I want an AR...Which is best?

[FC]

At the Colt factory, sure. 

Huh?

[FALFire]

Many of the parts out there on a great deal of the completes and assembled uppers are put together with parts purchased from where ever they can get the best deals and they pass them onto the consumer. Only when you get a new custom gun from a reputable company do you get parts usually from one or two manufactures. Parts for AR's are made all over the world, specialty parts are a little more controlled than that. Oly Arms makes their own barrels and cuts their own railed float tubes, they machine their own uppers and lowers from forged castings. DPMS claims they do all machine work on their barrels. Colt used to get their uppers and lowers from LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) Stag I believe is similar to Oly Arms they make most of the important stuff and purchase all of the standard parts used to make up a complete weapon.

The AR is not a precision piece of artwork it is simply a group of components that meet milspec (whatever that really is) dimensions. You can take a crappy barrel, put it on a LMT or WOA upper recvr and it will still shoot bad. All the upper and lower recvr's do is hold the parts together. Accuracy is all about barrel/bolt and trigger quality.

Guys like Mike Milli take extra time to machine the barrel chamber square and properly align the upper for barrel extension and bolt fit and if memory serves me correct he also beds the barrel into the upper. The trick he has learned is to do everything the same every time. His uppers will shoot on any lower and they do very, very well because Mike will tell you the secret to an accurate AR rifle is the barrel and barrel/bolt fit.  All of the other stuff is just parts.

[Schwag173]

[quote Guys like Mike Milli take extra time to machine the barrel chamber square and properly align the upper for barrel extension and bolt fit and if memory serves me correct he also beds the barrel into the upper. The trick he has learned is to do everything the same every time. His uppers will shoot on any lower and they do very, very well because Mike will tell you the secret to an accurate AR rifle is the barrel and barrel/bolt fit.  All of the other stuff is just parts.
[/quote]

FC; this is kind of what I was talking about.  Throwing parts together is fine, but it limits what the final product can give you in the accuracy arena.  Another issue is reliability: beware the source(s) of said parts.  A lot of crap was given a gray finish and called 'milspec AR-15 parts' in past years.  I believe things have gotten much better in the past decade, but again, buyer beware.  That's why I said (simply) I'd rely on Colt parts.  You get what you pay for; if it's cheap there is a reason.

[FC]

Ok, as I said, actual mil spec parts, not some junk that got swept up at the end of the day and called mil spec. Build a rifle from actual mil spec parts and you will come up with a rifle that will at worst shoot about 2 MOA and function as reliably as it's design allows, hand pick your barrel, bolt, upper receiver and hand guards and you will likely have a 1 MOA or better rifle. If you buy a decent barrel and free float it you will get about the same.

FWIW Mike Milli from what I can see uses exclusively free float tubes and squares the upper receiver in a lathe, I think most if not all custom builders do both.

If you think that you have to have a $1500+ rifle for it to be worth owning you probably don't want to spend much time around any guys that spent $500-600, if you do you might want to keep some kleenex handy!

If you really want to hurt your feelings, shoot groups every 500 rounds for 10,000 and then count average group size and number of failures, if you are a good shot you might even beat that guy with his $500 rifle by 1/2 MOA but you also might not.

[thinkingman]

FC...I don't think you're going to convince anyone here.
The Colt koolaid is too strong.
The 'experts' on M4.net and AR15.com have everyone convinced mil-spec is the holy grail....when in fact it's rattle loose and sloppy, but functional in severe conditions.
Just let them keep buying Colt and that will keep the prices of the excellent AR's down for the rest of us.
In re OP...do you 2moa milspec or a 1/2moa precision shooter?
Porcupine spec-ops like a video game or a serious gun?
There are two ideas at work here.

[BlackRidge]

...I'm convinced, though its not exactly a secret..

As with anything else, the more quality parts/time that goes into a project/rifle, the better it will perform. Mil-spec is the minimum for these parts to work together, but theres more that goes into it if you want them to work very effectively. (i.e A Ford car will run, but not outperform a BMW...)

General mil-spec parts from any random supplier/mfg will, as FC put it, get you decent results. But parts made by the same supplier, usually with the same quality materials, quality controls and production procedures will almost always outshoot those which are not.  Some companies just chose to go that extra mile, and their products/sales/prices/rep show it

Daniel Defense, Noveske, LMT/etc didn't get to where they were from making your basic mil-spec parts... 

[FC]

Daniel Defense, Noveske, LMT/etc didn't get to where they were from making your basic mil-spec parts... 

You're right! They absolutely got there by brewing up the kool-aid you just poured yourself a glass of!

Mil spec has a lot more to it than general shape, it defines dimensions with margins within a few thousandths, hardness within margins and finish within margins.

[BlackRidge]

I'm not too up to date on this delicious kool-aid you guys keep referring to, ..but now I'm thirsty..  

My DSC and Oly are like night and day, the DS doing a marginal job, and the Oly doing much better. I always attributed the differences to how each co. aqcuires/makes parts, the fit, price and the general time taken to complete each. Could be wrong as always though, I'm sure theres far more that goes into it

[Straight Shooter]

Don't know what the "best" is, but my two "el cheapo" DPMS ARs have a great fit and finish, function flawlessly, and shoot .25 and .50 MOA respectively. 

[epq21]

Rock River all the way!!

[FC]

I'm not too up to date on this delicious kool-aid you guys keep referring to, ..but now I'm thirsty..  

It's purple but I hear it tastes like strawberries

Seriously, what I mean by that is that some (most) of these companies are banking on people believing that you will get a much different product by spending 3x as much or more than you would for an "average" rifle and then touting all of the reasons why on tv shows etc.

Straight Shooter, I have a DPMS upper as well and it flat shoots!

[thinkingman]

Ever shot a milspec Colt 1911 from 'the good old days'?
I have.
Rattle like a can of bolts, run with a handfull of sand in it.
You'll be lucky to hit the broadside of a barn while standing inside of it, but it will put rounds downrange under dire circumstances.
Same idea.
IE..the same part has to fit in any one of a million other parts.
That's Mil-spec

[FC]

Ever shot a milspec Colt 1911 from 'the good old days'?

No but I shot a milspec M16 a fair bit, it was a worn out POS but still a very accurate shooter that never stopped even when I had the barrel glowing. It was still accurate enough for me to qualify "expert" afterwards too, sounds like your 45 needed to be rebuilt a while before you shot it or there was something very wrong with it.

[vmkeith]

From best to not-so-best;

Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
LMT
S&W
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG
Stag
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Olympic
DPMS

This is the "list" I was directed too when I got into AR's. I also think Spikes is up there with BCM and LMT

I'm not sure where this list came from, but I damn sure wouldn't rate BCM, Colt, or Daniel Defense above Noveske.  Me thinks somebody was sampling the wacky tobacky.

[Dirty Mike]

I own an olympic arms and have shot a cmmg cant tell a difference both  shot great mega machine also makes a great product,a local company from tumwater