Post by: Goomsba on July 01, 2011, 04:58:11 PM
By K.C. Mehaffey
World staff writer
Friday, July 1, 2011
SPOKANE — Twisp family members accused of illegally killing endangered wolves from the Methow Valley’s Lookout Pack and attempting to smuggle one of the pelts to Canada can continue to have guns and hunt while their case is pending, a judge ruled Wednesday.
Bill White and his son, Tom, were indicted June 7, charged with poaching at least two wolves from the state’s first confirmed wolf pack in nearly 70 years. Erin White, Tom White’s wife, is accused of attempting to smuggle one of the pelts to Canada.
All three pleaded not guilty in U.S. District Court Wednesday.
Federal prosecutors did not ask the court to keep any of the Whites in jail until their trial, which was scheduled for Sept. 6, according to court documents.
But prosecutors did ask Judge Cynthia Imbrogno to prevent them from possessing firearms, and from hunting.
Inbrogno declined, and instead set standard conditions for their release, specifically noting that the Whites are allowed to have guns and to hunt, but may not take firearms across state lines. They also may not travel outside of the country without prior permission from the court.
Post by: poulsbo on July 02, 2011, 09:39:36 AM
Post by: Dave Workman on July 05, 2011, 07:30:30 AM
These people should have fund set up for thier defense.
What if they are guilty?
Post by: Special T on July 05, 2011, 03:25:03 PM
Post by: Okano-gun on July 05, 2011, 05:10:47 PM
Post by: Machias on July 05, 2011, 09:22:46 PM
I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
Do you have a link to this? Thanks
Post by: danderson on July 06, 2011, 07:16:40 AM
Post by: Houndhunter on July 06, 2011, 12:20:40 PM
Post by: Machias on July 06, 2011, 12:32:17 PM
I am glad to see that bitch judge was shut down, she sounds completely one sided
Can you elaborate? I'm not familiar with her or what has been going on? Thanks
Post by: Houndhunter on July 06, 2011, 12:59:27 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on July 06, 2011, 01:00:49 PM
I misread that, I see it was her that allowed them to keep their guns and hunt. Props to her
Yeah, I was gonna say, she's the one who shut down the feds trying to deny gun rights.
Post by: Okano-gun on July 06, 2011, 05:48:36 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 06, 2011, 08:28:32 PM
I misread that, I see it was her that allowed them to keep their guns and hunt. Props to her:yeah:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 06, 2011, 08:30:36 PM
Post by: Machias on July 07, 2011, 05:06:20 PM
I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
As I suspected this is completely false. Please don't spread false rumors about folks.
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 07, 2011, 06:25:57 PM
we should put one together for them!!These people should have fund set up for thier defense.
What if they are guilty?
Post by: Okano-gun on July 07, 2011, 08:58:39 PM
I have no reason to spread false rumors. This is not false, a very credible enforcement officer told me this. It will all come out in the wash.I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
As I suspected this is completely false. Please don't spread false rumors about folks.
Post by: pianoman9701 on July 08, 2011, 07:14:19 AM
we should put one together for them!!These people should have fund set up for thier defense.
What if they are guilty?
Sorry, if what's been charged against them is true, including the poaching in Canada, I have no interest in helping poachers. The wolf pelt mailings are perhaps the stupidest acts someone could have committed, especially with all the bad press we hunters are getting on this issue. They've made it exponentially more difficult for us in the eyes of a vast majority of WA voters who don't hunt.
Post by: Heartsblood on July 08, 2011, 10:04:07 AM
Sorry, if what's been charged against them is true, including the poaching in Canada, I have no interest in helping poachers. The wolf pelt mailings are perhaps the stupidest acts someone could have committed, especially with all the bad press we hunters are getting on this issue. They've made it exponentially more difficult for us in the eyes of a vast majority of WA voters who don't hunt.
:yeah: Agreed. This does not help the perception that non-hunters already often have of us.
Even if the Whites honestly thought they were coyotes or whatever (which seems dubious), if I take a wild Steelhead from the wrong river because I thought it was a hatchery fish, if I shoot a two-point when it's 3 points or better, if I shoot a Jenny in the spring, it's my fault. Period. Know your target and know your regs. Especially if it looks somehow similar to an animal that's on an endagered list....
But yes, the so called "bloody package" was an epic fail of intelligence. That's really gotta put hunters in a good light..... :bash:
Still, to rush in to support them for their actions seems like it could only send a message to those that already have a problem with hunters. It might convey a message like - "We don't care if the law was broken. We should be allowed to hunt anything we want, whenever we want! And we support those who do!"
I dunno about that stance....it seems a slippery slope. I think we need to have solidarity as a community. But I believ that solidarity needs to lean heavily towards the responsibilty side of things, not the other way around.
My buck fiddy.
Post by: Machias on July 08, 2011, 12:10:15 PM
I have no reason to spread false rumors. This is not false, a very credible enforcement officer told me this. It will all come out in the wash.I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
As I suspected this is completely false. Please don't spread false rumors about folks.
That's funny, they must not have told the White's. I know for a FACT they have not plead guilty to anything, your LEO friend is full of *censored*.
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2011, 12:18:45 PM
I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
As I suspected this is completely false. Please don't spread false rumors about folks.
Fred...
Did you read the pdf of the White's indictment that's attached to one of the prior posts?
Counts 8,9,10 and 11....
Post by: Machias on July 08, 2011, 12:35:38 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2011, 12:37:13 PM
Nope, where is it?
Reply #11. I tried to copy and paste the text but I can't seem to figure it out.
Post by: Machias on July 08, 2011, 12:49:03 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2011, 12:56:40 PM
:dunno:
Post by: Goomsba on July 08, 2011, 02:13:49 PM
That's funny, they must not have told the White's. I know for a FACT they have not plead guilty to anything, your LEO friend is full of *censored*.
Having going up in the Methow that statement has a lot of truth to it. I' know the White's, Bill was my hunters ed instructor. I also took some class's he taught in high school in Methow Valley as a classroom. But I'll hold my judgment till the dust settles..
Post by: danderson on July 08, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
Post by: bearpaw on July 08, 2011, 10:44:17 PM
I don't know any of the details about the case against Whites, only what I have read like the rest of you. But, what if the Whites found those wolves dead along the highway or what if they found them dead from some other cause? Shipping a dead wolf that was found dead is a lot different than shooting a wolf and shipping it. What if they were protecting livestock, many ranchers don't even know you can't shoot wolves that are attacking your livestock. Then because the Whites didn't want to see the hides go to waste they decided to ship them to Canada. What if those wolves were killed in Canada on a previous moose hunt and they just decided to have them tanned? I'm not saying that any of this happened, but they are certainly possibilities.
I really have no idea what happened, but there is a reason our system was set up so that you are innocent until proven guilty. I knew the Whites years ago when they lived near Colville. The father is the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, the kids were young but well mannered, the family was respected and they were the family that everyone wants next door for neighbors.
I have heard about the other alledged charges, but unless you know all the facts, those could just be drummed up charges to make the Whites look bad. Remember the OJ case, the cops wanted him so bad they faked the evidence. The feds (BATF) was recently caught allowing firearms to be sold to Mexican drug cartels. That may not have ever surfaced if some of the same guns weren't used to kill a border agent. The USFWS stold millions from the Pittman/Robertson fund and that money was used to introduce wolves in Idaho, that would not have been exposed if it wasn't for Jim Beers sacrificing his job to testify before congress. In Idaho, the F&G illegally signed a deal with the USFWS to introduce those wolves after the state legislature voted against allowing wolves to be introduced. There has been a lot of questionable and outright illegal actions taken by government agencies to put wolves in the NW.
Right now the state of Washington is using every means to make it sound like more wolves are needed in Washington. I think the right people and the media would readily hype up the case against the Whites to further their cause of getting more wolves in Washington. Bottom line, until the facts are proven in court, the Whites are innocent. I will be honest too, I hope they are innocent because they are good people as far as I have ever known.
Quote
One thing that bothers me on this whole bloody package story is that hides dont have any blood on them, at least any hides that I have ever seen, that story doesnt pass the smell test.
Good point danderson, I would agree, a coyote skin doesn't bleed all over, a body bleeds but skins do not, I have handled plenty of coyote and many other skins so I know this to be a fact. So I have serious doubts about the truthfulness of the alledged bleeding evidence, that does not sound right at all. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on July 11, 2011, 02:28:25 PM
Whether there was blood dripping from a box or just a blood stained box... There doesn't seem to be any debating the fact that he tried to ship a wolf and/or wolf parts to Canada.
More media and I know that not everything in the media is true...but man, these guys have got a lot of bad following them around. There's a photo claiming it is one of the White's with a dead wolf.
http://nwsportsmanmag.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/a-pattern-of-behavior-in-white-wolf-case/ (http://nwsportsmanmag.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/a-pattern-of-behavior-in-white-wolf-case/)
Post by: Special T on July 11, 2011, 04:51:58 PM
Post by: bearpaw on July 11, 2011, 06:37:30 PM
If it turns out that they were trying to protect their cattle or sheep, or something like that, then I think that should be taken into consideration with the wolf charges, Oregon just made it legal to protect your livestock if attacked by wolves and I think Idaho and MT have provisions for that too. :twocents:
Post by: Goomsba on July 11, 2011, 09:08:39 PM
Our local hound club used to hold field trials every summer, Bill and his kids always helped out a lot and were very well liked. There's no doubt they are in deep trouble over the wolves, but the White's are also being labeled as deer and moose poachers. Did they kill those animals out of season, or was it just a technicality they messed up on, I don't know, but I think there is a lot of difference between intentionally shooting something out of season and screwing up up on a technicality? I still think machias made a good point, people are innocent until proven guilty in this country.:yeah:
If it turns out that they were trying to protect their cattle or sheep, or something like that, then I think that should be taken into consideration with the wolf charges, Oregon just made it legal to protect your livestock if attacked by wolves and I think Idaho and MT have provisions for that too. :twocents:
Post by: Okano-gun on April 04, 2012, 11:03:52 PM
Twisp man pleads guilty in wolf killing caseI have no reason to spread false rumors. This is not false, a very credible enforcement officer told me this. It will all come out in the wash.I wonder how they pled on the non wolf charges? Bill White already pled guilty in Canada to poaching a moose and illegal export of the moose and a whitetail into the U.S. (the charges the cannucks hung on him).
As I suspected this is completely false. Please don't spread false rumors about folks.
That's funny, they must not have told the White's. I know for a FACT they have not plead guilty to anything, your LEO friend is full of *censored*.
Thomas ClouseThe Spokesman-Review
Share66
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Tags:endangered speciesJudge Frem NielsenMethow ValleyTimothy OhmsTwispWilliam D. Whitewolf
A Twisp man pleaded guilty Wednesday to conspiring to kill a protected wolf and send its pelt to a friend in Canada in return for the friend’s help in illegally killing a moose.
Wearing a leather vest and cowboy hat, William D. White, 62, pleaded guilty in federal court to the charges of conspiracy to take an endangered species, conspiracy to transport endangered species and unlawful importation of wildlife. The importation charge stemmed from the moose, which White brought back to the Methow Valley from Canada along with a whitetail deer.
As part of the federal plea, White also agreed to plead guilty to two state charges, including hunting bears with a dog.
White declined comment after the plea before U.S. District Court Judge Frem Nielsen, but White’s attorney, Bevan Maxey, said his client was simply trying to protect his livestock when he conspired with his son, Tom D. White, to kill two wolves from Washington’s first documented wolf pack.
“I think the issues point out the inherent difficulties livestock owners are presented with relating to wolves,” Maxey said. “It’s clear the interest of government … differs depending on where you live.”
He was alluding to the fact that neighboring Idaho allows wolf hunting, in which 376 wolves have been killed through hunting or trapping as part of the most recent season.
But Assistant U.S. Attorney Timothy Ohms said the investigation showed that White, and his family, engaged in a pattern of illegal game hunting.
According to the court files, the case began in December 2008 when a FedEx worker reported to Omak police a package that was seeping blood. The investigation revealed that it was a wolf pelt being sent to a man in Alberta, Canada.
The investigation revealed that Tom White had killed the wolf and his wife had shipped the package, Ohms said. Charges against Tom White and his wife are pending.
A search warrant found emails talking about the eradication of wolves using traps and poison. Also found were photographs that showed an image on Dec. 13, 2008, with a different wolf that Tom White had killed.
Previous to the wolf kills, William White had traveled to hunt in Alberta, where he hunted illegally on a local man’s tag. White said he wasn’t sure if he killed the moose in question, but told Judge Nielsen that he shot at the moose and intended to kill it. He then returned back to Twisp with the moose and a whitetail deer.
Ohms said Erin White was sending the wolf pelt back to the hunting buddy in Canada who had helped William White get the moose.
In addition to state and federal charges, William White also pleaded guilty to two hunting violations in Canada. As part of the overall agreement, White will be fined $38,500 and lose possession of a trap, two guns and any remaining wolf parts in his possession. Although he faced as many as three years in prison, the plea agreement calls for a sentence of three years supervised release.
Nielsen scheduled White’s sentencing for July 11. But that may not be the end. Ohms said prosecutors are reserving the right to file additional charges, because Ohms said the search warrant also found evidence of eagle parts in White’s possession
I don't spread false rumors about folks, all coming out in the wash!
Post by: Machias on April 04, 2012, 11:27:04 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 05, 2012, 02:27:35 AM
I still question exactly what the White's actually did and exactly how bad it was what ever they did do?
Quote
As part of the federal plea, White also agreed to plead guilty to two state charges, including hunting bears with a dog.
White declined comment after the plea before U.S. District Court Judge Frem Nielsen, but White’s attorney, Bevan Maxey, said his client was simply trying to protect his livestock when he conspired with his son, Tom D. White, to kill two wolves from Washington’s first documented wolf pack.
“I think the issues point out the inherent difficulties livestock owners are presented with relating to wolves,” Maxey said. “It’s clear the interest of government … differs depending on where you live.”
White made an agreement to plea guilty as stated in the story. A plea is often made to get a case settled so people can get on with their lives. I can not see by this story that the Whites were proven to not be protecting their property as they claim.
If Bill White was protecting his livestock he was doing very little wrong in many rural people's eyes if he killed those wolves to protect his livestock. I would not hold the White's any more at fault for protecting their livestock than I would if they had shot a burglar breaking into their home. I feel they should have the right to protect themselves and their property. Some states still have a law on their books for hanging horse theives, so I hope people can see what I am trying to explain.
The story also stated that White plead guilty to hunting bear with hounds. I have no idea what really happened, but I do know that bear also kill livestock and I have to wonder if that is what happened with the bear, White may have been simply protecting his livestock.
To put things in a more realistic light, if eastern Washington wasn't legally bound and gagged by a more populous western Washington, we would likely be legally shooting wolves and hunting bear with hounds in eastern Washington just as they do in Idaho. I'm not saying that White did the right thing or that he didn't use poor judgement in regards to following the law, but I think his attorney did a pretty good job of explaining their situation and the poor laws that are being forced on eastern Washington by more populous western Washington urban voters.
I know the White's and as I stated before they are extremely good people, I would still welcome them as my neighbors, they would likely be far better neighbors to have than many of their accusers. :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on April 05, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote
I know the White's and as I stated before they are extremely good people, I would still welcome them as my neighbors, they would likely be far better neighbors to have than many of their accusers
A-men. I'd share a pot of coffee, a campfire, whatever with Bill. He's good people in my book, no matter what the media makes him out to look like. I'm glad to know him.
Post by: bearpaw on April 05, 2012, 02:54:45 AM
I was at the Stevens County Republican caucus and introduced an amendment to the Stevens County republican platform staing that the county is opposed to the Washington wolf plan and opposed to having any wolves in Washington. There were over two hundred delegates and I only heard two people opposed when the vote was taken.
I have spoken with all three Stevens County commissioners and they are all opposed to wolves being forced into our county.
The feds have delisted wolves in a good portion of eastern Washington, if we didn't have a wolf plan forced upon us by a western Washington agency that bows to animal preservationist organizations, we would likely be able to legally protect our livestock against predators (wolves or bear, with or without hounds) and the Whites may not have even violated a law.
I am not saying the White's did the right thing or that they used good judgement, obviously the facts point to the contrary. However, many Washington residents are more concerned about the protection of property rights and self defense of property than others, and that certainly puts people like the White's and other livestock producers in a precarious situation. There are three cattlemen in Stevens County who are currently missing a total of 41 head of cattle which are thought to be losses to wolves.
You would have had a hard time finding a jury in Stevens County or in Ferry, Pend Orielle, or Okanogan County that would have convicted Bill White.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 05, 2012, 05:52:05 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 05, 2012, 07:15:34 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 05, 2012, 07:36:35 AM
It sounds like Bill White has made a long habit of poaching and hunting illegally. I'm glad the case is settled and we can move on with legal wolf management.
I don't know the Whites or their situation. What disturbs me about this report and seems at first glance the most telling, besides the wolf killings and related charges, is that they poached animals in Canada and transported them into the US, contrary to state and federal law, and international agreements with Canada. They also hunted bears with hounds without a permit to do so. In addition, if the report that they're in possession of eagle parts is true, I'm inclined to think that besides just being concerned for their livestock and livelihood, they have no respect for any kind of wildlife law/regulation with which they disagree. I do understand that eagles can kill livestock.
I hate the fact that we can't shoot wolves and I have even less of a stake in it than someone who owns livestock. I hate the fact that we can't hunt bears or cougars with dogs or bait because their populations are out of balance and need to be controlled. But, if we all completely ignored the law and did whatever we felt was right in our own mind, it would lead to anarchy. Only from what I've read and with no personal experience it appears the Whites feel they're above the law. I'm aware of the fact that I may be missing quite a lot of information.
Post by: Machias on April 05, 2012, 08:17:09 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 05, 2012, 08:41:44 AM
I'm not going to cast any stones towards the Whites, there's plenty of folks who will gladly being tossing as many hate filled stones as they can. (That is not directed at Bart or Pianoman). Did they make mistakes, we all agree, including Bill, that they made mistakes. Long line of poaching? Above the law? I don't think that's the case, but I understand why you think so. One point I will convey, does either of you have something you are extremely passionate about? Something that was deeply part of your life for 40 to 50 years? Now imagine if one day it was taken away by a bunch of folks who have no clue about those passions. Heck they have no clue at all about wildlife management, tradition, anything that involves our way of life. I'm not just talking about a hobby you really like to do occasionally, I'm talking about something that runs through every fiber of your body. Well that is hound hunting and trapping to alot of guys and I know Bill has been a houndsmen his whole life. Running bears and lions illegally.........nope I'm not tossing any stones at the man.
I understand your points and have not worn his shoes, or your, Fred. :tup:
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 07:44:21 PM
Post by: seth30 on April 05, 2012, 07:52:43 PM
Personal feelings aside, evidence has shown in that report that he was a habitual poacher. Wolf, bear, moose AND eagle? Sorry, but this guy deserves whatever he gets for breaking laws that he's suppossed to be up-holding at hunters ed classes. I'm all for standing up for your own and don't knock you guys for standing behind your friend. It shows how loyal you are to a friend. But the fact remains, he didn't make just one mistake. He made alot of mistakes over a period of time, deliberately. Email's showing conspiring to poison wolves? Yeah, shows what he thinks of the law that he's chosen to instill in young hunters minds.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 08:33:34 PM
MS
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 08:54:45 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 08:57:14 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2012, 09:00:21 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:01:55 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:02:16 PM
MS
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:03:35 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:05:06 PM
MS
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:05:53 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
Yup! Were working on de listing wolves! :tup:
Thats what your suppossed to do, but this case and any more in the future is only going to make it harder for you.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:07:47 PM
Yup! Were working on de listing wolves! :tup:
Thats what your suppossed to do, but this case and any more in the future is only going to make it harder for you.
I can agree to that to an extent. This stuff only fuels the fires for the antis.
MS
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2012, 09:08:07 PM
Yup! Were working on de listing wolves! :tup:
:yeah:
Soon the state will be selling wolf tags! :IBCOOL:
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:10:25 PM
Yup! Were working on de listing wolves! :tup:
Thats what your suppossed to do, but this case and any more in the future is only going to make it harder for you.
I can agree to that to an extent. This stuff only fuels the fires for the antis.
MS
Which is why hunter need to stop trying to take matters into their own hands. I mean, conspiracy to poison???!!! Did he not realize how many animals, ungulates included, he would have killed? The poison leaves the animal, stays in the soil, and the grass maintains it in their blades, which ungulates eat. What an asswhole!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 05, 2012, 09:13:11 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 05, 2012, 09:14:07 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2012, 09:15:05 PM
quote ....soon the state will be selling wolf tags ..... :yeah: and I want one :tup: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I wonder if they'll have a draw for multi-season wolf tags. If so, I'll be in!
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:15:52 PM
Depends on the types of poison. Some kind will kill the creatures that feed on the carcass. Others will dilute after killing the wolf and pose little to no threat to the animals/plants nearby.
C'mon. You know as well as anyone else they woulda gone for the big guns with strychenine.
And the carcass is usually never picked up, so many animals that feed die, then as the carcass depletes, it is absorbed by the earth.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:18:30 PM
quote ....soon the state will be selling wolf tags ..... :yeah: and I want one :tup: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I wonder if they'll have a draw for multi-season wolf tags. If so, I'll be in!
:yeah:
Knowing this state though, with the price they will probably charge I could go Moose hunting in the Yukon :chuckle:
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:19:42 PM
Post by: Curly on April 05, 2012, 09:20:34 PM
The only thing that could save us is the upcoming gov election. If McKenna wins, maybe he will get WDFW to do the right thing....... :tup:
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2012, 09:20:45 PM
Anyone know how much it costs to have a wolf hide tanned?
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:22:09 PM
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:22:24 PM
Really what they need to do is give out free wolf tags with the purchase of any hunting license, and a year around season.
Anyone know how much it costs to have a wolf hide tanned?
The same price as a 75lb coyote :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:23:08 PM
I think it will be a long, long, long time before WDFW will sell wolf tags. The damn wolf lovers will cry and whine so much that the WDFW will cave to the pressure and not allow hunting. We're screwed in this state.
The only thing that could save us is the upcoming gov election. If McKenna wins, maybe he will get WDFW to do the right thing....... :tup:
C'mon, you know that won't happen. politics is all about money, and theres more money in hippies than hunters.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:23:55 PM
And you can't say "Other charges aside...". He commited those acts, you can't ignore that. This is not some innocent getting painted as guilty. He mixed up the paint that has smeared his name.
Ok let me rephrase. Lets say he never committed those other acts. That's what I meant.
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2012, 09:26:02 PM
I think it will be a long, long, long time before WDFW will sell wolf tags. The damn wolf lovers will cry and whine so much that the WDFW will cave to the pressure and not allow hunting. We're screwed in this state.
The only thing that could save us is the upcoming gov election. If McKenna wins, maybe he will get WDFW to do the right thing....... :tup:
C'mon, you know that won't happen. politics is all about money, and theres more money in hippies than hunters.
It's not just hunters who will be supporting Mckenna. It will be everyone who wants the state's economy turned around. Only people who won't vote for him are the ones who want to continue receiving welfare and food stamps.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:26:50 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:27:23 PM
I think it will be a long, long, long time before WDFW will sell wolf tags. The damn wolf lovers will cry and whine so much that the WDFW will cave to the pressure and not allow hunting. We're screwed in this state.
The only thing that could save us is the upcoming gov election. If McKenna wins, maybe he will get WDFW to do the right thing....... :tup:
C'mon, you know that won't happen. politics is all about money, and theres more money in hippies than hunters.
It's not just hunters who will be supporting Mckenna. It will be everyone who wants the state's economy turned around. Only people who won't vote for him are the ones who want to continue receiving welfare and food stamps.
Ok, I will give you that.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:32:34 PM
Ok. Even still, he broke the law when he poached those wolves. He obviously had an ulterior agenda in using them as payment for using a friends tag illegally in another country.
Agreed being specific to this thread although there are far more many reasons for someone to want to eradicate wolves, legally or not. I agree he deserves punishment. Should the same person deserve the same punishment who's livelyhood is being affected? I think no :twocents: I doubt this man made a living selling wolf hides. Now the honest tax paying rancher who is being affected, he deserves the same legal treatment? That is an issue where animal right activists put animals in front of human beings which I think is wrong.
Post by: Curly on April 05, 2012, 09:34:11 PM
:twocents:
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:37:44 PM
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 09:45:13 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:47:32 PM
I'm still not convinced that the White's did all the poaching that is claimed. Just because there was a guilty plea doesn't necessarily mean Mr. White is guilty. What has been reported to the media sounds bad and looks as if he is guilty but maybe he just couldn't afford the attorney fees anymore and wanted to get this over with. :dunno:
:twocents:
Plausable, but unlikely a man of honor would allow his name to be tarnished. If that were the case, i would fight tootah and nail to clear my name of something I didn't do. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to drop his transparent story and just fess up, already? There are too many counts against him to be the case. He's not only up *censored* Creek without a paddle, but his boat is being circle by Jaws. It's only a matter of time at this point...
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:50:45 PM
Also as for your blueberry farmer neighbor, the govt. isn't trying to re establish ungulates.
So he can shoot elk out of season to protect his crops?
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 09:51:56 PM
I'm still not convinced that the White's did all the poaching that is claimed. Just because there was a guilty plea doesn't necessarily mean Mr. White is guilty. What has been reported to the media sounds bad and looks as if he is guilty but maybe he just couldn't afford the attorney fees anymore and wanted to get this over with. :dunno:
:twocents:
Plausable, but unlikely a man of honor would allow his name to be tarnished. If that were the case, i would fight tootah and nail to clear my name of something I didn't do. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to drop his transparent story and just fess up, already? There are too many counts against him to be the case. He's not only up *censored* Creek without a paddle, but his boat is being circle by Jaws. It's only a matter of time at this point...
thanks for that great assumption....
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 09:52:20 PM
MS
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:55:40 PM
How does that relate to my comment? Remember, the wolves were GONE until some hippy thought it would be cool to bring them back.
MS
Naw, it was more than that and you know it. but no need to elaborate. People can do their own reading of how things went.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 05, 2012, 09:56:15 PM
He can probably complain to WDFW to have something worked out---master hunters or even have WDFW shoot the elk.Also as for your blueberry farmer neighbor, the govt. isn't trying to re establish ungulates.
So he can shoot elk out of season to protect his crops?
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 09:56:32 PM
I'm still not convinced that the White's did all the poaching that is claimed. Just because there was a guilty plea doesn't necessarily mean Mr. White is guilty. What has been reported to the media sounds bad and looks as if he is guilty but maybe he just couldn't afford the attorney fees anymore and wanted to get this over with. :dunno:
:twocents:
Plausable, but unlikely a man of honor would allow his name to be tarnished. If that were the case, i would fight tootah and nail to clear my name of something I didn't do. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to drop his transparent story and just fess up, already? There are too many counts against him to be the case. He's not only up *censored* Creek without a paddle, but his boat is being circle by Jaws. It's only a matter of time at this point...
thanks for that great assumption....
Your welcome.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 10:00:36 PM
How does that relate to my comment? Remember, the wolves were GONE until some hippy thought it would be cool to bring them back.
MS
Naw, it was more than that and you know it. but no need to elaborate. People can do their own reading of how things went.
LOL! Didn't mean to strike a nerve but you have to admit, there obviously is a reason why wolves were nearly facing extinction. Well any person who understands logic would.
MS
Post by: ribka on April 05, 2012, 10:01:11 PM
I'm still not convinced that the White's did all the poaching that is claimed. Just because there was a guilty plea doesn't necessarily mean Mr. White is guilty. What has been reported to the media sounds bad and looks as if he is guilty but maybe he just couldn't afford the attorney fees anymore and wanted to get this over with. :dunno:
:twocents:
Plausable, but unlikely a man of honor would allow his name to be tarnished. If that were the case, i would fight tootah and nail to clear my name of something I didn't do. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to drop his transparent story and just fess up, already? There are too many counts against him to be the case. He's not only up *censored* Creek without a paddle, but his boat is being circle by Jaws. It's only a matter of time at this point...
thanks for that great assumption....
Your welcome.
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 10:02:11 PM
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 10:14:05 PM
I actually stopped posting till the news of this man came out, so i cam back to see what you all would say about it, simply put.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 10:17:17 PM
Clearing your name in a court of law can be too costly financially and emotionally for some people. This guy is not 20 years old by the way.I'm still not convinced that the White's did all the poaching that is claimed. Just because there was a guilty plea doesn't necessarily mean Mr. White is guilty. What has been reported to the media sounds bad and looks as if he is guilty but maybe he just couldn't afford the attorney fees anymore and wanted to get this over with. :dunno:
:twocents:
Plausable, but unlikely a man of honor would allow his name to be tarnished. If that were the case, i would fight tootah and nail to clear my name of something I didn't do. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to drop his transparent story and just fess up, already? There are too many counts against him to be the case. He's not only up *censored* Creek without a paddle, but his boat is being circle by Jaws. It's only a matter of time at this point...
thanks for that great assumption....
Your welcome.
That may be, but the evidence still stands no matter what. When i read that report, thats the first thing that came to my mind was that he finally dropped that bullmess excuse of his. I'm a supporter of the West Memphis 3 and am one for innocent until proven guity, but this guy and his family have shown what they think about the law and GOT CAUGHT.
Post by: Machias on April 05, 2012, 10:24:11 PM
I actually stopped posting till the news of this man came out, so i cam back to see what you all would say about it, simply put.
We noticed and it was nice. How about go gloat with your friends on some other site?
Post by: MuleySniper on April 05, 2012, 10:30:01 PM
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 10:59:30 PM
You deny the most of the accusations of you being an anti. In the meantime the majority of your posts come off as pro wolf. Why wouldn't people assume you are pro wolf/anti hunting? Some people do not understand playing devils advocate which is fine. In your circumstance I don't think you are playing devils advocate. I feel you make all of your statements in favor of the wolf using the laws as the majority of your reasoning. Any true outdoor sportsman knows the wolf will do no good to our industry. You know you will never persuade even a minute population of this website. Remember, this IS a hunting website, not a counseling session. After trying to give you the benefit of the doubt I find you are barking up the wrong tree:twocents::yeah: i think humanure obviously wasnt taught the saying...."sometimes it is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt"....people like him was how that saying got started.....
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:16:41 PM
Why is it so hard to accept that someone is both pro-wolf and pro-hunting? It's called having a mind of your own to make decisions on what you think is right.
Post by: Swiftkid on April 05, 2012, 11:34:59 PM
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 11:39:12 PM
That may be, but you gotta admit, I livin up your day!cuz its like being pro military and anti guns...it doesnt mix! if you had as many posts about you actually doing something with hunting instead of just arguing about stupid freakin wolves that no one wants here except you and tree huggers....your the only hunter i have ever heard of that is obsessed with those over grown coyotes....
Why is it so hard to accept that someone is both pro-wolf and pro-hunting? It's called having a mind of your own to make decisions on what you think is right.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:44:50 PM
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 11:46:48 PM
Everyone on here hates poachers but as soon as you talk about killing wolves people want to set up a defense fund for them...isn't this also classified as poaching? I hate wolves just as much as everyone on here but laws are laws...and i don't care how reputable or good these people are at the end of the day if they plead guilty to killing wolves they are poachers. I never thought i'd see HW members saying that they'd "share a pot of coffee" with a poacher but i guess we can see where the rubber hits the road.hes only a poacher according to the government...they way i see it, hes doing the wildlife in washington a favor......i think the hunters and sportsman of washington of just tired of listening to the wdfw since the wdfw doesnt listen to us....
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:51:06 PM
Everyone on here hates poachers but as soon as you talk about killing wolves people want to set up a defense fund for them...isn't this also classified as poaching? I hate wolves just as much as everyone on here but laws are laws...and i don't care how reputable or good these people are at the end of the day if they plead guilty to killing wolves they are poachers. I never thought i'd see HW members saying that they'd "share a pot of coffee" with a poacher but i guess we can see where the rubber hits the road.hes only a poacher according to the government...they way i see it, hes doing the wildlife in washington a favor......i think the hunters and sportsman of washington of just tired of listening to the wdfw since the wdfw doesnt listen to us....
Therefore, you support criminal acts of vigilantism? Nice. Good luck being taken seriously, and thanks for making all hunters look like selfish, non-caring asswholes. Hope your proud.
It's statements like that thats really going to ruin it for hunters fighting for their priviledges.
He's a poacher by law, and he's a poacher by ethics. He defied the law he's suppossed to have upheld and shamed the tradition and shows an anarchy in his own tradition. He's nothing more than a common criminal.
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 11:53:07 PM
Well, I've heard plenty hunters in person say many things about wolves, and they weren't always negative. Some are humble and feel it is not their decision to decide what animal belongs or not. They trust the land knows what to do. Others accept it as a challenge to honed ones skills and become a better hunter in competition. Others throw tissy fits while they scream and cry on the floor until they get what they demand.omg....now your plain full of sh**! lol you are not a hunter and its stupid obvious....good luck with your mission in telling us how great over grown coyotes are for our wildlife and future of hunting!! haha im gonna go throw myself on the floor and cry myself to sleep :chuckle:
Post by: Swiftkid on April 05, 2012, 11:53:58 PM
Post by: predatorpro on April 05, 2012, 11:55:09 PM
lol good try.... :chuckle: :chuckle: your gonna have to do better than that pal! keep tryinEveryone on here hates poachers but as soon as you talk about killing wolves people want to set up a defense fund for them...isn't this also classified as poaching? I hate wolves just as much as everyone on here but laws are laws...and i don't care how reputable or good these people are at the end of the day if they plead guilty to killing wolves they are poachers. I never thought i'd see HW members saying that they'd "share a pot of coffee" with a poacher but i guess we can see where the rubber hits the road.hes only a poacher according to the government...they way i see it, hes doing the wildlife in washington a favor......i think the hunters and sportsman of washington of just tired of listening to the wdfw since the wdfw doesnt listen to us....
Therefore, you support criminal acts of vigilantism? Nice. Good luck being taken seriously, and thanks for making all hunters look like selfish, non-caring asswholes. Hope your proud.
It's statements like that thats really going to ruin it for hunters fighting for their priviledges.
He's a poacher by law, and he's a poacher by ethics. He defied the law he's suppossed to have upheld and shamed the tradition and shows an anarchy in his own tradition. He's nothing more than a common criminal.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:56:09 PM
Well, I've heard plenty hunters in person say many things about wolves, and they weren't always negative. Some are humble and feel it is not their decision to decide what animal belongs or not. They trust the land knows what to do. Others accept it as a challenge to honed ones skills and become a better hunter in competition. Others throw tissy fits while they scream and cry on the floor until they get what they demand.omg....now your plain full of sh**! lol you are not a hunter and its stupid obvious....good luck with your mission in telling us how great over grown coyotes are for our wildlife and future of hunting!! haha im gonna go throw myself on the floor and cry myself to sleep :chuckle:
Wanna see the hunting tags I bought last year? I wouldn't waste $100 plus just to prove a point.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:57:09 PM
lol good try.... :chuckle: :chuckle: your gonna have to do better than that pal! keep tryinEveryone on here hates poachers but as soon as you talk about killing wolves people want to set up a defense fund for them...isn't this also classified as poaching? I hate wolves just as much as everyone on here but laws are laws...and i don't care how reputable or good these people are at the end of the day if they plead guilty to killing wolves they are poachers. I never thought i'd see HW members saying that they'd "share a pot of coffee" with a poacher but i guess we can see where the rubber hits the road.hes only a poacher according to the government...they way i see it, hes doing the wildlife in washington a favor......i think the hunters and sportsman of washington of just tired of listening to the wdfw since the wdfw doesnt listen to us....
Therefore, you support criminal acts of vigilantism? Nice. Good luck being taken seriously, and thanks for making all hunters look like selfish, non-caring asswholes. Hope your proud.
It's statements like that thats really going to ruin it for hunters fighting for their priviledges.
He's a poacher by law, and he's a poacher by ethics. He defied the law he's suppossed to have upheld and shamed the tradition and shows an anarchy in his own tradition. He's nothing more than a common criminal.
Don't have to. You do a good enough job of lookin like an ass all on your own with that statement you made.
Post by: humanure on April 05, 2012, 11:58:17 PM
But it's not illegal to kill coyotes...
Point?
Post by: predatorpro on April 06, 2012, 12:08:23 AM
:IBCOOL: lol u tree huggers are all the same....always the same tactics...same sh** different day, always put words in everyones mouth...and i dont speak for all hunters...i speak for myself and no i dont care if someone shoots a wolf....i will sleep just fine at night....now that doesnt mean im gonna go shoot one which im sure was something you were wanting to say i would go do now blah blah blah, now first time i can afford to go hunt in idaho...yes im shooting a wolf and ill be posting all kinds of pictures on here....dont worry ill let you know when since you are a hunter and would love to see a picture of a dead wolf legally killed in idaho :)lol good try.... :chuckle: :chuckle: your gonna have to do better than that pal! keep tryinEveryone on here hates poachers but as soon as you talk about killing wolves people want to set up a defense fund for them...isn't this also classified as poaching? I hate wolves just as much as everyone on here but laws are laws...and i don't care how reputable or good these people are at the end of the day if they plead guilty to killing wolves they are poachers. I never thought i'd see HW members saying that they'd "share a pot of coffee" with a poacher but i guess we can see where the rubber hits the road.hes only a poacher according to the government...they way i see it, hes doing the wildlife in washington a favor......i think the hunters and sportsman of washington of just tired of listening to the wdfw since the wdfw doesnt listen to us....
Therefore, you support criminal acts of vigilantism? Nice. Good luck being taken seriously, and thanks for making all hunters look like selfish, non-caring asswholes. Hope your proud.
It's statements like that thats really going to ruin it for hunters fighting for their priviledges.
He's a poacher by law, and he's a poacher by ethics. He defied the law he's suppossed to have upheld and shamed the tradition and shows an anarchy in his own tradition. He's nothing more than a common criminal.
Don't have to. You do a good enough job of lookin like an ass all on your own with that statement you made.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:12:22 AM
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2012, 12:15:31 AM
hey humanure....what is your purpose of being on this site?? am i the only one that wants to :bash: every time i read one of your posts? i must have missed the part that proved you aren't just some tree hugger pretending to be a hunter....?? and don't worry im already use to the typical style of a tree huggers response! if someone disagrees with me ill gladly listen why
Dallas Bolen is here to help convince hunters to stay on the right side of the law.... Or so he said in one of his original posts... So far i'm not sure he's doing a good sales job... I can think of better reasons to stay on the right side of Johny Law than his pitch so far... You have to admit it he's the best salesman that the pro wolf crowd has come up with on this site so far. and the most persistent. Between here and the WDFW FB page his is selling his trying to sell his view. I don't think too many people are biting tho. :twocents:
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:21:20 AM
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2012, 12:25:31 AM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:29:45 AM
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2012, 12:36:33 AM
Post by: Kain on April 06, 2012, 12:41:15 AM
Calling people asswholes.
Go home Johnny we heard your pitch we just dont like your product. It causes cancer.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 06, 2012, 12:42:09 AM
Just goes to show, don't judge want you don't know. Bill is an example/idle to me, and i look up to him from how he has lived his life. everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect, so don't pretend to be. look at what the people that know him have said, the media does not know the man personally.
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2012, 12:50:27 AM
Post by: Chukar on April 06, 2012, 01:00:30 AM
One guy called a Judge a "bitch" then said "nah she is on our side" without apology?
Is it me or did one guy say another guy in this discussion that one person is full of "*censored*" when he posted the truth about a guy who is NOW a full on true, admitted POACHER of piece of junk wolves AND viable game animals only to respond to that same guy that said originally he's a "POACHER" and would be proven as much through his connections information with this bizarro response:
You like to twist the truth
REALLY???
Just cause he admitted guilt he may not be guilty? REALLY?
It takes money to fight these kind of things? REALLY?
These responses from HUNTERS?
IS IT ME?
And for the past four pages of embarrassment this obvious wolf plant Humanure has been kicking our butt with logic? using our own intellect and history of following the regs against us?
And kicking our asses?
WTH?
Is it me?
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:08:15 AM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:09:01 AM
Funny how they love civil disobedience when its a cause they believe in. Well they got people on the hippy side destroying property, getting arrested for trespassing and all sort of other stuff. Hell even had one set himself on fire and try to run into a fur store a couple years ago (door was locked...oops). Now there are some extremists on the other side breaking laws for causes they believe in and here comes Johny Lawful keeping all of us on the righteous path. A regular voice of reason.
Calling people asswholes.
Go home Johnny we heard your pitch we just dont like your product. It causes cancer.
I've already said, i don't support eco-terrorist, poachers, or vigilantism OF ANY KIND.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 06, 2012, 01:09:42 AM
Is it me?
One guy called a Judge a "bitch" then said "nah she is on our side" without apology?
if your talking about me in this statement, as i called the judge a bitch, keep reading the thread homie. i did admit to rushing into what i said, and when i realized how she fully handled the situation i realized i was wrong to say that she was one sided.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:11:20 AM
using our own intellect and history of following the regs against us?
I really wish I had that kind of power.
Post by: Chukar on April 06, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
"homie". Calling names like bitch does us no good and keeps the stereotype of us intact. On your side but wrong is wrong and spouting off names like Bitch ( when she was making a good call BTW )deters the direction of getting things pointed in the right direction.
So try " Heh I shouldn't have described her as a "bitch" when I was the one who screwed up. I apologize"
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2012, 01:21:32 AM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
Post by: Chukar on April 06, 2012, 01:34:30 AM
Ain't right from a logistical standpoint of ranchers and farmers
Ain't right that those not in field are making calls in the field.
Ain't right that those in urban populations are making decisions ( through funding, votes and politics) for those on rural outposts in regards to how they make a living and provide for family.
This whole wolf thing ain't right. Like alot of things right now it seems and thing is whats right usually gets worked out right. Without taking matters into our own hands like with a guy that has a number of POACHING calls against him.
We are backing the wrong pony here if a "defense fund" is our best idea.
Let's grab an Idaho tag instead and come home fully furred
It's the least we can do.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:38:03 AM
And Humanure I get what yer trying to do but this whole thing isn't right.
Ain't right from a logistical standpoint of ranchers and farmers
Ain't right that those not in field are making calls in the field.
Ain't right that those in urban populations are making decisions ( through funding, votes and politics) for those on rural outposts in regards to how they make a living and provide for family.
This whole wolf thing ain't right. Like alot of things right now it seems and thing is whats right usually gets worked out right. Without taking matters into our own hands like with a guy that has a number of POACHING calls against him.
We are backing the wrong pony here if a "defense fund" is our best idea.
Let's grab an Idaho tag instead and come home fully furred
It's the least we can do.
I can't talk smack if it ain't against the law, now can I? But I have little interest in what goes on in Idaho. I was raised in Washington, I don't plan on ever leaving tis mountain, so thats where my focus is. You hunt these lands and don't want wolves, I have roamed these lands my whole life and also begun hunting as well, and I want wolves. What makes your wants more valid than mine? and vice-versa.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:39:22 AM
This whole wolf thing ain't right.
To YOU it's not right. Thats just personal opinion, just like everything I have said has been personal opinion.
Post by: Kain on April 06, 2012, 01:48:03 AM
Wolves are here and here to stay. There is very little we can do about it. Some will not accept it willingly and they will have to pay the price for their actions if they get caught. Others will do all they can to minimize the damage. Most will just put their heads in the sand and bitch about the good old days.
I dont know where MANure fits in honestly he is really fighting for something that has already happend so maybe he just like the punishment. I hear some people are like that. :dunno: :chuckle:
Troller Gonna Troll
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWMn0TKaTzkmBrKrS7IxH6SMvSG5K2HBf3DJJiV69mVbe_VTgnRw)
Post by: Chukar on April 06, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
Sure you would recognize the old "people in glass houses should not huck rocks"
Sooner and hopefully later chickens do roost.
Historically man has made some poor wildlife decisions
Wolves are not one of those
They don't do fences. They don't observe Holidays. They do not hold pets in high regard.
They run down everything. Well.
You don't race one wolf you race them all.
The social system they govern accelerates within the given territory until it needs to expand. And then again. And again.
Thing is. I'm here. My land is here. Your land is here. Our game is here.
Who's call is this?
Gonna go with those that are affected by this intruder cause that what this canine is. An intruder
The ones that were here before are gone. Have been gone.
AND I AM CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO BACK A POACHER or call a Judge within our court system a "bitch" cause I have my story wrong or argue the fine points of when a guy is an admitted POACHER and when one is awaiting to admit GUILT as a POACHER
Screwy when one has to preach to the choir and deliberate with the Devil.
Let's get it together here boys and girls
Post by: Chukar on April 06, 2012, 02:10:48 AM
Tossing in your "most hunters don't do this " falls a little flat here.
Call a spade a spade. We should speak out against wrong either way. Saying it's not prevalent or ignoring it leaves shots unanswered. Gotta respond as we are dwindling and our voice is becoming fainter
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 06, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
You are ignoring this personDamn it's nice to be able to do this!!
Post by: MuleySniper on April 06, 2012, 07:03:03 AM
Funny how they love civil disobedience when its a cause they believe in. Well they got people on the hippy side destroying property, getting arrested for trespassing and all sort of other stuff. Hell even had one set himself on fire and try to run into a fur store a couple years ago (door was locked...oops). Now there are some extremists on the other side breaking laws for causes they believe in and here comes Johny Lawful keeping all of us on the righteous path. A regular voice of reason.
Calling people asswholes.
Go home Johnny we heard your pitch we just dint like your product. It causes cancer.
:yeah:
Oh and I do not doubt humanure spent $100 in hunting licenses last year either. Lots of animal rights organizations buy permits with their funding just to burn a tag in limited draw areas. Nothing new there.
MS
Post by: MuleySniper on April 06, 2012, 07:11:48 AM
This whole wolf thing ain't right.
To YOU it's not right. Thats just personal opinion, just like everything I have said has been personal opinion.
No he's speaking on behalf of the MAJORITY of hunters who with this introduction of wolves will be affected most. Again humanure, you are on a Washington based pro hunting website. I'm a little concerned too how you say you have no concern for our neighboring Idaho....I'd bet though if you spent some time on an Idaho based hunting and fishing site your comments wouldn't be nearly as tolerated as they are here.
MS
Post by: predatorpro on April 06, 2012, 07:24:59 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 08:23:46 AM
But, I do not think people who are simply protecting their property should be labeled as poachers and honestly none of us know all the facts to be able to say Bill White wasn't potecting his property.
I keep seeing an argument from humanure regarding a claim that ungulates cannot be shot to protect crops, that is patently false. Crop protection occurs in Washington on a frequent basis. The WDFW even issues dozens of permits to ranchers in my county alone, anyone who has a hunting license and deer tag, can shoot a doe to reduce the impact on crops long before hunting season ever opens. If I walk out my door and find that deer keep destroying my garden I can legally shoot that deer and call the game warden to come and get it off my property. That is the law, that is a fact. Same for ranchers, they can protect their crops and then call the game warden to remove the dead marauding deer or elk.
Now why can’t I protect my livestock or pets against wolves? There is a fine line that needs to be defined regarding predators in Washington. This will eventually be addressed regarding what is considered poaching and what is considered protecting your livestock just as it is being addressed in Idaho with wolves and grizzly bears. If the White's killed wolves that were attempting to kill their livestock or chased a bear away that stalking their calves, then I would find it hard to convict them for their actions and I would say this state needs to get their *censored* together and offer ranchers a legal way to protect their property and livelihood. This whole wolf recovery goes against our rights that are guaranteed by this country’s founding documents.
I don't know the details of the White case but in my mind no person should be denied their right to protect themselves or their property. Current laws allow myself or you to lethally protect ourselves against criminals breaking into our home, criminals who attack us on the street, deer or elk that eat our crops, even a woodpecker that is pecking holes in my house (game warden gave us permission to blow him away to protect our home), and coyotes or bear that kill our livestock.
But if a wolf or grizzly bear or eagle comes in and kills my livestock or my pet in my backyard, I cannot do anything. In my opinion something is wrong. Unfortunately it takes cases like the White's or like the guy in Bonners Ferry to get laws changed regarding wolves or grizzly bears.
Bill White admitted to shooting at a moose in Canada and was not licensed. In my mind, that was the most obvious poaching charge against him. Fine him for it and let him learn a lesson. I am not banishing him from the empire and never speaking to him again, I know he deserves better than that regardless of what anyone may say. I also question the facts of those who claim White has a history of poaching, I'm not sure that has been proven. Has Bill White ever been convicted of poaching previously?
I saw the comment about the eagle parts but didn't see anything that said he shot the eagle, if he happened to pick up a feather or pick up parts from an already dead eagle (they can’t all live forever) then I would think he would be guilty of illegal possession of parts, but he is not an eagle poacher unless he shot the eagle in my mind.
Some may say I am giving White the benefit of the doubt on this but let me give you a real life example: A guy I know was turkey hunting along the Kettle River and found a dead eagle. He thought the feet were pretty cool looking so he cut one off to keep. When I heard that he had found an eagle and cut off a foot I told him that it was a federal violation and suggested that he take the foot back and then call the game warden which he did. He explained the whole situation to the game warden and took the warden to the dead bird. It was investigated and he received no citation due to his cooperation, however, had I not warned the guy that it was illegal to be in possession of eagle parts, the guy would not have known and would of unknowingly been in violation of federal law and could have been charged exactly as Bill White has been charged. This isn't a stupid guy I am talking about, he is now a successful veterinarian with a solid business, but at the time he was simply ignorant of the law, but was he a poacher? I have never heard of him doing anything else that violates any game laws. I'm just glad there wasn't a lynch mob wanting to hang the poor guy or wanting to destroy the guy before they had all the facts.
Before you hang Bill White for being a long time poacher or an eagle poacher, you should know the whole story, whatever it may be, and you should know if he has a history of game violations and if he shot the eagle. If he killed the eagle he will have to face the consequences, but if the circumstances are more innocent in nature, I would say you are unfairly calling him an eagle poacher.
There's good reason people should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 06, 2012, 08:38:11 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 08:50:21 AM
But they knew wolves would be eating beef, lamb, horse, and dog, so they took away our rights that are guaranteed by the founding documents. Like I said, it's cases like the White's and other ranchers in Idaho, Montana, and WY that will be needed to get wolf laws changed. In Idaho Bill White would likely not have even been charged for killing those wolves.
In 10 years everybody on this site will have a much different view of the White's after many other ranchers and pet owners have suffered the "wrath of the wolf". The media and the WDFW has been pretty successful at turning this into a poaching case, hunters and ranchers need to use this wolf case as an example of why laws need changed so that people can protect their property and livilhood.
Post by: Machias on April 06, 2012, 08:56:13 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 08:57:32 AM
Good thing his trial wasn't a jury trial in my county where three ranchers are missing 41 head of cattle and there is wolf poop littering the countryside full of cattle hair.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: bigtex on April 06, 2012, 09:14:13 AM
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 09:30:51 AM
It seems like everyone has forgotten he was also convicted for a violation of the Lacey Act since he POACHED an animal in Canada and brought it into WA. A provision of the Lacey Act prohibits you from bringing unlawfully taken game/fish/plants across state/international borders.
Not at all, I pointed it out clearly....
Quote
Bill White admitted to shooting at a moose in Canada and was not licensed. In my mind, that was the most obvious poaching charge against him. Fine him for it and let him learn a lesson. I am not banishing him from the empire and never speaking to him again, I know he deserves better than that regardless of what anyone may say. I also question the facts of those who claim White has a history of poaching, I'm not sure that has been proven. Has Bill White ever been convicted of poaching previously?
Yes, the Whites messed up badly and this will be an expensive learning process. But once the whole thing is finished and if he acted to protect his stock in respect to the wolves, I invite Bill White to join the forum with the username "Bill White" so everyone knows exactly who is posting and I hope he explains his case here on the forum. I think it's important for people to hear his version of the story, not the edited version you are getting from the pro-wolf news media who have painted him as a career poacher.
I like telling stories to illistrate points, here's another real life story. When I was a stupid teanager I was driving drunk and attemted to pass a car in the fog. I hit another vehicle head on and could have killed a half dozen people including a husband and wife in the other vehicle, my girlfriend at the time, and my sister and brother-in-law. I lost my drivers license for 6 months, I could see a lot of people had a lot of disgust regarding my actions, and I have worked to pay back the insurance company for most of my life. Had anyone died I would have also been locked up for manslaughter and that may have turned me into a career criminal, who knows. But society didn't hang me, they didn't lock me up, they gave me another chance to be a productive part of society.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I know Bill White was a good person 20ish years ago when I last talked to him in person and I suspect he is still a good person. I want to give Bill White the same kind chance to live up to whatever mistake he made as what society gave me.
Society places child rapists in new neighborhoods and puts murderers back on the street to try and fit into society. I can see no harm and in providing Bill White "a person who has actually volunteered his time for many good causes" from having another chance. :twocents:
Post by: matt345 on April 06, 2012, 09:42:11 AM
:yeah:It seems like everyone has forgotten he was also convicted for a violation of the Lacey Act since he POACHED an animal in Canada and brought it into WA. A provision of the Lacey Act prohibits you from bringing unlawfully taken game/fish/plants across state/international borders.
Not at all, I pointed it out clearly....QuoteBill White admitted to shooting at a moose in Canada and was not licensed. In my mind, that was the most obvious poaching charge against him. Fine him for it and let him learn a lesson. I am not banishing him from the empire and never speaking to him again, I know he deserves better than that regardless of what anyone may say. I also question the facts of those who claim White has a history of poaching, I'm not sure that has been proven. Has Bill White ever been convicted of poaching previously?
Yes, the Whites messed up badly and this will be an expensive learning process. But once the whole thing is finished and if he acted to protect his stock in respect to the wolves, I invite Bill White to join the forum with the username "Bill White" so everyone knows exactly who is posting and I hope he explains his case here on the forum. I think it's important for people to hear his version of the story, not the edited version you are getting from the pro-wolf news media who have painted him as a career poacher.
I like telling stories to illistrate points, here's another real life story. When I was a stupid teanager I was driving drunk and attemted to pass a car in the fog. I hit another vehicle head on and could have killed a half dozen people including a husband and wife in the other vehicle, my girlfriend at the time, and my sister and brother-in-law. I lost my drivers license for 6 months, I could see a lot of people had a lot of disgust regarding my actions, and I have worked to pay back the insurance company for most of my life. Had anyone died I would have also been locked up for manslaughter and that may have turned me into a career criminal, who knows. But society didn't hang me, they didn't lock me up, they gave me another chance to be a productive part of society.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I know Bill White was a good person 20ish years ago when I last talked to him in person and I suspect he is still a good person. I want to give Bill White the same kind chance to live up to whatever mistake he made as what society gave me.
Society places child rapists in new neighborhoods and puts murderers back on the street to try and fit into society. I can see no harm and in providing Bill White "a person who has actually volunteered his time for many good causes" from having another chance. :twocents:
Post by: Machias on April 06, 2012, 09:46:24 AM
It seems like everyone has forgotten he was also convicted for a violation of the Lacey Act since he POACHED an animal in Canada and brought it into WA. A provision of the Lacey Act prohibits you from bringing unlawfully taken game/fish/plants across state/international borders.
Nope and not giving him a pass on that violation. Of course paying $38,000 is not really getting a pass.
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 09:51:28 AM
If a guy is out of work, can't get a job no matter what he does, can't feed his family and then robs a bank, don't we still convict him of bank robbery when he is caught?
I would have been on his side had they not been trying to make it into a trophy.
Absolutely, make him pay his debt to society.
But you can't expect him to be a productive member of society is you banish him from the empire. If you want to convert people after they have made mistakes you must give them another chance to fit in. We do it for most other wrongdoers, why can't we offer our compassion to the Whites? Let him pay his debt and let him plead his case where everyone can see it if he feels some of the facts were misconstrued by the media.
Post by: mulehunter on April 06, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
No need to JUDGE agasint him. God and Law will.
Bill is a VERY VERY GOOD GUY. I will always be his best buddy. I will ALWAYS GO HUNT, Camp, hiking, WITH HIM.
Mulehunter :IBCOOL:
Post by: Killmore on April 06, 2012, 11:50:19 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on April 06, 2012, 12:03:45 PM
No body Perfect, People Choose what they want and We all learn mistakes, God forgive him because He want to change to better Person. Once Bill asked God to forgive him for whatever happen He did. God listen and God will forget all what happen and He will be a good person for all of us.
No need to JUDGE agasint him. God and Law will.
Bill is a VERY VERY GOOD GUY. I will always be his best buddy. I will ALWAYS GO HUNT, Camp, hiking, WITH HIM.
Mulehunter :IBCOOL:
:tup: Good to see you back mule. With all this rotten spring snow, it's making me want to go chase lions instead of fool with gobblers! Damn rules and regulations! :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 12:14:56 PM
No body Perfect, People Choose what they want and We all learn mistakes,
mulehunter it's good to see you on here and thanks for your insightful comments :tup:
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:42:39 PM
They don't do fences. They don't observe Holidays. They do not hold pets in high regard.
Uh... are wild animals SUPPOSSED to think otherwise???
Post by: Kain on April 06, 2012, 12:46:41 PM
They don't do fences. They don't observe Holidays. They do not hold pets in high regard.
Uh... are wild animals SUPPOSSED to think otherwise???
Missing the point again. If it was a coyote, bear, cougar you could shoot it to protect your property and livelihood. Wolf not so much.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:47:53 PM
All I know about this is what I have read. I agree he should be able to protect his pets and livestock. Had he shot a wolf, let it lay and called it in to report it or (SSS)I doubt all of this would be going on. From what I read, they had photos of them celebrating and then packing it up and shipping it off to Canada. In that scenario I think he got what he deserved. I don't want the wolves around either, but no one is entitled to twist the laws for their own purposes. I don't know him personally, but some of my relatives do. He was big into hunting and was the local hunter ed instructor from what I hear. It's not like he didn't know what he was doing.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 12:54:05 PM
Post by: videoman on April 06, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
I'm all for 2nd chances as well, but he has quite alot of things working against him that were by his own hands and volition. I don't see rehabilitation when others are looking past the severity of his actions. I'm not saying you should banish him, but if you build a defense support and stand up for the actions made, how is he suppossed to change his ways(and I'm not taking about the wolf poaching)?
The only thing he needs to change is trying to ship them to canada. I think the Whites and all the other livestock owners will and should protect there livestock against whatever.
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 01:30:52 PM
I'll be honest, i don't believe for a minute he was protecting his livestock, at all. I know what wolves do and what they have done, but looking at all the evidence and actions laid out on the table... livestock protection is just an excuse that is going to lose some of it validity due to people abusing it to kill wolves. Plus, he was conspiring to do MORE than 'protecting his livestock'. He was going to go out of his way to do more unlawful acts. I always felt people might resort to going back to poisoning, I just hoped it wouldn't actually happen. Poisoning is probably the cruelest thing you can do to anyone or anything. It takes a special kind of person to watch an animal writhing in pain for hours on end... but then you've got your unethical slaughterhouses, but thats a whole 'nother discussion.
Post by: Swiftkid on April 06, 2012, 01:36:22 PM
Post by: Machias on April 06, 2012, 01:52:35 PM
P.S. You know we have other forum members who have been arrested for poaching, a couple of them have been high profile. Most guys here have forgiven them and welcomed them back onto the forum.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 06, 2012, 01:54:06 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 01:55:39 PM
The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..
Nobody is argueing, he made a plea deal. He has been fined $38,000 for the wolves and the moose incident, that is hardly getting "let off", you greeners need to grow up. If he was a child rapist you'd probably be standing up for him. :chuckle:
You must have missed my post. I made it very clear that unlike some previous false claims by humanure its legal to shoot elk or deer doing damage and I also stated that White should be able to protect his livestock. The evidence showed that the Lookout pack was living near his ranch and that he had information on how to control wolves. Why do you suppose he wanted to rid himself of wolves, the evidence leads me to beleive he was wanting to protect his livestock. If he lived in the city and was plotting to kill wolves that would be a different story, but the evidence proves the wolves were living near his livestock raising operation.
Like I said, if the man lived a little farther east he would not have committed a crime by shooting those wolves. In time we will move that boundary westward too. :stirthepot:
I should have said in a few years "the wolves" will cause that boundary to be moved westward. My neighbors in Stevens county are still out 41 head of cattle and they are not happy, that's about $40,000 taken from them by the wolf lovers who "introduced" larger non-native wolves into Idaho from northern Canada.
I remember a year or so ago the Idaho governor prohibited IDFG from investigating or reporting wolf killings to the feds. The only problem is that Bill White lives in the wrong state. But over time wolves are going to move the "wolf reality line" westward. :twocents:
Post by: Killmore on April 06, 2012, 02:02:31 PM
Post by: Swiftkid on April 06, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..
Nobody is argueing, he made a plea deal. He has been fined $38,000 for the wolves and the moose incident, that is hardly getting "let off", you greeners need to grow up. If he was a child rapist you'd probably be standing up for him. :chuckle:
You must have missed my post. I made it very clear that unlike some previous false claims by humanure its legal to shoot elk or deer doing damage and I also stated that White should be able to protect his livestock. The evidence showed that the Lookout pack was living near his ranch and that he had information on how to control wolves. Why do you suppose he wanted to rid himself of wolves, the evidence leads me to beleive he was wanting to protect his livestock. If he lived in the city and was plotting to kill wolves that would be a different story, but the evidence proves the wolves were living near his livestock raising operation.
Like I said, if the man lived a little farther east he would not have committed a crime by shooting those wolves. In time we will move that boundary westward too. :stirthepot:
I don't know if you remember the farmer who shot 22 elk in his orchard because they were damaging his crop...he didn't get off so i don't believe your statement about shooting elk or deer that are causing damage is legal. They do give damage permits to farmers but they do not let them regulate deer and elk on they're property. I'm just trying to say laws are laws...if you don't want to live by them move to mexico.
Post by: Squatch200 on April 06, 2012, 02:30:21 PM
http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=thab1
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..
Nobody is argueing, he made a plea deal. He has been fined $38,000 for the wolves and the moose incident, that is hardly getting "let off", you greeners need to grow up. If he was a child rapist you'd probably be standing up for him. :chuckle:
You must have missed my post. I made it very clear that unlike some previous false claims by humanure its legal to shoot elk or deer doing damage and I also stated that White should be able to protect his livestock. The evidence showed that the Lookout pack was living near his ranch and that he had information on how to control wolves. Why do you suppose he wanted to rid himself of wolves, the evidence leads me to beleive he was wanting to protect his livestock. If he lived in the city and was plotting to kill wolves that would be a different story, but the evidence proves the wolves were living near his livestock raising operation.
Like I said, if the man lived a little farther east he would not have committed a crime by shooting those wolves. In time we will move that boundary westward too. :stirthepot:
I don't know if you remember the farmer who shot 22 elk in his orchard because they were damaging his crop...he didn't get off so i don't believe your statement about shooting elk or deer that are causing damage is legal. They do give damage permits to farmers but they do not let them regulate deer and elk on they're property. I'm just trying to say laws are laws...if you don't want to live by them move to mexico.
First I have no plans of moving to Mexico and I would ask that the wolf lovers and greeners do that. :chuckle:
I haven't heard that White killed 22 wolves, but I will bet he saved saved 22 deer in a few months by killing those wolves. :chuckle:
On a more serious note, my guess is that if the orchardist had shot one elk no problem, but he obviously shot as many as he could as they were likely fleeing his orchard. But he is entitled to protect his property and it happens regularly in this state, so nice try by using that one example.
It would be easy for you to draw me away from my point and into a separate discussion. Bottom line White was caught, he was fined, he will pay the price. Does that make him any worse than the guy who breaks the speed limit on the freeway and endangers the lives of your wife and children, I don't think so. WE don't expell speedsters from society, we make them pay, White now needs a chance to pay his debt and move forward. You call him what you want, I will still call him a friend.
Post by: Earshot on April 06, 2012, 02:59:43 PM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 03:19:03 PM
I haven't heard that White killed 22 wolves, but I will bet he saved saved 22 deer in a few months by killing those wolves. :chuckle:The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..
Nobody is argueing, he made a plea deal. He has been fined $38,000 for the wolves and the moose incident, that is hardly getting "let off", you greeners need to grow up. If he was a child rapist you'd probably be standing up for him. :chuckle:
You must have missed my post. I made it very clear that unlike some previous false claims by humanure its legal to shoot elk or deer doing damage and I also stated that White should be able to protect his livestock. The evidence showed that the Lookout pack was living near his ranch and that he had information on how to control wolves. Why do you suppose he wanted to rid himself of wolves, the evidence leads me to beleive he was wanting to protect his livestock. If he lived in the city and was plotting to kill wolves that would be a different story, but the evidence proves the wolves were living near his livestock raising operation.
Like I said, if the man lived a little farther east he would not have committed a crime by shooting those wolves. In time we will move that boundary westward too. :stirthepot:
I don't know if you remember the farmer who shot 22 elk in his orchard because they were damaging his crop...he didn't get off so i don't believe your statement about shooting elk or deer that are causing damage is legal. They do give damage permits to farmers but they do not let them regulate deer and elk on they're property. I'm just trying to say laws are laws...if you don't want to live by them move to mexico.
Which hunters. bear and cougar will kill anyways. So in essence, they aren't saved.
Post by: KillBilly on April 06, 2012, 03:23:33 PM
I haven't heard that White killed 22 wolves, but I will bet he saved saved 22 deer in a few months by killing those wolves. :chuckle:The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..
Nobody is argueing, he made a plea deal. He has been fined $38,000 for the wolves and the moose incident, that is hardly getting "let off", you greeners need to grow up. If he was a child rapist you'd probably be standing up for him. :chuckle:
You must have missed my post. I made it very clear that unlike some previous false claims by humanure its legal to shoot elk or deer doing damage and I also stated that White should be able to protect his livestock. The evidence showed that the Lookout pack was living near his ranch and that he had information on how to control wolves. Why do you suppose he wanted to rid himself of wolves, the evidence leads me to beleive he was wanting to protect his livestock. If he lived in the city and was plotting to kill wolves that would be a different story, but the evidence proves the wolves were living near his livestock raising operation.
Like I said, if the man lived a little farther east he would not have committed a crime by shooting those wolves. In time we will move that boundary westward too. :stirthepot:
I don't know if you remember the farmer who shot 22 elk in his orchard because they were damaging his crop...he didn't get off so i don't believe your statement about shooting elk or deer that are causing damage is legal. They do give damage permits to farmers but they do not let them regulate deer and elk on they're property. I'm just trying to say laws are laws...if you don't want to live by them move to mexico.
Which hunters. bear and cougar will kill anyways. So in essence, they aren't saved.
As are those that don't know when to quit saved....
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 03:26:37 PM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 03:29:10 PM
And BTW, I don't have sympathy for child rapists. I hope they die a slow, painful death. No rapist should be given a 2nd chance.
Post by: bearpaw on April 06, 2012, 03:52:04 PM
bearpaw, I can see both sides of this discussion. I just wanted to say, good for you for standing your ground, a good friend is hard to find and I think most of us would like a friend like you. :tup:
THANKS, I understand both sides too, and just to clear the air, I have told people in leadership positions that it worries me that wolves are not doing the public perception toward poaching any good. Great strides have been made to curb poaching in recent years. Now we have a specie that is above the law and it is threatening people's livlihoods and threatening our game herds and WDFW sides with all the wolf groups to force too many of these beasts upon those of us who have to live with them.
If you drive over to Idaho and talk to local residents in any small rural town you will find a large percentage who will tell you that wolf season will never end, it's open season year around. As wolf problems escalate in Washington you will see more and more people who take on that attitude. It's not good.
To top off my own frustration last year a neighbor who lives only 2 miles from me had 5 adult wolves trying to attack his german shephards in their kennel in his back yard. He was afraid they were going to get over the kennel fence and had to fire shots in the air to scare them off. I asked him if I could report it. I sent email which I also copied to all my legislators and a few others because I am proactive and because as an American I have that right under the 1st Amendment. I got a call from the Region 1 manager Steve Pozzanghera basically chewing me out for copying that message to my legislators. Then he goes on to tell me that it was coyotes. (typical WDFW response)
If my neighbor up the road would not have had a kennel around his dogs it's my guess he might have had to shoot those wolves (coyotes) to save his dogs. He would have been in deep trouble just like Bill White, but I would stand up for him as well, this is simply an injustice this whole wolf fiasco.
Anyway, I haven't seen Bill White in probably 20 years, but he was a good member of our community who volunteered his time to help others and I have heard and beleive he is a good member of the community where he lives now. The media and WDFW want to make an example of him, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a better person than most people have for their neighbors. Let me put it a different way, would you rather have Bill White or humanure for your neighbor? (I know that wasn't fair, shame on me)
The WDFW and legislators need to manup and change the law to take care of this wolf situation before it gets to the point that poaching is an accepted practice like what has happened in Idaho. :twocents:
Post by: mulehunter on April 06, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
Post by: Machias on April 06, 2012, 06:56:36 PM
As said, I'm pro-hunting but i can't help but laugh my ass off at hunters screaming "we are trying to save our herds!". Your not saving them if your trying to kill them.
Now I know for a fact you are not and never have been a hunter.
Post by: rb2506 on April 06, 2012, 07:03:14 PM
As said, I'm pro-hunting but i can't help but laugh my ass off at hunters screaming "we are trying to save our herds!". Your not saving them if your trying to kill them. We get it, you don't like having to work harder for your kills, but at least be real about it istead of that sorry excuse that no one believes.
And BTW, I don't have sympathy for child rapists. I hope they die a slow, painful death. No rapist should be given a 2nd chance.
so there is a we
Post by: MuleySniper on April 06, 2012, 07:12:48 PM
Hasn't been real hard to figure out.
MS
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 07:15:02 PM
Post by: rb2506 on April 06, 2012, 07:17:28 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 06, 2012, 07:23:32 PM
Well said bearpaw!!!!! :tup: :tup:bearpaw, I can see both sides of this discussion. I just wanted to say, good for you for standing your ground, a good friend is hard to find and I think most of us would like a friend like you. :tup:
THANKS, I understand both sides too, and just to clear the air, I have told people in leadership positions that it worries me that wolves are not doing the public perception toward poaching any good. Great strides have been made to curb poaching in recent years. Now we have a specie that is above the law and it is threatening people's livlihoods and threatening our game herds and WDFW sides with all the wolf groups to force too many of these beasts upon those of us who have to live with them.
If you drive over to Idaho and talk to local residents in any small rural town you will find a large percentage who will tell you that wolf season will never end, it's open season year around. As wolf problems escalate in Washington you will see more and more people who take on that attitude. It's not good.
To top off my own frustration last year a neighbor who lives only 2 miles from me had 5 adult wolves trying to attack his german shephards in their kennel in his back yard. He was afraid they were going to get over the kennel fence and had to fire shots in the air to scare them off. I asked him if I could report it. I sent email which I also copied to all my legislators and a few others because I am proactive and because as an American I have that right under the 1st Amendment. I got a call from the Region 1 manager Steve Pozzanghera basically chewing me out for copying that message to my legislators. Then he goes on to tell me that it was coyotes. (typical WDFW response)
If my neighbor up the road would not have had a kennel around his dogs it's my guess he might have had to shoot those wolves (coyotes) to save his dogs. He would have been in deep trouble just like Bill White, but I would stand up for him as well, this is simply an injustice this whole wolf fiasco.
Anyway, I haven't seen Bill White in probably 20 years, but he was a good member of our community who volunteered his time to help others and I have heard and beleive he is a good member of the community where he lives now. The media and WDFW want to make an example of him, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a better person than most people have for their neighbors. Let me put it a different way, would you rather have Bill White or humanure for your neighbor? (I know that wasn't fair, shame on me)
The WDFW and legislators need to manup and change the law to take care of this wolf situation before it gets to the point that poaching is an accepted practice like what has happened in Idaho. :twocents:
Post by: TONTO on April 06, 2012, 08:33:10 PM
We as in the world. Nice try, though.
So WE as in the world, and YOU as in you damn ignorant hunters. Yeah got it,....now go away.
Post by: seth30 on April 06, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
Post by: humanure on April 06, 2012, 09:23:06 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 07, 2012, 06:35:45 AM
The man plead guilty to these charges there for he is now classified as a POACHER...a poacher is a poacher just like a spade is a spade...you can get into how good he is or how he was protecting his livestock who cares...if this guy was shooting 300 class bull elk out of his orchards you wouldn't be backing him..So let me ask you a question. Could you imagine how much money the whites have probably spent to date , in there defense? What do the whites do for a living? hmmm. Farmer's. Last time I checked farmers make a living and it isn't to get rich let me tell you that. So in the grand scheme of things What do you think it would have cost to go to court? I believe the whites plead guilty because in the end It would have cost everything they had to get out of this. Wich I believe 100% they would have made out with no penalty's. Like bear paw said the whites were and are very upstanding people of the community. They help others and are great people to be around.
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 07, 2012, 07:10:30 AM
No body Perfect, People Choose what they want and We all learn mistakes, God forgive him because He want to change to better Person. Once Bill asked God to forgive him for whatever happen He did. God listen and God will forget all what happen and He will be a good person for all of us.:tup: amen brother
No need to JUDGE agasint him. God and Law will.
Bill is a VERY VERY GOOD GUY. I will always be his best buddy. I will ALWAYS GO HUNT, Camp, hiking, WITH HIM.
Mulehunter :IBCOOL:
:tup: Good to see you back mule. With all this rotten spring snow, it's making me want to go chase lions instead of fool with gobblers! Damn rules and regulations! :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on April 07, 2012, 08:25:45 AM
Thanks Bearpaw for saying what you have said, and I enjoyed one of Kains posts too.
Quote
Funny how they love civil disobedience when its a cause they believe in. Well they got people on the hippy side destroying property, getting arrested for trespassing and all sort of other stuff. Hell even had one set himself on fire and try to run into a fur store a couple years ago (door was locked...oops). Now there are some extremists on the other side breaking laws for causes they believe in and here comes Johny Lawful keeping all of us on the righteous path. A regular voice of reason.
I think if I responded to some of these other posts, I'd get Carpal Tunnel.......
Post by: Shed Stud on April 07, 2012, 09:10:59 AM
As said, I'm pro-hunting but i can't help but laugh my ass off at hunters screaming "we are trying to save our herds!". Your not saving them if your trying to kill them. We get it, you don't like having to work harder for your kills, but at least be real about it istead of that sorry excuse that no one believes.WOW! It sure was nice when you were not here, go have a sabbatical or whatever you trekkers call it. I am going to pound a mountain out after reading all this from humancrap.
And BTW, I don't have sympathy for child rapists. I hope they die a slow, painful death. No rapist should be given a 2nd chance.
Post by: Johnb317 on April 07, 2012, 09:36:22 AM
Ok off the subject. Sorry guys.
A 38k fine is probably a lot cheaper than going to court.
Remember, our court system is designed to deal with bad people, they don't know how to work with people trying to do the right thing
I would have liked to see what jury of his peers would say. Hmmm can you argue for a jury made up of farmers and hunters?
Post by: boneaddict on April 07, 2012, 09:44:43 AM
By the way, I tend to be very supportive of law enforcement. Sorry for not being supportive in this case.
Post by: Curly on April 07, 2012, 09:47:36 AM
They wouldn't have wanted me on the jury...... They are the real criminals in this case.
By the way, I tend to be very supportive of law enforcement. Sorry for not being supportive in this case.
+1
Post by: Machias on April 07, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
Ok off the subject. Sorry guys.
A 38k fine is probably a lot cheaper than going to court.
Remember, our court system is designed to deal with bad people, they don't know how to work with people trying to do the right thing
In this instance they wanted $105,000 to go to court, $35,000 for each lawyer and all three needed lawyers. Really had no choice but to plead guilty and at the last minute, after verbal agreements on the charges to be pled guilty to, some additional state charges were added on the paperwok and they would not remove them. The deer poaching stems from a photo on his laptop, but it was loaded with the wrong date, as were several other non-hunting photos. He even had someone willing to testify that he helped load this deer and it was not during the time frame the photo showed...but what do you do when your looking at $105,000 or $38,000. He knows he was wrong, but he's not the habitual poacher he's being made out to be. Hopefully someday, once all this is done, he can come on here and explain his side. I'm sure some won't want to hear or care what his side of the story is, but I hope in the future he can get on with his life and get this behind him....I hope for the same thing for his family.
Post by: stuckalot on April 08, 2012, 09:41:06 AM
I have no doubt that they are great people, I don't like the plea bargain system, I think the cost and simple survival make too many innocent people guilty of something. But trying to ship the pelt, to another country none the less, is just epically stupid! And gives wolfers alot of very high visibility press that we don't need in this fight!
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 11:38:08 AM
Post by: Machias on April 08, 2012, 12:36:22 PM
It just goes to show, poaching no matter what the reason doesn't pay. Just keep the predations as fresh as possible and get money off the defenders until the laws are changed.
That's easy to say now, but this family tried many times to do the right thing, LONG before they ever killed a wolf. He had a calf killed in 07 in his field. He started scratching trails with a rake to figue out what it was. Eventually, figured out it was a big dog or wolf, but at first thought it was a cougar. Then started seeing the same tracks at his boneyard. Most ranchers have a boneyard where they take their dead cattle and guts and hides so the eagles and ravens can clean them up. Then in the winter up the road he had his best hound killed and completely eaten. He told a Federal Biologist there were wolves. His son even saw a pack of 9 and said it looked like one had a collar. This was told to the local Bio and he said he would put that in his file of "bigfoot sightings". Then a couple months later he told a different Federal Bio they had wolves and he just gave Bill the cold shoulder. A couple months later he found some hair samples he'd taken off a barbed wire fence and gave them to the second Bio. He has no clue what he did with the samples but he never heard back. Then he bought a trail camera and started getting pictures and got about a dozen pictures of wolves coming into the boneyard. He then showed them to the Bio and he brought a trapper out and they caught two wolves and collared them. At this point he'd already lost a pet and 6 calves. He told the Bio at that time he'd also had a dog killed and eaten and he just rolled his eyes. You might guess how he became frustrated by telling the Feds three times he had wolves and they didn't even bother to come look.
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 12:57:42 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 01:00:32 PM
how about the wolves that didn't exist over in Leclerc
how about the wolves that don't exist in Lincoln where the Spokane Indians just DNA'd
how about the wolves that didn't exist on Sherman or the San Poil
how about the wolves that...........and my list just keeps going. NOT an illusion as I have seen with my own eyes. So Humanure, how many have you seen in REAL LIFE out in the woods.....how many times were you the "prey"? :)
Not to mention how many miles, drainages etc those cute little lookout wolves travel and can be at the same place at the same time. LOL
How much longer are we going to track those Blues wolves before they are achnowledged....maybe they are finally, I don't know
I gave up myself. If they don't exist according to big brother, then they don't exist right? I don't even bother with the sightings anymore. After awhile someone else will finally stumble upon them.....or they will come clean.
Post by: Johnb317 on April 08, 2012, 01:26:05 PM
If he had a defense fund I would have donated.
I'm a believer in the United States, and hope that 90 percent of govt employees work hard to do the right thing.
Then stuff like ruby ridge, and allowing guns across the border to Mexico and I start to wonder.
Post by: bearpaw on April 08, 2012, 02:05:11 PM
If I was elected as governor this fall and learned that to be fact, the White's would be getting a full pardon from me and their debt dismissed. Next I would implement a full investigation into the biologists who hid the facts and the wolves, if proven guilty they would be fired and ordered to pay the White's legal defense costs if that's at all possible to do. :twocents:
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 02:14:34 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 08, 2012, 02:30:30 PM
The days of being able to have boneyards are gone. Most farmers have tractors, yes? if that kind of equipment is available, then they need to bury their carrion to keep unwanted animals from digging through it.
I thought we like scavengers? (eagles, hawks, etc.)
Funny how you seem to forget about their wefare now that this involves wolves.
I don't think wolves belong on private ranch property period. We have children, pets, and livestock, when it comes to private property the only good wolf is a dead wolf, it should be open season on private land, I will do everything within my power to work to that end.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 04:53:37 PM
BTW, you have to be responsible for your livestock, even your dead ones.
If I was elected as governor this fall and learned that to be fact, the White's would be getting a full pardon from me and their debt dismissed. Next I would implement a full investigation into the biologists who hid the facts and the wolves, if proven guilty they would be fired and ordered to pay the White's legal defense costs if that's at all possible to do. :twocents:
Oh, I have no doubt you would. Hahaha.
Post by: bearpaw on April 08, 2012, 05:20:46 PM
have fun in court, then.
BTW, you have to be responsible for your livestock, even your dead ones.If I was elected as governor this fall and learned that to be fact, the White's would be getting a full pardon from me and their debt dismissed. Next I would implement a full investigation into the biologists who hid the facts and the wolves, if proven guilty they would be fired and ordered to pay the White's legal defense costs if that's at all possible to do. :twocents:
Oh, I have no doubt you would. Hahaha.
First, I find it disgusting that you think it is funny this man and family's life has been ruined for protecting their property when WDFW knew there was wolf problems brewing and failed to do anything.
If the man tried to get the WDFW to take action and they refused, he should not be held responsible for their failure to protect his herd. Everyone in the state knows the WDFW biologists have been lieing about wolves to protect them. The only reason there is any action is that citizens started collecting data so the WDFW is forced to admit there are wolves.
If it was proven biologists knew about the wolves and failed to help the White's, and then brought charges on them after they lost 6 or 7 calves, and after everyone has been told there are only coyotes in WA, those biologist should lose their jobs, that might likely be accomplished without a governor's help. My blood pressure is rising just thinking about this and I can't wait for White's case to be over so we can find out the facts. We all know you can't get the facts from the wolf biased WDFW or the biased media.
Here is a photo of one such lie. This cow was declared a wolf kill until the wolf-loving biologist arrived and declared it wasn't a wolf kill.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 08, 2012, 06:26:49 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 06:47:12 PM
Post by: villageidiot on April 08, 2012, 07:20:50 PM
Post by: reggart on April 08, 2012, 07:39:16 PM
You talk to any Idaho Fish and Game representative and they will tell you they are just as pissed as we are. But don't believe their crap, they were aware of it and in on it from the beginning, all you have to do is read the old newspaper clippings. I guarantee you the WDFW guys will be telling you in 5 years that it was the feds that did this to us but don't forget the truth, the WDFW are welcoming these alien land sharks from Canada with open arms. Don't ever believe for one second that some book reading desk jockey who spends 10% of their time actually walking through the woods while the remainder of their time is spent in their new tax funded vehicles, helicopters and in their cushy offices has a better understanding of what our ecosystems need than a wiry old hunter who spends every available minute out in the wild. They just don't get it guys and they play by a different set of rules than you do.
Talk to your family and friends in Idaho and Montana, they will tell you how bad it is going to get. Many of them are still in shock and disbelief that it happened right in front of their eyes.
Post by: danderson on April 08, 2012, 07:41:49 PM
spoken like a true city feller, shows just how missinformed they really are, just ask the Washington State DOT were all the road kills end up :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
Quote
I"ve heard that "bury your animals" story a lot. Has anybody tried to get off the plowed road with a tractor in the winter? The snow is 2 to 3 foot deep and then try and dig through the frozen ground. I'ts impossible. Try to dig a hole with a front end loader on a tractor. You'll be a half a day digging a hole big enough for a cow. Most farmers I know have junker tractors that would be a major job to dig a hole that big without breaking the old tractor down. What's wrong with letting the crows and eagles clean it up? Seems like a top notch environmentally friendly way to support the bird population.
You ahve to remember that this is coming from a guy that suggested that range animals (cattle) were going to all be protected by shepherds and dogs or something along those lines in another thread. I have a feeling he knows just about as much about cattle as he does wolves.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:06:34 PM
As far as my suggestion, hey, at least I try to come up with a solution. Standing around bitching with your thumb up your ass gets you nowhere. It's called being proactive and thinking with positive attitude. If you let negativity get to you, then there' never will be a solution. Keep your head up and move forward. Nothing stays gold, and the seasons are always changing. Nothing is definite. I'm for wolves, but even i see the major flaws being made by the feds just like you do. They shouldn't shrug off your reports and think you guys will forget about it. Whether they are acknowledging to the public the actual wolf numbers, eh, I can see why they would. The government is known for it's control on information.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:09:13 PM
QuoteI"ve heard that "bury your animals" story a lot. Has anybody tried to get off the plowed road with a tractor in the winter? The snow is 2 to 3 foot deep and then try and dig through the frozen ground. I'ts impossible. Try to dig a hole with a front end loader on a tractor. You'll be a half a day digging a hole big enough for a cow. Most farmers I know have junker tractors that would be a major job to dig a hole that big without breaking the old tractor down. What's wrong with letting the crows and eagles clean it up? Seems like a top notch environmentally friendly way to support the bird population.
You ahve to remember that this is coming from a guy that suggested that range animals (cattle) were going to all be protected by shepherds and dogs or something along those lines in another thread. I have a feeling he knows just about as much about cattle as he does wolves.
being that i volunteer for a farm, yes, i do know alittle bit about cattle. And my uncle owns a giant cattle farm in Tulare, CA, so I have been around it.
As far as protection, again, just a proactive suggestion. It's would hurt to hire shepherds and have livestock guardian dogs, now would it? Nothing is failsafe, but everything is worth giving a try.
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 08:12:11 PM
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:18:59 PM
I have voiced to the department many times that the way they are treating the farming community and the cold shoulder attitude is only going to cause more resentment. I even voiced this in a testimony that they need to take the opposition alot more seriously and be more willing to work with them.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:22:00 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
Post by: woodman on April 08, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
One of the biggest conflicts with as much emotion as possible put aside Humanure is that they are not listening to those that are effected. Policy is being made by folks that haven't a clue about ecosystems, niches, rural america etc. It is being rammed down peoples throats, and you know what, they are going to regurgitate it right back on them. Unfortanately an agenda is doing A LOT of collateral damage.
boneaddict, I agree with what you are saying here. I truly believe that government gets away with many things because there is not direct instant impact on a vast majority of people when it wants to make laws or regulations. They make a argument that sounds good on the surface such as feel good words. Later when people encounter some regulation that seems so wrong because now they see the impact that it actually has, it is too late. I have always felt that if people encountered the effects of what truly is happening with new regulations at the same time, government could not slide things into place without a huge majority outcry.
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 08:36:34 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2012, 08:39:35 PM
Also, i looked into what it takes to work for the department. You DO have to know about ecosystems and wildlife biology to be one of them. They don't just hire anybody, their requirements are quite stringent and high.How much of their hiring is based off degree and how much on experience? Someone can be good at test taking and get a degree...and know the theory of ecosystems; but need to burn boot leather to actually know what's going on...or have someone that is feed them good data.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
Also, i looked into what it takes to work for the department. You DO have to know about ecosystems and wildlife biology to be one of them. They don't just hire anybody, their requirements are quite stringent and high.How much of their hiring is based off degree and how much on experience? Someone can be good at test taking and get a degree...and know the theory of ecosystems; but need to burn boot leather to actually know what's going on...or have someone that is feed them good data.
I can't really say, because what it takes is so daunting that I gave up on any idea of joining and didn't read it all. I would imagine field experience would be required.
No one party is completely right or wrong. To differing degree's, we all have our heads up our ass' a bit, and no one side will completely win. Thats the hard truth of it all. The best we can do is try to work together, no matter how dim the future looks. As much as you guys feel resentment towards the department and environmentalist crack-pots, the other side throws back just the same kind of negative attitude, but that doesn't deter me from trying to work and find solutions. I've received death threats and the coldest of shoulders from the opposition, but hey, can't win em all, right? For me this whole time of my involvement, if you think positive, you will feel positive. That helps you to work even harder than before on reaching your goal. Even if i disagree with ya'll, I suggest the same to you to reach your success.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 08:45:10 PM
sort of like cats snatching kids out of the city park, or coons infiltrating and overrunning your garage. Who are they going to call to take care of it. That was a single LARGE blow and that is like comparing Hiroshima to the possible damage one of todays Nuclear warheads compared to what the wolves are doing or are going to do
Uh, sorry if i don't understand, but could you elaborate?
Post by: Tbar on April 08, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
Now my two cents on mr. White, I don't know him personally but have a ton of respect for him. I have family in the Methow and they know the man personally, his respect is earned before and after this case.
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 09:00:56 PM
Post by: humanure on April 08, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
Post by: dscubame on April 08, 2012, 09:39:38 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2012, 10:08:42 PM
Post by: Moose22 on April 09, 2012, 06:19:37 AM
I was referring to the ban on trapping and hound hunting, which essentially came from King county in the initiative process from people who really have no clue what either is(but rammed it down everyone elses throat). Wildlife management by popular opinion versus fact. They voted and many started to suffer the consequences. That was a drop in the bucket compared to what this wolf project will do.
Bone, you are so right. It is not going to take long for the ramifications to take effect with the wolf project.
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2012, 07:12:36 AM
I voice my opinion on the same stages as everyone else. I do not know any of the bio's and have no behind the scenes contact with anyone official. My voice is public, not private. I believe that it is my criticism of them that would keep me at arm's length with them even if i did try to edge my way in with them. Hell, I bet they read what I say here and put me in the catagory as someone to avoid association with, being that I criticize more than half of the current wolf plan.
Can you list and clarify your objections to the current wolf plan? Apparently i have not paid close enough attention to see them.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 06:54:50 PM
Being 'hands off' about wolves populating one area faster than the rest is stupid. If we have to go with their plan, let's get this *censored*ing timeline started, which won't start until all proposed area's have reached their breeding pair goal.
The proposed land-bride idea is laughable at best. It better be a *censored* huge bridge if that may be.
There's other critiques but I am tired from work and don't feel like going over the whole plan and what i feel is wrong.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 06:56:15 PM
Post by: reggart on April 09, 2012, 08:18:48 PM
You need to study up a little on the endangered species act. If you did your homework you would find that you cannot try to introduce an experimental non essential species until you first determine there is not an existing native population of the species. So if what your saying is true then the feds broke the law day one when they introduced those aliens into the Kelly Creek drainage, which means these idiots that you support didn't even follow their own rules. By the way, another point I will debate is that the Canadian Grey Wolf is not a reintroduction, as commonly referred, it was an introduction as stated above. The original wolf species in the Pacific Northwest was a much smaller wolf that the locals called a brush wolf (not to be confused with the midwest or back east brush wolf which is the same as a coyote) and due to the nature of the grey wolf to quickly eradicate any local canine population to eliminate the competition, it is probably safe to say the original Brush Wolf is now truly extinct.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 09:36:46 PM
And BTW, people keep accusing the state of planting wolves, but have yet to present evidence when asked for it. Did I miss something and it's been substantiated? Or is it still just an accusation? I've heard about a certain lumber company illegally releasing wolves to cut down ungulates eating their sapling they depend on to harvest later, but evidence of that has yet to surface.
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2012, 09:44:35 PM
"But, BUT! Canadian Gray wolves have traveled back and forth over the border, as did the Cascades Mountain/Brush wolf. You have to remember, wolves and other wildlife do not recognize borders. It's the same as Canadian Gray's and southern Red wolves sharing territory in the northeastern states. In both cases, the sub-species of the south were exterminated and the northers broadened their territories without conflict. It's awefully common sensical and a fact that for some reason keeps getting swept under the rug."
Wolves have been in this state over the last 30 years. There are lots of sitings that have documented in the newspapers. Maybe not concrete proof, but like you said wolves don't know borders. So how can they be here and endangered at the same time?
The other conundrum is the lack of importance of subspecies. Canadian grey wolves are not the same as native timer wolves. We hunters have heard that subspecies are not important, but it is... It seems its only important for salmon and Red wolves but not Timber wolves...
Those 2 issues tear large holes in the need for Gray wolves and uses ESA's own logic... One of the many reasons i think this whole thing is BS.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2012, 09:52:16 PM
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 09:53:12 PM
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2012, 09:55:00 PM
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 09:57:57 PM
The fact that the native species is gone is not something that will sway them to feel we don't need wolves. Apex predators excluding humans is something that was wrongfully removed(instead of managed). Thats why they are allowing Grizz to repopulate. Sorry, but sometimes results are swayed against what hunters/farmers want, and sometimes not. It's kind've how democracy works, which is why public testimony and voting is important to be involved with.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 10:03:14 PM
Post by: Special T on April 09, 2012, 10:05:27 PM
Post by: JLS on April 09, 2012, 10:09:05 PM
You have to realize, the hunting community is a SMALL aspect to most people when they view this state. The community is not infalleble. You cannot come off with an attitude that says you determine what is right and wrong for the environment and everyone who disagree's is a 'city-slickin greener'. You have no idea how bad statements like that hurt you. It makes you seem like unreasonable crack-pots who selfishly don't care about anything but killing wildlife. You have to play the PR game alot smarter. Granted, this is a hunting site, but it is public, and people do monitor these places.
There is a lot of truth to this statement. There is a very large portion of the public that does not hunt but is NOT anti-hunting. This is the core group that will determine the future of hunting in this state, and any other for that matter. Colorado has suffered from ballot box regulation of hunting also, as has CA and OR. It's not just here and it won't get any better.
Post by: humanure on April 09, 2012, 10:15:07 PM
First off this is a Republic, for a little while longer, and Second the state goes to great lengths to keep out invasive species that are not indigenous to the area. Mil foil, Zebra muscles, Nutria, Starlings, Do i need to go on? Law is based on logic, and doesn't change as we go. 2+2=4 no matter how many times you tell people its 5.
You keep saying invasive, non-indigemous, when there is no basis(to my knowledge) to prove that Washington wasn't part of Canadian Gray wolves territory before.
Post by: Killmore on April 10, 2012, 08:05:19 AM
Post by: humanure on April 10, 2012, 06:55:56 PM
Post by: humanure on April 10, 2012, 07:53:40 PM
And BTW, people keep accusing the state of planting wolves, but have yet to present evidence when asked for it. Did I miss something and it's been substantiated? Or is it still just an accusation? I've heard about a certain lumber company illegally releasing wolves to cut down ungulates eating their sapling they depend on to harvest later, but evidence of that has yet to surface.
Nothing to say to this at all?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 10, 2012, 08:05:31 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 10, 2012, 08:11:54 PM
Quote
Nothing to say to this at all?
At this point is really doesn't matter. They are in almost every corner of the state. Now what are you going to do? If they didn't have help they sure moved fast.
Post by: humanure on April 10, 2012, 08:15:47 PM
And yes, they do move fast. Dispersers can traverse hundreds and hundreds of miles in short amounts of time to find/create a new pack. Washington never needed help with having wolves return. It's quite easily done by itself naturally.
Post by: reggart on April 10, 2012, 08:23:24 PM
Humanure, you just stated my biggest complaint.
"But, BUT! Canadian Gray wolves have traveled back and forth over the border, as did the Cascades Mountain/Brush wolf. You have to remember, wolves and other wildlife do not recognize borders. It's the same as Canadian Gray's and southern Red wolves sharing territory in the northeastern states. In both cases, the sub-species of the south were exterminated and the northers broadened their territories without conflict. It's awefully common sensical and a fact that for some reason keeps getting swept under the rug."
Wolves have been in this state over the last 30 years. There are lots of sitings that have documented in the newspapers. Maybe not concrete proof, but like you said wolves don't know borders. So how can they be here and endangered at the same time?
The other conundrum is the lack of importance of subspecies. Canadian grey wolves are not the same as native timer wolves. We hunters have heard that subspecies are not important, but it is... It seems its only important for salmon and Red wolves but not Timber wolves...
Those 2 issues tear large holes in the need for Gray wolves and uses ESA's own logic... One of the many reasons i think this whole thing is BS.
Post by: reggart on April 10, 2012, 08:27:17 PM
Oh yes there is. It's called cyanide poppers and lots of them. That is what it took to knock them back to begin with (utilizing tax payer coffers) and that is the only thing that is going to control them this time around. Once we can get someone with some brains and some real money to beat these guys at their own game by proving that they broke the law to begin with then we might have a slim chance of getting this problem back to reality.
To be honest, the sub-species isn't the deciding factor now that we are here today because there is NO reversing. AT ALL. They are here, they've adapted, now we have to. They are not endangered in Canada, but thats a different human territory. Does that make it harder than it has to be? Sure, but we don't always agree with how laws and governments work, now do we?
Post by: humanure on April 11, 2012, 04:59:27 AM
Oh yes there is. It's called cyanide poppers and lots of them. That is what it took to knock them back to begin with (utilizing tax payer coffers) and that is the only thing that is going to control them this time around. Once we can get someone with some brains and some real money to beat these guys at their own game by proving that they broke the law to begin with then we might have a slim chance of getting this problem back to reality.
GOOD LUCK making something like that legal again.
My point exactly. They can't have it both ways. Either the brush wolf was truly extinct thus necessitating an experimental non-essential introduction or there was a native population abeit small and if that is the case then they broke the law.
You know what? We will never know. The wolves we have today are a mix of Canadians that came from the north at some point(whether it was after the Brush wolf was extinct or it's been here the whole time), Canadians that migrated from Yellowstone, and MAYBE, we'll never know for sure, but some might be a mix of Canadian Gray and Casacades Mountain/Brush wolf.
Post by: Special T on April 11, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Post by: hirshey on April 11, 2012, 11:15:05 AM
You have to realize, the hunting community is a SMALL aspect to most people when they view this state. The community is not infalleble. You cannot come off with an attitude that says you determine what is right and wrong for the environment and everyone who disagree's is a 'city-slickin greener'. You have no idea how bad statements like that hurt you. It makes you seem like unreasonable crack-pots who selfishly don't care about anything but killing wildlife. You have to play the PR game alot smarter. Granted, this is a hunting site, but it is public, and people do monitor these places.
Somewhat off topic, but I was watching Jeopardy the other night and they had the question: "this mountain range is the proposed boundary for a new state in the NW United States". It was the Cascade range, and the proposed change in statehood pertained to Washington, largely because of the disparity in viewpoints from east to west. If you broke the state at the cascade crest, you would have a significantly larger population of hunters in the areas most affected by wolf repopulation... just sayin'. :)
Post by: bearpaw on April 11, 2012, 11:23:03 AM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 11, 2012, 11:24:15 AM
Post by: Goomsba on April 11, 2012, 03:21:23 PM
:yeah: I would certainly support "Eastern Washington" as a new state, our politics would be so much better. :tup::yeah: :tup:
Post by: sooperfly on April 11, 2012, 03:35:55 PM
Would be a challege for sure. Currently we gain much more in taxes that we contribute.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2FCityLead-CLICK.jpg&hash=10046efdb55d5df1ca47d7a1221ec699c60ddce0)
Post by: bearpaw on April 11, 2012, 03:45:50 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 11, 2012, 04:42:59 PM
Quote
Over the latter half of the 20th century (and reportedly as far back as 1889), the counties of Eastern Washington have occasionally raised the possibility of splitting largely conservative and rural Eastern Washington (and sometimes the Idaho Panhandle) away from urban and liberal Western Washington. As recently as 2005, this has been officially proposed in the state legislature, amid the fallout of the 2004 governor's election. Suggested names for such a state include East Washington, Columbia, Lincoln, and Cascadia.Good Luck. How about just make King, Pierce, Thurston their own state and leave the rest?
Post by: bobcat on April 11, 2012, 04:50:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_partition_proposals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_partition_proposals)QuoteOver the latter half of the 20th century (and reportedly as far back as 1889), the counties of Eastern Washington have occasionally raised the possibility of splitting largely conservative and rural Eastern Washington (and sometimes the Idaho Panhandle) away from urban and liberal Western Washington. As recently as 2005, this has been officially proposed in the state legislature, amid the fallout of the 2004 governor's election. Suggested names for such a state include East Washington, Columbia, Lincoln, and Cascadia.Good Luck. How about just make King, Pierce, Thurston their own state and leave the rest?
No thanks, I'm in Thurston.
How about Pierce, King, Snohomish, Skagit, Whatcom, Island, and San Juan.
Post by: MuleySniper on April 11, 2012, 05:09:24 PM
MS
Post by: Knocker of rocks on April 11, 2012, 05:28:35 PM
One of the problems we'd face in Eastern Washington is coming up with enough tax money to support what's currently in place.
Would be a challege for sure. Currently we gain much more in taxes that we contribute.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2FCityLead-CLICK.jpg&hash=10046efdb55d5df1ca47d7a1221ec699c60ddce0)
Not to mention the lack of population: Eastern Washington has a population of 21% of the states total. Remove Yakima and Spokane Counties, and that drops to about 11%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Washington
Post by: Knocker of rocks on April 11, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
How about Pierce, King, Snohomish, Skagit, Whatcom, Island, and San Juan.
Clark would bolt for Oregon, and the hispanic population centers would gain even more political clout.
Post by: hirshey on April 11, 2012, 06:21:18 PM
Well it looks like humanure is getting what he wants. Now this thread is heading in a whole another direction. Pinning east vs. west making a bigger debacle out of the original topic.
MS
Nah, that was my fault.. Although the thread was already off topic.
Post by: bearpaw on April 11, 2012, 06:27:10 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 11, 2012, 09:06:06 PM
Post by: seth30 on April 11, 2012, 09:34:41 PM
Actually he's getting just what he wants by getting a bunch of folks riled up and making rediculous statments about wolves, wolf poaching, and negative hunter attitudes. The wolf posts lately have been getting pretty far out...:yeah:
Post by: ghosthunter on April 11, 2012, 10:06:34 PM
Play nice with us and we will agree to dlisting. But that day will never come without them fighting it.
So why play, they have proven in every other state that they will never support delisting.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 12, 2012, 06:49:41 AM
The whole trouble is, we let pack establish and meet the quota. The wolf people will still fight delisting. Regardless of how many wolves there are.Have a sound plan that meets the legal burden and requirements and they cannot stop it. CNW is not going to try to stop it, they've made it clear that management (hunting) will occur when the pack #'s are met.
Play nice with us and we will agree to dlisting. But that day will never come without them fighting it.
So why play, they have proven in every other state that they will never support delisting.
Post by: boneaddict on April 12, 2012, 02:43:21 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 12, 2012, 04:32:15 PM
I thought Wyoming was NUTS, but I guess they had it figured out...me too... I am shocked and encouraged by WY.
Post by: bearpaw on April 12, 2012, 09:46:56 PM
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/print.php?art_id=8451&pid=news
G&F targets 98 wolves
By Cory Hatch, Jackson Hole Daily
Date: April 12, 2012
Hunting and other causes of death should reduce Wyoming’s wolf population outside Yellowstone National Park to roughly 170 wolves and 15 breeding pairs by next December, officials said Tuesday.
That computation assumes the predator is removed from Endangered Species Act protection in the state next fall as planned. Wildlife managers say there are currently about 270 wolves and more than 19 breeding pairs in Wyoming outside of Yellowstone.
Wyoming Game and Fish officials made the comments before a crowd of about 100 people at a meeting about proposed wolf hunting regulations.
Hunters would be allowed to kill 52 wolves in Wyoming’s trophy game area next fall under hunting regulations proposed by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department. Other mortality, including management removals, poaching and vehicle collisions, would bring the total to 98 dead wolves.
About 10 percent of Wyoming’s wolf population lives in the state’s predator zone where they could be killed at any time without a license.
Harvesting 52 wolves is a conservative approach that ensures the state will keep its commitment to managing for a minimum of 100 wolves and 10 breeding pairs outside of Yellowstone, biologist Ken Mills said.
“Our objective is to manage for wolves with a buffer,” Mills said. “What we’re are doing is managing the population high enough over the minimum recovery level so that we can account for unanticipated mortality. There are very serious implications for us falling below 10 [breeding pairs] and 100 [wolves].”
Population data show that the requirement to maintain 10 breeding pairs likely will require more than 100 wolves.
“We’re not going to be able to manage for 105 wolves and have 10 breeding pairs,” Mills said. “We have start conservative because we know that 100 wolves does not always equal 10 breeding pairs.”
Some members of the audience said the state should kill more wolves in the 12 hunt areas clustered in the northwest corner of the state, especially in hunt areas north of Jackson where some blame wolves for a declining ratio of elk calves. But most said they supported Wyoming’s wolf management plan and the Wyoming Game and Fish Department.
“I do have concerns about that quota,” said Jesse Rodenbough, an outfitter and ranch manager based out of Moran. “I have great confidence in you, the red shirt team, managing these wolves and I support you 100 percent.”
Other outfitters said the wolf’s return is hurting the local economy.
“Since the gray wolf has arrived, it’s been going downhill,” Gros Ventre outfitter Glenn Taylor said. “The first thing I do when I get up in the morning is check to see if my dog is still alive. Game and Fish, they’re the best neighbors we have and we need to get behind them and move forward.”
However, conservation groups raised a number of issues with the hunting regulations and Wyoming’s wolf management plan.
Language in both documents that seems to give the state jurisdiction over wolf hunting in the John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway — a National Park Service unit — is likely illegal, said Sharon Mader, Grand Teton program manager for the National Parks Conservation Association. Game and Fish officials included the parkway as part of a hunt area, but said hunting would not be allowed on the 24,000-acre park unit in 2012.
“It appears that the state of Wyoming and the Game and Fish Commission has acted beyond their authority in terms of including the JDR specifically in the trophy game management area,” Mader said. “The National Park Service has management authority for wolves within the parkway.”
Grand Teton National Park and the parkway “should be removed from the trophy game management area,” Mader said.
Wolves that reside in Grand Teton National Park for part of the year also could be killed, said Chris Colligan, a wildlife advocate for the Greater Yellowstone Coalition.
“It would be a good addition to this wolf management plan to have a subunit with a minimum number of wolves that helps protect some of those park wolves that would leave the park and would be subject to hunting,” Colligan said.
Visit www.gf.state.wy.us to see the draft regulations. Public comments will be accepted until April 23. Comments can be submitted to Wyoming Game and Fish Department, Attn.: Wolf Regulation Comments, 3030 Energy Lane, Casper, WY 82604.
Post by: sooperfly on April 18, 2012, 08:37:05 AM
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/apr/18/in-brief-couple-plead-guilty-in-wolf-pelt-case/
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 18, 2012, 11:11:17 AM
Post by: humanure on April 18, 2012, 08:10:18 PM
http://www.conservationnw.org/news/scat/lookout-wolf-poaching-photos-released
Post by: SpringerFan on April 18, 2012, 08:14:55 PM
:yeah: I would certainly support "Eastern Washington" as a new state, our politics would be so much better. :tup:
My wife and I would move in heartbeat!!!! I am out of place on the Westside. Tree hugging, wolve loving democrats suck!!!
Post by: stuckalot on April 18, 2012, 09:14:25 PM
One of the problems we'd face in Eastern Washington is coming up with enough tax money to support what's currently in place.
Would be a challege for sure. Currently we gain much more in taxes that we contribute.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fdepts.washington.edu%2Fgeog%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2FCityLead-CLICK.jpg&hash=10046efdb55d5df1ca47d7a1221ec699c60ddce0)
1- Part of the discrepency in money coming back from the state is to fund assinine mandates that they have forced on counties without the revenue base to support them, or any need for them in the first place!
2- I would gladly take less "state" money in return for self determination, and a state government that reflects the values of Eastern Washington!
Post by: stuckalot on April 18, 2012, 09:17:30 PM
We could get rid of 3/4 off the handouts, most of the socialist programs, the takers would leave and providers would be left, our economy would boom, and we'd be money ahead. :twocents:
:tup: :yeah:
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 04:01:52 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 04:04:20 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 04:05:05 PM
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 04:06:15 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 04:06:44 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 04:14:43 PM
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 04:18:20 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 04:48:04 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 04:59:29 PM
I don't believe the fine handed to them and no jail time is enough punishment, in my opinion. The government needs to set an example and show that poaching from someone who is supossed to uphold the law as a hunter's ed instructor will not be tolerated. So no, i don't think they've been through 'enough'.
You can say whatever you want about my motives, I've stated them already and don't feel a need to reiterate. My attitude on this thread isn't so much to do with the Whites actions, but a stupifying defense of willful lawbreaking from people who on more than one account broke MAJOR laws. Those being friends with the guy aside, the guy made actions that only the most vindictive, careless person would and to DEFEND those actions? Not the person, but the actions. Can't say I'm not alittle blown away to hear this from people trying to protect their rights as hunters. Standing behind what this guy did is only going to give hunting a worse name and more privileges taken away.
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 05:18:44 PM
I am not part of any 'type' or 'kind'. I am who I am. i have my own set of belief's and opinion's that NO ONE dictate's to me. I'm a dweller of the woods my whole life(besides one year in the city). I believe in self-sustainability with a watchful eye on the impact you create with a selfless understanding. I don't make an opinion or choose a side based on how some group or demographic feel's, I base them on how -I- feel, on what -I- think, on what -I- believe. I believe in hunting, but am critical of the idea of a 'sportsman'. I don't have respect in making hunting a 'sport'. That's just egoism and serves no one but yourself. I believe in being aware of the past, what led to the present and the routes we take to the future. I support farming, but am critcal of tactics used in farming at the health of the land's expense. I could go on but I'm sure by now you are thinking "Blah, blah, blah".
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 05:21:04 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 05:23:52 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 05:26:02 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 19, 2012, 05:29:29 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 05:30:21 PM
NO.
Till I'm put on 'ignore' from everyone or get bored, I'm here to stay.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 05:40:21 PM
Humanre wants nothing to do with the repopulation of the wolves. He wants our type and his type to stay divided so that no solutions are ever met. It doesn't matter what either party wants its about what the ecosystem needs to sustane Alice of all kinds including humans. He post outlandish accusations of this family who's been put through enough with the courts that's why they are there to punish and serve justice. You aren't the courts humanure. Spread you lies and hate to another forum where you don't look as ignorant to the unknowing reader. They won't fly here.
Not a care in the world about the wolves just likes to complain. whoa is me even the wooffers hate me. I have no pity.
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 05:46:33 PM
The problem with trying to teach Balance is you get both extremes pissed at you! :D Well you know what? Both Extremes? you guys go figure it out I am going out to get my calves and sheep with my dogs and then I am having lamb loaf for dinner! Good luck with everything, hope it works out for ya! :)
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 19, 2012, 06:33:49 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 19, 2012, 06:55:26 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 07:02:39 PM
Quote
It should be taken into account that if the guys character is going to be slandered/defended on here, since we've all laid out reason's to support or damn the guy, some feel that Mr. White ALLEGEDLY is not a farmer in any commercial sense, who actually survives off his wife's income(which would somewhat negate the reason for poaching the wolves if he does not survive off his ranch), and treats people who have to access his land to get to their homes very inhospitably. Allegedly.
I am supposing that the "SOME" you refer to might possibly believe they are more productive to society than the Whites. :chuckle: I hope he isn't drinking coffee when he reads your post. Coffee sure hurts when it squirts out your nose and then makes a big mess on your computer.
Post by: JODakota on April 19, 2012, 07:08:27 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 07:09:42 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 07:12:05 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 07:13:31 PM
Humanure is full of chit and anybody that responds to his nonsense is enabling him. He's bored, lonely and probably lives off of hot pockets and playing xbox. He has probably done nothing purposeful in his life and gets off creating one sided argument's that cannot be won. He does this to feed his egotistical, self loathing mind. He is not a sheep farmer, he is a tool that is all he is. Humanure go do something constructive with your life and stop wasting your and our time on this forum.
Wrong on every account. Nice try though.
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 07:15:00 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 07:16:29 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 07:18:09 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 07:22:25 PM
Post by: JODakota on April 19, 2012, 07:23:38 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 07:26:25 PM
Post by: Curly on April 19, 2012, 07:26:43 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 07:29:09 PM
Question for you....
How many WILD wolves have you seen?
Post by: JODakota on April 19, 2012, 07:38:11 PM
Post by: mossback91 on April 19, 2012, 08:23:13 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 08:40:33 PM
Post by: mossback91 on April 19, 2012, 08:42:42 PM
Humanure do you have a girlfriend? Oh and your sheep do not count. Seriously you must not have much of a life for coming on here just to argue.
Baaaah means NO humanure!
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
Well Humanure, you lost credibility with me when you made the post about him not working etc.
I had credibility?!
But like I said, those were not my words. I was just showing you guys what others were saying that was different from your words. Like I said, it was alleged.
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 09:09:26 PM
Any answer on the wolf question I asked?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 19, 2012, 09:15:12 PM
"volunteer farming" though...you've got to be kidding. If you live in tha woods (as you proclaim) why the hell would you volunteer your time at someone elses farm??? If you get a minute my stalls could use picked. I'll teach you how and you can knock yourself out. Literally.
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 09:28:22 PM
As far as my volunteering goes, I don't live on a farm. All I raise is German Shepherds and chickens. I go to the farm I mentioned because I like the people there, I like to learn and I love to do volunteer work. When i do something not for a monetary gain, I feel pretty damn good about myself. i was a non-caring little *censored* growing up, and made some changes in my life that have been very beneficial to me.
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 09:34:18 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 19, 2012, 09:47:15 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 10:00:24 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 19, 2012, 10:16:20 PM
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 10:16:41 PM
But they seemingly come off like the wolves were putting them out on the streets, thats what irk's me. yes, property should be protected, when caught in the act. they went out after the wolves and trapped them. they did not kill them while chasing a steer.
And you know this how? You've spoken with the Whites, have you?! They lost cattle, reported it to the Bios, were mocked. They have about as much a chance catching one in the act of depredation as you do getting a clue, which is really not much of a chance.
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 10:27:28 PM
If you kept an eye on your livestock, you would. I've said before as the elders have stated, free-ranging is long gone. it only succeeded after predators were removed because people became too lazy to 'shepherd their flock'. Like I said, there's a sheep ranch in Minnesota between two or three sizable wolf pack, and have experienced little to no predations. Why? They shepherd their flock's and hve livestock guardian dogs that warn them of wolves in their presence.
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 10:30:24 PM
If you kept an eye on your livestock, you would. I've said before as the elders have stated, free-ranging is long gone. it only succeeded after predators were removed because people became too lazy to 'shepherd their flock'.
You really are absolutely clueless.
Post by: Special T on April 19, 2012, 10:32:26 PM
I wish there was a way to get the real story, because something just doesn't add up. I could believe that the WDFW threw the Whites to the wolves, and the whites took matters in to their own hands. I might not condone it, but understand... But Why ship the pelt anywhere? Doesn't make any sense to me. If i were in their shoes , digging a hole or burying the carcase makes more sense, but shipping it? :bash: Has to be more too it.... Wonder if they will speak out after they are done with their legal problems.
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 10:35:06 PM
They shipped the pelt in payment for a Canadian friend letting them illegally use his hunting tag to kill a moose and deer, which they later illegally brought back to the US. Or so were told. Semms plausable, though, with the evidence before us.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 10:39:42 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 10:43:16 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 19, 2012, 11:01:57 PM
Post by: humanure on April 19, 2012, 11:04:16 PM
Post by: Machias on April 19, 2012, 11:12:52 PM
Machias, your elevated blood pressure is wasted arguing with Dallas, I mean Humanure.
I wish there was a way to get the real story, because something just doesn't add up. I could believe that the WDFW threw the Whites to the wolves, and the whites took matters in to their own hands. I might not condone it, but understand... But Why ship the pelt anywhere? Doesn't make any sense to me. If i were in their shoes , digging a hole or burying the carcase makes more sense, but shipping it? :bash: Has to be more too it.... Wonder if they will speak out after they are done with their legal problems.
Your so right.
I do believe Bill will someday be able to discuss this with us. I am in no way saying they did not make mistakes, that they did not do wrong. I have made mistakes myself. All I am saying is they are not the horrible people the other side would have you believe. They are hard working folks who screwed up, they'll be the first to tell you that. I do think they felt they were backed into a corner. How they handled it was not the best and I'm sure if they could do it all over again they would have made better/different choices. All I hope is once they have paid their debt they can get on with their lives. I do think it's sad they have to pay $38,000 for something a person a few hundred miles to the north of them can do on a daily basis without a care in the world, or a person a couple of hundred miles to the east of them can do for $11. That makes no sense to me. Heck to the north of them there is a Canadian Provedence that will be killing 6000 wolves over the next 5 years or so, but just a little ways away a families life has been wrecked.
Post by: boneaddict on April 19, 2012, 11:57:58 PM
Post by: mossback91 on April 20, 2012, 01:46:10 AM
One might think I'm clueless, but whatev's. It's my opinion, you either take it or leave it. I was referring to actual farms that survive off their animals, not commercial cattle manufacturing plants.They shipped the pelt in payment for a Canadian friend letting them illegally use his hunting tag to kill a moose and deer, which they later illegally brought back to the US. Or so were told. Semms plausable, though, with the evidence before us.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: mossback91 on April 20, 2012, 01:49:34 AM
Post by: humanure on April 20, 2012, 02:07:10 AM
Post by: Curly on April 20, 2012, 07:18:41 AM
A few pages back a poster said they identified the problem to WDFW well in advance and over a period of time....and were repeatedly told 'there were no wolves' and offered no guidance/assistance(?) by the WDFW. I don't know the actual specifics or what was documented, but from that post it sounds like WDFW 'threw them to the wolves'.
:yeah:
If I were in their shoes and WDFW kept saying there were no wolves, I might have done the same thing.......except probably would have shipped the pelt to WDFW headquarters. :twocents: :)
(just joking)
But really, can you imagine how they must have felt, repeatedly getting told that they are crazy......there are no wolves? Or that isn't a wolf kill? I refuse to blame them for taking out some wolves that should be shot anyway. I'd say WDFW drove them to vigilantism.....and WDFW should share a little bit of blame here. :twocents:
Post by: MtnMuley on April 20, 2012, 09:24:26 AM
non-profit basis, 8 way and more crosses hardier specimens parasite resistance. brush fed off the natural landscape, free of drugs. Completely natural. make yarn out of the wool.
You've spoke more than enough in this one post for me to make a perfect assumption of the person you are. Now go back and sit on Mitch's lap. :) .......and NO, I'm not :sry: ;)
Post by: Curly on April 20, 2012, 09:27:49 AM
Post by: Special T on April 20, 2012, 10:20:37 AM
Humanure, since you have been ringing the words of self sustainability a lot, Do you know what an Eathship is?
http://earthship.com/
I have been trying to figure out if one has been made in this state so that i can visit it... Any clue or direction?
Post by: humanure on April 20, 2012, 11:13:15 AM
non-profit basis, 8 way and more crosses hardier specimens parasite resistance. brush fed off the natural landscape, free of drugs. Completely natural. make yarn out of the wool.
You've spoke more than enough in this one post for me to make a perfect assumption of the person you are. Now go back and sit on Mitch's lap. :) .......and NO, I'm not :sry: ;)
?????? Sorry, but what the fukk are you babbling about, here?
Post by: humanure on April 20, 2012, 11:14:41 AM
When government creates a problem, does not listen to its citizens, and gives them no real action for relief, how can you expect an otherwise law abiding citizen to not become a "criminal"?
Humanure, since you have been ringing the words of self sustainability a lot, Do you know what an Eathship is?
http://earthship.com/
I have been trying to figure out if one has been made in this state so that i can visit it... Any clue or direction?
I heard about this years ago, but never looked into it.
Post by: MtnMuley on April 20, 2012, 12:30:46 PM
non-profit basis, 8 way and more crosses hardier specimens parasite resistance. brush fed off the natural landscape, free of drugs. Completely natural. make yarn out of the wool.
You've spoke more than enough in this one post for me to make a perfect assumption of the person you are. Now go back and sit on Mitch's lap. :) .......and NO, I'm not :sry: ;)
?????? Sorry, but what the fukk are you babbling about, here?
With your strong intellect and seemingly over-knowledgeable presence, I'd surely figure you'd be able to figure that out on your own. If that doesn't work, the words "Falcon Eddie", pretty much sum up my opinion. :DOH:
Post by: humanure on April 20, 2012, 02:12:32 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 20, 2012, 04:24:51 PM
I Think we should all put a pool together and help them out with there fine. It's the least we could do as fellow sportsmen.Machias, your elevated blood pressure is wasted arguing with Dallas, I mean Humanure.
I wish there was a way to get the real story, because something just doesn't add up. I could believe that the WDFW threw the Whites to the wolves, and the whites took matters in to their own hands. I might not condone it, but understand... But Why ship the pelt anywhere? Doesn't make any sense to me. If i were in their shoes , digging a hole or burying the carcase makes more sense, but shipping it? :bash: Has to be more too it.... Wonder if they will speak out after they are done with their legal problems.
Your so right.
I do believe Bill will someday be able to discuss this with us. I am in no way saying they did not make mistakes, that they did not do wrong. I have made mistakes myself. All I am saying is they are not the horrible people the other side would have you believe. They are hard working folks who screwed up, they'll be the first to tell you that. I do think they felt they were backed into a corner. How they handled it was not the best and I'm sure if they could do it all over again they would have made better/different choices. All I hope is once they have paid their debt they can get on with their lives. I do think it's sad they have to pay $38,000 for something a person a few hundred miles to the north of them can do on a daily basis without a care in the world, or a person a couple of hundred miles to the east of them can do for $11. That makes no sense to me. Heck to the north of them there is a Canadian Provedence that will be killing 6000 wolves over the next 5 years or so, but just a little ways away a families life has been wrecked.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 20, 2012, 05:22:50 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 20, 2012, 05:55:57 PM
Post by: Special T on April 20, 2012, 09:26:15 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 21, 2012, 08:14:07 AM
if you want all sportsmen to look like poachers in the eyes of the public a 'gift fund' is a perfect idea. I will not give a penny. The damage poachers do to the hunting community is substantial why the hell would you support that? :bdid:All you know is what you hear in the paper and in the news!! Not the truth. So go ahead and keep slandering and calling them poachers if that makes you feel better about your self.
Post by: danderson on April 21, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
Post by: sooperfly on July 12, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
http://methowvalleynews.com/story.php?id=8007 (http://methowvalleynews.com/story.php?id=8007)
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2012/jul/12/wolf-poachers-get-tougher-sentence-than-plea-deal/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2012/jul/12/wolf-poachers-get-tougher-sentence-than-plea-deal/)
Post by: Dirty Mike on July 12, 2012, 10:30:34 AM