Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2011, 09:29:45 AM
Go to item 6 and click on "stream mp3 audio."
I can't believe the crap that comes out of his mouth. First, he lies again to the commission and says that they had public support for the changes to the permit system, and that they had been discussing the changes for two years before it was implemented.
Then, towards the end, he talks about one of the changes he plans on making, and that is to make MORE categories for quality permits that would be limited to those with 10 points or more. What a stupid idea. Just what we need- more categories when there are already too many as it is. :bash:
Post by: Curly on April 01, 2011, 10:08:17 AM
By me listening to it, it will likely cause the odds to increase for some of you to draw permits, because I will likely not apply for another permit in this state........
Post by: Bob33 on April 01, 2011, 10:16:41 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 01, 2011, 10:21:33 AM
Post by: Curly on April 01, 2011, 10:40:47 AM
Dave Ware did admit that the chance of drawing Cow or Doe permits went down and so did buck permits. He said quality went up slightly but for individuals the chances went down too.
Bottom line from what I hear is that the new system was not that successful. I haven't heard what the additional $500,000 dollars that they made has done for hunter access, but I have my doubts on what good that is.
Post by: Curly on April 01, 2011, 10:54:23 AM
The two main problems with the system are: 1) Distributing points across the board. 2) Started out with too many categories.
Both of the problems above cannot be fixed easily. How can they fix that? They can't very well remove points now and be fair, and they can't really decrease the amount of categories because people will lose points that they purchased in some categories. So, it looks like they are stuck with an unfair system............
They can add categories if they see a need but to reduce them would be tough.
I really liked drawing a cow permit every couple years, but I guess those days are gone. Looks like I'll have to take up bow hunting to be able to hunt cows more often than every 10 years or so.
Post by: westside Elkhunter on April 01, 2011, 11:13:42 AM
Post by: Special T on April 01, 2011, 11:18:08 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 01, 2011, 11:30:14 AM
Post by: Curly on April 01, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
Post by: westside Elkhunter on April 01, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 01, 2011, 02:22:04 PM
they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags. I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points. Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past. I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices. Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years. that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything. I don't feel too sorry for those folks.I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12. I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags. I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat. Got to go for now, will bitch later.
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2011, 02:34:50 PM
The system was fine until they changed it last year. The only thing that could be done to improve it now, in my opinion, is to get rid of some of the unnecessary categories, such as antlerless moose, the disabled hunter moose and elk permits, youth, and over 65.
It's all in what you apply for. If you apply for a hunt that only has 1 permit, and 3000 applicants, don't expect to draw it even if you have 30 points. If that's all you ever apply for your whole life, don't expect to ever draw it. Because think about it. That would be odds of 1 in 3000, which means it would take a person, on average, THREE THOUSAND YEARS to draw that permit.
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 01, 2011, 02:55:21 PM
Post by: Special T on April 01, 2011, 02:58:22 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2011, 03:16:41 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 01, 2011, 04:27:41 PM
Post by: Special T on April 01, 2011, 04:33:09 PM
Post by: washelkhntr on April 01, 2011, 04:38:13 PM
Post by: grundy53 on April 01, 2011, 04:46:04 PM
I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system. I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply. I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points. I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag. I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.
they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags. I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points. Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past. I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices. Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years. that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything. I don't feel too sorry for those folks.I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12. I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags. I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat. Got to go for now, will bitch later.
I ABSOLUTELY disagree. I BUY might special permit application every year the same as you. I pay just as much as you. What makes you any better then me? I think we should have the same opportunities. If you have 12 points that you have earned then that should be your only advantage. Everyone who pays the same amount of money should be able to put in for the same hunts.
Post by: Curly on April 01, 2011, 05:21:57 PM
What's funny is Dave mentioned how all the extra money was being used for hunter access but he never went into any specifics. I think if they actually did something useful with the money, he would have talked about it. But he didn't. So I think the extra money was used to keep some of their employees working, who otherwise would have been without a job due to lack of funds.
In that audio file, didn't DW say that they would discuss the hunter access later in the meeting? Or did I just hear him wrong?
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2011, 05:32:01 PM
What's funny is Dave mentioned how all the extra money was being used for hunter access but he never went into any specifics. I think if they actually did something useful with the money, he would have talked about it. But he didn't. So I think the extra money was used to keep some of their employees working, who otherwise would have been without a job due to lack of funds.
In that audio file, didn't DW say that they would discuss the hunter access later in the meeting? Or did I just hear him wrong?
Possibly...I'll have to listen to it again tonight after the kids go to bed.
Post by: willapawapiti on April 01, 2011, 07:10:42 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2011, 08:06:38 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 02, 2011, 09:48:38 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 02, 2011, 10:39:31 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 03, 2011, 09:20:16 AM
What's funny is Dave mentioned how all the extra money was being used for hunter access but he never went into any specifics. I think if they actually did something useful with the money, he would have talked about it. But he didn't. So I think the extra money was used to keep some of their employees working, who otherwise would have been without a job due to lack of funds.
I finally with my dial up got the audio (bad quality) downloaded and on a MP3CD so I could listen on my Blue ray player.
What I have so far listened to it I heard him say "we'll talk about this later"
Bobcat you are probably right though.
My beef with this whole pack of lies we have all been fed is this;
Does Ware not SPEW the need to use (biologists) science to set numbers of special permits awarded every year as necessary to promote the health of these deer and elk herds, yet when HIS BABY screws up and skews the science involved it's NO BIG DEAL!!
If permits AREN"T hunted is it not counter productive? Could they not just upgrade their draw system to prevent multiple SP's, or just rid us of this menace?
Post by: jharstad on April 03, 2011, 12:10:13 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2011, 08:22:07 AM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,72082.30.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,72082.30.html)
At that time I wrote...
"I am listening to Dave Ware's recap on the new permit system and a book title is coming to mind... "How to Lie with Statistics."
Some takeaways:
Bottom line, odds went down across the board (more hunter apps + less permits available). Looking to increase permit fees in 2012; $6.50 to $13.00 in 2012 for quality hunt permits. 143k total permit apps in 2009 vs 233 permit apps in 2010. Suggestion to have more special category for people with more than 10 points. 673 people were drawn for multiple permits; 311 for elk."
I have very little faith in the commission and those that work for the WDFW department. The questions from the commissioners showed that they really are out of touch with what is actually going on and that the department can craft presentations to get anything passed.
Post by: Snapshot on April 04, 2011, 09:11:43 AM
The questions from the commissioners showed that they really are out of touch with what is actually going on and that the department can craft presentations to get anything passed.
Something to keep in mind is that commissioners come and go. Every one of them that was there ten years ago is now gone. And as new commissioners come along they have to be educated by the department and, as important, by us hunters; the day they stop asking questions is the day to worry about. Yes, the department sells their ideas through fancy presentations, but a well-informed commission can pull the rug out from under a bad idea in the blink of an eye.
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2011, 09:32:13 AM
It just makes me sick to hear Ware lie to the commission to get his crap approved by them...... :bash:
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2011, 10:16:15 AM
I listened to all of the audio. I did not get the sense that they are a well informed commission.
Post by: Bob33 on April 04, 2011, 10:33:25 AM
Of course Dave Ware could just be lying and there really was more letters against the system than the 46 that he mentioned). :dunno:I alone know for a fact that at least 10 people wrote letters to the commission. I did, and several of my friends did. I also do not know of a single hunter that supported the change, in spite of the "broad public support" comments we hear from Olympia.
Post by: Special T on April 04, 2011, 10:39:15 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2011, 06:44:21 AM
I never said I was better than anyone, I never would. I just don't think the way they draw the special permits is right. If they put your name in a big hat as many times as your points add up and then pick out the names that would make more sense and I would think the draws would come out to make more sense. They do it in a way that doesn't make sense and that allows guys with fewer points to have almost the same odds. As far as advantages go, yes I do think that people with 16 points or more SHOULD have a huge advantage over someone with 6 or less- You bet! that's how it's supposed to work.I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system. I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply. I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points. I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag. I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags. I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points. Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past. I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices. Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years. that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything. I don't feel too sorry for those folks.I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12. I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags. I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat. Got to go for now, will bitch later.
I ABSOLUTELY disagree. I BUY might special permit application every year the same as you. I pay just as much as you. What makes you any better then me? I think we should have the same opportunities. If you have 12 points that you have earned then that should be your only advantage. Everyone who pays the same amount of money should be able to put in for the same hunts.
Post by: grundy53 on April 05, 2011, 02:42:25 PM
I never said I was better than anyone, I never would. I just don't think the way they draw the special permits is right. If they put your name in a big hat as many times as your points add up and then pick out the names that would make more sense and I would think the draws would come out to make more sense. They do it in a way that doesn't make sense and that allows guys with fewer points to have almost the same odds. As far as advantages go, yes I do think that people with 16 points or more SHOULD have a huge advantage over someone with 6 or less- You bet! that's how it's supposed to work.I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system. I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply. I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points. I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag. I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags. I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points. Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past. I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices. Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years. that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything. I don't feel too sorry for those folks.I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12. I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags. I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat. Got to go for now, will bitch later.
I ABSOLUTELY disagree. I BUY might special permit application every year the same as you. I pay just as much as you. What makes you any better then me? I think we should have the same opportunities. If you have 12 points that you have earned then that should be your only advantage. Everyone who pays the same amount of money should be able to put in for the same hunts.
??? The guy's with 16 points DO have a huge advantage over the guy's with six. The guys with 16 have their names in the hat 256 times where as the guy with six point only has his name in the hat 36 times. Are you telling me that they have the same odds? The reason that guys with lower numbers of points draw so often is because there are way more people with 6 points then 16. If I pay for a permit application the same as you I should be able to have a chance at getting drawn the same as you. Your reward for putting in for so many years and not getting drawn is better odds. I don't see what is so wrong with that? :dunno:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2011, 03:29:52 PM
Post by: grundy53 on April 05, 2011, 03:43:10 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think the drawing is a simple as you explained it, with a certain amount of names in the hat. It should be that way, they have a more difficult way of Putting Names in the hat and I couldn't explain how they told me how they do it.
I'm pretty sure how I explained it is how it is. I could be wrong though (it's been known to happen). I don't see what else they could possibly do to the draw other then what I said.
Post by: Bob33 on April 05, 2011, 04:52:44 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think the drawing is a simple as you explained it, with a certain amount of names in the hat. It should be that way, they have a more difficult way of Putting Names in the hat and I couldn't explain how they told me how they do it.
I'm pretty sure how I explained it is how it is. I could be wrong though (it's been known to happen). I don't see what else they could possibly do to the draw other then what I said.
You are absolutely correct, Grundy53. And you are also spot on as to why people with fewer points tend to draw more often than people with lots of points: there are simply a much larger number of them. In 2009 there were 19 elk applicants with 16 points, 2,959 applicants with six points, and 10,374 applicants with two points. That means there are 546 applicants with two points for every applicant with 16 points.
As to how the drawing works, here is WDFW's FAQ:
Q: How do the hunt choices work?
A: When the drawing occurs, it is as if all of the applications for a species category are placed in a barrel. The computer spins the barrel by issuing random numbers to each application. The lowest random number that is issued to each application is the number used to order the applications from the lowest random number to the highest. It is the same as drawing cards from a barrel one by one. The application with the lowest random number is drawn first from the barrel and the hunt choices are checked. As each application comes up for consideration, the first hunt choice is checked to see if there is a permit left to be awarded. If there are none left, the second hunt choice is checked. If there is a permit available for that hunt choice, the application is selected for that hunt. If not, the process continues until all of the hunt choices on the application have been checked. If all of the hunt choices marked on the card have run out of permits, no permits are awarded to that application.
Q: How do I build up points?
A: Each person who applies for a special hunt permit for a species receives a point for applying. If that person is not awarded a special hunt permit during that drawing the point is retained. If the person is awarded a permit, that person's point total drops to zero. If the person who was not awarded a permit for that species applies the next year, they then have two points. A single point is built up each year the person purchases a special permit application until the person is awarded a permit. Points never expire and you do not lose your points if you don’t apply one year.
Q: What is the value of building up points?
A: Building up points is very much like putting more application cards into the barrel. Those that have more cards in the barrel have an advantage over those that have less. The more points a person has built up for a species over time, the greater are the chances that his/hers will be selected.
Q: I heard that the points have multipliers on them. What is that for?
A: Some permit drawing systems are designed so that one random number is issued for each point built up for the species by the applicant. It is the same as having one card in the barrel for each point (one point - one card, two points - two cards, etc.).
Washington's system places a multiplier on the points. The number of points is squared and it is this number of random numbers that are issued to the application (or number of cards in the barrel). If a person applies for an elk permit for the first time, they have one card in the barrel. If a person has built up two points, they have four cards in the barrel. If a person has three points built up, nine cards are in the barrel and so on.
Placing a multiplier on the points more noticeably increases the chances of being selected over someone who is a new applicant or was recently awarded a permit.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 05, 2011, 05:50:53 PM
Post by: grundy53 on April 05, 2011, 05:55:45 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2011, 07:16:41 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 05, 2011, 07:26:05 PM
I won't be surprised at all though if they choose to make this state's permit system even more ridiculous than it already is. We must be the laughing stock of every other fish & wildlife department in this country. :bash:I've been thinking maybe we should run a contest to help them come up with some new categories. Each one could generate additional revenue, and probably would have "broad public support" if the questions are asked correctly. Here are some ideas:
Crappy deer: the opposite of "quality deer"; should be easy to draw with just a few points.
Disabled deer: only deer with deformities are legal; could be presented as doing nature a favor.
"Fake spike" elk. Not sure what the definition would be, but it sounds like a cool category.
Odd numbered elk: the sum of points on the left and right sides have to be an odd number.
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2011, 07:31:29 PM
(I'm guessing they have already thought of it though)
Post by: trophyhunt on April 06, 2011, 06:31:50 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 06, 2011, 06:57:21 AM
In 2009 there were 652 applicants with ten or more elk points. Using the Dayton elk tag as an example: there were 30 permits. If every one of those 652 applicants were to apply for one of those tags, it would take over 20 years to award them. Meanwhile, everyone else has no chance. Is that really a better solution?
The fact is there are far more applicants than quality tags.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 06, 2011, 07:11:16 AM
I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system. I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply. I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points. I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag. I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.
I agree. If it were left up to "luck of the draw" what is the use of a point system? Id be for a 10 pt plus only category. I don't think it is fair for the limited tag number categories for the first time hunter to draw a sheep tag while the guy with max points gets to bang his head on the wall for another year. Yeah, it seems unfortunate to those just starting but hey, get in line.
:twocents:
Post by: nontypical176 on April 06, 2011, 07:37:08 AM
Yep the WDFW has succesfully convinced me that I'd be happier not paying for the special permit. This year is gonna be great, no pressure because of work, just good times in the field. I do wonder how much of the money we dump into the WDFW for permits was wasted coming up with this genius new system, or if it was just an overnight brain fart. Good luck with your permits.
Post by: Curly on April 06, 2011, 07:57:19 AM
I'm guessing the guys that don't like the 10 points or better catagory don't have 10 points? I would think if you've been waiting 16 plus years to draw a tag that you would get tired of seeing guys with 2 points drawing? I'm not here to argue with anyone, just my :twocents:.
I don't like the 10 point category idea; and yeah, I don't have 10 points, but even if I did I wouldn't like it. I'd like to think that if I had more than 10 points I'd still think it is a bad idea just like I'd hope that I would have seen the distribution of points into all categories as a terrible idea too.
There are currently too many categories as it is. Adding another is just not a good idea........maybe it is a good idea for making a few extra dollars for WDFW, but overall it is a bad idea, IMO. They had a system in place that worked, so they should have just kept it the way it was or if they wanted to change it, it could have been tweaked slightly. Actually, the category thing is okay if they would have just limited it to buck and doe and bull and cow and left all the other categories out of the system. (And they should have made the applicant decide which category they wanted all their points distributed into the first year of the category thing).
For one thing, what are they going to do......make a category for entiat or desert for guys with more than 10 points? They couldn't afford to give out many permits in those categories to make it worthwhile. Or maybe they will just take each unit that has permits and take out 1% of the permits to include in a 10 point category? Most of those guys with more than 10 points would still not draw that permit. There are already other categories that guys with more than 10 points can draw; and they were given points in each category so they should just feel fortunate for that and quit bitchin'. :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2011, 07:58:03 AM
The system is already designed to give people a better chance of drawing every year, as their number of points increase. It is absolutely asinine to even consider making a separate category for those with 10 points or more. The only reason the DFW would do such a thing is to sell more applications. I won't be surprised at all though if they choose to make this state's permit system even more ridiculous than it already is. We must be the laughing stock of every other fish & wildlife department in this country. :bash:
:yeah:
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2011, 08:02:25 AM
I'm guessing the guys that don't like the 10 points or better catagory don't have 10 points? I would think if you've been waiting 16 plus years to draw a tag that you would get tired of seeing guys with 2 points drawing? I'm not here to argue with anyone, just my :twocents:.
Well by your reasoning then we should have a local only category. Because i'm sure that people who live in the those units are tired of watching out of towners draw those tags every year while they have to sit at home. ITS NOT FAIR :cryriver:
Post by: Curly on April 06, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle: :hello:
Post by: Bob33 on April 06, 2011, 08:17:18 AM
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/FAB33AB5-33BA-4BF4-9E40-12418F55E7BB/0/ElkMinPP10.pdf (http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/FAB33AB5-33BA-4BF4-9E40-12418F55E7BB/0/ElkMinPP10.pdf)
Some of the best elk units have minimum points to draw of 15 or more. That means you have absolutely no chance of drawing for the first 15 years. It takes 15 or more years of applying just to play the game. Then you have a chance that is often less than 100%.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 06, 2011, 05:31:57 PM
Ok I might be crying a river, but it's been 15 years- almost half my life since I've drawn an elk tag... can't I cry just a little.I'm guessing the guys that don't like the 10 points or better catagory don't have 10 points? I would think if you've been waiting 16 plus years to draw a tag that you would get tired of seeing guys with 2 points drawing? I'm not here to argue with anyone, just my :twocents:.
Well by your reasoning then we should have a local only category. Because i'm sure that people who live in the those units are tired of watching out of towners draw those tags every year while they have to sit at home. ITS NOT FAIR :cryriver:
Post by: grundy53 on April 06, 2011, 07:11:25 PM
Ok I might be crying a river, but it's been 15 years- almost half my life since I've drawn an elk tag... can't I cry just a little.I'm guessing the guys that don't like the 10 points or better catagory don't have 10 points? I would think if you've been waiting 16 plus years to draw a tag that you would get tired of seeing guys with 2 points drawing? I'm not here to argue with anyone, just my :twocents:.
Well by your reasoning then we should have a local only category. Because i'm sure that people who live in the those units are tired of watching out of towners draw those tags every year while they have to sit at home. ITS NOT FAIR :cryriver:
:chuckle: everybody is entitled to their own little pity party every once in awhile. :chuckle:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 06, 2011, 08:25:10 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 06, 2011, 08:32:09 PM
Thanks I feel much better........for now atleast. 2 months from now I will be crying a river for sure when some lucky f er with 2 points gets MY TAG... :chuckle: :chuckle: :bash: :bash:I've got an idea: how about if you give me all your points, and I'll give you just a couple back. That way you can be sure to draw!
(well, it was worth a try...) :chuckle: