Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 07:45:57 AM
With regards to the greatly diminished early archery season, the reason I was given was that archers (18% of WA elk hunters) were taking 36% of the branch bulls taken during the year and it was seen as unfair to modern firearm elk hunters. They really wouldn't address whether the total number taken was equal to or less than quotas, or whether the ratio of bulls to cows was off as a result of the early season being longer before and such a larger percentage os branch bulls being taken. So, I'm unsatisfied that the reason our season was shortened was justified by actual management numbers, as opposed to wanting to placate a larger base of hunters, the modern guys. It is this archer's opinion, and not based on exact science, that the modern season could have been increased WITHOUT decreasing the archery season, thus giving a net increase of hunting opportunities instead of taking away from Peter to pay Paul. What they did, again in my opinion, was move hunting dates around to be more popular with a larger number of people.
It seems to me that the first thing the WDFW should be asking with regards to any of these seasons, including predator seasons, is "can we increase hunting opportunities without risking herd/species decline?" I don't believe this is yet in their vocabulary and it should be. As with our discussion on cougar management, why have seasons been shortened and weapons restrictions added for a population which, except in about 8 areas statewide, is above targeted levels? For healthy populations, the first question I would like to see is, "can we increase hunter opportunities here without jeopardizing herd/species numbers?". It only makes sense to me that this be asked for the benefit of the people who directly pay the most into our state wildlife system-WA's hunters and fishermen/women.
I will be sending my personal views to the department for their consideration before they make final decisions about the upcoming seasons. Any of you can do the same by sending a letter (most effective), or an email to the WDFW commissioners. Their email is:
commission@dfw.wa.gov
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 09:49:04 AM
Post by: buglebrush on August 24, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
Post by: Elkslayer on August 24, 2011, 02:15:06 PM
One thing that needs to be brought into this discussion: If you consider who these hunters are, it makes perfect sense that archery hunters score more bulls. Now, I know I am generalizing here, but if someone is going to be the roadhunter type which weapon is he most likely to use? Most archery hunters tend to really be into their sport, and put in the time needed to score on a bull. I am so sick of Washington's Retarded, Short seasons crowding everyone into the woods on the same weekend!!! :bash: :bash: It is my opinion that a longer season doesn't mean more days in the woods. For those of us that work a steady job, it simply means we have the freedom to work it into our schedule better. It also means less pressure by spreading hunters out over several weekends, thereby giving a much better experience even though I still can only take so many days off work. :twocents:
:yeah: I agree, I have friends and relatives that are Spokane Indian. Recently they did a study on there elk harvest. When they first opened up elk seasons on the reservation they had a 7-10 day season. The last three years they cut it back to 3-4days. They found that with the shorter season more hunters were in the woods those days and they were killing more elk. With more hunters in the woods the elk couldn't escape without running into another hunter. With a longer season all the hunters would not be in the woods at the same time, allowing the elk a better opportunity to escape.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 24, 2011, 02:24:30 PM
Who from the WDFW said that? I am curious as I brought the same thing up to both Dave Ware and Jerry Nelson, and they did not mention that as a reason.... wish they had as I have their figures from multiple previous seasons that shows our success rate compared to modern rifle...
Post by: bobcat on August 24, 2011, 02:27:49 PM
Post by: buglebrush on August 24, 2011, 02:31:41 PM
Seems to me that one of the reasons had to be the need to make room for moving the early muzzleloader deer season up by a week. That was one thing they did to try to improve muzzleloader seasons, but of course it took away from archery. They can't make everybody happy.
They could go a long ways towards making everyone happy by allowing us to hunt with various weapons and slant tags towards one or the other ala Idaho.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 02:39:33 PM
Seems to me that one of the reasons had to be the need to make room for moving the early muzzleloader deer season up by a week. That was one thing they did to try to improve muzzleloader seasons, but of course it took away from archery. They can't make everybody happy.
No, according to the head of game management, they took away days from archery because archers took too many branch bull in comparison to modern shooters. Moving the ML season was just a result of that. And, yes, they can make everyone happy. The elk numbers tell us that they didn't need to take anything away from archery to add to modern. One problem is the mentality of DFW that there need to be trade-offs, even when their data says otherwise. It's just like the cougar seasons. They shortened the season and added firearm restrictions when in almost every part of the state, the harvest of cougars was at or below management goals. We need to have a DFW that has "how can we improve hunter opportunities" as their first thought when changes are made, not "they have enough of a season. They don't need any more"..
Post by: buglebrush on August 24, 2011, 02:41:09 PM
Seems to me that one of the reasons had to be the need to make room for moving the early muzzleloader deer season up by a week. That was one thing they did to try to improve muzzleloader seasons, but of course it took away from archery. They can't make everybody happy.
No, according to the head of game management, they took away days from archery because archers took too many branch bull in comparison to modern shooters. Moving the ML season was just a result of that. And, yes, they can make everyone happy. The elk numbers tell us that they didn't need to take anything away from archery to add to modern. One problem is the mentality of DFW that there need to be trade-offs, even when their data says otherwise. It's just like the cougar seasons. They shortened the season and added firearm restrictions when in almost every part of the state, the harvest of cougars was at or below management goals. We need to have a DFW that has "how can we improve hunter opportunities" as their first thought when changes are made, not "they have enough of a season. They don't need any more"..
Amen, Amen, Amen!!!
Post by: colockumelk on August 24, 2011, 03:28:11 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 03:33:27 PM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
I understand the sentiment but completely disagree. We have to take the high road, do what we're told, and then they have nothing but explaining to do to us. As a group, Hunting-Washington is itself quite influential. Washington for Wildlife is also pushing every button we can push and reminding them every day how many people we represent and what for what we stand. Keep reporting. Join WFW, pay for your membership, and get involved in a committee which is important to your hunting passion. If you love to hunt, fight for it.
Post by: The100Road on August 24, 2011, 03:47:52 PM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
:yeah:
Did anyone mention that There would be more bulls for all seasons to harvest if the tribes would stop slaughtering them all?
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 03:49:13 PM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
:yeah:
Did anyone mention that There would be more bulls for all seasons to harvest if the tribes would stop slaughtering them all?
Really? That's not part of this thread. Please drop it.
Post by: colockumelk on August 24, 2011, 05:20:46 PM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
I understand the sentiment but completely disagree. We have to take the high road, do what we're told, and then they have nothing but explaining to do to us. As a group, Hunting-Washington is itself quite influential. Washington for Wildlife is also pushing every button we can push and reminding them every day how many people we represent and what for what we stand. Keep reporting. Join WFW, pay for your membership, and get involved in a committee which is important to your hunting passion. If you love to hunt, fight for it.
Pianoman you are 100%. I was just venting and blowing off steam. I would love to joing WFW and have already done alot of that stuff on the side. WOuld be nice to have some help. But.... I live in AL and am about to move to NY (In the Army) so I can't really give any time to WFW. However.... if you need me to do research and/or write a research paper I would be more than willing to do that.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 06:20:22 AM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
I understand the sentiment but completely disagree. We have to take the high road, do what we're told, and then they have nothing but explaining to do to us. As a group, Hunting-Washington is itself quite influential. Washington for Wildlife is also pushing every button we can push and reminding them every day how many people we represent and what for what we stand. Keep reporting. Join WFW, pay for your membership, and get involved in a committee which is important to your hunting passion. If you love to hunt, fight for it.
Pianoman you are 100%. I was just venting and blowing off steam. I would love to joing WFW and have already done alot of that stuff on the side. WOuld be nice to have some help. But.... I live in AL and am about to move to NY (In the Army) so I can't really give any time to WFW. However.... if you need me to do research and/or write a research paper I would be more than willing to do that.
Have fun at Ft. Drum. Not a bad post at all, especially now that we're getting toward deer season and the beautiful fall. If you need someone to hunt with, my brother is in Syracuse and his sons are grown and they all hunt. Once you get settled PM me and we'll hood you up. Hoo-ah.
Post by: dreamingbig on August 25, 2011, 06:25:57 AM
I am a good law abiding citizen. I have been an avocate for accurately reporting your harvest. If this is the reason why the shortened our seasons because we have been accurately reporting our harvests then why report anymore. Well I can tell you that from now on I will ALWAYS report, "NO HARVEST" because if me being a good citizen means they are gonna use my data to take away more opportunities and more of my season well then the WDFW can kiss my rear end and just lost my accurate harvest reporting. I would suggest more people do the same.
I may have done this already as have other arrow flingers I know. ;) Kiss my arse indeed!
Post by: Matt on August 25, 2011, 08:22:31 AM
We are the only western state that has a short early archey elk season but we also have a better late season than those other western states.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 08:58:26 AM
Post by: Matt on August 25, 2011, 09:51:42 AM
we lost an entire week since 2005.
Deer season yes not elk. Elk was 14 days now it is 13. It was 1-14 then went to 8-21st then the 13 days following labor day
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 09:55:29 AM
we lost an entire week since 2005.
Deer season yes not elk. Elk was 14 days now it is 13.
Not sure if you're talking about a specific unit that has wonky seasons, but the WDFW game manager acknowledged to me on Tuesday evening that early archery elk used to be Sept. 1-21 for most of the state and is now Sept. 6-18.
Post by: dreamingbig on August 25, 2011, 10:23:21 AM
Pianoman we lost 1 day of elk hunting and we still get 2 weekends. As for deer hunting the reason sighted was to make room for the muzzy's last week in September so they don't overlap with their elk season.
I thought it was to have zero overlap with the modern firearm special bull elk tags that are the last 5 days or so of Sept. They hopped at the chance to create more revenue; they through the "you can't hunt during the peak rut (last half of Sept)" arguement right out the window which is the crutch they used to lean on.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 10:42:16 AM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 25, 2011, 11:08:49 AM
2000 we had 1-14 Sept http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00478/wdfw00478.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00478/wdfw00478.pdf)
Pianoman,
I was told that our seasons went to the rotationg date because of 2 factors, one is Muzzie guys start hunting now on the 24th for deer.... and 2 was the Special "rifle" permit hunts go into the woods the day after archery closes... The whole thing about us killing more big bulls.... BS!
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 11:11:41 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 11:32:36 AM
2005 we had the 8-21st http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00473/wdfw00473.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00473/wdfw00473.pdf)
2000 we had 1-14 Sept http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00478/wdfw00478.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00478/wdfw00478.pdf)
Pianoman,
I was told that our seasons went to the rotationg date because of 2 factors, one is Muzzie guys start hunting now on the 24th for deer.... and 2 was the Special "rifle" permit hunts go into the woods the day after archery closes... The whole thing about us killing more big bulls.... BS!
You're absolutely correct. We lost a week total only when including the late season. Sorry for the misinformation.
Post by: Matt on August 25, 2011, 01:10:34 PM
Post by: Gamblin Guy on August 25, 2011, 01:36:58 PM
Go back and search for the threads regarding the influence of one member on the game management advisory committee or whatever it's called and you'll find the reason why the archery hunters got screwed again, money talks....
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 01:38:06 PM
FYI I hunt Ryderwood in the late season and they took away a week, so that may account for the difference we're seeing.
Post by: Snapshot on August 25, 2011, 01:56:49 PM
No, according to the head of game management, they took away days from archery because archers took too many branch bull in comparison to modern shooters. Moving the ML season was just a result of that.
I think they told it to you bass-ackwards, P-Man. The so-called "branched-antler" discrepancy was called a "mature bull" discrepancy back when they were in the process of changing the seasons around (late 2008 & early 2009). It was then and is now a smoke screen to get to their end game; elk rut permits for modern users (the biggest income-generating group) and better muzzleloader dates (favored weapon of the Big Game Manager).
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 01:58:41 PM
Post by: buglebrush on August 25, 2011, 02:14:32 PM
Nope. 3 total. It is still a loss either way but not extreme. I think that losing the last week of September deer effects more than anything. We have a total of days 29 in the woods on the East side and 36 on the West for archery elk, that's more days than I have vacation time. Do we really want to fight this battle for more or be happy with what we have.
I mentioned this earlier, but will again. I grew up hunting elk in Idaho, and with the whole month of september to bowhunt the odds were much higher of picking a weekend to hunt my spot when nobody else was there. Cram everyone into two weekends like WA. and it is twice as likely you will be sharing your spots on any given weekend in season. :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: colockumelk on August 25, 2011, 06:12:23 PM
We are the only western state that has a short early archey elk season but we also have a better late season than those other western states.
IMHO the late season sucks. You cant really call. Also your above statement is slightly false since most western states you get to hunt with multiple weapons so you do get a late season, its called the rifle season.
Post by: colockumelk on August 25, 2011, 08:16:50 PM
Nope. 3 total. It is still a loss either way but not extreme. I think that losing the last week of September deer effects more than anything. We have a total of days 29 in the woods on the East side and 36 on the West for archery elk, that's more days than I have vacation time. Do we really want to fight this battle for more or be happy with what we have.
This is the type of attitude which will guarantee that we lose more and more hunting privileges. This type of attitude led to the loss of hunting branch bulls on the east side forever (unless you draw a permit), the loss of hunting cows during the ML season on the east side, the loss of a late ML season on the east side, the shorter archery seasons, the loss of hunting cows in the Colockum during archery season, not being able to shoot cows in the Bumping an the Nile during archery season, and the Colockum going to true spike only. I could continue for awhile.
The point is, is that this type of attitude leads to less and less hunting for us. Too many people say "Well it can't get anyworse, we should be thankfull for what we have." Then what happens? They take more hunting from us then what do people say. "Well it can't get any worse, we should be thankfull for what we have." Then what happens? They take more hunting from us, then what do people say........ You all get the idea.
Its the attitude that me and Pianoman have that will hopefully stop the WDFW and hopefully get back some of our hunting our at the very least keep them from taking more opportunities. I don't mean to single you out Matt. You are definately not the only one who thinks like this. Most people think like this. You just happened to provide me with a really good quote that represents this type of attitude.
Post by: blacktail luv on August 25, 2011, 08:19:59 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 25, 2011, 08:40:03 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 25, 2011, 09:04:13 PM
I don't think it's people's attitudes, it's that we don't have the number of animals to justify the seasons you all are wishing we had. The WDFW doesn't give us shorter seasons because they don't like us- they do it to control the number of animals harvested. In the online survey, my comments were to do away with most antlerless deer and elk general seasons. And, to shorten or eliminate late archery and muzzleloader general seasons.
Bobcat you know me I agree with you on why many seasons have been taken. But... some of the things they have taken from us are BS and havn't helped at all. Such as taking the antlerless hunts from the Bowhunters in the Colockum. Hasn't done anything to help that herd out. NADA!! I understand why alot of seasons have been taken from us. But.... at the same time we still need to fight the WDFW tooth and nail on stuff. All they do is take, take, take and never give anything back. If we just roll over and give in we take it in the shorts every time. But.... I have seen it where the WDFW WILL give in to our requests if we yell loud enough.
Post by: buglebrush on August 25, 2011, 09:17:05 PM
Pianoman we lost 1 day of elk hunting and we still get 2 weekends. As for deer hunting the reason sighted was to make room for the muzzy's last week in September so they don't overlap with their elk season.
We are the only western state that has a short early archey elk season but we also have a better late season than those other western states.
I just can't quite let this rest :) Idaho also has a great late season. All of september to bowhunt.....some in october to gun hunt....and bowhunting again in December.
Post by: Gamblin Guy on August 25, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 25, 2011, 09:26:58 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 25, 2011, 09:31:37 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 25, 2011, 09:57:56 PM
If you showed up to their meeting in your helicopter, you'd probably get everything you ask for.
That would be totally worth the 30 years I would spend in Leavenworth. (The military's highest level prison.) :chuckle:
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on August 26, 2011, 06:28:13 AM
Post by: bullcanyon on August 26, 2011, 09:35:53 AM
Post by: buckfvr on August 26, 2011, 01:24:21 PM
We are in an ongoing fight to maintain what we have, getting conditions restored likely wont happen. Now hunting on the other hand, is cyclic....it will get better, and it will get worse at times. Seeing what Ive seen in my time ( 57 yrs old ), I seriously doubt conditions will ever get appreciably better. However, the fight rages on.....never stop hounding the commissioners....WDFW has to know they dont have us all duped.....many of us see the truth. Weigh in with your displeasures with their decisions............give them your thoughts...all the time.
Post by: huntnnw on August 26, 2011, 11:06:18 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 27, 2011, 05:21:42 AM
....People think we can sustain over the counter branch bull permits for the eastside for anyone who wants to fork over $40 for 'em? really? Wow...
This is the type of attitude which will guarantee that we lose more and more hunting privileges. This type of attitude led to the loss of hunting branch bulls on the east side forever (unless you draw a permit),......
I don't think it's people's attitudes, it's that we don't have the number of animals to justify the seasons you all are wishing we had. The WDFW doesn't give us shorter seasons because they don't like us- they do it to control the number of animals harvested. In the online survey, my comments were to do away with most antlerless deer and elk general seasons. And, to shorten or eliminate late archery and muzzleloader general seasons.
Bingo.
This may or may not be apart of the conversation but I would rather have much more liberal seasons if several hunts or units were switched to draw only. I would rather have a quality hunt every other year than a sea of half-hearted jack@$$es every year. Definitely would address some of the over harvest issues at hand. I know this is a bow hunting forum but that thread about "have you ever been shot at in the woods?" also comes to my mind. I have hunted several of the western states and I don't hear of that going on as much as in WA. I think people get too attached to "their" hunting spots on public land and forget that game animals are a public resource belonging to all of us. :twocents:
Post by: colockumelk on August 27, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
Now why are we as hunters doing better and better? Our gear is alot better. Plain and simple, with the GPS guys are going deeper and deeper. Our archery gear and muzzle loader gear is better, more accurate and easier to use. We have better gear that keeps us cooler, warmer and dryer so we stay out longer. More and more people have 4wd vehicles and ATV's meaning we can cover more ground, better optics to see better. Also more and more people call and the calls are better with videos to help us out so we can call better making us more effective. There are alot more articles about hunting with tips and techniques, as well as videos to help us out in hunting.
That and a big thing is that we have less areas to hunt so we are more crowded into areas making it so animals have no place to escape to meaning we kill more and more animals. The WDFW has only one way to control the amount of animals harvested and that is with antler restrictions and season length and timing. The other big impact is the fact that there are far more predators today than we had 15 years ago. A bull calf killed by a cougar is the same thing in the long run as if that cougar killed a 350" bull elk.
We need to offer the WDFW stiff resistance any time and everytime they try and take a season away from us. Why??? Because there is more than one way to increase the numbers of elk and deer other than taking opportunity away from us. They could issue more hound tags for predators or fight to bring back baiting for bears etc. The WDFW wants us to believe that we are the only key to conservation. But that is COMPLETE BS!!!! The WDFW can do a better job at conservation without taking more and more away from us. We need to stand firm and stand tall to make them do other stuff for conservation other than take away more and more opportunity.
Post by: Yak-NDN on August 27, 2011, 09:58:41 AM
If you must know (and I'll make this as simple as possible) We lose more and more of our seasons because of this. The WDFW determines about how many animals in PMU (Primary Managment Unit) that it wants harvested. So they then break it down by user group. Modern gets 65%, Archery gets 20% and Muzzle Loaders get 15% of the harvest. Then they monitor the harvest reports for three years. (Season setting process) After three years if one user group is harvesting more than its fair share they shorten the season by a couple of days.
Now why are we as hunters doing better and better? Our gear is alot better. Plain and simple, with the GPS guys are going deeper and deeper. Our archery gear and muzzle loader gear is better, more accurate and easier to use. We have better gear that keeps us cooler, warmer and dryer so we stay out longer. More and more people have 4wd vehicles and ATV's meaning we can cover more ground, better optics to see better. Also more and more people call and the calls are better with videos to help us out so we can call better making us more effective. There are alot more articles about hunting with tips and techniques, as well as videos to help us out in hunting.
That and a big thing is that we have less areas to hunt so we are more crowded into areas making it so animals have no place to escape to meaning we kill more and more animals. The WDFW has only one way to control the amount of animals harvested and that is with antler restrictions and season length and timing. The other big impact is the fact that there are far more predators today than we had 15 years ago. A bull calf killed by a cougar is the same thing in the long run as if that cougar killed a 350" bull elk.
We need to offer the WDFW stiff resistance any time and everytime they try and take a season away from us. Why??? Because there is more than one way to increase the numbers of elk and deer other than taking opportunity away from us. They could issue more hound tags for predators or fight to bring back baiting for bears etc. The WDFW wants us to believe that we are the only key to conservation. But that is COMPLETE BS!!!! The WDFW can do a better job at conservation without taking more and more away from us. We need to stand firm and stand tall to make them do other stuff for conservation other than take away more and more opportunity.
I don't consider myself one of the people that piss everyone off and take advantage and kill numerous bull elk because I can. But clock what you are saying the state is trying to do is exactly what most non Tribal members what to do to me. I don't like to see people killing elk because they can you know how I stand on that.
Post by: colockumelk on August 27, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 27, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
Now why are we as hunters doing better and better? Our gear is alot better. Plain and simple, with the GPS guys are going deeper and deeper. Our archery gear and muzzle loader gear is better, more accurate and easier to use. We have better gear that keeps us cooler, warmer and dryer so we stay out longer. More and more people have 4wd vehicles and ATV's meaning we can cover more ground, better optics to see better. Also more and more people call and the calls are better with videos to help us out so we can call better making us more effective. There are alot more articles about hunting with tips and techniques, as well as videos to help us out in hunting.
Yep. From a game management standpoint, I'm sure the WDFW (and every other state) likes it like this. If a specific unit only has the capacity for 60 animals to be harvested, there's much less uncertainty giving out 100 tags to hunters who have a 60% harvest rate as opposed to giving out 67 tags when you know 90% will harvest an animal. Sucks that 33 less people will get to hunt, but the department will have a better idea of whats going on in the woods, and those 67 will likely have a more enjoyable hunt.
That and a big thing is that we have less areas to hunt so we are more crowded into areas making it so animals have no place to escape to meaning we kill more and more animals. The WDFW has only one way to control the amount of animals harvested and that is with antler restrictions and season length and timing. The other big impact is the fact that there are far more predators today than we had 15 years ago. A bull calf killed by a cougar is the same thing in the long run as if that cougar killed a 350" bull elk.
:dunno: Road closures??? Draw only?? Those don't reduce harvest??
We need to offer the WDFW stiff resistance any time and everytime they try and take a season away from us. Why??? Because there is more than one way to increase the numbers of elk and deer other than taking opportunity away from us. They could issue more hound tags for predators or fight to bring back baiting for bears etc. The WDFW wants us to believe that we are the only key to conservation. But that is COMPLETE BS!!!! The WDFW can do a better job at conservation without taking more and more away from us. We need to stand firm and stand tall to make them do other stuff for conservation other than take away more and more opportunity.I agree... Wolves, cougars, renegotiate the Indian treaties, etc. These and many more reasons why I don't covet your plight in WA. The state is subject to a big, liberal mind F* that is all about giving land back to the loser of a war and apologizing for America's greatness. I commend those of you going to these meetings and letting your voice be heard.
Post by: colockumelk on August 27, 2011, 06:18:11 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 27, 2011, 11:03:16 PM
Post by: cryfowl on August 27, 2011, 11:54:38 PM
Post by: bowelkaholic on August 28, 2011, 09:06:28 AM
Post by: iRem on August 28, 2011, 10:17:37 AM
Post by: colockumelk on August 28, 2011, 06:29:46 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 29, 2011, 07:44:38 AM
I just went through a mandatory Bowhunters education course down here in Alabama, so I can legally hunt with a bow in New York. That class was really good. I enjoyed it and I learned a decent amount. I think that Washington should follow suite with other states and require that anyone under the age of 40 or 50 be required to attend a bowhunters education course in order to hunt with a bow in this state. That would weed out alot of the undesirables in our group.
I've heard this before but I'm hesitant to request more regulations. Do you think it would garner much support to have one be voluntary or do you think the "undesirables" would just continue to ignore it? To you, what are the biggest benefits of the program you just completed?
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 29, 2011, 01:29:41 PM
I just went through a mandatory Bowhunters education course down here in Alabama, so I can legally hunt with a bow in New York. That class was really good. I enjoyed it and I learned a decent amount. I think that Washington should follow suite with other states and require that anyone under the age of 40 or 50 be required to attend a bowhunters education course in order to hunt with a bow in this state. That would weed out alot of the undesirables in our group.
I've heard this before but I'm hesitant to request more regulations. Do you think it would garner much support to have one be voluntary or do you think the "undesirables" would just continue to ignore it? To you, what are the biggest benefits of the program you just completed?
WE are one of the few states left that does not require it. Idaho does and it is mandatory for first time bowhunters only.... I am all for it in this State... I think you will see it come to fruition in the next few years... ;)
Post by: colockumelk on August 29, 2011, 03:35:13 PM
1.) They taught a class on parts and pieces of a bow, how to care for your bow and travel with your bow and taught how to properly tune your bow and also the importance of doing so.
2.) They inspected all our bows for safety etc. We then shot all of our bows and had an accuracy test. Had to hit deer vitals 3 out of 4 times at unknown distances from 20-35 yds.
3.) We got a class on the different types of tree stands and how to properly use them. We learned how to properly wear a safety harness and learned how to get in and out of a treestand without falling. We then had to fall out of the tree stand and get back in the treestand (The stand was 4 feet off the ground not 20)
4.) We got a class on what ethical shots were and when not to take a shot. We then got a class on the steps to take once you have made the shot until you start tracking the deer. Also how to tell where you shot by the reaction of the deer and the hair and blood etc.
5.) We then got a class on following blood trails and there was a mock blood trail for us to follow.
6.) We then got a class on what to expect for out of state hunts and how to prepare for them. Ironically enough I met one guy who has hunted up in the Rimrock GMU. Most of the instructors go to Idaho and hunt elk every year. I also learned that expandables are not that popular down here.
7.) The last class was about wilderness survival, map reading, gps usage and first aid in the field.
Oh we also got a free lunch that was deer burgers and deer hotdogs with chips pop etc. Overall it was a really good class. It was fun and really laid back. I did learn alot and I feel it is one more piece of info i can use. The total cost was $45. My bow hunter safety card is good in every state and in Canada.
Post by: bowhuntersd on August 29, 2011, 04:36:49 PM
In my opinion I feel their jacking us around again to caiter to the massive riffle hunting population $$$$$. This is obvious with the 26 new Sept. riffle tags given out.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 30, 2011, 09:31:17 AM
Pianoman at the end of this post I'll list what we learned. I think it would strengthen our community. Yes we would probably lose about 10% of our numbers but we would lose the 10% that shouldn't be carrying a bow during the season anyways. We would be a stronger and more ethical community. For people who are serious bowhunters and do their own research probably about 75% of the stuff taught will be a review. But for the people who are not as serious and don't do much research it will make them a much better/safer/more ethical bowhunter. I say we would lose at least 10% because they are the ones who are not all that serious about bowhunting and would say *censored* it and feel its a huge pain in the rear and go back to gun hunting. It would separate the bowhunters from the guys who just hunt with a bow. On the plus side not only would we lose the "less dedicated" or less desirables all that would attend these courses would learn something and would get better at their craft. I know I do ALOT of research and I still learned stuff. Here is a rundown of how the course I attended in Alabama went. Now granted since it was in Alabama it was a little bit treestand heavy so I'm sure a WA based one would be structured slightly different.
1.) They taught a class on parts and pieces of a bow, how to care for your bow and travel with your bow and taught how to properly tune your bow and also the importance of doing so.
2.) They inspected all our bows for safety etc. We then shot all of our bows and had an accuracy test. Had to hit deer vitals 3 out of 4 times at unknown distances from 20-35 yds.
3.) We got a class on the different types of tree stands and how to properly use them. We learned how to properly wear a safety harness and learned how to get in and out of a treestand without falling. We then had to fall out of the tree stand and get back in the treestand (The stand was 4 feet off the ground not 20)
4.) We got a class on what ethical shots were and when not to take a shot. We then got a class on the steps to take once you have made the shot until you start tracking the deer. Also how to tell where you shot by the reaction of the deer and the hair and blood etc.
5.) We then got a class on following blood trails and there was a mock blood trail for us to follow.
6.) We then got a class on what to expect for out of state hunts and how to prepare for them. Ironically enough I met one guy who has hunted up in the Rimrock GMU. Most of the instructors go to Idaho and hunt elk every year. I also learned that expandables are not that popular down here.
7.) The last class was about wilderness survival, map reading, gps usage and first aid in the field.
Oh we also got a free lunch that was deer burgers and deer hotdogs with chips pop etc. Overall it was a really good class. It was fun and really laid back. I did learn alot and I feel it is one more piece of info i can use. The total cost was $45. My bow hunter safety card is good in every state and in Canada.
Thanks for the info, Colockum. I'm all for good ethics and increased effectiveness afield. I just wish there were some way to reward bow hunters for taking this course voluntarily, like special hunts or dates open only to graduates, much like the MH program has. I suppose that sooner rather than later this will be required. But, it would be nice to see people do it on their own and it would be a measure of their commitment to ethics and archery as a whole.
Post by: Matt on August 30, 2011, 03:36:57 PM
Nope. 3 total. It is still a loss either way but not extreme. I think that losing the last week of September deer effects more than anything. We have a total of days 29 in the woods on the East side and 36 on the West for archery elk, that's more days than I have vacation time. Do we really want to fight this battle for more or be happy with what we have.
This is the type of attitude which will guarantee that we lose more and more hunting privileges. This type of attitude led to the loss of hunting branch bulls on the east side forever (unless you draw a permit), the loss of hunting cows during the ML season on the east side, the loss of a late ML season on the east side, the shorter archery seasons, the loss of hunting cows in the Colockum during archery season, not being able to shoot cows in the Bumping an the Nile during archery season, and the Colockum going to true spike only. I could continue for awhile.
The point is, is that this type of attitude leads to less and less hunting for us. Too many people say "Well it can't get anyworse, we should be thankfull for what we have." Then what happens? They take more hunting from us then what do people say. "Well it can't get any worse, we should be thankfull for what we have." Then what happens? They take more hunting from us, then what do people say........ You all get the idea.
Its the attitude that me and Pianoman have that will hopefully stop the WDFW and hopefully get back some of our hunting our at the very least keep them from taking more opportunities. I don't mean to single you out Matt. You are definately not the only one who thinks like this. Most people think like this. You just happened to provide me with a really good quote that represents this type of attitude.
Horse pooey. Not only do we have to defend out allocation of time with WDFW, but also the gun hunters who want our time restricted and now the movement from some trad guys to split it so they have their own season. Trust me I don't want to lose any more days and I do my share of rallying. The key is not to fight so much but to unite and present proposals that are a win win. Something well thought out that they cannot dispute nor deny. Listening to folks turns into a big whine session and those guys listening have an easy time defending their decision.
The ultimate goal is to sustain a herd so that we can continue hunting. There is no way to please everyone, especially when they have to consider the general public that doesn't look at hunting as a necessity. With the initiative process we could lose hunting all together if it was ever put to a vote. There are no truely correct harvest numbers nor is there an exact count of the populations. Everything is a guess. But we can all agree that there is over crowding while out hunting. At least with archery and rifle. So how do we balance a healthy herd and make a good majority of the hunters happy?
By the way when it comes to a bowhunters course I am at the head of the line of supporters. I can't go into an archery shop this time of year because of all those that think they can bowhunt and are buying their first bow this week or just pulled it out and found out the string has broke.....etc. This is a sport of skill and detication not something that looks cool and easy on tv.
Post by: colockumelk on August 30, 2011, 04:27:08 PM
Post by: Snapshot on September 03, 2011, 12:40:27 PM
... and now the movement from some trad guys to split it so they have their own season.
Can you please send me a PM and direct me to some of those guys? I'd like to know exactly what (beyond talking about it around a campfire) has been, or is being, done to advance such an idea.
Post by: colockumelk on September 03, 2011, 10:43:42 PM
Post by: Snapshot on September 05, 2011, 07:37:34 AM
Post by: JLS on September 05, 2011, 08:29:48 AM
Pianoman at the end of this post I'll list what we learned. I think it would strengthen our community. Yes we would probably lose about 10% of our numbers but we would lose the 10% that shouldn't be carrying a bow during the season anyways. We would be a stronger and more ethical community. For people who are serious bowhunters and do their own research probably about 75% of the stuff taught will be a review. But for the people who are not as serious and don't do much research it will make them a much better/safer/more ethical bowhunter. I say we would lose at least 10% because they are the ones who are not all that serious about bowhunting and would say *censored* it and feel its a huge pain in the rear and go back to gun hunting. It would separate the bowhunters from the guys who just hunt with a bow. On the plus side not only would we lose the "less dedicated" or less desirables all that would attend these courses would learn something and would get better at their craft. I know I do ALOT of research and I still learned stuff. Here is a rundown of how the course I attended in Alabama went. Now granted since it was in Alabama it was a little bit treestand heavy so I'm sure a WA based one would be structured slightly different.
1.) They taught a class on parts and pieces of a bow, how to care for your bow and travel with your bow and taught how to properly tune your bow and also the importance of doing so.
2.) They inspected all our bows for safety etc. We then shot all of our bows and had an accuracy test. Had to hit deer vitals 3 out of 4 times at unknown distances from 20-35 yds.
3.) We got a class on the different types of tree stands and how to properly use them. We learned how to properly wear a safety harness and learned how to get in and out of a treestand without falling. We then had to fall out of the tree stand and get back in the treestand (The stand was 4 feet off the ground not 20)
4.) We got a class on what ethical shots were and when not to take a shot. We then got a class on the steps to take once you have made the shot until you start tracking the deer. Also how to tell where you shot by the reaction of the deer and the hair and blood etc.
5.) We then got a class on following blood trails and there was a mock blood trail for us to follow.
6.) We then got a class on what to expect for out of state hunts and how to prepare for them. Ironically enough I met one guy who has hunted up in the Rimrock GMU. Most of the instructors go to Idaho and hunt elk every year. I also learned that expandables are not that popular down here.
7.) The last class was about wilderness survival, map reading, gps usage and first aid in the field.
Oh we also got a free lunch that was deer burgers and deer hotdogs with chips pop etc. Overall it was a really good class. It was fun and really laid back. I did learn alot and I feel it is one more piece of info i can use. The total cost was $45. My bow hunter safety card is good in every state and in Canada.
Thanks for the info, Colockum. I'm all for good ethics and increased effectiveness afield. I just wish there were some way to reward bow hunters for taking this course voluntarily, like special hunts or dates open only to graduates, much like the MH program has. I suppose that sooner rather than later this will be required. But, it would be nice to see people do it on their own and it would be a measure of their commitment to ethics and archery as a whole.
I would fully support a mandatory bowhunter ed. Montana requires it, and I learned a lot from it.