Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 07:24:18 PM
Post by: seth30 on December 14, 2010, 07:36:27 PM
Post by: mtbeav on December 14, 2010, 07:41:17 PM
Post by: GWP on December 14, 2010, 07:41:35 PM
Post by: deerslyr on December 14, 2010, 07:42:08 PM
Post by: Blsum on December 14, 2010, 07:43:12 PM
Post by: Humptulips on December 14, 2010, 07:44:03 PM
Post by: mikelonsford on December 14, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
Post by: ThePascoKid on December 14, 2010, 07:46:38 PM
Post by: markts on December 14, 2010, 07:49:14 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 07:49:18 PM
I suspect you will not walk away without some form of monetary fine, and possibly a temporary loss of hunting privileges. I honestly doubt that a lawyer would do you much good; save your money to pay any fines you may incur.
If you have been straightforward and told the truth at every occasion, that should help you.
Good luck; that's a real bummer.
[smg id=10161]
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 07:51:34 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 07:51:44 PM
Good luck to you-if you reported it I dont get the problem :dunno:Reporting would not necessarily stop a poacher from hunting again with the tag. He just wouldn't report the second (or third or fourth) one.
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 07:54:24 PM
Since you asked, no lecture. I gather you now understand that failure to notch properly is a significant problem. It's listed first for a reason. The reason it's emphasized is that with the notches intact, they could be glued back and the tag reused. You know you're not a poacher, but how would an enforcement officer? Poachers lie: how do they know that you're not one also?
I suspect you will not walk away without some form of monetary fine, and possibly a temporary loss of hunting privileges. I honestly doubt that a lawyer would do you much good; save your money to pay any fines you may incur.
If you have been straightforward and told the truth at every occasion, that should help you.
Good luck; that's a real bummer.
[smg id=10161]
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 07:55:50 PM
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 07:56:00 PM
Good luck to you-if you reported it I dont get the problem :dunno:Reporting would not necessarily stop a poacher from hunting again with the tag. He just wouldn't report the second (or third or fourth) one.
Post by: the1rod on December 14, 2010, 07:58:50 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 08:00:28 PM
By some estimates, poachers kill the same number of animals as legal hunters in Washington. It's a serious problem. Enforcement officers are stretched thin, and they don't often have much time to hear explanations.
You violated a game law. Man up, face the consequences, learn from it, and move on.
Post by: billythekidrock on December 14, 2010, 08:01:11 PM
As stated above, you will want proof of reporting. You should have a copy of your confirmation number. If not, get it.
They have to prove intent and if things are as you say then there is no intent.
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 08:03:27 PM
Unlawful hunting of big game — Penalty.
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree if the person:
(a) Hunts for, takes, or possesses big game and the person does not have and possess all licenses, tags, or permits required under this title;
(b) Violates any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, closed times, or any other rule governing the hunting, taking, or possession of big game; or
(c) Possesses big game taken during a closed season for that big game or taken from a closed area for that big game.
(2) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the first degree if the person was previously convicted of any crime under this title involving unlawful hunting, killing, possessing, or taking big game, and within five years of the date that the prior conviction was entered the person:
(a) Hunts for big game and does not have and possess all licenses, tags, or permits required under this title;
(b) Acts in violation of any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, or closed times; or
(c) Possesses big game taken during a closed season for that big game or taken from a closed area for that big game.
(3)(a) Unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor. Upon conviction of an offense involving killing or possession of big game taken during a period of time when hunting for the particular species is not permitted, or in excess of the bag or possession limit, the department shall revoke all hunting licenses and tags and order a suspension of hunting privileges for two years.
(b) Unlawful hunting of big game in the first degree is a class C felony. Upon conviction, the department shall revoke all hunting licenses or tags and the department shall order the person's hunting privileges suspended for ten years.
If I read this right I do not lose any privileges?
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 08:05:28 PM
"Tell it to the judge". We're trying to explain it, and you don't seem to want to hear it.
By some estimates, poachers kill the same number of animals as legal hunters in Washington. It's a serious problem. Enforcement officers are stretched thin, and they don't often have much time to hear explanations.
You violated a game law. Man up, face the consequences, learn from it, and move on.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 14, 2010, 08:06:26 PM
Post by: markts on December 14, 2010, 08:07:16 PM
"Tell it to the judge". We're trying to explain it, and you don't seem to want to hear it.What dont you get-he reported his kill and dropped the deer and tag off at the butchershop :dunno: How would he reuse the tag :dunno:
By some estimates, poachers kill the same number of animals as legal hunters in Washington. It's a serious problem. Enforcement officers are stretched thin, and they don't often have much time to hear explanations.
You violated a game law. Man up, face the consequences, learn from it, and move on.
Post by: GWP on December 14, 2010, 08:08:53 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 08:09:17 PM
Ok, I will. Where did I say I would not as you put it "man up".[/quote]
I think it's your effort to justify your actions. We understand it was not intentional. We all make mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes they have consequences.
Seriously, best of luck to you.
Post by: Tony 270 on December 14, 2010, 08:09:55 PM
Seems they should focus on actual crimes and violations and not try to make up some BS ones.
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 08:11:55 PM
I think it's your effort to justify your actions. We understand it was not intentional. We all make mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes they have consequences.Ok, I will. Where did I say I would not as you put it "man up".
Seriously, best of luck to you.
[/quote]
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on December 14, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 08:15:27 PM
I think it's your effort to justify your actions. We understand it was not intentional. We all make mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes they have consequences.Ok, I will. Where did I say I would not as you put it "man up".
Seriously, best of luck to you.
[/quote]
Post by: carver52 on December 14, 2010, 08:22:17 PM
If you can afford it I'd say get a lawyer. They speak the lingo of the court, you don't. You may have to pay the lawyer roughly the same or a little more than the fine, or maybe no fine at all. There are lawyers that specialize in wildlife tickets. Are you a member of PrePaid Legal?
Best of luck with this.
Post by: chester on December 14, 2010, 08:25:19 PM
Post by: ScottyG on December 14, 2010, 09:24:27 PM
"Tell it to the judge". We're trying to explain it, and you don't seem to want to hear it.
By some estimates, poachers kill the same number of animals as legal hunters in Washington. It's a serious problem. Enforcement officers are stretched thin, and they don't often have much time to hear explanations.
You violated a game law. Man up, face the consequences, learn from it, and move on.
"We're trying to explain it..." I really hate when someone decides for themselves that they represent the group.
Bob33... you are speaking only for yourself. Personally, I think its absurd to think you can glue a notched tag back together and not draw additional attention to it if checked. I also think that law enforcement should take the time to listen to the situation and make some judgements. A second year hunter that poked a hole in the day of the kill but missed the month, especially in the rifle season or late bow season deserves the benefit of the doubt. We have a 10 day rifle season in most parts of the state and a fifteen day late bow season where I hunt. It would be impossible to reuse that tag if the day was notched. I suppose a tag that was notched only for the day in an early bow season could be used again in a late bow season but you would be limited to shooting your second animal to the same day of the month as the tag was already notched for. I really don't understand why reason can't be used to determine when a warning would be the best course of action, unless it truly is all about revenue generation for WDFW. I'd like to believe that they are about more than revenue generation.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2010, 09:34:25 PM
Post by: Steve Jo on December 14, 2010, 09:41:50 PM
Reporting that he harvested the animal shows that there was intent of lawful action.
Let's hope common sense prevails...
Brakens: Negligence wont prevail, but I think you can clearly make a case for having the intent of lawfully notching your tag. Do you still have the tag in your possession or was it confiscated?
Post by: dirty24d on December 14, 2010, 09:46:06 PM
In that vein, why would a poacher glue a notched tag back together when he could simply toss the correctly notched tag in the garbage and go get a replacement license and tag for 5 bucks?
Reporting that he harvested the animal shows that there was intent of lawful action.
Let's hope common sense prevails...
Brakens: Negligence wont prevail, but I think you can clearly make a case for having the intent of lawfully notching your tag. Do you still have the tag in your possession or was it confiscated?
Good Call Steve That is a valid point worth presenting to the judge or d.a. ... Good Luck Brackens thats a bum deal dude..
Post by: blackmouther on December 14, 2010, 09:49:22 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 14, 2010, 09:51:54 PM
In that vein, why would a poacher glue a notched tag back together when he could simply toss the correctly notched tag in the garbage and go get a replacement license and tag for 5 bucks?
Reporting that he harvested the animal shows that there was intent of lawful action.
Let's hope common sense prevails...
Brakens: Negligence wont prevail, but I think you can clearly make a case for having the intent of lawfully notching your tag. Do you still have the tag in your possession or was it confiscated?
IMHO, that is like saying that since you slowed down, your intent was to "not" speed. This vague section of the code appears to allow wildlife officers to simply cash in on a mistake. Did he break the law...? Looks like it. Did he intentionally break the law? Doesn't look like it.
My guess would be that if he did report the kill, and he has a clean record with no prior violations....that the judge will pass judgement on it and suspend any jail time, and simply leave a partial fine in place.
Now you need to ask yourself if you want a conviction like this on your record. Is it worth laywering up to attempt to get a dismissal?
Post by: deerslyr on December 14, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
Post by: chester on December 14, 2010, 09:54:39 PM
Post by: Deep Forks on December 14, 2010, 11:15:06 PM
Post by: brackens on December 14, 2010, 11:34:15 PM
In that vein, why would a poacher glue a notched tag back together when he could simply toss the correctly notched tag in the garbage and go get a replacement license and tag for 5 bucks?
Reporting that he harvested the animal shows that there was intent of lawful action.
Let's hope common sense prevails...
Brakens: Negligence wont prevail, but I think you can clearly make a case for having the intent of lawfully notching your tag. Do you still have the tag in your possession or was it confiscated?
Post by: bobcat on December 14, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Post by: chester on December 14, 2010, 11:59:26 PM
Post by: canyelk48 on December 15, 2010, 05:34:38 AM
Post by: salmonslayer1 on December 15, 2010, 07:02:16 AM
Post by: bullrider97 on December 15, 2010, 07:08:59 AM
I don't see where you unlawfully hunted big game, improper tagging of big game yes, but not unlawfully hunting
I don't understand how you could be cited with unlawful hunting ??? You weren't hunting! Improper validation of the tag or whatever they want to call it is what the charge should be. If it was me, I think I would at least consider hiring a lawyer, as it seems that the right lawyer should be able to get the case dropped entirely. To me they wrote you up for the wrong thing and therefore you shouldn't have to plead guilty of anything. :twocents:
I agree with the gents above. Even though it's a hassle you shouldn't have any trouble proving you were lawfully hunting. I think the warden cited under the wrong statute, which should be an easy dismissal. Hopefully your lawyer is well versed and gives a crap rather than just taking your money.
Good luck.
Post by: goosewhacker on December 15, 2010, 07:52:36 AM
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 09:03:33 AM
I don't see where you unlawfully hunted big game, improper tagging of big game yes, but not unlawfully huntingI don't understand how you could be cited with unlawful hunting ??? You weren't hunting! Improper validation of the tag or whatever they want to call it is what the charge should be. If it was me, I think I would at least consider hiring a lawyer, as it seems that the right lawyer should be able to get the case dropped entirely. To me they wrote you up for the wrong thing and therefore you shouldn't have to plead guilty of anything. :twocents:
I agree with the gents above. Even though it's a hassle you shouldn't have any trouble proving you were lawfully hunting. I think the warden cited under the wrong statute, which should be an easy dismissal. Hopefully your lawyer is well versed and gives a crap rather than just taking your money.
Good luck.
I completely agree with these gentlemen. And Lawyer up. You don't want this sticking with you. Any background check will turn this up. I was denied an apartment because I had been convicted of a misdemeanor.(disorderly conduct. I got into a bar fight) it sticks with you.
Post by: whacker1 on December 15, 2010, 09:09:34 AM
For what it's worth...I got a ticket in the field for the same thing. Did not have the notch completly removed on the date, had two slits on the notch but was guilty of having a "hanging chad". Got a ticket for "improperly notching" my tag. Went to court in Cle Elum, told my story and got a whole $ 20.00 knocked off my ticket. I think I paid $ 140.00, but it's not on my record, I did have a LEO check for me when I got my CWP. Your situation sucks, good luck to you!
I think this is what you should be lobbying for is the "improperly notched" tag. This seems more appropriate than poaching.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:42:40 AM
I think I would speak to a lawyer about this. I know that costs money but a gross midemeanor can get you I believe up to $10,000 fine and 5 years in jail. Not likely you'll get that but it could get expensive.
Gross misd is $5,000 and/or up to one year.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:56:25 AM
i believe failure to tag an animal is 361 dollar fine.(unnotched tag is considered failure to tag) you will spend alot more on a lawyer. and i personally would no longer give the meat locker my business. they probably called you in over some bs.
You are correct on the fine. However unnotched tag is not considered failure to tag. There are three different crimes in regards to tagging. 1- Failure to tag 2- Intentional failure to notch tag 3- Unintential failure to notch tag.
1&2 are $361. 3 is about $160.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:59:02 AM
it disturbs me our hard earned dollars pay stupid lazy state officials to give fines to law abiding citizens when so much poaching and crimes to fish and wildlife are occurring on a daily basis.
How can you call this individual a law abiding citizen when he did not properly notch his tag??
Is he a harden criminal? No. But did he violate the law? Yes.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 10:03:02 AM
I don't understand how you could be cited with unlawful hunting ??? You weren't hunting!
Failing to tag/notch the tag is enforced under 2nd degree unlawful hunting.
RCW 77.15.410
Unlawful hunting of big game
1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree if the person:
(b) Violates any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, closed times, or any other rule governing the hunting, taking, or possession of big game;
It is a WDFW commission rule to properly tag and notch your animal. A violation of that law is enforced under 2nd Degree Unlawful Hunting.
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 10:17:37 AM
it disturbs me our hard earned dollars pay stupid lazy state officials to give fines to law abiding citizens when so much poaching and crimes to fish and wildlife are occurring on a daily basis.
How can you call this individual a law abiding citizen when he did not properly notch his tag??
Is he a harden criminal? No. But did he violate the law? Yes.
He attempted to notch it. His intention was to follow the law. He thought he was legal. Jesus, give it a break. It would be one thing if he intended to do wrong. But he didn't. I hope you never once unintentionally did anything wrong ever. or your just a criminal like I guess 99.99% of the rest of us are. Then you have no room to talk.
Post by: k_rex on December 15, 2010, 10:22:05 AM
Lawyer will cost you more up front and may be able to get the case dismissed.
I'm not sure where you are but, I have a recommendation on a lawyer. If you are outside of his area lean on him for as much info as you can and ask for a recommendation in your area
Jag Matto
Phone 206. 621.8777
Direct 253.332.4879
Fax 206.621.1256
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 10:41:41 AM
it disturbs me our hard earned dollars pay stupid lazy state officials to give fines to law abiding citizens when so much poaching and crimes to fish and wildlife are occurring on a daily basis.
How can you call this individual a law abiding citizen when he did not properly notch his tag??
Is he a harden criminal? No. But did he violate the law? Yes.
He attempted to notch it. His intention was to follow the law. He thought he was legal. Jesus, give it a break. It would be one thing if he intended to do wrong. But he didn't. I hope you never once unintentionally did anything wrong ever. or your just a criminal like I guess 99.99% of the rest of us are. Then you have no room to talk.
Your right it was an accident. This is why there is a different fine for intentional and accidental tagging violations.
Post by: Oldguy on December 15, 2010, 10:43:01 AM
I appreciate that you didn't intentional commit a crime, but we all make mistakes. Good luck with the judge.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 10:47:11 AM
One thing that is being ignored is that Wildlife Officers routinely check game processes and check the tags and records. The butcher didn't necessarily call the WDFW. Also, the tag is given back to the hunter with the meat and is supposed to be kept with it. Secondly, talk to an experienced Wildlife Officer and ask what poachers do to repair a sliced tag. Quite amazing what cheats think up to steal game. We have WO's come to our Hunter Education classes and there is a big emphasis on the proper notching of tags. In fact it says to "remove the notch" right on the tag.
I appreciate that you didn't intentional commit a crime, but we all make mistakes. Good luck with the judge.
:yeah:
WDFW Officers not only check butchers but also taxidermists, especially right after hunting season since that is butchers and taxidermists busiest time. WDFW is not only checking that the butchers and taxidermists are following the law in regards to book keeping and other laws but also that hunters are following the laws. There have been several cases made by people illegally bringing in animals from other states which have Chronic Wasting Disease and WDFW found these animals in butcher shops. WDFW can do a warrantless search of a butcher or taxidermist anytime they want.
Post by: croix on December 15, 2010, 10:48:46 AM
GET A LAWYER!
Post by: shoot-em-dead on December 15, 2010, 10:57:06 AM
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 15, 2010, 11:09:26 AM
Sometimes the simplest things can be difficult for some. Maybe it's the words on page 73 of the regs that are a bit confusing that state "completely remove." Dunno! :dunno:
Lesson learned......Good luck!
Post by: Ellensburg on December 15, 2010, 11:21:56 AM
Post by: Bob33 on December 15, 2010, 11:29:09 AM
Post by: ScottyG on December 15, 2010, 11:34:50 AM
You should be required to be able to recite the game regs and reference the page numbers where every rule can be found.
Posting photos of animals that do not clearly show the tag affixed to the carcas should be grounds for investigation by the WDFW.
All mistakes should invoke a penalty. No warnings should ever be given and circumstances can not be taken into consideration in determining intent/guilt.
Now that I've said that, can I join the club of holier than thou hunters that think that is what is required to stop poaching and make hunting ethical and fair? Oh, please let me in.
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 11:43:56 AM
I think they should make it imperative that a person pass a hunter's education course with 100% scores, before issuing a license. If one question is missed, you shouldn't be allowed in the field. You should have to take the test annually with the same result or have your hunting priveledges revoked.
You should be required to be able to recite the game regs and reference the page numbers where every rule can be found.
Posting photos of animals that do not clearly show the tag affixed to the carcas should be grounds for investigation by the WDFW.
All mistakes should invoke a penalty. No warnings should ever be given and circumstances can not be taken into consideration in determining intent/guilt.
Now that I've said that, can I join the club of holier than thou hunters that think that is what is required to make hunting ethical and fair? Oh, please let me in.
Lol. You do sound just like them.
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 11:45:25 AM
*censored*ty deal man! Do a lot of research before you lawyer up... May be better off to take the fine.
The fine isn't really the bad part. It's the gross misdemeanor conviction on his record that will cost him.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 11:51:30 AM
*censored*ty deal man! Do a lot of research before you lawyer up... May be better off to take the fine.
The fine isn't really the bad part. It's the gross misdemeanor conviction on his record that will cost him.
How would that cost him? It doesn't prevent him from doing anything.
Post by: Gutpile on December 15, 2010, 12:02:04 PM
I think they should make it imperative that a person pass a hunter's education course with 100% scores, before issuing a license. If one question is missed, you shouldn't be allowed in the field. You should have to take the test annually with the same result or have your hunting priveledges revoked.
You should be required to be able to recite the game regs and reference the page numbers where every rule can be found.
Posting photos of animals that do not clearly show the tag affixed to the carcas should be grounds for investigation by the WDFW.
All mistakes should invoke a penalty. No warnings should ever be given and circumstances can not be taken into consideration in determining intent/guilt.
Now that I've said that, can I join the club of holier than thou hunters that think that is what is required to stop poaching and make hunting ethical and fair? Oh, please let me in.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Geez I thought you were serious at first. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
When in Wyoming this fall I signed my tag and put it on my lope but forgot to notch it. I got checked as soon as we got it to the road. I about crapped when I realized what I had done and thought I was about to get slammed. I told him what I had done and started to notch it, all he did was give me some pocket scissors to make it easier. :chuckle: He didn't even address the fact that I had forgot. No fine, no lecture, nothing. He had me by the balls but let it go. We just got so wrapped up in pictures and what not that I just forgot to notch it. Happens to the best of us, just don't let it happen in WA. I hear about this constantly but I'm surprised it's a gross misdemeanor. Seems kind of harsh.
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 12:11:32 PM
*censored*ty deal man! Do a lot of research before you lawyer up... May be better off to take the fine.
The fine isn't really the bad part. It's the gross misdemeanor conviction on his record that will cost him.
How would that cost him? It doesn't prevent him from doing anything.
Actually it does. If you would read the whole thread you would know that.
Post by: agchawk on December 15, 2010, 12:12:59 PM
I had bagged what was at the time my biggest buck to date. I was so excited that I failed to cut the WHOLE month off of the tag (A portion of the month tab was still hanging on the tag).
As I was driving home I ran into a VOLUNTARY check point. Of course, I pulled in because I was damned proud of the buck and was willing to show it to anyone that wanted to look. As I was shooting the breeze with one of the officers, a second one pulled my tag off the antlers and looked at it. He immediately walked over to me and showed me my error. He then charged me with improper tagging and wrote me a ticket for 300 and some odd dollars. needless to say I was floored!
HOWEVER....by the letter of the law I WAS GUILTY. Although I did NOT do it intentionally and was not trying to hide ANYTHING, I did fail to remove the WHOLE MONTH.
I did my day in court and my fine was reduced to just over $100. I paid the fine and walked out of there having learned ONE HUGE LESSON! I have NEVER failed to notch my tag properly since.
I know it sucks...been there, done that. However, it IS the law and I was man enough to take my lumps, intentional or not.
Post by: ScottyG on December 15, 2010, 01:00:12 PM
I also had something similar happen some years ago.
I notched October when it was actually November 1 kill. I immediately recognized the issue but the month of October was notched, so I cut out November also. I was checked and given a firm warning that I had an improperly notched tag. I explained the situation and no citation was issued.
I didn't have to go to court. I didn't have to pay a fine. Though, by the letter of the law, I was certainly guilty. I'm pretty sure I learned the same lesson that you did. And, I've made certain to clearly think through the date before I lay blade to tag. To my knowledge, I've never notched a tag incorrectly since.
I appreciate the difficult job that law enforcement has to do. But, I appreciate even more those law enforcement officers that take the time to assess the situation and use warnings where appropriate.
I guess one has to ask why a tag is notched in the first place. I think it is to create a tag that can not be used on another day. With the short seasons in Washington, in all but a few situations, the significance of the month of kill on the tag is moot once you've notched a day on your tag. It also seems that this guy turning his partially notched tag into the butcher certainly shows his intent to not reuse the tag.
I believe this would have been an appropriate situation to issue a warning about the appropriate way to notch a tag. His actions showed no intent to harvest a second animal. Its a shame that our courts and good citizens are required to waste time over a situation like this, when a warning clearly could of accomplished the same result.
It's not about "manning" up when you make a mistake. Most of us are willing to do that and this gentleman seems to be admitting his mistake and willing to do that. It's about fitting the appropriate level of remediation to a situation. Let's keep people safe and stop the illegal harvest of animals. I'd argue that the citation that you got, the ticket that I didn't get, and the citation that this guy got have done litle if anything towards those ends.
Post by: rasbo on December 15, 2010, 01:08:38 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 15, 2010, 01:38:09 PM
It is my non-professional opoinion that you made an honest mistake and that honest mistakes dealt with honorably usually end up with a reasonable conclusion. I'd go in prepared with the facts (and as much proof as possible) and I would not bother to lawyer up.
I too have lived a less-than-perfect life, and on an occasion or two actually messed up unintentionally. Worst I have to show for it is a slap and some new found knowledge. And for that matter, I've never heard of anyone actually getting hammered by these laws unless they earned it.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I don't even play one on TV.
Best of luck to you.
Dan
Post by: 7mag. on December 15, 2010, 01:52:48 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on December 15, 2010, 02:02:45 PM
hope it works out for, i just got my first citatiion 8-9 months and i still say its bs but in the end it costs you more to fight it than to just pay the fine
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 02:04:03 PM
It turns out that there are some real *censored*s on this site. If "we" as a hunting community are going to prosecute our fellow hunters for trying to follow the law, and in doing so, make a small mistake, then we may as well kiss our hunting rights good bye. The guy harvested an animal, notched his tag(not perfectly) and took it to the butcher, where he turned over his animal and tag. He then went home and reported his harvest like he is supposed to. What the hell is everyone's problem? Every single one of us has made much bigger errors than this while hunting, and if you say that you haven't, you are a liar. The game dept. is splitting hairs and it's *censored*. If he was caught in the field with a tag like this, then maybe a different story, but he turned the tag over to the butcher, no opportunity for wrong doing.
couldn't have said it any better. :tup:
Post by: KeeKeeBlamo on December 15, 2010, 02:14:10 PM
Finally as a new hunter myself I can say that if I committed a violation I would be afraid that a gross misdemeanor would have some effect on the licensing that allows me to work and support my wife & child. Afraid not not wanting to take responsibility for it. I can also say that if I were to committ an infraction I would never seek advice in this forum after reading this :bdid:. This is the kind of crap that will eventually kill hunting because people will be afraid the state will take their rights from them for an accident or a mistake.
Post by: Machias on December 15, 2010, 02:23:29 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 03:22:19 PM
well having the gamie be a women did not help...... they shouldnt be allowed to be gamies :bash:
Why does the WDFW Officer being a female make the citation worse then if the citation was by a male WDFW Officer?
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 03:23:33 PM
on the other hand, what did she look like? :rolleyes:
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 15, 2010, 03:38:56 PM
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 03:45:55 PM
Ya may not need a Lawyer but ya gotta fight it. on the back of the citation you will see the address for the county clerk in question. write them a letter, attatch it with your citation requesting a "contest" and "discovery" in your letter requesting discovery, ask for a copy of the officers report. also require that the officer be present for the contest. make sure you have the tag, if not request it, or copy of it. require that that tag be presented in court. after that if not done already get your confermation number for the report. if you had made that report, while the butcher was in possession of your tag, it goes towards your lack of intent. it shows that you were acting responsible. in the opening of the trial ask for a dismissal with remarks related to the above. good luck. odds are the officer will not show, as the state has found it cheaper to keep them in the field than at a misdemeanor trial.
That is some very good information. :)
Post by: Houndhunter on December 15, 2010, 03:50:45 PM
well having the gamie be a women did not help...... they shouldnt be allowed to be gamies :bash:
Why does the WDFW Officer being a female make the citation worse then if the citation was by a male WDFW Officer?
you ever ran into a cop that was a chick??? would the outcome of been different with a male officer? just sayin
Post by: Gobble Gobble on December 15, 2010, 03:53:14 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 04:02:57 PM
Sounds like she is the brother of a GW that used to be in Franklin County a few years back that would ticket hunters (mostly bird) for crossing railroad tracks without emptying their guns. Apparently, railroad tracks are federal property and you can't have a loaded firearm on federal property (not sure if that has changed). My brother used to be the assistant prosecuting attorney in Franklin County and had to deal with his stupid tickets all the time during bird season. Just someone out to be a jerk because they have a badge and the authority to be one.
Legally you aren't even able to walk on railroad tracks. Railroad companies consider it to be trespassing which is why you often see No Trespassing signs near the tracks. Railroad Police (yes there is such an agency) enforces the law heavily and have cited a lot of fishermen and hunters over the years. A lot of fishermen will cross the bridge/tracks on a river so they can fish the other side of a river. Well when they reach the other side of the river they are greeted by the railroad police who cite them for trespassing.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 04:05:31 PM
well having the gamie be a women did not help...... they shouldnt be allowed to be gamies :bash:
Why does the WDFW Officer being a female make the citation worse then if the citation was by a male WDFW Officer?
you ever ran into a cop that was a chick??? would the outcome of been different with a male officer? just sayin
Well I am pretty sure that male WDFW Officers enforce the same laws that female WDFW Officers do. And personally I would have cited this person too, he did not properly notch his tag.
Post by: brackens on December 15, 2010, 04:52:11 PM
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
Listen all, I fully expected this to be the outcome of posting this. Many of you are really succinct in the way you hunt and do not make errors. I get that. My only problem with this is that this was a teachable moment for the officer and she chose to try to criminally prosecute me, giving me a record, potentially impacting my living, and costing me thousands of dollars if I fight this legally with representation. No matter your stance on notching a tag, I will tell you it is nutty that I am being prosecuted to this level and I deem it a waste of our resources at so many levels. This is my last post on the subject and thanks to all that have helped me along the way. Hopefully this helps some other hunter when notching his or her tag.
I agree. A complete waste of OUR tax dollars when a stern warning would have been sufficient.
Post by: PA BEN on December 15, 2010, 05:01:58 PM
Post by: shoot-em-dead on December 15, 2010, 05:12:33 PM
Listen all, I fully expected this to be the outcome of posting this. Many of you are really succinct in the way you hunt and do not make errors. I get that. My only problem with this is that this was a teachable moment for the officer and she chose to try to criminally prosecute me, giving me a record, potentially impacting my living, and costing me thousands of dollars if I fight this legally with representation. No matter your stance on notching a tag, I will tell you it is nutty that I am being prosecuted to this level and I deem it a waste of our resources at so many levels. This is my last post on the subject and thanks to all that have helped me along the way. Hopefully this helps some other hunter when notching his or her tag.
Wow- taking it that way- really? Lets get a few things cleared up buddy. I have yet to read where anyone posted in this column how they have not made errors. You want a teachable moment over this then lets put it in perspective.
Your whinning here is no different than someone who got a speeding ticket. You broke the law and got caught. The law is clear and posted right on your tag and in the hunting handbook. The fines for such violations are also public information. Pretty simple really, YOU didn't follow simple instructions and here you are crying to the world that WDFW is wasting tax dollars because YOU are too stupid to understand how to cut out and remove a notch in your tag.
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 05:31:51 PM
Listen all, I fully expected this to be the outcome of posting this. Many of you are really succinct in the way you hunt and do not make errors. I get that. My only problem with this is that this was a teachable moment for the officer and she chose to try to criminally prosecute me, giving me a record, potentially impacting my living, and costing me thousands of dollars if I fight this legally with representation. No matter your stance on notching a tag, I will tell you it is nutty that I am being prosecuted to this level and I deem it a waste of our resources at so many levels. This is my last post on the subject and thanks to all that have helped me along the way. Hopefully this helps some other hunter when notching his or her tag.
Wow- taking it that way- really? Lets get a few things cleared up buddy. I have yet to read where anyone posted in this column how they have not made errors. You want a teachable moment over this then lets put it in perspective.
Your whinning here is no different than someone who got a speeding ticket. You broke the law and got caught. The law is clear and posted right on your tag and in the hunting handbook. The fines for such violations are also public information. Pretty simple really, YOU didn't follow simple instructions and here you are crying to the world that WDFW is wasting tax dollars because YOU are too stupid to understand how to cut out and remove a notch in your tag.
So that's it? No leniency, no warnings? Just hang em high? Some one who DID notch their tag (just not to the exacting specifications of our oh so great game department. You want to waste our tax dollars that I worked my a$$ off for? For what to possiblely ruin someone's record? All this when a warning would have been sufficient.... well BUDDY you and people like you are going to be the reason why we no longer have new hunters, and therefore the tradition of hunting will die. Nice work.
Post by: markts on December 15, 2010, 05:38:43 PM
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 05:41:33 PM
Listen all, I fully expected this to be the outcome of posting this. Many of you are really succinct in the way you hunt and do not make errors. I get that. My only problem with this is that this was a teachable moment for the officer and she chose to try to criminally prosecute me, giving me a record, potentially impacting my living, and costing me thousands of dollars if I fight this legally with representation. No matter your stance on notching a tag, I will tell you it is nutty that I am being prosecuted to this level and I deem it a waste of our resources at so many levels. This is my last post on the subject and thanks to all that have helped me along the way. Hopefully this helps some other hunter when notching his or her tag.
Wow- taking it that way- really? Lets get a few things cleared up buddy. I have yet to read where anyone posted in this column how they have not made errors. You want a teachable moment over this then lets put it in perspective.
Your whinning here is no different than someone who got a speeding ticket. You broke the law and got caught. The law is clear and posted right on your tag and in the hunting handbook. The fines for such violations are also public information. Pretty simple really, YOU didn't follow simple instructions and here you are crying to the world that WDFW is wasting tax dollars because YOU are too stupid to understand how to cut out and remove a notch in your tag.
So that's it? No leniency, no warnings? Just hang em high? Some one who DID notch their tag (just not to the exacting specifications of our oh so great game department. You want to waste our tax dollars that I worked my a$$ off for? For what to possiblely ruin someone's record? All this when a warning would have been sufficient.... well BUDDY you and people like you are going to be the reason why we no longer have new hunters, and therefore the tradition of hunting will die. Nice work.
Your making sense again :o
Post by: shoot-em-dead on December 15, 2010, 05:50:06 PM
This is starting to make me wonder what you guys would think if a hunter made a simple mistake and shot a 2 point in a 3 point minimum unit and got caught. Would you still be pissed at the game warden for issuing a ticket? Would that be waisting tax dollars too?
Post by: markts on December 15, 2010, 05:53:02 PM
I am saying that it is no different than getting caught speeding- I hope he can get the charges dropped or brought to a smaller charge but he did break a law that is obviously very clear.Certainly not :twocents:
This is starting to make me wonder what you guys would think if a hunter made a simple mistake and shot a 2 point in a 3 point minimum unit and got caught. Would you still be pissed at the game warden for issuing a ticket? Would that be waisting tax dollars too?
Post by: Houndhunter on December 15, 2010, 05:53:47 PM
I am saying that it is no different than getting caught speeding- I hope he can get the charges dropped or brought to a smaller charge but he did break a law that is obviously very clear.
This is starting to make me wonder what you guys would think if a hunter made a simple mistake and shot a 2 point in a 3 point minimum unit and got caught. Would you still be pissed at the game warden for issuing a ticket? Would that be waisting tax dollars too?
the whole thing is this beeoch gave him a pretty severe citation for what he did, no one is saying he shouldnt get a ticket
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 06:03:03 PM
I am saying that it is no different than getting caught speeding- I hope he can get the charges dropped or brought to a smaller charge but he did break a law that is obviously very clear.
This is starting to make me wonder what you guys would think if a hunter made a simple mistake and shot a 2 point in a 3 point minimum unit and got caught. Would you still be pissed at the game warden for issuing a ticket? Would that be waisting tax dollars too?
well i think if you accidentally shot a two point and immediately called the game warden and told them you made a mistake they should treat you better then someone who didn't notify authorities and wantonly wasted it. You should still get a ticket, just maybe not the max. But that's beside the point here. that's kind of like comparing a drunk in public to a DUI. My point is (A) he did notch the tag (B) he then submitted his harvest report. (which would be pretty dumb if you planned to keep hunting) and (C) he took it to a registered butcher with the tag. If i was a game warden i would take all of these things into account and show some discretion. you would have to be pretty stupid or pretty vindictive to not see/ignore the fact that there is absolutely no intent. if you do have to site him why make it a gross misdemeanour? I just think the game officer in question probably could have found a more productive way to spend her time then screw this guy over.
Post by: Bob33 on December 15, 2010, 06:14:43 PM
Post by: FC on December 15, 2010, 06:40:32 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 15, 2010, 06:46:57 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 15, 2010, 06:49:06 PM
"I just received a court appearance order from the county prosecutor summoning me to court on the 27th of December for second degree unlawful hunting of big game. I just received this today."
If I am reading that correctly, the game warden did not issue a citation, as she could very well have, right at that time. It sounds like she filed a report and turned it over to the Prosecutor's office to determine what, if any charges were warranted. Then the Prosecutor decided to file that particular charge and sent out a summons for a court appearance.
From what I have seen of how the game department works as far as enforcement goes, is that they will cite you on the spot if they have no doubts about what has happened. There sems to be very little room for discretion or warnings in their world. Apparently, from the wording in the original posting, this is not what happened.
That may be in part because they are spread so thin and so much is gotten away with that they figure if they caught someone doing it this time, how many other times have they done it and gotten away with it? So it seems to me, that she may have had some doubt about whether it was intentional wrong doing or just a dumb rookie mistake, but she is still required to file a report about the incident and turn it in to be reviewed by the powers that be.
Regardless, sorry to hear about this happening, hope everything works out in the end.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 15, 2010, 06:50:18 PM
If nothing else, I suspect everyone who has read this thread will never leave a notch hanging.
Yeah, I think you hit that one right on the head!!
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 15, 2010, 07:00:59 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 07:20:29 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
Most want more enforcement on things in the field. Catching people in the act, stopping further crimes from being commited, having a presence for the most part. we want more enforcement there. Giving this guy a ticket isnt gonna keep save that deer. Enforcement seems to like to take a stance on things that arent that much in the big picture. they are just trying to line there pockets. And when a whole heard gets slaughtered they dont follow up on it. (im talking westside) but they will sure as hell run you down to count and recount 15 clams or get you for leaving a shell in your gun and leaning it on your bumper. Are those acts illegal? yes. But with few peop in in enforcement there time could be much better spent. :twocents:
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 07:34:45 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 15, 2010, 07:58:26 PM
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 08:31:35 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
with all that responsibility it sounds like they shouldn't be wasting their time with this petty ante *censored*. go get a poacher. we all want more enforcement... of poachers.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 08:38:35 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
Most want more enforcement on things in the field. Catching people in the act, stopping further crimes from being commited, having a presence for the most part. we want more enforcement there. Giving this guy a ticket isnt gonna keep save that deer. Enforcement seems to like to take a stance on things that arent that much in the big picture. they are just trying to line there pockets. And when a whole heard gets slaughtered they dont follow up on it. (im talking westside) but they will sure as hell run you down to count and recount 15 clams or get you for leaving a shell in your gun and leaning it on your bumper. Are those acts illegal? yes. But with few peop in in enforcement there time could be much better spent. :twocents:
Here is the thing that most people don’t understand; there is more to the job of a fish and wildlife officer then sitting in the hills looking for a poacher. There are over 200 different seasons and regulatory activities (such as taxidermy) that WDFW is required to work/enforce. It’s not just deer, elk, turkey and salmon. There are patrols for such things as sea cucumber enforcement, squid, pet sore regulation, lands enforcement, commercial crawfish, border operations, and so on. Each user group wants WDFW Officers to work their season. Go on a Fly Fishing website and see how many people want officers to work fly only lakes, go to a crabbing website and see how many people complain about a lack of enforcement.
You say giving this guy a ticket isn’t going to save the deer. Well what are the chances of a WDFW Officer actually preventing a deer from being poached? Most of the time the animal is already dead by the time the officer contacts the individual.
There have been many big poaching cases made by WDFW routinely inspecting taxidermists and butchers.
WDFW is required to do things that most people probably wouldn’t think is “right”. Such as the requirement for WDFW to work over 3,000 hours of enforcement time enforcing the federal Lacey Act related to wholesale fish dealers and buyers, cold storage facilities, retail markets, restaurants, SeaTac Airport, and the Canadian Border. The requirement to work about 2,000 hours of enforcement time enforcing commercial and recreational ground fish and halibut regulations. And the requirement for about 9,000 hours spent on enforcing the Endangered Species Act in regards to Salmon and Steelhead. If WDFW doesn’t meet those requirements then they lose federal funding from NOAA. And with the additions of Puget Sound Rockfish and Columbia River Smelt to the ESA this year WDFW will be required to work even more ESA enforcement in the years to come.
What one individual thinks is the “right” thing for a WDFW Officer to do might be the “wrong” thing for another person.
Most of us were alive when there was a Wildlife Dept and a Fisheries Dept. Back then Wildlife Officers did spend most of their time in the woods and Fisheries Officers on the water. During busy times they would help each other out. But when WDFW was formed it was now everybody’s job to do the joint enforcement of ALL fish and wildlife regulations. If you were an old wildlife officer you were now tasked with doing crab enforcement, squid enforcement and so on. And guess what, the number of officers since that merger has dropped drastically.
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 08:44:51 PM
so my question to you, how do we go about streamlining the bull$hit. and have them focus on things that wont start a pissing match and maybe save face for the agency? right now it sounds like their superiors arent happy with what they are doing, and neither is the public. should we just *censored*can the whole deal and give it over to wsp? because they arent going in any useful direction.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 08:45:48 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
with all that responsibility it sounds like they shouldn't be wasting their time with this petty ante *censored*. go get a poacher. we all want more enforcement... of poachers.
Whats the definition of a poacher? Is it somebody who violates WDFW laws? Is it somebody who hunts/fish without a license? Or simply somebody who shoots something out of season? You make it sound like WDFW should only cite people who kill illegally. Loaded guns in vehicle, fail to tag, no hunter orange and so on are all ok and WDFW shouldn't be wasting their time on them. What are the chances that a WDFW Officer will be in the right place at the right time when a poacher shoots something? Is 10 hours spent looking at a clearcut waiting for a poacher but nobody showing up successful? Or would the officer better spend his time writing 15 tickets in 10 hours to hunters/fisherment?
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 08:47:03 PM
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 08:51:21 PM
Post by: grundy53 on December 15, 2010, 08:51:29 PM
i could get this guy 12 real arrests in just the first two hours of deer season, but he's cruising the butcher shops instead to pad his stats. had to vent sorry. as stated in an earlier thread, washington manages hunters, not wildlife.
WDFW is required by the state legislature to regulate the pet store, fish processor and distributor, fur dealer, taxidermist, butcher, and game farm business. They regulate them by checking them and making sure all of their fish and wildlife they are posessing are legal. Well guess what, the OP was in violation.
It's amazing how many people on here want more enforcement, but when someone on here gets cited for violating the law they complain about enforcement. :bash:
with all that responsibility it sounds like they shouldn't be wasting their time with this petty ante *censored*. go get a poacher. we all want more enforcement... of poachers.
Whats the definition of a poacher? Is it somebody who violates WDFW laws? Is it somebody who hunts/fish without a license? Or simply somebody who shoots something out of season? You make it sound like WDFW should only cite people who kill illegally. Loaded guns in vehicle, fail to tag, no hunter orange and so on are all ok and WDFW shouldn't be wasting their time on them. What are the chances that a WDFW Officer will be in the right place at the right time when a poacher shoots something? Is 10 hours spent looking at a clearcut waiting for a poacher but nobody showing up successful? Or would the officer better spend his time writing 15 tickets in 10 hours to hunters/fisherment?
Well maybe if he wasn't busy writing tickets for little *censored* he might have actually caught a poacher. and yes i feel that catching 1 poacher is worth more then 15 of these B.S tickets this guy got.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 08:55:05 PM
so my question to you, how do we go about streamlining the bull$hit. and have them focus on things that wont start a pissing match and maybe save face for the agency? right now it sounds like their superiors arent happy with what they are doing, and neither is the public. should we just *censored*can the whole deal and give it over to wsp? because they arent going in any useful direction.
I will point out this. In the 2008 staffing study there were officer comments and many of them wanted to be doing things that many on here say they should be doing, such as night time poaching patrols and sitting in the hills "protecting" animals. In fact the Enforcement Program as a whole would rather be working on those things.
The problem is the legislature. They come up with new laws and say "WDFW, enforce this" but don't give any money or personnel for them to enforce it. In the past couple years the legislature has assigned the regulation of pet stores, aquatic invasive species, cold storage facilities, and deleterious wildlife to WDFW. But they haven't provided any additional $ or manpower to do so, in fact they have decreased the $. They really are doing more with less.
Moving WDFW enforcement to WSP would only worsen things. In the two states which have wildlife enforcement with the state patrol the wildlife enforcement division always takes the brunt of budget cuts. Do you really think the WSP chief who spent his entire career doing traffic enforcement and has never stepped a day in the woods would really care if 5 wildlife officers were laid off? Probably not, but if 5 road troopers were to be laid off all hell would break loose.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 08:55:34 PM
With the new consolidation of governmental agencies due to the budget crisis, you can only expect their jobs to cover more tasks with fewer enforcement officers.
:yeah:
Right now there is a proposal to move the 8 DNR Officers into WDFW Enforcement. Sounds great doesnt it, more WDFW Officers? Here is the catch, WDFW would now be the agency in charge of enforcement on DNR lands. So not only would a WDFW Officer be responsible for doing agency land patrols on WDFW lands but also DNR lands. DNR Enforcement does a lot of ATV and Snowmobile enforcement on DNR lands, that would now be the responsibility of WDFW. There are numerous ATV events at places like Reiter, Capitol Forest and the Beverly Dunes. DNR usually sends all of their officers to work it, WDFW might send one. Well guess what, that whole operation would now be WDFW's. If the shift of DNR Enforcement to WDFW happens you will see WDFW Enforcement doing a lot more ATV, Snowmobile, Forest Product thefts enforcement on state lands.
Oh ya. That shift would happen July 1, 2012. Effective July 1,2011 two WDFW enforcement positions are slated to be eliminated. That is on top of the 2.5 positions that were eliminated this October.
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 08:59:05 PM
How many poachers are out "poaching" during hunting season? I bet alot of field interviews/investigations turn into poaching cases....
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:03:37 PM
so my question to you, how do we go about streamlining the bull$hit. and have them focus on things that wont start a pissing match and maybe save face for the agency? right now it sounds like their superiors arent happy with what they are doing, and neither is the public. should we just *censored*can the whole deal and give it over to wsp? because they arent going in any useful direction.
I will point out this. In the 2008 staffing study there were officer comments and many of them wanted to be doing things that many on here say they should be doing, such as night time poaching patrols and sitting in the hills "protecting" animals. In fact the Enforcement Program as a whole would rather be working on those things.
The problem is the legislature. They come up with new laws and say "WDFW, enforce this" but don't give any money or personnel for them to enforce it. In the past couple years the legislature has assigned the regulation of pet stores, aquatic invasive species, cold storage facilities, and deleterious wildlife to WDFW. But they haven't provided any additional $ or manpower to do so, in fact they have decreased the $. They really are doing more with less.
Moving WDFW enforcement to WSP would only worsen things. In the two states which have wildlife enforcement with the state patrol the wildlife enforcement division always takes the brunt of budget cuts. Do you really think the WSP chief who spent his entire career doing traffic enforcement and has never stepped a day in the woods would really care if 5 wildlife officers were laid off? Probably not, but if 5 road troopers were to be laid off all hell would break loose.
well this is what its coming too. they are acting like traffic cops. so what punishment would an officer get if he nodded his head and just went out in the woods anyway? actually did something useful like say caught some guys shooting elk in a spotlight. would the dept come down on him because he didnt show up in the pet store that day? seems like they all said they wanted more time in the woods but did any of them step up and do it? if there isnt additional money to fund it, why cut into what their main job was in the first place? why not say we dont have time to do that either, add another guy to do that or put it on the back burner? if they cant do their job whats the point of their salary? all this boo hoo they want us to do this. but they can still find time to write a ticket over a tag being not fully notched? Leos used to go off of protect and serve, not nickel and dime
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:03:54 PM
Guys, the season is only so long. Do you want any hunter checked at all for anything? Crap, pretty soon nobody would buy a license or tag and alot of guys would skirt the laws. The simple fact is that wildlife officers patrol and make field contacts with us because the are obligated to enforce laws and that the only time they will ever meet you is in the field, after you drop game off at a butcher, or at your friendly taxidermist. The year is 365 days long, your hunt is much shorter. What do you think wildlife officers are doing the other 300 days of the year?
How many poachers are out "poaching" during hunting season? I bet alot of field interviews/investigations turn into poaching cases....
I think people on here should really read the WDFW Enforcement quarterly reports they put out. Many of them explain how simple casual field stops turn in to huge violations.
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:08:37 PM
Guys, the season is only so long. Do you want any hunter checked at all for anything? Crap, pretty soon nobody would buy a license or tag and alot of guys would skirt the laws. The simple fact is that wildlife officers patrol and make field contacts with us because the are obligated to enforce laws and that the only time they will ever meet you is in the field, after you drop game off at a butcher, or at your friendly taxidermist. The year is 365 days long, your hunt is much shorter. What do you think wildlife officers are doing the other 300 days of the year?
How many poachers are out "poaching" during hunting season? I bet alot of field interviews/investigations turn into poaching cases....
I think people on here should really read the WDFW Enforcement quarterly reports they put out. Many of them explain how simple casual field stops turn in to huge violations.
Just because it looks good on paper doesnt mean much. Im sure the OPs case will show up as a great success on their part just for the charges brought. regardless if the judge throws them out or not.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:09:58 PM
so my question to you, how do we go about streamlining the bull$hit. and have them focus on things that wont start a pissing match and maybe save face for the agency? right now it sounds like their superiors arent happy with what they are doing, and neither is the public. should we just *censored*can the whole deal and give it over to wsp? because they arent going in any useful direction.
I will point out this. In the 2008 staffing study there were officer comments and many of them wanted to be doing things that many on here say they should be doing, such as night time poaching patrols and sitting in the hills "protecting" animals. In fact the Enforcement Program as a whole would rather be working on those things.
The problem is the legislature. They come up with new laws and say "WDFW, enforce this" but don't give any money or personnel for them to enforce it. In the past couple years the legislature has assigned the regulation of pet stores, aquatic invasive species, cold storage facilities, and deleterious wildlife to WDFW. But they haven't provided any additional $ or manpower to do so, in fact they have decreased the $. They really are doing more with less.
Moving WDFW enforcement to WSP would only worsen things. In the two states which have wildlife enforcement with the state patrol the wildlife enforcement division always takes the brunt of budget cuts. Do you really think the WSP chief who spent his entire career doing traffic enforcement and has never stepped a day in the woods would really care if 5 wildlife officers were laid off? Probably not, but if 5 road troopers were to be laid off all hell would break loose.
well this is what its coming too. they are acting like traffic cops. so what punishment would an officer get if he nodded his head and just went out in the woods anyway? actually did something useful like say caught some guys shooting elk in a spotlight. would the dept come down on him because he didnt show up in the pet store that day? seems like they all said they wanted more time in the woods but did any of them step up and do it? if there isnt additional money to fund it, why cut into what their main job was in the first place? why not say we dont have time to do that either, add another guy to do that or put it on the back burner?
What would happen if you went against your boss?
I think you need to be blaming the legislature and not WDFW. In fact WDFW is usually against the creation of the new regulations such as pet stores because they don’t provide $ for it. But WDFW’s boss is the legislature, what the legislature says WDFW needs to do they must do.
WDFW can complain all they want, and they actually do. But it comes down to the legislature. 2009 was a great example. In 2008 the staffing study was done and said in order to provide adequate coverage WDFW enforcement needed to double. In 2009 the legislature which received the report cut WDFW enforcement by seven positions….
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 09:14:16 PM
Guys, the season is only so long. Do you want any hunter checked at all for anything? Crap, pretty soon nobody would buy a license or tag and alot of guys would skirt the laws. The simple fact is that wildlife officers patrol and make field contacts with us because the are obligated to enforce laws and that the only time they will ever meet you is in the field, after you drop game off at a butcher, or at your friendly taxidermist. The year is 365 days long, your hunt is much shorter. What do you think wildlife officers are doing the other 300 days of the year?
How many poachers are out "poaching" during hunting season? I bet alot of field interviews/investigations turn into poaching cases....
I think people on here should really read the WDFW Enforcement quarterly reports they put out. Many of them explain how simple casual field stops turn in to huge violations.
Just because it looks good on paper doesnt mean much. Im sure the OPs case will show up as a great success on their part just for the charges brought. regardless if the judge throws them out or not.
What does this mean? A great success? Law enforcement is just a job. You go out and enforce laws. Nobody is setting around an office comparing "successes on infractions". Cops/gamies actually like making the big arrest, but part of the job is the mundane small stuff as well. When a case is "thrown out" officers usually review what they may have done improperly and learn from their mistake.
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:18:21 PM
Ice to be more specific the GW in quetion could have wrote any one of 3 citations. instead he is being called into court on a gross misdemeanor. Making it some worse then it was. Could be the prosecuters fault. either way its *censored*
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 09:21:07 PM
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:24:36 PM
You are correct on the fine. However unnotched tag is not considered failure to tag. There are three different crimes in regards to tagging. 1- Failure to tag 2- Intentional failure to notch tag 3- Unintential failure to notch tag.
1&2 are $361. 3 is about $160.
this is as far as im gonna go on this. dont happen to have my law library handy, seems number 2 or 3 would have been sufficient.
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:28:36 PM
It is not BS. Please recite what he should have been cited for? What RCW?
Here is the thing about WDFW violations, they require both a RCW and WAC. There are tons of violations that can be cited for under one RCW and can have a range of fines. For example Unlawful Fishing 2nd Degree can be:
No License
Closed Waters
Exceed Daily Limit
Exceed Posession Limit
Violate ANY rule of the comission
So it is hard to tell what the person was exactly cited for without the WAC. If I received a letter from the court for fishing without a license it would not say "fishing without a license" it would say "Unlawful Recerational Fishing 2nd"
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 09:29:47 PM
RCW 77.15.410
Unlawful hunting of big game — Penalty.
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree if the person:
(a) Hunts for, takes, or possesses big game and the person does not have and possess all licenses, tags, or permits required under this title;
(b) Violates any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, closed times, or any other rule governing the hunting, taking, or possession of big game; or
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:30:48 PM
You are correct on the fine. However unnotched tag is not considered failure to tag. There are three different crimes in regards to tagging. 1- Failure to tag 2- Intentional failure to notch tag 3- Unintential failure to notch tag.
1&2 are $361. 3 is about $160.
this is as far as im gonna go on this. dont happen to have my law library handy, seems number 2 or 3 would have been sufficient.
We really need to know the WAC that the individual was cited for. The OP told us it was RCW 77.15.410 but that only provides us with half of the requirement for a fishing and hunting offense.
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:33:44 PM
Chester, sorry if I sound whiny, but the RCW which was broken was 77.15.410. He will most probably be prosecuted under subsection (b) of this law. A violation of any provision of this law is a Gross Misdemenaor. This law is a catch all....
RCW 77.15.410
Unlawful hunting of big game — Penalty.
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree if the person:
(a) Hunts for, takes, or possesses big game and the person does not have and possess all licenses, tags, or permits required under this title;
(b) Violates any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, closed times, or any other rule governing the hunting, taking, or possession of big game; or
Your right it is a catch all. so why prosecute under that law instead of a lesser infraction? he had no intent to break ANY law. Discretion should be used. But somebody working for the state decided to go big on this one.
Post by: ICEMAN on December 15, 2010, 09:41:00 PM
IF the prosecutor decides to take a plea and amend the charge, that is their perogative. In the mean time, officers will use this code on the infraction.
No intent. So if you did not intend to shoot an extra duck is that OK? How about not intending to shoot a 2 point deer in a three point area, that OK too?
Post by: bigtex on December 15, 2010, 09:41:13 PM
Chester, sorry if I sound whiny, but the RCW which was broken was 77.15.410. He will most probably be prosecuted under subsection (b) of this law. A violation of any provision of this law is a Gross Misdemenaor. This law is a catch all....
RCW 77.15.410
Unlawful hunting of big game — Penalty.
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting of big game in the second degree if the person:
(a) Hunts for, takes, or possesses big game and the person does not have and possess all licenses, tags, or permits required under this title;
(b) Violates any rule of the commission or director regarding seasons, bag or possession limits, closed areas including game reserves, closed times, or any other rule governing the hunting, taking, or possession of big game; or
Your right it is a catch all. so why prosecute under that law instead of a lesser infraction? he had no intent to break ANY law. Discretion should be used. But somebody working for the state decided to go big on this one.
After having contacted the OP I now know some very important info. This incident occured in Snohomish County. In Snohomish County officers do not issue citations on the spot. An officer will make a report and send it to the prosecutor. It is then up to the prosecutor to decide what charges to file against the individual, if any. If this occured in any other county I can guarantee you the individual would have received one of the $162 or $361 fines because that is what the WDFW Officer would have cited for. But in Snohomish County it is the prosecutors decision on what charges to file. I will also add that this is not well liked by WDFW or any other agency that uses the Snohomish County system. It takes a lot of the power away from the officers who usually know the regulations better then the prosecutors and gives them to the prosecutor.
Post by: chester on December 15, 2010, 09:42:53 PM
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 15, 2010, 09:56:13 PM