Post by: wolfbait on January 07, 2011, 05:16:14 PM
Yellowstone is Dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYxGJB5dJxI#ws)
Washington will end up being another Yellowstone with WDFW refusing to confirm known wolf packs. Those of you who are seeing wolves in places that you have never seen them before can thank WDFW.
The full 2 hour documentary comes out next month.
Post by: ICEMAN on January 07, 2011, 06:21:46 PM
Post by: grundy53 on January 07, 2011, 06:35:53 PM
Post by: grundy53 on January 07, 2011, 06:37:37 PM
Can somebody recap this video..... Us morons who still have dialup can't load it...
kind of hard to recap, but i will try. They basically talk about the damage to the yellowstone elk herd from the wolves and the USFW's fraud that was perpitrated on us. It goes into some detail about it.
Post by: rb2506 on January 07, 2011, 06:54:03 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on January 07, 2011, 06:56:26 PM
Post by: BeeMan on January 07, 2011, 07:00:42 PM
Post by: BeeMan on January 07, 2011, 07:03:38 PM
Post by: grundy53 on January 07, 2011, 07:05:41 PM
I was blown away when they pointed out that yellowstone has gone from 20-25 thousand head of elk down to below 5000 since wolves were reintroduced!! We need to wake people up!!
And that's with no hunting pressure on the elk.... well not from humans.
Post by: grundy53 on January 07, 2011, 07:06:18 PM
Thank you grundy.
No problem.
Post by: jstone on January 07, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
Post by: JCClement on January 07, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
Post by: Rockholm66 on January 07, 2011, 08:46:20 PM
Yellowstone is Dead
Yellowstone is Dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYxGJB5dJxI#ws)
Washington will end up being another Yellowstone with WDFW refusing to confirm known wolf packs. Those of you who are seeing wolves in places that you have never seen them before can thank WDFW.
The full 2 hour documentary comes out next month.
Thank you all for watching my short clip of the astonishing devastation occurring in Montana, and Idaho. We need all Washington hunters to wake up before it's too late.
Post by: Gobble Gobble on January 07, 2011, 10:12:35 PM
Post by: huntergreg on January 07, 2011, 10:14:21 PM
Great Video. What channel will the full documentary be on, if any?
:yeah:
Post by: Rockholm66 on January 07, 2011, 11:45:19 PM
Great Video. What channel will the full documentary be on, if any?
:yeah:
When I finish up the copyright, and finishing touches. I will have a press release for more information. I am working on several media outlets, and I am planning to have a premier In Coeur d' Alene, Idaho.
Post by: huntnnw on January 08, 2011, 12:03:31 AM
Post by: huntnnw on January 08, 2011, 12:05:24 AM
Post by: NWBREW on January 08, 2011, 12:07:56 AM
Post by: GWP on January 08, 2011, 12:10:59 AM
Post by: huntnnw on January 08, 2011, 12:23:47 AM
Post by: Humptulips on January 08, 2011, 12:34:51 AM
Not trashing people... nothing will get done here unless people take it in their own hands. Locals who live out in the middle of no where already do. There have been wolves in Canada for a long time, why dont u think they havent made it down to here?? People have alot to do with that up along the border, they are not welcome.
Pardon me but wolves are working down across the Canadian border in every state west of the Great Lakes.
To top that off I doubt a few lawbreakers are going to keep the wolf population down. That hasn't worked yet and in fact legal hunting probably won't either but it would help.
Post by: GWP on January 08, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
I still say, if there are no wolves in the area, then go ahead and shoot that great big coyote! Must be what it is!
Post by: huntnnw on January 08, 2011, 01:02:39 AM
Post by: PolarBear on January 08, 2011, 01:11:19 AM
Post by: Rockholm66 on January 08, 2011, 10:55:56 AM
Yellowstone is Dead
Yellowstone is Dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYxGJB5dJxI#ws)
Washington will end up being another Yellowstone with WDFW refusing to confirm known wolf packs. Those of you who are seeing wolves in places that you have never seen them before can thank WDFW.
The full 2 hour documentary comes out next month.
I believe most people have woken up to what is going on, and I recognize that some are still behind on the issue. It won't be long, and all of us will work together to stop the decimation of our elk, moose, and deer. Thank you all for the great comments.
Post by: throttlejocky20 on January 08, 2011, 11:59:19 AM
Post by: alecvg on January 08, 2011, 08:09:18 PM
My opinion and its just my :twocents: is if there was originally wolfs in an area try to bring them back. I'm ok with this but if you are gong to bring them back there has to be a way to manage the number of animal. They cant just say here's the wolfs and you cant hunt them, whats above a wolf in the food chain. We have the same issue here with cats. If there is no efficient way to manage the number of animals its going to turn a lot of honest people into poachers. That's a fact just look and the comments made so far and I have to agree with them.
I would be okay with a managed population if it was a NATIVE species. But these are a non-native species, designed to take down moose and caribou, which makes killing the smaller deer and elk nothing. If they were timber wolves, I would be okay with a managed population.
Post by: throttlejocky20 on January 09, 2011, 08:44:58 AM
I guess i forgot to add that, native species on land where they use to rome, and let us hunt them .My opinion and its just my :twocents: is if there was originally wolfs in an area try to bring them back. I'm ok with this but if you are gong to bring them back there has to be a way to manage the number of animal. They cant just say here's the wolfs and you cant hunt them, whats above a wolf in the food chain. We have the same issue here with cats. If there is no efficient way to manage the number of animals its going to turn a lot of honest people into poachers. That's a fact just look and the comments made so far and I have to agree with them.
I would be okay with a managed population if it was a NATIVE species. But these are a non-native species, designed to take down moose and caribou, which makes killing the smaller deer and elk nothing. If they were timber wolves, I would be okay with a managed population.
Post by: luvtohnt on January 09, 2011, 09:15:37 AM
I think the guys that believe this is a ploy to take our guns away or to run cattle producers off of public land need to take their foil hats off and join the real world.
I know I have haggled wolfbait in the past but I love the fact he works so hard to inform people about the wolves and I enjoy reading everything he posts, but the wolves are here to stay and the SSS talk makes hunters look bad. We need to unite under the thought that they are here to stay and we want practical, functional management. :twocents:
Brandon
Post by: Alan K on January 09, 2011, 09:19:01 AM
Post by: 400out on January 09, 2011, 10:53:09 AM
Post by: BeeMan on January 09, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
Washington never had timber wolves and never will Canis Lupus irremotus is the historical species and is the one that was released in Yellowstone. Also the species that is slowly recolonizing Washington.
I think the guys that believe this is a ploy to take our guns away or to run cattle producers off of public land need to take their foil hats off and join the real world.
I know I have haggled wolfbait in the past but I love the fact he works so hard to inform people about the wolves and I enjoy reading everything he posts, but the wolves are here to stay and the SSS talk makes hunters look bad. We need to unite under the thought that they are here to stay and we want practical, functional management. :twocents:
Brandon
Expecting a good wolf management plan in Washington is like expecting that PETA would do a good job managing the WDFW!....Aint gonna happen! :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on January 09, 2011, 12:21:23 PM
Washington never had timber wolves and never will Canis Lupus irremotus is the historical species and is the one that was released in Yellowstone. Also the species that is slowly recolonizing Washington.
I think the guys that believe this is a ploy to take our guns away or to run cattle producers off of public land need to take their foil hats off and join the real world.
I know I have haggled wolfbait in the past but I love the fact he works so hard to inform people about the wolves and I enjoy reading everything he posts, but the wolves are here to stay and the SSS talk makes hunters look bad. We need to unite under the thought that they are here to stay and we want practical, functional management. :twocents:
Brandon
>Washington never had timber wolves and never will Canis Lupus irremotus is the historical species and is the one that was released in Yellowstone. Also the species that is slowly recolonizing Washington.)
Nice try Brandon, but it isn't going to fly. In the past some folks on W-H tried to say the wolves that were released in the Methow were not the same wolves as Idaho, that little lie was also exposed. Scott Rockholm is going to post some info that will show what happened when the wolves were brought down. In the past I had seen the wolves we use to have and they were not the big Canadian wolves. The fact that we never had any problems with our native wolves should be enough to prove your statement incorrect. In the early 1990's WDFW said they had 6 confirmed wolf packs in the Cascades, what happen to these wolves? The money for their wolf studies went to the illegal Canadian wolf introduction. What happen to the documented wolves of the 1980's and 1990's? Why would WDFW throw away our native wolves and release a non native wolf that never belonged in the lower 48? How will Washington look being mostly Wilderness or Parks? Where will people hunt then? What happens with the states that have been dealing with these wolves since the beginning will decide what happens in WA. The more people spread this information of the lies that have followed the wolf introduction from the beginning the better chances we have of informing people as to what has happened and what is going to happen in WA. WDFW can not lie and say they had no clue when they released these wolves in WA, they are as guilty as Ed Bangs and his crew of crooks.
In Washington, Feds Opt For Wolf Introduction Over Recovery
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/ (http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/)
Rare Wolf Pups To Be Isolated, Photographed
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900603&slug=1075265 (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900603&slug=1075265)
Post by: luvtohnt on January 09, 2011, 06:44:18 PM
The wolves found in Canada are Northern Rocky Mountain wolves the same type released in Idaho. Also known as Canis lupus irremotus. There is no such thing as a Canadian wolf. DNA taken from wolves killed in the rockies decades ago prove that irremotus was in fact the species found in America. The only difference is the prey base will cause the ssp to be big or small.
Brandon
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on January 09, 2011, 07:33:18 PM
I don't doubt that it will take wolves taking down some people before anything gets done. Look at what happened to hound hunting. Decisions made by people that have no clue about what they just voted to do.
I still say, if there are no wolves in the area, then go ahead and shoot that great big coyote! Must be what it is!
Our own our responsible for losing rights like hound hunting too..it's not just the uneducated or ill informed urbanites ...its those who don't use it or think it's not hunting who help give our rights away.
Post by: greenhead_killer on January 09, 2011, 07:50:46 PM
Post by: Rockholm66 on January 09, 2011, 07:51:42 PM
Please point me in the direction of the supposed uncovering of the release of said Canadian wolves, so I can be informed. :)
The wolves found in Canada are Northern Rocky Mountain wolves the same type released in Idaho. Also known as Canis lupus irremotus. There is no such thing as a Canadian wolf. DNA taken from wolves killed in the rockies decades ago prove that irremotus was in fact the species found in America. The only difference is the prey base will cause the ssp to be big or small.
Brandon
I understand you are trying to understand wolf introduction? I have researched this wolf introduction for many years now, and I know for a fact, the wolf introduced to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and now Washington, and Oregon is not the resident wolf that inhabited our area. This is not a myth, like the writings in Wiki, or at the Defenders of Wildlife. I am working to complete my documentary, and when I am finished, I will provide the links to you. Most of the links are gone, and the evidence of the "Name Change" is also gone. I have the actual documents, and I will show them in my film. If you need anything else, please let me know. One resource you may want to look up is Young and Goldman. The information about the name change is on the USFWS web site.Do not get your information from Wiki, it is entirely false.
Post by: NWBREW on January 09, 2011, 11:22:22 PM
Post by: sakoshooter on January 10, 2011, 02:28:56 AM
Post by: Hornseeker on January 10, 2011, 07:48:17 AM
Just to keep this in perspective...I am NOT friend of wolf...just dont like to hear bullcrap get spread.
SSS when ever possible.... it can make a little difference.... but it wont get rid of the wolves.
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 08:30:16 AM
I'm curious why "canadian wolves" that hunt moose and caribou would be anymore effective predators than "American" wolves that hunted moose and elk....and bison...and.......
Just to keep this in perspective...I am NOT friend of wolf...just dont like to hear bullcrap get spread.
SSS when ever possible.... it can make a little difference.... but it wont get rid of the wolves.
Hornseeker, the wolves that were brought down from Alberta are the biggest wolves made, they evolved chasing game that is much faster and larger in a far harsher climate and a land that is spread out. These wolves run in packs of up to 40. Our native wolves that no longer exist ran in packs up to six and were not as big a wolf. When Ed Bangs brought these wolves down he said they were looking for a wolf that could really kill elk, and they found just what they wanted in Alberta. When they brought these wolves down in order to introduce these wolves they had to change the species list, which will be explained in Scott's documentary.
Post by: saylean on January 10, 2011, 08:53:13 AM
Post by: jbeaumont21 on January 10, 2011, 09:01:58 AM
Post by: SpotandStalk on January 10, 2011, 09:17:10 AM
The above link to the State of Wyoming's petition to delist the gray wolf covers the use of C. l. occidentalis (a larger subspecies of Canada) for re-introduction quite well. The whole document is a great read but since this particular part is of discussion, start on page 17.
The link below is also a great source of reference material.
http://rliv.com/pic/Smithsonian%20Study.pdf (http://rliv.com/pic/Smithsonian%20Study.pdf)
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 09:40:54 AM
Post by: Special T on January 10, 2011, 01:27:45 PM
Post by: tlbradford on January 10, 2011, 04:09:56 PM
Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.
Post by: Machias on January 10, 2011, 04:39:02 PM
Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.
Hmmm now there's a introduction I might get behind. :)
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhnZvan_uT8#ws)
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 04:44:50 PM
luvtohunt. DNA is a direct match from the native species that were here, and the reintroduced wolves. However, sub-species evolved based on geography. This is the difference in the two strains of wolves. One is larger, suited to extreme temperatures, and the taking of larger prey. Native species were about 1/2 the size.That is a perfect example Tlbradford, and still the USFWS had to cheat to get these wolves into this country.
Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.
Post by: luvtohnt on January 10, 2011, 08:04:25 PM
I am still trying to get ahold of a copy of the Young and Goldman book. Found one on ebay but I don't want to pay 16.00 for a book from 1944!!
Brandon
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 08:09:37 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=147884918595655&set=o.129344620416761&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=147884918595655&set=o.129344620416761&theater)
Post by: tlbradford on January 10, 2011, 08:32:14 PM
tlbradford, I do understand that but in order to comply with the ESA where else could the wolves have been brought from?
I am still trying to get ahold of a copy of the Young and Goldman book. Found one on ebay but I don't want to pay 16.00 for a book from 1944!!
Brandon
I can't answer that question. I don't know where there was a pack similar to what we had here, if any.
Post by: wolfbait on January 10, 2011, 08:49:00 PM
Post by: Special T on January 10, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
I have a big problem with government because they tend to use opposing logic whenever it fits their needs... If we use opposing logic they will bust us so hard we cry for mercy...
Post by: Machias on January 10, 2011, 10:39:04 PM
Post by: TeacherMan on January 10, 2011, 10:55:38 PM
for those of you debating the size of the wolves in Washington to the wolves that have been reintroduced from BC. From what I have been able to find in my studies and teachings they do have the same DNA, so they are the same species but just because something has the same DNA doesn't make it identical. One rule I like to teach and talk about in my ecology classes in Bergmann's Rule, this in general just states that the farther north you go the larger animals of the same species or similar species become. As stated earlier think of whitetail deer in Texas and in Alberta, they are very different in size. Up until about 10 years ago scientists use to think there was over 30 sub species of whitetail deer but with modern science and gentics we have found that is incorrect and have been able to narrow that down to just a couple and those are so close its even in question. Another cool example that I have just become aware of is snowshoe hares, when I lived in WA a 3 pound bunny was common, this year on my trapline in south central Alaska they have been averaging around 5-6 pounds. I have been told the snowshoes on the north slope average 8-10 pounds and 12 pounders are common!!! Talk about prehistoric! So I guess with that in conclusion to get rid of the wolves in WA we just need to introduce North Slope snowshoe and they will counterbalance the wolf population but still wipe out the deer herds because they will eat the hillsides void of buck brush. :chuckle:
Post by: TeacherMan on January 10, 2011, 10:57:49 PM
I watch this documentary and I have a couple of thoughts. As a hunter I get it, I watch this video and I'm outraged and heatbroken and fearful for the future. But hopefully I'm not the target audience, because I'm already on board. I believe this documentary and I realize I only saw parts of it, but it will do very little to the people we need to convince the most and that is a big part of the nonhunting public. It won't do a thing for the wolf zealots, but they are a minority, but I'm afraid it will do very little to sway public opinion. Maybe the whole documentary will do a better job of that. For the minions out there to say Yellowstone is dead, while your showing a herd of elk doesn't help. Have you seen the documentaries done for the Animal Planet, they show coyote after coyote being shot while the commentators go on about wolves being killed. The public is ignorant and seeing a herd of elk, no matter how small will make folks go, what you mean, I see elk. What are those hunters doing crying about a few elk. I'm not trying to be critical, just not sure this, at least what I just watched, will convince very many folks who are not already on board with us.
those are very good points :tup: I totally agree
Post by: wolfbait on January 11, 2011, 02:55:02 AM
-- International Wolf Magazine, Winter 2010, 12/29/2010
Recent rulings by courts in both the Upper Midwest and the Northern Rockies regarding wolf recovery in those areas have resulted in widespread public concern. The rulings in both cases placed the wolf back on the Endangered Species List but were based on legal technicalities, not biological realities. The biological realities are wolf populations in most wolf recovery states are from 2 to 10 times greater than government recovery plans require for delisting. Wolf numbers reached official recovery levels in the Upper Midwest in 1995 and in the Northern Rockies by 2002. The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service began attempting to delist wolves in the Midwest in 2006 and in the Northern Rockies in 2008. In each case, lawsuits resulted in overturning the delisting and mandated wolves be placed back on the Endangered Species List.
International Wolf sought opinions about the court rulings and the resulting public backlash from four noted wolf biologists who have been directly involved with wolf recovery for many years: Dr. L. David Mech, a senior scientist with the U. S. Geological Survey and an adjunct professor at the University of Minnesota, who has studied wolves and wolf management for over 50 years; Dr. Rolf O. Peterson, professor at Michigan Technological University, who has studied wolves for 40 years; Dr. Robert R. Ream, a retired professor at the University of Montana, who has studied wolves for 15 years; and Mr. Jim Hammill, retired wildlife biologist with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, who has studied wolves and wolf management for 20 years.
IW: How long have you been involved with wolf recovery and what is your involvement?
Mech: Since the early 1970s, I have been a member of wolf recovery teams for the Midwest, Northern Rockies, and Mexican wolf populations and have helped develop these recovery plans.
Peterson: I have chaired the wolf recovery team for the Midwest population since 1996.
Ream: As a University of Montana professor, I studied wolves when they began naturally recovering in Montana, and I was a member of the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Team from 1974 to 1988. I now chair the Commission on Fish, Wildlife and Parks for Montana.
Hammill: I was a wolf biologist for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources while wolves recovered in Michigan and Wisconsin and have been a member of the recovery team for wolves in the Midwest since 1996.
IW: What are your concerns about the recent court rulings on wolf delisting?
Mech: I fear general public attitudes about wolves are reverting toward the negative. Since the early 1970s when wolves were the symbols of endangered species, public attitudes tended to be sympathetic toward wolves. Now attitudes are beginning to shift more toward the negative. This change was recently documented in an analysis of media pieces about wolves.
Peterson: People tend to tolerate wolves more when they know conflicts with wolves can be managed, particularly depredations on livestock and pets. The on-again/off-again delisting of wolves and the consequent alternating state responsibility for wolf management has greatly confused and frustrated the public. Options for reducing conflict are particularly limited in Wisconsin and Michigan, where wolves cannot be legally killed following depredation even by federal agents.
Hammill: In Michigan, we have seen a strong negative change in public acceptance of wolves. Once wolves enjoyed very strong support, even among hunters. However, since technicalities in the Endangered Species Act have been used to keep wolves from rightfully being delisted, support has eroded, and now wolves are being killed illegally across their range here. Michigan just experienced its first decline in wolf numbers since wolves reappeared in 1989.
Ream: Much of the public in the West has also lost respect for the Endangered Species Act. Ranchers, landowners, guides and hunters are fed up with everyone associated with wolf restoration, recovery and management. They tolerated, and many supported, wolf recovery for years as the federal government changed its recovery requirements from 10 packs per state to 15 packs each and then flip-flopped on whether the Wyoming wolf management plan was adequate or not. Now the latest court ruling relisting wolves was the last straw, and illegal killing of wolves will prevail. Folks are so upset that senators and representatives in our area are preparing legislation to change the Endangered Species Act and to delist the wolf legislatively. That could start a whole trend to unravel the law.
IW: We think it’s important for our readers to keep abreast of the back-lash described here by four veterans of wolf recovery and the threat it represents to wolves and the Endangered Species Act. Because events are moving quickly, we urge every-one to stay informed on the subject by regularly checking the News and Events section on our Web site, www.wolf.org (http://www.wolf.org).
Wolf numbers reached official recovery levels in the Upper Midwest in 1995 and in the Northern Rockies by 2002.
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/live_news_detail.asp?id=5896 (http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/live_news_detail.asp?id=5896)
Post by: Machias on January 11, 2011, 07:40:04 AM
Post by: Special T on January 11, 2011, 07:46:45 AM
Post by: AKBowman on February 12, 2011, 06:16:58 PM
I dont think we hunters need to wake up, we all know whats going on.. far above our heads and with the government
That is the wrong attitude. We (sportsmen) are what make the WDFW. Without the millions of dollars of funds we provide there would be ni WDFW.
I say we flex our muscles and strike against the WDFW and hunt elsewhere. I for one would love to see them start listing to what the people have to say.
If the WDFW intorduces wolves to Willapa Hills I will never spend another dime on hunting or fishing in this state for the rest of my life.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on February 14, 2011, 04:32:36 PM
I dont think we hunters need to wake up, we all know whats going on.. far above our heads and with the government
That is the wrong attitude. We (sportsmen) are what make the WDFW. Without the millions of dollars of funds we provide there would be ni WDFW.
I say we flex our muscles and strike against the WDFW and hunt elsewhere. I for one would love to see them start listing to what the people have to say.
If the WDFW intorduces wolves to Willapa Hills I will never spend another dime on hunting or fishing in this state for the rest of my life.
I think the hunters are awake. I think the "people" need to wake up.
Post by: Wenatcheejay on February 18, 2011, 01:01:29 PM
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2008/03/24/wolf-proof-bus-stop-shelters-go-up-in-new-mexico-community/ (http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2008/03/24/wolf-proof-bus-stop-shelters-go-up-in-new-mexico-community/)
http://www.allbusiness.com/education-training/school-facilities-transportation-school/13736312-1.html (http://www.allbusiness.com/education-training/school-facilities-transportation-school/13736312-1.html)