Post by: bearpaw on April 27, 2011, 11:43:16 AM
Pictures of a cow elk being chased by three wolves ... the pictures were
captured by a trail cam. The son of a co-worker set the camera up.
Post by: bearpaw on April 27, 2011, 11:44:21 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on April 27, 2011, 11:44:29 AM
Post by: coyotewallace on April 27, 2011, 11:53:13 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 11:56:07 AM
Post by: denali on April 27, 2011, 12:23:53 PM
Thanks Bearpaw
Post by: mulehunter on April 27, 2011, 12:28:39 PM
WOLVES. :bfg:
Mulehunter. :bash:
Post by: jackmaster on April 27, 2011, 12:31:15 PM
Post by: saylean on April 27, 2011, 12:39:42 PM
Post by: rtspring on April 27, 2011, 12:42:22 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 27, 2011, 12:45:51 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 01:14:26 PM
Post by: wolf moderate on April 27, 2011, 02:01:34 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 02:08:32 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 27, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Do any of you know where this was taken? I am pretty sure it's off the trail that heads to Maki Lake (NE of McCall). Just curious. :hello:
I didn't ask....
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 27, 2011, 02:40:45 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 27, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 03:03:31 PM
Post by: mebco09 on April 27, 2011, 03:07:25 PM
SSS
Post by: wolf moderate on April 27, 2011, 04:19:24 PM
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
Post by: Special T on April 27, 2011, 04:28:40 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,329.0/topicseen.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,329.0/topicseen.html)
I don't mind a good sparing partner on discussions, but i might wait before i started :pee: all over stuff. :twocents:
Post by: 6x6in6 on April 27, 2011, 04:36:23 PM
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food? I view it as nature taking it's course and happy to see that it can still happen in this day n' age...Elk don't kill themselves for food. They are herbivore's.
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
If it was nature taking it's course, the reintroduction would have been natural.
Something wrong with taking your dog for a walk in the woods to check your trail cam's?
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 27, 2011, 04:46:39 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 04:54:15 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 27, 2011, 05:03:59 PM
Post by: wolf moderate on April 27, 2011, 05:05:47 PM
I live in Idaho and probably spend more time in elk country than 90% of you. I missed a monster 6 point archery hunting out of the Stanley area and saw LOTS of wolf sign AND lots of elk. Wolves should be managed by the states at a number between 300-600. Just don't understand all the hate when a wolf kills an elk. It's what they do. Believe me though, when wolves are allowed to be hunted again, I'll be the first one in line to buy a tag. There are too many in Idaho, but that doesn't mean they should be wiped out, just reduced in numbers and managed by the states.
Anywho, thanks for letting me post and hope to see you out in the mounains sometime! :IBCOOL:
Post by: seth30 on April 27, 2011, 05:13:17 PM
Post by: denali on April 27, 2011, 05:22:04 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 27, 2011, 07:01:51 PM
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food? I view it as nature taking it's course and happy to see that it can still happen in this day n' age...
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
Sorry dude, but the whole introduction was unnatural, done by man, with a larger northern specie, and so you whole phylosphy holds no water. These are canadian wolves not northwestern wolves. It would be like putting Saskatchewan whitetails in Florida and expecting the Florida whitetails to compete. Or like putting alaska moose in washington and expecting shiras moose to compete.... :bash:
Sorry, just get disgusted by cluless people making poor management decisions. :chuckle:
Post by: BigD on April 27, 2011, 07:13:43 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 27, 2011, 07:50:40 PM
We don't know where the pics were taken...right?
We all know wolves chase, kill and eat elk.
I don't get it. Is the location of the pics the reasoning behind the picture proof?
Not trying to be a wiseass...I'm just cornfused.
Post by: Alan K on April 27, 2011, 08:12:22 PM
Post by: mulehunter on April 27, 2011, 09:37:02 PM
Not to ask a dumbas question, but what is this proof of?
We don't know where the pics were taken...right?
We all know wolves chase, kill and eat elk.
I don't get it. Is the location of the pics the reasoning behind the picture proof?
Not trying to be a wiseass...I'm just cornfused.
It makes me little wondering why he choose this spot to set up...... maybe he found few Elk jump over cliff end up died. Maybe he set up there to see if pack wolves has good educated how to push this way to end.. :yike: this pic of background look like Idaho for sure. Its very interested how it got this spot somehow.
Mulehunter.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on April 27, 2011, 09:57:43 PM
Regardless, this happens as we all know. If I see one
I'm going to throw a 180gr rock at the wolf very very hard ; )
I always carry 5 in my pocket!
Post by: jackmaster on April 28, 2011, 06:57:25 AM
Post by: jackmaster on April 28, 2011, 07:01:55 AM
jackmaster watch what you say or you will be investigated next ...... :bdid: all my I love this site !!! hahahahathanks for the heads up bowhunter but i look at it this way, if people can stand at soldiers funerals and say they are happy that they got killed in combat :bash: :bash: then it should be ok if i say that wolves are gonna have accidents
Post by: BIGINNER on April 28, 2011, 07:29:03 AM
wolfmoderate guy, so you think its ok for a pack of hounds that are treeing on a cougar to be wiped out by a pack of wolves that has been introduced by man? ok so take away the only method of controlling the cougar population which is hound hunting, and then add a crap load of wolves to the mix and i am sure the deer and elk population will do just fine, i know you didnt say squat about taking away hound hunting but that is what has happened here in washington. wolves went by the wayside years and years ago because deer and elk populations couldnt handle the pressure of wolves , cougars, and a couple of other predators always hunting them, thats why we decimated them years ago, well wolves belong in canada and alaska because nature has balanced them out in those areas, sure eventually maybe nature would balance them out in the lower 48, but the damage they would cause before we get there would be insane, and the number one reason we wiped them out years ago is because dairy farmers and beef farmers would end up paying the ultimate price , wolves love to eat poor ole farmers joes cows
I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT IT WOULD BALANCE OUT IN THE LOWER 48, THE WAY NATURE BALANCES OUT IS: PREDITORS KILL THE PREY, AND ONCE THERE IS A LITTLE PREY LEFT, THE PREIDITORS WILL START TO THIN OUT UNTILL THE PREY RECOVERS, THEN THE REPDITORS HAVE MORE FOOD,....ECT.. THATS THE CYCLE. BUT.... ONCE YOU COUNT IN THE HUMAN IMPACT,..... THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN....
THE WOVES WILL KILL OFF THE PREY.(DEER AND ELK) AND ONCE THERE IS LITTLE OR NO DEER AND ELK LEFT,.. THE WOLVES WON'T START TO DIE OF... BECAUSE THEY HAVE LIVESTOCK TO TURN TO. SO THE CYCLE IS INTERUPTED, AND THE PREY WONT BE ABLE TO RECOVER... SO... HUMANS INTURUPTED THE CYCLE.. (SURPRIZE!!!) THATS WHY WE NEED TO KEEP THE BALANCE...NATURE CAN'T TAKE ITS COURSE IN THIS SITUATION... SO WE HAVE TO. :twocents:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 28, 2011, 07:34:34 AM
Post by: Killmore on April 28, 2011, 07:43:59 AM
Post by: jackmaster on April 28, 2011, 10:11:58 AM
I wonder what people are going to say when they go to see the elk at oak creek and any of the feed station's for that matter and witness a daily killing of the elk there by the wolfs..oh boy could you imagine that, mama tree hugger and little tree huger see a wolf come outta nowhere and savagely kill a cute little calf elk right in front of them :yike:oh damn, we shouldnt have wolves in this state or any other of the lower 48 states because wolves dont belong down here, they have thrived up north, so leave it alone, if mama nature wanted wolves here in the lower 48 she would have made it happen, but oh no, man has to put his dick beaters into the mix :bdid:, my grandpa said, "if it isnt broke boy, dont fix it"
Post by: Alan K on April 28, 2011, 10:19:05 AM
Post by: Killmore on April 28, 2011, 10:39:55 AM
And then we can ducttape their faces to the elk fence and force momma and little tree hugger to watch.. They created the mess.. and your grampa was right...I wonder what people are going to say when they go to see the elk at oak creek and any of the feed station's for that matter and witness a daily killing of the elk there by the wolfs..oh boy could you imagine that, mama tree hugger and little tree huger see a wolf come outta nowhere and savagely kill a cute little calf elk right in front of them :yike:oh damn, we shouldnt have wolves in this state or any other of the lower 48 states because wolves dont belong down here, they have thrived up north, so leave it alone, if mama nature wanted wolves here in the lower 48 she would have made it happen, but oh no, man has to put his dick beaters into the mix :bdid:, my grandpa said, "if it isnt broke boy, dont fix it"
Post by: Little Dave on April 28, 2011, 11:31:34 AM
HUH ....The only people hating this is the sportsmen and cattle rangers of course when they kill live stock ... For everyone else this is nature taking its course ... but when thet wipe out the elk then who will be to blame ?? :yeah:
If this is letting nature take its course, and that is the right thing to do... then we should not be in the business of putting out forest fires or immunizing against disease.
Like ring-around-the-rosies (a cute little children's rhyme about the plague), we have other affectionate stories about other dreaded problems of old like the wolf eating children, the wolf destroying the pig's home, even crying wolf... For a reason. Wolves will cause problems. The new passionate concept of the friendly and helpful wolf is more a symptom of how out of touch many have become with their neighbors, with history, and despite good intentions, with nature.
Post by: jackmaster on April 28, 2011, 12:03:11 PM
well said sirHUH ....The only people hating this is the sportsmen and cattle rangers of course when they kill live stock ... For everyone else this is nature taking its course ... but when thet wipe out the elk then who will be to blame ?? :yeah:
If this is letting nature take its course, and that is the right thing to do... then we should not be in the business of putting out forest fires or immunizing against disease.
Like ring-around-the-rosies (a cute little children's rhyme about the plague), we have other affectionate stories about other dreaded problems of old like the wolf eating children, the wolf destroying the pig's home, even crying wolf... For a reason. Wolves will cause problems. The new passionate concept of the friendly and helpful wolf is more a symptom of how out of touch many have become with their neighbors, with history, and despite good intentions, with nature.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 28, 2011, 01:25:17 PM
wolfmoderate guy, so you think its ok for a pack of hounds that are treeing on a cougar to be wiped out by a pack of wolves that has been introduced by man? ok so take away the only method of controlling the cougar population which is hound hunting, and then add a crap load of wolves to the mix and i am sure the deer and elk population will do just fine, i know you didnt say squat about taking away hound hunting but that is what has happened here in washington. wolves went by the wayside years and years ago because deer and elk populations couldnt handle the pressure of wolves , cougars, and a couple of other predators always hunting them, thats why we decimated them years ago, well wolves belong in canada and alaska because nature has balanced them out in those areas, sure eventually maybe nature would balance them out in the lower 48, but the damage they would cause before we get there would be insane, and the number one reason we wiped them out years ago is because dairy farmers and beef farmers would end up paying the ultimate price , wolves love to eat poor ole farmers joes cows
I think wolf moderate stepped in a pile here, but I have to agree with him that we should not be surprised to see wolves (not wolf's!!) chasing or killing elk. We all know that happens. I'm biased about the hound hunting/wolf issue because I run hounds and love my dogs. I would be devastated if they were killed by wolves, or bears, or lions...all of which can happen anytime you loose the dogs. It's part of the deal.
I disagree that wolves should be decimated because a pile of you guys 'hate' them, or because lots of ranchers 'hate' them. There is enough space ( I call it space, because it's not really habitat...) in our state to support a managed population of wolves. There is also enough space in our state that could be high quality habitat and support 10X the number of prey animals and predators. Rather than worry about whether or not wolves are going to end hunting or ranching, we should be worrying about ways to fix our decimated habitat to support wolves, elk, deer, hunters...
We should be finding ways to support wild places and protect quality habitat.
Post by: Little Dave on April 28, 2011, 01:43:57 PM
In this perspective, before we can have good habitat, which precedes lots of game and enough space for wolves, we need more sportsmen to sustain our interest in habitat improvement. To get lots of sportsmen we need opportunity. So in that light, it's not a real good idea right now to start huge population swings in wolf and ungulate populations. The wolves can wait until we are ready and have this planned out well. There are plenty more wolves where these came from and there is no urgency to have so many wolves now.
We can get there from here, but we all need to sing from the same songbook to make it happen.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 28, 2011, 02:02:30 PM
Don't get me wrong- I love the hunt and I love to pursue- I just feel like too many folks care more about thier ability to go out for a weekend and have a blast shooting at animals- more than they care about knowing that the animals are there. :twocents:
Post by: jackmaster on April 28, 2011, 02:20:04 PM
We need sportsmen that care more about the wildlife than their hunting opportunity. We need people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, not just hunting.i dont want to start a pissin match here but i could almost guarantee you that 90 percent of the hunters would give their left testy for wildlife protection, everyone i personally know gives back to wildlife or does what they can, i know i do and i love what i do , from feeding the elk to putn up wood duck houses, i get just as big a thrill letn a deer pass instead of shootn him as i do shootn him, i would rather take a kid huntn and watch him getn somethn and i know most true sportsman feel the same way, huntn is a blast , connecting with your animal is the bonus, this state is not ready for wolves, and mr. and mrs tree hugger arent ready either, my daughter would have nightmares if she ever saw a wolf kill a baby elk and she is in a family of hunters we are a long ways from being able to manage wolves, hell we cant even manage the cougar population,
Don't get me wrong- I love the hunt and I love to pursue- I just feel like too many folks care more about thier ability to go out for a weekend and have a blast shooting at animals- more than they care about knowing that the animals are there. :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on April 28, 2011, 02:59:43 PM
We need sportsmen that care more about the wildlife than their hunting opportunity. We need people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, not just hunting.i dont want to start a pissin match here but i could almost guarantee you that 90 percent of the hunters would give their left testy for wildlife protection, everyone i personally know gives back to wildlife or does what they can, i know i do and i love what i do , from feeding the elk to putn up wood duck houses, i get just as big a thrill letn a deer pass instead of shootn him as i do shootn him, i would rather take a kid huntn and watch him getn somethn and i know most true sportsman feel the same way, huntn is a blast , connecting with your animal is the bonus, this state is not ready for wolves, and mr. and mrs tree hugger arent ready either, my daughter would have nightmares if she ever saw a wolf kill a baby elk and she is in a family of hunters we are a long ways from being able to manage wolves, hell we cant even manage the cougar population,
Don't get me wrong- I love the hunt and I love to pursue- I just feel like too many folks care more about thier ability to go out for a weekend and have a blast shooting at animals- more than they care about knowing that the animals are there. :twocents:
:yeah: Well said.
Post by: wsucowboy on April 28, 2011, 03:37:45 PM
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food? I view it as nature taking it's course and happy to see that it can still happen in this day n' age...Wolfmod guy, You say your you spend a lot of time in elk country and you claim that you missed a shot at a 6 point while archery hunting but you say "aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food" while any one that has spent time in elk country would know that elk don't kill elk for food. Seems to me like your just trying to stir the pot :twocents:
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 28, 2011, 04:12:11 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 28, 2011, 04:45:49 PM
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food? I view it as nature taking it's course and happy to see that it can still happen in this day n' age...Wolfmod guy, You say your you spend a lot of time in elk country and you claim that you missed a shot at a 6 point while archery hunting but you say "aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food" while any one that has spent time in elk country would know that elk don't kill elk for food. Seems to me like your just trying to stir the pot :twocents:
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
Or....it's possible it was one of those dang typo's....like he meant to say wolves eat elk.
It's just a thought. I'm convinced that not everyone is on here all the time making typos to stir the pot.
Post by: wolf moderate on April 28, 2011, 06:03:18 PM
Obviously it was a typo. It's obvious that many of you aren't true sportsmen, but rather just shooters who don't care about a balanced ecosystem. Elk aren't supposed to be "fed" imo. I also think that if you are going to hunt cougars w/ dogs (which I agree is necessary in order to keep the population w/in parameters) you should be ready for the consequences...It's not a zoo out there, these are wild animals.
Anywho, I am all for wolves, so long as they are kept "in check". Not sure what the issue is with that, but then again I'm not a road hunter. I hear road hunters around my area that are constantly whining because elk aren't standing out in the meadows anymore along side the road. Sorry that you have to get off your fat arse and actually hunt now. Don't get me started on the lazy ATVers!
Well, I can see this isn't my find of "hunters". I'll find my way back to areas that care about all wildlife and ecosystems. Not just elk. Look at the Mt. Emily area of Oregon. Sad the way that overhunting has trashed this former elk mecca. No wolves to blame on that cluster fck of management :bash: Just piss pour management.
Post by: rtspring on April 28, 2011, 06:29:12 PM
I went fishing in a lake one time and pulled up a lantern that was still lit from the bottom of the lake. Now if you quit feedin us a bunch of BS I will change the story and put the lantern out..
I think just from your name that you are up to no good here. Consequences? like what? I hope that you share with us that wolves are getting out of hand and people were made to beileve one thing but in the end the outcome was no where near what was originally planned. I for one will not tolerate the destruction of Elk herds that I have fought hard to build up as a Hunter and person who loves the outdoors as much as any other that walks the hills... I have no problem with wolves being back in the hills, but I will not have them overrun the populations of wild game like they have else where. And I damn sure won't let them try to attack me or my family while being involved in outdoor activities.......
Post by: wolf moderate on April 28, 2011, 06:46:43 PM
Here is an excellent reference that I like. http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/ID_wolf_plan_2008.pdf (http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/ID_wolf_plan_2008.pdf)
Anyhow, I just do not think the way in which some hunters are acting towards wolves, are putting us in the best of light. Morons that spout "SSS" are at the top of the moron scale. Also, I've killed bears and will continue to do so, because I believe it's my little part to manage the population. Same goes w/ cougars (should I ever get a chance to take one) and will be the same way once wolves are able to be hunted again. Basically, my point is, what's wrong w/ a few wolves around? Doesn't it add to a true wilderness experience? Now don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed as everyone else about the bunny huggers using the courts to keep the states from managing wolves. Once the states are granted the opportunity to manage the wolves, they will do as good a job as they do with elk, bears and cougars.
Thanks for letting me post :hello:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 28, 2011, 06:53:08 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 28, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 28, 2011, 07:24:17 PM
Post by: wolf moderate on April 28, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
The nice thing about OR, WA, ID, MT, and WY is that they aren't as liberal as California. Hopefully, this will mean that we won't have to worry about issues that CA has had, like w/ the cougars. Then again, who knows.
Post by: grundy53 on April 28, 2011, 08:03:37 PM
Post by: denali on April 28, 2011, 08:06:26 PM
Post by: wolf moderate on April 28, 2011, 08:08:02 PM
Thanks. 8)
Post by: Gringo31 on April 28, 2011, 08:08:12 PM
Quote
Anywho, I am all for wolves, so long as they are kept "in check".
Great Wolfmod! Sounds like you are like most of us and therefore NOT for wolves.
Post by: grundy53 on April 28, 2011, 08:14:11 PM
Sorry but I'm blunt. When I read a bunch of people talking about SSS and whining about hunting dogs dying on the job I can't help it. Anywho, I spoke my peace, best of luck to you guys in the field.
Thanks. 8)
If by blunt you mean uninformed and talking out your a$$ then yes, your blunt. Now why don't you go find some different hunters to harass.
Post by: bearpaw on April 28, 2011, 09:12:53 PM
Hello....
Real hunters in my book support each other and expect reasonable management of all species by the agencies. They work together to accomplish these goals and they don't knock everyone else while they try to portray themselves as the only ehtical being of the bush.
I have seen hundreds of cougar, thousands of bear, and tens of thousands of elk and deer, all in person on the mountain, I can assure you that is no exageration and people who know me can verify that. I am hunting 6 months of the year and have seen a fair amount of habitat throughout the west and other areas of the world in my time so I feel I am fairly qualified to comment on which habitats harbor the most wildlife.
Fact:
Some of the best elk habitat in the world is in Utah. Much of it has a maze of roads, cattle grazing, cougar, coyotes, plus gas and oil wells throughout. During hunting season I have looked at over 1200 elk in a single day. That is undisputable proof that road access is not the most significant factor for developing good wildlife habitat and high game numbers. Yes it helps elk to have blocks of a few square miles across for escapement from hunters, but the main reason roads are harmful to elk is only because they give hunters access. If you limit the hunting pressure, then a reasonable amount of roads are not that detrimental and the proof is shown by the many areas in the west that harbor the most wildlife, many are roaded areas. :twocents:
Fact:
We hunt an alfalfa ranch in Utah that has a few thousand acres, you can drive practically anywhere on the ranch, except the willow thickets along the river, there are over-the-counter tags for bulls, but we limit the kill to 10-12 (6 point) bulls and 30 to 50 cows every year. There is a herd of 200 to 400 elk on the property constantly with workers and cattle running all over the ranch, farm equipment running, and even with that activity the ranch is still a wildlife paradise.
Fact:
The best mule deer and whitetail hunting I have seen is on private ranches in eastern Montana and Wyoming. NE Washington ranches have quite a few deer too. The ranches we hunt have cattle all over and the ranchers drive trucks, atv's, and ride horses all over the ranches year around checking and feeding cattle. They log part of these ranches every year on a 10 to 15 year rotation. In the winter the deer eat with the cattle while the rancher is spreading hay with the tractor. When we hunt these ranches we often see 30+ mature bucks per day while driving all over the ranch like a fat lazy slob hunter would. We road hunt, yep we road hunt them to death like a bunch of fat lazy slobs, but we look at nice bucks day after day and lots of them. I do not allow much hiking because penetrating bedding areas would push some game off the ranch. We see coyotes all the time and there are some bear and cougar as well, we kill coyotes, bear, and cougar when we can to help manage the predator population. With all the roads, motorized vehicles, human disturbances, and shooting of predators, the overall deer, elk, and even the predator numbers are higher than most anywhere else. More proof your theory is flawed. :twocents:
Game managers must limit harvest of deer or elk when needed and they must manage predators or all the game numbers will suffer, even the predator numbers will suffer in the end if left unchecked. It's not the roads, its not human interaction, it's not even a problem to shoot some predators, it's the failure of man to manage them all correctly that is the limiting factor for wildlife. Too many predators on the landscape heavily impacts the numbers of other animals and eventually will cause decline of the predators themself from starvation. Hunters do the overall predator population a favor by keeping their numbers in check. :twocents:
Fact:
If you want to see the lowest elk and deer populations go to yellowstone, the lolo, or north cascades park where large predator numbers have been unchecked. Predators now leave those places looking for better numbers of prey in human inhabited areas with all the roads and activity.
I have never wanted to see wolves wiped off the face of the earth, but I don't think having wolves in unchecked numbers is too smart. The wolf lovers have actually caused an uprising against wolves by being so forceful against allowing any reasonable management. The wolf lovers have actually caused the wolf population to decrease in areas like the Lolo because they wouldn't allow any management. Now wolves are having to dispurse to new areas to find food and even attack livestock due to the lack of wildlife.
Mt Emily
I know guys who hunt Mt Emily in Oregon and they kill huge elk. Roads and vehicles are irelevent. All F&G managers have to do is limit the amount of hunting season or tags and properly manage predators to control ungulate numbers. Pretty simple until wolf lovers or cougar lovers get involved and prevent proper management. Finally Oregon is waking up and going to manage their insane cougar population. If there are areas in Mt Emily that need help, killing a few cats will likely help.
Washington and Oregon can probably sustain 50 to 100 wolves each without significant impacts, but the wolf lovers will prevent reasonable management, wolf numbers will rise like they did in Idaho, ungulates, livestock, and pets will pay the price of improper management, and eventually people will revolt against wolves just like they have in Idaho and Montana. :twocents:
Wilderness
Washington has about 20 wilderness areas. Just how many do we need to make some of you guys happy. I am still able to get into these areas but I know eventually I will not be able to hike the mountains like I used to. What about all our senoirs and our disabled friends, by your standards they don't deserve to hunt or get into the mountains. Most of them have to drive to where they hunt and many have permits to shoot from within the vehicle. I guess they are fat lazy slobs who don't deserve to hunt. :twocents:
More wilderness means less access to all of those folks and to most Americans. If there are 20 wilderness areas in WA, just how many tens of millions of acres of wilderness is there in the west? How much wilderness do you guys need? My goodness do you have any sense of reality? :twocents:
Apologies to everyone for the rant and for sounding so arrogant, but my button was pushed pretty hard and I felt the need to offer a few real facts about where many of the best wildlife numbers really do exist, right on heavily roaded ranches and mountain areas with oil and gas drilling, cattle grazing, atv's, tractors, predator hunting, and all kinds of human activity. :twocents: :hello:
Post by: buckhorn2 on April 28, 2011, 09:30:14 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on April 28, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on April 28, 2011, 09:39:43 PM
I actually saw this same sign hanging on a cable across a logging road in the blues.
MS
Post by: Machias on April 28, 2011, 10:08:34 PM
Post by: mulehunter on April 28, 2011, 10:25:07 PM
past 1930's. Old time, we all know what best and right for our future about wolves. We already explain and explain. We never want ur money but ur people as EG only want money and investment on Wolves busniess to kill everything what's in wood. :bash:
people lost their animals to wolves. We lost two dogs to wolves pack and no other word to explain. TRUST ME.
I do forgive u if u support ur wolf who ate our dogs. But I will NOT FORGIVE THOSE WOLF FOR WHAT THEY DID TO US. People like u only look one way. (MONEY AND POWER) and not care any much for whole loss elk and other animals that wolves have killed. :bash:
Mulehunter.
Post by: bearpaw on April 28, 2011, 10:36:55 PM
Next, The amount of meat a wolf eats each year can vary. During a study in Yellowstone Park, 24 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1997 and 57 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1998. A total of 81 wolves were observed for a one month period and 114 kills were observed. This included 106 elk, 6 moose, 1 mule deer, and 1 bison. The average kill rate was 1.4 elk per wolf per month. That study indicates that 1 wolf will eat 17 elk per year. It would require 44 deer to equal the same body mass as 17 elk. So at that rate, 100 wolves will eat about 1700 elk or 4400 deer per year, but 500 wolves will eat about 8,500 elk or 22,000 deer per year...(USGS Study) http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/results.htm#table1 (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/results.htm#table1)
500 wolves is too many for Idaho..... :bdid:
Post by: wolf moderate on April 28, 2011, 11:01:18 PM
While hunting mule deer out of Maupin, Oregon, my brother and I accidentally hiked onto a private ranch. It was awesome. Saw 8 monster mullies and I shot a decent 4 pointer there. unfortunately we came back the next day to fill my brother's tag and the land owner was there while my brother was about to shoot a wall hanger buck lol. He threatened to have us arrested. Luckily my military ID helped get out of that situation. Not really hunting though, more paying to shoot. It was along the Deschutes river with tasty alfalfa fields nearby that the deer could not resist :drool:
Post by: wsucowboy on April 28, 2011, 11:27:32 PM
For starters wolfmod. You would get a lot further with people if you didn't come on here with your first few post and accuse us of being a bunch of moronic fat road hunters. Also Washington is as bad as California. That's why we are so worried.:yeah: Some of us are fat non road hunters you know! :chuckle:
Post by: Little Dave on April 29, 2011, 12:04:24 AM
We need sportsmen that care more about the wildlife than their hunting opportunity. We need people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, not just hunting.
Don't get me wrong- I love the hunt and I love to pursue- I just feel like too many folks care more about thier ability to go out for a weekend and have a blast shooting at animals- more than they care about knowing that the animals are there. :twocents:
I see what you mean. I don't agree. Consider the converse of your argument which might be something like this:
We already have people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, hikers, campers, bird watchers. Every year they have the opportunity to pay into the system that supports habitat buy purchasing lots of hunting gear, a deer tag, a duck stamp, a small game license, or a RMEF membership. Generally they don't. Generally, they think that they pay into the general fund and that's good enough. Are they lousy people? Not really, saving money is just a higher priority for them.
It's hard to figure hunters. Some go for meat, some go for the kill, some go for the experience, some go to mentor, some go to just get away, tradition, lifestyle, a memory, hundreds of reasons. We're all sportsmen no matter our reason for being out there or the way we hunt. That's the emotional side of this and there's no figuring emotion.
So setting aside emotion, what's left is the economics. Saving money is also in the interest of hunters, the hunter scouts for game and goes there. It's always been that way. If the game is not in Washington, he doesn't hunt Washington, it wouldn't make sense. His money goes where he goes. For lack of opportunity a hunter can enjoy what remains of the wildlife and wild places without paying into the system just like everybody else.
If the wolves move in and reduce opportunity, revenue dries up, the biologists learn to make fries and flip burgers. It really is that simple. Better have a lot of deer and elk available before the wolves move in.
Post by: jackmaster on April 29, 2011, 07:01:57 AM
Sorry but I'm blunt. When I read a bunch of people talking about SSS and whining about hunting dogs dying on the job I can't help it. Anywho, I spoke my peace, best of luck to you guys in the field.do you have any idea what its like to have one of your hounds get killed, i doubt you have ever owned hounds, otherwise you wouldnt be making such STUPID REMARKS, sorry wolf mod fella but you kinda make me sick to my stomach,you dont have a fricken clue about what it takes to run dogs, it isnt exceptable for a dog to get killed while running his quarry and its my fault for putting them in a bad situation, so therefore i will protect them as i would my kids, so do think it would be ok if your bird dog gets picked off by a wolf??? :dunno:
Thanks. 8)
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 29, 2011, 07:32:28 AM
Post by: Special T on April 29, 2011, 07:56:29 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 29, 2011, 08:02:07 AM
Post by: Killmore on April 29, 2011, 08:04:58 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 08:05:23 AM
I don't think the guy is even a hunter, after all his high and mighty talk of being such an ethical thinking hunter, he talks about trespassing and getting away with it by using his military ID.
Because I said we drive around the ranches he seems to think that's the only way I hunt. He can not vision that some hunters may hunt many different ways. Another reason I don't think he is a hunter.
Anyone who has hunted much has learned to hunt many different ways and probably wouldn't try to stir the pot as this guy has, I still say he is just a wolf lover that thinks he knows how nature works. :twocents:
Wolf mod, you can speculate what you want about what wolves eat during other months, but the science says wolves eat 1.4 elk per month. Your wolf groups have pushed the wolf issue to far, you have alienated vast numbers of people against wolves and now it is all backfiring. Wolves are going to managed more heavily in Idaho than if you would have backed off a few years ago when the target was met. You lose.... :chuckle:
Why don't you step up and admit you aren't a hunter or show us some proof you do hunt? Then if you are a hunter, I would like an explanation of why you think it is OK to trespass on private property. :twocents:
I agree Specail T, WaCoyote has a little different views on wolves than I do, but we agree on many other things. We get along just fine and I greatly respect his opinion. There are others on the forum who want wolves in this state and they are entitled to their opinion as much as myself or anyone else, but they don't throw a bunch of insults at 90% of the hunters as this guy has done and then turn around and brag about trespassing and using military ID to get off.
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 08:18:02 AM
But after watching the fiasco in Idaho, I am opposed to any more wolves anywhere because I can see exactly what the wolf groups plan is for Washington and the whole country. The wolf groups are creating the anti-wolf movement with their poor judgement. :twocents:
Post by: luvtohnt on April 29, 2011, 08:30:50 AM
Wolf mod, you can speculate what you want about what wolves eat during other months, but the science says wolves eat 1.4 elk per month. Your wolf groups have pushed the wolf issue to far, you have alienated vast numbers of people against wolves and now it is all backfiring. Wolves are going to managed more heavily in Idaho than if you would have backed off a few years ago when the target was met. You lose.... :chuckle:
That figure comes from Yellowstone and is only in the winter months when wolves are in large packs and easy to locate. There have been no real studies of predation in the summer because the wolves break up into small packs and are nearly impossible to locate within the park. There is speculation that the harvest numbers drop drastically in the non-snow months, because the elk are healthier and able to fend off the smaller packs. This comes directly from the book Decade of The Wolf written by Douglas Smith the leader of the wolf project in Yellowstone. Something I think a lot of you guys on here would enjoy reading.
Brandon
Post by: mulehunter on April 29, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
WOLFMOD. :ban:
Mulehunter. :)
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 09:40:06 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 09:51:07 AM
Wolf mod, you can speculate what you want about what wolves eat during other months, but the science says wolves eat 1.4 elk per month. Your wolf groups have pushed the wolf issue to far, you have alienated vast numbers of people against wolves and now it is all backfiring. Wolves are going to managed more heavily in Idaho than if you would have backed off a few years ago when the target was met. You lose.... :chuckle:
That figure comes from Yellowstone and is only in the winter months when wolves are in large packs and easy to locate. There have been no real studies of predation in the summer because the wolves break up into small packs and are nearly impossible to locate within the park. There is speculation that the harvest numbers drop drastically in the non-snow months, because the elk are healthier and able to fend off the smaller packs. This comes directly from the book Decade of The Wolf written by Douglas Smith the leader of the wolf project in Yellowstone. Something I think a lot of you guys on here would enjoy reading.
Brandon
I appreciate your comment Brandon but "speculation" is exactly that, speculation. I see no proof to substantiate your claim that 1.4 elk being eaten only occurs in the winter months. :twocents:
I would be willing to "speculate" that the number incresases in the summer to 3 or 4+ elk per month after the calvs are born! :yike:
I would be willing to "speculate" that the elk in the Lolo zone would substantiate how many elk wolves eat if they could talk. :chuckle:
Until another study shows that wolves do not eat 1.4 elk per month, that seems to be "the best available science". That is the proper and politically correct term I might add. Fact, it's really unknown if wolves eat less elk or very likely more elk per month in other times of the year. :yike:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 29, 2011, 11:26:33 AM
When I push for habitat restoration and protection I don't mean planting a few trees or pulling weeds when you see them. We need to think bigger- like responsible timber harvest techniques, broad weed control plans, increased fire presence in the forest... those bigger picture habitat changes are necessary if we want to support robust populations of deer/elk and maintain a viable wolf population (and let's face it (like it or not) wolves are going to be a part of the landscape in Washington for a while).
Little Dave- you mention the economics behind hunting/birding/wildlife. I agree that the inflated numbers that our state feeds us about how big of an industry wildlife viewing is garbage. My guess is that they have a lousy survey model and ask lame questions that they can predict the answer to. I don't expect hunters to cough up money to their local weed board or forest service office, but a letter, visit, or phone call to people that make decisions about management objectives and outcomes might be a good start. I also suggest joining groups that focus on habitat protection/restoration. RMEF, DU, BHA, NEWFC are some that I am a part of and that I think are interested in protecting hunting and habitat requirements for wildlife.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 29, 2011, 11:33:03 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 11:41:31 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 29, 2011, 11:51:44 AM
I think logging is our friend, since it was curtailed in many areas the game populations have declined. Granted it helps when done properly, but logging is our friend.I agree that logging produces outstanding browse and cover, but I would like to see a lot more responsible practices. Like: seeding an area after the job is done to prevent massive weed infestations and erosion, restoring unnessasary roads, cleaning up some of the suspended logs and fuel left over after a cut, and leaving enough trees that keep the next big wind from blowing everything down.
We need logging and wood products, but we need to do things right too.
Post by: jackmaster on April 29, 2011, 12:17:35 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2011, 12:21:38 PM
I agree it's a good idea to remove a short section of the "new" roads created for logging. No sense wasting money erasing the whole roadway where there is no access to it, it will grow in anyway. Eventually those roads will need used again in future years when logging occurs again, it's cheaper to cut them out than have to completely rebuild them too. :twocents:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 29, 2011, 12:22:31 PM
Post by: Special T on April 29, 2011, 12:29:17 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 29, 2011, 12:36:41 PM
Post by: Special T on April 29, 2011, 12:39:47 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on April 29, 2011, 12:51:39 PM
The study was conducted during late March/early April, when elk are arguably at there most vulnerable. It would be interesting to see numbers of successful elk kills by wolves in June-August. I would guess that it's much lower than the 1.4/mth/wolf. Really it doesn't matter though. 8500 elk isn't even 10% of the state population so it's not too big of a deal anyway. Have fun "hunting" those private ranches. You should bring some of the disabled folk w/ you. Personally I like road hunters (keeps them outta the woods), but they do put hunters in a bad light. Oh well.March/April........wonder how many were killed unnecessarily for the wolf "thrill of the kill". It happens ya know......
While hunting mule deer out of Maupin, Oregon, my brother and I accidentally hiked onto a private ranch. It was awesome. Saw 8 monster mullies and I shot a decent 4 pointer there. unfortunately we came back the next day to fill my brother's tag and the land owner was there while my brother was about to shoot a wall hanger buck lol. He threatened to have us arrested. Luckily my military ID helped get out of that situation. Not really hunting though, more paying to shoot. It was along the Deschutes river with tasty alfalfa fields nearby that the deer could not resist :drool:
At the rate Idaho is going, 8500 will be 10% very soon. It's almost there now.
As far as your Oregon incident.
Call it an accident all you want. It's your responsibility to know where you are at. Accident is a lame excuse. He should have had you and your brother arrested. You deserved it. Nice use of your military ID, lucky for you the land owner had a soft spot for your weak use of a trump card.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 29, 2011, 01:42:49 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 29, 2011, 08:48:36 PM
All my should I ?? O.K I will ...one time I shot a 3 point whitetail on dept. land in Winthrop after I shot it two people coming running at me screaming I shot a doe .. he pulls out his pistol and holds be at gun point .. waiting for a warden to show after he said he called them .. long story short No I DID NOT SHOOT A DOE and after an hour of no warden coming he peels out with his wife .. I load my deer and header home .. its now about 10 pm at night as I come over the pass I see lights flashing everywhere .. I am like well thats for me , a road block ... as they end up waving me by I see the two idiots who turned me in for shooting a doe spread out over the sheriffs hood... What the hell is going on here ? as I get to the next corner there are more lights and this time they pull me over . Two wardens .. they ask me where this doe was and I said tied to the 4 wheeler.. ( they could not see its head ) so they walk to the back of the truck pick up its head and said this is no doe I said no sheet !!! He pulls out his cig and lights it up and says why did they get me out of bed for this sheet ? So now I ask what was up back there ? they said all dont worry they are going to jail because they just shot the machinical DEER WE HAD SET UP .. I said your kidding me and they said john go home and go to sleep . I said wait a minute those dumb ------ are the ones who turned me in for shooting a doe ...they said what ... and after all this happens I FOUND OUT THEY WERE STATIONED ON WHIDBEY ISLAND .... MILITARY WEAPONS AND ALL .. HOW IS THAT ONE ... WANT TO HEAR MORE STORIES LET ME KNOW ..HAHAHAHAWell heck no one read my story ...... geeeeeez
Post by: Special T on April 29, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
Post by: bearpaw on January 23, 2014, 09:28:26 PM
Post by: KFhunter on January 23, 2014, 09:40:05 PM
I watched a good five minutes hoping to see what had it so riled up, but I didn't.
Post by: Smossy on January 23, 2014, 09:45:05 PM
You get my drift.
Post by: syoungs on January 23, 2014, 09:53:30 PM
Post by: bearpaw on January 23, 2014, 10:05:30 PM
Post by: bowhunterwa87 on January 23, 2014, 10:06:31 PM
Post by: WaSouthpaw on February 04, 2014, 05:06:52 AM
Do they go to the game commission and ask for a special permit?
Do they radio their Captain and ask for permission to shoot?
Just wondering...? :dunno:
(actually I don't wonder - neither do you-all - just pissed off)
Post by: bearpaw on February 04, 2014, 11:03:32 AM
Looking at these trail cam pic's of that cow elk being chased and harassed by that small band of wolves makes me wonder what does the WDFW do when "unattended" (wild) domestic dogs chase and/or harass deer and elk?
Do they go to the game commission and ask for a special permit?
Do they radio their Captain and ask for permission to shoot?
Just wondering...? :dunno:
(actually I don't wonder - neither do you-all - just pissed off)
I'm pretty sure officers can destroy dogs that are harassing wildlife.
Post by: WaSouthpaw on February 04, 2014, 11:19:38 AM
I'm pretty sure officers can destroy dogs that are harassing wildlife.
no further comments from this peanut gallery....
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 04, 2014, 11:58:25 AM
After reading "some" of this thread and some of the arguments people have made. I think controlled hunts should be a good answer. Not pure elimination but maybe 1 wolf per person per year, or at-least special draws. I don't think the populations are thick enough to really do 1 per person per year, but maybe 10-20 tags issued out yearly to help keep the numbers in check.
You get my drift.
You could have a 3/day limit and they wouldn't be all killed off.
Post by: Bordercop on February 04, 2014, 12:55:01 PM
Now wolfmod you stated that you went on to private property to hunt without permission, (a crime). Then when the land owner confronted you, you pull out your military ID? You have no Respect for the land owner trespassing on to his/her property. No Honor to use your military ID to get yourself out of a jam and play the sympathy card. Certainly I will question your Integrity like bearpaw and others, I see right through you. I continue to live by these values and nothing upsets me more than someone claiming they are a veteran and brags about this kind of behavior!
Now I don't know who you are and you may have served and I thank you for your service but that gives you no excuse to break the law. Second coming to this forum one needs to be respectful when one is a newcomer. Someone who jumps in as you did will be labeled as suspect epically as inflammatory that you response was. Thank you bearpaw for your comments, they were right on the mark!
OK I'm done I feel better now.
Post by: KFhunter on February 04, 2014, 03:55:12 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 04, 2014, 04:42:13 PM
wolf mod was banned a long time ago
He's not banned.
:dunno:
Post by: WSU on February 04, 2014, 04:53:59 PM
Post by: KFhunter on February 04, 2014, 04:56:11 PM
carry on :tup:
Post by: CAMPMEAT on February 04, 2014, 05:04:50 PM
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but aren't elk supposed to kill elk for food? I view it as nature taking it's course and happy to see that it can still happen in this day n' age...
Also, if you are going to chase predators around w/ dogs you should be aware of the consequences...Geez dude.
Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names.
Thanks.
" Sorry, just get annoyed by clueless roadhunters tarnishing hunters' names " ..........you are an idiot. Plain and simple. :stup: :mor:
Post by: sagewalker on February 04, 2014, 05:10:33 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on February 04, 2014, 05:39:00 PM
Go get um!!
........tiger !!
Post by: sagewalker on February 04, 2014, 06:07:03 PM
Go get um!!
........tiger !!
:yeah:
Post by: bearpaw on February 09, 2014, 12:24:34 AM
Did anyone doubt that wolves eat elk? I was under the impression that wolves eating elk was an accepted fact.
There are those who try to say that wolves do not impact elk, moose, deer, I just like to keep them corrected, nothing like showing picture proof. :tup:
Post by: Dan-o on February 09, 2014, 02:27:53 AM
She was obviously sick/injured/old, or the wolves wouldn't be following her like that.
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 20, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
Wow, what a series of pics! - change is coming soon :bfg:
Thanks Bearpaw
This is kind of sad to look back and think what some of us thought was going to change for the better - almost 3 years ago.