Post by: jgregg on March 10, 2011, 07:01:44 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 10, 2011, 07:12:21 PM
Post by: HardCorpsHuntr on March 10, 2011, 07:21:23 PM
http://www.knightarmco.com/guns.html (http://www.knightarmco.com/guns.html)
Post by: thinkingman on March 10, 2011, 07:23:06 PM
The 16" functions well if you need to aim quickly and the two-stage trigger makes precision shooting a dream.
Absolutely functions perfectly.
Chambered in Wylde so it shoots .223 and .556.
Just add optics.....
Post by: Suncrest Sniper on March 10, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
SS
Post by: DeerHarvester on March 10, 2011, 07:41:47 PM
Post by: CementFinisher on March 10, 2011, 07:55:13 PM
Post by: MP123 on March 10, 2011, 08:14:09 PM
next is do you want direct impingement (original design true AR) or piston driven (AK style). these are the ways in which the bolt is moved.
So as an AR newbie I'm wondering which is better?
Post by: Big10gauge on March 10, 2011, 08:36:53 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 10, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
Post by: Mossy on March 10, 2011, 10:33:50 PM
I believe the best AR out there is the one you build yourself that meets your specs, needs, and most important your wallet. Just build one from ground up an you'll be addicted.
SS
X2. How many of them are out there now?
Post by: dannysdaddy on March 10, 2011, 10:38:03 PM
Post by: CementFinisher on March 10, 2011, 11:36:46 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 10, 2011, 11:55:47 PM
I have both, the the piston is supposed to be cleaner but I haven't noticed it to be. IMO the piston rod is one more part to have to worry about even though I haven't had any issues with it. The gas blowback uses rings on the bolt and the piston needs a spring behind the bolt. The piston driven usually has some form of adjustment to allow you to adjust the amount of gas to drive the piston.
My thoughts as well. One more thing to go wrong for a beginner. Get the standard blow back system. There is lots of good ones. Play with as many as you can. I would look into the bushmaster/Remington r-15's.
Post by: Suncrest Sniper on March 11, 2011, 06:09:35 AM
If you need help simply ask,
SS
Post by: CAMPMEAT on March 11, 2011, 07:00:45 AM
Post by: MP123 on March 11, 2011, 07:36:55 AM
Post by: vmkeith on March 11, 2011, 11:31:41 AM
Post by: Elk-aholic on March 11, 2011, 11:40:24 AM
Post by: Suncrest Sniper on March 11, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
SS
Post by: BlackRidge on March 11, 2011, 12:12:29 PM
Are there compatability issues with the various uppers/lowers? I guess I'm wondering if some manufacturers are more flexible and compatable if I want to build my own. I'd hate to get the wrong lower and find that I didn't have much choice about which upper/barrel to use.
There may be a slight difference between uppers/lowers from differing companies, but it will only show in the fit/finish, i.e the seam where the upper & lower come together. Other than that, one of the universal things about the AR platform is the ease of swapping out parts w/ new and or different components
Post by: KillBilly on March 11, 2011, 12:18:55 PM
Here is a link if you are interested http://www.tacticalinc.com/t15bdxtrade-patented-receiver-with-stbatrade-installed-p-1163.html (http://www.tacticalinc.com/t15bdxtrade-patented-receiver-with-stbatrade-installed-p-1163.html)
Post by: grundy53 on March 11, 2011, 12:42:22 PM
Post by: BlackRidge on March 11, 2011, 12:51:34 PM
I'm glad I saw this thread. I'm very un educated when it comes to black guns. I just started to get interested in building one. They seem fun and building one seems like it would be a fullfilling and fun project. I have 2 questions for you more experianced folks out there. 1) If I buy all of the parts un assembled is there any part which you need to ship to a liscensed FFL? 2) I would be most interested in a bigger bored gun. So what would you guys recomend? .458 Slocom, .450 Bushmaster, .325wsm? Reasons?
The only part that would require an FFL would be the lower receiver, wether it be complete or incomplete (i.e missing parts kit). According to the ATF, it is the firearm. Upper receivers can be purchased and shipped freely
As far as big bore cals go, the 450 is come common among AR's, though not very common in the grande scheme of things. But more common than the other cal's listed. It's the most crucial thing to decide before buying IMO, just because the cost of ammo itself plays a fairly large role. That and its intended use.
If you'l simply be doing some big game hunting and won't be going through many rounds, any of the cals you listed will suffice. But if you'l be using it often and don't plan to reload, I'd go with a readily available caliber that won't break your bank to shoot
The other thing to look at would be the ballistics of each and figure out which round best suits your needs. Most 450/458 aren't too accurate out past 200yrds from what I hear
I have friends who have WSM builds and absolutely love them (25 & 300wssm/ossm)
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Post by: grundy53 on March 11, 2011, 12:56:32 PM
Post by: KillBilly on March 11, 2011, 01:58:29 PM
Post by: FALFire on March 11, 2011, 07:50:21 PM
Stay away from the Bush/Rem models. Bushmaster is considered the low level brand and the Rem's which made by bush have had issues. Also If memory serves me Bushy is no longer.
The web if full of tutorials.
SS
Huh, bad stuff? Gee the Remington R15 I was shooting two weeks ago grouped 5 rounds under 3 inches at 300 yards and never missed a beat. Out of the 200 or so Bushmasters we had on the Sheriffs dept before I retired never seemed to be a problem, maybe we just got the good ones and everyone else gets the crap ones. I have personally used several configurations of Bushmasters and they all functioned perfectly except for the 308 version. Must be the luck of the draw I suppose. Bushmaster is still very much in business and doing quite well.
http://www.bushmaster.com/index.asp (http://www.bushmaster.com/index.asp)
Maybe you are referring to them being purchased by Cerberus which now owns many of the nations firearms companies and many other companies as well they also happened to invest big dollars into the company for new toys. :IBCOOL:
But I could be wrong :dunno:
However, many of the problems associated with any AR is bad magazines, I prefer Magpul and standard GI issue 20 round mags. The original gas impingement system is a proven and reliable gas system but it does make things like the bolt group dirty and the carbon does build up in the bolt carrier over time. A good cleaning on occasion will keep it running like new. The newer piston driven upper is newer but not necessarily better, some people like bling over function, to each their own . A good setup for all practical purposes is a 20" barrel with standard rifle length gas port location and your choice of stock. I prefer a floating handguard and standard A2 stock but it certainly is not mandatory. My Armalite 20" A2 is a shooting fool and it has yet to be fitted with a float tube. I would highly recommend an A3 or A4 (for some) flat top upper, you will be happier when you mount your favorite optic on top and retain reasonably good cheek weld.
A good trigger is a must have, the stock triggers suck, no.....they REALLY SUCK. There is a guy known as Bill Springfield that has a good following for those that wish to use a massaged stock trigger, he can be found on the Internet search engines. There are several good triggers out there that are sure to please most any AR user, Timney, Chip McCormick, Jewel, Rock River Arms, etc. Then you can get into two stage triggers which are pretty nice if that works for you.
As far as receivers go, both upper and lowers can be purchased as a set as they should be if you are buying the billet stuff which is very cool and the prices seem to be getting better as the competition grows. However a standard forged upper and lower will see many thousands of rounds and abuse before it should fail. Purchasing a one brand set will prevent any mismatched colors and ill fit. Many of the uppers are all made from only a few casting companies around the country and many are machined by the same companies with another brand or moniker roll marked into it.
You may also hear the Olympic Arms are junk and can break, well it used to be years ago, when they were SGW they used a non forged cast upper and lower receiver and many did in fact break. Oly Arms has for several years now, provided all AR's from the PLinker model on up with forged recvr's and only under extreme cases can one fail or break as will any other forged cast recvr.
Barrels can be purchased from a bazillion sources these days and many are good, some are real good, but like anything you will get what you pay for in most cases and barrels are no different. There are also dozens of calibers to choose from, the AR is the most hot roddable firearm on the planet with support all over the world. The sky is the limit but for a working gun or a hunting rifle you really only need a few good parts, mainly the barrel and bolt group and functioning recvr's, the rest is just stuff.
Post by: jgregg on March 11, 2011, 08:19:03 PM
Post by: halflife65 on March 11, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
I want to use it primarily for plinking but also wanted something that was good around the house (just in case.) I've been struggling with barrel length, etc.
RRA is a company that I'm interested in. Does anyone know much about the Wylde chambering (I think someone mentioned it above)? Wondering if it was good (seems to be). I also heard White Oak barrels are supposed to be pretty good. What's the deal with the chrome lined barrels? Just a durability thing for someone who shoots a lot?
My neighbor has had 2 Olys and both functioned fine for him (still has one that's closer to the A4 with a 16 inch barrel). I'd heard not good things about them but he's had no trouble at all.
Kind of the problem that I've had with all this stuff is paralysis by analysis. There are so many options that I can't keep track of them all. For instance, do I want a flash suppressor? What's the difference between an A2 flash suppressor and an A2 Long flash suppressor? Do I want a barrel with a 1:8 twist? 1:9? Aaah. My head. Of course, that's why I want to build one rather than just buy one. It'll force me to find out what all this stuff is rather than just buy something and shoot it. I just like knowing the background and options because it's interesting.
Post by: micdude on March 11, 2011, 09:00:07 PM
Here is there sight http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/)
Read this about BCM http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf (http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf)
Post by: micdude on March 11, 2011, 09:05:40 PM
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS
This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT
Post by: Schwag173 on March 11, 2011, 09:13:37 PM
I want an AR that I can use for coyotes but would be a gun I would choose first in an "End of the World" Scenario as well. Reliablity is key, as is accuracy. I wouldn't be against the idea of building my own if I learned how to do it.
I kind of built my own but went high-end: Larue Tactical Stealth upper group http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=100, (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=100,) Colt Model 6920 lower group (Gunbroker.com), JP Enterprises Trigger group http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPFC-2, (http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPFC-2,) and a few more toys to accessorize. What did I get for spending the extra money? Check out the attached image. And this is a 16" barrel, folks. :)
Post by: FALFire on March 11, 2011, 09:32:22 PM
if you are just looking for a plinker and home protection then most anything will do, I would recommend a 16" barrel with a 4 position collapsible stock and flat top A3 upper. A 9 twist will do just fine the 8 would be better if you wanted to shoot the 75 grain bullets but for plinking and your needs a 9 twist is plenty adequate.
However, an 18" mid length barrel port barrel may give you a little smoother functioning rifle with just a tad better reliability among ammo brands. It all has to do with dwell timing in the barrel for the gases etc.
A Wild Chamber is a chamber that is cut to allow the safe use of both commercial 223 and military surplus 5.56 ammo. It is just a slight adjustment in the chamber lead/throat area for pressure and by some, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. To those of us that have discharged thousands of rounds in a standard 5.56 cut chamber it's really a moot point. But then again there are those out there :rolleyes:
If you plan on using it for hunting coyotes or ground squirrels then a 20" barrel may be a better setup. It will help get the sound just a little farther away and the balance can be better depending on stock configuration and your physical build.
Flash hiders are not necessary but a muzzle brake can be a benefit to reduce muzzle lift and you seeing your hits on target, they also tend to make follow up shots more accurate. The big downside of a brake is the noise, they can make your ears bleed :chuckle:
White Oak makes some really nice stuff, their barrels are reported to give very good accuracy.
Chrome lined barrels are required for the military and not really needed for a good shooter/plinker. Accuracy can be somewhat sacrificed with chrome lining as it depends on the chroming performed I prefer, the non chrome lined barrels but I do have a couple that are chrome lined but it is what it is.
Post by: CastleRocker on March 11, 2011, 09:39:12 PM
If you don't want to build one, buy an upper from a custom builder, or if you are on a tight budget, look at CMMG's "bargin bin". I purchased one from there that was cheaper than I could build it, and it shot very very well.
Remember, the inherent accuracy of an AR is in the upper. So pick components that work well together. All the lower does for accuracy is house that fine feeling trigger group that allows you to shoot just a little better.
Also, one word of advice; once you buy your first one, you will likely be hooked! I think it's the most addicting, and easily modified firearm platform made.
From best to not-so-best;
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS
This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT
With all due respect, whoever made that list for you needs to actually have some trigger time behind some of those. The order would definately change. Also, in regards to a fully automatic carrier group...don't even think it in this state, unless you want to live for quite a while in Walla-walla, in a concrete house and have a big room mate named Bubba, or Leroy, or something like that.
Post by: calawahsteelie on March 11, 2011, 10:00:56 PM
Post by: micdude on March 11, 2011, 10:02:36 PM
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642 (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642)
As to full auto BCG are/are not legal I would read this from the ATF:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=492867 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=492867)
Heavier weight makes it cycle better
Post by: CastleRocker on March 11, 2011, 10:13:29 PM
Just a side note if you are considering building one yourself; Black Hole Weaponry is turning out some of the most accurate barrels out there right now, and best of all, they are located right in the middle of our state...Moses Hole (aka Moses Lake).
Also, the Olympic Arms Stainles Ultra Match barrels are getting great reviews. The guy that built my custom upper in 25 WSSM (Mike Milli at DTech), uses either Oly, or Shilen match barrels, and told me on the phone that Oly barrels are just as good or better, without the name and price. Mine is a one hole rifle when I don't drink too much coffee.
In my opinion, everyone should have an upper in 5.56 just because. Then start looking at all the "other" calibers! I'm collecting parts for a 20 Practical (not Tactical) build now.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 11, 2011, 10:25:03 PM
Post by: micdude on March 11, 2011, 10:30:36 PM
Post by: FALFire on March 12, 2011, 06:55:11 AM
As far as the 6.8SPC to replace you Remington 700.......what caliber is your 700 and why the 6.8SPC when there are superior calibers available? The 6.8 is fine in shorter barreled rifles in which it was designed for but the 6mm options are superior in every way. I've been reloading and shooting the 6.8 for a few years now and it is simply not nearly as good beyond 300 yards as some of those guys would like you to believe. The ammo is much to expensive for it to be a plinker when compared to the 223/5.56 round and it's no were near as accurate as the 6mm wildcat offerings. There have been times when brass has been difficult to get, maybe now that Silver State Armory has relocated in Packwood Wa. and up to full manufacturing speed, that brass and ammo may not be hard to get.
If you reload, the options are darn near endless for available calibers for the AR15 platform and then you can step into the AR10 308 based platform for even more options. Mike Milli from Dedicated Technologies is a great guy and very, very knowledgeable about how to properly build a rifle, he has been doing it most of his life. You can find him on Predator Masters website.
Post by: thinkingman on March 12, 2011, 09:30:38 AM
Build you own! I firmly believe that if a person can read a book or maybe even follow along on a DVD, and has the mechanical ability to lace and tie one's work boots, you can build your own. There is even directions on proper assembly on the web. Look at the "everything AR" thread (sticky) on Predator Masters Forum.I would agree with this post.
If you don't want to build one, buy an upper from a custom builder, or if you are on a tight budget, look at CMMG's "bargin bin". I purchased one from there that was cheaper than I could build it, and it shot very very well.
Remember, the inherent accuracy of an AR is in the upper. So pick components that work well together. All the lower does for accuracy is house that fine feeling trigger group that allows you to shoot just a little better.
Also, one word of advice; once you buy your first one, you will likely be hooked! I think it's the most addicting, and easily modified firearm platform made.From best to not-so-best;
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS
This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT
With all due respect, whoever made that list for you needs to actually have some trigger time behind some of those. The order would definately change. Also, in regards to a fully automatic carrier group...don't even think it in this state, unless you want to live for quite a while in Walla-walla, in a concrete house and have a big room mate named Bubba, or Leroy, or something like that.
Buy a RockRiver complete upper, they were including a chromed bolt carrier as a free upgrade...and build your own lower.
A member on here connected me with Pete at Legaltransfers....great deal on an excellent upper.
Micdude...thanks for trying but that's a fail.
Post by: micdude on March 12, 2011, 03:11:48 PM
Written by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch
...M16 bolt carriers are not designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun and are not any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled. Further, an M16 bolt carrier is not a firearm as defined in the GCA or a machinegun as defined in the NFA. An M16 bolt carrier is simply a machinegun part and as such its domestic sale and possession is unregulated under the Federal firearms laws. It is not unlawful to utilize a M16 machinegun bolt carrier in a semiautomatic AR15 type rifle.
It is legal. What you need an NFA stamp for is the Auto/Burst Fire FCG.
The difference between the different types of BCGs is the design and weight. FA (Full auto) vs. M16 vs. SA (Semi auto) differ in design (slightly) and weight. What makes FAs so reliable is that they are heavier, allowing for a more consistent cycling motion (from my understanding)... hopefully leading to less FTF/FTEs.
Post by: mebco09 on March 12, 2011, 05:27:19 PM
It is legal. What you need an NFA stamp for is the Auto/Burst Fire FCG.
In addition to the stamp, you also need to live in a state that allows FA firearms. Washington is not one of them. Also, if you happen to live in such a state, don't put your "stamped" Auto/Burst FCG into a modified AR-15. That is manufacturing a FA firearm. Big no-no.
As far as the BCG, there are a lot of rifles out there that have parts that work in both semi-auto and full-auto applications (I am thinking m1 carbine specifically). These parts are identical in both applications.
I wouldn't use any FA parts in any rifle I own. It MIGHT be legal, but it also might cost you your rifle (for a while) if a LEO decides to get technical on you. The ATF rules are deliberately vague, I wouldn't be surprised that there is a ruling out there that contradicts the above referenced letter. You get to hire a lawyer to get your property back (if it wasn't destroyed first). Just my :twocents:
Post by: FC on March 12, 2011, 06:11:15 PM
Don't just guzzle that tired old kool-aid, spend your money on barrel +bolt, bolt carrier and trigger if you are building an AR. Many of the better barrels include a bolt. As has been already said by FALfire, all the other parts are pretty much just stuff you hang on it.
As for the heavier bolt carrier? The reason it has more mass is so that it will hold together under sustained full auto firing with a 0% failure rate.
Post by: FALFire on March 12, 2011, 06:45:38 PM
I'm not saying RRA's are bad guns at all but rather they are considered commercial grade and not top tear guns.
Written by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch
...M16 bolt carriers are not designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun and are not any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled. Further, an M16 bolt carrier is not a firearm as defined in the GCA or a machinegun as defined in the NFA. An M16 bolt carrier is simply a machinegun part and as such its domestic sale and possession is unregulated under the Federal firearms laws. It is not unlawful to utilize a M16 machinegun bolt carrier in a semiautomatic AR15 type rifle.
It is legal. What you need an NFA stamp for is the Auto/Burst Fire FCG.
The difference between the different types of BCGs is the design and weight. FA (Full auto) vs. M16 vs. SA (Semi auto) differ in design (slightly) and weight. What makes FAs so reliable is that they are heavier, allowing for a more consistent cycling motion (from my understanding)... hopefully leading to less FTF/FTEs.
Okay that is what BATF states but you are in Washington State and the law here states...read the link.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.220 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.220)
Now what you get into here is the possibility of having your firearm confiscated and held until BATF can determine if your firearm meets State law requirements. I can tell you that if it is confiscated it will be sent to the State Firearms Laboratory and tested for ballistics match and not treated very well. Maybe you will get it back and maybe you will not. I would say, keep known full auto parts away from your firearm and you should not have a problem. But it's your gun and your decision and your wallet.
Now for the reality of things, chances are if you choose to use any FA part no one would ever know but as they say in Iraq.....Sheithappins
Post by: Schwag173 on March 12, 2011, 07:19:05 PM
*sigh* that list you are touting was just a price organized price list....It had nothing to do with quality.
Don't just guzzle that tired old kool-aid, spend your money on barrel +bolt, bolt carrier and trigger if you are building an AR. Many of the better barrels include a bolt.
FC is spot-on! Anyone who has attended a Colt Armorer's Course will tell you that you can't just aimlessly throw a bunch of mixed parts together and expect primo functioning and accuracy out of an AR platform. The best bet is to buy the upper group (assembled) from an outfit that knows what they're doing. I'll admit to being a Larue snob.
Post by: jaymark6655 on March 12, 2011, 11:58:25 PM
From best to not-so-best;Anyone else notice this list is the exact same as www.m4carbine.com (http://www.m4carbine.com) or whatevers list of most expensive to cheapest? My rifle basically is DPMS (minus stripped lower), 16" barrel with 1:9 twist. It shoots better and seems more accurate than my dad's Colt with 1:7 match rifle, so I really doubt I would trust this list.
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS
This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT
Post by: huntandjeep on March 13, 2011, 07:31:42 AM
Post by: FC on March 13, 2011, 04:08:46 PM
FC is spot-on! Anyone who has attended a Colt Armorer's Course will tell you that you can't just aimlessly throw a bunch of mixed parts together and expect primo functioning and accuracy out of an AR platform.
I think maybe you misunderstood me here, I've never attended a Colt Armorer's course but I did attend one put on by the Army :P The point is that you actually can do just that! If you have a pile of in spec parts you can assemble rifles from them that will shoot with military minimum or better accuracy and typical reliability.
When you get into the spendy barrel and bolt combos you are talking about match rifles, capable of 1/4 MOA or better, nice triggers just make the rifle easier to use and be able to consistently hit with.
Post by: FALFire on March 13, 2011, 06:47:41 PM
The heart of the AR is the barrel period. Everything else other than a good trigger is just stuff. All of my builds have come from parts ordered on the web or purchased at gun shows by reputable dealers and every single one of the with the exclusion of one barrel has functioned flawlessly. The barrel I'm talking about is from Black Hole Weaponry, I truly believe I just got one that is out of spec somewhere because I have not been able to get it to shoot reliably under 3 inch groups at 100 yards with over 2 dozen different bullet weights and powder charges, 3 different high end scopes and 2 different shooters all from a lead sled or sand bags. All of my builds have easily done 1 inch or better but this thing is just got a kink in it somewhere. Even my last 308 build does 1 inch groups at 200 yards and seriously whacks steel at 600 yards with a 20 inch tube. My 22-250 Savage with a 26" Shilen barrel shoots under 4 inch groups at 600 yards with ease.
Post by: halflife65 on March 13, 2011, 07:52:27 PM
Halflife,
if you are just looking for a plinker and home protection then most anything will do, I would recommend a 16" barrel with a 4 position collapsible stock and flat top A3 upper. A 9 twist will do just fine the 8 would be better if you wanted to shoot the 75 grain bullets but for plinking and your needs a 9 twist is plenty adequate.
However, an 18" mid length barrel port barrel may give you a little smoother functioning rifle with just a tad better reliability among ammo brands. It all has to do with dwell timing in the barrel for the gases etc.
A Wild Chamber is a chamber that is cut to allow the safe use of both commercial 223 and military surplus 5.56 ammo. It is just a slight adjustment in the chamber lead/throat area for pressure and by some, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. To those of us that have discharged thousands of rounds in a standard 5.56 cut chamber it's really a moot point. But then again there are those out there :rolleyes:
If you plan on using it for hunting coyotes or ground squirrels then a 20" barrel may be a better setup. It will help get the sound just a little farther away and the balance can be better depending on stock configuration and your physical build.
Flash hiders are not necessary but a muzzle brake can be a benefit to reduce muzzle lift and you seeing your hits on target, they also tend to make follow up shots more accurate. The big downside of a brake is the noise, they can make your ears bleed :chuckle:
White Oak makes some really nice stuff, their barrels are reported to give very good accuracy.
Chrome lined barrels are required for the military and not really needed for a good shooter/plinker. Accuracy can be somewhat sacrificed with chrome lining as it depends on the chroming performed I prefer, the non chrome lined barrels but I do have a couple that are chrome lined but it is what it is.
Thanks FALFire! The flash hider was just something that seemed like a simple thing and then I realized there were 1,000,000 options on it - a muzzle brake is definitely something that would be more useful. I have a brake on my .300 though and it feels like you go into a different dimension of time and space if you shoot it without hearing protection.
Thanks for all the advice on barrel length and the thing about the chrome lined barrel. It's great that I can post a few questions and knowledgable people such as yourself can get me pointed in the right direction - I really appreciate it.
Post by: FALFire on March 13, 2011, 08:11:50 PM
I have an 18" barreled 6.8SPC with a PRI brake on it and felt recoil is like a 22LR rifle, it's a real pleasure to shoot with ear protection but it will make your teeth and eyes bleed without the muffs.
Post by: Suncrest Sniper on March 13, 2011, 08:29:02 PM
SS
Post by: Schwag173 on March 13, 2011, 08:29:17 PM
FC is spot-on! Anyone who has attended a Colt Armorer's Course will tell you that you can't just aimlessly throw a bunch of mixed parts together and expect primo functioning and accuracy out of an AR platform.
I've never attended a Colt Armorer's course but I did attend one put on by the Army :P The point is that you actually can do just that! If you have a pile of in spec parts you can assemble rifles from them that will shoot with military minimum or better accuracy and typical reliability.
When you get into the spendy barrel and bolt combos you are talking about match rifles, capable of 1/4 MOA or better, nice triggers just make the rifle easier to use and be able to consistently hit with.
Oh dear, I can hear Ken Elmore choking on his beer as we type ...
Post by: FC on March 13, 2011, 08:36:15 PM
Oh dear, I can hear Ken Elmore choking on his beer as we type ...
Why? Do you think he is worried that too many people will realize this?
Post by: Schwag173 on March 13, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
Post by: FC on March 13, 2011, 08:58:25 PM
Ever hear the Johnny Cash song about the Cadillac he built himself from the parts he 'borrowed' from his assembly-line job? :chuckle:
Sure I've heard it but I don't see how it relates to an AR build? Are you having a hard time with the idea that you can throw all the parts necessary to build 1000 rifles in a swimming pool and by just grabbing the first parts that come to hand you can build 1000 military grade, effective rifles?
Post by: Schwag173 on March 13, 2011, 09:23:05 PM
Post by: machine on March 13, 2011, 09:32:10 PM
Post by: FC on March 13, 2011, 09:35:33 PM
At the Colt factory, sure.
Huh?
Post by: FALFire on March 13, 2011, 09:39:16 PM
The AR is not a precision piece of artwork it is simply a group of components that meet milspec (whatever that really is) dimensions. You can take a crappy barrel, put it on a LMT or WOA upper recvr and it will still shoot bad. All the upper and lower recvr's do is hold the parts together. Accuracy is all about barrel/bolt and trigger quality.
Guys like Mike Milli take extra time to machine the barrel chamber square and properly align the upper for barrel extension and bolt fit and if memory serves me correct he also beds the barrel into the upper. The trick he has learned is to do everything the same every time. His uppers will shoot on any lower and they do very, very well because Mike will tell you the secret to an accurate AR rifle is the barrel and barrel/bolt fit. All of the other stuff is just parts.
Post by: Schwag173 on March 14, 2011, 01:54:45 AM
[/quote]
FC; this is kind of what I was talking about. Throwing parts together is fine, but it limits what the final product can give you in the accuracy arena. Another issue is reliability: beware the source(s) of said parts. A lot of crap was given a gray finish and called 'milspec AR-15 parts' in past years. I believe things have gotten much better in the past decade, but again, buyer beware. That's why I said (simply) I'd rely on Colt parts. You get what you pay for; if it's cheap there is a reason.
Post by: FC on March 14, 2011, 04:47:34 AM
FWIW Mike Milli from what I can see uses exclusively free float tubes and squares the upper receiver in a lathe, I think most if not all custom builders do both.
If you think that you have to have a $1500+ rifle for it to be worth owning you probably don't want to spend much time around any guys that spent $500-600, if you do you might want to keep some kleenex handy!
If you really want to hurt your feelings, shoot groups every 500 rounds for 10,000 and then count average group size and number of failures, if you are a good shot you might even beat that guy with his $500 rifle by 1/2 MOA but you also might not.
Post by: thinkingman on March 14, 2011, 09:34:01 AM
The Colt koolaid is too strong.
The 'experts' on M4.net and AR15.com have everyone convinced mil-spec is the holy grail....when in fact it's rattle loose and sloppy, but functional in severe conditions.
Just let them keep buying Colt and that will keep the prices of the excellent AR's down for the rest of us.
In re OP...do you 2moa milspec or a 1/2moa precision shooter?
Porcupine spec-ops like a video game or a serious gun?
There are two ideas at work here.
Post by: BlackRidge on March 14, 2011, 11:11:18 AM
As with anything else, the more quality parts/time that goes into a project/rifle, the better it will perform. Mil-spec is the minimum for these parts to work together, but theres more that goes into it if you want them to work very effectively. (i.e A Ford car will run, but not outperform a BMW...)
General mil-spec parts from any random supplier/mfg will, as FC put it, get you decent results. But parts made by the same supplier, usually with the same quality materials, quality controls and production procedures will almost always outshoot those which are not. Some companies just chose to go that extra mile, and their products/sales/prices/rep show it
Daniel Defense, Noveske, LMT/etc didn't get to where they were from making your basic mil-spec parts... :twocents:
Post by: FC on March 14, 2011, 11:29:33 AM
Daniel Defense, Noveske, LMT/etc didn't get to where they were from making your basic mil-spec parts... :twocents:
You're right! They absolutely got there by brewing up the kool-aid you just poured yourself a glass of!
Mil spec has a lot more to it than general shape, it defines dimensions with margins within a few thousandths, hardness within margins and finish within margins.
Post by: BlackRidge on March 14, 2011, 11:51:09 AM
My DSC and Oly are like night and day, the DS doing a marginal job, and the Oly doing much better. I always attributed the differences to how each co. aqcuires/makes parts, the fit, price and the general time taken to complete each. Could be wrong as always though, I'm sure theres far more that goes into it
Post by: Straight Shooter on March 14, 2011, 12:30:14 PM
Post by: epq21 on March 14, 2011, 12:51:28 PM
Post by: FC on March 14, 2011, 12:55:44 PM
I'm not too up to date on this delicious kool-aid you guys keep referring to, ..but now I'm thirsty.. :P
It's purple but I hear it tastes like strawberries :P
Seriously, what I mean by that is that some (most) of these companies are banking on people believing that you will get a much different product by spending 3x as much or more than you would for an "average" rifle and then touting all of the reasons why on tv shows etc.
Straight Shooter, I have a DPMS upper as well and it flat shoots!
Post by: thinkingman on March 14, 2011, 05:59:05 PM
I have.
Rattle like a can of bolts, run with a handfull of sand in it.
You'll be lucky to hit the broadside of a barn while standing inside of it, but it will put rounds downrange under dire circumstances.
Same idea.
IE..the same part has to fit in any one of a million other parts.
That's Mil-spec
Post by: FC on March 14, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Ever shot a milspec Colt 1911 from 'the good old days'?
No but I shot a milspec M16 a fair bit, it was a worn out POS but still a very accurate shooter that never stopped even when I had the barrel glowing. It was still accurate enough for me to qualify "expert" afterwards too, sounds like your 45 needed to be rebuilt a while before you shot it or there was something very wrong with it.
Post by: vmkeith on March 14, 2011, 08:41:41 PM
From best to not-so-best;
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS
This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT
I'm not sure where this list came from, but I damn sure wouldn't rate BCM, Colt, or Daniel Defense above Noveske. Me thinks somebody was sampling the wacky tobacky.
Post by: Dirty Mike on March 14, 2011, 09:09:10 PM
Post by: mountainman on March 14, 2011, 10:36:12 PM
Post by: BlackRidge on March 15, 2011, 09:49:33 AM
Black Mountain froh High mountain in Wenatchee, wa!
Never heard of em', but I'm lovin the name ;)
Post by: Cylvertip on March 15, 2011, 12:39:29 PM
Grant from G&R Tactical Gives Advice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc-NHwdRmx8#)
Post by: scoutsniper17 on March 15, 2011, 03:18:55 PM
Post by: halflife65 on March 15, 2011, 04:02:52 PM
Pretty funny, Cylvertip.
Post by: Cylvertip on March 15, 2011, 04:56:45 PM
Every question and answer on a gun forum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY#)
Post by: huntandjeep on March 15, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Post by: Antlershed on March 16, 2011, 02:48:02 PM