Post by: jstone on December 26, 2010, 03:19:02 PM
Post by: carver52 on December 26, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
Post by: jstone on December 26, 2010, 03:26:03 PM
Post by: Machias on December 26, 2010, 03:32:46 PM
Post by: gjbruny on December 26, 2010, 04:42:08 PM
look at what we have now..... we have lost a total of 13-14 days between early and late season because of youth seasons and extended muzzle loader seasons. personally, i think the youth seasons are a joke. a child and their parents can bond just as well in an open season as they can in a youth season. infact, i think that it makes the kids feel like they are being given even more responsibility and more of a "right of passage" when they are sharing camp and standing shoulder to shoulder with with other adult hunters with loaded weapons...... not adults that are just there to take the "kids" out.... and how many parents take the kids on hunts that are actually camps anyway during the youth season. it typically means finding a place they can quickly take a kid out and get a kill under their belt.
the muzzleloader season is another one i don't agree with...... today's guns are scary accurate out to 300+ with some out to 500. what is different about one of those with a speed loader and any single shot rifle such as the encores, new england arms, ruger #1s ect? i'd probably have a different opinion if round balls or solid lead bullets without sabots were mandatory and the in-lines were not allowed. all the muzzle loader season did was infringe on both the total rifle season and archery season days allowed when infact the modern inlines, powders and projectiles that are currently allowed really are not much of a "handicap" next to a typical deer rifle. the bridge between the max effective distance of a compound hunter and a single string hunter is MUCH closer.....
who says you can't mount a sight on a traditional bow? before traditional bows became "traditional bows", many many bowhunters used sights on them. FITA and OLYMPIC archers still do and are scary accurate out to 90 meters. take the sight off a compound and how much further do you think a guy could shoot than the same guy shooting a longbow barebow?
the point i am trying to make about muzzleloaders is that they are a firearm... just a different type with just a slight disadvantage to the modern cartridge guns..... but..... they did get a separate season. so since muzzleloaders have a different season (that is a fraction of the length) than the modern gun hunters, should the "trad only" season be separate from the general archery as well as being a fraction of the length?.... it would be only fair considering the current state of affairs. i'd happily pick up the compound if it meant i could only hunt 10 days a year in a "traditional only" season.
today's muzzle loaders are singe shot rifles and bowhunters are bowhunters....... if we could go back to the two general seasons, EVERYONE would have more time in the field....... period.
Post by: Lowedog on December 26, 2010, 04:58:25 PM
Because in this state we are already divided and on our way to being conquered, IMHO. Most states out there do not have choose your weapon restrictions so you don't get the petty in fighting like we do here. Eventually once you break it down into smaller and smaller groups then the little groups have NO political voice and end up getting whatever the other user groups hand out to them. It's already happening to bowhunters. We may disagree on restrictions of certain equipment, but I will stand and fight with those guys for our season. We can't afford to be subdivided anymore than we already are. :twocents:
100% agreed!
Post by: Kain on December 26, 2010, 05:21:07 PM
It would be cool to have a totally traditional gear hunt with the longbow, buckskin, wool blanket shirt though. I would be to scared to wear any fur skin though unless it was private property.
You could all start a traditional hunting club and lease some land or something. That would be rad! Then you could ask the WDFW for a late hunt special season just on that property. I wouldnt have any problems with that.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on December 26, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on December 26, 2010, 06:22:45 PM
Because in this state we are already divided and on our way to being conquered, IMHO. Most states out there do not have choose your weapon restrictions so you don't get the petty in fighting like we do here. Eventually once you break it down into smaller and smaller groups then the little groups have NO political voice and end up getting whatever the other user groups hand out to them. It's already happening to bowhunters. We may disagree on restrictions of certain equipment, but I will stand and fight with those guys for our season. We can't afford to be subdivided anymore than we already are. :twocents::yeah:
Post by: Bean Counter on December 26, 2010, 06:35:54 PM
Post by: rooselk on December 26, 2010, 08:25:40 PM
Post by: Wa hunter on December 26, 2010, 10:40:28 PM
i am a stickbow guy and have shot them all my life. i have actually been building them for about 10-12 years. having said that, i think dividing the bow season further will only further reduce the amount of total archery season available. i think a "Trad" only season is a bad idea. the only thing we do as SINGLE STRING bowhunters is challenge ourselves to get a little closer. having said that, i have busted my arse in the last few years to get consistently accurate on game out to 40 yards and regularly practice out to 80 yards for "form" work. so really, what is the difference between me and a guy that shoots a compound? we stickbow guys are not superior in any way shape or form and do not deserve anything extra...... doing so only creates less time for archery season and animosity between bowhunters.:yeah:
look at what we have now..... we have lost a total of 13-14 days between early and late season because of youth seasons and extended muzzle loader seasons. personally, i think the youth seasons are a joke. a child and their parents can bond just as well in an open season as they can in a youth season. infact, i think that it makes the kids feel like they are being given even more responsibility and more of a "right of passage" when they are sharing camp and standing shoulder to shoulder with with other adult hunters with loaded weapons...... not adults that are just there to take the "kids" out.... and how many parents take the kids on hunts that are actually camps anyway during the youth season. it typically means finding a place they can quickly take a kid out and get a kill under their belt.
the muzzleloader season is another one i don't agree with...... today's guns are scary accurate out to 300+ with some out to 500. what is different about one of those with a speed loader and any single shot rifle such as the encores, new england arms, ruger #1s ect? i'd probably have a different opinion if round balls or solid lead bullets without sabots were mandatory and the in-lines were not allowed. all the muzzle loader season did was infringe on both the total rifle season and archery season days allowed when infact the modern inlines, powders and projectiles that are currently allowed really are not much of a "handicap" next to a typical deer rifle. the bridge between the max effective distance of a compound hunter and a single string hunter is MUCH closer.....
who says you can't mount a sight on a traditional bow? before traditional bows became "traditional bows", many many bowhunters used sights on them. FITA and OLYMPIC archers still do and are scary accurate out to 90 meters. take the sight off a compound and how much further do you think a guy could shoot than the same guy shooting a longbow barebow?
the point i am trying to make about muzzleloaders is that they are a firearm... just a different type with just a slight disadvantage to the modern cartridge guns..... but..... they did get a separate season. so since muzzleloaders have a different season (that is a fraction of the length) than the modern gun hunters, should the "trad only" season be separate from the general archery as well as being a fraction of the length?.... it would be only fair considering the current state of affairs. i'd happily pick up the compound if it meant i could only hunt 10 days a year in a "traditional only" season.
today's muzzle loaders are singe shot rifles and bowhunters are bowhunters....... if we could go back to the two general seasons, EVERYONE would have more time in the field....... period.
Post by: Lowedog on December 26, 2010, 10:57:21 PM
Post by: gjbruny on December 26, 2010, 11:44:45 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a time when we had muzzleloader only seasons that were a lot more generous than they are today? I seem to remember some general late season muzzy mule deer hunts.
yep..... and there was also a longer gun season without a 7-10 break in the middle and we also had 11-12 more days of archery season. that is my point exactly!
*****Start further dividing seasons and it doesn't create opportunities....... it cannibalizes them!******
Post by: Lowedog on December 27, 2010, 12:36:10 AM
Post by: krout81 on December 27, 2010, 02:43:03 AM
Post by: Buckrub on December 27, 2010, 08:40:09 AM
There is to much division currently...no more wood on the fire needed. :bdid:
Post by: Snapshot on December 27, 2010, 10:16:47 AM
Has anybody thought about asking the WDFW about having a Traditional late archery unit. Long bows or Recurves only. And wooden arrows. ??? :dunno: :dunno:
The question of whether an area or a unit could be designated as 'primitive only' has been and will probably continue to be discussed. It could not be just for archery; it would have to be for all user groups (but at different times, of course). Iron sight rifles, flintlock muzzleloaders, barebows that bend. Anyone could pick one of those up and hunt the area/unit so how it could be said to be exclusive/divisive is beyond me. But I am old fashioned in that I have never owned an arrow-flinging device that didn't bend and I've not shot my deer rifle since about 1975-6. So I think differently than many, if not most, about hunting and the challenges it represents. I also have more ways to fix 'tag' than most people. There's tag-gumbo, there's tag...
Post by: sakoshooter on December 27, 2010, 10:08:45 PM
i am a stickbow guy and have shot them all my life. i have actually been building them for about 10-12 years. having said that, i think dividing the bow season further will only further reduce the amount of total archery season available. i think a "Trad" only season is a bad idea. the only thing we do as SINGLE STRING bowhunters is challenge ourselves to get a little closer. having said that, i have busted my arse in the last few years to get consistently accurate on game out to 40 yards and regularly practice out to 80 yards for "form" work. so really, what is the difference between me and a guy that shoots a compound? we stickbow guys are not superior in any way shape or form and do not deserve anything extra...... doing so only creates less time for archery season and animosity between bowhunters.
look at what we have now..... we have lost a total of 13-14 days between early and late season because of youth seasons and extended muzzle loader seasons. personally, i think the youth seasons are a joke. a child and their parents can bond just as well in an open season as they can in a youth season. infact, i think that it makes the kids feel like they are being given even more responsibility and more of a "right of passage" when they are sharing camp and standing shoulder to shoulder with with other adult hunters with loaded weapons...... not adults that are just there to take the "kids" out.... and how many parents take the kids on hunts that are actually camps anyway during the youth season. it typically means finding a place they can quickly take a kid out and get a kill under their belt.
the muzzleloader season is another one i don't agree with...... today's guns are scary accurate out to 300+ with some out to 500. what is different about one of those with a speed loader and any single shot rifle such as the encores, new england arms, ruger #1s ect? i'd probably have a different opinion if round balls or solid lead bullets without sabots were mandatory and the in-lines were not allowed. all the muzzle loader season did was infringe on both the total rifle season and archery season days allowed when infact the modern inlines, powders and projectiles that are currently allowed really are not much of a "handicap" next to a typical deer rifle. the bridge between the max effective distance of a compound hunter and a single string hunter is MUCH closer.....
who says you can't mount a sight on a traditional bow? before traditional bows became "traditional bows", many many bowhunters used sights on them. FITA and OLYMPIC archers still do and are scary accurate out to 90 meters. take the sight off a compound and how much further do you think a guy could shoot than the same guy shooting a longbow barebow?
the point i am trying to make about muzzleloaders is that they are a firearm... just a different type with just a slight disadvantage to the modern cartridge guns..... but..... they did get a separate season. so since muzzleloaders have a different season (that is a fraction of the length) than the modern gun hunters, should the "trad only" season be separate from the general archery as well as being a fraction of the length?.... it would be only fair considering the current state of affairs. i'd happily pick up the compound if it meant i could only hunt 10 days a year in a "traditional only" season.
today's muzzle loaders are singe shot rifles and bowhunters are bowhunters....... if we could go back to the two general seasons, EVERYONE would have more time in the field....... period.
Very well put Sir. I wholeheartedly agree.
Post by: Gobble Gobble on December 27, 2010, 10:59:37 PM
I'm a bow hunter and I say one archery season no need to complicate thing anymore than they already are with equipment restrictions. I you as me I'd like to see equality with weapons in every unit meaning all 3 weapons have a season. Take Bethel Unit 360 this year for Elk there was a muzzle & modern seasons but ARCHERY was DRAW ONLY. Whats that about?
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2010, 11:18:24 PM
I'd like to see equality with weapons in every unit meaning all 3 weapons have a season. Take Bethel Unit 360 this year for Elk there was a muzzle & modern seasons but ARCHERY was DRAW ONLY. Whats that about?
The modern and muzzleloader seasons were spike only general season, correct? The archery draw permit was probably for any bull? That's the difference. Modern and muzzleloader had to draw a permit also for "any bull." It just so happened that they didn't have it open for general archery season. But I'm sure there were plenty of other units open for archery.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 27, 2010, 11:22:50 PM
the point i am trying to make about muzzleloaders is that they are a firearm... just a different type with just a slight disadvantage to the modern cartridge guns..... but..... they did get a separate season. so since muzzleloaders have a different season (that is a fraction of the length) than the modern gun hunters, should the "trad only" season be separate from the general archery as well as being a fraction of the length?.... it would be only fair considering the current state of affairs. i'd happily pick up the compound if it meant i could only hunt 10 days a year in a "traditional only" season.
Very well put Sir. I wholeheartedly agree.
Not necessarily the case. The modern elk season for the westside was 11 days long--entire westside (unless you had a special tag). The muzzleloaders had an early season of 7 days on the westside, and up to 22 days in the late season. So 29 days total for muzzy. Yes, the available units can be apples to oranges. Seems like the muzzy guys are getting a good deal. So if you split archery into trad/mod, who knows....you may actually get more days than the season you split from. I'm not advocating the split, just pointing out how the muzzy guys fared. My wish is that all the seasons would be combined and no weapon selection required, but that is a Jerry Garcia pipe dream.
Post by: Snapshot on December 28, 2010, 09:11:01 AM
Seems like the muzzy guys are getting a good deal... ...just pointing out how the muzzy guys fared.
The muzzy guys will continue to 'fare well' because the top dogs at the WDFW (Big Game Manager, for example) hunt with muzzleloaders! Smoke that!
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 09:36:08 AM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 06:47:50 PM
Post by: Tony 270 on December 28, 2010, 06:58:33 PM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 07:01:16 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 08:15:02 PM
If WA was to do this I wonder if one would be required to declare traditional or primitive like we do now for modern, archery and muzzy? Or would these primitive equipment hunts be open to anyone carrying an archery or muzzy tag and that they would just have to use the correct equipment?
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 08:41:51 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 08:52:26 PM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 09:01:15 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 09:16:53 PM
I'd actually prefer a primitive tag or even better, a primitive license for all game animals.
I don't see that happening. I honestly don't even see primitive weapon hunts happening.
Post by: jstone on December 28, 2010, 09:25:46 PM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
I'd actually prefer a primitive tag or even better, a primitive license for all game animals.
I don't see that happening. I honestly don't even see primitive weapon hunts happening.
They already happen in other states. So it's not unimagineable.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 28, 2010, 09:30:13 PM
Because in this state we are already divided and on our way to being conquered, IMHO. Most states out there do not have choose your weapon restrictions so you don't get the petty in fighting like we do here. Eventually once you break it down into smaller and smaller groups then the little groups have NO political voice and end up getting whatever the other user groups hand out to them. It's already happening to bowhunters. We may disagree on restrictions of certain equipment, but I will stand and fight with those guys for our season. We can't afford to be subdivided anymore than we already are. :twocents::yeah:
The WDFW doesn't want to divide user groups. It's already a complicated allocation process as it is. Do you make master hunters a user group? Magnum vs standard cartridge user groups? Scopes vs iron sites? Advanced muzzleloaders vs ball and patch guys? WDFW wants 3 simple groups. Groups like the TBW, WSAA, and WSB are already working hard to keep and give you as much season as possible in the face of staunch opposition. Groups like this have fought hard for decades to get and keep archery seasons for all of us archers. The leaders of these groups have put together a coalition to stand together on bowhunting issues that are important to us. As much as we want to quibble about minor equipment issues the other user groups can't wait to divide up the bowhunters and take our allocation. They don't hide that fact either...
Post by: remington300mag on December 28, 2010, 09:30:17 PM
Muzzle loader......9 days
Modern Rifle......9 days
Archery......33 days
I would say the archery guys could give up a few of their days so that there could be a traditional season..... Wouldn't want to be greedy now.....would we?!?!
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 09:43:57 PM
Because in this state we are already divided and on our way to being conquered, IMHO. Most states out there do not have choose your weapon restrictions so you don't get the petty in fighting like we do here. Eventually once you break it down into smaller and smaller groups then the little groups have NO political voice and end up getting whatever the other user groups hand out to them. It's already happening to bowhunters. We may disagree on restrictions of certain equipment, but I will stand and fight with those guys for our season. We can't afford to be subdivided anymore than we already are. :twocents::yeah:
The WDFW doesn't want to divide user groups. It's already a complicated allocation process as it is. Do you make master hunters a user group? Magnum vs standard cartridge user groups? Scopes vs iron sites? Advanced muzzleloaders vs ball and patch guys? WDFW wants 3 simple groups. Groups like the TBW, WSAA, and WSB are already working hard to keep and give you as much season as possible in the face of staunch opposition. Groups like this have fought hard for decades to get and keep archery seasons for all of us archers. The leaders of these groups have put together a coalition to stand together on bowhunting issues that are important to us. As much as we want to quibble about minor equipment issues the other user groups can't wait to divide up the bowhunters and take our allocation. They don't hide that fact either...
Are you preaching division among archers? I see you personally promoting lumenocks as OK but if someone promotes traditional only areas then it's a bad idea because it is a division. Seems like there's room for division if it fits your personal agenda. But don't call it division. Just call it practical I guess. The real fact is there are existing and working traditional only hunts in the Pacific Northwest which do not divide user groups. Why? Because the target user base is so small that their impact is miniscule. Therefore the hoopla that it is divisional is really just that.
The master hunters already consider themselves a user group and the WDFW already does as well. Having a unit or two open for traditional archers is simply not a division as so suggested. In fact some of the original archery seasons in the state of Washington were bowhunting only areas like Nason Creek. It's not even a concept which is completely alien to Washington. The WDFW is all about money. If they can get extra money from something like this then it has a higher likelihood of passing.
As far as WSB, TBW and WSAA working in unison... I'm not so sure on that. I've been hearing otherwise among my friends and comrades. I respect most of the work done there but that doesn't mean they work in unison on the most critical issues. Just an observation from the peanut gallery that was pointed out to me by several people.
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 09:49:36 PM
This year in the Chelan county area for mule deer the general seasons were divided out like this.....
Muzzle loader......9 days
Modern Rifle......9 days
Archery......33 days
I would say the archery guys could give up a few of their days so that there could be a traditional season..... Wouldn't want to be greedy now.....would we?!?!
Both modern and traditional archery hunters have 33 days right now. If we were to divide that up we all lose.
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 09:52:29 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on December 28, 2010, 10:48:01 PM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 10:51:56 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 11:03:38 PM
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 11:07:10 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 28, 2010, 11:09:29 PM
This year in the Chelan county area for mule deer the general seasons were divided out like this.....
Muzzle loader......9 days
Modern Rifle......9 days
Archery......33 days
I would say the archery guys could give up a few of their days so that there could be a traditional season..... Wouldn't want to be greedy now.....would we?!?!
It takes longer for archers to fill their quota. If they all had the same amount of days rifle would kill 95% of the animals. It's about allocation, not length of season.
The master hunters already consider themselves a user group and the WDFW already does as well.
As far as WSB, TBW and WSAA working in unison... I'm not so sure on that. I've been hearing otherwise among my friends and comrades. I respect most of the work done there but that doesn't mean they work in unison on the most critical issues. Just an observation from the peanut gallery that was pointed out to me by several people.
Master hunters are not a user group and they have said they don't want to be. At the last WDFW meeting this was discussed. Additionally, the WDFW only considers there to be 3 user groups...archery, modern firearm, and muzzleloader. I'll provide the last meeting minutes if you need.
I thank and respect all the hard work the archery coalition has done to help protect our sport. They have worked in unison on all the critical issues for years.
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2010, 11:11:46 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 28, 2010, 11:18:27 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 28, 2010, 11:47:30 PM
i am a stickbow guy and have shot them all my life. i have actually been building them for about 10-12 years. having said that, i think dividing the bow season further will only further reduce the amount of total archery season available. i think a "Trad" only season is a bad idea. the only thing we do as SINGLE STRING bowhunters is challenge ourselves to get a little closer. having said that, i have busted my arse in the last few years to get consistently accurate on game out to 40 yards and regularly practice out to 80 yards for "form" work. so really, what is the difference between me and a guy that shoots a compound? we stickbow guys are not superior in any way shape or form and do not deserve anything extra...... doing so only creates less time for archery season and animosity between bowhunters.:yeah:
look at what we have now..... we have lost a total of 13-14 days between early and late season because of youth seasons and extended muzzle loader seasons. personally, i think the youth seasons are a joke. a child and their parents can bond just as well in an open season as they can in a youth season. infact, i think that it makes the kids feel like they are being given even more responsibility and more of a "right of passage" when they are sharing camp and standing shoulder to shoulder with with other adult hunters with loaded weapons...... not adults that are just there to take the "kids" out.... and how many parents take the kids on hunts that are actually camps anyway during the youth season. it typically means finding a place they can quickly take a kid out and get a kill under their belt.
the muzzleloader season is another one i don't agree with...... today's guns are scary accurate out to 300+ with some out to 500. what is different about one of those with a speed loader and any single shot rifle such as the encores, new england arms, ruger #1s ect? i'd probably have a different opinion if round balls or solid lead bullets without sabots were mandatory and the in-lines were not allowed. all the muzzle loader season did was infringe on both the total rifle season and archery season days allowed when infact the modern inlines, powders and projectiles that are currently allowed really are not much of a "handicap" next to a typical deer rifle. the bridge between the max effective distance of a compound hunter and a single string hunter is MUCH closer.....
who says you can't mount a sight on a traditional bow? before traditional bows became "traditional bows", many many bowhunters used sights on them. FITA and OLYMPIC archers still do and are scary accurate out to 90 meters. take the sight off a compound and how much further do you think a guy could shoot than the same guy shooting a longbow barebow?
the point i am trying to make about muzzleloaders is that they are a firearm... just a different type with just a slight disadvantage to the modern cartridge guns..... but..... they did get a separate season. so since muzzleloaders have a different season (that is a fraction of the length) than the modern gun hunters, should the "trad only" season be separate from the general archery as well as being a fraction of the length?.... it would be only fair considering the current state of affairs. i'd happily pick up the compound if it meant i could only hunt 10 days a year in a "traditional only" season.
today's muzzle loaders are singe shot rifles and bowhunters are bowhunters....... if we could go back to the two general seasons, EVERYONE would have more time in the field....... period.
GJ.. I have a lot of respect for your views... rare amongst Trad archers that I have personally met. The arrogant attitude of most Trad archers I meet is the only thing that has kept me from joining (or attempting join) your ranks.
Post by: krout81 on December 29, 2010, 12:41:33 AM
Post by: xXx Archery on December 29, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
The unit in Oregon is a permit hunt. Just with traditional equipment. It is a working example.... I don't know why people say it will not work when it already does.
Ray is it really working last time i was in that unit..there was 3 Trad hunters? so I guess its working for 3 of them. the BIG ? is WHY. why cant the Comp. hunters hunt with you? is there bow so loud it scares your game? is it your getting ready to shoot a Deer at 20 yards and some guy shoots it first at 50?...I just don't see WHY...and Why would it not be fair for Trad. to have there own units but Comp cant?..I feel its Archery season and WE ALL are Archers..
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 08:28:16 AM
The unit in Oregon is a permit hunt. Just with traditional equipment. It is a working example.... I don't know why people say it will not work when it already does.
Ray is it really working last time i was in that unit..there was 3 Trad hunters? so I guess its working for 3 of them. the BIG ? is WHY. why cant the Comp. hunters hunt with you? is there bow so loud it scares your game? is it your getting ready to shoot a Deer at 20 yards and some guy shoots it first at 50?...I just don't see WHY...and Why would it not be fair for Trad. to have there own units but Comp cant?..I feel its Archery season and WE ALL are Archers..
Corey when you said is there a bow so loud to scare the game I decided your questions were not worth answering. You've played your shenanigans on the topic as well with the comments regarding women. I tried to ignore it but you're just acting like an instigator. If you wanted to be an ass, you succeeded.
As far as archery all being together and then why do you guys need lights on the arrows? I think it's time we put the traditional season on the map. I'm all for the division if you want to call it that. Although it is non existant and a complete fabrication and rush to bolster emotional opposition against it. The fact is, I didn't feel this way a few years ago. After more thought I have concluded it is a good idea. If that is too much for you to swallow without throwing stupid remarks in, then just don't bother replying.
Post by: Tony 270 on December 29, 2010, 10:04:37 AM
Not seeing what exactly it is you want and why. What would the real benefit be, and why can't you get that same benefit by changing your hunting habits or location?
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 10:16:36 AM
Post by: Lowedog on December 29, 2010, 10:29:58 AM
One thing I'm not getting is that some want traditional only for greater opportunity. Opportunity for what? Is that for more season time? You already have the entire archery season. Early and late even. Do you want more time still? Or do you want areas with low pressure that haven't had the other archers around? Why not just go to a more remote area if you want less pressure? In the five years I've gone archery, Oregon and Washington, I've come across a total of less than 10 other hunters. I'm not seeing pressure, but maybe that's because I don't hunt where the big crowds are.
Not seeing what exactly it is you want and why. What would the real benefit be, and why can't you get that same benefit by changing your hunting habits or location?
That is the part of it I don't get. Most of the state is open for early archery deer for almost the entire month of Sept. How much more opportunity does a person need? I rarely see other archery hunters out for deer in Sept. There are plenty of opportunities for elk also that if a person did their homework they can have a quality hunting experience with very little hunting pressure from other archers.
There is also a lot of archery only permits that offer incredible hunting opportunities if drawn.
Post by: xXx Archery on December 29, 2010, 10:40:37 AM
The unit in Oregon is a permit hunt. Just with traditional equipment. It is a working example.... I don't know why people say it will not work when it already does.
Ray is it really working last time i was in that unit..there was 3 Trad hunters? so I guess its working for 3 of them. the BIG ? is WHY. why cant the Comp. hunters hunt with you? is there bow so loud it scares your game? is it your getting ready to shoot a Deer at 20 yards and some guy shoots it first at 50?...I just don't see WHY...and Why would it not be fair for Trad. to have there own units but Comp cant?..I feel its Archery season and WE ALL are Archers..
Corey when you said is there a bow so loud to scare the game I decided your questions were not worth answering. You've played your shenanigans on the topic as well with the comments regarding women. I tried to ignore it but you're just acting like an instigator. If you wanted to be an ass, you succeeded.
As far as archery all being together and then why do you guys need lights on the arrows? I think it's time we put the traditional season on the map. I'm all for the division if you want to call it that. Although it is non existant and a complete fabrication and rush to bolster emotional opposition against it. The fact is, I didn't feel this way a few years ago. After more thought I have concluded it is a good idea. If that is too much for you to swallow without throwing stupid remarks in, then just don't bother replying.
Ray...I'm not trying to be a ass....I DO NOT see any reason for it. I asked you WHY cant you hunt with US? WE are ALL archers...As for your reasons you cant hunt with us that's is the STUPID remarks...and I would like like to hear them from you...WHY cant you hunt with US? ....what does Lighted Nocks have to do with us all being Archers? If I don't want to use them does not mean I'm not a archer?...that's like saying only guys that use XX75's are archers. its called choice....and I'm happy we have them...
Cory
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 11:06:25 AM
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 11:08:26 AM
One thing I'm not getting is that some want traditional only for greater opportunity. Opportunity for what? Is that for more season time? You already have the entire archery season. Early and late even. Do you want more time still? Or do you want areas with low pressure that haven't had the other archers around? Why not just go to a more remote area if you want less pressure? In the five years I've gone archery, Oregon and Washington, I've come across a total of less than 10 other hunters. I'm not seeing pressure, but maybe that's because I don't hunt where the big crowds are.
Not seeing what exactly it is you want and why. What would the real benefit be, and why can't you get that same benefit by changing your hunting habits or location?
That is the part of it I don't get. Most of the state is open for early archery deer for almost the entire month of Sept. How much more opportunity does a person need? I rarely see other archery hunters out for deer in Sept. There are plenty of opportunities for elk also that if a person did their homework they can have a quality hunting experience with very little hunting pressure from other archers.
There is also a lot of archery only permits that offer incredible hunting opportunities if drawn.
I guess we can agree to disagree. But the idea is not that far fetched, it isn't a long shot either.
Post by: huntnnw on December 29, 2010, 12:15:04 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on December 29, 2010, 12:45:21 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 29, 2010, 01:05:31 PM
Now I would be more supportive if the state took some state land within a unit/units and made it Trad only.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 29, 2010, 01:08:46 PM
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 01:09:26 PM
Again, there is no split. That's just hogwash talk.
Post by: bobcat on December 29, 2010, 01:15:17 PM
Post by: singleshot12 on December 29, 2010, 01:25:58 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 29, 2010, 01:27:14 PM
Need is not very high on the relevance factor. For example - Archers don't need a lot of things - let off, drop away rests, rangefinders, lumenocks... etc
Again, there is no split. That's just hogwash talk.
Ray,
I wil agree with you that Archers don't "need" those things. However, the difference is an Archer using a let-off, drop away rests, rangefinders etc... have a near ZERO impact on you. It certainly isn't taking away anything from you. Making a whole unit Trad Only is taking away from others who choose not to hunt Trad Only (or if disabled may not be able to hunt Trad only)
As far as their not being a split amongst different user groups....you must be seeing something completely different than me becasue I think it is rampant...and I think this would only make it worse.
Post by: xXx Archery on December 29, 2010, 02:37:39 PM
from you RAY "As far as archery all being together and then why do you guys need lights on the arrows? " what are you trying to Say?...I never said I want lighted nocks?....I just want to KNOW WHY...you think it would be good to separate to groups of ARCHERS. ...is it to many hunters? what tell me....in my eyes we are ALL ARCHERS ....what is it in your eye's?...by saying only Trad hunters can hunt in a unit does and is a separation of archers.
Tell me some good reasons it would be good for us as hunters to give some units to hunter for the type of bow they shoot? and give me some FACTS how it helped in Oregon. Ray Im not maken this personal ...but I feel like you are trying really hard to make it personal with ME.
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 02:42:36 PM
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 02:47:52 PM
Need is not very high on the relevance factor. For example - Archers don't need a lot of things - let off, drop away rests, rangefinders, lumenocks... etc
Again, there is no split. That's just hogwash talk.
Ray,
I wil agree with you that Archers don't "need" those things. However, the difference is an Archer using a let-off, drop away rests, rangefinders etc... have a near ZERO impact on you. It certainly isn't taking away anything from you. Making a whole unit Trad Only is taking away from others who choose not to hunt Trad Only (or if disabled may not be able to hunt Trad only)
As far as their not being a split amongst different user groups....you must be seeing something completely different than me becasue I think it is rampant...and I think this would only make it worse.
Yes, and a trad opening will have zero impact on you. You're simply skeptical and have not provided good reasoning how it would negatively impact you or anyone else other than hyperbole. For example you have taken one idea in your head and decided that is how I think and how the entire idea would work. Yet you have not asked any details. You are simply reactionary to the idea as far as I can tell. Why do I say this? Look at your response. It talks about a unit and cutting off archers and a lot of assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.
Post by: xXx Archery on December 29, 2010, 03:00:09 PM
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 03:06:20 PM
Your final response is so ridiculous it actually proves my points about a lack of good faith conversation.
Post by: singleshot12 on December 29, 2010, 03:08:57 PM
Post by: dirty24d on December 29, 2010, 03:15:05 PM
:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
:jacked: :chuckle:
Post by: remington300mag on December 29, 2010, 03:18:05 PM
Who's With Me?!?!?! :bdid:
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Post by: remington300mag on December 29, 2010, 03:23:48 PM
Except we don't have to have a season. We could have a permit or even a unit or three open for a short extension. Pick up a stick bow and apply or whatever.
I see what your saying Ray. Problem is, as soon as they gave that type of permit out, or opened an area up for traditional archery, you would have user groups jumping out of the wood work wanting something comparable. The way our game department works they would have it all screwed up in no time at all!
Post by: singleshot12 on December 29, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
To me it is the same as having a certain lake open to fly fishing only vs. anything other.
Fly fishermen and traditional archers consider themselves as purists and separate from other forms of hunting and fishing anyways.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 29, 2010, 03:55:57 PM
Need is not very high on the relevance factor. For example - Archers don't need a lot of things - let off, drop away rests, rangefinders, lumenocks... etc
Again, there is no split. That's just hogwash talk.
Ray,
I wil agree with you that Archers don't "need" those things. However, the difference is an Archer using a let-off, drop away rests, rangefinders etc... have a near ZERO impact on you. It certainly isn't taking away anything from you. Making a whole unit Trad Only is taking away from others who choose not to hunt Trad Only (or if disabled may not be able to hunt Trad only)
As far as their not being a split amongst different user groups....you must be seeing something completely different than me becasue I think it is rampant...and I think this would only make it worse.
Yes, and a trad opening will have zero impact on you. You're simply skeptical and have not provided good reasoning how it would negatively impact you or anyone else other than hyperbole. For example you have taken one idea in your head and decided that is how I think and how the entire idea would work. Yet you have not asked any details. You are simply reactionary to the idea as far as I can tell. Why do I say this? Look at your response. It talks about a unit and cutting off archers and a lot of assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.
Ray,
You are right. I just went back and read the original question again. I am way off target on this one. I kept staring at the title of the post "Traditional only unit"... I felt safe making certain assumptions when I was thinking along those lines (like the fact other user groups wold have an entire unit closed to them). Please disregard my prior rhetoric.
I can definitely support more opportunities for hunters of any user group. Especially one with as many self imposed limits as Trad Archery.
I really wish we didn't have "choose your weapon". There are advantages to it but I do it divides hunters because everyone wants the best possible seasons. I think we could get a lot more done as a group if it wasn't for those types of game laws.
Post by: Tony 270 on December 29, 2010, 04:03:42 PM
If you think it should be a draw option for a few extra days, an extension as you put it, is it really necessary with the near two months you already have? Do you really need more time?
I don't know where you hunt, but like I said, in five years of bowhunting I've come across less than 10 people total. If you count those parked at the gate, you could probably call it 15 to 20. Total.
Maybe I missed over it in the six pages here, but I just don't see what the advantage really is. There is a lot of opportunity for archers and you want more for the traditional hunters. What more do you need?
Post by: Wenatcheejay on December 29, 2010, 04:10:22 PM
How about a unit where we run whole herds over a cliff?
Post by: remington300mag on December 29, 2010, 04:22:07 PM
Post by: jstone on December 29, 2010, 05:02:40 PM
Post by: argali on December 29, 2010, 05:11:38 PM
Post by: Wa hunter on December 29, 2010, 05:15:44 PM
Post by: Ray on December 29, 2010, 05:54:09 PM
If you are serous about a traditional only season go to the game dept and tell them you are willing to start a primitive enhancement stamp for 50-100 bucks. I bet it would be in the regs next year.
I agree.
Post by: rasbo on December 29, 2010, 06:01:05 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on December 29, 2010, 06:07:57 PM
Post by: NoBark on December 29, 2010, 06:38:54 PM
I think there would have to be certain requirements for this to happen fairly. It CAN'T take away any time from the modern archery hunts. Can't take away any modern archery units. So, either an extention beyond in a modern unit OR open in a now closed unit.
As far as it affecting modern or modern affecting traditional, all I can say is our late seasons are alot shorter than they used to be and I am assuming it's because we are reaching our success level sooner now than before. Therefore, I would say that increasing range and willingness to shoot at further distances over the last 20 years has reduced our season length in Washington.
I hate to think it would split the hunting community up. I just don't understand why people get riled up over it. Think about it for a second. As it is currently administered, it doesn't matter what weopon you choose, your group success is approximately the same. No group has a 'leg up' on any other. So, why complain??? Besides, if you do complain we could all end up in the same season again! Can you imagin that? Remember those days? :yike: There really is an advantage to choosing weapons in this state. :twocents:
Post by: quadrafire on December 29, 2010, 07:27:00 PM
I really wish we didn't have "choose your weapon". There are advantages to it but I do it divides hunters because everyone wants the best possible seasons. I think we could get a lot more done as a group if it wasn't for those types of game laws.
I have read every page of this discussion and this is the most relevant to our hunting as a whole!!IMO
Say we can only kill one deer in this state during a season. Why does it matter which weapon we use? I think it is absolutely bogus that we have to declare a weapon. The state has us over a barrel and we think it is GREAT if we draw a multi season tag (WE PAY FOR IT OUT THE A$$)
Granted I grew up in a state that we could hunt all three weapons in one year (kill more deer as well), BUT one deer is one deer. Who cares how it is harvested??
I do not want to see the archery season reduced, but I don't see why it would be so hard for us to "ALL" draw multi and not have to pay extra. We quit hunting when we harvest our animal. PERIOD!!
Post by: bobcat on December 29, 2010, 07:35:45 PM
Post by: quadrafire on December 29, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
quadrafire, Each person is only allowed one deer but that doesn't mean everybody kills a deer every year. It's around 1 deer killed for every 5 hunters. To allow everyone to hunt all the seasons would no doubt increase that percentage by a lot. That is why it matters. They regulate the number of deer harvested by limiting the time that each hunter gets to hunt. What would happen if they were to allow every person to hunt archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm seasons is that each of those season would have to be drastically reduced in length to account for all the additional hunters.Guess I hadn't thought it through that much. I started hunting in Missouri (lots of deer) I hadn't figured in the added success rate in my thinking. Do we really not have that many deer here?? Am I just that nieve in my thinking? Probably!
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 29, 2010, 07:46:04 PM
quadrafire, Each person is only allowed one deer but that doesn't mean everybody kills a deer every year. It's around 1 deer killed for every 5 hunters. To allow everyone to hunt all the seasons would no doubt increase that percentage by a lot. That is why it matters. They regulate the number of deer harvested by limiting the time that each hunter gets to hunt. What would happen if they were to allow every person to hunt archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm seasons is that each of those season would have to be drastically reduced in length to account for all the additional hunters.
I can see your point on this. I know WA has issues that are unique to WA but I do find it interesting that nearly every other state can find a way to make it work. It would be interesting to see how much they would need to shorten the overall seasons to meet and not exceed the harvest goals.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 29, 2010, 07:58:24 PM
quadrafire, Each person is only allowed one deer but that doesn't mean everybody kills a deer every year. It's around 1 deer killed for every 5 hunters. To allow everyone to hunt all the seasons would no doubt increase that percentage by a lot. That is why it matters. They regulate the number of deer harvested by limiting the time that each hunter gets to hunt. What would happen if they were to allow every person to hunt archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm seasons is that each of those season would have to be drastically reduced in length to account for all the additional hunters.
Even if they did let everyone hunt what ever season they wanted not everyone is going to kill something and not everyone is going to hunt every season either. From my understanding this state used to have way more hunters before they implemented CYW and they didn't have any problems managing for adequate numbers of game then, so why would it be different now if we went back to the way it used to be. We have less hunters now too.
Post by: NoBark on December 29, 2010, 09:25:18 PM
IF we could hunt any season, here is my 'quess' at season lengths
early archery 5-7 days in sept
modern firearm 4 days max
muzzleloader 6-8 days
late archery 5-7 days in Nov
There is a limit to how many deer are harvested......everybody wants to hunt........everybody wants a 'quality' experience.........
everybody wants to hunt for an extended period of time............
I'll take longer seasons with a bow only ANYDAY over the senerio above
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 29, 2010, 09:45:12 PM
Hunter numbers may be down but I sure can't see any evidence of that in the archery seasons I hunt. More now than ever.
IF we could hunt any season, here is my 'quess' at season lengths
early archery 5-7 days in sept
modern firearm 4 days max
muzzleloader 6-8 days
late archery 5-7 days in Nov
There is a limit to how many deer are harvested......everybody wants to hunt........everybody wants a 'quality' experience.........
everybody wants to hunt for an extended period of time............
I'll take longer seasons with a bow only ANYDAY over the senerio above
Combine all those days and that would equal the shortest hunting seasons in the nation by far. I doubt it would require that drastic of a change. What they could do is shift around the seasons to manage the herds. For instance most states that have decent herds don't have a rifle season during their pre-rut/rut.
Post by: tlbradford on December 29, 2010, 10:02:04 PM
Post by: Snapshot on December 29, 2010, 11:40:04 PM
Cheers. :brew:
Post by: gjbruny on December 29, 2010, 11:54:41 PM
More wounded animals? :rolleyes:
How about a unit where we run whole herds over a cliff?
is that what you did with the buffalo in your avitar. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: just razz'n ya. ;)
honestly, i'd have to agree and i'd get flamed on this one (and have :P) over on the trad sites..... but it is true. as a percentage within the groups, i'd say that more animals are wounded with sticks than compounds. i have been to MANY trad only shoots and MANY MANY guys (more like the majority of them) have absolutely no business shooting at animals with single string bows...... scratch that, single string bows without sights..... you know, cause sights were never used on traditional bows before traditional bows were considered traditional. :rolleyes:
one thing is for certain, if they did have a trad season or unit, the hunter should have to pass a proficency test..... if a guy can't consistently put it in the vitals at 20 yards on foam under optimal conditions, how are they supposed to do it at 15 when they have specific clothing on that can get in the way, limited time to draw, and their heart is about to jump out of their chest.
but i also think (and have said for years) a proficiency test should be for all of us archers not just those of us that hunt with single strings. though it wouldn't make up for poor decisions in the field, it might curb the ones that have no business out there to begin with.
Post by: gjbruny on December 30, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
More wounded animals? :rolleyes:
How about a unit where we run whole herds over a cliff?
is that what you did with the buffalo in your avitar. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: just razz'n ya. ;)
honestly, i'd have to agree and i'd get flamed on this one (and have :P) over on the trad sites..... but it is true. as a percentage within the groups, i'd say that more animals are wounded with sticks than compounds. i have been to MANY trad only shoots and MANY MANY guys (more like the majority of them) have absolutely no business shooting at animals with single string bows...... scratch that, single string bows without sights..... you know, cause sights were never used on traditional bows before traditional bows were considered traditional. :rolleyes: being "over bowed" is a big problem for stickbow guys as well which causes poor form and misses.
one thing is for certain, if they did have a trad season or unit, the hunter should have to pass a proficency test..... if a guy can't consistently put it in the vitals at 20 yards on foam under optimal conditions, how are they supposed to do it at 15 when they have specific clothing on that can get in the way, limited time to draw, and their heart is about to jump out of their chest.
but i also think (and have said for years) a proficiency test should be for all of us archers not just those of us that hunt with single strings. though it wouldn't make up for poor decisions in the field, it might curb the ones that have no business out there to begin with.
Post by: Snapshot on December 30, 2010, 12:57:38 AM
I'd say that more animals are wounded with sticks than compounds. i have been to MANY trad only shoots and MANY MANY guys (more like the majority of them) have absolutely no business shooting at animals with single string bows...
I know some compound hunters and not a single year in eighteen has gone by where, while sharing stories of our respective hunting trips, I haven't been told by them, "We crippled one and never found it." Some years it has been more than one; deer, elk and occasionally bear. And the stories of wounded and unrecovered animals INVARIABLY begins with, "I put my sixty (or eighty) yard pin on him and..." Then comes the "took a step" or "a branch I didn't see" part followed by the drawn out tale of following blood "until it got dark" or "until it started raining". And these guys fill tags year after year. They are capable hunters but grew up as rifle hunters and switched because of the longer seasons.
That being said, what people do at a 3-D shoot has no bearing on their decision-making while hunting. And most of the people who shoot traditional 3-D do not even hunt; they are recreational shooters.
So I'd say what you say doesn't hold water but that is just me, using my measuring cup. ;)
Post by: gjbruny on December 30, 2010, 02:35:42 AM
putting the 60 yard pin on something is no different than shooting at one at 25 when they are only proficient at 15 (just an example). bottom line is, a hunting weight single string bow with sights is harder to consistently shoot accurately than a compound. take off the sights (because most in the trad ranks don't think sights are traditional LOL!) and shoot with an aiming method (gap, point of aim ect) or instinctive seriously compounds the difficulty. it only stands to reason that a less accurate weapon will produce more wounded animals. i take wounding seriously but it is a fact and one that i personally can live with. take two guys with two identical sets of ethical standards and at the end of their life, ask which one wounded more animals.... the one with the compound, or the one with the longbow. i know which one i'd put my money on. ;)
and when people can't put arrows inside the foam vitals at fun shoots but do hunt with those weapons, they are a stain on bowhunters, not just traditional bowhunters. i don't know what trad shoots you have been to but most all of the guys i talk to at these shoots are talking hunting while shooting.... some of them even have a few broadheads in their quivers.
what i say may truly not hold water (though i have talked to literally thousands of trad hunters) but neither does your "knowing some compound hunters." that is kind of a small sample group isn't it? ;)
Post by: krout81 on December 30, 2010, 02:49:30 AM
Quote
and when people can't put arrows inside the foam vitals at fun shoots but do hunt with those weapons, they are a stain on bowhunters, not just traditional bowhunters. i don't know what trad shoots you have been to but most all of the guys i talk to at these shoots are talking hunting while shooting.... some of them even have a few broadheads in their quivers.I have been on a few shoots, I use compound bow with fingers and the arrow. Watched more guys than I can count miss targets with their pins, fancy bows, and releases because they only know the range if they have a range finder in their hand. Its about practice and the idots who don't pratice or have no business with a bow in their hand in the first place are gonna ruin it for everyone.
If there are so many traditional hunters that want their own special unit let them have one or part of one just like in Oregon. And 29 guys will go hunt it while I keep using my Compound and keep getting my deer and elk :-)
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2010, 05:30:31 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 30, 2010, 05:36:43 AM
Post by: argali on December 30, 2010, 09:04:37 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on December 30, 2010, 11:10:55 AM
I love SHOOTING archery tackle both traditional and compound. The simplicity of traditional, the form work, the fingers on the string etc.. I also love the power of a compound, the technology, the gadgets, the nock busting at 40+ yards, less lost arrows. But I LIVE to BOWHUNT! I currently carry a highly advanced bow comprised of aluminum, strings, cables, and cams, not " training wheels" in the woods and make no apologies for it. Im very profficient in the use of said equipment and strive to constantly become more so through diligent practice. May I ever change my mind and hunt with a stick and string SURE. And will devote the same amount of due diligence to being as proficient as possible with that weapon as well adopting certain limitations that come with it. But a special permit, or extended season has never and WILL never play a role in my decision to do so.
Every hunter needs to know his/her limitations self imposed or otherwise. How many guys would choose to hunt rifle over bow if the seasons were reversed? How about if the Rifle season was half as crowded? Muzzleloader same thing. I know several rifle guys who punch tags every year, They shoot alot. They scout alot. They hunt hard. They don't cry about how short the season is, or that the rut is over, cuz they get it done. But more and more I hear guys at the shop or run into guys in the woods saying stuff along the lines of " finally switchin over to archery, just to crowded during rifle". Or "man i've only had this new bow a month but im cuttin 12's at 50 yard most of the time, should be ready to go!" Then the same guy bragging about a 65 yard shot uphill that "spined" him while he was watching the hunter.
My point is given reasonable seasons and expectations with a given weapon guys who kill chit, will kill chit, or will pass up opportunitys to kill chit. Wannabes will always cry about how short the season was, how the other guys got a better season than us, we need more permits for OUR weapon of choice.
Twigs that deflect arrows dont care if the arrow is carbon, aluminum, or cedar. They dont care whether it was launched from a lovingly crafted bow, or one milled out of a block of alluminum by a machine; whether it was going 200 or 300 fps. Animals that jump your string causing poor hits or misses honestly could care less as well. If you think an alerted buck cant hear your whisper quiet 55 lb longbow, or wont be able to duck out of the way of your screaming 320 fps carbon shaft launched by your pretty month old baby, your decieving yourself. I agree with many posts here compounds are intrinsically easier to SHOOT, but HUNTING ethically and profficiently with them is far from the gimme many people make them out to be. And until the come up with a bow that breaks the sound barrier or legalize crossbows or locking mechanisms, the biggest drawbacks to hunting with them will remain the same.
If the tradional crowd would like more opportunities separate from the rest of the archery community, thats fine with me. But whats to keep folks who just want to join for sake of the extended season, or excellent draw odds from dilluting the tradition as a whole in a few years?
Post by: dirty24d on December 30, 2010, 12:33:39 PM
It will never happen the breaking down of archery season or area that much. Thats like asking for a 30-06 only area.
:yeah:
Post by: jstone on December 30, 2010, 01:29:53 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 30, 2010, 01:32:56 PM
Post by: gjbruny on December 30, 2010, 01:55:15 PM
There is Rifle and Muzzys and then there is Compound and Traditional :dunno:
that is my point exactly. combine the muzzy season with the rifle season and then give ALL of those hunters back the 7-10 day break between early and late gun season that never used to exist.
then give bowhunters back the 10-12 days we lost between the early and late seasons.
have two general weapon seasons with more days for each group and everyone wins.
another division in weapon choice only stands to reason that some hunters will have to give up a few more days in their season so that another small group can have the woods to ourselves.
Post by: huntnnw on December 30, 2010, 02:39:53 PM
Post by: Snapshot on December 30, 2010, 02:59:06 PM
gj, I like your style man, you bring up some great points. Kudos.
Yep, well delivered points.
If the tradional crowd would like more opportunities separate from the rest of the archery community, thats fine with me. But whats to keep folks who just want to join for sake of the extended season, or excellent draw odds from dilluting the tradition as a whole in a few years?
My answer to that question, BVB, would be to disallowing jumping around from one weapon to another. Make it a 'lifetime' choice that can't be reversed. Or a 'ten year' choice... Something with some teeth in it.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on December 30, 2010, 03:51:34 PM
If the tradional crowd would like more opportunities separate from the rest of the archery community, thats fine with me. But whats to keep folks who just want to join for sake of the extended season, or excellent draw odds from dilluting the tradition as a whole in a few years?
My answer to that question, BVB, would be to disallowing jumping around from one weapon to another. Make it a 'lifetime' choice that can't be reversed. Or a 'ten year' choice... Something with some teeth in it.
[/quote]
I hadn't thought of that. but I like it. There are several possible scenarios that COULD be used to control it. I was thinking along the lines of a profficiency test, that would be required if using special seasons or permits designed. Should already be in place for current archery season IMHO, but I like your idea as well snapshot, more straightforward for sure.
Post by: NoBark on December 30, 2010, 03:57:38 PM
Actually, no. Everyone doesn't win in this case because the Muzzy guys would have to deal with
all the modern guys at the same time. They wouldn't stand for it.
They have 'sacrificed' the opportunity to kill at 400 yards and deserve a longer season to reach goal-harvest.
Just like you and I have done by choosing archery.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 30, 2010, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 30, 2010, 04:21:34 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on December 30, 2010, 04:56:20 PM
This all sounds too complicated to me. I'd rather have the state go to permit only hunting for deer and elk. Then we wouldn't have to squabble over who gets the longest seasons and the best times. Just apply for the permit you want and if you get it, that's when and where you hunt. If you don't get it, you just don't hunt that year.
If this state went to permit only, with in a generation or two there wouldn't be hunting in this state anymore. How are you going to recruit younger generations into the tradition of hunting if you can only hunt once every three years, five years or how ever long it takes to draw. I for one am not going to wait around and hunt every few years, I will either hunt another state or give it up.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 30, 2010, 04:57:03 PM
This all sounds too complicated to me. I'd rather have the state go to permit only hunting for deer and elk. Then we wouldn't have to squabble over who gets the longest seasons and the best times. Just apply for the permit you want and if you get it, that's when and where you hunt. If you don't get it, you just don't hunt that year.
Definitely too complicated. I think most hunters are not happy with their game departments. Ohio has the best working relationship I have seen with their residents.
Post by: Ray on December 30, 2010, 04:58:10 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 30, 2010, 05:03:43 PM
Actually nothing is complicated because nothing has been proposed.
It's satisfying everybody that's too complicated. It's never going to happen. I know that's human nature so we can't really expect that result.
Post by: Ray on December 30, 2010, 05:06:00 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 30, 2010, 05:08:41 PM
gj, I like your style man, you bring up some great points and are obviously a very accomplished bowhunter. Kudos.
I love SHOOTING archery tackle both traditional and compound. The simplicity of traditional, the form work, the fingers on the string etc.. I also love the power of a compound, the technology, the gadgets, the nock busting at 40+ yards, less lost arrows. But I LIVE to BOWHUNT! I currently carry a highly advanced bow comprised of aluminum, strings, cables, and cams, not " training wheels" in the woods and make no apologies for it. Im very profficient in the use of said equipment and strive to constantly become more so through diligent practice. May I ever change my mind and hunt with a stick and string SURE. And will devote the same amount of due diligence to being as proficient as possible with that weapon as well adopting certain limitations that come with it. But a special permit, or extended season has never and WILL never play a role in my decision to do so.
Every hunter needs to know his/her limitations self imposed or otherwise. How many guys would choose to hunt rifle over bow if the seasons were reversed? How about if the Rifle season was half as crowded? Muzzleloader same thing. I know several rifle guys who punch tags every year, They shoot alot. They scout alot. They hunt hard. They don't cry about how short the season is, or that the rut is over, cuz they get it done. But more and more I hear guys at the shop or run into guys in the woods saying stuff along the lines of " finally switchin over to archery, just to crowded during rifle". Or "man i've only had this new bow a month but im cuttin 12's at 50 yard most of the time, should be ready to go!" Then the same guy bragging about a 65 yard shot uphill that "spined" him while he was watching the hunter.
My point is given reasonable seasons and expectations with a given weapon guys who kill chit, will kill chit, or will pass up opportunitys to kill chit. Wannabes will always cry about how short the season was, how the other guys got a better season than us, we need more permits for OUR weapon of choice.
Twigs that deflect arrows dont care if the arrow is carbon, aluminum, or cedar. They dont care whether it was launched from a lovingly crafted bow, or one milled out of a block of alluminum by a machine; whether it was going 200 or 300 fps. Animals that jump your string causing poor hits or misses honestly could care less as well. If you think an alerted buck cant hear your whisper quiet 55 lb longbow, or wont be able to duck out of the way of your screaming 320 fps carbon shaft launched by your pretty month old baby, your decieving yourself. I agree with many posts here compounds are intrinsically easier to SHOOT, but HUNTING ethically and profficiently with them is far from the gimme many people make them out to be. And until the come up with a bow that breaks the sound barrier or legalize crossbows or locking mechanisms, the biggest drawbacks to hunting with them will remain the same.
If the tradional crowd would like more opportunities separate from the rest of the archery community, thats fine with me. But whats to keep folks who just want to join for sake of the extended season, or excellent draw odds from dilluting the tradition as a whole in a few years?
Best post of this debate IMO!
Post by: Ironhead on January 02, 2011, 09:31:15 AM
Trad guys all ready have archery only hunts, what else are they looking for? Less people, longer seasons, later seasons Earlier seasons? I just want to know what the seperation is for?
Post by: JBar on January 02, 2011, 10:38:03 AM
DBHAWTHORNE you can't satisfy everyone.
You said it Ray! Can't satisfy everyone, so why would you try to satisfy the few at the expense of the majority. This seems to be a quest for personal satisfaction and not looking out for the group as a whole. If there was an outlined or clearly stated reason for the separation this topic might have merit. Until then :dunno:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 02, 2011, 11:22:40 AM
DBHAWTHORNE you can't satisfy everyone. I think the discussion here is just a wandering one but of no great seriousness yet. I also think that being hypercritical of it displays a sense of open yet veiled attack against peoples ideas. People are just having a discussion and to come in with every 3rd response and say it is doomed is kind of silly. There has been nothing proposed to the WDFW so there is nothing to declare complicated.
I don't mean the idea of having Trad only season is too complicated...just the idea that everyone would reach a consensus is not going to happen because it's too complicated. Obviously we don't need 100% to make this happen. We won't please everyone; thats a fact.
As long as it doesn't take away from anyone else I would fully support the Trad guys having a season after the general archery like was proposed in the initial post. It would maximize opportunities for that group and I think it would really have minimal impact on the herd. I was against the idea at first because I thought the suggestion was to "take away" from other user groups to give (arguably) the smallest user group a special season/area. (you set me straight on that assumption earlier..thanks for that)
I (unlike many others) don't oppose something simply for the fact that it doesn't appeal to my senses of what X type of hunting is really about. If it increases opportunity and doesn't harm the herd then I will always support it no matter what my personal views are of X method/weapons/season in relation to what the experience of hunting is all about.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 02, 2011, 11:29:26 AM
DBHAWTHORNE you can't satisfy everyone.
You said it Ray! Can't satisfy everyone, so why would you try to satisfy the few at the expense of the majority. This seems to be a quest for personal satisfaction and not looking out for the group as a whole. If there was an outlined or clearly stated reason for the separation this topic might have merit. Until then :dunno:
I was making this argument originally too. After rereading the original posting I was making assumptions on that. I would be interesting in seeing a actual proposal. There is a possibility they could have their season without impacting other user groups and with minimal impact to the herd. If it brings a sizable recruitment to Trad Archery there may have to be some adjustments made. To start with I have no idea how many Trad Archers we have in the state and their success rates. I think that is something that would need to be assessed first.
Post by: Wenatcheejay on January 02, 2011, 11:30:49 AM
You know come "Tag time," (Kinda like Tax time) I feel like there is little difference between the "special tags" and a canned hunt. You can go to a bird ranch and shoot released birds. (That is bad.) Or, you can go to a WDFW release site and hunt released birds. (That is good.) Go to a Ranch and Pay to hunt animals with low to no pressure is bad; Shoot an animal with a special tag on it's winter ground, that is good. The idea of DYI, Fair Chase, Ethics, Fairness, Tradtion, Canned Hunt, more and more I see little difference outside of, "opinion." :(
Post by: argali on January 02, 2011, 11:55:06 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 02, 2011, 12:23:20 PM
I do not believe in a separate unit for Traditional Archery, once upon a time they had Archery Only units, but that was when there were fewer Archers.
Now I only know of one Archery only unit (Long Island), and a portion of one near Enumclaw,
However, I study the pamphlet every year, and spend considerable time in the "Special Permit" section.
We now have separate permits for "Quality", "Antlered", "Antlerless", second, youth, firearm, disabled, over 65, master hunter, instructor, OIL, etc...
Why not have a few "Traditional" for Archery and Muzzleloaders that choose to use those weapons ?
It would have no impact on other users, eliminate those who applied from applying for other permits, and provide opportunity.
........................................
On another note, I would also be for mandatory NBEF classes, including "demonstrated" ability, much like the "AHE" program for Archery hunters, no matter what type they use.
Post by: Lowedog on January 02, 2011, 01:04:26 PM
Why not have a few "Traditional" for Archery and Muzzleloaders that choose to use those weapons ?
It would have no impact on other users, eliminate those who applied from applying for other permits, and provide opportunity.
In order to apply for those hunts would anyone who purchases an archery or muzzy tag be allowed to apply?
Post by: JBar on January 02, 2011, 01:09:21 PM
I do see how in could divide hunters as long as it didn't take away from other seasons and why would it have to ? I believe the impact would be minimal. It could limited longbow and recurves, wood arrows w/feathers, no sights, no release. It should be open to everyone. You would have to be willing to use traditional equipment.Problem! You'd have every Tom, Dick and Harry grabbing a stick and string going out doing something they did not become efficient at.
And as far as a Special permit Stik, if they add to one they would take from another. Not saying it's right or wrong or if it would even be necessary just saying that's how it would be done. WDFW is not going to ADD opportunity. Someone will lose out, might even be from the smallest user group as it would impact the least amount of people (muzzy) hypothetically of course.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 02, 2011, 02:49:39 PM
Not neccessarily, they constantly change the number of permits, add new ones, take others, at least it would not have the impact the "Rifle Rut" Elk permit had, Also, they offer permits based upon expected harvest, and 10-15, even 25 extra permits for ??? would have a success rate of what ?, and how many harvested animals ?, not any significant difference.I do see how in could divide hunters as long as it didn't take away from other seasons and why would it have to ? I believe the impact would be minimal. It could limited longbow and recurves, wood arrows w/feathers, no sights, no release. It should be open to everyone. You would have to be willing to use traditional equipment.Problem! You'd have every Tom, Dick and Harry grabbing a stick and string going out doing something they did not become efficient at.
And as far as a Special permit Stik, if they add to one they would take from another. Not saying it's right or wrong or if it would even be necessary just saying that's how it would be done. WDFW is not going to ADD opportunity. Someone will lose out, might even be from the smallest user group as it would impact the least amount of people (muzzy) hypothetically of course.
And every Tom, Dick, and Harry, that is not currently using Traditional equipment, is not going to quit applying for Peaches Ridge Any Bull, or Dayton, (whatever) to go for a "Traditional Permit", unless it was for the same area, with better draw odds, so they would just have to avoid the same area, or have only a couple permits
Post by: JBar on January 02, 2011, 03:41:58 PM
I see your point about the permits but from what Ive seen they take from one to give to another. This could come in the loss of regular season time or in permit levels. Take Entiat/Chiwawa for example, last year they gave more permits to Muzzy and took away from Archers. The few permits that were given did not equal what was taken away from archery.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 02, 2011, 06:51:33 PM
You're talking permits, argali was talking general hunt and that's what I was referring to with Tom, Dick and Harry.BUT, the EXPECTED HARVEST, or successful hunters remained the same,
I see your point about the permits but from what Ive seen they take from one to give to another. This could come in the loss of regular season time or in permit levels. Take Entiat/Chiwawa for example, last year they gave more permits to Muzzy and took away from Archers. The few permits that were given did not equal what was taken away from archery.
I doubt that unless it was a lot of permits, or a really long season, there would be any impact on other permits.
I would not support a separate general season, as I feel Archery is Archery, Muzzle-loader is Muzzle loader, and Modern Firearm is Modern Firearm, and support keeping the regulations as they are to preserve those seasons.
If they change the reg's to accept more modern conveniences to these weapons, then I would support separate seasons.
Post by: ScottyG on January 04, 2011, 01:34:25 PM
I know a number of guys who hunt with traditional equipment. They get their opportunities within the structure of the current bow seasons. Although I don't hunt with traditional gear, I get opportunities every year that could of been converted with a traditional bow if I had chosen that weapon and committed to becoming effective out to 20 yards.
I'm sure that success with traditional equipment comes with a great deal of personal satisfaction. I guess I don't see why that additional satisfaction can not be the driving force behind a persons choice to go traditional.
Scott
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 04, 2011, 01:51:26 PM
Traditional guys can already hunt some pretty great bow seasons, albeit with the other bow hunters who choose to hunt with less traditional archery equipment. I respect anyone who is committed enough to raise the bar on their skills to become proficient with traditional equipment but I don't feel that the choice is deserving of carving out a special season.When I chose to "Go Traditional" it was mostly out of a frustration with my Compound, and the fun I was having playing around with a recurve and longbow I had acquired.
I know a number of guys who hunt with traditional equipment. They get their opportunities within the structure of the current bow seasons. Although I don't hunt with traditional gear, I get opportunities every year that could of been converted with a traditional bow if I had chosen that weapon and committed to becoming effective out to 20 yards.
I'm sure that success with traditional equipment comes with a great deal of personal satisfaction. I guess I don't see why that additional satisfaction can not be the driving force behind a persons choice to go traditional.
Scott
Most of my shots at game were less than 20 yards anyhow.
I fell in love with the equipment, and do feel a sense of additional satisfaction in harvesting an animal with my recurve.
As I stated before, I would be against a separate season, but if there were special permits available, I would apply.
I know I have been applying for OIL tags since I started hunting 32 years ago, and if I were drawn next year, I would first try to fill the tag/permit with one of my recurves, and if that was not working out, I would try with my Fathers Muzzle-loader (side-lock percussion Zouave)
If the option was there to apply for a "Traditional" permit, That would be my choice, and open up a chance in whatever other one I would have applied for......
there are so many options now, why not one more.....
Post by: JBar on January 04, 2011, 06:24:19 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2011, 06:57:54 PM
Post by: tlbradford on January 04, 2011, 07:07:19 PM
I guess I am missing something and maybe someone can fill me in on Why!!! Why? Should there be a separate permit available or unit?? Why do the traditional guys feel there should be one? Is it because you feel you need to get closer to the game? Is it because they deserve it or feel unsafe with modern archers in the area? Why? So far I have not seen a valid reason or even an explanation of why it is felt needed. I'm not against the idea if there is a valid reason for it, I know validity will be different to everyone but so far.... :dunno: But give us something to ponder over.
It is just giving a user group an additional opportunity. I don't really see why you are trying to read more into it than that. That's it.
Nobody is trying to be "elitist". Nobody is trying to get you to do something different. It is harder to take an animal with traditional equipment. Can you deny that fact? So if it is a tougher pursuit, why shouldn't we ask for a few extra days to take our targeted animal? Why shouldn't we be allowed to ask for a seperate category for drawings?
If you really feel that strongly Jbar, why not lobby for muzzleloader to be rolled into modern firearm. Why not really simplify things? You haven't provided one single arguement as to why!! why you would be against it?
Post by: bobcat on January 04, 2011, 07:17:28 PM
Post by: huntnnw on January 04, 2011, 07:21:10 PM
Post by: tlbradford on January 04, 2011, 07:23:55 PM
I would like to see things simplified. After the fiasco last year when they completely changed our permit system, for no good reason, I would rather see less categories than what we have now. In my opinion they need to do away with the regular buck deer and bull elk categories, and also there is no need for separate categories for youth, seniors, and disabled hunters. I'm not saying do away with those permits, but just get rid of the separate categories.
I tend to agree that simpler is better, but if they are going to leave everything as complicated as it is, then I don't see a problem with traditional guys getting some seperate opportunities.
Post by: huntnnw on January 04, 2011, 07:31:09 PM
Post by: tlbradford on January 04, 2011, 08:32:46 PM
I will gurantee if something like this were to happen... it would be a far shorter season. It also would have to be late in the year after the general archery season. The trad guys would still rather have the 45 days or so we have for deer over here over a short trad only season. U cant hunt both remember, choose your tag state .. So how many would buy a trad only tag then? Say the season was 10 days long after the close of archery deer. Sorry but I wouldnt, horns falling off, rut completly gone.
After giving it some thought here is what I would propose on the season. You would have to declare traditional equipment, and have to use that throughout the season. Give them three days before archery opener and two days after. Having to declare traditional would keep most compound guys from picking up a longbow or recurve for the extra days. And those that want a few extra days would have to use it throughout the entire archery season.
Post by: Lowedog on January 04, 2011, 09:16:58 PM
I will gurantee if something like this were to happen... it would be a far shorter season. It also would have to be late in the year after the general archery season. The trad guys would still rather have the 45 days or so we have for deer over here over a short trad only season. U cant hunt both remember, choose your tag state .. So how many would buy a trad only tag then? Say the season was 10 days long after the close of archery deer. Sorry but I wouldnt, horns falling off, rut completly gone.
After giving it some thought here is what I would propose on the season. You would have to declare traditional equipment, and have to use that throughout the season. Give them three days before archery opener and two days after. Having to declare traditional would keep most compound guys from picking up a longbow or recurve for the extra days. And those that want a few extra days would have to use it throughout the entire archery season.
Not a bad idea, tough to enforce but not a bad idea at all.
Post by: tlbradford on January 04, 2011, 09:38:21 PM
Post by: Machias on January 04, 2011, 09:48:41 PM
Post by: Machias on January 04, 2011, 09:50:50 PM
I will gurantee if something like this were to happen... it would be a far shorter season. It also would have to be late in the year after the general archery season. The trad guys would still rather have the 45 days or so we have for deer over here over a short trad only season. U cant hunt both remember, choose your tag state .. So how many would buy a trad only tag then? Say the season was 10 days long after the close of archery deer. Sorry but I wouldnt, horns falling off, rut completly gone.
I would, but then horns are not a driving force in my bowhunting.
Post by: Lowedog on January 04, 2011, 09:51:30 PM
Plus to make everyone happy, OPEN all the GMUs and stop cramming us all in smaller and smaller areas.
:yeah:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 04, 2011, 09:52:43 PM
Here a good fix, traditional permit holders can only hunt with traditional gear, whatever the restrictions are decided upon. And they can hunt during modern, muzzy and bow season, however they must follow those seasons special rules, i.e. blaze orange. They can still only take one animal but can hunt all three seasons. The small number that would participate will not increase the pressure in an already crowded modern season and they won't bother the muzzy guys. Plus to make everyone happy, OPEN all the GMUs and stop cramming us all in smaller and smaller areas.:yeah:
Now that is something I could probably get onboard with. I was hoping someone would finally make a proposal. Thank you. Anybody have a rough idea how many trad archers we have in this state?
Post by: Snapshot on January 04, 2011, 11:04:17 PM
I'll have to read up on what Oregon does, and what TBW is proposing. I hadn't heard of anything until this thread. Good discussion, but I don't know why it got so heated.Correction needed here, folks. To date TBW has not proposed anything. Discussed? Yes. Proposed? No.
Keep the ideas coming. ;)
D.L. Sharp
TBW President
Post by: huntnnw on January 04, 2011, 11:18:50 PM
Post by: gjbruny on January 05, 2011, 12:57:55 AM
Here a good fix, traditional permit holders can only hunt with traditional gear, whatever the restrictions are decided upon. And they can hunt during modern, muzzy and bow season, however they must follow those seasons special rules, i.e. blaze orange. They can still only take one animal but can hunt all three seasons. The small number that would participate will not increase the pressure in an already crowded modern season and they won't bother the muzzy guys. Plus to make everyone happy, OPEN all the GMUs and stop cramming us all in smaller and smaller areas.
i still don't think it is a good idea...... but dang...... i almost could live with that one ( :)) even though i think it would fly like a lead balloon with the other hunters..... and then more and more guys would be converting to stickbows that have no business hunting with them. while i think a proficiency test should be put into effect for all archers (like in May or sometime well before two weeks out from the season LOL), something like this would demand a shooting test to deter guys that can't hit the broadside of a barn with a stickbow from wounding animals.
Post by: JBar on January 05, 2011, 04:53:30 AM
I guess I am missing something and maybe someone can fill me in on Why!!! Why? Should there be a separate permit available or unit?? Why do the traditional guys feel there should be one? Is it because you feel you need to get closer to the game? Is it because they deserve it or feel unsafe with modern archers in the area? Why? So far I have not seen a valid reason or even an explanation of why it is felt needed. I'm not against the idea if there is a valid reason for it, I know validity will be different to everyone but so far.... :dunno: But give us something to ponder over.
It is just giving a user group an additional opportunity. I don't really see why you are trying to read more into it than that. That's it.
Nobody is trying to be "elitist". Nobody is trying to get you to do something different. It is harder to take an animal with traditional equipment. Can you deny that fact? So if it is a tougher pursuit, why shouldn't we ask for a few extra days to take our targeted animal? Why shouldn't we be allowed to ask for a seperate category for drawings?
If you really feel that strongly Jbar, why not lobby for muzzleloader to be rolled into modern firearm. Why not really simplify things? You haven't provided one single arguement as to why!! why you would be against it?
TL apparently you did not read my post, I said nothing about anyone wanting to be an elitist, and I said I was not against it if there was a valid reason for it. Yes it is harder for the Trad guys but how does a Trad unit help in getting closer? More days afield then others how does that help you get closer? Be honest, how many opportunities or missed opportunities did you have last season to take an animal? I'll bet you had at least 3 close calls or you harvested one. 45 days isn't enough?
I don't think that any unit should be closed to one user group and not the others.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 05, 2011, 05:14:18 AM
Post by: Machias on January 05, 2011, 09:17:09 AM
Why MAchias? whats wrong with the 45 days we get already? u cant say too many hunters.
This is the only state I've ever hunted in where guys are always trying to LIMIT their time in the woods instead of trying to get more days in the woods. :chuckle: I understand we are NOT other states, but why not try and spend more time in the field. There are less and less of us each year (in fact in 2011 there will be one less, since I'm not hunting big game in WA). Look at alot of the other states, they have archery seasons that are MONTHS long, PLUS they are not choose your weapon states, so they can hunt more than one season. And pretty please don't throw out the we are the smallest western state with the largest population saying. Those figures may be true, but do not reflect the fact that our game department continues to cram fewer hunters into smaller areas therefore perpetuating the illusion of overcrowding. No 45 days is NOT enough time, IMNSHO. ;) Actually that equates to about 15 to 16 days hunting a year since most guys cannot go every day of the season. Nope call me greedy it's not enough time in the woods. Plus other states NEVER have these conversations at all, only in a Choose your weapon state do you have user groups fighting with each other over time in the woods. That single thing has divided us all more than any other. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on January 05, 2011, 09:29:58 AM
So you don't think we harvest enough deer? Is that it? I don't understand why we'd want more liberal seasons unless we wanted to increase the number of animals harvested. :dunno:
By the way, we are all free to spend as much time in the woods as we like. There doesn't have to be a hunting season open. It's called scouting.
Post by: Snapshot on January 05, 2011, 09:38:31 AM
..... and then more and more guys would be converting to stickbows that have no business hunting with them.
That is why it would need to be a binding commitment to use only traditional gear for, say, a ten year period, or better yet, for one's natural lifetime.
Post by: Machias on January 05, 2011, 09:56:54 AM
Machias,
So you don't think we harvest enough deer? Is that it? I don't understand why we'd want more liberal seasons unless we wanted to increase the number of animals harvested. :dunno:
By the way, we are all free to spend as much time in the woods as we like. There doesn't have to be a hunting season open. It's called scouting.
:) Honestly, you guys accept whatever you want, I'm taking my ball and playing in another state. It really isn't worth fighting over.....err disagreeing over.....err wrestling over....whatever you want to call it.
Post by: bobcat on January 05, 2011, 09:59:16 AM
Post by: NoBark on January 05, 2011, 11:11:54 AM
Any chance someone on here has an old hunting regs from just after the choose-your-weapon days?? It would be interesting to see how many units were open for each user group then and now. And, compared to before the cyw years.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on January 05, 2011, 11:15:24 AM
Although, I am against a separate season, I am a Trad hunter, and would like to apply for a permit, I don't really care one way or the other.
I already have plenty of other permits to apply for.
I just feel that if offered, a "Traditional" permit would reduce some of the applications for others, thereby making the draw odds better for those that are not "traditional"
I hunt alongside of non-traditional hunters and feel that I need no special consideration, overcrowding is not an issue with me, quite the opposite, my friends that still hunt the Manastash, are complaining that with the fewer hunters in the area, that you have to work harder to find Elk, they are not running from drainage to drainage anymore, they actually stay in one until somebody bumps them.
And with me no longer hunting there, they have to rely on different camps. :IBCOOL:
In the area I now hunt, I see nobody else off of the maintained roads, and after a mile or two of walking down those noisy,gravel covered roads, they usually turn around and walk back to their vehicles and go somewhere else.
No matter what type of weapon they are using, it will not affect how I hunt,
I just feel (and I have been accused of being an "Elitist") that a person who chooses to use Traditional equipment, makes that decision, not because of any special permits, seasons or because it is easier, but because he wants to use that weapon, and is willing to spend the extra time and effort using it requires.
Seasons are based upon the majority of users, and with archery, that means compound users, Archery permits are offered to allow increased opportunity, and therefore increased harvest, and taken into consideration when seasons are set.
With unlimited OTC tags, permits are the only effective means of ATTEMPTING to regulate harvest, issue more permits=increased harvest, issue less permits=lower harvest.
When they figure out how many permits to issue, they count on the average success rate of the user group, the average number of days to harvest, and allocated percentage for user group. That is why different numbers of permits are issued to different user groups.
When you figure the Statewide general season average for Archery is around 20-25% for deer, and 10% for Elk, while special permits run only slightly better for deer +/- 5%, but closer to +/-15% for Elk, yet almost DOUBLE for modern firearm, and a lesser, but close to 15-35% for Muzzleloaders are the permits really a direct comparison ?
When you take into consideration that an Archery Hunter, no matter what he is using, still has a lower success rate, general and permit, and further consider a smaller user group (Traditional), then the only real reason NOT to offer a special permit, would be to prevent further division amongst the user group (Archery), as it would have no real impact on anybody that did not apply.
Post by: JBar on January 05, 2011, 04:20:14 PM
Why MAchias? whats wrong with the 45 days we get already? u cant say too many hunters.
This is the only state I've ever hunted in where guys are always trying to LIMIT their time in the woods instead of trying to get more days in the woods. :chuckle: I understand we are NOT other states, but why not try and spend more time in the field. Nope call me greedy it's not enough time in the woods. Plus other states NEVER have these conversations at all, only in a Choose your weapon state do you have user groups fighting with each other over time in the woods. That single thing has divided us all more than any other. :twocents:
I'm with Michias! You make a good honest point that we all want our time in the field and would welcome more if we could get it. Unfortunately we are a choose your weapon state so we end up fighting for whatever time we can steal from each other. This is why we should stick together as "archers" and fight to keep what we have left rather than divide us even further . We lost the last week of September deer to the rifle quality elk permit. If we divide into a Trad / compound more time could be lost.
The original topic is for a Traditional unit, again I don't think any units should be open or closed to one user group and not another. All units that are open to hunting should be open all user groups. This would equal better hunter distribution.
If you really want to continue the division thing why don't we have a women/youth archery season? On average these archers also have to (should) get closer based on lower poundage bows. Where does it end?
Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders :twocents:
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on January 05, 2011, 07:42:03 PM
Post by: Snapshot on January 11, 2011, 08:16:23 PM
Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders :twocents:
As an traditional archery hunter I never have and never will buy a multi-season tag raffle ticket. No other method of hunting interests me and I don't think I'm alone in my thinking, although sometimes I wonder. ;) The whole point of a lifetime traditional license (or whatever it would be called) would be that the hunter foresakes all other methods of hunting all big game in the state in exchange for a broader range of time afield. To quote a now defunct archery organization; "An opportunity, not an advantage."
Post by: rooselk on January 17, 2011, 12:23:46 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 17, 2011, 12:51:13 PM
Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders :twocents:
As an traditional archery hunter I never have and never will buy a multi-season tag raffle ticket. No other method of hunting interests me and I don't think I'm alone in my thinking, although sometimes I wonder. ;) The whole point of a lifetime traditional license (or whatever it would be called) would be that the hunter foresakes all other methods of hunting all big game in the state in exchange for a broader range of time afield. To quote a now defunct archery organization; "An opportunity, not an advantage."
Correct me if wrong, but if you are a traditional archery hunter with an archery only tag then you can only hunt the archery season. If you were to get the multi-season you could hunt the additional days of the general season using the method of choice--in this case traditional archery. The only season you would have to use something else would be for muzzleloader. So you would have to determine the value of those additional days especially considering you would have to wear orange and deal with the other 80/67 percent of deer/elk hunters.
Post by: JBar on January 19, 2011, 05:57:22 PM
Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders :twocents:
As an traditional archery hunter I never have and never will buy a multi-season tag raffle ticket. No other method of hunting interests me and I don't think I'm alone in my thinking, although sometimes I wonder. ;) The whole point of a lifetime traditional license (or whatever it would be called) would be that the hunter foresakes all other methods of hunting all big game in the state in exchange for a broader range of time afield. To quote a now defunct archery organization; "An opportunity, not an advantage."
I understand what you're saying snapshot but what I am saying is the other way around. If you create another user group the guys that get drawn for that multi season permit would have the right to hunt that unit as well if they choose. A regular modern firearm hunter could pick up the old recurve in the closet he shot when he was twelve and hunt the traditonal unit / season with the multi season.
Post by: Snapshot on January 20, 2011, 09:48:13 AM
If you create another user group the guys that get drawn for that multi season permit would have the right to hunt that unit as well if they choose.Adding a user group isn't of any interest to me. If a traditional unit were established with a criteria of "traditional only for life (or ten years or whatever) for all big game" an exclusion would have to be made for the multi-tag holders because they wouldn't qualify.
Post by: fethrduster on March 05, 2011, 06:18:07 AM
Post by: sakoshooter on March 05, 2011, 09:40:04 PM
I think we should have a scoped rifle deer season and an open sighted rifle deer season. Elk too.
No, just kiddin.
Post by: jstone on March 07, 2011, 01:00:45 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on March 10, 2011, 06:39:26 AM
Post by: Snapshot on March 11, 2011, 12:00:10 PM
We are losing more and more opportunities (season length, special permits) each year.......Because we have become more and more efficient at taking big game.
Post by: hughjorgan on March 11, 2011, 04:07:05 PM
We are losing more and more opportunities (season length, special permits) each year.......Because we have become more and more efficient at taking big game.
Or could it be that there are just more archers afield than 20 and 30 years ago, therefore more archery hunters mean more animals harvested?
Post by: jstone on March 12, 2011, 10:42:39 AM
Post by: PA BEN on March 12, 2011, 03:44:57 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on March 13, 2011, 03:44:13 PM
We are losing more and more opportunities (season length, special permits) each year.......Because we have become more and more efficient at taking big game.
Do you really think that is the reason? My humble opinion is a horrible economy, a state budget that needs to be cut, a game department that has been force to cut back has them scrambling to find MONEY. More opportunities for the biggest user group leads to more permits purchased and more MONEY. Did I say MONEY?
Post by: Snapshot on March 14, 2011, 06:09:36 PM
Do you really think that is the reason?The explanation we were given for the shortening of our elk season was that we bowhunters were killing a disproportionate amount of mature bulls. The reason we almost lost the late Swakane general deer season was the same; we took too many deer out of there in the previous three-years.
In my opinion if we continue seeking ways to make hunting easier we will continue to suffer cuts in our season lengths. And the only conceivable way to reverse the trend would be to set stricter limits on ourselves; to stop looking for greater and greater advantages. :twocents:
Post by: jstone on March 14, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
Post by: Lowedog on March 15, 2011, 06:15:50 AM
Do you really think that is the reason?The explanation we were given for the shortening of our elk season was that we bowhunters were killing a disproportionate amount of mature bulls. The reason we almost lost the late Swakane general deer season was the same; we took too many deer out of there in the previous three-years.
In my opinion if we continue seeking ways to make hunting easier we will continue to suffer cuts in our season lengths. And the only conceivable way to reverse the trend would be to set stricter limits on ourselves; to stop looking for greater and greater advantages. :twocents:
Can't comment much on the elk much but have you been in the Swakane unit in the last 5 years during late archery? You would think every archery hunter in this state is there for that hunt. So yeah, the reasoning may be that archers are taking too many animals on that hunt but I would lay 10-1 that it is because of the amount of hunters over tech.
I was in favor of that hunt going permit only. I don't think that any user group should be able to hunt the rut as a general season.
Post by: jstone on March 15, 2011, 09:39:30 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on March 15, 2011, 02:21:18 PM
"5c. DIRECTOR’S REPORT:
Director Anderson reviewed significant Department issues and activities, including:
• Ideas for generating revenue"
You tell me they don't have revenue on their minds.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 15, 2011, 06:38:30 PM
Post by: Snapshot on March 15, 2011, 07:43:16 PM
I hunt with both my stick and my Hoyt. If you had trad-only units, that would necessarily mean taking units out of use for general archery hunters and there are already enough restrictions on archery as it is, and too many units requiring a draw. I'd be opposed to it.I would oppose it too if it meant that units would taken away from anyone or any weapon. But there are units that are not open to hunting now that maybe could be if the equipment were restricted. Patch & ball, stickbows, open iron sights... Put more challenge in it so that the game animal has a better chance of winning the contest of wit versus instinct. It would give the hunter more recreational time, fewer animals would be taken and the state could require that a special "traditional" stamp be purchased; that would be a win-win scenario all around.