Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 16, 2008, 07:40:30 AM
Post by: archery288 on June 16, 2008, 07:47:04 AM
Post by: Gobble on June 16, 2008, 08:12:07 AM
Post by: bucklucky on June 16, 2008, 08:30:50 AM
Post by: vanhornhunter on June 16, 2008, 08:44:58 AM
Post by: bullchaser on June 16, 2008, 09:44:11 AM
Post by: MagKarl on June 16, 2008, 09:50:43 AM
Post by: tlbradford on June 16, 2008, 10:13:48 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 16, 2008, 10:28:21 AM
Post by: viper55 on June 16, 2008, 10:32:02 AM
Post by: MIKEXRAY on June 16, 2008, 10:58:52 AM
Post by: addicted on June 16, 2008, 10:59:36 AM
Post by: boneaddict on June 16, 2008, 11:28:27 AM
Post by: Broken Arrow on June 16, 2008, 12:53:23 PM
Post by: addicted on June 16, 2008, 12:58:16 PM
Not sure I would ever take that shot with an elk, they are to tough....though I have had opportunities...I just wait for them to turn. However, with that said I have taken 2 shots on deer like that. The first was my very first archery deer. It was 20 yards....and I will never forget it. It was like someone turned on a garden house out of the brisket area.....blood was pumping out 4-5 feet....deer went maybe 30 feet and died. The second was one of the strangest things i have ever seen. I shot a whitetail buck at the top of a hill......as I was cresting.....and he was 7 yards away....it was so quick.....he popped his head up and all i had was a neck and head....i put my 20 yard pin right under his jaw...squeezed the release and he disappeared. I walked over and he was laying prone, with all 4 legs stiff in the air and the arrow went up his nose and stuck in the back of his skull....i just stared in disbelief....think he was paralyzed...so i stuck him in the jugular with my knife and he bled out.
dang. you got pics of that?
Post by: Intruder on June 16, 2008, 01:52:01 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on June 16, 2008, 05:05:38 PM
Post by: Hornseeker on June 16, 2008, 06:28:46 PM
Heavy Bow (65+)
Heavy Arrow (500+, preferrably 600+)
Close Range (no more than about 15-18 yards, closer better)
KNOW where to hit (he knows...I really dont)
Confidence
There are guys..and I actually think Bone is one of them...that just know how to kill an animal... some of these guys WILL take shots at about ANY angle...and will recover their game quickly...at least as often as "us" guys taking the so called, "ethical" shots...
Just my .02 (and the .02's of many friends)
PS...I also have other friends that have killed upwards of 20 elk with their bows that would never take a frontal.....again! :0)
Post by: MountainWalk on June 16, 2008, 09:09:35 PM
Post by: Opportunist on June 17, 2008, 08:47:18 AM
My first bull I called in to bow, of course he came in straight on so I took the shot at 12 yards trying to slip it in at the base of the neck into the brisket. I was ignorant. I got 4 inches of penetration and left the broadhead in the bull. No blood after a 100 yards, no recovery, a 5x4 bull was killed by a rifle hunter in the same area a month later with a broadhead buried in his brisket. Lesson learned the hard way, DON'T TAKE FRONTAL SHOTS. I'm a self taught bowhunter, in fact my dad hates bowhunting. So everything I've learned has been through hardknocks.
Five years later while bowhunting Eastern Oregon I called in a bull for a friend of mine. The nice 6 point was coming in on a leash but I called in a satelite spike that came into my right. The spike spooked and ran to the right. The 6 heard the spike run off so he switched direction at 40 yards towards the spike, which set me up for the shot. The bull stopped broadside slightly quartering towards on a steep hillside. The bull was at 30 yards and he saw me draw, so he was staring at me. When I released my fletching whirred and the bull whirled into the shot and I shot him in the throat. It was so quick I wasn't even sure where I hit him. We gave him thirty minutes and started tracking him out when I heard him start coughing, he only went 60 yards. I had shot him in the windpipe. This is what i call complete *censored*house luck that I killed that bull. A bulls ribs from the front are setup anatomically like a sheild from the front or quartering towards, very easy for an arrow to deflect left or right. The throat and jugulars combined are about a 3 inch target. Broadside double lung only on elk!
I'll never intentionally take a frontal shot!
Post by: GoldTip on June 17, 2008, 09:07:35 AM
Post by: vanhornhunter on June 17, 2008, 10:37:47 AM
http://www.inberg.ca/hunting_essentials/elk_anatomy_&_shot_placement.htm
Post by: bullchaser on June 17, 2008, 11:06:53 AM
Post by: Opportunist on June 17, 2008, 11:27:56 AM
Post by: boneaddict on June 18, 2008, 06:52:34 AM
Post by: Todd_ID on June 20, 2008, 03:12:55 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on June 20, 2008, 03:17:52 PM
Post by: Todd_ID on June 21, 2008, 09:28:54 PM
There's few other angles that give you a chance at heart, 1 lung, liver and a major artery. They pour out quick, but you've got to make the shot count. Anywhere inside the hollow of the collar bone (the same as you've got on your neck) will get to the heart as long as it's not too steep downhill: uphill shots will get an artery, lung and liver. There's no obstructions, and it's only about 11-12" into the heart from the front.
If there's any shake at all in your sight pins, then let down and hope for the broadside shot, though. A wounded animal would be a bad thing! (And, yes, I've lost animals with my bow, but never a frontal shot.)
Post by: bowhuntin on June 21, 2008, 09:54:29 PM
Post by: Opportunist on June 22, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
I don't care if it was shown on a video, there is alot of stupid *censored* on videos. I'm teaching my son to bowhunt this year and I'm using a handful of videos for my son to watch on how not to do it. Broadside double lung or slightly quartering away is the only shot on elk.
To me it's sad to even be discussing this with other bowhunters who regard it as a viable shot, I'd rather wait for the broadside shot and eat my tag than take a desperation shot like a frontal just to fill my tag. :twocents:
Post by: MIKEXRAY on June 22, 2008, 02:57:58 PM
Post by: Todd_ID on June 22, 2008, 10:56:49 PM
I agree that setup changes can be made to help from getting the head-on approach, but not all elk respond the same, so it still can happen. By all means don't take the shot unless you are certain you'll make a killing shot: same as a broadside shot. In the end, you are not the only one that has to live with the consequences; that elk, future calves from him or her, and other hunters' opportunities all must factor into your decision to shoot or not. Filling a tag has little to do with it; whether it's possible or not is what this thread is about.
Post by: bullchaser on June 22, 2008, 11:41:30 PM
Post by: bowhuntin on June 22, 2008, 11:46:08 PM
Post by: bullchaser on June 23, 2008, 12:03:12 AM
Post by: Elknut1 on June 23, 2008, 06:16:04 AM
No doubt, frontal shots are not to be taken lightly, it's a tough shot to pull off even for the more experienced elk hunter! The front head-on of an elk is built like the front of a boat, it's got that V-shape to it, most guys are trying to catch the main arteries there not so much a heart shot.I personally will let a bull walk if that's all that is offered. I have wounded a bull many years ago with a frontal shot at 17yds, it was my fault entirely. I purposely placed the shot to the right of center & I could tell from the arrows angle in him it it slid to the right of his heart hugging the leg area more than anything. Never found that bull after 6 hours of searching & a decent but not great blood trail. He took us straight up hill for 3/4 of a mile, bad sign!!!! I went back the next day & still found nothing!
No frontal shots for me!!!
However, do not confuse a quartering to you shot to a frontal shot! This is highly effective & doable even for trad shooters out to 20yds. It's a decent sized kill zone larger than a cantaloupe. I consider this a steep quartering shot head on, in other words if you can see the elks right side or left side of rear end & a slight quartering side of his chest you can slip an arrow between the brisket & front leg, yet under the scapula/shoulder blade, this means taking an elk from the ground with a mid height or a bit lower type shot. I've killed several bucks with this exact shot & 2 bulls, they don't go far. You have no more rib bone or muscle mass to penetrate than a broadside shot.
This is a shot for us at 20 yds or under with our recurves & longbows. I took my bull last year with this exact shot at 13 yds, it took out his heart with a wensel woodsman broadhead. You do have room for error, you don't have to hit a coffee cup sized target to pull it off.
I will add photos of an elks anatomy & of a bull I took 3 years ago with this same shot out of a Hoyt bow shooting 220fps & a magnus stinger 4-blade broadhead. That bull went less than 100yds. The key to taking any shot on elk is knowing their anatomy, leave the guessing at home, be 100% confident on any shot angle & your effective range.
I agree excitement & experience along with nerves of steel come into play on very close encounters, but broadside shots can cause this same excitement, aim small miss small. Know your target well before hitting the elkwoods!! If it's nothing but broadside shots, so be it. If you have other angles you are confident in then know them well & what it takes to up the percentages for quick clean kills. We do owe it to the animal, they're not pin cushions!!
I'm also including a photo of a bull we took with this quartering to you shot I spoke of.
http://www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/elk2.html look at the broadside skeleton photo, you can tell that there's no more rib bone to get through on that than the quartering to you shot I spoke of.
ElkNut1
Post by: boneaddict on June 23, 2008, 06:26:42 AM
re-read it.......got it!(problem about doing this at work. :)
I've got a calling question for you elknut, can I pm you?
Post by: Elknut1 on June 23, 2008, 06:41:48 AM
Doug, no problem! Feel free to do so!
ElkNut/Paul
Post by: Intruder on June 23, 2008, 07:53:58 AM
Perfect answer Opportunist, just what I was thinking.
+1
Post by: sdwwaverider on June 23, 2008, 03:26:32 PM
Post by: Intruder on June 25, 2008, 10:09:58 AM
However, do not confuse a quartering to you shot to a frontal shot! This is highly effective & doable even for trad shooters out to 20yds. It's a decent sized kill zone larger than a cantaloupe. I consider this a steep quartering shot head on, in other words if you can see the elks right side or left side of rear end & a slight quartering side of his chest you can slip an arrow between the brisket & front leg, yet under the scapula/shoulder blade, this means taking an elk from the ground with a mid height or a bit lower type shot.
Interesting.... I think I understand and am able to visualize what you're describing. If feasible could you post a photo of an elk in quartering position w/ the target zone marked.
Post by: Elknut1 on June 25, 2008, 01:08:40 PM
Intruder, I'll see what I can come up with? Not sure if I know how to post such a photo or not! (grin) I'll work on it! By the way we've taken 7 bulls in the last 5 years total with this quartering to you shot in our camp! Not a "frontal shot" We have not lost any to this angle. It's as deadly as a quartering away shot for comparison.
ElkNut1
Post by: Intruder on June 25, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
It makes sense. I guess what surprises me is the size of the area. I've never given it much thought but just off the cuff my impression would have been that you only have an opening 3" across. But you're sayin its more like 6-8" maybe? That would change my perspective about that for sure. Within 20 yards that's feasible. Hell, the areas I hunt it's likely to only be 10-20 anyway.
Post by: DeKuma on June 25, 2008, 01:44:26 PM
Post by: Intruder on June 25, 2008, 01:48:51 PM
Post by: DeKuma on June 25, 2008, 02:28:59 PM
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=709293
Post by: MIKEXRAY on June 25, 2008, 06:11:58 PM
Post by: BLUEBULLS on June 25, 2008, 06:28:19 PM
Post by: DeKuma on June 25, 2008, 06:49:32 PM