Post by: andersonjk4 on July 27, 2011, 11:43:57 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on July 27, 2011, 12:10:39 PM
BTW, I shoot el-cheapo Federal Power Shoks. If you go to their website and use the comparison feature you'll note very little change in trajectory from 150 to 180 grain. With both zeroed at 200 yards, there is a 0.3" difference at 100 yards, -0.8" at 300, and -1.8" at 400 yards.
Post by: Huntbear on July 31, 2011, 01:44:11 PM
For deer it varies for me.. brush country it is a .308 or 7mm-08 for short to med. length shots using 140-165 gr. bullets. For open country, I want med. sized bullets shooting fast and flat, so I go to my .257 A.I. Pushing 115-120 gr. bullets at 3000 fps or better. That being said, if I was going after monster muley, it would be my .338 WM all the way.. Anchor em fast and furious.
Post by: rtspring on July 31, 2011, 02:16:39 PM
Like someones quote on their post one here says, A rifle is only as good as the person who is shooting it.
I shoot a 300 RUM and shoot 180 Scirrocco's out of it. I dont get all fancy and play with reloading stuff, I buy the same bullets and shoot it every once in a while. I think the most important thing in todays rifle's capability is the shooters confidence in putting a bullet down range and knowing in his or her mind that the equipment is capable of the shot and so is the shooter.
I have not missed yet with this rifle, and each time I pull up on any game I know almost for certain that all of my homework will pay off with a hard hitting ethical kill shot.
Post by: True Sportsman on July 31, 2011, 02:58:45 PM
I've been contemplating this question for quite awhile. But after reading an article in this month’s Outdoor Life, "Bum Luck in Paradise", where Andrew Mckean writes about the .257 Weatherby Mag possibly being the best western big game caliber (on his hunt in Utah he is shooting 140 grain bullets at around 4000 fps for elk). This really got me thinking which really is better, mass or velocity? I have previously leaned more toward the "the bigger the animal the heavier the bullet should be" group. I shoot a .30-06 for both deer and elk. I have been shooting 165 grain bullets for both species because I usually don't have time to re-sight in my rifle between deer and elk season so I figured the 165 grain was a fair compromise for both species. This year I have been contemplating on going to a lighter bullet for deer (140 or 150 grains) and heavier bullet for elk (175 or 180 grain). But after reading this article it’s got me thinking about bullet weight and velocity. I know this is a very subjective question that really depends on the area you hunt and the rifle you are shooting, so to give a little perspective on my situation: I hunt elk in the Blues, where I would say that 70% of time I am looking at 200yd + shots. So what are your preferences on bullet velocity vs. bullet mass?
Your figures are a little off. No .257 Weatherby will shoot a 140 grain bullet at 4000fps. If i remember correctly, 85 grain bullets are only going 3700? Someone will have to chime in on this...
Post by: Kowsrule30 on July 31, 2011, 04:47:41 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on July 31, 2011, 05:24:19 PM
Post by: dontgetcrabs on July 31, 2011, 05:25:43 PM
I've been contemplating this question for quite awhile. But after reading an article in this month’s Outdoor Life, "Bum Luck in Paradise", where Andrew Mckean writes about the .257 Weatherby Mag possibly being the best western big game caliber (on his hunt in Utah he is shooting 140 grain bullets at around 4000 fps for elk). This really got me thinking which really is better, mass or velocity? I have previously leaned more toward the "the bigger the animal the heavier the bullet should be" group. I shoot a .30-06 for both deer and elk. I have been shooting 165 grain bullets for both species because I usually don't have time to re-sight in my rifle between deer and elk season so I figured the 165 grain was a fair compromise for both species. This year I have been contemplating on going to a lighter bullet for deer (140 or 150 grains) and heavier bullet for elk (175 or 180 grain). But after reading this article it’s got me thinking about bullet weight and velocity. I know this is a very subjective question that really depends on the area you hunt and the rifle you are shooting, so to give a little perspective on my situation: I hunt elk in the Blues, where I would say that 70% of time I am looking at 200yd + shots. So what are your preferences on bullet velocity vs. bullet mass?
Your figures are a little off. No .257 Weatherby will shoot a 140 grain bullet at 4000fps. If i remember correctly, 85 grain bullets are only going 3700? Someone will have to chime in on this...
As far as I know you can't get a .257 bullet heavier than 125 gr. and the max fps in a Roy with that bullet would be around 3300. :sry:
When I was younger I bought into the speed is king thing and as I've aged I have turned more to the heavy hard hitting school of thought. Maybe it makes me feel better to be hunting with something I can relate to... Big Fat Things Going Slow. :chuckle:
Post by: Alan K on July 31, 2011, 05:35:27 PM
Post by: TheHunt on July 31, 2011, 06:29:32 PM
But a 250 grain match king out of a 338 will knock the brown right out of a deer at a long distance as well. Just from my little knowledge that the heaver 250 grain bullet requires less wind doping then the 168 grain bullet.
Post by: predator guy on July 31, 2011, 07:01:18 PM
This topic will never die and always be argued from now to who knows when. I did alot of research on guns, bullets and such back before I bought my last rifle in 2004. I wanted a rifle that I could hunt anything in this state with and be able to do it at 500 yds if needed, without much effort and thought into ballisitics of the cartridge.My Dad has one, my Brother has one, I don't but I have seen first hand what this caliber does. It's more impressive at longer range shots. I have seen an Antelope nearly gutted at 730 yards using those Scirroco's. Very impressive.
Like someones quote on their post one here says, A rifle is only as good as the person who is shooting it.
I shoot a 300 RUM and shoot 180 Scirrocco's out of it. I dont get all fancy and play with reloading stuff, I buy the same bullets and shoot it every once in a while. I think the most important thing in todays rifle's capability is the shooters confidence in putting a bullet down range and knowing in his or her mind that the equipment is capable of the shot and so is the shooter.
I have not missed yet with this rifle, and each time I pull up on any game I know almost for certain that all of my homework will pay off with a hard hitting ethical kill shot.
Post by: throttlejocky20 on August 02, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2011, 11:19:49 AM
Post by: whacker1 on August 02, 2011, 11:46:52 AM
The common bullets for my .270 are 130, 140, or 150 grain bullets. I couldn't get the 150's to shoot very well. The 130's shot pretty good, but the 140's are by far the most accurate, so that is what I selected. With knowing that it shoots the best that I can get it to shoot, I feel the most confident in my shot placement.
I have a 300 RUM, and right now I am shooting the 168 grain bergers, because that is what shoots the best. I have tried heavier ones, but haven't found a combination to my liking just yet in the heavier bullets
If they are all equally as accurate then I would likely take the heaviest bullet in that class, and learn the balistics as best possible, and shoot it a lot.
Post by: steen on August 02, 2011, 02:12:17 PM
Post by: Kent Hunter on August 02, 2011, 02:32:07 PM
Post by: dawei on August 03, 2011, 09:45:08 AM
• Savage® 110L 30/06 w/180gr Speer® Grand Slam™ handload
• Marlin® 444SS w/290gr Beartooth® LFNGC Bullet handload
I use the 30/06 if I'm sitting a clearcut, otherwise it's the 444 most (90%) of the time.
Post by: alwinearcher on August 03, 2011, 10:01:33 AM
338 edge shooting a 300 grn SMK at right around 2900..
I haven't gotten a chance to test it on elk or deer yet, but it puts the hurt of bears and 1/2" steel plates! :chuckle:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 03, 2011, 03:55:39 PM
I'm going with the mass option..I think that s the best of both worlds...
338 edge shooting a 300 grn SMK at right around 2900..
I haven't gotten a chance to test it on elk or deer yet, but it puts the hurt of bears and 1/2" steel plates! :chuckle:
Post by: alwinearcher on August 03, 2011, 05:07:59 PM
:mgun: :mgun:I'm going with the mass option..I think that s the best of both worlds...
338 edge shooting a 300 grn SMK at right around 2900..
I haven't gotten a chance to test it on elk or deer yet, but it puts the hurt of bears and 1/2" steel plates! :chuckle:
Overkill? .... I think not!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 03, 2011, 05:21:16 PM
:mgun: :mgun:I'm going with the mass option..I think that s the best of both worlds...
338 edge shooting a 300 grn SMK at right around 2900..
I haven't gotten a chance to test it on elk or deer yet, but it puts the hurt of bears and 1/2" steel plates! :chuckle:
Overkill? .... I think not!
no such thing as overkill!
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 05, 2011, 09:07:53 AM
Your figures are a little off. No .257 Weatherby will shoot a 140 grain bullet at 4000fps. If i remember correctly, 85 grain bullets are only going 3700? Someone will have to chime in on this...
[/quote]
You're right I was going from memory and didn't have the article infront of me. I read the the article again and he was shooting a 120 grain Partition at over 3000 fps. 120 grains seems really light for elk to me. But he is claiming its the best caliber for ALL western big game. And he is the hunting editor for Outdoor Life, so that does have to say something about the cartridge.
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 05, 2011, 09:13:29 AM
:mgun: :mgun:I'm going with the mass option..I think that s the best of both worlds...
338 edge shooting a 300 grn SMK at right around 2900..
I haven't gotten a chance to test it on elk or deer yet, but it puts the hurt of bears and 1/2" steel plates! :chuckle:
Yeah I agree. 300 grains @ 3000fps!!! That is definitely the best of both worlds. That would put the hurt on pretty much anything... including the shooter.
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 09:29:55 AM
I was totally impressed with the performance of the 257 roy, and I will carry it this year or a 243 as I am due for shoulder surgery in sept...dang it! I will not feel the least handicapped by either as I have found from my own expierience that a well placed bullet of sund construction for the velocity it is traveling will yeild good results.
in all honesty, from the 243 to the 338 you are talking about 95 thousandths of one inch. that is the thickness of a piece of chewing gum.....it is not worth arguing about. imagine if somone came to you and said you were a fool because your gun shoots a bullet the thickness of a piece of paper different then theirs.......it happens every day.
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 10:11:11 AM
Assumptions:
-You are shooting a rifle YOU already shoot well
-You are shooting a single cartridge and the only variable is the bullet weight and associated velocities.
-My #’s are for a 210 grain and a 250 Grain Barnes TSX in a 338 Win Mag.
-200 yard zero
-The gun you are shooting had the right twist to stabilize a heavier bullet.
First I looked at some key variables:
Muzzle Velocity
We all know what this is. Generally, faster is considered better-but not always as accuracy and bullet performance can be impacted
Sectional Density
Best explanation I have heard is; which will penetrate deeper into the ground when dropped nose first from 10 feet, a two pound rod one inch in diameter, or a 2 pound rod that is 10 inches in diameter? Answer: the smaller diameter rod as it has less frontal surface area for the given weight. To get the two rods to penetrate the same depth, you would need to significantly increase the weight of the 10 inch diameter rod. Another way to look at this is, The more mass you have behind a smaller surface area, the deeper it penetrates when traveling at the same speed.
Muzzle energy
How much energy is a bullet carrying as it travels? More energy generally = better penetration for a given bullet.
Momentum
This is the variable I had never looked at. This explains why a slow fat bullet with low muzzle energy (think the 45 ACP) can penetrate better than a fast light bullet. The higher the #, the more momentum the bullet is carrying.
Here are some stats I ran on the 2 .338 bullets:
210 Grain TSX:
-MV= 2850fps
-Sectional Density = .263
-Muzzle Energy = 3788 Ft/Lbs
-Momentum = 85.5 lb/fps
250 Grain TSX:
-MV= 2700fps (5% slower than the 210 grain)
-Sectional Density = .313 (20% greater than the 210 grain)
-Muzzle Energy = 4048 Ft/Lbs (6.8% greater than the 210 grain)
-Momentum = 96.4 lb/fps (12.8% greater than the 210 grain)
So what this tells me (rounding the #’s) is that a 20% increase in bullet weight, will give me 7% more energy, and nearly 13% more momentum. All this translates into more penetration. An added benefit of a bullet carrying more momentum is that it is less likely to deflect should you hit a twig on the way to the target or a bone within your target.
But what about trajectory? (Inches of drop for given yardage by bullet type)
Yards 210 Grain 250 Grain Difference
50 0.7 0.9 0.2
100 1.8 2.1 0.3
150 1.6 1.8 0.2
200 0 0 0
250 -3 -3.4 -0.4
300 -7.8 -8.7 -0.9
350 -14.2 -15.8 -1.6
400 -22.7 -25.1 -2.4
500 -46.2 -51 -4.8
600 -80.2 -88.3 -8.1
The table above indicates that with a 200 yard zero, the bullets are within one inch of each other out to 300 yards. The lighter bullet does shoot flatter, but I don’t really see a noticeable difference until around 400 yards or so.
All this has led me to believe, that if you plan to take shots under 350 yards, once you select a cartridge and bullet type you like, pick the heaviest bullet your gun will shoot well and go with that.
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 10:19:43 AM
many people want to have a huge enrgy number, and while it is not a bad thing, it is largely unnecessary. it just does not take 1000 ft/lbs to push a .308" hole through a critter. I am not advocating hunting elephants with bb guns, but I have had the fortune of taking and seeing many animals killed. I always laugh at the minimum required to do the job guys. I have seen a bang flop from a 308win at a distance that nobody would believe.....heck, I would not have believed it with out seeing it.
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 10:21:40 AM
To me that is a personal choice based on:
-comfort with recoil
-confidence in the rifle
-etc.
The more interesting question to answer (I think), is that if you hold cartridge constant, what is better, more mass or less mass?
It should be a given that, within the legal limits of the law, folks should shoot what they have and what they feel most confident in putting a bullet on target with. Once you make that call, what do you look at then? Mass, bullet construction, and if you are a long range shooter, trajectory.
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 10:23:52 AM
rob, there is a tangent you need to consider. look at penetration depths vs velocity. often higher velocity equals lower penetration due to bullet upset.....hence my "right bullet for your velocity window". FWIW a 100gr .257 made a full pass through breaking the off side shoulder on a 300 plus yard poke.
many people want to have a huge enrgy number, and while it is not a bad thing, it is largely unnecessary. it just does not take 1000 ft/lbs to push a .308" hole through a critter. I am not advocating hunting elephants with bb guns, but I have had the fortune of taking and seeing many animals killed. I always laugh at the minimum required to do the job guys. I have seen a bang flop from a 308win at a distance that nobody would believe.....heck, I would not have believed it with out seeing it.
That is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make, thanks for doing it in far less words! this is where Momentum comes into play. Momentum and Sectional density are the #'s to look at to measure penetration. Velocity has little to do with it IMO. I'll cross post an example in a moment.
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 10:29:09 AM
So I am re-reading “the perfect Shot” by Kevin Doctari
https://www.safaripress.com/product.php?productid=434&cat=0&page=1 (https://www.safaripress.com/product.php?productid=434&cat=0&page=1)
The first 40 or so pages offers some of the best reading I have come across in terms of layman level discussion of ballistics as they pertain to hunting large game.
I am sure that what follows is a penetrating insight into the obvious for everyone else, but it clarified some things for me so I thought I’d share.
With Large game, especially African game, penetration is king. You want a bullet that you know will go through thick hides, heavy bones, and still reach the boiler room. I know I often look at energy when trying to compare different bullets for different applications-I have always known that this was not the best gauge, but I have not known why, nor have I known what other stats to use to help make such a decision. In the book, Kevin made the statement that Muzzle energy means very little when it comes to making such a decision and then provided some interesting insights.
When selecting a cartridge, he looks at three variables:
• Muzzle energy
• Sectional Density
• Momentum
To calculate these variables he uses Caliber, bullet weight and velocity
To illustrate his point, he did an interesting compare. (I am not using his #’s as I don’t have his book here in front of me, although I do have all his formulas used to calculate the #’s.) He took three cartridges in typical bullet weights and plugged in velocities such that all the bullets had similar muzzle energy. The rifles he used were a 30.06 Springfield, a 375 HH and a fictitious gun he called the 22 LR “super”. Here are the stats:
22 LR Super (again, this is a fake gun for illustrative purposes)
• 40 grain bullet, .224 caliber, traveling 6,600 FPS.
30.06 Springfield
• 220 grain bullet, .308 caliber, traveling 2,800 FPS
375 HH
• 300 grain bullet, .375 Caliber, traveling 2400 FPS.
These velocity/bullet weight combos yielded very similar Muzzle energy #’s:
• 22 LR Super 3,870 Ft/lbs
• 30.06 3,831 Ft/lbs
• 375 HH 3,838 Ft/Lbs
The question is, what would you rather shoot a charging Cape Buff with to get max penetration? I jump right to the 375 HH, but why? If I look at Muzzle energy alone, the answer would be, they are all the same.
Kevin next calculated Momentum and Sectional density.
• Sectional Density = Bullet Weight in Lbs/(Caliber squared)
o Sample: for 30.06 SD= ((220/7000)/(.308*.308)) = .331
• Momentum = (Bullet Weight * Velocity)/7000 Note: the 7000 is to convert grains to pounds
o Sample for 30.06 = (220*2800)/7000 = 88.0
30.06 375 HH .22 LR Super
Bullet Weight 220 300 40
Caliber 0.308 0.375 0.224
Velocity 2800 2400 6600
Sectional Density 0.331 0.305 0.114
Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs) 3831 3838 3870
Momentum Value (lb/FPS) 88.0 102.9 37.7
(The larger the momentum and Sectional Density #’s, the better the penetration.)
Now we are getting into how I am interpreting these #’s so I may be off.
I am assuming the following:
• Must be for Solids as I would assume penetration would be reduced for a bullet that expands
• Must assume that the bullet retains 100% of its weight
• Assumes penetration begins at the muzzle – one would need to lower the Velocity #’s to the down range distance that penetration begins.
So if I read this correctly, even though the SD on the 30.06 is the best (~9% greater than the 375 HH) and the Muz energy is about equal, the 375 HH shooting a heavier bullet at a slower speed will provide better penetration due to a momentum value that is 14% greater. (i.e. it is harder to stop so it goes further).
Oh yeah, and the “super” 22LR has pathetic penetration performance in spite of roughly equal muzzle energy, so it is “right out”
So my question would be, if the momentum value is greater for the 375 HH by 14%, does that mean that it will penetrate 14% deeper? I’d love to see a table that translates a momentum value into inches of penetration in ballistics gel.
By the way, when looking at the 300 WM vs 338 WM, the 338 WM comes out on top. I fudged the #’s such that the muzzle energy was roughly = between the two for an apples to apples compare.
300 Win Mag 338 WM
Bullet Weight 180 225
Caliber 0.308 0.338
Velocity 2950 2600
Sectional Density 0.271 0.281
Muzzle Energy (ft/lbs) 3479 3378
Momentum Value (lb/FPS) 75.9 83.6
Anyway, I found this an interesting way to get hard #’s that back up what we have been saying on this topic.
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 11:00:36 AM
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 05, 2011, 11:34:21 AM
Also, in reading these replies, it looks like many people are trying to decide on one caliber over another caliber.
To me that is a personal choice based on:
-comfort with recoil
-confidence in the rifle
-etc.
The more interesting question to answer (I think), is that if you hold cartridge constant, what is better, more mass or less mass?
It should be a given that, within the legal limits of the law, folks should shoot what they have and what they feel most confident in putting a bullet on target with. Once you make that call, what do you look at then? Mass, bullet construction, and if you are a long range shooter, trajectory.
:yeah: That is why I posted the question. I'm set on using my .30-06 (at least for now) and using it for both whitetail and elk. I have been shooting it for close to 15 years and am very confident with it. I was just pretty surprised at first when I saw guys using 120 grain bullets for elk, becasue I was previously in the mindset that heavier was better for bigger animals. And I've been toying with trying something besides the 165 grain Nosler balistic tips I currently use for both species. I've been shooting the balistic tip, because they are very accurate in my rifle, and while I have no complaints about there performance killing game, I also haven't really been blown away by their performance either. So that is why I've been thinking about trying out some different bullets and that inevitable leads to the question of how heavy of bullet should I use (and for the .30-06 there is a very wide range to choose from). So I decided to see how many other guys (if any) were using "lighter" bullets for elk and having success.
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
that said, I would never fail to endorse a guy using a 06' on elk, I would not sugest a B tip, but they have worked for a great many though.
Post by: Curly on August 05, 2011, 12:14:32 PM
Now, the article that was mentioned where the guy is using a .257 Weatherby.........I think he is making a mistake with using the 120 gr Partition (he should be using a bullet that will hold together better than a Partition will).
With the advent of bullets like Barnes TSX, the thinking of heavy for caliber bullets can be thrown out the window pretty much.
Post by: GoldTip on August 05, 2011, 12:17:57 PM
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 01:51:40 PM
if:
1. you decided to shoot a 30.06 Springfield because you have one, you like it, and it shoots well
-and-
2. You have tried 150, 165 and 180 grain bullets in a brand/style you feel is effective at killing, and found them all to group well from your gun.
-and-
3. You are targeting Elk.
What bullet would you shoot and why?
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 02:02:33 PM
Post by: Rob on August 05, 2011, 03:18:00 PM
I see the variables that you would be looking at, but what sways you one way or the other?
Post by: high country on August 05, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
Stretch the range over 500 and my rules change to highest bc premium I can find.
Post by: Rob on August 08, 2011, 09:08:45 AM
Here is my conclusion: In terms of Trajectory, BC is largely irrelevant in hunting situations if the shooter plans to shoot at distances under 350ish yards. Here is why I came to that conclusion. First the assumptions:
-I am holding MV constant at 2700 FPS.
-I am comparing two bullets, both in .308 caliber but with different BC’s
-I went with a heavy bullet as I figure this will have the worst trajectory data.
-I am taking bullet performance out of the equation for this compare (i.e. how well does the bullet hold together, how well does it expand, etc) I am only interested in seeing how BC impacts trajectory over distance.
So I am comparing a Barnes Solid in 220 grain/.308 caliber traveling 2700 FPS with a Sierra HPBT Matchking in 220 grains also traveling 2700 FPS.
-The Barnes has a BC of .305
-The Sierra has a BC of .629
See the table in the attachment below. (I ran these #’s in the phone app “shooter”) This table tells me that even though these two bullets are aerodynamically very different, they will shoot within 3 inches of each other out to 325 yards.
Now, in typing this up and looking at the numbers, I have just realized something very interesting (again, probably a penetrating insight into the obvious for everyone else, but this kinda stuff is new to me so humor me). This should have been very obvious to me, but it was not until I saw the #’s.
While the two bullets are pretty close from a trajectory view point, look at the velocity #’s! The poor BC bullet is moving 420 FPS slower at 325 yards than the good BC bullet! That is a 20% difference! This translates into a reduction of 841 foot pounds of energy, and a reduction of 13.2 lb/fps in momentum.
Now those are significant #’s…
So I guess I have revised my view after looking at this stuff.
When planning to shoot under 350ish yards:
1. Choose the heaviest bullet that shoots well for your gun
2. BC does not matter much when it comes to bullet drop at those ranges
3. BC does matter in terms of velocity which translates into energy, momentum, and penetration.
4. So pick the heaviest bullet with the best BC.
Post by: whacker1 on August 08, 2011, 10:14:25 AM
I asked about BC as I have been looking at this over the past couple months getting ready for a hunt in 2012. I have come to a conclusion that has kinda surprised me so I am trying to poke holes in my conclusion.
Here is my conclusion: In terms of Trajectory, BC is largely irrelevant in hunting situations if the shooter plans to shoot at distances under 350ish yards. Here is why I came to that conclusion. First the assumptions:
-I am holding MV constant at 2700 FPS.
-I am comparing two bullets, both in .308 caliber but with different BC’s
-I went with a heavy bullet as I figure this will have the worst trajectory data.
-I am taking bullet performance out of the equation for this compare (i.e. how well does the bullet hold together, how well does it expand, etc) I am only interested in seeing how BC impacts trajectory over distance.
So I am comparing a Barnes Solid in 220 grain/.308 caliber traveling 2700 FPS with a Sierra HPBT Matchking in 220 grains also traveling 2700 FPS.
-The Barnes has a BC of .305
-The Sierra has a BC of .629
See the table in the attachment below. (I ran these #’s in the phone app “shooter”) This table tells me that even though these two bullets are aerodynamically very different, they will shoot within 3 inches of each other out to 325 yards.
Now, in typing this up and looking at the numbers, I have just realized something very interesting (again, probably a penetrating insight into the obvious for everyone else, but this kinda stuff is new to me so humor me). This should have been very obvious to me, but it was not until I saw the #’s.
While the two bullets are pretty close from a trajectory view point, look at the velocity #’s! The poor BC bullet is moving 420 FPS slower at 325 yards than the good BC bullet! That is a 20% difference! This translates into a reduction of 841 foot pounds of energy, and a reduction of 13.2 lb/fps in momentum.
Now those are significant #’s…
So I guess I have revised my view after looking at this stuff.
When planning to shoot under 350ish yards:
1. Choose the heaviest bullet that shoots well for your gun
2. BC does not matter much when it comes to bullet drop at those ranges
3. BC does matter in terms of velocity which translates into energy, momentum, and penetration.
4. So pick the heaviest bullet with the best BC.
I agree with your outcome.
That is similar to what I learned in the last several years in picking bullets for 270 and 300 RUM. For the layperson, the Ballistic Coefficient is its ability to fly and how well as compared to another bullet. This took me quite awhile to understand and wrap my arms around, but to state in terms that most can understand. The better a bullet fly's - the better it will retain energy, retain velocity, and buck the wind. If you compare the ability for a round ball to do these three things as opposed to modern bullets, it becomes very obvious. The round ball loses velocity quickly, which results in the loss of energy. With it being a slower moving object and thus in the air longer, the wind will have more impact on it.
Post by: high country on August 08, 2011, 10:39:52 AM
Post by: Rob on August 08, 2011, 10:52:52 AM
Out to 250 it is not too big of a difference, but beyond that it is substantial.
I added some color to show where I start to worry.
Post by: Rob on August 08, 2011, 10:54:26 AM
but the drift should not be overlooked.
Post by: whacker1 on August 08, 2011, 10:55:49 AM
I still think energy loss is the bigger argument for a better BC bullet. at just 100 yards, you are loosing more than 10% of your energy when comparing these two bullets.
Now try it with a 35 mile our wind like you might run into in the high country or the plains.
Post by: Rob on August 08, 2011, 11:01:26 AM
Besides, I have convinced myself in the first run of the #'s that a better BC should not be overlooked.
But I would still choose a heavy bullet over a light one for shots under 350 yards based on penetration!
Post by: high country on August 08, 2011, 11:29:50 AM
Post by: Rob on August 08, 2011, 01:36:04 PM
don't lose sleep over the energy
Why do you not consider this? (honest question, not flippant)
Post by: whacker1 on August 08, 2011, 02:29:14 PM
don't lose sleep over the energy
Why do you not consider this? (honest question, not flippant)
I think he is saying that there is still 1000 ft lbs + of energy at 500 yards, so it shouldn't be an issue. :dunno: I wouldn't be concerned with that sort of energy at that distance. Which makes your 350 yard reference extremely reasonable for energy. With that said if both bullets shot equally at 100 and 200 yards for accuracy, I would still take the higher BC for confidence that the wind is that much less of a factor, and can you have too much energy at 350 yards with the loads we are talking about? I think not..... again my two cents on the subject. I haven't taken a long shot since I have done all the research. 40 yards with 168 grain berger in the neck of a whitetail, doesn't really matter what bullet you are shooting at that distance as long as you hit the neck.
Post by: high country on August 08, 2011, 03:09:49 PM
don't lose sleep over the energy
Why do you not consider this? (honest question, not flippant)
because there is no hunting bullet that you are going to use that is going to be a handicap in the energy dept. if you are shooting loaf of bread bullets you are not going to be shooting 500yds. if you are shooting a modern gun with modern sights and modern bullets at deer/elk sized targets your energy will be plenty heavy to make a bullet do its job. with there be a spray of blood on the opposite side after blowing the shoulder to smithereens?....maybe not, but you should be more worried about getting on target than how many foot pounds you lost in the last 12 feet......it matters not enough to worry about.
Post by: muzbuster on December 05, 2011, 07:50:50 AM
Post by: Huntbear on December 05, 2011, 08:05:45 AM
Post by: jyerxa on December 05, 2011, 12:49:44 PM