30 AM: Mark Young of ACST and Terry Anders of Savuli Safaries
Shawn Kennedy of Gracy Travel (12:00 pm & 3pm
General Notes
Weather
Expect Hot 90 to 100 degree weather. (I did not ask about humidity-I will do so).
This is the end of the rainy season so we can expect to have the hottest weather, and the least amount of vegetation.
Terrain
Terrain is rolling hills with valleys and a few rugged mountains in the middle.
Roads in this concession are a bit different than others. Most concessions are set up in grids. On Savuli, however, due to both the terrain and fact that the roads were created by cattle ranching activities, they tend to meander around a lot more.
The terrain allows Savuli to hold more water during the hot season so many animals that are not found there in the cooler weather are found there in high numbers in September/October.
Once the rains start, many animals leave Savuli and head to the flatter plains land.
The high mountains on the land will hold Kudu and Zebra due to good grazing grasses that grow there.
Typical day
Typical Agenda:
o Get up pre-dawn and have a light breakfast
o Hunt till 10 or 11 am and return to camp for lunch and a rest
During the heat of the day, the animals disappear and are difficult to find making hunting less productive.
o Return to the field in the afternoon and hunt till dark.
Night hunts can be done if desired.
Videography
Terry can arrange for a professional Videographer to tape our hunts if wanted.
Cost is 200 per day per videographer. Can be shared with different folks if desired.
Clothing
Due to the heat, cotton is best.
Heavier cotton is nice so that it deflects brush and thorns better.
Wear light tans / olives-dark Olive is too dark for the vegetation this time of year (per Terry)
Terry wears Camo so bringing one camo shirt would not be a bad thing.
Long sleeves that can be rolled up are nice
Bugs
No tsetse flies
There are some mosquitos-not lots of them though
Malaria pills are good of course
We will be sleeping under mosquito nets.
Side trips
If there is a desire to do a side trip, Terry can arrange one for us.
Suggestion was Victoria falls.
o Drive back to Bulawayo, then drive another 5-6 hours to Vic Falls.
o From there, spend a couple days of sightseeing (Devils pool is accessible this time of year)
o Fly back to Jo-Berg from Vic Falls.
We did not price this out as we were not interested, however I would assume there would also be a flight change fee to do this since our flights are booked..
Firearms and ammunition
Not necessary to bring many solids
o They will probable only be used for Buffalo and possibly Giraffe.
o As stated in the Varmint Section, consider a few solids if you want to take and mount any of the small game like varmints or members of the tiny ten.
450 Dak/375 HH combo is fine for Rob.
416 Rigby/7mm SAUM is fine for Jerry.
Mark feels the 350 Rem Mag Novelty cartridge will do wonders with a 225 to 250 grain bullet on plains game.
Not sure what Rays second rifle will be, but I stated I thought it might be a 308. Terry said that would be perfect.
It is perfectly acceptable to bring 3 rifles
Ammo must be limited to 5 Kilos total
There is a shotgun and shells in camp we can use if we want too.
Notes on animals
Trophies
Per Mark, we may want to consider having some of the skins tanned in Africa.
For example, tanning the Giraffe skin there will significantly reduce the weight for shipping it back to the States.
I would want assurances that they tan skins, not pickle them and I would want to talk this out with Huffaker.
Buffalo
Expect to walk 4-5 miles a day maximum
Buffalo will be in the lower valleys and flatter areas.
Terry seemed to prefer we use expanding bullets for first shot-if not all shots.
Crocodile
Expect shots as far as 100 yards
Any firearm that you can shoot accurately will be fine including the 375 HH
Use expanding bullets
The process is:
o They contact locals from the populated areas, and find out where the Crocodile sightings have been
o They go to the areas that are said to have big ones and set out baits
Big is relative to the villagers-They tend to view any croc as big
o If the areas with the crocs are in sparsely populated region, they will leave trail cams on the bait.
o They return and either check the cams, or look at tracks to determine if a hunt-able croc is present and hunt accordingly.
o 10 to 11 foot crocs are the expected sizes
Nyala
These are hunted by stalking them along the river banks.
They are not nocturnal.
Varmints (Caracal, civit, Genet, Porcupine, Honey Badger, etc).
These are strictly animals of opportunity
Mostly hunted at night with lights by driving around or putting out bait.
Caracal are very rare to see and do not bait well
If you have lights that you wish to bring, Id recommend doing so.
They have truck based spotlights if needed
Jerry has a scope mounted green light that Terry indicated would be an asset to look for animals off the road.
If you want to shoot varmints with a plan to mount them, and dont bring a varmint gun (or even if you do), and you may want to consider solids as they do less damage to the pelts.
Terry was happy to set up night hunts for us.
Hyena
Good chance to get a Hyena if you want one.
They are mostly baited in at night
These are quota animals and he only gets one
If anyone wants it, best to speak up ASAP, otherwise it may not be available in October.
Getting There
Travel Schedules
We need to plan to arrive in Bulawayo as early as possible on the 30th of September.
We will take the 5-6 hour drive from there to camp, and, time allowing, sight in so we can hunt on the 1st of October.
For our arrival flight, we will want to check our bags to Jo Berg as we need to collect them and take them to our rooms the first night.
On the return trip we should check them all the way back to our final destination so we do not need to mess with them in Jo-Berg on the way home.
Due to our stopover in Jo-Berg on the way to Zimbabwe, we will need to get letters of invitation from Terry to allow us through customs in South Africa.
o Terry is aware of the need for this and can take care of it-but we will need to make sure this happens.
o I am checking with Mark to determine the best way to get these.
We will stay at the hotel in the Jo-Berg Airport so we do not need ground transportation. We can walk to it.
Our flights will all route to Atlanta where we will meet up and take the long trip to Jo-Berg.
Economy Plus will give us an extra 4 inches of leg room, and seats that recline further. $320 dollars round trip for the upgrade.
Gracy Travel representatives will meet us at the gate in Jo-Berg
o They will escort us through Security and clear our rifles.
o I think they do this for the check in the next morning as well (need to check on this).
Gracy Travel has an emergency phone. Should anything go wrong, anytime of day, we are asked to call this # for assistance. (i.e. trouble checking rifles, lost luggage, canceled or rescheduled flights, etc)
I recommend checking our cell plans to see if they will work in Jo-Berg and Bulawayo so we have it for emergency purposes.
Rifle Permits in South Africa
Gracy Travel will take care of this for us and will send us the paperwork and do the pre-clearing of our guns in South Africa
We need to get the paperwork to them no later than 4 month prior to our departure. (i.e. May 28th).
There is a form that we need to get filled out at the Department of homeland Security. This must be done in person. There is an office in DT Seattle.
We need to send in payment for this at the time we return the forms (135 per person with rifles, plus 80 for meet and escort services that can be split 4 ways)
Insurance
Three levels of coverage. Note that the costs below may not be 100% accurate as we did not look at them too closely. They also vary based on age.
o Cancelation insurance of airline plus medical evac and care R170, J 460)
Since we booked more than 30 days after our safari was booked, no pre existing conditions are counted for us.
Booking this early is advisable as should anything occur to make you need to cancel for medical reasons, it will not be covered if it happens prior to you booking
o Cancelation of hunt insurance (illness inability to travel ue to death of immediate family member, terrorist act (not military, Civil or political unrest). This was about 1,000 for Jerry
o Change your mind insurance for any reason you can cancel and get ½ the trip back (cant recall if it was airfare only, or deposit) another 1,000
Post by: Rob on January 09, 2012, 12:46:32 PM
Ray, his dad and I will leave Seattle at 9 am on Friday 9/28. From there we will meet up with Dad in Atlanta. We will leave Atlanta at 8:35 PM and fly non-stop to Johannesburg South Africa, arriving at 6:25pm local time.
We have arranged with Gracy travel to have them meet us at the gates and walk us through the rifle permitting process for South Africa. They will then escort us to a hotel in the airport where we will stay the night.
The next day (9/30) we will catch a 10:40 AM flight to Bulawayo Zimbabwe and land around 12:05pm. We will be met at the gate by our PH and taken on a 5-6 hour trip via truck to the hunting camp arriving around 7pm or so. If it is possible, we will sight in our rifles that night. Otherwise we will take care of that in the morning. Either way we will be hunting the morning of 10/1!
I did not really want to overnight in Jo-Berg, but should bags or rifles be delayed, it will give us a day to allow them to catch up with us so I guess that is good insurance.
Total travel time, doorstep to camp will be from about 5am Pacific on 9/28 to 9 am Pacific on 9/30, so 52 hours!
No overnight on the way home, so that trip should be, depart camp 7pm Pacific on 10/10/12, arrive home 3pm Pacific on 10/12 for a total of 40 hours
Costs:
Tickets with travel insurance: ~2950
Rifle Permits + gate meet: ~165 per person
Overnight in Jo-Berg: ~100 per person
Travel to Camp: ~400 per person
Total: $3,615 Dollars. My original estimate I think was around 3500 for all these expenses, so Thats not too bad overall.
Post by: Rob on January 09, 2012, 01:10:22 PM
This was my first trip there. I was not as impressed with the DSC show as I was with the SCI shows I have been to in Reno. Although from a functionality perspective, I got everything I needed from the show for a 20 dollar entry fee vs. the couple hundred dollar entry fee of the SCI show.
Regardless, it was a lot of fun to go. I did not take too many photos this time around. The taxidermy was good, but there were not the amazing mounts that one sees at the SCI show.
Post by: MidgetIdjit on January 09, 2012, 02:25:24 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 09, 2012, 03:15:16 PM
Malaria pills are good of courseAfrica is awesome. I don't know if you have ever been to Africa, or ever taken anti-malarial medicine. I would discourage anyone from taking Lariam. I took it three times, and after the third time, I was done with it. Fortunately, I had another course available to me.
We will be sleeping under mosquito nets.
My girlfriend continued with Lariam, and had years of depression and other issues which were not there prior to her two months of Lariam
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=19591&name=LARIAM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/oct/24/health.lifeandhealth
http://www.lariaminfo.org/support/quotes.shtml
I don't make this recommendation lightly, and I hope you take it seriously. If you have used Lariam successfully before, that is good and fortunate. I hope this helps
Post by: Rob on January 09, 2012, 04:40:57 PM
Regarding Malaria pills, I had not heard of the issues you describe. Last time I went with doxacycline and I was planning on doing the same this time. Thanks for the input.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 09, 2012, 09:01:56 PM
If your med is prescribed as an anti malarial, and the Doc is familiar with travel medicine, you should be fine. Travel med is something totally different than many doctors are familiar with, so don't be shy about consulting a specialist. King County has a good system, although not as good as in years past. The specialized Travel Medicine clinic at UWMC has been closed, and patients are now referred to the KCHD.
The thing to remember, if you feel bad on your return, to notify any Doc that you have been to Africa. It is not uncommon for the patients who unfortunately pass away from malaria in the western world to not tell their doctor that they were recently in Africa or Asia. By the time the test show a exposure to malaria (or dengue fever, TB, etc), valuable time has been lost
Post by: Rob on January 09, 2012, 09:30:39 PM
I plan to return to the Travel nurse I met with in 2007 to get ready for that trip. He was over in Juanita, and did a great job of preparing me last time.
I could not agree more - one needs to go to someone who specializes in travel. They have access to, and know how to utilize, additional resources than others.
Post by: fvh40 on January 12, 2012, 04:06:04 AM
Post by: Rob on January 16, 2012, 09:26:20 AM
Post by: Rob on January 16, 2012, 09:29:45 AM
I spent the weekend cutting foam and getting the stuff packed up. I managed to get the following in the case:
-450 Dakota
-375 HH
-Spare scope already mounted in rings
-bolts removed, and set in the foam
-Leatherman
-knife
-Toolkit (buried under the foam below the bolts)
The case weighs 47 pounds.
Post by: Rob on January 16, 2012, 09:34:16 AM
I went to Google earth, and using some maps of the SAVE, I am nearly positive I found the area we will be hunting. I marked off the boundaries with the red line. I understand there is one other place we can go the SE as well. Ill try to mark that one on the map sometime in the future.
Anyway, compared to the other parts of the SAVE, it does appear that he has a lot more topo on his concession. I see one hill on the southern border. The altitude appears to be around 1,800 feet, and the hill seems to be about 2300 feet. Not exactly a mountain by Washington Standards, but certainly by Texas standards!
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 16, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
Malaria lasts a lifetime right? I know folks who were in Vietnam and got it. They talk about having recurrences of it from time to time.
I think malaria can be asymptomatic for years with some chronic reoccurrences. I think this mostly, if not wholly, occurs in individuals who are untreated, poorly treated or used treatments in the past which are now thought to be ineffective. The treatment ability of Docs now is much better that 40 years ago.
Quite obviously, the poor make up the majority of individuals with chronic malaria. Westerners who contract malaria and are treated for it should have the parasite completely eliminated. Trouble could occur if an individual contracts the malaria parasite, but is asymptomatic for a number of years
http://phc.amedd.army.mil/PHC%20Resource%20Library/18-040-0107_Malaria[1].pdf
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 16, 2012, 10:05:32 AM
In talking to Terry, he mentioned that there were some mountains on his land. That got me to wondering, what is the elevation there, and how high are the mountains
The Cedarberg and Drakenburg Mountains, on the SW and SE coasts of SA like very cool. They don't seem to be particularly high, but look to have a lot of relief. Much like our Colorado Plateau.
Post by: Rob on January 16, 2012, 10:50:14 AM
Zimbabwe (where we are going in October) seems flatter overall.
The Save is East of Bulawayo, between Masvingo and Chipinge with the Save river bordering the east side of the consession (see map below)
Post by: fvh40 on January 30, 2012, 12:36:03 AM
I would like to hear your opinion of the Sierra Gameking sbt bullet, for reloading 375h&h.
Thank you
Ferdi
Post by: Rob on January 31, 2012, 09:01:07 AM
My opinion on them is, they are probably a fine bullet and will do the job well. If it were me, and I wanted a soft point expander, I'd probably go with the Swift A-frame.
You might want to field this question on the AR big bore forum. they might have someone with experience who can chime in.
(I am also a huge fan of Barnes Tipped TSX bullets...)
Post by: Hi-Liter on January 31, 2012, 09:45:56 AM
Anyway, you won't have a problem finding game in Zim. Keep your eyes open for the lion.
Post by: Hi-Liter on January 31, 2012, 09:53:52 AM
Post by: Rob on February 06, 2012, 03:41:40 PM
I am jealous of your in-law's ability to spend more time over there. I'd like to figure out how to do that.
I have not been to Zim before, but looking forward to it. My first and only other trip was to Namibia.
I have always been fond of Federal ammo. I reload so I don't tend to shoot factory brands much, but when I do look for or recommend factory loaded ammo, I tend to go with Federal Premium. I like how they load up the better bullets like Barnes, Nosler and bearclaw.
I have been pretty impressed with the reports on Cutting Edge Bullets so that is what I will most likely use.
Thanks for sharing the info on your in-laws. Lucky folks.
Post by: lhrbull on March 21, 2012, 04:47:26 AM
Post by: Rob on March 22, 2012, 03:34:11 PM
You will spend the trophy fee once you pull the trigger and have a bleeding animal. Assuming you collect the animal, you will then need decide what you want done to it prior to having it cleaned in the field. The manner that you skin out the animal will depend on how you are doing the mounts. options are:
1. full body mount
2. Pedestal mount
3. shoulder mount
4. rug
5. European
If you are not interested in bringing home trophies, then you can elect not to bring anything home. Or, if you want to go with minimalist, you can do European mounts only. here is a Gemsbok mount that was done for my buddies dad on our last trip to Namibia. The Europeans look good, are cheaper to ship home, and take up less room in the house.
Post by: Rob on March 22, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Dip and pack: $1,185
Shipping to the USA: $1,043
Freight Forwarding in Houston: $375
Total: $2,603
The cost to ship them to the tanner was rolled into my taxidermy costs so I cannot line item that out.
Post by: lhrbull on March 22, 2012, 09:51:26 PM
Post by: Rob on March 24, 2012, 08:16:39 AM
The PH arranged shipment from the field to the US. My taxidermist arranged for everything from the US border to my house.
It is not cheap, but I'd look into a pedestal for the Kudu. They are such spectacular animals.
Nice thing about the way they do the animals is, the skulls come back totally clean so 90% of the european work is done when they arrive.
Full body Nyala will be outstanding. My dad is going to do a half body mount-quartering out of the wall-if he is lucky enough toto connect.
-
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on March 24, 2012, 10:28:05 AM
Of all the animals over there the Nyala is #1 on my list. It will deffinatly be a Life Size.
2. Zebra. Will be a Wall Pedastal
3-4. Blue & Black Wildebeest.
5-8. One of each of the 4 different color phases of Springbuck (White, Black, Copper, Normal) All 4 will be a combination floor Pedesatal.
9. Female Lion. Will be a Life Size. Might end up being a combination piece with the Nyala or Zebra (if I do a L/S)
Post by: Rob on March 24, 2012, 06:05:36 PM
I'm really hoping Dad gets his Nyala. I expect he will. The legs and mane are so unusual that a full or half body is the only way to show them off.
I have seen some neat color phase mounts of Springbok-combining all 4 into a single clustered mount.
Interested in a lioness huh? What is the draw to a lioness? (not being critical, I just enjoy hearing what attracts folks to specific animals, and lioness is an unusual one)
Here are the quartering wall mounts I was refering to.
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on March 24, 2012, 06:54:32 PM
Post by: Rob on March 24, 2012, 07:27:25 PM
I have toyed with tuskless elephant for the same reason. They are about the same price as a bull cape buff.
If I am lucky enough to make it back for a 3rd trip though, leopard will be the target.
Would love to get a hippo some day too.
Post by: Rob on March 25, 2012, 08:40:42 PM
My buddy Kirk and his Wife have officially decided to join the trip and sent in their deposit! Kirk will hunt, but he plans to hunt with a Bow, not rifle. So that will add a new dimension to the trip.
Kirk's wife is going to come along as a non-hunting observer. They are combining this trip with some touring they want to do. He is retiring from the Marine's the end of September, and they will board a plane shortly after the ceremony. As such, they are going to join us a little late and do a 7 day hunt rather than our 10 day hunt. The plan is, they will arrive the evening of October 3rd, and hunt the 4th through the 10th.
On the 11th, they will travel from our camp to Hwange Park and spend the evening of Oct 11th, 12th, and 13th at Hwange Park on a photo Safari using a mobile camp (i.e. they will stay in luxury tents and stay in the field )- this sounds outstanding by the way!
On the Oct 14th they will go to Victoria Falls, and spend a couple days touring the falls. They will depart from Victoria Falls on the 16th and head home.
I'm very happy they have decided to come along! This brings our party to a total of 6 people - 4 hunters, two non hunters.
I am very interested to see how the bow hunting is run.
Post by: h20hunter on March 25, 2012, 08:46:30 PM
Post by: Rob on March 25, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
I expect this list to have a few more items added, and several to go away as we get closer to departure (Just 6 months out now!)
Backpack-Carry on 24 items
Book 2
Carry on Backpack 1
Copy of passport 1
Form 4457 (copies) 1
Kindel 1
Kindel Case 1
Laptop 1
Laptop charger 1
Lieca Range Finder 1
Maps 1
Movies 1
Camera 1
Noise reducing headphones 1
Power strip 1
SA currency 200 1
Shaving Kit (+ SF Deod) 1
Shot records 1
South African rifle Permits info 1
Sunglasses 1
Travel Agent contact info 1
Travel Schedule/confirmations, etc 1
USB card reader 1
Vital e-mails 1
Carry on suitcase 39 items
ACR PLB 1
Camera charger 1
Carry on Suitcase 1
Foam Ear plugs 2
Goo Chomps 12
Hunting socks (Pack) 2
Long Sleeve Safari Shirt 1
Phone Charger 1
Picture transfer cable for Camera) 1
Poly Short Sleeve T shirt (pack) 2
Russel Mocasin boots 1
Short Sleeve Safari Shirt 1
Tan brush cargo pants with zip off legs 2
Viva Starbucks instant coffee 11
Large Suitcase-Check 158 items
375 HH Ammunition (CEB NonCon 275 grain) 40
375 HH ammunition (CEB Solid 300 grain) 10
375 HH Belt Shell holder 1
450 Dakota Ammunition (CEB NonCon 450 Grain) 20
450 Dakota Ammunition (CEB Solid 480 Grain) 10
450 Dakota belt shell holder 1
Addidas Sandles 1
Backpack emergency-kit 1
Baseball hat 1
Black stuffsack/daypack REI 1
Cabelas Brush daypack 1
Cheap hunting knives for gifts 4
Cipro 1
Cloth tape measure 1
Converter 1
DEET 1
Duct Tape 1
Extra AA Batteries 6
Fenix light (PD30) with headband, extra batteries and red filter 1
Gun light 1
hand lotion 1
Hard Candy for gifts 1
Hiking Boxers (Pack) 2
Hiking Sticks 1
Large Suitcase-Check 1
Lens brush 1
Leupold compact spotting scope 1
Luggage Strap for large Suitcase 1
Malaria pills 1
Manual Predator call 1
Mesh face net 1
Olive Northface micro fleece jacket 1
Optical wipes 10
OTIS cleaning kit 1
Pipe 1
Portable Drugstore kit 1
Rino 530 (charged) 1
Safari Sticks 1
Soft knee braces with stocking 2
Tan gaiters 1
Thin Leather Gloves 1
Tick treatment spray 1
tripod: Slick 1
Wet wipes-individual wrapped for Backpack 20
Pelican Rifle Case 13 items
375 HH (Monique) 1
450 Dakota (Bethany) 1
Extra rifle scope 1
Form 4457 (copies) 1
Leatherman Skelatool (with case) 1
luggage straps for Pelican case 2
Pelican Rifle Case 1
Quail Knife with case 1
Rifle Bipod 1
Rifle Sling for Bethany 1
Rifle Sling for Monique 1
rifle tool kit (winchester) 1
Wear 12 items
Cash 1
Day Hikers 1
Hiking Boxers (Wear) 1
Hunting socks (Wear) 1
Long sleeve Cabelas safari shirt 1
Olive brimmed Hunting Hat 1
Passport 1
Phone 1
Poly Short Sleeve T shirt (wear) 1
Quick Dry zip off pants 1
REI Leather Belt 1
Travelers Checks 1
Grand Total 246 items
Post by: Rob on March 25, 2012, 08:52:31 PM
Rob.....know any of the specs on the bow?
Do you mean on the bow it'self, or specs on how the hunt will proceed?
Post by: Rob on March 25, 2012, 09:39:57 PM
I would love to have a small caliber varmint rifle with me too. I have a 223 Remington that would be nice to have with me.
I decided not to bring a third rifle when I found there was no way I could get three rifles in my Pelican case, even if I took off the scopes for transport. Well, last weekend at the Hunters Education In-service Training meeting in Yakima, I saw they were auctioning off a tuffpak rifle case.
http://www.nalpak.com/Tuffpak-1050-Gun-Case-BLACK-w-Cushioned-Handle
The Tuffpak case is a pretty cool concept. The case is hexagon shaped and kinda looks like golf clubs. It has no padding inside. The deal is, you pack your guns in regular soft cases and stuff those, and enough other stuff, into the case to keep the contents from shifting in transit. These have plenty of room in them for three scoped rifles.
I started a thread on the AR forum to see what folks thought of them. Very positive reviews.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/7211021371
Now the question is, will I have enough quota in my ammo allowance to bring enough ammo to make it worth while? (There is an 11 pound limit in ammo I am not sure if that is ammo only, or ammo and cases). I sat down this evening and did some quick math. I have been thinking that Id like 30 rounds of 450 Dakota ammo, and at least 50 rounds of 375 HH ammo. Based on this I built a little table to see how many rounds of 223 ammo Id be able to take. I thought a minimum of 20 rounds would be needed to make it worth while.
The table is at the end of the post, and it looks like I can bring 30 rounds of 450 Dakota, 52 rounds of 375 HH and still have room for 32 rounds of 223 Rem ammo.
The downside is that Id need to drop another 400 bucks on a rifle case. Ill need to think on this and see if it is worth 400 dollars to bring a varmint gun. (I thought about a 12 gauge, but the ammo is too heavy to make it worth while)
Post by: fvh40 on March 27, 2012, 12:34:19 AM
Time is flying and soon it will be departure time. I'm looking forward to see some pics and you hunt report.
Regards
Ferdi
Post by: Rob on March 27, 2012, 04:12:16 PM
I must say, time is NOT flying!!!
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on April 07, 2012, 02:20:09 PM
I havn't kept up with this entire thread. Mostly just glance through here and there. I may have missed this but which animals do you plan on taking this trip? What are your plans as far as mounts go for each animal?
Post by: Rob on April 07, 2012, 07:02:43 PM
The thread is pretty long, I am cursed with being a fast typist with a very small content filter
I have my animals grouped into 3 categories. Primary, secondary, and animals of opportunity.
Primary:
-Cape Buffalo (primary goal of trip)
-Crocodile. This was a late addition, but I am very much looking forward to it.
Secondary Animals:
-Giraffe
-Waterbuck
Animals of opportunity
-Bushbuck
-Impala (I have one already but they are so dang pretty!)
-Misc. Varmints
There is a chance I wont shoot the Giraffe as my wife really does not want me to shoot one and she has NEVER asked me not to do something in the 20 years we have been married. So if she really pushes the issue, Ill probably pass on it.
My Dad is looking for Cape Buffalo and Nyala as his two main animals. With Waterbuck as a third priority. He has unfinished business from our last hunt and wants to get a wildebeest too and would like to get a bushbuck and various varmints.
Ray and Kirk are looking for a combination of Kudu, Warthog, Zebra, Eland, Wildebeest, Impala and probably anything else unlucky enough to walk by!
For my mounts, assuming I am lucky enough to connect:
Cape Buffalo Pedestal mount
Giraffe just tan the skin European for the skull, and bring some bones back. Id love to mount the head/neck in telephone pole fashion, but dont have a place to put it, and it is pretty expensive
Impala wall pedestal
Bushbuck Id love to do a full body with it laying down, but I think that will be too much $ so Ill do a wall pedestal.
Waterbuck wall pedestal
Croc this one is hard to describe. I want to do 1/3 body mount and have it quartering out of the wall. I want the 45 degree cut to start just behind the right armpit, and move towards the snout so that only one of the front legs is in the mount. Probably with the mouth closed with some habitat under it. Ill have the rest of the skin tanned.
Dad has an unusual mount planned if he connects with an Nyala. Similar to my Croc mount, he wants to do a half body mount with it quartering out of the wall
I went to capital forest last weekend and did some shooting at the gravel pit with the 375 hh. In attempt to simulate my crocodile shot, I shot prone off a small unstable sand bag at some 1.5 to 2 inch diameter red potatoes sitting 50 yards away also on the ground. I felt pretty good that I hit about 11 for 12 on them with a splitting headache and only just missed the 12th one. BTW, red potatoes make great reactive targets they are pretty cheap, and when hit with a 275 grain HP, potato mush flies a good 25 feet in the air! Biodegradable too. I was looking for walnuts, but they did not have any at the store.
Again, fast typist, no filter. Sorry for the long reply!
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on April 07, 2012, 07:11:44 PM
Post by: Rob on April 07, 2012, 07:34:18 PM
The Springbok I think tend to prefer more arid habitat and are found in Namibia, south Africa and parts of the Kalahari. I don't believe they have any in the part of Zim I am headed to. I am pretty sure the Color phase Springbok are almost exclusive to South Africa (but I could be wrong - Ferdi could probably jump in with far more authority given this literally in his back yard!).
It might be the kind of mount you build over a few trips - just add heads as you collect them. I have seen some neat tiny ten mounts like that too. I think I saw one with several kinds of duikers that was pretty cool.
I think you should hook up with Ferdi and go after some color phase Springbok in South Africa! Trips are pretty reasonably priced to SA!
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on April 07, 2012, 11:23:22 PM
I was thinking that since your going to be doing the croc where it hangs on the wall you could do a water sceen where the crock is coming out of the wall open mouth after the impala. You could still do the 1/3 mount on the croc and do a 1/2 on the Impala as it is leaping out of reach of the croc. It would put action into both mounts.
Post by: Rob on April 08, 2012, 12:30:47 AM
My reservation would be with the water. I personally have not found I have liked the way water looks in mounts. But that same concept could be done without water.
I am going to buy a couple of those toy rubber aligators and cut them up as a model to show Huffaker what I am looking for with a mount. But first I need to get the croc... and then I'll have to wait the year for the hides and horns to come back!
I love those black Wildebeest! Such pretty animals. I love the hair on the nose and those white tails.
Post by: fvh40 on April 08, 2012, 07:29:19 AM
That would be a cool looking mount - I saw the link you sent me. Very cool. So many neat options with the African game. I saw two fighting gemsbok that I really liked too.
The Springbok I think tend to prefer more arid habitat and are found in Namibia, south Africa and parts of the Kalahari. I don't believe they have any in the part of Zim I am headed to. I am pretty sure the Color phase Springbok are almost exclusive to South Africa (but I could be wrong - Ferdi could probably jump in with far more authority given this literally in his back yard!).
It might be the kind of mount you build over a few trips - just add heads as you collect them. I have seen some neat tiny ten mounts like that too. I think I saw one with several kinds of duikers that was pretty cool.
I think you should hook up with Ferdi and go after some color phase Springbok in South Africa! Trips are pretty reasonably priced to SA!
Hi Rob
Thanks for the heads up.
The different collours of Springbok makes a nice padastal, some guys come out here and hunt all 4 on a trip and call it the Springbuck grand slam.
Regards
Ferdi
Post by: Rob on June 03, 2012, 09:40:37 PM
Finally got around to making a little progress with load development for the 450 Dakota.
As I think I said earlier, I plan to shoot The Cutting Edge Bullets The BBW#13 450 Grain Solid, and the matched BBW#13 420 Grain NonCon. This is a departure from traditional bullets shot from this gun. Tradition says shoot a 500 grain matched set of solids/expanding bullets at 2,400 FPS. From what I have read (and my thoughts on this can be found earlier on this thread) These lighter Cutting edge bullets have better terminal performance in terms of penetration and, in the case of the NonCon, damage than traditional soft points, and round nose bullets. The secret for the solid is in the 67% flat meplat, and with the NonCon, the petal separation. For more info, see this thread:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911
Here is my plan of attack:
1. Find a load that will get the 450 grain solid moving at least 2400 FPS
2. Test that load for accuracy on the bench (I will be happy with 1 inch groups at 100 yards)
3. If the load is not accurate, then tweak it up or down to get the 1 inch groups.
4. Find a load for the NonCon that gets a similar Muzzle velocity to Solid
5. Shoot a test group with the solids and matched MV NonCons and see if they group.
6. Adjust the NonCon load up or down until it allows me to get a 1-1.5 inch group at 100 yards with the mixed bullet types.
7. Test the same combo at 50 yards to see if the group stays together.
That should set me up with the 450 Dakota. Hoping I can get this done with 25 or fewer shots. We shall see!
Starting with the Solid, I loaded up a couple rounds each of 4 powder weights, going up one grain of powder for each step. (Powder was H 4350, and charges were 103, 104, 105, and 106 grains). I believe at 107 grains I will be at 100% of the case capacity. I could probably go as high as 108 or 109 grains with a little compression.
I made it out today and got the results seen at the bottom of the page. (no signs of pressure even on the heaviest load). I was very pleased with the consistency of the velocity readings.
I am happy with the velocities with the 106 grain loads so I am going to test those for accuracy next.
I also re-ran sectional density, Muzzle Energy and Momentum values for this load and compared it to a 500 grain bullet for kicks. The results are in the last table below. I loose 10% in Sectional Density, 7% in momentum, and 314 foot-pounds of muzzle Energy by going to the CEB BBW#13. I believe this is more than made up by the advantages of the bullet shape, and the NonCon performance.
Post by: Rob on June 18, 2012, 08:43:14 AM
I want to see what happens to a BBW#13 Solid does when it hits a twig between the target and the shooter. Some friends of mine and I chatted about this last week and came up with some ideas.
Goals:
-See if there is significant deflection caused by hitting a twig between the target and the muzzle.
-See if different bullets have different results (i.e. Flat nose Solids, Round nose solids, expanding/fragmenting)
Bullets to test:
1. CEB BBW#13 450 grain Solid
2. CEB 420 Grain NonCon
3. Barnes Round Nose Solid
4. Swift A-Frame
Expectations:
I expect to see some deflection by the twigs, but that the deflections will be minor. i.e. maybe a couple inches one way or another. I do not expect to see massive deflection (like off the paper). The one exception might be the NonCon and/or the swift A-frame. If the impact starts the expansion/shearing process, then it might be possible that this would cause some deflection. Basically, if the test proves that the deflection is half minute of buffalo, then I dont see this as significant.
Twig Rig Plans and approach of the setup
The plan is to build a twig block about 8 inches by 8 inches that is set up in such a way as to not permit a .458 bullet to pass through it without striking one or more "twigs". My twigs will be 1/4 inch pine dowels. I will set up a target at 50 yards, and plan to shoot through the twig block at 35 yards (15 yards from the target). See diagram:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Ftwigrigsetup.png&hash=da2ec9ad92e4deaf32ce4915d987d149364a23d3)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FTarget.png&hash=0f9cc0e7e9deece8b4146f26c6adf6ce4e9e5743)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2Ftwigrigandtargetwithreticle.png&hash=b09b82b6661d06d53b937f5f5a03222974425e10)
The build:
I was able to build this in about an hour. It pretty much came out looking just as I designed it to be. I made it so that you could replace the dowels as they got shot up by just sliding them out the top of the block. (bullet in photo is a Woodleigh hydro which was not used in testing )
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0276.jpg&hash=d94e850aac3b28cd17872636003c8db9c87e0a61)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0278.jpg&hash=3f960a2ed3d588e869b57a96d88c3c3b46a82465)
Test on 6/16:
I tested this in the field on Saturday 6/16. The rig set up pretty easily:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0333.jpg&hash=e45f76b469004667066908de57661fd3f484ef99)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0339.jpg&hash=9195b74b4bf38b30e46da733e22fd89673c905de)
Zero time
Once Set up, I took a couple test shots to zero and make sure the CEB Solid and the Round Nose were both hitting the bull at 50 yards (Since each bullet type has a different charge, MV and BC, I wanted to see there was not a drastic difference in Point Of Impact (POI) between them. They both went into the Bull within a couple inches of each other on the vertical axis, and within an inch on the horizontal axis. Good enough for me.
The shots
I tested the four bullets over a total of 8 shots:
#1-Solid CEB 450 Grain BBW#13
---This one went in between two dowels and evenly punched a hole through both sides-like a hole punch. Bullet was about 1.25 inches from the shot I took to test zero.
#2-Solid CEB 450 Grain BBW#13
---Since #1 hit two dowels evenly, I wanted to try another one. This one hit a single dowel and cut a half moon through it. Impact was within an inch of #1, and within a half inch of the zero test POI.
#3: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut a dowel cleanly in half. Bullet was about 1.25 inches from the shot I took without the twigs to test zero.
#4: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut the dowel cleanly in half. Could not find the bottom part of the dowel. Landed within 3/8 of an inch from the zero test bullet.
#5: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Landed within an inch of the zero shot.
#6: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut dowel cleanly in half. Landed less than an inch away from Shots 1 and 2
#7: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Bullet landed about an inch from #1,2 and 6
#8: Swift A-Frame 500 Grain
---Not the best impact on the dowels. It more grazed the dowel. Almost like it pushed the dowel out of the way as the dowel next to it had no marks, bu the impression on the damaged downwas too little to have allowed the .458 caliber bullet to pass through. Regardless the bullet stayed in the Bull and had a POI near the Barnes RN Banded solid.
Here are a couple photos of impacted dowels in the holder:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0344.jpg&hash=e99fbb5b32972aee5a94b69f4cf430038922d18f)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0340.jpg&hash=b84f45d82eb295b657f1e0571f10f4e5ac6ae4a0)
Here are photos of the damaged dowels:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F1-2-3.jpg&hash=3e1062bcda3077c9447b6a6842513df7bcab894b)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F4.jpg&hash=6cbd68393df7677f366589b8262015d69359d34f) (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F5.jpg&hash=7d575735fd4df4a538159a020af74c57771d85de)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2F6-7-8.jpg&hash=dc46b4ebebb028d3dd3f50cf2ac6468a08df94b0)
Here are the targets:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0341.jpg&hash=0aa39005a87364cf5b5e3028138f71e80b03685b)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FREH_0345.jpg&hash=2b6c434524e071020ed54851195d841cc3b929e3)
My interpretations:
Well, This is not a lot of data to make a decision on, but it would seem that if one of these heavy bullets hits a Ό inch twig that is roughly equal or less than the harness of pine, no significant deflection occurs at these ranges. Each Bullet was a different load, yet the total group size of all 8 shots was about 4 inches tall, and 1 to 1.5 inches wide.
I was surprised at how surgical the impacts were on the wood. I had expected to see wood splinters everywhere, but that was not the case. It was interesting to note that the flat point CEBs seemed to hole punch the wood, whereas the others especially the Round Nose bullets, seemed to push through the wood.
Hitting a twig on the way to the target did not start the shearing process on the NonCons as I did not see any petal impacts on the paper.
If Hitting a twig caused the A-Frame to start expansion, it sure did not provide any empirical evidence and this leads me to believe it did not do so.
All in all a fun test. If I do this again, I will have to try with a twig at 10 yards, and the target at 50 to see if having more distance between the target and the twig does anything unusual.
Post by: Rob on June 18, 2012, 09:27:48 AM
First: I went to Eastern Wa to do some testing this weekend and continue work on my load development for the NonCon that will match my Solid. I got the data but I have not processed it yet. Short story is, the NonCons were not as consistent as the solids in terms of velocities, but I am not too worried about that and they should work just fine. The bad news however is that I found that I am having feeding issues with the solids.
My focus thus far has been on single shots with nothing in the magazine. They have all shot and fed well. They also feed just fine when I load up the mag and just dry cycle the shells through the gun (without firing)
I tried rapid fire-multiple shot from a standing position over the weekend. Here is what I did:
-Loaded up three shells in the mag.
-Opened the bolt and chambered the top shell
-Fired the gun
-Opened the bolt and it extracted the old shell
-When trying to close the bolt, the shell would bind as it was sliding into the chamber (this happened 2 out of two attempts)
I tried this same experiment several times with a round nose and the second shell chambered without issue.
The CEB bullets are seated so that the crimp sits just behind second band
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss290%2FRobH123%2FcebSolid.png&hash=e16def701afea86550b0d43897614b769df02059)
I have cross posted this in the AR forum asking for advice and it sounds like there are two options. Seat the bullet deeper (to the top band), and have the left rail looked at to see if it needs tuning. Ill do some research on this and see what comes of it.
The second issue is more disturbing. Terry Anders (the PH we are hunting with) has been evicted from his concession by some partners. Basically this is part of the repatriation of land issues that have been coming up in Zimbabwe. This was a known risk when we booked the hunt, but the chances seemed somewhat remote.
The good news is, we are booked with a reputable outfitter and between he and Terry, I am confident we will get a hunt of equal or better quality. I understand other operators in the area are working with Terry and offering up the ability for him to run his booked hunts on their concessions.
More to follow on this. I am not happy about it, and my heart goes out to Terry and his wife as they are fighting courts to get their land back (they were given 24 hours to get off the land) while trying to run hunts to keep food on the table. This is where doing your research and booking with folks of integrity gives you more confidence in the outcome when thing start to turn sour.
Post by: Rob on July 05, 2012, 11:05:54 AM
only 12 more Saturdays to go before we are on a plane headed to Jo-Berg!
Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!
Post by: Rob on July 31, 2012, 08:30:51 AM
Not too impressed with my shooting, but I have the data I need.
In the photo below, I color coded the shots:
Purple: 450 grain CEB Solid, 106 grains of H4350
Green: 420 grain CEB NonCon, 104 grains of H4350
Yellow: 420 grain CEB NonCon, 103.5 grains of H4350
This was off the bench, using a sissy pad, 100 yards, 6x scope.
Looks to me as though I dramatically pulled one of the 104 grain NonCons pretty bad so I culled that shot. It also looks as though I might have slightly pulled one each of the 104 and 103.5 grain NonCons-one right, one left. But those are not way out there.
I shot another mix bag set and got similar results. Based on this data, it would seem that 0.5 grains has little impact on POI. So I plan to go with 104 grains of H4350 in the NonCon.
So Loads are done for all three rifles:
450 Dakota:
#1: 450 grain CEB Solid with 106 grains of H4350 MV= 2525 ME=6370 ft pounds
#2: 420 grain CEB NonCon with 104 grains of H4350 MV= 2452 ME= 5606 ft pounds
375 HH Mag
#1: 300 grain CEB Solid with 69 grains of RL19 MV=2479, ME=4093
#2: 275 Grain CEB NonCon with 68 grains fo RL 19 MV=2478, ME=3749
.223 Remington
40 grain Hornady V-Max with 21.4 grains of I4198 MV=3400fps ME = 1026
Post by: lhrbull on August 13, 2012, 03:55:20 AM
Post by: Rob on August 14, 2012, 02:41:33 PM
just got back from SA and had a great time that exceeded every promise
This post sucks.... We need a full report with photos!
Post by: h20hunter on August 14, 2012, 02:45:21 PM
Post by: Rob on August 14, 2012, 02:48:26 PM
Well, as of this time, all the operators on the Save in Zim have been shut out of their hunting by the government.
We have been given a plan b place to hunt in the Limpopo region of Zim that looks to be outstanding. It is called Sentinel. http://www.sentinellimpoposafaris.com/. (http://www.sentinellimpoposafaris.com/.) 80,000 acres of unfenced land to hunt.
In other news, I got the 450 Dakota feeding issue resolved. Here is an update:
Two fellow Accurte Reloading folks gave me recommendations of big bore smiths to help with the feeding issue:
-Darcie Echols (http://www.echolsrifles.com/ (http://www.echolsrifles.com/)) in Utah
-Steve Button in Olympia.
Being that Steve is local to me, I called him and chatted with him. He felt he could probably fix the issue for me, but he was leaving for China in 2 weeks and would not be back until 8/1. He said to call him when he returned and he would take care of my issue. My worry was, with my trip coming up in October, waiting till August to have it worked on would leave little time to get it back and tested prior to departure. I decided to chance it.
I called him on 8/2, reached him on 8/3 and had it to his shop on 8/4! I saw some of his work and he is an artist. He looked it over and cycled one of the 6 dummy rounds I brought to him through the gun about 40 times. The issue was that shells coming off the left rail were popping up nose first at too extreme of an angle to allow the flat nosed bullets feed properly into the chamber and instead they were binding on the top of the chamber. He said he would turn my rifle in under a week and that he would beat up my dummy rounds beyond use as he would cycle the gun hundreds of times and that was pretty rough on brass and bullets. True to his word he called me the next Wednesday and said this is as good as it is going to get! Not feeling totally at ease with that declaration, I asked for him to expand on that. He said it was feeding just fine now, but it was not as smooth as he would have liked. That was fine with me.
I picked it up on 8/11 and took it out to a clear cut on my way home to shoot it. There was a lot of metal grit in the action from his work so I blew it all out with some oil and put 10 flawless rounds through her. Blowing out the grit smoothed out the cycling roughness too. I will do a comprehensive cleaning and that should totally clear that up. Here is what Steve did:
1. tuned the left rail to have the shell pop up in more of a horizontal manner
2. Re-polished the feed ramp.
3. Re-shaped the rear end of the box magazine a little
4. Played around with the box mag spring a little.
This seems to have fixed it up and that makes me very happy!
Only 6 more Saturdays left till we are on the plane!
Post by: Rob on August 14, 2012, 02:52:19 PM
Agreed.....not worthy to be a part of your thread. It should be taken down and followed up by a fully detailed description and photo essay.
yes. We demand a detailed description and photo essay...
NOW!
Post by: Elkstuffer on August 19, 2012, 09:36:25 PM
just got back from SA and had a great time that exceeded every promise
This post sucks.... We need a full report with photos!
lhrbull just picked up his dall sheep from me today and I got to see his pictures (yes, they do exist). He said he'd get them up as soon as he could figure out how :)
Post by: Rob on August 20, 2012, 08:42:54 AM
Post by: Rob on August 20, 2012, 08:43:28 AM
Ahhhh
Post by: lhrbull on August 23, 2012, 05:59:03 PM
Post by: Rob on August 24, 2012, 03:55:37 PM
For dad and I , the #1for priority is cape buff. Then dad wants an Nyala and a waterbuck. For me, after the buff I really don't care. I am interested in waterbuck, giraffe, and crocodile. Crocodile may not be a go given our change in venue.
The other guys are looking for Kudu, warthog, impala and zebra.
Time is ticking away!
Post by: lhrbull on August 24, 2012, 04:26:09 PM
Post by: fvh40 on August 27, 2012, 11:01:06 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2FJiriwithImpalaandBlesbok006.jpg&hash=cc423de762a2533b691a0d6331ac4f25cd3c48e9)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2FPappFam1003.jpg&hash=49264ee8e66edc8b5b53d94927bd9411ecca8156)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2FTomasandJiri015.jpg&hash=02c692705fb08c3568be31bd7b677d1a8375634b)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2FBlesbok.jpg&hash=7f95b6e70b69858e6245cbb49bbb7530f3201b35)
And Bushbuck
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2FBushbuckp.jpg&hash=3d27228e268cfb62c018ce9e96fd8a954bc00188)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1141.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn582%2Fwwwferdi%2Fjagmetkannas001.jpg&hash=0b2eae0475e9493e4dc14ba1c81cc9d07e8feb6f)
Post by: Rob on September 04, 2012, 02:01:35 PM
only 3 more Saturday's till I leave. Zim continues to freefall. Hopefully we will get our trip in before it totally implodes!
Post by: lhrbull on September 05, 2012, 10:18:05 PM
Post by: Rob on September 06, 2012, 09:45:13 AM
The SAVE operators who were removed from their land, are making good on booked hunts and making alternative plans for their futures and families.
Our hunt with Terry Anders (the first operator to have lost his land/lease) found us an alternative hunt along the southern border with South Africa (Limpopo region) at a place called Sentinal. Looks like an outstanding area to hunt and we are:
-Excited for our hunt
-Grateful that Terry found us a good alternative
-Sad that Terry and his fellow SAVE operators have lost their hunting leases on the SAVE.
Post by: h20hunter on September 06, 2012, 09:52:41 AM
Post by: Rob on September 06, 2012, 10:09:02 AM
I am very excited to get on the plane and start the trip this has been nearly 2 years in planning!
All the big things are done, but I have what seems to be an endless list of small things that need to be done before I get out of here!
Post by: gramps on September 11, 2012, 11:03:21 AM
off topic...are you gonna be at boomershoot next spring?
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
Our group picked up three slots this year so we can get a bit larger spread. I just got my 338 Lapua shipped to me and took it out to the range this last weekend to start load development. I should be able to have her up and running before boomer starts.
Post by: h20hunter on September 12, 2012, 12:33:41 PM
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2012, 01:00:41 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 12, 2012, 01:04:24 PM
I've been looking forward to you trip just to relive it via the eventual write up. If I forget....best of luck.
Post by: Rob on September 12, 2012, 03:00:40 PM
Post by: fvh40 on September 13, 2012, 01:04:12 AM
I wish you the best, have fun and be safe.
Post by: lhrbull on September 13, 2012, 05:47:54 AM
Post by: Rob on September 18, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
Got all the shells loaded are ready for the trip.
32 .223 Remington (40 grain Vmax behind 21.5 grains of I4198) - MV= 3409
12 .375 HH Mag (300 Grain CEB BBW#13 Solids behind 69 grains of RL15) MV = 2479
40 .375 HH Mag (275 grain CEB BBW#13 NonCons behind 68 grains of RL 15) MV = 2478
10 450 Dakota (450 grain CEB BBW#13 Solids behind 106 grains of H4350) MV=2525
20 450 Dakota (420 grain CEB BBW#13 NonCons behind 104 grains of H4350) MV=2450
114 bullets total.
Total weight in boxes = 10 lbs, 15 oz. one Ounce below the max ammo weight allowance on the plane.
The happy warriors are ready to go.
Post by: Wyoming08 on September 19, 2012, 12:30:16 PM
Nice pictures ROB!!!
I just love the :) faces on the bullets
Good luck over there, you should have a great Hunt!!!
Post by: Holg3107 on September 19, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
Post by: Rob on September 19, 2012, 03:44:03 PM
Post by: Rob on September 24, 2012, 03:37:03 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 24, 2012, 03:43:34 PM
Post by: Rob on September 24, 2012, 03:45:56 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 24, 2012, 03:49:29 PM
I don't think I've ever known anyone that can be as prepared as you are for this trip. I know you aren't gonna miss a single one!
Post by: Rob on October 13, 2012, 11:19:56 AM
trip had a rough start, but we had a GREAT time. the 4 of us shot 58 animals over the course of our trip.
I will post more later, but here is a teaser of the buff's my dad and I shot, and some animal counts.
Post by: Rob on October 13, 2012, 11:21:09 AM
Post by: Rob on October 15, 2012, 04:01:57 AM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107516.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107516.0.html)
Post by: Rob on October 22, 2013, 09:28:59 AM
Taxidermy arrival at home is only another 10-12 months out I would guess!
Post by: Gringo31 on February 14, 2018, 02:20:33 PM
Post by: Kit Carson on February 15, 2018, 11:03:31 PM
Awesome thread!