Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Waterfowl => Topic started by: ICEMAN on May 19, 2008, 08:37:59 PM
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Ok, so my duck hunting buddy just bought a Golden Lab Puppy. I being the good hunting buddy ran over and bought a whole bag of dog training supplies and books, etc... for my buddy and "Rio" his new puppy. (Figured it was the least that I could do since his dog will be chasing my ducks too! ) ( I also froze wings all winter, and brought over the frozen duck wings...)
Anyway....someone at the store was really speaking highly of getting a shock collar for training for the dog. (I have been tazered twice, and I know that schitt ain't funny!) I have absolutely no experience training a dog, shock collars or any of this stuff.
Here is the question: Is a shock collar an appropriate training tool?
For eons', hunters have trained without a shock collar. On the other hand, cops never had tazers...and they are very effective. :chuckle: What do you recommend? Thanks in advance.
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my experience...and my opinion only.
it fully depends on the dog.
my dog has got to be the most thick-headed stubborn creature on the face of mother earth. i have a collar for him. he is also the smartest dog on the face of the earth. i don't even have to turn the collar on anymore. it is the greatest training tool for me and my dog....makes everything about being outdoors with my dog much more fun. i think if my dog listened well and was not such a hard-head, i wouldn't need it.
with that said, there is a whole lot to using and training with it properly. i probably don't have to tell you that. the ones you should be looking at, if not all of them will be fully adjustable power-wise. my dog didn't even blink for the lowest 3 settings(out of 10 i think) 4 gets his attention barely and 5 will put him in his place. if i do need it, 3.5 does all i need it to do, but at this point, i pretty much just use the buzzer or don't turn it on at all.
i decided to get mine after he was chasing birds and wouldn't stop or come to me, he hit a barb-wire fence at full speed, somersaulted and split his shoulder open.
my dog is not a hunting dog, just a family pet.
i have shocked myself on the fingers and on my neck and it ain't too bad at all.
mine is an innotek i believe.
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Yes, but you don't want to use it right away. I'm not sure when the right age is. But do know some people that use it on stubborn dogs and to break bad habbits. There's some books on how to use them. If he goes that route I would defenitly get a book and study up on it. As you could end up ruining a good bird dog. Never used them myself and don't think I'll have to, but would use them if the need arises
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IMO it's how one uses a shock collar. I used one for my lab and she was a great duck dog (she is 13 now and a little tired). I would have your partner read as much as he can and come up to his own opinion.
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Books "Water Dog"...."Game Dog". I feel that shocking is for the people who really train alot of dogs and want quick results to turn a dog into a "machine". Its really not necessary for he average joe nor is it warranted. I wouldnt shock my best friend. :twocents: and just my opinion. Train everyday show patience and you wont need it.
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Here is a link to some good reading. http://www.gundogsupply.com/richard-wolters.html
Richard Wolters Water Dog is a good start for training retrievers.
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Great opinions and tips. Keep them coming, thanks.
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I would say that shocking is more of a correction tool not a training tool. You are only going to use it on a dog that has been trained to respond and do things. 99% of training is reward and consistency. Far more damage than good can be done w/ a shock collar if used improperly. If a guy isn't willing to put in the time early w/ the pup no amount of shock collar work is gonna make up for that.
The breed and the makeup of the dog is going to be a big factor too. Utilization of S Collars on some breeds tends to be a lot greater than others. For instance the pointing breeds vs. the retrievers. There are times that you may need em on labs and goldens but generally far less than the pointers. Again, the dogs make up will play a key role. Some dogs will not be good candidates for heavy handed methods. Some will.
I would suggest not even buying one until the dog is at least 1 to 1 1/2 years old.
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I'm against using them,as someone else mentioned the same training results can be accomplished with just a little more time and effort,and there are some great books on that :twocents:.
I've seen way too many guys on a power trip over using shock collars,juice turned up and shocking the hell out of them. Like anything else if more responsible dog owners used them then maybe I wouldn't be so negative about them.Just last year out pheasant hunting a nice old choc.lab came up to greet me with a big smile on her face,I reached out my hand to give her a little pat on the head and right then her owner juiced her so hard she yelped and literally rolled her over :twocents:.
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I'm an upland hunter exclusively. But what Intruder and Singleshot12 said is absolutely correct. The E-collar on my GSP's is for defunct behavior. IE chasing a deer, elk or rabbit. For that use it is awesome. My 5 year old male wears one, and I may use it once every 5 trips, for correction. I've used an e-collar to teach my male and female to stay away from porcupines and snakes, respectively. Also the one time they ignore you and head after a rabbit or big game, it will be the last. As for training a pup/dog. Repetition, repetition, repetition. :twocents:
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If you use them properly they are the most wonderful tool you could own for training. I used one on my lab, first dog I ever trained and she does every bit as good as my buddies dog which was professionally trained. Make sure you read all the info and watch the video of how to use it, if it doesn't come with one go buy a video so you will learn the correct procedure for using it. The one thing I did wrong was allow my dog to get collar wise so she is a saint when its on, but when its not I cant get her to quite barking at everything we pass in the truck. That gets very annoying after awhile. Also I would suggest not using the collar until they are 8 months or older. JMO.
Brandon
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here is a great site for training tip's:
http://www.carmodybuilders.com/retriever%20training%20info.html (http://www.carmodybuilders.com/retriever%20training%20info.html)
I've trained several dog's now... or maybe I should say "Still training".. since it's never really over. Electric collar's are a great tool, but I seldome use it to train with.. mainly as a corrective device. If you don't have patient's or have a quick temper... then please forget about using one.
Also Richard Wolters Water Dog , was a good method in it's day... but now training is much more refined, and not as rough. Find a training program by Lardy, or Evan Graham, or Rick Stawski
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Here is the question: Is a shock collar an appropriate training tool?
NO, not a training tool, But a great obediance tool.....the key with training a dog is getting the dog to listen to you....just because you zap him doesnt mean he understand what you are saying.....so you teach him to heal, to sit on command, no matter where he is at with the collar, and when you start training with tricks and toys, you use the collar as a reminder to the dog to pay attention......let it make noise every once in awhile, remind him to sit, stuff like that........
But not used on training, only behaivor problems, that being if he needs it at all......sometimes dogs wont need it at all, specially labs, because they tend to be a master pleaser......all they want to do is please there master.....
:twocents: My .02 cents
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One of the biggest trick's.. is training the trainer
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Here's a great artical that may answer your question:
http://www.coonriverkennels.com/pages/tips.asp#ecollar (http://www.coonriverkennels.com/pages/tips.asp#ecollar)
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The e-collars if used correctly they are great, but a person should limit when you use them. The collar I have has a beeper that I activate prior to the shock,the tone of the collar is more often all that is required to correct the behavior. Good luck.. Tritronic collars are great collars
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I have a big old no on the subject. I'll stick to what I do with my dogs: lots of training hours, lots of personal relationship, more training and I do believe in treats. They motivate the dog and they can be leaned out as the dog starts learning to love what he or she is doing.
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Thanks all, actually the dog is coming on fine..... even around gunfire. We had a "Turkey Shoot", 12 friends from work and myself out shooting at once, and the dog was not alarmed one bit from all the action. You would be up on the line shooting clays and the pooch would be up around your feet as though nothing was happening. Not gun shy, that is for sure. (Or deaf...) Anyway, I will relay all this info to my friend, thanks.
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I believe all dogs can benefit from the use of an e-collar, the only difference will be how much each will benefit. The collar itself will not train the dog, it will only give you the ability to hold a dog accountable for its actions at a distance and to correct behavior instantly. At the earliest age of 6 months let the dog wear the collar around for a month. At 7 months you can begin collar conditioning the dog to commands that the dog should already know. Like stated previously, you can ruin a dog with a collar but when used correctly it is very beneficial.
An e-collar is not a short cut way to train but a smart way to train. By being able to correct a dog at the exact time necessary during any circumstance (close, far away, swimming, etc), you are able to limit unnecessary confusion and stress between you and the dog. Why wouldn't you want that?